Pastor Cary Gordon on Enemies Within the Church

Hi, welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris and I want to talk about the enemies within the church film because I've been advertising it, I've asked you to go donate, to join the launch team on Facebook and I've never really shared, I don't think, my story, how I came to be involved with this.

I'm not getting paid at all, I'm not a spokesperson for them, I don't officially represent the film at all, but I see the importance in it and I want to explain why I see this as an important thing and it starts with a story.

Judd Saul called me the night that I released the video on Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and my experience there. And I had never talked to him before, I knew that the movie was a project, I had seen a trailer for it, but I didn't know anything else.

And he said, you know, there's a social justice and a gospel conference in Georgia, it's a pre-conference for G3, it's being hosted by Sovereign Nations, why don't you come down? I had never heard of it.

And it's just, I see the providence of God through this whole thing because I released that video about Southeastern without any knowledge that in a few days there was this conference and they were going to be doing interviews for the Enemies Within the Church.

Film.

And I said, well, the semester hasn't started, I do have a little bit of time, I could probably swing it and they were very generous to put me up in a hotel room that I shared with Judd, they're on a shoestring budget, but I enjoyed that.

And I was only there for about a day and I came back, a day and a night. And while I was there, this is the interesting part, something that really made me think God's hand was in this, Judd and Pastor Kerry Gordon, who were the two that were out there, Kerry Gordon's doing the interview, Judd is the producer, really this film I think is more his brainchild.

Kerry is a Pentecostal background guy, and Judd is more, he's been Southern Baptist, but I think more on the Arminian end of that. And I'm, of course, more of a Reformed guy, and so we ran in different circles, and this conference was mostly Reformed guys, so people in my tradition, and I did not know anyone who was there, but they knew me.

James White knew who I was, Vodie Bauckham and I had a sit down for a little bit and talked about some interesting things, I met Tom Buck, and I didn't even realize that the Dallas Signers knew about my video, so that was shocking to me at the time, but I was able to help Judd get some contacts with these guys in the Reformed group because they knew who I was.

And I saw that whole thing as God's providence, the timing of when I released this video, and then my presence there, and it helping them, and I got to spend some quality time with them, both Judd and Pastor Kerry Gordon, and I mean it was only for a few hours with Pastor Gordon, but my relationship, especially with Judd, has continued, and we talk a lot about these things and share ideas, so that's how I got involved in this from the beginning.

Now my opinion about this whole project is it's a launching pad, it's step one in a bigger process, and that's one of the reasons I'm behind it. If I were making this movie, it may look different, but so far no one's stepped up to the plate it seems like in my tradition, and I do think it's important that we have a movie, I see it as a really effective way to communicate because we live in such a visual culture at this point, and this is, like I said, step one.

This threat is affecting all traditions, denominations, even traditions and denominations that I would say are heretical, that if you believe their doctrine, you're going straight to hell, and I don't have a problem saying that.

Social justice is infecting those areas. And so I've talked to Judd about this, there is no attempt to partner with those who are not Orthodox. The only thing that the film is attempting to do is interview, for instance, they're going to be going to the Vatican, they're going to be talking to folks there, they're going to be talking to folks in, I don't know what other denominations, but I'm sure denominations that probably I wouldn't think are Orthodox, and they're going to, I mean you can't talk about this issue without going to Catholics because liberation theology rose up in the Catholic Church.

So if you want to understand this threat that's coming to, let's say, Reformed circles, you would have to understand what happened in the Catholic Church because it's similar. And so they're going to be doing some interviews, but they're not partnering for the sake of the gospel.

They're not saying, you know, we put our stamp of approval on these guys, they're Orthodox, they're Christians, they are just experiencing some of the same threat and we can share resources, and that's the sense I'm getting.

But I like doing it this way, and I'm going to explain why. Because this is a launching pad, because this is step one, we can then narrow our focus. We can share resources so that other denominations, so Methodists, and Presbyterians, and Baptists, and yes, even Catholics, can share the resources that we're putting out there.

And within those resources is going to be a gospel presentation, and that's key to me. So those watching this who are from other backgrounds are going to hear the clear gospel of Jesus Christ. And it's going to create an opportunity, I think, to start a movement.

And that's the intention. I know that's what Judd's intention is. This is just step one. It may be an imperfect step one, but it's step one. We're going to have a library. I say we as if I'm not part of it.

