Why Florida's Amendment 4 Matters for Everyone

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The other side, the abortion industry has raised over 70 million dollars in the state of Florida, and they're deploying tens of millions right now.

00:08

The last two to three weeks in Florida, you are going to see just a relentless barrage of media door -knocking because they're going to be able to deploy tens of millions of dollars.

00:16

Now think about this, of that 70 million dollars, almost all of that has come from outside the state of Florida.

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That means pro -abortion groups from around the world recognize the importance of winning Florida, and they are pouring millions into the state of Florida.

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On our side, it's the exact opposite. Florida's fighting this battle alone. Where is the church nationally, internationally?

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Where are the pro -life leaders? Where is the pro -life movement nationally? And so the cry that I would give is, hey, wherever you are in the country,

00:47

Florida needs your support. Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience.

01:55

And welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and as always, I am your

02:00

Calvinist. Today on the show, I have Jason Storms from Operation Save America, and we're going to be talking about the amendments that are going on in several states regarding the subject of abortion.

02:16

And Jason is an expert in this area. He can give us a lot of great info. And the reason why

02:22

I'm rerecording my introduction is I want to let you know that I'm going to change around our interview a little bit. We had a great interview.

02:28

It lasted an hour, but the last 10 minutes was so good. I told him I'm going to move that to the front because he was talking about why these amendments are so important and what we need to do as the church, as believers in Christ, in regard to these amendments.

02:46

So I'm moving that up to the front. So if you notice a little bit of editing in there, and it seems like it's edited strangely,

02:55

I'm going to do my best to edit it well to move that up to the front. But the rest of the interview is me talking to him about the many times that he has gone out into college campuses and other places and had discussions and debates on the subject of abortion and asking him questions about how he engages people on this important subject.

03:15

So please stay and watch the rest. It's all great, but I definitely wanted to move the stuff about the amendments to the front because we've only got a couple of weeks before the election.

03:24

This is an important time to get caught up on everything that you need to know. Also, don't forget that this podcast is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida.

03:34

So if you're in the Jacksonville area, come visit us at sgfcjax .org. Also, we are supported and partnered with tinybibles .com.

03:43

You can see two right here. I've got the actual tiny Bible. This is the smallest printed Bible on the market. It can be kept anywhere.

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This one here you can read with no assistance, and you can carry it just about anywhere that you go.

04:08

So I wanted to remind you about that and remind you also about our Friday night live show that we've been doing for the last couple of weeks.

04:15

It's been going very well. You guys have been interacting with us. If you have questions that you would like me to answer on a live show, you can send those in to keithfoskey .com.

04:24

All right, guys, we're now going to move on to my interview with Jason Storms. And Jason, you are a father of 11 kids, you told me just a little while ago.

04:34

So I wanted to say thank you for giving you time to be on the show. I know when you have 11 kids and a ministry that taking time to do anything extra is a lot of work.

04:42

So thank you for being with me today. It's my pleasure, Keith. Thanks for having me, and thanks for wanting to talk about this really important topic of Amendment 4.

04:49

Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about your ministry and why it is that this is the heart and soul of what you want to do for the kingdom.

04:59

Yeah, great question. So Operation Civil America has been around since the late 80s. They were the leader in the rescue movement in this nation, which was the largest civil disobedience movement in the history of the country, larger than the civil rights movement, actually.

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And so it was Christians really just taking the command, thou shalt not murder, seriously, and looking at abortion and simply saying, what are

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Christians to do in a nation where our children are being murdered? And so they took action.

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They went to the streets, they went to the abortion clinics, and many would sit down in front of the doors of the clinic. Many would just be on the sidewalks being a voice, and tens of thousands of Christians went to the streets.

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There were tens of thousands of arrests, and it was a movie that created tremendous social tension and actually had led to the abortion industry being really up against the ropes leading up to 1992, which was a crossroads in the nation when

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Bill Clinton was elected. And so up to that point, we had 12 years of Republican presidents, the rise of the moral majority, and there was the sweeping wave of Christians sort of waking up to their political duties, which had largely been abdicated for a generation or more.

