August 16, 2021 Show with Rev. Richard A. Lepage II on “What is a True Anglican?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on the 16th day of August, 2021.

And after many attempts for a number of years, I am so delighted to have for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Richard A.

LaPage II. He is pastor of Reformation Anglican Church of Gray, Maine, and today we are going to be addressing what is a true

Anglican, separating historic truth from the falsehoods of those who have hijacked that term, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Richard A.

LaPage II. You can call me Rick, Chris. That sounds a lot shorter.

Yes, absolutely. It makes me think of my father when you say that. And I'm calling in from Cumberland County, Maine, by the way.

Oh, wow. Yes. Irony of ironies. And I'm sure your father didn't call you, though.

Reverend Richard A. LaPage II. No, he still doesn't. All right, well, tell us about Reformation Anglican Church of Gray, Maine.

Sure. So, Reformation is a church plant of the

Anglican Diocese of the West under Bishop Felix Orji, which is part of the

Church of Nigeria's North American mission work. We used to be known as CANA, but they've recently changed that to the

Church of Nigeria's North American mission work here in the United States.

And we've been in the planting for about nine years here in Gray. Well, I'm gathering from the name itself,

Reformation Anglican Church, that that congregation is not an Anglo -Catholic church.

No, we're not. We are very much a confessional, conforming Anglican church to the

Anglican formularies, in particular, the Thirty -Nine Articles. Yes, and those Thirty -Nine

Articles are clearly Calvinistic. Yes. And, in fact,

I pretty much agree with the vast majority of them. And I know that some of my listeners will be tired of hearing me repeat this, but I have a hard time even disagreeing as a

Reformed Baptist with the article on baptism, because it doesn't mention infants.

It just says that children should not be forbidden baptism. Right, right.

And as a Reformed Baptist, if a child repents and believes, I believe he should be baptized. I know that the intention there was infants, but I'm just saying that in a bit of lightheartedness.

Well, the Thirty -Nine Articles is one distinctive. Is the church officially tied in any sense to the

Common Book of Prayer, or the Book of Common Prayer, I'm sorry? And if so, which date do you use for the

Book of Common Prayer? Because I understand that that does make a big difference amongst Anglicans.

It does make a big difference. Officially, throughout the Anglican Communion, it's remained unchanged.

The official standard for liturgy for Anglicanism is 1662, and that's not only recognized by the

Church of England, but it's also recognized by GAFCON. And as far as I know, most of all of the

GAFCON members have had to sign on to the formularies of the Church of England as they stand in their final form.

That would be the 1571 version of the Thirty -Nine Articles. The attached sermons, which are the two volumes of homilies, and the 1662

Book of Common Prayer, which also attaches the ordinal, which is the liturgies for the making of priests, deacons, and also the consecration of bishops.

So that provides both our liturgy or ordination format for making those offices, but also provides an insight to the theology of how we see ministry.

And is Reformation Anglican Church of Greymane a high church, a low church?

And after you tell us which one you are, why don't you describe the differences?

Well, definitely in the Anglican world, we would be considered a low church Anglican. You know, probably according to much of the evangelical world today, they would consider us high church.

But we are definitely on the Anglican candle. They rate your status by how high up on the candle you are.

We would definitely be low down on the candle. We take very seriously, and I take very seriously, my ordination vows required me to subscribe to the theology of the

Thirty -Nine Articles and the theology of the 1662. We do use a modernized

English version for our liturgies, but I take great pains to make sure that they conform to the theology of the 1662, so I'm not violating my ordination oath.

Great. Well, if anybody wants more information on Reformation Anglican Church of Greymane, you can go to ReformationAnglicanChurch .org,

ReformationAnglicanChurch .org. Now, for what we do as a tradition on I Am Terrapin Zion Radio, when we have first -time guests on the program, we have them describe their salvation testimony.

What kind of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them, and that would include you.

So why don't you give us a summary of your salvation testimony? Sure. You probably can tell from my last name that I don't come from English stock, per se.

My family has a French -Canadian background, and I was born originally in New Hampshire and went to school there.

My family, like so many French -Canadians, is culturally Roman Catholic, so I was raised in the

Roman Catholic Church, and my family, I would regard as fairly devout when I was young, and so I attended a couple of parochial schools, and then later on, the college that I graduated from was

Benedictine College, St. Anselm College in Manchester, New Hampshire. So I definitely have the pedigree of having been raised in the

Roman Catholic Church. I was an altar boy. My great -uncle who lived with us actually made sure that I knew the original altar boy manual that was written in Latin and English, even though by the time

I was an altar boy, Vatican II had already happened, so we were not doing any Latin masses. As I grew up,

I always had a sense of the presence of the Lord in a deep interest. My mom was very unusual,

I think, for a Roman Catholic mom. We did, as a family, were encouraged to read the

Bible, and so I knew many of the Bible stories from a young age, which

I realized that for many Roman Catholics, that's rather unusual, but I did do that as a child.

My mom was a real blessing in that area. To make a long story short, we moved to Williamsboro, New Hampshire, when

I was in my later high school years, and I was considering making confirmation at that time, and I was rather interested in making confirmation, but was rather disappointed when

I took the course, the confirmation class, and we were given a workbook, and we were given a

Bible, which was wrapped in cellophane. I actually still have that Bible. And for the entire class, we never actually opened that Bible.

It remained in the cellophane wrappers on the desks for most of the kids that I was with. And I was rather eager to go through confirmation in the

Roman Catholic Church. I had a friend that belonged to another denomination. I think he was Methodist. I remember him telling me about their confirmation class, and that they were taken around to different churches, and basically given an exposure to what different faiths believed.

So I assumed, without thinking or researching, I was just a teenager, but that's exactly what we would do, because nobody would ask us to join a church that we didn't actually have an understanding of, and also have a comparison with what the other options were out there.

But I was rather disappointed when, in that confirmation class, we were not shared what other

Christian bodies believed, or what the other interpretations of Christianity would be. And so that rather puzzled me, and I felt like I couldn't make a decision.

So I actually took an unusual route of deciding not to make confirmation.

For many young folks that are in the Roman Catholic Church, confirmation is just sort of something that you do as a formality, like I went through my

Holy Communion and Penance class. It's just something that your parents send you to, and you do it.