I keep using that because I feel like I'm so close to Judd at this point with how much we've talked about this, and he listens to me, which I'm grateful for. It doesn't mean he maybe necessarily is going to take everything I say, but I feel a camaraderie with him, and I see the vision, because he wants to create a library.

So if you're in the SBC, or the PCA, or a different denomination, or let's say you're focusing on one issue, you want to know about feminism, well there's going to be a video library on the website that is going to talk about all these things.

You want to know more about what's happening at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Judd wants to have a video library. So I really like that. So going forward, the movie's just the kickoff, and then from there, these different circles that we're a part of can combat this, and we're going to use the movie as a way to network and share resources.

No one else, as far as I know, is doing this, and that's the other reason that I'm behind.

It.

Like I said, I may look at this different. If I was the producer, the sole producer, I may make a different looking movie in some ways. But I'm not doing it, and no one in my camp seems to want to do it, and I really respect the Dallas Signers, and especially this last week, the stand Tom Buck's taken, but getting a project like this together that really is capable of sparking a resistance movement to the social justice movement that's currently underway, I'm not seeing that as much.

There's some little attempts here and there, at least coming from my community, but guys in the reform camp, we have no problem all day. We'll make documentaries even. We'll criticize the prosperity gospel, and we'll go after other heresies, but this one seems to be getting a pass because of the way, the strategy.

It's a political movement, and it's under the radar because of that, and I think Jud sees this, and I think Pastor Gordon does too. It's affecting their traditions as well as mine. It gets to the heart of the issue, at least that's what I've been told.

It's going to talk about pietism and sort of the reason, the vacuum that pietism created and how neo-Marxism has slid into that vacuum, and it's going to expose this as a false gospel, so there will be a gospel presentation in the film.

Now, Jud, like I said, more on the Arminian side, Cary more on the Pentecostal side, but as far as I can tell, they are orthodox, and it's important that I say this. There's been some questions about, especially where Pastor Cary Gordon leans, I've had some extensive conversations with him over the last half a day, so last night and this morning, and I've attempted to parse everything out with him.

There were some questions about what he believed about baptism, and I know in the past I've had people reach out to me and ask if he was in the Word Faith movement, and I guess initially he had some, he went to a school that now is in that movement, but he denounces that.

He hates the prosperity gospel. He believes baptism is a matter of obedience to Christ and an important matter, but it comes after justification. Justification and baptism are not connected in a sense that baptism is not a prerequisite for justification, for being made right with God.

He made a statement that it was part of the salvation experience, and some folks have been concerned, and I shared that concern. I wanted to make sure I understood what he was saying, and the salvation experience, he was combining sanctification with justification, so it's all cleared up now as far as I'm concerned.

I've parsed it out with him, and because of this and other concerns, we've actually put a statement of faith on the launch group, and it's 11 points, and very orthodox, down-the-line statement of faith, grace through faith in the finished work of Christ.

Justification is a work of the Lord, repentance being a, or repentant faith being a precondition, but baptism and good works not being. So we've parsed this all out, we've put it out there, and we've all agreed to it.

Kerry Gordon has, Judd Saul has, I have, and so I didn't post it, but I sent it to them. I'm like, okay, what about this? Can we all agree on this? And yes, and so I'm very happy for that. And then, of course, this video that I'm putting out now is going to be my interview with Kerry Gordon, and so he's going to actually talk about this more, and you can hear it from him, what he believes the gospel is, and why he's the person Judd chose as the interviewer in this documentary.

I understand why this is happening. Kerry Gordon has taken some amazing stands in the state of Iowa, politically speaking. No one can accuse him of not believing that the gospel speaks, I should say the gospel, the Word of God speaks to issues even in the political realm.

The Word of God has a lot of stuff to say about that, and that's one of the accusations coming our direction, is you just think that you're supposed to preach the gospel and that's.

It.

Well, we are supposed to preach the gospel. The gospel does have implications. The Word of God does speak to societal issues, though, and Pastor Kerry Gordon has actually faithfully executed a resistance against unbiblical thinking in the public arena, and I'll let him flesh that out in our interview, but that's what I think Judd saw that made him, he's a recognizable pastor and political figure, especially in Iowa, and a political figure not because he's in politics, but because he's a pastor, that's being a prophetic voice, and he's well-spoken on these issues.