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And so that sadly all came to an end with Clinton's election, which oddly enough, if you remember, he didn't even get a majority vote.

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There was a third -party candidate, Ross Perot, that came in and kind of upset things. And so it was a very strange election time.

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And when Clinton got in office, one of the first things he did was pass what's called the FACE Act, freedom of access to clinic entrances, made it a federal felony to do some of those types of protests.

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And of course, the Biden administration has just used this. You've seen some of the headlines where some friends of ours, good

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Christian people, have been put in federal prison just for peacefully sitting in the hallway singing hymns of abortion clinics.

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And so meanwhile, they've allowed protesters to tear up whole cities, right? And there's been very little doing about that.

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But that is the nature of the fight we're in. What we recognize is this is a spiritual battle. Abortion is not just a political issue, although that's important.

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It's not just some social issue. But abortion is an issue that is deeply spiritual.

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It cuts to the very heart and identity of who we are as a nation. And certainly as a church, we who are called to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth, we must speak to this.

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We must seek to establish justice, defend the weak, and be a voice for these voiceless little children.

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And so that's what we've been endeavoring to do. My involvement, I came to Christ in the late 90s in New Orleans, Louisiana.

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My dad was a pastor down there, but I was wayward and was raised by my mom. And we lived all over the country.

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But at 19, I came back to the Lord and I had a girlfriend that was consenting to an abortion. So I was sort of the stereotypical, irresponsible, selfish young man raised in this culture, raised by the entertainment industry without guidance and mentorship and a product of sort of the deconstruction of our

07:56

Christian values in this country. And so, but when I came to Christ at 19, my dad took me to an abortion clinic in New Orleans and we began to do a lot of evangelism work together in the city of New Orleans, a rough city.

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And God gave me a passion and a zeal for evangelism, for reaching particularly young men like myself who are lost with the gospel message.

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And it really stirred my heart on this issue. Got involved with different pro -life ministries and eventually

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Operation Save America. And it's been an intense battle and a journey, but I've been thankful that God has preserved me in this despite myself for many generations.

08:32

And we've been able to see a lot of tremendous fruit come out of the work that we're doing as we seek to abolish abortion and wake the church up, really impact the culture even more broadly than that.

08:42

Well, that's amazing. And I want to get to the amendments because I have several questions and I know there are people who are in my audience, specifically people who have asked me, hey,

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I don't understand the amendment. I don't understand what it's saying and I don't understand why

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I should vote one way or another. What is it that is actually at stake in Florida?

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If we can start there, and I do want to ask you to tell us what other states have things going on, but since I'm in Florida and I know a lot of my listeners are in Florida and I've got three, no on four signs in my front yard, being very clear where we stand.

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But why is it that we want to take a position of no on amendment four? And what is the danger of amendment four?

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Four, essentially, it's a very short amendment to the state constitution and they need a 60 % vote.

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It will enshrine abortion up to nine months in the state constitution of Florida, essentially without exception, without restriction.

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So for basically any reason, it says viability, viability is 24 weeks, which is heinous enough in of itself.

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That's middle of the second trimester. So on its face, it says zero restrictions up to viability, up to 24 weeks, which

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I would say if they're going to pass, anybody who votes yes for that should be forced to watch an abortion at 18, 20, or 22 weeks.

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At the very least watch an ultrasound video of a baby developing.

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Look at a 20 week baby and you tell me if it should be okay to kill that baby. But that's not the discussion that's being had.

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That's what the media wants to silence. They don't want us to see the babies and to see that image, but up to 24 weeks without restriction.

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And this is after 24 weeks after viability, you just need a medical reason by a medical professional, which an abortion clinic worker is deemed a medical professional.

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So if an abortion clinic worker says, we think you need this abortion, then you're having headaches.

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You're having stomach pain. You're feeling depression. Yeah, then we probably should go ahead and abort.

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And we'll take your $5 ,000 and we'll abort your 30 a week old baby. And you say, well, that's so rare.

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Well, sure. It is rare, but it happens. Happens frequently. And in fact, abortion clinics love late -term abortions because those babies' bodies are extremely valuable for research.

