Luke 2:22, Steven Anderson, Ireland, TR Onlyism, and You!

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00:16

Greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line back here in Phoenix after a quick trip back east

00:24

Mainly gonna be home for a while. I have a one one little trip to California to do in a few weeks

00:32

But man, it's been crazy and it's good to be back here I want to jump right into it because I want to try to need to try to limit it today to an hour especially in light of of the

00:46

Commentary from the Federalist. Did you see the yeah, there was I think it was the Federalist that had an article about Must listen to theological podcasts which included the briefing the line of fire

01:03

There are a couple I did not recognize because they went off in other areas But we got we got mentioned right in the middle of all that With along with the line along with the line sometimes tends to be a little long

01:18

And yeah, we we are a little bit longer than than most of the others I mean the briefings normally less than half an hour.

01:25

It's used to be less than 20 minutes now It's about 25 27 most of the time but anyway, so I Guess we need to get done in an hour at least

01:41

From that for that that perspective, but I have some other things got to run and do we're gonna do another program tomorrow as well so there you go,

01:48

I Again had time on the plane to do some reading and ran across a yeah, someone just Posted the article in the chat channel if anybody wants to look at that for today

02:05

May 15th Provocative substantive theology podcast need to check

02:12

That's not the title. Obviously, that's the URL, but I suppose I see if it pops up here

02:19

Quick enough and I can give you a little why does this why does why is chrome doing that?

02:24

I don't know why chrome is doing that so yeah, this is Holly sheer Seven provocative substantive theology podcast need to check out ask

02:34

Pastor John the briefing the dividing lines number three Episodes are on the long side coming in around 90 minutes or longer.

02:41

So we need to be less than less than that What can I say

02:47

What can I say issues, etc line of fire? Even Michael Heiser gotten there and Michael.

02:54

Hi We're gonna do some more I'm gonna have to do some more like it looks like he's getting in some weird stuff some more weird stuff

03:01

Getting well, he's been in for a while. But you know, I've had his anti Calvinist Comments on this computer for over a year, and I don't know why

03:12

I haven't gotten around to it. But but Anyway, so yeah, you can find that on the

03:17

Federalist today if you want to check that out As I said, I had some time on planes once again

03:23

In the process ran across the discussion of the true emendation conjectural emendation

03:34

That is found in the Texas Receptus at Luke 222 now this is a text that I have made reference to a number of times in The past in fact if I am recalling correctly,

03:48

I didn't take time to look but if I am recalling correctly I Attempted to get

03:53

Doug Wilson to talk about this in our original credenda agenda

04:02

Debate thingy -mabob II we did. I don't know how long ago and I Think that was sort of when he said well, you know, we we don't need to get into the details type situation

04:13

I don't remember if it came up in the in the book thing we did. But anyway Luke 222

04:22

Says and when the days of their purification According to law of Moses were completed.

04:29

They brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord. I suppose Context I was good and what eight days had passed look to 21 before his circumcision.

04:38

His name was then called Jesus The name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb and when the days of their purification for their purification according to law of Moses for completed they brought him up to Jerusalem to present the

04:51

Lord as It is written in the law of the Lord every firstborn male That opens the womb shall be called holy to the

04:58

Lord and to offer a sacrifice According to what was said in the law of the Lord a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons and that's when they encounter

05:05

Simeon to whom the Lord had You know revealed certain things and and you you have his song and so on and so forth so the issue is that in the

05:18

King James in the Texas Receptus Well, because it's in the Texas Receptus in the

05:23

King James It says and when the days of her Purification according to law of Moses were completed and Modern translations say their

05:36

Purification now I Have discussed this in in my book for a number of years

05:44

I even gave a note in my book to dr. D a weight and His assertion that if you read as The modern translations and modern

05:58

Greek texts read That you are accusing Jesus of being a sinner Because if they're going to the temple and the offering the sacrifices that mean

06:09

Jesus had to be a sinner Which of course would also mean because Jesus was baptized in the Jordan by John. They had to be a sinner, too it's a vacuous argument, but it's out there people make that kind of Argumentation once again, the the key issue is what did

06:25

Luke write or is that the key issue? For those I would argue that for those presenting the

06:33

TR as the confessional text Pretending and I do believe it is pretense pretending to do confessional

06:44

Textual criticism when you're not doing any criticism at all, you can't by definition for these individuals

06:53

This is a very very problematic text And for these individuals, it doesn't matter what

07:00

Luke wrote Doesn't matter If you make the

07:05

TR the standard then You need to do that on a theological basis and you need to say that's what

07:13

God wants us to have and so we Can't know and don't need to know and don't need to worry about knowing

07:21

What Luke originally wrote? we have the text of Septus and that's that now there's all sorts of ramifications to this which

07:31

I've been trying to point out to people for a long time now, but That's the situation

07:36

I think you find yourself in so What about it? I mean on on the simple level of well, it would