So I needed to put that out there and let you know that if you're going to be part of this launch group, there is a statement of faith, and there's really two goals for the launch group. So my goal was, I wanted to have a place on Facebook or social media where someone could go and they could share resources.

They could get encouragement, they could ask questions, hey, my pastor's saying this stuff, what do I say back? That's what I was intending, and we've kind of combined that with this movie, launching this movie, and so I think the two missions are compatible, and after the movie's launch, I think the only reason that that group's going to remain, we may even rename it, is just for sharing resources, just for fighting this, but you do need to agree to the statement of faith.

That's there. This is for orthodox believers, if you're going to be part of the launch group. So I desire to share the gospel with outside traditions that might not even be orthodox. Carrie and Judd seem to be on the same train when it comes to that.

They recognize also this is a political movement, and that's one of the things I think that attracts me to the project, that they're not seeing this as just theological. This is subversive, and there's a political motivation behind it.

This is about Western civilization. This is bigger than, I mean, the church is certainly a part of this, but this is about subverting Western civilization as well. So it's a threat to the gospel. It's a threat, though, to our culture, and it's affecting everyone.

It's affecting everyone. So I see this as a win-win on all counts to support the film. Now, I'm going to share with you now my interview with Pastor Kerry Gordon, who is the person doing the interviews in this movie.

So I'm assuming he'll probably be narrating some things as well, so his voice will be lent to it. He is not being paid anything to be part of this. He believes in it. Like I've said before, he's from a different tradition, Judd's from a different tradition, and I'm from a different tradition, but we all see this as a threat affecting the broad spectrum of Christendom.

And so I'm thankful for that, thankful that they're doing this, and here you go. Pastor Gordon, thank you for being with me today. I wanted to ask you a few questions about the film. We met back in January at the Social Justice and the Gospel Conference, and you were interviewing me about my experience at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and now I guess it's my turn to ask you a few questions.

So I appreciate you being willing to do this.

Glad to be with you.

Thank you for letting me come on.

My pleasure. So the first question I had is, Judd Saul introduced us at the pre-conference, and you had told me a little bit about your political involvement as a pastor in Iowa, in Iowa politics, state politics, and national politics.

What has been your experience with being a politically involved pastor?

Well, my primary experience is it's fairly lonely. I was brought up with antinomian doctrine, and I was brought up in pietism and taught that you should not be involved in politics as a minister. But we live in curious times that challenge the notions that we have, and one of the things that happened to us is we had five little children that were murdered with a ball-ping hammer, and little kids that came to our church that were part of our evangelistic outreach.

And going through the trauma of their funeral and having had a special relationship with each one of those children at a time in life when my wife and I hadn't yet conceived—we have six children now—was very difficult to describe, but it led me to ask questions about my theology and my faith and the idea that the church should abandon the political.

Sphere.

And I realized that a large part of why those children were dead, if I trace the story backwards to how it all began, a parking or a street light next to the mother's home had burned out and she was afraid to be alone, and she invited a co-worker to come over because she was afraid.

She lived on a bad side of town. And I traced everything back to that light bulb and asked myself the question, why didn't someone just change the light bulb? Because inevitably what happened, someone she thought was a friendly person came inside of her house and killed all of her children and her because she asked them to come to her home because she was afraid at night when she got off work that the light bulb was burned.

Out.

And the answer to the question, why didn't someone change the light bulb, ultimately comes back to the influence and the power of the law of God and society and the idea of being a gentleman, the idea of taking care of the widows and the orphans, much of what Christianity once upon a time so permeated a society with.

That, you know, had the scenario happened a hundred years ago, for example, I was faced with the reality that she would not be dead and the children wouldn't be dead because a gentleman would have never considered going into her home at night because it has the appearance of evil, because that's what.

The church had taught everybody.

And marriage was sacred. And in fact, he would have brought a ladder, changed the light bulb and everything would.

Be different.

So I had to face the reality that some of the horrible things that are happening in this world are the direct result of the abandonment of our civilization by the church. So that's the shortest version I could possibly give you without falling on the ground and.

Weeping.

How's that?

That is so interesting because you're, for more or less, you're the face of this film because you're the one doing a lot of the interviews that are going to be in the film. And a lot of the threats that we're seeing from the social justice side, they're saying,.

Yeah, the church should be involved.

And that's what we're for culture and engagement. And we think that we need to do something, but you're saying that there's actually a problem with the way that they're doing it. You want to be culturally engaged as Christians.