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And they have whole procedures they've refined to be able to preserve and intact the brains and the kidneys and the livers and the lungs so they can sell those things and make money on them.

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So it's a heinous practice and industry, but this will enshrine abortion up to nine months without restriction in the constitution of Florida, which means for the next generation, wide open bloodshed in this state.

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It is a complete reversal of the trajectory that it's been going, right? Went from a 25 -week ban, pre -DOBs, post -DOBs, a 15 -week ban, then down to a six -week ban.

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And we're going to be working for life at conception next legislative session, win or lose. But they've been working the weeks down, so to speak, and it'll be a complete reversal of that trajectory and just have wide open wholesale abortion on demand in the state of Florida.

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And in the legislature, you won't be able to remove that. It will be absolutely horrific for the state of Florida. Absolutely.

12:21

Absolutely. Well, thank you for explaining that. And can you, for the sake of my audience outside of Florida, can you tell us what other states, and you may not have a list in front of you, but maybe you'll remember?

12:34

Yeah. We've been on the forefront of this for over a year now. So what's happening is after DOBs, the political landscape has changed a lot.

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And so we were already very deeply involved in the states and we already knew that the states and Republican leadership was very weak.

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We already knew that most, really every state legislature in this country was led by Republican leaders and conservative states who didn't really want to seriously end abortion.

12:58

We already knew that because we had been calling on them to defy Roe to exercise their lawful constitutional duty as governors and legislative bodies.

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And they didn't have to wait for Roe to be overturned. They could defy bad federal, unjust federal law. They have the lawful constitutional right in our system of checks and balances to do that.

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So we've been working on that message for years, basically nullify Roe. And governors could have done that.

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State legislators could have done that. They didn't, and they wouldn't. And they would defy the federal government on a host of other issues.

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Even DeSantis defied them in 2020 on mandates and all that, which was great. But then it's like, okay, don't tell me you can't defy the federal government on abortion.

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You defied them over here on something that's less significant. Anyway, so we knew this, but most of the pro -life movement didn't and was sort of trapped in the

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Roe paradigm and we can't do anything unless the court tells us. But after DOBs, the political landscape changed pretty dramatically.

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And so things have gone to the states. Now people are being able to see, it's like this big fog has lifted from the battlefield and we get a good picture now.

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Now people are able to see it really acutely that, man, the Republican leaders and all these pro -life states are pretty darn weak on this issue.

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And so there's been a lot of pro -life groups that have now started to try to toughen up and we've been trying to pull them our direction because we have been an abolitionist organization at the forefront of the abolitionist movement and helping to build and grow that.

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We're not the cantankerous, contentious, strifeful discord of abolitionists. There's sort of a fork in the abolitionist movement between those who you have to only use the word abolitionist to describe yourself.

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We're going to fight with you. And it's sort of, they blow up bridges. We try to build bridges and we try to bring good pro -life guys, well -intentioned folks, our direction.

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Let's work together on good substantive policy that criminalizes abortion, gives protection to preborn children, that gets the church involved and engages the church and gets the church in the process.

14:49

And so what we've seen now is in Michigan after Dobbs, they passed a state referendum that enshrined abortion to their state constitution, gave them some momentum.

15:01

Last year, they did this in Ohio. They've got signatures on the ballot to get it on the ballot in Ohio. And they passed in Ohio, something similar to amendment four here in Florida, where abortion now in the state of Ohio, up to nine months, wide open, and it passed with 57%.

15:17

So that was devastating. And so we were on the ground there fighting. It was incredible how many churches didn't even know what was happening, how little the nation even paid attention to it.

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And the pro -abortion side spent $30 million poured into Ohio. And so people are saying, well,

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Ohioans wanted this. They just wanted abortion. Well, then why did you spend $30 million from out of state flooding the state if the

15:38

Ohio people just wanted it, right? There was massive propaganda campaign. It was an awful election year. Voter turnout on our side was very low and voter awareness was very low.

15:47

Pro -life groups did a very poor job of getting the message out, mobilizing churches. And so we got our tails kicked.

