Ted Kluck Interview

life -changing radio 760 a .m. WV ne Welcome to no compromise radio a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston No compromise radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing

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Here's our host pastor Mike Abendroth Well, it's good to be back in the studio today.

No compromise radio. You can always access our website at no compromise radio .com

Typically we have a format for the week Mondays. It's usually a tape sermon that I preach at the church

Tuesday I talk with pastor Steve issues in a local church Wednesday We talk about books some books to read some books to burn

Thursday we talk about current issues in evangelicalism and then Fridays is kind of mystery

Friday In other words, I just talk about what I want to talk about and today It should be Wednesday because we are going to talk live with Ted cluck

He's an author and a very excellent author I might add and he's written three books that I'd like to talk about today the reason for sports

Why we're not emergent and why we love the church Ted. Are you online?

Hey, I'm here. It's great to be here. All right. Are you calling my talking to you from Michigan? Yeah, that's right

I'm here in rainy cold, Michigan. Yikes. Well, I have to make a disclaimer first I'm a University of Nebraska Cornhusker Hey, that's great, man

You know, Nebraska every college football fan kind of has their their teams and then there's their team on the side I've always loved the

Cornhusker. So have you watched what's happening with Turner Gill at all Ted? No, I haven't what's going on Well Turner is a football coach and he is coaching for Buffalo Now he was playing for Tom Osborne and there's some controversy surrounding

Turner Gill and did he get the Auburn job or not? And why should he? Have gotten the job.

He's married to a white lady, but he's a very firm evangelical Christian and he just Didn't want to answer any of the questions just said

I'm glad to be at Buffalo and I'll just keep coaching while I can Yeah, he's done a great job with that Buffalo team, you know, he's really kind of put them on the map.

So definitely Definitely having success where he is. No doubt about that Well Ted you want to talk about your reason for sports books first or what would you like to do?

I'd like to have the listeners get a just an overview of who you are and why you're writing and and Maybe tell us why you wrote the book

Yeah, that would be great. I Am a sports writer. I guess my first three books were on sports

My first book was a book called facing Tyson 15 fighters 15 stories We're interviewed a bunch of guys that fought

Mike Tyson the boxer Then I wrote about pro football a year that I spent playing actually and in an arena league called paper tiger

Then I wrote another book about college football and then kind of shifted gears into writing about the church

I wrote a book called why we're not emergent by two guys who should be that was kind of our Entree into the into the

Christian publishing world and and then the reason for sports which just came out about a month ago is a

Collection of essays really on on different issues with sports how we can learn to honor and glorify and enjoy

God through our sport Well, one of the things I liked in your new book on the reason for sports subtitle a

Christian fan I can't even see it It's hard to get through that I think if you've read my book why we love the church

I go on and on about how I hate the word manifesto So it was a real it was kind of a real reach for me to let the publisher put

Manifesto, and I don't think you like the word revolutionary either. Do you know

I don't that's another another word You'll never hopefully find it in a title of a textbook. Give me some words.

Never give me some words you do like oh Man, I like a lot of words, you know pretty much all the rest of them so Love the love the gospel for example

Hopefully that comes through on all these books even the sports books and hopefully even the sports books that I wrote for secular houses people

Could see a whiff of Christ in those books. That would be my my hope at least well, I've read all three of these books and they're excellent books and Two of them you've co -written with Kevin de

Young and I like it that you have different styles yet You're talking about the same theme since we're in New England Ted Tell us a little bit about Tom Brady and you mentioned in your book

Is this all there is in chapter 6 the new book the reason for sports Yeah, give us an overview there regarding Solomon Ecclesiastes and the whole

Tom Brady 60 minutes issue Yeah, yeah, that was a just one of these great poignant athlete interviews

You know, I think if you spend any time around sports and myself as a sports writer over the years you you realize that athletes probably because they have to perfect the art of talking without saying anything and You know, it's rare when an athlete comes on an interview program that you know

There are a couple of references to these these types of shows in the book Ricky Williams is another athlete that I've loved hearing interviewed over the years, but they were interviewing

Tom Brady and you know Super successful guy great -looking guys got everything under the sun really fame and fortune and women and all the rest