07:46

Sound nicer if it said her purification How did it get there what what is the evidence well the reality is

07:56

That This is yet another example of where you have to use a unique set of arguments

08:08

If you are a TR only representative

08:16

You have to use a unique set of arguments to substantiate this one particular reading

08:22

That you will never ever ever ever ever use for any other reading anywhere else in the

08:28

TR Just as it's a unique set at Revelation 16 5. It's a unique set at Revelation 14 1 it's a unique set of arguments in Luke 2 22 every time we go over this what you discover is that which

08:45

Manuscripts you privilege Which manuscripts you give the greatest weight to will change from argument to argument to argument to argument

08:54

Because you're not doing criticism You're doing traditional defense. You have a traditional text

09:00

You're defending it and you have to use different arguments for each of the unique readings There is no one consistent system.

09:07

That's why despite Gene Kim's incredibly childish haranguing he never understood the challenge that I made and that challenge has yet to be met as far as I have any knowledge of and I do not believe it can be met and That is to those who promote the

09:27

TR give us a consistent Textual critical methodology when applied to the current manuscript tradition would derive the

09:38

Texas Receptus The readings of the TR as it exists today as is reflected in the translation of the

09:45

King James Version of the Bible It can't be done it's it's simply impossible and That's the error of your system

09:53

You can continue to believe it all you want. You can you know, pretend that you feel good about it or whatever

10:00

But it's untenable on a truth level and that should be the level that we are most concerned about so What if you are if you are what does the majority text read

10:12

Luke 2 22, well it says their purification their purification

10:21

That is the specific reading and when you look at the

10:26

Nestle Island apparatus, the only variant that is noted is The reading that out to instead of our tone the singular instead of the plural in Codex Bezae Candabrigiensis the again the

10:43

Translation that was That we call the Living Bible of the early church that Beza did have access to himself

10:52

Beza being Calvin's successor at Geneva his 1598 edition of the

10:57

Greek New Testament being extremely Heavily weighted by the

11:03

King James translators I think I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty certain that the king that the 1598

11:13

Beza is the most like The TR of any of the printed texts that were used to create the

11:23

TR so in other words all of Beza's previous editions all of Robert Estienne Stephanus's editions and all of Erasmus's editions,

11:33

I think the 1598 is the one they used most often But there are variants from from even that so Codex D Has out to there are other

11:44

Latin manuscripts the Sinaitic Syriac and a few Sahitic manuscripts that likewise

11:50

Have the singular masculine But none that have out taste which is the reading of the

11:57

TR now I was in the Research that I did years ago 25 years ago this year

12:06

Wow, that's hard to believe. No way 20 Yeah, that's 25 years ago.

12:15

Yeah, I Need to buy a big bottle of Geritol just have it sitting in here, you know 25 years ago

12:25

I did track down one minuscule number 76 that had out taste

12:36

But the point is if you are a majority text advocate There's only one answer to the reading here and it's out tone their purification and The specific manuscripts that you will use

12:54

Well, let me back up. There's no evidence That Beza had access to any

13:01

Greek manuscripts that said out taste He was following what's called the completion polyglot

13:09

Which as we know was actually printed prior to Erasmus But not published till years after Erasmus is initial

13:18

Edition and Erasmus has out tone. He has the well, he has the reading of the

13:24

Greek manuscripts in at this place So here you have

13:30

Beza Following the Roman Catholic collation and really giving a lot of weight to the

13:40

Latin Vulgate at this point now once again We've been looking at commentary on the subject from Yann Crans and He gives us a

13:54

Citation from Beza. You'll see what the relevance of all this is. Hold on Typical is also a

14:00

Beza's adoption of the reading out taste instead of out tone Luke 2 22 He writes of Mary out taste in the

14:07

Vulgate Use of him her apparently of Mary for it is proper to fulfill the law.

14:13

Although not listen For although Mary after Christ's birth would be all the more sanctified

14:22

Now that's Calvin's successor at Geneva saying that In any case we have expressed the antecedent itself in full in order to avoid any ambiguity

14:35

Most manuscripts codices have out tone and Thus origin reads also followed by Erasmus, but here's here's what

14:43

Beza says, but I fail to see how this could fit While the law of purification only concerns the mother and so I prefer to follow the old edition the

14:54

Vulgate With which the completion edition agrees In 1582

15:00

Beza adds an explanation of the textual corruption as he sees it the textual corruption the

15:07

TR guys will accuse me and modern textual critics of talking about corruption and yet Beza Beza B E Z A Beza.

15:21

Yeah him the successor of Calvin Speaks of textual corruption in These words quote indeed most probably the true scripture has been corrupted and why

15:37

I'm emphasizing that because just a few months ago, I listened to a Podcast that dr.

15:43

Riddle did where he spent a lot of time talking about the title of Metzger's book restoration the corruption and restoration the text of New Testament and These guys actually think they really think we don't believe the text has been corrupted

15:59

We are we believe God has preserved us and we don't believe in corruption, but we use a text that was collated and created by Erasmus and Beza both of whom

16:08

Believe that it had been talked about it and even made changes based upon their theory of it But let's not worry about that guys.