15:53

And so after that, we began to sound the alarm. And so we realized this year, the abortion industry, this was going to be the tip of the spear for them.

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And here's the sad reality. We have never won when abortion has been on the ballot in any state.

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Anytime in the last 30 years abortion has been on the ballot, whether for or against, our side has lost.

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And so this is a big reason why the Republican Party presently is abandoning the issue.

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If we didn't lose Ohio last year, you would not be seeing Trump and the leadership of the Republican Party right now abandoning the pro -life position.

16:34

They have been getting our tails kicked.

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We've been showing ourselves to be weak and anemic. No, they can't do these amendments in every state, but there's a lot of states where to get a change to your constitution of your state, all you have to do is you get signatures.

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If you get enough signatures, you can get on the ballot. And in all these other states, it's simply a 50 % plus one majority.

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Florida is in a unique position that they need 60%. So we have to win here. But in these other states,

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Missouri is a big one, Arizona, Nebraska, South Dakota, Montana, also

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Colorado, Pennsylvania, Nevada. So the blue states we're going to lose without doubt.

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We're not going to win those, but the red states or red leaning states, we absolutely have to win some of these states.

17:29

So here is what is at stake with these amendments. So you have seven red states or red leaning states that in three weeks, whatever it is, two and a half weeks, we'll be voting on these.

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And again, all these other than Florida is a 50 % plus one. If we lose every one of those, that is the nails in the coffin for the pro -life position being a part of the

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Republican Party platform. That means the primary and really exclusive vehicle we have had to work politically for the last two generations will be gone.

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That will be a nail into the coffin of the pro -life movement. You say, well, there's a lot of other states will still work. There'll be a few states that we can still get some things done for sure.

18:11

But nationally, in terms of the national conversation, you are going to see an absolute distancing and a silencing of the pro -life position from the

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Republican Party nationally. It will solidify this decision that's being made right now to distance from the pro -life position.

18:27

And in four years from now, the debate about abortion will be much like what gay marriage is today, right?

18:33

How much discussion have you heard about gay marriage in the presidential election? How much debate have you heard about gay marriage in the midterm elections in 2022?

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Nobody's talking about it. What Republican leaders are standing up at the state level or nationally and saying, we need to repeal the homosexual marriage

18:49

Obergefell decision. Nobody. And that was just eight years ago that that was passed.

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Just eight years ago, eight years ago, 36 states had written into their state constitutions, marriage is between a man and a woman.

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It was overwhelmingly 70 to 80 % in 36 states. That's how popular the idea of marriage between a man and a woman was.

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It was eight years ago that was overturned. And within eight years now, the overwhelming consensus of both parties is it's not even a question to be debated.

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Gay marriage is just something we all accept. It's just here to stay. And that is exactly what many want for the issue of abortion.

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They want it to be taken off the table, to not be discussed. And so the only thing standing in the way of that right now really is the church in these states standing up.

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And so two things I'll say, and I'm being long -winded on this, but one is

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Governor DeSantis's leadership has been absolutely phenomenal. He is the lone governor that,

19:48

I mean, you talk about going to bat on this, he is setting the standard. If the governors in Missouri, the governor of Missouri, South Dakota, were following DeSantis's lead, we would defeat these amendments in every one of these states.

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DeSantis is doing a phenomenal job, but he's doing it almost by himself. And so our side, the pro -life side, we've not even raised $10 million.

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All the different groups collectively doing their different things. And we're doing our thing, and we're waking up the church.

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They haven't even raised $10 million. The other side, the abortion industry has raised over $70 million in the state of Florida, and they're deploying tens of millions right now.

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The last two to three weeks in Florida, you are going to see just a relentless barrage of media door -knocking because they're going to be able to deploy tens of millions of dollars.

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Now think about this, of that $70 million, almost all of that has come from outside the state of Florida.

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That means pro -abortion groups from around the world recognize the importance of winning Florida, and they are pouring millions into the state of Florida.

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On our side, it's the exact opposite. Florida is fighting this battle alone. Where is the church nationally, internationally?