And he told the story of you know Standing on the field after the Super Bowl and the confetti is raining down and you know

He's just vanquished everything in his past as a pro quarterback and he said something to the effect of is this all there is you?

know Is this all it's gonna feel like and I think any of us regardless of our walks of life

Whether we go into work at a cubicle or we go and throw footballs in front, you know 80 ,000 people on a

Sunday afternoon. I think we can all kind of relate to that feeling, you know people say the only thing worse than Not living your dreams is living your dreams and you know for a guy like that to come to the end of the road

Professionally and and still wonder, you know still wonder is this all there is to life. I think there's great richness in that moment for us as Christians and a great chance to sort of talk about finding our

Identity and our hope and our happiness and Christ Well, that's a great point lots of people around here in New England.

We're talking about that You can have everything fame and fortune and money and women Etc. But if you are not forgiven if you have not been redeemed from above you are going to feel that Solomonic emptiness and you quote

Ecclesiastes 6 in the book I have seen another evil under the Sun and it weighs heavily on men

God gives a man wealth possessions and honor so that he lacks nothing as our desires, but God does not

Enable him to enjoy them and a stranger enjoys them instead. This is meaningless a grievous evil

I thought boy you hit that right on the head. Tell me a little bit more about Apologies when you mentioned in the book

Pete Rose Rashid Wallace and Kellen Winslow and how they're just perfected the art of apologizing without really apologizing

Yeah, I mean, I really think athletics is a great way to see a lot of this stuff played out in our lives

And you know oddly there hasn't been a lot written in the Christian market about sports, you know

I feel like we've got books on how to engage the culture and how to redeem the culture and you know all these all these sorts of books but you know

There wasn't a lot written about a lot of these issues in sports and how they pertain to us and the one that you mentioned the apologies one of the things

I've sort of Informally tracked for a long time as a writer has been athlete apologies and I actually wrote a series of columns on ESPN calm about this a few years ago and just how

Athletes apologize without apologizing, you know, and there'd be PR generated You know

I really hope we can move beyond this as a team and I'm really sorry if anybody was offended by what

I said you know these sort of non apologies and it got me thinking about sin and Redemption and you know the few examples we see of athletes and sometimes

Christian athletes taking Responsibilities for their sins and for the things that they've done and how we can learn from that, you know

I think in our culture, we're so Hesitant to even talk about sin anymore and and in many cases in our church culture

We don't we don't preach about sin We don't talk about sin and you know we can we can almost get to a point where we feel like you know, it isn't sin anymore, but Again sports is a way to look at some of these apologies and look at how people deal with sin and redemption in a healthy

Way, hopefully did I think you're so right and I often try to tell the congregation and try to live it myself as well

It's one thing if you step on someone's foot and say, oh, I'm sorry, or please excuse me, or I apologize

But the gospel would tell us and the scriptures are clear when we sin against another person

We are to say will you please forgive me and then now the ball is in their court as it were and they can say yes

I forgive you or no, I don't but when I say I'm sorry, or I apologize or excuse me.

There's no Transaction that needs to take place and so I I see not I see this not only in sports stars, but also in the church

I'm sorry When when sin when we sin against one another we should ask for forgiveness. Would you agree?

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think that's if there's anything that this book does, right? Hopefully it hopefully we see a lot of ourselves in it

You know We see a lot of ourselves in these issues even though we're not Sports are per se we can we can look at at the issues and the things that they have and that Happen to these these guys and sort of apply them to our own life.

Well, if you're just tuning in This is Mike Ebendroth interviewing Ted cluck alive. He's an author and an excellent author evangelical author

Maybe I'd call him evangelical and reformed and he has written three excellent books. This is

WVNE no compromise radio Ted Tell our audience I keep wanting to say their congregation

But tell our audience about your love of JC Ryle I notice you've quoted him in several of your books and and why you like JC Ryle Yeah, gosh, that's a great question

And JC Ryle is an author who my mom actually introduced me to a few years ago

And you know, I was sort of I was struggling to read some of this classic

Christian literature, you know There were authors. I felt like I should read and I got a hold of JC Ryle's book holiness and it was written