There's a little cake and party afterward, and then on you go with the rest of your life. So I made that unusual decision of pausing, and not wanting to make that commitment until I'd actually thought through some of the implications of what being a

Christian was. At that time, and this is a story for parents on how well they raised their kids,

I met a young lady in high school, and I fell in very deep like with her, as many teenage boys do, and they meet other young teenage ladies, and I wanted to ask her out, and so I did.

And she said, no. I was quite surprised, quite shocked actually.

She said that the reason why she could not and would not go out with me was because I was not a

Christian. Now, having been raised in the Roman Catholic Church, attend Mass regularly, and made all the sacraments up until Confirmation, that utterly took me, not me for a loop.

I really didn't understand what she was talking about. Of course I was a Christian. I was a Roman Catholic, and I had grown up in the faith, and I tried to live a good life.

But she held firm to that, and she invited me over for dinner to meet her father.

Which is another testimony to the way she was raised. And we had dinner, and he took me aside in the living room after dinner, and he basically asked me those classic standard questions that you hear in evangelical circles.

If you died tonight, how would you get to Heaven? What would God say? Why would God allow you to go into Heaven?

At that time I was thinking about enlisting in the Army, and I was very military oriented at the time, and I said, well,

I will just march up to the throne of God, tell him everything that I did that was good, and tell him everything that I did was bad, and he's

God, and let him judge. You know, that still makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck at the hubris and arrogance that I had at that age.

And the next day in school, I asked her, I said, so what did your dad say?

And she said, one word answer, nope. And today,

I hope my own daughter has that kind of conviction and fortitude to hold fast to her faith and also listen to her father.

But that raised a whole host of questions for me. The Holy Spirit really used that to challenge me, and I ran into a guidance counselor who

I was friends with. I was the senior class president in my high school, and he was the class advisor.

And he took a look at me one day in the hallway and said, Rick, it looks like you have the cares of the world upon your shoulder.

What's going on? And I said, well, you know, I met this girl. I wanted to ask her out to a dance, and she said no, and she said it's because I wasn't a

Christian, and yet I've been raised a Roman Catholic. I don't understand this. And he said, well, why don't you come back to my office?

And he did something that would definitely get you fired today. It turned out he'd been in the Navigators, and he had his

Navigator cards in the drawer of his desk. So he pulled those out, and he shared some of the gospel verses that had to do with salvation by faith, repenting and having faith in Jesus Christ alone.

And then he invited me to go and chat with his pastor, who had been a

Roman Catholic and had been in the same situation that I had been in, or was facing at that time. And so on April 8, 1987,

I went down and made an appointment with his pastor, and we had a long talk in his study, and he shared with me from the gospel of John about my need to repent of my sins, that no one was worthy or good enough to gain entrance into heaven, and that I needed to have faith in Christ who paid all for my sins.

And then he left me alone to pray for a while, and I just began to come under conviction of my sinfulness, of the corrupted nature of my heart.

Although I may not have been able to articulate it that clearly then, I just began to pray, and I just remember just a huge weight being lifted off of me, and just being bathed in the love of Christ.

That's how I came to faith in Christ. You know, I didn't end up dating that girl at all, but her testimony was instrumental, and used by the

Lord to bring me to the gospel. I left for the

Army right after high school, and then when I got back and I started college,

I got involved in a Varsity Christian Fellowship, and it was really there that I began to grow in my faith.

Before then, I just thought that the Christian walk was just what you choose to believe, and I had an excellent staff worker who convicted me of, that no, your walk has to be in line with your confession, and the profession of your faith and the scriptures.

So that was the beginning of a process for me, a walk of sanctification and discipleship of learning the great truths, the great certainties of the gospel.

And in time, I began to wrestle with my faith after a couple of years.

I did two years at a state college, and I had an opportunity to transfer at that time to St.

Anselm College. My father was ill at the time, and I wanted to be closer to home, and St. Anselm was closer to home, and I became interested,

I was also interested in philosophy, and they had a fantastic philosophy program that was done on the Great Books model.

And I didn't know if I would get in, but I applied to it, and I got in. I love to tell people that the reason that I became

Reformed was also due to the Roman Catholic Church. While I was in seminary at St.

Anselm, I mean, excuse me, at college at St. Anselm, we were required to read a great number of books, and it's interesting that the year that I was in the humanities program there, one of the questions that we were asked with is, who are prophets?

Who are prophets in the Western civilization? And they gave us two authors to read selections from their work, asking the questions, are these men prophetic?

Modern -day prophets, were they prophetic in their exposition of the Christian faith? And believe it or not, it was

Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will, and then excerpts from Calvin's Institute.

And both of those books had very profound and defining input into my faith development.

So from there, I began to read more and study more.

I got very involved in InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. I learned to appreciate

Bible study. I became an InterVarsity staff worker for a brief amount of time after college.

And I began to look for churches that basically taught what

I was reading along the lines of Martin Luther and John Calvin. And for a short time,

I was in the PCAA. I ended up in the church of someone that I think you've interviewed before,

Dr. T. David Gordon. Oh yeah, I've interviewed him several times. Yes, he was my pastor.

In fact, he married my wife and I. I really made the final journey into the

Reformed faith under his tutelage at the church where he was pastor. He was pastoring

Christ Presbyterian in Nashua, NH, and he was teaching full -time New Testament at Gordon -Conwell. And he really had a profound influence on my early development and understanding of the

Reformed faith. And he was the one that encouraged me. I think I finished two years of working on staff with InterVarsity.

And he's the one that encouraged me to go to Westminster Seminary. And so on his encouragement,

I went down to Westminster Seminary. And that is where, actually, I began to encounter

Anglicanism for the first time. It's interesting that Dr.

Gordon was a Presbyterian pastor, but the last time I spoke with him, he was a member of an

Anglican church. Not a pastor, but a member, as I think I am correctly remembering that.

Yes, he is. He attends, him and his wife attend. And as far as I know, I haven't talked to him in a year or two.

He attends Grace Anglican Church in Slippery Rock, Pennsylvania, which is pastored by Pastor Ethan Magnus, who from all accounts

I hear is just a phenomenal pastor and Reformed Anglican. But, yes,

Dr. Gordon and another one of the professors at Grove City College, Gillis Harp, I guess were founding members of Grace Anglican at Slippery Rock, if I understand the story correctly.

And it's also interesting that the time that Dr. Gordon had transferred from Gordon -Conwell

Seminary to teach at Grove City was also his journey.

I believe he's still a Presbyterian minister in good standing. And I would encourage everybody out there if they haven't heard of this yet, on Dr.