That's right. So if you take the issue of antinomianism, which is a divorcement of all the absolutes of the law of God summarized in the Ten Commandments, for example, and you've convinced yourself that Christianity is only found in the New Testament and that you should have no concern, like Andy Stanley recently said, which caused quite a national controversy.

How did he phrase it? It was something to the effect of, thou shalt not obey the Ten Commandments because the Ten Commandments are not for you.

Right.

That's something along those lines. Well, if you take the Marcion view of the Old Testament, naturally, there were many things in New Testament writings that were written under the assumption that the audience already knew established Old Testament themes.

And so everything wasn't restated again in the New Testament that's still in force right.

Now.

Like, for example, it doesn't say anywhere in the New Testament, Jesus never said, don't trip blind people. He didn't need to say that because the law of God already said it, and we kind of know it instinctively.

You shouldn't trip blind people, and Jesus never explicitly said that two men shouldn't sexually fondle one another, but he didn't need to say that. It was understood by literally everyone in Jewish culture that that was an abomination.

To the Lord.

So you see in this threat with some of the social justice practitioners this, I mean, because they'll use the Old Testament sometimes, but it seems like they cherry pick and they're not actually studying it through the lens of a biblical, or I should say, historical grammatical hermeneutic to actually try to make sense and apply.

That's exactly right. So if you have a church that has, you know, for several hundred years since the Reformation had some penchant toward abandonment of civil government, there's two different ways of doing that.

There's the antinomian view of like an Andy Stanley, who just bluntly says, you don't need the Ten Commandments, but that there's another version of it where you have churchmen that say, well, no, no, no, no, we patronize the Ten Commandments.

We need them, but they're only written in our hearts, and the Ten Commandments should have absolutely no bearing at all on modern civil government. Well, both of those get the exact same results, and that is a lawless, godless culture.

And you know, when you have that kind of a church that suddenly says, you know what, the church needs to get politically involved, well, on what basis? So they get involved on basically, and here's the crux of it, if you do not define biblical love by tethering it to how love behaves according to the law of God, then your definition of love becomes a humanistic, subjective idea, and if you go into political action with a subjective law of love, you're going to end up being a Marxist, and that's what's really.

Going on.

I'm probably making it too simple, but on some level, when an antinomian type of a Christian gets involved in politics, it's going to end up in theological liberalism, which gives way to political liberalism.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

So I think what you're saying is that they're not going to be a prophetic voice in culture or politics on the basis of the revelation of God, but rather on a different kind of revelation, and what I've seen, it seems like they're giving a facelift or putting a Christian veneer on ideas from sociology and psychology and really neo-Marxist ideas, and calling.

Them Christian.

And ultimately, the neo-Marxism issue is an abandonment of the absolutes of the law of math. So our culture is really, we've got a lot of ways of describing it, secular humanist, Marxist humanist, cosmic humanist, postmodern, atheistic, on and on.

But I think a really good term that should come into more common use is probably neo-Gnostic. I think American culture right now is very neo-Gnostic, and the fastest way to describe that is, we are at war with the idea of absolutes in any form, including biological absolutes.

I mean, I could identify as a penguin, if I wish.

Postmodernism.

Yeah, you're so anti-authority, we can't even stand the constraints imposed by nature itself. And if that's true, then of course our founding fathers viewed mathematics as a form of natural law or divine natural law, so math comes from God, we didn't invent it.

And Marxism is, you're basically declaring war on math.

Right.

So, now you have tried to be a politically involved pastor, now I don't think you probably want to toot your own horn, most pastors, well I shouldn't say most pastors don't, most pastors probably do, but I know you well enough, I think at this point through our conversations, that you'd rather, you're for the cause, you're for the principles, not for promoting yourself as much, it seems like at least.

But you have had some major accomplishments in the state of Iowa. I know during the Iowa caucus, the Republican candidates, they want to talk to you. I was wondering if you could just talk about that a little bit, some of the, maybe the accomplishments or the influence that you've had as a pastor, just to encourage other pastors that they can be a prophetic voice.

Well, absolutely. Yeah, I suppose I've accomplished some things. I led a public charge along in cooperation with other wonderful people in the state several years ago in 2010 to do the first time in history, oust three state Supreme Court judges who decided to use their oligarchical powers and declare that we were going to have gay marriage because they chose that we would have gay marriage.