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Where are the pro -life leaders? Where is the pro -life movement nationally? And so the cry that I would give is, hey, wherever you are in the country,

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Florida needs your support. Florida needs your help. The other side is pouring millions of dollars into the state.

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Where are we supporting the troops here on the ground? We need to back this up. And so that's why our organization, Operations of America, we're not based in Florida.

21:21

We got to get on the ground here. And this is my third time being in Florida just this summer and into the fall here.

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Yeah, man, we've been trying to sound this alarm and trying to get into each of these states and say, they need your help.

21:33

They need your support. We have to win one, two, or three at least of these states because we are at a dire crossroads, much like I referred to in the beginning at 1992, we're at that kind of a crossroads.

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We lost in 1992. Clinton won. That same year was the

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Casey decision. We had had 12 years of Republican justices. We thought Roe was going to be overturned.

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And instead the Casey decision in 1992, two justices that were Republican appointed flipped. And instead of overturning

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Roe, they expanded Roe in the Casey decision. And we had to live under another 30 years of not just Roe, but then

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Casey on top of that. So we're at that kind of a crossroads, I believe this year. We're at that kind of a crossroads.

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I mean, this election is crucial and as important as the Trump -Harris election is, which I think it is very important.

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And we could talk about all that. And there's a whole debate whether we should vote for Trump or not at this point. But really the direction that these state ballot amendments go,

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Florida, Missouri, Arizona, South Dakota, Montana, Nebraska, the direction that those states go is

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I believe going to determine the moral and spiritual trajectory of this nation for the next generation. That's how crucial

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I believe it is that we wake up the church and win at least one, two or three of those states.

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Because if we win, think of the reversal of trajectory. If we win a handful of these states, it'll be the first time we've won when abortion has been on the ballot.

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It'll shut the mouth of those who are saying, we can't win an abortion. It'll stop that narrative. It will show the

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Republican party that the church can mobilize and that people in this country do care about the killing of preborn children.

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And it'll give us a great momentum. So that's what's at stake here. There's no greater statement that we could make in response to the direction that Trump and others are moving on abortion than to win some of these state ballot fights.

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There's no greater statement that can be made to affirm what they're doing than that we lose these state fights.

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And really it's in the hands of the church we have to mobilize. So sorry, that was long -winded.

23:33

That's a big topic. No, it is a big topic. And what you just said was eye -opening for me when you compared it to the homosexual marriage issue and how that really isn't even discussed right now politically.

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And that's just been eight years ago. That kind of put a perspective that I hadn't thought about that if this is lost, if all of these states add these amendments to their constitution thereby enshrining abortion into their constitutions, that's going to establish a new precedent where it's no longer really going to be viable to argue against it because the states have it enshrined in their constitution.

24:16

Therefore, what candidate is going to go out and be against it? Because it's a lost cause. At least that's what

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I'm hearing. And that is heartbreaking because we shouldn't stand for truth because it's expedient.

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We shouldn't stand for truth because it's political. We should stand for truth because it's the truth and because life is worth saving.

24:34

And that's just heartbreaking to hear that. And I know what you've said is the truth.

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And man, it just breaks my heart. I pray, and I know that you do as well, that these amendments are struck down and that the

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Lord would show that this cannot continue.

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And if it does, it's just going to bring more destruction to our nation. So man, Jason, that was very helpful.

25:04

So I appreciate it very much. My pleasure. My pleasure. And I echo that prayer that there would be repentance of our people and we have to fall on our face before God.

25:13

It's a Nehemiah moment where the walls are torn down and just pray that the church rises up and every individual can do a lot.

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And that's been our message, just helping to equip and empower churches. Hey, we can give you resources.

25:27

We can give you some blueprints. We can give you some things to do right in your own community. And that's it. If we all just take responsibility over our own area, we can get a lot done and we can win.

25:35

I have just a couple of practical questions to ask you because you're a man who does the work.

25:40

You're out there at the abortion clinics. You're out there preaching and you actually had a conference this week. What are you guys doing this week?