Gordon's website, he has a phenomenal paper which he wrote on why he as a teaching elder, a

Presbyterian teaching elder, has joined, or not joined, but attends an

Anglican church. And it's a wonderful, and anyone who knows Dr. Gordon knows he's a phenomenal churchman.

He has a very insightful mind for determining what is essential and what is non -essential.

And he really boils it down in that short paper as to why he, as an ordained

Presbyterian teaching elder, has decided to attend an

Anglican church and can do so in good conscience without violating his own personal convictions and scruples.

But his journey, his journey through helping out at Grace Anglican was paralleling my journey into Anglicanism myself.

While I was at Westminster, my wife and I were married.

I was a married student at Westminster. And we had a dream opportunity that every seminarian longs for.

And that is we got a work -for -rent situation. And anyone knows where Westminster is in Philadelphia.

It's very near Chestnut Hill, which is sort of the wealthy, upper crust end of Philadelphia where all the big money is.

And we connected with a very wealthy family that lived in Chestnut Hill.

They lived on a beautiful estate. The couple was elderly at the time. They were in their 70s, even their 70s or 80s.

And they typically would hire a seminary couple to come and live on the property and basically do caretaking work around the property, do grocery shopping, take out the garbage, help with chores around the house because they were too elderly to do that.

And this family were what I would refer to as old blue -blood Episcopalians.

And this was 1999 to 2002, 2003 time frame.

And this was when the Episcopal Church started to break apart. It was right after Gene Robinson got elected

Bishop in New Hampshire. And so there were a number of churches, Episcopal churches in the

Philadelphia area that were basically part of the catalyst of rebellion that was happening in the

Episcopal Church that began the exodus out of the Episcopal Church. And they had a confirmation.

It's interesting, I keep coming back to confirmation, but they had a confirmation service where they were among the first of the

American Episcopal or Anglican churches to invite African bishops over.

And if you know anything about the Anglican Communion, we value our ties globally. The global Anglican Communion is not a small thing amongst

Anglicans. We prize our unity and our connections with our brothers and sisters across the globe.

And when we were in difficulties when the conservative Anglicans or Episcopalians were in difficulty here in the

United States, it was actually many brave African bishops that came over and began to provide oversight and counsel and fellowship for some of these churches that were breaking away.

Many of them were losing their properties and lawsuits to the Episcopal Church. And so I had the experience of attending a confirmation there by some of the first African bishops that came over.

And one of the delights that I had was I found myself sitting next to the widow and daughter of Dr.

Philip Edgcombe -Hughes, who had taught at Westminster Seminary, was a noted

New Testament commentator, and also I had a book on my shelf at that time which I hadn't spent too much time reading, which was called

The Faith of the English Reformers. And like most folks, both

Roman Catholic and also my Reformed Presbyterian friends at the time, I always just assumed having seen the

Episcopal Church that Anglicans were all basically Roman Catholic white with women priestesses.

And I had my Boy Scout troop when I was a kid met in an Episcopal Church and occasionally would attend services and it looked very much the same as to what

I experienced in the Roman Catholic Church. So I just basically said, huh, they're just like Roman Catholics but they have married priests and they have women priestesses.

Interesting. But that is, that whole experience of living with this family, witnessing this confirmation with the

African bishops suddenly becoming aware that they were in a moment that they were in a moment of history that I came to see as paralleling the founding of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church back in the 1920s where they were breaking off from the liberal

PCUS and I began to realize that this was kind of like the

Episcopal or Anglican Machen moment in church history in North America.

And so I began to look around and realize that, first of all,

I read Philip Edgcombe Hughes' The Theology of English Reformers and I was utterly floored by how reformed it was.

Just shocked. The solos were clearly taught in the articles.

The marks of the church were carefully elucidated by either Latimer or Ridley.

I forget. I always confuse which one wrote an exposition on the marks of the church. But it was crystal clear in their writings.

And I was completely surprised to find how close they were.

And that is what kind of basically brought me up short and made me begin to pay attention.

I was privileged to have Dr. Sinclair Ferguson for a number of classes. And I always loved him.

Great man. One of my favorite preachers and authors. Absolutely. I still am so indebted to him.

And I still say his opening prayers at the beginning of class was worth the price of tuition.

I began to really become a student of steady prayer under Sinclair Ferguson.

His prayers were always so carefully thought out. Carefully laid out.

And I thought to myself, because I'd spent a number of years in evangelical circles, and you know, so many of evangelical prayers, extemporaneous prayers, were what

I regarded as the equivalent of cotton candy. You know, it was all around me,

I, my needs, not really thinking about who we were approaching and how we were approaching the sovereign creator of the universe, the most holy

God. And Dr. Ferguson really really brought me up short on how important prayer is.

And so I began to read prayers. I began to study prayer. You know, not only what we find in the

Psalms, but also in terms of the Protestant Reformers. And of course, like so many

Presbyterians and other Reformed folks, my introduction to careful prayer was the Valley of Vision by Arthur Bennett.

Yes, I actually conducted an interview paying tribute to the

Valley of Vision, and my guest was Reformed Anglican Roger Salter. Oh, Roger is wonderful, isn't he?

Oh yeah. Roger is a sheer delight. Roger was one of the first gentlemen, first Reformed Anglican blogs that I began reading in my journey into Anglicanism.

And he was among a cast of characters who were instrumental in making me comfortable in pursuing orders in the

Anglican Church as a Reformed Christian. But yeah, he's wonderful.

By the way, could you pick up where you left off there, because we have to go to our first break right now. Sure. So, long story short,

Arthur Bennett, I was stunned when I found out he was an Anglican priest. And that made me run over to the

Westminster bookstore and go and look up a book of common prayer.

And I pulled down off the shelf a 1662 leather -bound Cambridge pocket -sized book of common prayer, because once I found out that Arthur Bennett was an

Anglican, something clicked in my head that, oh yeah, that has something to do with the book of common prayer.

And so I went and got a copy of that, and I began to read that. And in fact, we'll pick up right there when we come back.

There you go. Wonderful. When we come back from our first break, if anybody has a question, whether you agree with my guest,

Pastor Richard LaPage, or you vehemently disagree, even if you're not a

Christian, we would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com with your own question. C -H -R -I -S -

A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are in either a leftist

Anglican church or Episcopalian church, and you are considering leaving because of the troublesome teachings and practice in those leftist and apostate churches.