16:14

You can't hold this position and keep a straight face That's why I said this book is such a one -volume destruction of your position.

16:25

You can't do it Ah Anyways, indeed quoting

16:30

Bayes again indeed most probably the true scripture has been corrupted by those who dreamt of Diminishing Mary's holiness to some degree in this way now.

16:45

I always get really nervous when

16:51

I See people fiddling with the text based upon what they are

16:57

Speculating somebody in the past might have been thinking because I don't know what people in the past were thinking and guess what neither do you and So when you start playing around with the text based upon your speculations, it reminds me of you know, when we had a discussion a number of years ago about the

17:18

Prick of a adultery the story of the woman taking an adultery in John 7 53 3 8 11 Augustine's comment was brought up that he theorized that That had been deleted

17:32

By people by certain manuscripts that had been deleted by people And he theorized it was because they wanted to have a less stringent

17:43

Or that they were scandalized by Jesus's less stringent law that allowed the adulterer adulteress to live as If he could have any idea what someone's speculation might be

17:57

The reality was that the manuscripts The vast all the manuscripts we had before Beza can to bridges do not contain it

18:06

That particular reading in John 7 53 11. So anyway So here's

18:12

Beza and Most probably the true scripture has been corrupted by those who dreamt of diminished

18:20

Diminishing Mary's holiness to some degree in this way. So he goes with a reading not found in any

18:27

Greek manuscript he possesses But only found in the

18:33

Competentian polyglot Now how many places would you have to change in the

18:40

TR? if you used that Argumentation consistently across the text of New Testament, but you don't and you won't and you can't that's the point

18:52

That's the point so this annotation and especially the 1582 edition addition is

18:59

Exemplary of Beza's approach towards the text in this case. The Greek text was changed from Auton into Autace and for the translation even

19:09

Maria of Mary was adopted. So Mary's name was inserted It is however not a conjecture for his

19:18

Beza indicates expressly he follows the choice Actually the conjecture

19:23

Made by the Competentian editors which reflects the Vulgate Beza's choice of reading was to be influential as it was followed by the

19:31

Elsevier editions and by both the Geneva Bible and the King James Version of the

19:37

Bible and that reading was based on Beza saying

19:42

Well, um, I fail to see how this could be could fit That's not how you do textual criticism

19:51

Same thing when you talk about prophets or Isaiah the prophet Before we came to understand or had discovered enough ancient manuscripts

20:01

Scrolls of the prophets to know how they organized the scrolls and and had the minor prophets

20:07

Subjugated to the major prophets and the head of the scroll would be the name of the scroll before you knew all that stuff

20:12

People are going well, I just don't see how this fits. Well, that's because you don't have enough information yet You don't change the Bible because of your ignorance

20:19

And when we discover it discover it historically then you stop doing it So there is no excuse at Luke 2 22 none there isn't and so if if you're sitting there and you're

20:37

Reading Luke 2 22 going. Well, I don't know. I'm glad I've got confidence now in my

20:42

Bible I don't have to worry about textual criticism anymore Okay There you go

20:51

Um What can I say and I don't I don't do this to to Engage in genetic fallacies or anything else

21:03

But this is the same reasoning that Steven Anderson uses it is

21:11

Want to prove it? Well, okay now before I do this because I've had this queued up on how many times now

21:18

Um Steven Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, Arizona Did a 10 -part video series in response to my book 24 years after it was published

21:32

Oh 24 years after it was published and Yes, the the trash bin was emptied you'd use a junk right out of your skin that's pretty good

21:46

After we do that again sometime And yes, this is the very same

21:52

Steven Anderson who as I mentioned on the last program Was banished from the

22:00

EU From from the Netherlands, but from the European Union as a whole from mainland

22:07

Europe Um Just a few weeks ago He had announced he was gonna be coming over to do some series of revival preaching and so on so forth so he was banished from there and then

22:22

Has now been For the first time. Let me let me read this to you an

22:29

Arizona pastor who has said he prayed for the death of former President Obama and Praised the 2016 mass shooting at Florida's Pulse nightclub

22:40

Has become the first person banned from entering Ireland according to the Irish Times Irish Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan, that's an

22:49

Irish name signed an order under the Immigration Act of 1999 forbidding the entry of Steven L.

22:57

Anderson pastor of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe Ahead of a visit to Dublin that Anderson said he had scheduled for May 26th

23:06

His visits purpose was to preach to an unspecified congregation according to the newspaper.