I believe in the late 1850s and You know, it just resonated with me, you know here was someone who was passionate about the gospel unafraid to take on cultural issues in a biblical and gospel centered way and Really at the time

I was writing why we're not emergent. He was really speaking to a lot of these issues You know, he was speaking to this you know sort of squishy amorphous feel -good doctrine that he was dealing with in Great Britain in the 1950s or in the 1850s and it really could have been written today and I just thought there was there was so much truth in that book and so much truth in this author that Many Christians weren't aware of and I'm so thankful that that my mom passed that along to me

And now he's one of my favorite authors. That's pretty neat that your mother would influence you to read JC Ryle as a pastor

I try to influence the folks to do it as well He wrote a book. I don't know if you've read it Ted warnings to the churches

Similar to holiness, it seems like it's written today. It is just trans Chronological and I love to read

JC Ryle I'm a five -point Calvinist, but JC Ryle is a four -point Calvinist who's pre -millennial and we still like him

Most definitely. Yeah, I mean it was a real challenge for me as I was writing why we're not emergent

Why we love the church and not just you know quote way too much JC Ryle I'm like man if I could just copy and paste entire sections of his book people wouldn't even need to read my book

But you know that that's the fun thing about being a writer You get to pick and choose those influences and share them with other people.

So exciting Tell us about Muhammad Ali. You've got chapter 11 in the new book the reason for sports

Published by Moody Press sports and humility I just keep thinking of Muhammad Ali when he said

I am the greatest pretty much defining an era or a culture You've got a quote to start off the chapter that's subtitled why

I love Muhammad Ali But why he also may have ruined sports. What did you mean by that?

Yeah, man, I really hesitated to write that chapter. I mean knocking Muhammad Ali is sort of like Knocking a deity nowadays and I love boxing.

I've always enjoyed that sport and I've always loved Muhammad Ali I mean, I've loved the Washington fight and he was a beautiful fighter

I got to meet him very briefly in Washington DC when I was covering one of Mike Tyson's fights a few years ago and You know,

I think Ali really like you said defined an era in terms of self glorification

Beforehand athletes were were hesitant to do that kind of boasting publicly, you know it seemed like there was more of a team focus, but Muhammad Ali and in really his wisdom in terms of how to market boxing and market spice boxings a sport that Ebbs and flows, of course on its on the largeness of its celebrities and it's

Stars and you know, he created a lot of energy for the sport through that. He was eloquent. He was charming

He was funny But but I think you really set the wheels in motion for this kind of rampant culture of self expression that we have in sports and now you can't watch a ballgame without You know a running back making a three -yard gain and standing up and pounding his chest after every play

So, you know, I think there's a point there where it got out of control and that's too bad Well, I watch these games today both college and pro and even high school

I remember back in the 90s when Nebraska beat Miami for the national championship and during the first quarter

Miami would stop Nebraska for a three -yard gain and then Warren Sapp would begin to chant and Put his hands up and do all these things and of course,

Miami ended up losing to Tommy Frazier, Nebraska that year and I just thought where are the people that can just set the ball down to just let their actions speak and When you write about that kind of thing, you're just an easy

Author to read sometimes I'll kind of laugh out loud when you'll talk about your agent And so I'd encourage all the folks today not to get these books to burn them but to read them

I've got this ongoing thing Ted that if it's a really bad book, you have to burn it. Yeah. Yeah, definitely don't burn

Yeah Tell me in the senses of since this is no compromise radio. Why were you ever a professional wrestler?

And what was your record? Well, my record was a 1 -0 and I took on professional wrestling as research for another book that I had written called headlock headlocks and dropkicks

And it was kind of an exploration of this weird circusy subculture. That's you know, kind of always been with us in America which is professional wrestling and It was a fun book

I mean I've got a lot of a lot of interesting interviews with wrestlers past and present and I can honestly say

I'm really glad it's over and My my handle in the ring. I was the great American author.