Or perhaps you're on the other wing outside of Reformed Anglicanism, the

Anglo -Catholic wing, also known as the Tractarians and the Puseites and all other kinds of labels.

Well, we understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous, but if you're just asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

We'll be right back right after these messages. Hello dear ones, my name is

Justin Peters, and my friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

United States. We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest for the entire program is

Reverend Richard A. LaPage II, pastor of Reformation Anglican Church of Gray, Maine, and we are addressing the theme,

What is a true Anglican separating historic truth from the falsehoods of those who have hijacked that term?

If you have a question, email it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n - z -e -n at gmail .com

Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence and country of residence. And right before the break,

Richard, you were or Rick, as you requested I call you, you said that Arthur Bennett, the compiler, editor of the

Valley of Vision, a classic book on Puritan prayers, when you discovered that book, you also discovered that Arthur Bennett was an

Anglican, and you did some research and you got yourself a copy of the Book of Common Prayer, and that led you deeper into Anglicanism, and if you want to pick up right there.

Sure. Yeah, and then that made me consider, you know, the prayers that were contained in it, and it was very fascinating.

I began to discover, I know that T. David Gordon had also incorporated some of the corporate confession of sins that are found in the

Book of Common Prayer in his worship service at Christ Presbyterian, and I know in my travels around other

Presbyterian circles, I noticed that other Presbyterians had also adopted several of the corporate confessions of sins from the

Book of Common Prayer in their worship services. By the way, I'd like to give a plug right here to a friend of mine who

I've interviewed, Angelo Valley. I don't know if you know Angelo. Yes, I know Angelo. Very delightful young man.

Yes, he is pastor of Christ Reformed Church of Alexandria, Pennsylvania. He is a pastor in the

Presbyterian Church in America denomination, and yet he loves and utilizes the

Book of Common Prayer, and I'm not sure how officially it is involved in the worship of the church, but I know that he personally devotionally takes great advantage of it, and even posts articles from it on the internet, and I'd like to give him a plug as far as his website is concerned.

It is crcAlexandria .org crcAlexandria .org

That's for Christ Reformed Church of Alexandria, Pennsylvania.

But I interrupted you, and you can continue. Sorry about that. Well, in my course of study at Westminster, you know, that whole experience now, you know,

I wasn't beginning to become an Anglican at that time, but it was the beginning of the process of the steps towards it.

But I suddenly began to become more aware of how many reformed authors were in the curriculum at Westminster Seminary, not because they were

Anglican, but because they were so solidly reformed. I mean, J .I. Packer even taught a short semester at Westminster at one point in time, and as I mentioned before,

Phelps Edkin Hughes was a professor at Westminster Seminary, and it always made me wonder, how did these guys end up there?

Then as I looked at so many commentaries and so many theological discussions that were written by you know, by Anglicans, and even one of the standard textbooks,

I'm trying to, I've been scratching my head trying to remember the title, I can see the cover of it, but one of the textbooks that was a standard textbook at Westminster at the time for church planting had been written by an

Anglican. It had some of the principles for biblical church planting, and I just remember that growing awareness in the back of my head of how many

Anglicans had a great influence on the Reformed faith. And, yeah.

Well, the theme at hand is, what is a true

Anglican separating historic truth from the falsehoods of those who have hijacked that term. Now, the whole subject of Anglicanism is quite fascinating.

First of all, let me very briefly explain to our listeners why I so frequently have

Anglicans on my program. People have been wondering if I am an Anglican or if I am becoming an

Anglican. The answer to both of those is no, I'm a Reformed Baptist who has a very high regard for biblically faithful Reformed Anglicans.

And one of the reasons why this subject is so near and dear to my heart is that my father, even though I was raised

Roman Catholic before my rebirth by the grace and mercy of God, my father was initially

Episcopalian, was raised Episcopalian himself. He later converted to Catholicism when

I was a teenager. But, I think the subject became more deeply embedded in my mind and heart to discover and learn more about biblically faithful Anglicans when my uncle, who is now deceased, my uncle

Don, who was an Episcopalian, was so disgusted by the leftist apostasy in the

Episcopal Church that he converted to Catholicism. He did not become a

Reformed Anglican, he became a Roman Catholic. And that saddened me because I know of the heresies of Rome.

I know that Rome officially has a false gospel. If they condemn, especially very clearly at the

Council of Trent, they condemned the gospel of the Reformers, and I believe in the gospel of Reformers, obviously they must have a different gospel than I do.

If you, that is, are believing in the Roman Catholic dogmatic gospel, the one that they define.

So, that disturbed me, it saddened me, and I started to learn and discover more about biblically faithful Anglicans and that fascination continues to this day.

And it's a very controversial issue, because not only do you have the different extreme wings of Episcopalian and Anglicanism, you have the far -left apostasy, where you have clergy that deny some of the pillars of the faith.

Not all of them, obviously, but you have clergy that deny the deity of Christ, the virgin birth of Christ.

Bishop Spahn comes to mind? Yes. In fact, I was present at a debate that Bishop Spahn had with my very dear friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and Dr. Spahn was defending homosexual activity as being something compatible with Christianity, which is very interesting that somebody would be considering themselves an expert on something defining

Christianity when it's not even clear whether he believed in the existence of God.

So you have that wing, and then you also have the other extreme Romish Anglo -Catholic wing, which one can very often or even most often barely distinguish from the

Roman Catholic Church, except for the primacy of the papacy. And then even within those that identify themselves as Protestant and Reformed, you have so many divisions.

Every time I do a program on Anglicanism, I have people contacting me who are either thrilled and elated, or who are seriously questioning the accuracy and truth of whatever guest

I may be interviewing, even though they might be themselves Reformed and Protestant. And to be perfectly honest, at least two

Reformed Anglicans have contacted me in the midst of this program saying that they believe that they will disagree with much of what you have to say.

So it's kind of an interesting phenomenon with Anglicans. There are disagreements, even within the

Reformed camp, disagreements over titles, whether you should call yourself a pastor, a rector, father, reverend,

I could go on and on. Vestment disagreements, collar disagreements, and then of course the high church, low church disagreements, and whether or not to view

Anglo -Catholics and Roman Catholics as brothers in Christ. And of course, let me interrupt myself here.

I believe that I do have Anglo -Catholic and Roman Catholic brothers in Christ who believe in the biblical gospel.

I cannot be more kind than the Apostle Paul who believed the

Judaizers were false Christians and all they did was add circumcision.