And so, I led a coalition of about what ended up being about 300 churches of every denomination, including some Catholics who asked to remain nameless. And we basically went to the pulpits and said, you know, we're not going to go by the IRS regulations or alleged regulations of the IRS that defy the concept of the freedom of religion established in the Bill of Rights, granted by God and supposed to be protected.

By the government.

Congress shall make no law, you know, infringing upon our rights or freedoms of speech in particular. And as a minister, I said to the other pastors in our state, stand in your pulpit for three consecutive Sundays and on the authority of the Word of God, tell the people, not that they should, but that they must, in obedience to the Word of God, vote no on judicial retention.

And judicial retention in our state, not every state has that. But it's basically, the public is asked in a series of years, do you believe that the judges of your state have morally and ethically behaved, yes or no?

And if you get enough people to say no, they haven't morally and ethically behaved, then the judge is removed from office, which would otherwise be a lifetime appointment by the governor of our state.

So, for the first time in history, a majority of voters, which included thousands of Democrats by the way, voted no, these judges did not behave, it is not the role of the judiciary to make law, it is the role of the judiciary to decide decisions that have been put at law by the legislature.

And so the people, even some people that maybe thought gay marriage was a good idea, voted to throw the judges out because they abused their power. So, that issue was not a fight I was looking for, that fight came to me.

I'm a minister, and I'm seeing the ramifications of what's going to happen with gay marriage, which now all of us are seeing, but I saw it early. And I thought, I've got to do something. I wrote a letter and asked pastors to throw the judges out.

That ended up causing national attention. Of course, when all three judges were defeated by 12 points, after literally every expert said it would never happen and it was impossible, since we're a first in the nation status on presidential elections, you know, all of these guys that want to run for president, most of them, if they're reasonably conservative, they do ask to sit down and talk with me because I allegedly have magic dust I can sprinkle on their campaign and cause them to win.

And I honestly, I have mixed emotions about that. I usually say yes, even when I want to say no, because I usually feel like the Holy Spirit nudges me to go ahead and do it. Because I do ask the tough questions that I rarely hear anyone ask.

And I'm overwhelmingly unimpressed with political people. I love them. I pray for them. I'm very concerned about our country and I stay active in so much as I draw the attention of every man, every chance I get that runs for president to the law of God and ask him, what are you going to do about these existential threats to our civilization?

Are you just going to be a coward or are you going to stand up for what you know is right?

Yeah, wow. Now, you've probably taken a lot of heat for this, I would imagine. What kinds of things have been said about you or done to you or your church or your family? I mean, you don't probably want to share all of that, but maybe give us a sample.

Okay. Well, you know, I was referred to, this is more comical, I was referred to as the Ayatollah of Iowa because I talk about the law of God a lot. Of course, I'm accused inside the church of being a purveyor of works-based salvation because I talk about the law of God a lot.

But more serious things, you know, we've had rocks through the windows of our church. We've had a dump truck come in the night and dump garbage in the driveway so that on Sunday morning, no one was able to get to the church parking lot, which is a quarter of a mile.

Up the lane.

Amazing.

Our evangelism truck that we take to parks to teach about, you know, fire safety and don't do drugs and things like that as a way to attract the community and then hopefully get them to come to church where we can preach the gospel to them.

That truck mysteriously burst into flames one night. I was, I've received death threats, not just against me, but against my wife and my children around Christmas time. And those death threats, I figured out who did it.

I had the name.

Wow.

It ended up being a man who was appointed to be on the Human Rights Commission of our city, and the Human Rights Commission is an extension of the judicial branch, pledging to allegedly protect people's religious freedoms.

But primarily, we all know that the Human Rights Commission, their main mission is to ensure super rights that are created for homosexual people. So consider the irony, a commissioner, a human rights commissioner had previously lobbed a death threat against me and my wife and my children.

You know, when it comes to street preaching, I think the most wonderful privilege I've ever had, I was once, just once, I honestly, I think it would be great if it was more, but one time I was hit in the face.

Oh, goodness.

For preaching the gospel on a street. So I'm in this for the long haul. I'm approaching my 25th year of pastoring. My grandfather was a minister for over 60 years. My father has been in the ministry until he retired for over 40 years.

I have brother-in-laws that are actively in the pastorate, uncles. So we're kind of like the Levites around here.

Wow, that's incredible to me. I mean, I guess the next question would be, what makes you get up in the morning and choose to be a politically involved pastor, a prophetic voice?