25:47

Yeah. So this week, I just flew into Florida last night. So we have - Welcome to my home state.

25:54

Yeah. I love Florida. I mean, I think you've probably got the best governor in the country, but I love

25:59

DeSantis. I hope to see him this week, Lord willing, but we do an annual conference every year.

26:06

We bring hundreds of Christians together from around the worship and prayer with outreach on the streets.

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And so I'll say has done this for 30 years, has had conferences where it's hearing the word of God and it's going and putting into practice, being not hearers only, but doers of the word.

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And so we go to abortion clinics. We'll be at the local abortion clinics in Orlando every morning. We'll have three to 400

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Christians, Lord willing, in front of those clinics, praying, being a public witness and being a voice for the children.

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And then also splitting up and going out and we're going to be doing door knocking all week. So door knocking, literature distribution, sign displays, and just engaging citizens, engaging voters on the issue of amendment four.

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And we'll have hundreds of Christians going out and doing that. We have some literature we've printed up. This is our no on four piece.

26:58

And so we have some of those available. We're giving those out to churches.

27:04

We have church packets we've been distributing for months, getting it at the hands of church leaders and just trying to get the church to take ownership over their own neighborhoods, really just to faith.

27:14

If every church, every Bible believing pro -life church in the state of Florida just takes responsibility for their realm, their domain area of responsibility, we've moved the needle and we win.

27:25

And so our conference is going to be a time to really help mobilize the church in central Florida. Amen.

27:31

Do you happen to have that in a digital format that I could have? We do. It's our website, operationsofamerica .org,

27:38

operationsofamerica .org, do slash Florida, and that will take you to our

27:43

Florida page. And we have all the states that have these amendment fights. We have things that we've printed.

27:49

We haven't actually gotten into some of them. We just didn't have the bandwidth to get into every state as we wanted to, but it was really focusing on our

27:55

Florida and Missouri and to a lesser extent, Arizona. But those are the big states that we've been really trying to pour resources into.

28:03

And really Florida has been the tip of the spear for us. We've poured a lot of resources into Florida. So operationsofamerica .org

28:08

slash Florida, and I can send you that link and put that in the description and everything. But we also have a webpage, operationsofamerica .org

28:18

slash Orlando, and that's our event page to go and see the event. We have a lot of national pro -life speakers coming in to speak and working with a coalition of pro -life groups in this state and churches.

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And so that's exciting for us. Wonderful. Well, Lord willing, I'll have this out by either tonight or by early tomorrow.

28:38

So people will get to see it before the conference. So that's great. What days are the conference this week? We start

28:44

Tuesday. So there'll be people going on the streets tomorrow. Tomorrow night is activism training.

28:49

We're partnering with the White Rose Resistance, Seth Gruber and their ministry, the film, the 1916 project that just released, excellent film documentary on the history of the abortion industry and the eugenics movement.

29:00

A lot of those things are up to the present and the way that pharmaceutical industry and others profit off the selling of babies and profit off of abortion and the ways that it's used and really demonic, at the heart of it, of the demonic agenda.

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But 1916 project is excellent film, and we're going to be partnering with them tomorrow night on training and helping them launch a state chapter here in Florida.

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And then our conference will be Wednesday through Saturday, and we'll be on the streets each day and then having evening services.

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It's going to be Eastland Baptist Church in Orlando. Do you mind if I pick your brain a little bit on practical things?

29:44

I know you're offering training at the event, but just for my audience sake and even for my own sake, we all run into people who disagree, especially on this issue.

29:56

This is a divisive issue. Can I just say, hey, as a guy who's been there, who's been face to face with people, and this has been your ministry now for a long time, can

30:05

I just say, hey, here's a few objections that people throw out there and get your response as maybe a way people understand how they might be able to, when they're talking to people about this issue, be able to give a good response, a good answer.

30:20

Okay. Well, I appreciate you being willing. First thing I remember a few years ago, there was a group that had come to Jacksonville, and we had let them use our church for a place to spend the night.

30:36

It was like a pro -life group had come to speak on a campus. There's a couple of colleges here in Jacksonville, and they'd come to speak on a campus, and they had asked for a place to stay, and we'd let them stay at our church.