From what we know, everything else the Judaizers did was in harmony with what

Paul believed and taught, with the exception of their insistence on circumcision.

And when the Church of Rome adds a lot more than that, how on earth could I say that they are my brothers in Christ unless they are

Catholic or Roman Catholic, I should say, in name only and believing in a biblical gospel.

But now that I've gotten my own voice out of the way, we have to already go to our midway break.

We started our first break a little bit late, so we have to go to our midway break right now.

Not a problem. And if anybody has any questions for Reverend Richard A.

Lepage II of Reformation Anglican Church of Gray Main, email them to chrisarnzen at gmail dot com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail dot com

As always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And please be patient with us, folks, because the midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, they are compelled by the FCC to localize geographically this program and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements that they air in the middle of the show while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you possibly can, provided by as many of our advertisers as you possibly can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

And we hope that many of you will purchase their products, use their services, visit their churches, support their parachurch organizations, but when you cannot do any of that, please

I'm urging you, please at least respond to our advertisers by thanking them for sponsoring this program.

That is, if indeed you love this show and you don't want it to disappear, please contact them and say thank you so much for sponsoring

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Also use this time to write down questions for our guest

Reverend Richard A. LePage II and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com, don't go away, we'll be back after these messages with more of Rick LePage and what is a true

Anglican. Back together again, yeah.

Back together again, yeah. Back together again, yeah.

Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including

Voti Valcum, Justin Peters, Daryl Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, and James White.

More than 20 other speakers will be joining us and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. We are excited to announce another new member of the

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us on Lord's Day in worshipping our

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402, or visit

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Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio and thanks for listening. Music As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshiped and how

He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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God -centered focus. Reading, preaching and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy and sobriety.

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,

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For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 - 385 -8333.

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That's lyyfc .org. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And my

Anglican listeners may be very interested to know that Solid -Ground -Books .com

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Before I return to my discussion with my guest today, Reverend Richard A.

LePage II, pastor of Reformation Anglican Church of Gray, Maine, on our subject of what is a true

Anglican, I just have a couple of other announcements to make. If you are a man in ministry leadership,

I emphasize the word man, you are invited to the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon, which is being held

Monday, September 27th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. It will be held right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, at the

Bongiorno Conference Center, and it is absolutely free of charge.

Not only is it free, but there is nothing that will be sold there. There is no ulterior motive or hidden agenda.

My late wife, Julie, in the 1990s, urged me to start treating pastors that I know to a

Christmas lunch, is how it began, and it was a great event. She insisted, I want this to be free of charge.

I don't want there to be any Amway products being sold or membership in Amway or anything like that going on.

I don't want any ulterior motives. I don't want any hidden agenda. I want this just to be a blessing to pastors that you know, a time of refreshment, relaxation, fellowship, feasting on good food, and being fed spiritually by the

Word of God by a very gifted guest speaker, and free books from major Christian publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom. Well, I have been doing this every year since the 1990s.

Even when my wife went home to glory, I still continue to do these in her memory.

So if you would like to attend, as long as you can make it to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and we have people coming from very far distances every year to these events, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put pastors luncheon in the subject line. Our speaker this year is Dr. Conrad M.

Bayway, and I am not exaggerating when I say I believe he is the most powerful preacher of the

Gospel alive on the planet Earth today. I am not exaggerating. He is pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

He is a Reformed Baptist, and he is absolutely extraordinary. He is our guest speaker, and we will also have the free books to give away that I have personally selected from major Christian publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom, all absolutely free. Send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and put pastors luncheon in the subject line. Also, thank you folks for praying for my oldest brother

John. As you know, he received a very grim prognosis from his doctor of having only six months to live, sadly.

Obviously, only God knows for certain when he is going to take my brother from this

Earth, but he very often gifts human beings who are physicians with enough skill that they can accurately predict very often the length of time someone has left on this planet just because of their experience.

But please pray that our sovereign Lord, our great physician, heals my brother, gives him more years of life on this

Earth, and especially that I know without question that he is truly a child of God and heading to be with Christ as Savior for eternity.

He has made some very promising and encouraging professions about his faith in Christ. Please pray that he continues to bear fruit in that way, and so much so to the point where any doubt or fear that I have in his regard is erased.

His wife also now has COVID pneumonia, so pray for his wife

Jan as well. And pray for Pastor Mac Tomlinson, a Reformed Baptist pastor near my brother in Denton, Texas, who has been visiting him and giving the gospel to him.

Also, folks, if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves, please,

I'm urging you to go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card, in that fashion. If you prefer snail mail, you will also see a physical address where you can mail checks via your local postal service made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

That will appear on the screen when you click support at www .ironsharpensironradio .com as well. Please remember that I never want anybody siphoning money away from their regular giving that they're accustomed to their own local church where they are a member in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

One of the main reasons I founded this show in 2005 was to be a friend, a platform, a helping hand, and an outreach from the local pastor and the local church to my audience.

I never wanted to be a hindrance or a harm in any way to the local pastor and the local church, and that includes financially.

So don't take money away from your regular giving to them in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Please don't do that. Also, don't plunge your family into further financial peril by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio if you're really struggling to survive.

Those two things are commands of God in Scripture, providing for your church and your family. Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God in Scripture.

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, you have money in the bank, collecting interest, you have extra money for recreational purposes and trivial purposes.

Please share some of that money with us so that we can continue to exist if you love the show and you listen to it often.

You download the free mp3s often. We are in urgent need of your help financially. The coronavirus pandemic hysteria has really harmed us financially greatly.

Our giving has gone down radically. People in our audience are hurting financially and have cut down on their giving or cut out entirely their giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Please help us replenish that which has been lost if you want us to continue airing this program.

Go to www .IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, theologically and doctrinally sound church, no matter where you live on the planet

Earth, I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches, including Reformation Anglican Church of Gray, Maine.

Therefore, wherever you live in any place on the planet Earth, I may be able to help you find a church, even sometimes within minutes from where you live, as has happened with many listeners in our audience from all over the globe.

Send me an email today if you are in that predicament of not having a biblically faithful church of your own.

I've sent it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That also goes for those who are visiting areas on vacation and they want to go to a biblically faithful church, or if they have family, friends, and loved ones who don't have a church home.

I may be able to help. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, but I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Reverend Richard A.

LaPage. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We are discussing what is a true Anglican. Right before the break,

I was saying there are so many divisions, even amongst Reformed Anglicans, even those that strongly identify as Protestants.