23:12

It was the first it was the first Exclusion order signed since the law was enacted 20 years and Ireland has never kept anyone out

23:27

Until Steven Anderson decided to visit Anderson made national headlines in 2009 when he prayed

23:35

For Obama's death as well as after the 2016 Pulse shooting when he said which he said

23:41

Resulted in 50 fewer pedophiles and as repeatedly said the Bible calls for the execution of gay people

23:48

Anderson has also produced videos promoting holocaust denial and claiming the

23:53

Jewish Messiah is the Antichrist He has been banned from several other countries including

23:59

United Kingdom, Malawi, South Africa, Canada, Jamaica and all other European Union countries

24:06

Before the order was signed numerous Irish LGBTQ rights groups had called for Anderson to be prevented from entering the country over 14 ,000 people had signed a petition calling for Anderson's banning as of Sunday evening now

24:21

No one No one has any desire that I know of to defend

24:27

Steven Anderson's Wild -eyed insane behavior

24:34

The problem is That he's an easy target

24:41

But it won't be long until the same thing is happening to all of us who have never done any of these things

24:49

Who never prayed for Obama's death who never Commented about the

24:57

Pulse shooting the way that he did who obviously recognized that Holocaust denial is only for insane people and flat -earthers

25:06

This kind of stuff That's none of that is really why the

25:11

LGBTQ people were doing what they were doing and If they can put together a petition to ban him it will not be long

25:20

Till they're putting up a petition to ban all the rest of us who refuse to join their revolution and So it was not very long ago that Anderson's bank was it

25:36

Bank of America? I thought it was Bank of America. That's that's my recollection

25:41

I could be wrong, but I think it was Bank of America simply closed down his accounts and sent him a cashier's check for what he had in his in his accounts and I don't know all the reasons why but it sounds like it was we don't want to be associated with people like you and If that was it now if there was other reasons that I don't know about if there were shady dealing stuff

26:07

I I've not heard a word of that But the point is that Totalitarians totalitarian and Every single day brings further evidence that these people it was

26:26

It was over 20 years ago That I began saying that homosexuals did not want equal rights.

26:33

They want uber rates and I was obviously

26:40

Not even getting close to the full truth of that It's not just uber rights.

26:46

It's you must celebrate us You must celebrate who we are.

26:51

You must denigrate who you are And so These totalitarians want to shut down anyone on the other side and So, I don't think that it's right that they have the right to shut down your your bank account

27:14

I do not think it is and even in this situation We know exactly why

27:22

Anderson is being banned and it's real easy for us to go. Ha ha ha fine the problem is

27:30

It's gonna happen to us a lot sooner than we expect it to I've been in Dublin over the past couple of years.

27:41

I've been in Belfast over the past couple of years I was just in Amsterdam And the time is going to come without any

27:53

Holocaust denial without the Videotapes, I mean

27:59

I saw a videotape that was put up in Holland while I was there about this

28:05

And it was easy to string together a pretty impressive Amount of woohoo, and it was in English even though it's subtitled in Dutch So it was easy for me to follow and they even put the section there where he was getting tazed

28:20

So he's you know screaming on the screaming on the on the thing just to make it sound all the crazier.

28:26

Well What's really crazy from these people's viewpoint is not just his excesses, but his fundamental unwillingness to join their revolution and That's what they're gonna get us for too.

28:43

That's what's coming our direction It's not going to be long It's not going to be long until this stuff is is happening to us.

28:52

So we report the news

29:00

But then I have to say It's it's real tough situation

29:06

I fully understand why you don't want someone like that coming into your country I get it But isn't it better to Defeat them in dialogue and debate

29:19

Then it is just simply to you can't you can't Well, you know eventually they'll try to block them on the internet too, but I don't know that it's possible

29:31

So, I don't know I don't know It's it's a very concerning thing so like I said

29:38

Anderson Did a series of ten videos in response to my book.

29:45

We have responded to the first three chapters worth and I've been trying to get to the fourth chapter and I just Keep not able to get to it.

29:55

And so I want to get to at least some of it But I want you to to listen to what is said here

30:03

Because the connection I was making is he's making a lot of the same type of arguments that the

30:08

TR only guys do and they Try to they try to differentiate themselves from King James only us to try to push them away

30:14

Those are wacky crazy people. We really were just confessional reformed guys doing in -depth study dadadadadadada

30:21

But the fact is when you hold to a position that Erasmus never would have held to That Robert Estiant never would have held to that Beza would not have held to You have to recognize something else is going on and It's it's a troubling thing.

30:42

So let's take a let's take a look. See if we can get through the part that I've got marked up here and I'll go ahead and No, he talks fast.

30:51

I'll have to leave at normal speed and We'll just see how far we get Karl Barth and many others and to a certain extent.

30:58

Okay would help if I was at the right one. There we go They both start with red So that was actually the other thing we'll get to eventually and that is looking at the reforming apologetics thing

31:08

But that sounded not anything like Steven Anderson. Let's try this one again 1516 and that he had limited resources and that he was in a hurry

31:18

Only looked at a half -dozen Greek manuscripts and he he's talking about Erasmus here.