So That was your name. That was my that was my ring name. Yeah, correct

Now when you grew up in the Midwest, did you remember Vern Ganya? Oh, Absolutely Vern Ganya part of the great,

Minnesota cradle of wrestlers Absolutely. He'd come to Omaha and I got to see Vern Ganya. Oh, yeah,

Vern Ganya Baron von rashki It was actually my probably my favorite interview of the book. Oh, I Loved him.

Yeah. Yeah, he was amazing. So It was a fun book, you know one that probably won't sell a ton of copies

But but I'm glad I did it got a got a kick out of it Well, we're talking to the author Ted cluck He's a moody author and we

I think should shift gears Let's talk a little bit about the book why we love the church

Subtitle in praise of institutions and organized religion Ted. I especially like this

It resonates with me because I'm a pastor of a local church. Why is this book important for evangelicalism today?

Yeah, yeah Well, we just really felt like the church and organized religion was taking a beating out there culturally

You know, you walk through the church section at your local bookstore and two -thirds of the books are about leaving the church

You know, these books are about maybe how we love Jesus, but we don't like Christians or how we love

Jesus but we hate the church and There's a real Anti church anti institution vibe throughout all those and you know

One of the things we wanted to do with the book was encourage folks like you we wanted to encourage local church pastors who maybe

Feel discouraged by all this stuff and feel like gosh, I don't consider myself a Revolutionary or a futurist or a trend shaper, but I'm just out there trying to faithfully love my congregation and preach the gospel and Those churches do so much good and I've been fortunate enough to be a part of Several churches like that my life and I'm very thankful for him

Well, it was similar to Josh Harris's book why I stopped dating the church and actually Josh I think said that this book is better than his book.

Oh I like I liked it. We got her. I'm sorry. Go ahead No, I was just gonna give some accolades to my co -author

Kevin Young who's a very very talented writer and pastor Theologian so now when you write the books together

Do you divvy up the topics and say ahead of time you take these chapters? I'll take these

Yeah, roughly, you know, I mean we just kind of plan to divvy up the chapters I mean, he'll take five and I'll take five and The topics really

I guess we do divvy them up ahead of time when we do the proposals But sometimes during the writing process those will change a little bit depending on what our experiences are and what we're what we're seeing out there

But yeah, we do and in general he takes the more Kind of theological pastoral type type chapters and and I take more of the man -on -the -street

Cultural chapters and you know together at work people seem to enjoy it. It does seem to work I have to go back to Christ words in Matthew where he said he will build the church

He will build his church and as MacArthur always says Jesus. I did not promise to build a pair of church

Organizations or other institutions there was one Organism that he promised to build and that we don't want to be in competition with Christ Jesus as he builds the church and so you've got

Barna who comes along and I'm glad you brought it up in your book Regarding his book Revolution you've got

Harold camping who said the church basically doesn't exist today And how do these guys get so off track?

I don't mean MacArthur but I mean Barna and Harold camping doing the opposite of what Christ Jesus himself said

Yeah, I don't know. You know, I mean, I think there's there's so much appeal in in pleasing the culture and in acquiescing to the culture

You know if the culture saying the church is irrelevant and Christians are you know closed -minded and and you know

Judgmental it's hard not to be moved by that at some level But you know as we look through the

New Testament, I mean, we just don't we don't see a structureless Church you know, Jesus was a trainer of a preacher and You know, we see elder rule.

We see the office of deacon I mean we see all these sort of episodes of structure and of planning and intentionality that went into building the church

And you know to blow all that up in the name of you know, cultural relevance I think is something we do at our own peril

Definitely one of my favorite quotes in your book called why we love the church with co -author

Kevin de Young you say this on? Page 69 I for one am thankful that I go to a church that isn't trying to be like my coffee shop

I'm glad that someone cares enough about the gospel to preach it to me in a powerful and convincing way a way that has edges a way that makes me feel

Uncomfortable and I'm thankful that my church doesn't do this to make me feel awkward unloved or unwelcomed rather for my sanctification

And growth and I just say as a pastor that is great Yeah, thanks a lot and I am thankful for that You know,

I think many people in their critique for the church The church is boring or it's irrelevant. But boy,

I mean to hear a Scriptural message every week that reminds me that my heart is sick and that I need a

Redeemer and it shows me that Redeemer There's there's absolutely nothing boring about that.