So tell us from here how you would identify as an

Anglican and what are the, in your opinion, the necessary requirements to accurately and honestly wear that title?

Sure. I think you raise a really good question. It's a question I get asked quite a bit, particularly from folks that are trying to make the, that are thinking about making the journey into Anglicanism.

It's a question that's been raised in the history of Anglicanism. I was thinking of J .C.

Ryle. I actually looked up the quote. J .C. Ryle, the first Bishop of Liverpool, who so many

Evangelicals and Reformed folks truly admired his writings. He wrote in the late 1800s, who is the true

Anglican churchman? That is a question which is shaking the established church of England to the very center.

Men complain with good reason that they feel puzzled, perplexed, embarrassed, bewildered, posed and mystified by the question.

Rationalists, ritualists, and Evangelicals. And to cut to the quick, the answer that J .C.

Ryle settles on is that the Church of England has provided a test of true churchmanship and the one that is recognized by the law of the land.

This test is to be found in the 39 Articles of Religion. And it was a question...

The question that you've asked is a question that I had to wrestle through as I made my journey into Anglicanism.

And I think that one of the things that we need to do is we have to establish a few steps that...or

standards that we begin to look at as we address that question.

And one of the first ones is folks who are looking at Anglicanism are bewildered by the number of factions that are in Anglicanism.

And we have to be totally honest about that. There is an insane number of factions in Anglicanism, particularly in North America today.

So much so that even Anglicans will say that we are worried that we're becoming a wax nose.

That we're becoming whatever anyone else...you know, whatever a person wants it to be. A buffet table almost.

And that needs to be arrested. And so the question is, is how do we arrest that? Well, first we've got to recognize that we are not any different than most other denominations or churches that came out of the

Reformation. I still remember a Baptist telling me that there is 80 plus Baptist denominations and growing.

Presbyterians have a great number of different Presbyterian denominations as well.

So the question that you have to ask is, how do you identify what is the true belief or definition of a particular church?

You certainly would not go to the Presbyterian Church USA to define

Presbyterianism. They are certainly not of the type of Presbyterianism that you would find in the

OPC or the PCA. You would not go to perhaps the CRC to define what are

Continental Reforms. Certainly the URC would take umbrage at that.

So you have to ask, well, how do you define what makes an Anglicanism? What is the true historic definition of the faith and piety of Anglicanism?

And to answer that question, we have to take the Reformation principle of ad fontes.

You have to go back to the sources. Today, in the contemporary American scene, you have lots of different paperbacks of people writing about their journey on the

Canterbury Trail, I think is the popular expression. And it basically gives their opinions or what they see as important in Anglicanism.

But one of the challenges is many of these pop titles that are coming out today, they're not going back to the sources.

They're not allowing the historic Anglican faith to define itself. And that's what we need to do.

What is unusual about, for example, Anglicanism or the Church of England is, unlike many

Reformed bodies, it is unusual in the fact that the original Church still exists.

The Church of England still exists. And one of the strengths,

I would argue, of being an established Church, and I know that there are many flaws or problems of being an established

Church, but one of the strengths of an established Church is that they have defined what their faith is, both in terms of Church canon law, but also in secular civil law.

And so the Church of England, one of the things that has preserved the Anglican faith over the centuries that so many people have recognized, is that the

Anglican faith and the Anglican piety is defined. And it's defined in what we call the formularies, and I mentioned them earlier.

And those are the 39 Articles of Religion. Attached to the 39 Articles of Religion are two volumes of sermons, which are the homilies, which expound on themes and teachings in the 39

Articles. Then the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, which is the last evolution of prayer books that was officially recognized by the

Church of England. And then attached to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer is the

Ordinal itself. And those are the standards of Anglicanism. They are recognized as bad a condition as the

Church of England is. We know that they are falling right on the heels of the Episcopal Church in terms of the number of liberal bishops, the number of heretical bishops, and churches that are beginning to gain power in the

Church of England. They still have not had the ability to change what defines the

Anglican faith. The Coronation Oath of the

Church of England also gives definition to what the

Anglican faith is. If you take a look at the Coronation Oath of the King and Queen of England, even today, that has not been replaced, the

Sovereign, when they are crowned, has to take an oath that says, Will you maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the

Church of England and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof? And will you, to the utmost of your power, maintain the

United Kingdom, the Protestant Reformed religion established by law? And as of today, that has not been changed.

So what is legally binding as the standards and definitions of the Anglican faith are going to be found in its formularies.

And it doesn't matter if various jurisdictions of the

Anglican Church, whether they're connected to the Anglican Communion or not, follow them.

It doesn't matter whether or not bishops enforce them. No one has the authority to change those definitions and those standards of the original

Church. The original Church is still existing and it still defines itself and has for the last 400 or 500 years what defines the faith and theology of Anglicanism.

And in its very earliest canon laws, the 1604 canon,

Anglican priests were, upon their ordination, required to ex animo, swear subscription to the

Thirty -Nine Articles and swear to not deviate from the theology and the liturgies of the officially sanctioned prayer book.

And that held true for many, many centuries and we still find that.

It's a bit watered down in the modern Church of England today, but the intent is still there.

So what you have today is various revisionist factions who, because the enforcement of Church discipline has fallen to the wayside, get away with redefining

Anglicanism. I like to use the illustration of the police officer who is sleeping in the speed trap behind the billboard.

The speed is posted at 50 miles an hour on that road and people begin to realize that the policeman is asleep and so they drive 70, 80, 90, 100 miles an hour and they get away with it.

Well, if they ever replace that policeman with one who's actually doing his job and he goes and he enforces it and they say, well, we've always gotten away with driving 70, 80, 90, 100 miles an hour, he's going to say, the law still says it's 50 miles an hour here.

The fact that the previous policeman was not doing his job, not enforcing the standard speed on this road, the legal speed on this road, doesn't mean that the legal speed has changed.

The legal definitions of the Church of England, of the Anglican faith, have not changed because we have false sons and daughters who have introduced revisionist representations or misrepresentations of what the

Anglican faith is and because we've had false bishops who have refused to do their duty and enforce by church discipline the doctrines and the liturgies of the church that they were consecrated to be defenders of.

Does that make sense? Yes, it makes a lot of sense, and let me squeeze in a question from an anonymous listener.