31:24

It's just trying to get it out the door and yada yada yada But here's the thing. He also mentions that Erasmus followed it up with another edition in 1519 1522 1527 and 1535 and then he died in 1536 so the fact that he was in a hurry on the first edition or had errors in the first edition or Only had access to a half -dozen manuscripts on the first edition

31:52

Isn't relevant because of the fact that there are four other editions after that Where he had the time to go through and correct things and fix things and clean it up Not only that but now this is this is the whole point.

32:06

That's not what happened That's not what happened. It's it's logical And Obviously if I were to and it wasn't my intention to write in a whole history of the text of Septus I only had one chapter

32:20

I was able to do it in but I would want to expand upon this in any future discussions of this

32:29

But it's logical to think Anachronistically here, but what

32:35

I mean by that We would think that when you put a book out if your first edition you rushed it out

32:45

That the second edition people would send you stuff and You know, we were assuming the ability to exchange information like we have

32:58

You know, we're thinking everybody's running around with one of these things You know where you can you can take pictures of things and send them to people and and I love watching people's faces when

33:09

I want to activate Google Translate on this when we're overseas and they haven't seen this and it'll live translate a

33:16

Menu right in front of you. It'll literally change what you're seeing through the camera so the the menu is in Dutch and It's showing it to you in English now.

33:28

It's very frequently very humorous English in the process, but the point is we think

33:34

We think anachronistically with this kind of ability that wasn't there and there were very very few other people who could even begin to interact with Erasmus's stuff and and His focus was on the

33:52

Latin he was only rather unwillingly dragged off into the

33:57

Greek and so Anderson thinks there's this purification process and all these people are no

34:05

The fact is certain of these readings, especially in Revelation because there was a

34:13

Functional bias against the

34:19

Book of Revelation. It's almost viewed as deuterocanonical Similar to the early church in some ways but you

34:29

You had mistakes made that would not be recognized for literally some in some instances 150 200 300 years and People were not checking it out.

34:44

Even the King James translators were not making reference in any serious

34:51

In -depth way to handwritten manuscripts in doing their translations. They're dealing with published texts and So they've got the the editions of Erasmus.

35:03

They've got the editions of Robert Estienne Stephanus I'm looking forward to getting my 1550

35:10

Stephanus back Because that that's his third edition and that's the one that has the first Extremely partial textual critical apparatus in it in the margins and Beza was very dependent upon that.

35:29

He really utilized that even though it was completely partial and Even though he didn't realize that one that the one big code of codex that he had,

35:40

Bezae Cantabrigensis D the Living Bible of the early church Was already cited by Stephanus as one of his manuscripts manuscript beta.

35:48

He didn't realize that So there are times he thought more than one manuscript had one reading when it was actually the same manuscript being cited twice and he

35:55

Was in error about it So this kind of stuff's going on and so we anachronistically think

36:05

About how a book would be edited today This information was so rare So hard to get hold of There were no

36:18

Compilations of manuscripts. There was no single way of referring to manuscripts. There was no catalog system and so The the process that Anderson logically

36:32

Assumes took place didn't take place You know we mentioned before the the humorous fact

36:40

That for the second edition Erasmus wrote to the printer and said, you know go use that You know a an edition had been printed since the first edition by someone else said use theirs in the

36:50

Book of Revelation and fix My errors in the Book of Revelation Not knowing they had used his in the

36:59

Book of Revelation It was like no one wanted to invest any meaningful time It's a little bit like Jerome when

37:06

Jerome translated was instructed by Pope Damasus To translate

37:13

The what we would call the deuterocanonical books the apocryphal books that Roman cats called you we call them apocryphal and He didn't really want to because he realized they were not

37:24

Viewed by the Jews as canon scripture and you can sort of tell that Wasn't done all that.

37:30

Well, it was sort of like, okay fine You know, that's sort of how Revelation was treated at this at this time frame

37:36

So no, there wasn't this Purification process going on all the rest that kind of stuff.

37:42

That wasn't that wasn't what was happening and So Anderson assumes it the facts are otherwise and So The relevance of my having stated

37:58

The rushed nature of the first edition remains relevant Literally almost a hundred years have gone by Since that first edition of Erasmus is

38:09

Greek text in 1516. So there was no press for time There was no, you know, we got to hurry up and we don't have a couple manuscripts

38:18

No Erasmus traveled all over Europe looking at manuscripts. He had access to way more manuscripts for his subsequent editions such as and Again why do you think that his focus was on the

38:33

Greek text? Obviously Anderson assumes this That's a logical assumption.

38:38

It's an errant assumption. That's not where his focus was. So what are these manuscripts? Where does he cite them?

38:45

What's the evidence of this? The argumentate, you know Codex Monfortianus is eventually presented to him, but that's from 1520.