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We found out that one of the things they were teaching their people was, you don't want to use the Bible when you're talking about abortion.

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Yeah, I see your face, because that's exactly, we were upset when we found out that's what they were telling their people, because we were like, hey, we disagree wholeheartedly that you don't use the

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Bible. What do you say to someone who says, hey, when you're talking about pro -life, this is a political issue.

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It's not a biblical issue. You shouldn't use the Bible, because people don't believe the Bible. What would you say to that, Jason? Yeah, I think there's a both and answer to that question, right?

31:18

Because in one sense, all of life is spiritual. Everything we do is under the lordship of Christ.

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Jesus said, and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded, which

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Jesus' teachings is comprehensive, covering the full spectrum of human life, our business, our finances, our economics, our education.

31:40

There is no secular domain. Yet that doesn't mean that we force a truncated gospel message into every conversation, right?

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I run a construction business, and I don't always carry a

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Bible with me and come in there and try to force Jesus into the conversation when

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I'm doing a job estimate or something. But my light shines regardless as a Christian. So we cannot separate the gospel in one sense.

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We cannot separate our theology from our lifestyle or our activities. And so I understand the thinking that says we don't necessarily have to convert somebody to Christianity to change their mind about abortion and save a life.

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And certainly in the immediate context, I mean, if we're dry, but you and I are driving together and we see a car careening off of a cliff or something, we run out there to try to rescue the people.

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We're probably not going to stop and try to share the gospel with the person at that point, right? And if somebody else wants to come up and stop and they try to help us, we're probably not going to give them a theological litmus test.

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Well, are you a Muslim? Are you Mormon? Let me see your doctrinal statement before we work together to save this life.

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So there is a place for working together with people across broad lines, and there's a place to just meet the immediate need, which is to save that life.

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So there's a time where we don't necessarily interject the gospel, but to say that the gospel never comes into a broader apologetic conversation or does not ground us in the work that we're doing or I think is extremely erroneous.

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And it has led to what I would say the pro -life movement's utter failure for over 50 years. Prior to the

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Dobbs decision, there really was not a substantive pro -life policy victory in this country that you could appeal to.

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I mean, think about that, all the energy and money and votes and electoral victories of the pro -life movement and not one substantive policy decision in 50 years.

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The best things we could appeal to that we passed were things like you have to wait 24 hours before you can kill your baby, or we've got to make sure that parents consent to killing the baby, or we've got to make sure that there's proper sanitation in the abortion clinic before you kill the baby.

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Certainly not pro -life laws. Those are laws that further sanction and really sanitize abortion in the culture.

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And so what we have said is that we need to be clear in stating what abortion is. It is the killing of an innocent human being made in the image of God.

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And human life has value precisely because there is a God. And if we abandon our biblical foundation and worldview, then what basis do we have to even affirm the

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Constitution and the Declaration of Independence? Those documents were grounded in the historic Christian faith and Christian theology, right?

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All 13 states originally, they're going to preamble to every state constitution in this country recognizes

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Almighty God. They all appeal to Almighty God as the basis of our laws and civil government.

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And so the declaration asserts and affirms, which sort of lays the theological and philosophical foundation for our constitution.

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We hold these truths to be self -evident. All men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.

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This is fundamentally theological. And so if we just try to find some sort of pragmatic common ground in discussing this issue with people,

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I mean, we may be able to convince them that abortion is wrong because they already have a presupposition in place that murdering human beings is wrong and that human beings have value, but they are borrowing from the

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Christian worldview to make those assertions, right? And so to me, every conversation we have had on abortion, which goes back almost 30 years now,

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I've debated abortion on hundreds of college campuses, large crowds of students, and I've probably changed thousands of people's minds on this issue by God's grace.

35:44

And always the conversation goes back to the theological questions.

35:51

All these conversations, any moral issue that you really want to speak of, whether you're talking about taxation as theft or whether you're talking about, you name it, the

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LGBT movement, all these things ultimately are going to go back to what is our moral authority and where do we get values from?