I love my neighbor as I love myself. And I understand the dangers that are coming for my children and my grandchildren. If we continue the course of abandonment and not raising the standard of God's law where it's needed the most amongst the lawless.

Now, for me, I agree with what you just said. I know for me and a lot of others, like those who signed a Dallas statement on social justice and the gospel, we're concerned that the gospel itself is under attack or being progressively dismantled by an alternative Marxist type gospel.

And so I think that's one of the things that's caused a lot of folks who were not previously, perhaps even aware or involved. Now they're saying, wait a minute, this is affecting core Christian doctrines.

Do you see that?

I do. The social justice gospel is one aberration or aberration that's the result of some very big ideas that the church embraced a very long time ago that have set us on course for this mess that we have.

But the social justice gospel in particular, it seems to segregate the world into two compartments. One are perpetual victims who can never, ever be healed of their victimhood. And the other are allegedly perpetual abusers that can never, ever, ever be forgiven for whatever abuse they allegedly have done.

And that is the opposite of the real gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ takes people who were legitimate victims and heals them and turns them into overcomers. And the gospel of Jesus Christ takes wicked men who may have legitimately been abusers and forgives them of what they have done and transforms their nature so that they no longer want to be an abuser.

I think of the Apostle Paul before his conversion, without any violation of his own conscience, according to his own testimony, he murdered Christians. He thought he was doing the right thing. So the real gospel sets people free and alleviates us all from the terrible burden and guilt of our sin.

And it reminds us, the true gospel, that Jesus Christ is the ultimate victim of all history. And we're all the abusers through our sin who put him on the cross. And the social justice gospel. It's heartbreaking because we put ourselves in front of Jesus and declare ourselves to be the great victims and everyone owes us.

It's not true. We owe Jesus. We owe Jesus.

The heart of this, then, is justification, in a sense. What justifies an individual? Is it the finished work of Jesus Christ, the salvation by grace, through faith in the finished work of Christ, not adding anything else to it?

Works, baptism?

Yes.

That's exactly right.

Or does someone have to pay penance perpetually because they're a part of a victim, or I should say an oppressor class?

The Catholic Church in the 1500s taught that salvation was a combination of the work of Jesus along with merit that we earned through the accumulation of good works and certain things that we had to do.

And the reformers said no to that. And they were correct. And it is by faith alone, by grace alone. And we got the five solos out of there. And you could repent every day of your life with tears. You could be baptized a thousand times.

But had Jesus not chosen to go to the cross and die for our sins and become the propitiation of our sins, had he not submitted himself to the penal substitutionary atonement, three big words, to satisfy the wrath of God, our repentance is not satisfactory.

You can't be made righteous by repentance. And you can't be made righteous by your baptism, whether you think it's sprinkling or immersion. All of those things go away. The cross is the only means by which a man can be saved.

Now, there are legitimate arguments about, is baptism important? I say absolutely. Does our current evangelical church culture, where we're worried that the gospel is being watered down, does it also water down the importance of baptism?

Yes, it does.

And that concerns me. And I'll give you an illustration. Recently, my church did some work bringing financial and emotional aid to the Archbishop of Mosul in northern Iraq. Now, this is Eastern Christianity.

So I have very, very different views of baptism than him. And, you know, evangelicals in the West, we look at Eastern Christianity and we say, what in the world are you guys doing? You lead people to the impression that they're sort of doomed to go to heaven because you sprinkled them when they were a baby.

And in my mind, that's very similar, of course, to the Roman Catholic view of baptism or the assumption that one is saved solely by baptism. And we would appeal to Acts and say, you know, that's wrong because the book of Acts says repent and be baptized.

It doesn't just say be baptized. And so we in the West look at the Eastern Church and we say, what are you guys doing? You lead people to the impression that they can go to heaven just because they were baptized.

Well, they have a criticism back at us that the Eastern Church looks at the Western Church and they say, what are you evangelicals doing? You're leading people to believe that they could walk to the front of a service and say some magical incantation.

And because they prayed this magical prayer, now they're definitely going to heaven and should never, ever doubt their salvation again. And the irony is, I agree with the criticism of both sides in that issue.

I think easy-believism is a real problem for us in the West, and we tend to diminish the importance of baptism. But in the East, it's like they are diminishing the importance of repentance in the cross by leading people to think they're saved by baptism.