38:56

That's a that's a Text was literally written simply to refute him on us and Beezer looked at a lot of manuscripts the

39:03

King James Bible translators themselves the King James Bible translators themselves did not They looked at printed texts they they did not collate do any fresh collations or anything like that at all and Even when you do look at what

39:20

Beza was looking at he He is almost completely limited in his comments to the

39:28

Small selection of manuscripts that Robert Estienne had that are found in the third edition the 1550

39:33

Stephanus that I have that's pretty much all he's using and that is in no way representative of The kind of data that we have

39:45

Access to today had access to a multitude of manuscripts. So to sit there and say oh well

39:51

You know the first edition of Erasmus had these problems in it Who cares the King James Bible translators did not translate from his first edition?

39:59

So he just sets that up as a straw man over and over again. Look at all these problems in the first edition

40:06

Well not relevant. There's plenty of time to get the kinks worked out over the course of literally almost a hundred

40:14

Years and see this is this is the hope you know, this is This is my text

40:21

The text is receptus. And so I'm going to hope that this happened I'm not going to provide evidence, but I'm gonna present the most hopeful case that I can that something actually

40:33

Fixed the problems. Okay. Now there are about five thousand eight hundred Greek manuscripts that have survived until now

40:43

Manuscripts, of course are handwritten documents. So there are fifty eight hundred of them. Some of them are complete

40:49

Some of them are just fragmentary but out of these five thousand eight hundred Greek manuscripts

40:56

If we just look at them and just take what the majority of those fifty eight hundred manuscripts say in any given verse

41:03

That's called the majority text Basically and if we follow that then as we just saw you're gonna have to change the

41:12

King James rendering at Luke 222 and other places Are you willing to do that?

41:18

Once you encounter someone who says no, I Will not change the

41:23

King James rendering of the TR or I will not change the TR in light of overwhelming evidence now you're talking about not a

41:35

Preservationist But a traditionalist, that's what they are Okay.

41:40

Now the King James Bible translators nor any of these other guys

41:45

Erasmus, Stephanus, Biza And all the different translators into other

41:51

European languages. They didn't just blindly follow the majority text But rather they examined it and tested it and came up with the textus receptus

42:02

Which is 99 % Following the majority text but sometimes deviates from it.

42:08

Now, why would they deviate from it? Okay, why not just blindly follow the majority text all the time.

42:13

Well This is assuming that they would have had any Possible way of knowing what the majority text was and they did not

42:24

This is again where anachronism comes in. We're looking backwards. We're very it's very easy for us to assume

42:32

Knowledge on the part of people in the past that we take for granted today, but that they did not possess how would you have known what the majority text was of the 5 ,800 that are known today

42:46

Any one of these men might have had access to or knowledge of 25 50 at most out of 5 ,800 so you're talking to 3 %

43:03

How would you know what the majority was? You wouldn't know what the majority was So all the argumentation about majority text ism or even

43:11

Byzantine text type Any of that stuff total anachronism when you're talking about the

43:17

King James translators, they don't know anything about this. They couldn't That that knowledge had not yet come to exist so You know, why even why even go there?

43:29

Well So, for example first John 5 7 is not in the majority of Greek manuscripts

43:35

But it is in some Greek manuscripts and it did make its way into the textus receptus Why well because of the fact that there were a whole lot of writers in the fourth century

43:49

Fifth century that referred back to this verse as being there. So even that is not that is not

43:58

Why the Kami Ohanian entered into the third edition of Erasmus and The thing is

44:05

I've narrated this in the book so he knows differently That is not why

44:12

It's there it is there because the fact that it's it made its way into the later form of the

44:22

Latin Vulgate and Even though Erasmus even though it is not a part of the

44:28

Greek manuscript tradition The very very late manuscripts that do contain it almost all

44:35

Contain it coming from the Latin not as a native part of its text

44:42

Most of them are diglottes Some of them come after the printing of the of the textus receptus actually or at least

44:48

Erasmus's editions It's there primarily because of Codex Monfortianus which was written in 1520

44:57

Now people today Try to defend the comma by making reference to similar language and just assuming

45:07

That that came from that like Cyprian yet Even Cyprian's words are much better read as not a citation of first John 5 7 which again is an anachronism

45:19

There wasn't even a first John 5 just somewhere in first John but as an interpretation understanding of what is being stated, there's no reason to take it as a citation at all and so the process whereby the

45:33

Kami Ohanian first John 5 7 ended up in the King James Version of the Bible is primarily due to a monk writing out a

45:44

Not very well done manuscript in the New Testament that includes it but in a different form

45:52

Then it actually appears in the King James Version of the Bible in the later editions of the textus receptus

45:57

If you've looked at Codex Monfortianus, it's a different reading That's why it's there it's not the

46:04

King James translators are sitting around well the small group of King James translators that would have been responsible for the book of first John which is

46:13

What maybe four three or four men at most It's not like they were sitting around going, you know, the overwhelming patristic argumentation here would be that this verse is present da da da da da da

46:26

Again, they don't have access To 95 % of the manuscripts of first John that we have today they don't

46:38

So it's in their printed text. It's Orthodox Go with it

46:45

Go with it. That's that's the reason and that's why I say in all these situations if What you want to do in textual criticism is to know

46:56

What John wrote or what Luke wrote or what Peter wrote? That gets rid of a lot of stuff that gets in the way and that pretty much does away with traditionalism.