My father is a member of the Anglican Church of England, of an Episcopalian church, and he calls his minister

Father, and his minister calls himself Father. I've noticed that when

Chris Arnzen has guests on his program from the Anglican background, there is a difference between guests that he interviews.

Some have called themselves Father, but Chris has refused to identify him in that manner respectfully because he does not believe that any clergyman should be identified with that title, and some call themselves

Pastors and some call themselves Rectors. Can you help me figure out the confusion over this?

Certainly. That's a modern innovation that came to us through the Anglo -Catholic movement. It's a practice that was adopted by Anglo -Catholics.

I have a great number of friends in the Church of England, and I had asked this same question of them when

I was first coming into Anglicanism, and they chuckle at it. It's particularly popular in North America.

It's not something that... It is happening elsewhere, but it hasn't taken on quite as much elsewhere as it has in North America.

But historically and traditionally, Anglican priests were simply referred to as Mister.

This is our Vicar, Mr. Jones. This is our Rector, Mr. Jones. This practice of using the

Roman Catholic practice of referring to their priest as Father is rather a modern innovation, and if you read the older literature, you won't find

Anglican priests typically being referred to as Father. And that's partly because one of the reasons why it's so popular in North America is that the main expression of Anglicanism, the

Episcopal Church, fell to Anglo -Catholicism, to the Tractarian movement, in the late 1800s, rather hard and heavy.

And so, in the United States, part of the reason why when people think of Anglicans or Episcopalians, they think of Roman Catholic light, and yet many of the practices and things that have been adopted, you know,

Roman Catholic vestments, for example, even the architecture that many

Episcopal churches have in the Anglican churches are adopting, are not historically

Anglican. They're really something that came about in the late 1800s once Anglo -Catholicism gained supremacy.

The canons of the Church of England called for not an altar.

There's no altar mentioned, for example, in either the Book of Common Prayer or in the canons of the

Church. After the English Reformation, they were to be replaced by a table, a plain wooden table that was capable of being moved for the

Lord's Supper down into the chancel so that the Lord's Supper could be celebrated from what is called the

North Side, which would be a whole other discussion for another time.

But the practice of referring to the table in the Church as an altar is also something that comes to us through Anglo -Catholicism and not through historic

Anglicanism from its founding in the English Reformation. But yeah, no,

Father is a... I don't get to... I have some folks that came out of more

Anglo -Catholic or Episcopal churches in our church plant. They will refer to me as Father.

I don't make a big deal out of it, but it's not a typical historic title for an Anglican priest.

It's just something that's an affectation that's been adopted and kind of took off in North America because of the

Anglo -Catholic movement. Yes, the listener, the anonymous listener, was correct that I...

and I mean no disrespect to an occasional guest that identifies himself with that title,

Father, but I refuse to call a person who is a minister

Father. But one of the other differences that most Reformed folk have with Anglicans, even if we agree on 99 % of other theological and doctrinal issues, is the whole concept of a minister being identified as a priest.

We believe that there is a priesthood of believers, that is, all Christians are priests, not in the sense of the

Old Testament or in the sense of the Roman Catholic understanding. And we do not accept the explanation that it is an abbreviation of Presbytos, where Presbyterian comes from, but if you could respond to that.

Well, I mean, we... again, historically, when you look at the development of the term priest in English, it comes from Anglo -Saxon, and they basically took the word

Presbyteros, okay, and in England, as English began to develop, it was shortened to Prest and Preost, and eventually developed into the term priest.

It has nothing to do with the idea of a sacrificial priesthood, speser dote, that is used in the

Scriptures. And so, in the Anglican Church, and you can see this very clearly in the

Ordinal, the Ordinal is very clear to identify that we are being ordained as Presbyters, and that this term is used in our ordination service.

And so, many Anglicans have, you know, Diarmuid McCulloch has explained this.

J .C. Ryle talks about it. Also, Griffith Thomas has a big section on this in his 39

Articles, is where we got this. Historically, we, you know, the

Roman Catholic understanding of priesthood, but it came from a bastardization of the term

Presbyteros, or Presbyter. And that's exactly what I am. I am a Presbyter. And you'll see that in our

Ordinal service, we are ordained as Presbyters. And Cranmer really emphasizes this as well.

Cranmer has the, the ordination service changes to its final form, which is in, during the

Middle Ages, when priests were ordained, they were given a chalice and a patent to symbolize their sacerdotal office.

As Thomas Cranmer begins to work on changing the theology of the

Church in England, and he begins to develop the various editions of the Prayer Book, you'll see that in the ordination service, his thinking is changing about the role of ordained office.

And he moves from giving the newly ordained man a chalice and patent to giving him a

Bible and a chalice and patent. And then in the final official ordination service in the

Ordinal, they no longer give to the newly ordained priest a chalice and patent, but they give him the

Word of God, and they charge him to preach the Word of God. And that reflects the theology of the

Church of England in their understanding of ministry, that it is moved from a sacerdotal office to an office of prophet, of proclaiming the

Word of God, which is very much in line with all the other Reformed bodies that come out of the

Reformation. And you can see that by consulting the 1552

Book of Common Purse right there in the back. Don't take my word for it. Susan Margaret of Dauphin County, Pennsylvania says, you mentioned earlier that the

Church of England still exists. Isn't that really, she says, isn't that really in name only?

I am quite confident that both the Anglo -Catholic and the Protestant Anglicans of centuries ago would call for the execution of most in leadership in the

Church of England today, and would not even recognize them in the way that they teach and live.

Well, certainly she's probably right. Yeah, I mean, I think that Thomas Cranmer, if he were to be standing in this grave.

However, we're talking about what defines the Anglican faith. And the original

Presbyterians, probably the original Presbyterian Church, or the original Baptist Church, don't exist either in their original form.

But how do you define Presbyterians? Well, you go to the Westminster Standards, right? And, you know, if you're a

Baptist, is it the 1689 London Confession? You go to that. If you want to determine what's a

Continental Reformed Church, do you go to its current expression,

CRC, as apostate as they are becoming or have become?

Or do you go to the three forms of unity, as they were originally written, okay, and established?

And so what I am saying is that if you want to understand what true Anglicanism is, you must go to the final form and the final officially or legally defined standards and definitions that defined our faith and our piety.

And those are the 1571 -39 Articles and the 1652 Book of Common Prayer. And when we come back, you can pick up where you left off when we come back from our final break.

And if anybody else wants to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Rick LePage, right after these messages from our sponsors.