And that's about as relevant as it gets for a Christian Well, you hit it on the head when you talk about people who want fellowship, but they want no commitment

They want fellowship without any kind of authority they'd like to just be part but they don't want to sign on the bottom line in terms of Membership and use their gifts and be held up accountable be held accountable in church discipline so you have authors who come along and say well the church is no good and and Here's what we need to do

And I think this book here today why we love the church in praise of institutions and organized religion

Really will help Pastors and I especially like to like it when you said why

I love my church Towards the end of the book page 190 and following and you said that one of the reasons why you love the church is for Propositions, what'd you mean by that?

Yeah, I mean, I think just the fact that our church Comes real with all the all the edginess of the gospel, you know

The fact that I'm a sinner in need of a Redeemer the fact that there is a heaven and there is a hell

That there will be judgment There will be judgments for unbelievers

After after we die and you know that those things have gone out of vogue these days

I think in the name of conversation in the name of not offending anyone and again I mean we have to critique our institutions if we don't

You know, I it's easy to get blinders on but you know It's again a church that does that in a loving way and in a way that welcomes people in a way that that's kind I think that's a successful church, you know, whether you've got 50 people or 5 ,000 people there on Sunday morning

You know, I think being faithful to Scripture and faithful to the gospel That's really worth that.

Well, you also said you liked you loved your church because of preaching we can go to Different theaters on Broadway and get excellent drama

We can go to the Hollywood Bowl and get excellent Classical music or if you want rock and roll music down at the

Palladium or wherever you go but to get preaching Exposition reading it and explaining it and then repeating that same process you brought up in the book

There's nowhere else to go except the Lord's Church for faithful exposition.

So that's probably why you like preaching, right? Yeah, absolutely, and it's so important, you know, and I feel so Blessed to be able to sit under an expositor like Kevin and you know

There are obviously a lot of churches that that have great faithful pastors like this who? Are more interested in being with God during the week and in the scriptures than necessarily even with culture

Kevin is not the person I talked to for pop cultural references and films and music But boy when

I when I need to hear from Scripture He's there and he's ready and he's passionate about that and he reads and explains and he explains very well and I think that's an art that maybe we're losing in our churches and I sure hope that Seminaries and churches reaffirm the centrality of preaching

Well, I talked to my court and yesterday and he said what we don't need is life coaches We need preachers and I think that's exactly what you want to bring out in the book

And I have a question for you to the church that you minister in and you attend Do you have do you serve coffee there?

Is there a Starbucks in the in the sanctuary or the narthex? No, you know what? We have a coffee pot in the narthex and and the coffee that comes out of it is usually really terrible

So I can I can say with all certainty that the people that come to our church are not coming for the coffee

Well once Starbucks is passe It'll be Pete's or the next thing and we'll have to have the gospel according to Pete's by Leonard's suite as a follow -up to the

Gospel according to Starbucks. Hey, I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt it that might be coming now the very end of the book

You have a chapter for your son dear Tristan. And so tell me what you were trying to do with that chapter yeah, that was one of the first things

I wrote for the book and As I sat down to think about you know My hopes and dreams to the church and what

I hope to communicate it really came out of the letter to my son And he's a seven -year -old boy.

And you know as a parent you reach a certain age in your life I'm 33 where you start to think of things through the lens of your children more than through the lens of yourself and you know, that's both

Exciting and discouraging. I mean, I think we lose a little bit of our own identities to parenthood But you know as I thought about the church,

I really thought what do I hope for Tristan? You know and as rebellion becomes so sexy in our culture and he grows up and you know what's he gonna think about the church and what do

I want him to love and affirm in the church and you know that chapter is really just a

Kind of a an exploration of all that, you know, and my hopes and dreams for him as it pertains to church

Ted Thank you so much for the time today I want to commend Ted cluck in his writing with his

Co -author Kevin DeYoung why we love the church the reason for sports that Ted did on his own and then why we're not emergent

I appreciate your time today Ted. This is Mike Avendroth for no compromise radio You can catch this podcast as well on no compromise radio .com.

Have a good day Ted. God bless Thank you very much No compromise radio with pastor

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