47:07

It really does But a lot of people don't have that as their priority It it it's different it's different so that's not why

47:16

It ended up in there at all. So we press on. Oh Almost skipped a section similar color there that tells me that there aren't as many

47:27

Greek manuscripts of Revelation as there are of the other books in the New Testament if He's got six of them and none of them contains revelation.

47:35

So he has to borrow a Greek manuscript of Revelation From a buddy because the fact is that there are less

47:43

Greek manuscripts of Revelation than of other New Testament books this again is where a lot of us sit around and we we see the

47:54

Holocaust denying crazed Stephen Anderson and then we watch these videos and we go

48:02

Hmm, how many personalities are within this man? Because they don't really fit together very well at all

48:11

But he is correct We have fewer manuscripts for the book of Revelation and it what?

48:19

Erasmus borrowed was Reikland's Actually, it was actually a commentary in Revelation.

48:25

He had to extract the Greek text from a Latin commentary, which made it all the more difficult The work and led to numerous errors

48:34

Okay, so the Greek evidence is Not as plenteous. Okay, so therefore

48:40

When you're working with a book like Revelation, you're probably gonna lean on other languages.

48:46

Okay, just to Examine which Greek reading you're gonna go with.

48:51

There's a lot of King James only us that would be really uncomfortable With that level of discussion on Anderson's part.

48:59

I need to see a lot of them sort of sitting back on What are you talking about it it's just King James Bible you don't you don't talk about depending on other languages but Anderson Knows how to translate stuff he knows

49:13

German and so But then when pressed to be consistent about that collapses very quickly the

49:22

King James Version boy that would be pretty Mind -boggling and and and bizarre and far -fetched except that it didn't happen

49:30

Okay, because of the fact that these guys obviously When they looked at all their better Manuscripts of Revelation and when they looked at all the evidence and when they spent literally a hundred years on it

49:43

Between the efforts of Erasmus the seat and to see where the problem here is see how he's weaving in this purification

49:49

Scenario that did not happen could not have happened. It's anachronistic.

49:54

It's erroneous But he's weaving it in to into his defense Upon us and visa and the 54 men who translated the

50:03

King James Version You know what? They decided that the text that we have today in the

50:08

Texas Receptus is the correct text of Revelation They did the best they could

50:17

The small that there weren't 54 men working on Revelation the King James Version of the

50:22

Bible There was one committee that would have had had

50:29

Responsibility for that and it was probably one of the smaller committees so there might have been half a dozen and As far as we can tell all they are examining would be the

50:42

Latin Vulgate Erasmus Stephanos and Beza, that's what they have in front of them

50:50

As far as I know I've never seen any evidence that any Handwritten manuscript of the book of Revelation was collated consulted referred to utilized

51:06

By the committee that produced the translation of the book of Revelation I'm unaware of any evidence that all if mr.

51:14

Anderson has something that he would like to Present in that in that vein.

51:20

I'd be more than happy to see it Okay, so these errors that persist in the text, they're not errors at all.

51:27

They're right. Okay So the the errors aren't errors they're right because The King James is right.

51:36

And so if they agree with King James, then they are right Has nothing to do with history nothing to do with how the text came into existence has

51:45

It's it cannot it cannot be replicated and Isn't this exactly the problem the

51:52

TR to It's just one step farther if you're if your translation methodology cannot be replicated and Your textual critical methodology cannot be replicated

52:05

Then you got a problem because that means you're you're no longer dealing with the facts and history

52:11

You're defending a traditional text it's obvious with Anderson It's not as obvious With our modern even reformed

52:20

TR guys, but it is the same thing going on Okay, James White wants us to believe this far -fetched unlikely story that Erasmus just goofed up on Revelation and Nobody called him out on it

52:37

And That's exactly what happened That's what we discovered just a couple months ago

52:46

When for the first time in my reading in my understanding? learned

52:52

Because I had asked the same question. Why? would obvious errors in The Book of Revelation persist

53:04

Into later editions of Erasmus and then into Stephanos and into Bazaar.

53:11

Why? And it was because of the fact that Erasmus thought that someone else's work

53:20

Was based on better manuscripts and he told his printer Follow them.

53:27

They had followed him They had the same text so we can assume that the printer did what he was told to do and went

53:37

It's the same thing there's nothing fix so print it and so Erasmus figures that's cool and The book is not the focus of people's attention at this time frame and People are not running around with Greek manuscripts of it to be able to check it out

54:00

That's to see the assumption is that there were people that were doing it that there weren't there weren't that's the problem and so Yeah There were mistakes made by Erasmus that would not be detected for two three hundred years

54:16

There are mistakes made by Bazaar that would not be detected for two or three hundred years two or three hundred years

54:24

Especially in Revelation Stephanos, Bizaar, 54 translators.