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Welcome back.

We have Mike from Monroe, New York, who says, please have your guest describe what he meant.

Let's see here. I lost my place. Oh, what was meant by the term High Churchmen?

Two of my favorite Anglicans are Charles Simeon and, of course, J .C. Ryle, who are usually called

Evangelical Anglicans. What would be the difference between Evangelical versus High Churchmen?

And I think they could be both, if I'm not mistaken. Go ahead. That's a good question,

Chris. It would possibly be a big discussion, though, and it would be one, something that we probably should revisit at another interview.

I can give, because I also want to make sure that I give an adequate answer to that wonderful question the lady asked earlier, because we hadn't finished answering that question yet.

But briefly, I'll give a brief answer to his. Within Anglicanism, particularly within confessional

Anglicanism, there is a breadth that you might not find, say, in Presbyterianism.

We have two ends of the spectrum within confessional Anglicanism, and that would be

High Church and Low Church. And historically, and a great expositor of these distinctions would be,

I think you've also interviewed him before, is Peter Robinson, who is the Presiding Bishop of the

United Episcopal Church in North America. Yes, and he actually has people who are clergy who are both.

I don't mean the same clergy. He has clergymen who are High Church and clergymen who are Low Church.

Right, but the term High Church nowadays usually means

Anglo -Catholic, and that's not historically what it meant. Within confessional

Protestant Anglicanism, there were two factions, and one of them is the

Old High Churchmen, and then the Low Evangelical Churchmen. And sort of a really rough rule of thumb is, they provided a kind of a healthy, what

I would regard as a healthy tension within Anglicanism. The Low Church, the Low Church Evangelical Churchmen would tend to push the

Articles, or push our understanding of the Articles, in a more Reformed direction.

The Old High Churchmen would never have considered themselves

Anglo -Catholic by any stretch of the imagination. They tended to be more influenced by the

Lutheran side of things, and they would tend to push a more Lutheran aspect of Anglicanism.

And so that's who we would refer to as the Old High Churchmen versus the Low Churchmen debate. Once the

Anglo -Catholic movement arose, it almost completely wiped out your traditional

Old High Churchmen. There are very few of them around today. Peter Robinson himself would probably identify as one, although I'd let him speak for himself.

But the term High Church has come to really almost be the equivalency of an

Anglo -Catholic today, which is not historically what it originally was. Does that make sense?

Yes, and I've interviewed a minister in the denomination where Peter Robinson is a bishop, or the bishop.

Yes, he's a presiding bishop. Yes, I've interviewed Frank Castellano, who is certainly very outspoken about being,

I'm sorry, Paul Castellano. Yes, I know of him. Who has even written a book defending his understanding of High Churchmanship, even though he is a five -point

Calvinist and thoroughly Protestant. And I have conducted an interview with him on that book.

Right, and this could dovetail into finishing the answer for the lady that asked earlier.

One of the things that you have that is very important within Anglicanism is the term conformity.

Now, this is something that makes Presbyterians wince and non -conformist Puritans wince.

But, you know, in terms of being a Protestant Anglican, it is very important.

We do have this concept of conformity and non -conformity. Conforming Anglicanism is going to be very scrupulous about his adherence to the

Thirty -Nine Articles and to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, or the theology of it, as well as the explanations that you find in the homilies and the way we understand ministry and the ordinal.

Okay? What we have today is we have a lot of non -conformists, and I would certainly class

Anglo -Catholics as being amongst those. And these are people who do not conform to the faith as expressed in the formularies of the

Church of England, but have actually redefined Anglicanism, and given it the reputation of being the wax nose that so many regard it as, because they have basically added beliefs, doctrines, practices, and liturgies that do not conform or do not reflect the theology found in the

Anglican formularies. And of course you would distinguish between them and the non -conformists of the 16th century, who were persecuted by the

Church of England or fled England because of their non -conformist understanding, who were truly

Protestant. Right, but, yeah, right. And I think Lee Gaddis of the Church Society does very good expositions on this.

But the differences between confessional Anglicanism and the old non -conformist

Puritans was really not as great when you actually look at it.

I mean, basically, many of the things that they objected to was the use of robes, the use of the compulsory use or normative use of the prayer book.

Not normative principle of worship, but the normative use of the prayer book. Whereas you have today, in many of these factions,

Three Streamers, Angle -Catholics, Angle -Orthodox, Angle -Lutheran, groups that identify, factions that identify, still call themselves

Anglican, you have the introduction of doctrines and beliefs and liturgies which are at odds with what is espoused in the

Thirty -Nine Articles and in the prayer book. And that is a big challenge for us today, in terms of answering the question of who is the true

Anglican. And again, I would go back to the example of, if you want to find out who the true

Presbyterian is, do you go to the example of their false sons? Would you go to the way the

PCUSA today is behaving and what the PCUSA embraces and believes? Or do you go to the

Westminster Standards? And then do you compare the various denominations? You compare the OPC, the

PCA, and the PCUSA to see which one of those bodies, or which couple of those bodies, conform to the teachings that are in the

Westminster Standards. And I would say, to define the true Anglican today, is you would look at the faith and the liturgies of that Anglican priest or church and say, how close or how far are they from what is taught in the

Thirty -Nine Articles and what is laid out in our liturgies in the 1662

Book of Common Prayer? And I think that that is what you need to kind of do in order to make sense of the confusion that's out there.

Does that make sense? Yes, and we have time for one more question that requires a quick answer, because we're almost out of time.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, Isn't asking the question, what is a true

Anglican, really a moot point since Anglicanism was never a monolith?

I would disagree with him, because what we see today does not define, it's not the definition historically of Anglicanism.

When you go back to historic Anglicanism, and you can go back as far as Edward VI, you can go to Charles I's preface to the

Thirty -Nine Articles, there was a very definitive definition of the faith of Anglicanism.

And that preface is still attached, legally, to the

Thirty -Nine Articles. And in that, he very carefully says, these are for the avoiding of dissensions and diversities of opinion as to the faith of the

Church. Okay, we're out of time, and I want to make sure I announce your website again, ReformationAnglicanChurch .org,

ReformationAnglicanChurch .org, and I urge everybody listening to tune in tomorrow, as we have what

I'm sure will be a fascinating discussion with historian Bill Potter, on exposing the lies of the 1619

Project Fraud. That's tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Thank you so much,

Rick LePage, for being such a superb guest. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives, that Jesus Christ is a far greater