54:29

They all just went along with it. No folks. They looked at the evidence and The revelation as we have it today is correct.

54:39

It's right Not what happened not even according to Erasmus not even according to Bazaar This is just wishful thinking

54:49

It's the right one It's it's it's that we can have absolute confidence Even if we can't give you one little bit of argumentation to actually substantiate it.

54:58

It's it's the right one. Okay For example in Revelation 14 1 there we go

55:04

It says in the King James and I looked and lo a lamb stood on the Mount Zion and with them 140 and 4 ,000 having his father's name written in their foreheads

55:14

Okay. Well in the New American Standard Bible representing the modern versions It says and I looked and behold the lamb was standing on Mount Zion and with them 144 ,000 having his name and the name of his father written on their forehead

55:29

So this is the reading that James White wants us to think is authentic, you know This is one of his many.

55:35

This is the reading of all of the Greek manuscripts This is the reading that everyone at the

55:41

Council of Nicaea would have seen this is the reading that everyone at the Council of Constantinople or Chalcedon would have read this is the reading that by any scholarly standard

55:52

Represents what John wrote Okay, and in the transcription from the one manuscript of the

56:04

Book of Revelation an error was made a simple homo e tell Utah an error in transcription that then becomes the basis of Erasmus and hence everybody else and Here's the danger here is

56:21

Anderson he's gonna make a whole argument Even done a whole video against modalism

56:28

Based on what his interpretation of Revelation 14 1 in the King James is

56:34

This is doing textual criticism on the basis of your theology What did we do at the beginning of the hour we saw base to do the exact same thing at Luke 2 22

56:48

The exact same thing oh But base as a scholar and Anderson isn't okay, but they're using the same

56:59

Methodology basis as I can't see how that can fit and this is I can't see how that can fit that's not how you do textual criticism and Once you start down that road

57:09

There's no stopping place There is no stopping place

57:16

That's how Joseph Smith did textual criticism. That's why you have the inspired version of the Bible That's why we absolutely have to have as our commitment

57:27

We want to know what Luke wrote what John wrote?

57:34

Don't give me this later church providential preservation stuff

57:42

You need to know what was originally written That is the goal.

57:48

That's the issue Pulls from the book of Revelation of just you know, I can't believe Erasmus didn't fix this mistake.

57:55

I can't believe that Stephanus and visa didn't catch this I can't believe that the 54 brilliant scholars who translated you starting to get the pattern now as If all of these people had exact had even access to information to be able to examine it had they wanted to do so There's no evidence that they did.

58:11

They didn't have the information. There's no evidence. They wanted to and And there wasn't again 54 scholars looking at Revelation there was a small little subgroup

58:23

So this sounds great if you want to continue to believe something and that's what

58:28

I hear in the TR stuff, too I want to continue to believe this so I'm gonna find have you read the commentary that John Gill gave on this?

58:40

John Gill wasn't a textual critical scholar first of all and And God bless him and thank him for a lot of the stuff that he did but that's not gonna tell me what

58:50

John originally wrote And if you're spending a bunch of time on that you're a traditionalist just admit it

58:56

You don't care what John originally wrote You care what you've got in your traditional text

59:03

James didn't catch this error. He wants us to believe that in Revelation 14 1

59:08

It's supposed to say that the hundred and forty four thousand have Basically Jesus's name and The father's name written in there for us now

59:19

You can just read those two and it's just obvious which one's right It's just James makes way more sense there the

59:25

New American Standard is clearly the one that's wrong And in fact clearly, you know, I don't want to go into a big long dissertation on the doctrinal implications of this change

59:34

But this is a very bad change that the New American Standard and the modern versions have made Okay by adding this his name and his father's name they added nothing that's what all the

59:46

Greek manuscripts say That's what they say. So again if you're gonna

59:54

Dispute this then you're gonna have to say Here's my unique argument for this one and then

59:59

I've got a unique argument for that one over there and another unique argument for that and I can come up with as many unique arguments as I need to come up with To be able to defend my traditional text, it's how it works.

01:00:12

It's how it works. Okay Well, I only had one other little thing and it says start here.

01:00:19

So that's a good place to do it so You'll notice the connection.

01:00:25

There is a connection. I hate to have to point out but there is a connection and That's why we we do this stuff so There you go, we are going to be back again tomorrow

01:00:39

I don't know. I don't I just don't think I've got time to queue up the material for that radio free

01:00:46

Geneva there is a I do have some material for an RFG and but again

01:00:55

That requires Now you're listening to it the first time which I've already done But then going back through and editing it so that you can get to the good stuff without listening all the bad stuff

01:01:04

Which is helpful, I mean I was skipping obviously there was stuff there that we weren't listening to that We didn't need to so I don't know between now and tomorrow.

01:01:13

I'm gonna have time to do that We'll see and if I don't we might just open the phones. We'll see but so we've got another program to do and We will be doing that tomorrow.