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Because all moral judgments presuppose human value.

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They presuppose that we are valuable beings, that there is such a thing as moral value. You don't get moral judgment and moral obligation where you do not have moral value.

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And how does a world of random chaos and transmutation, how does that produce individuals with value?

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It certainly doesn't. And so one has to ground such assertions in a rational worldview.

36:37

And of course, in Western civilization, that has been Christianity. Amen. Amen. Jason, I want to ask you now a biblical question because this is one, and I know how

36:51

I would answer this, but I'm always curious when I have somebody who is an expert in an area to ask them how they would answer a specific question.

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Because a question that I see coming up more and more now is there are those who will say, you shouldn't use the

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Bible. We just talked about that. And there are other people who would say, well, the Bible doesn't actually condemn abortion.

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In fact, there are those who would go back to a few obscure passages in the Old Testament and say, well, see here, the Bible endorses abortion.

37:23

I don't believe that. I know you don't believe that, but I know you've heard it. If you've been in as many debates as you have, you had to have heard people say, well, the

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Bible says this or the Bible says that. Life doesn't begin until they take their first breath or something like that.

37:38

That's one of the things that I've heard people argue. Of course, I disagree, but I want to hear, do you follow that argument?

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Do you try to overcome it and say, this is what the Bible actually says, or do you disregard it?

37:53

How do you respond? What I would say is I would say, let's look at every passage where a preborn child, or to use their euphemistic terms, a product of conception.

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Let's look at everywhere where a product of conception is discussed in the Bible. In every single place, the

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Bible unanimously affirms the humanity of the child in the womb.

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It always uses language that speaks of a human being, of a human person, that Mary was with child.

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Psalm 139, I'm fearfully and wonderfully made in my inward parts, you have woven me together.

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You see this in Luke 1, where Elizabeth and Mary, they greet each other and they're both pregnant.

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It says, the babe leaped for joy in the womb. Everywhere the

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Bible speaks of a preborn child, the Bible affirms the humanity of that child. There's nowhere that anybody could possibly conceive that scripture affirms the killing of that little precious life.

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There's the only verse is Exodus, in Exodus 22, where you have this two men fighting and a pregnant woman intervenes to try to break it up and she's hit and harmed.

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Then it says, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but if there's no harm, but basically she's a miscarriage happens, the baby comes out.

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It triggers a miscarriage and it says, if there's no harm, then there's no penalty. And so, people would interpret that to mean, if the only harm was that she miscarried and lost the baby, then the man's not punished because the baby doesn't have any value.

39:37

That's not what the text says. It says, if there's no fault, but if there is, then it's eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life.

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And so, that's the clear passage. Now, of course, in that situation, people say, well, it doesn't treat it as murder necessarily.

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Well, because it was not intentional premeditated homicide. Scripture, there's other passages in the law of God that speak to premeditated homicide.

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The Bible is not as shallow as some would make it out to be today. But the Bible does speak in different categories and penalties and punishments and distinguishes between killing someone in self -defense, killing somebody in premeditation, killing somebody in the heat of the moment, et cetera.

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The same kinds of things we have with different degrees of homicide, manslaughter, et cetera. So, that's really all you have there.

40:28

There's another obscure passage that people point to. I say obscure in that it's not frequently referenced and we don't know a lot of what's going on there, but where the priest sort of, to determine if an adulterous woman was impregnated, right?

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And he does this sort of concoction and then there's something expels from the woman.

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And some would say that, certainly be easy to read as him conducting some sort of witchcraft potion to abort, some sort of abortifacient, but that's will be completely imposed on the text, right?

41:01

There's nothing in the text that would imply that. It's an interesting passage, that's for sure. I don't know that many pastors today are employing that technique today, but certainly nothing in there that would imply that abortion is legitimized or that that's the priest sanctioning some sort of abortifacient.

41:20

The earliest recording we have that explicitly speaks to the practice of abortion is the Didache, right?

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Which is probably 90 AD, maybe as late as 100 and 510 AD, and it's explicitly prohibits abortion and explicitly.

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And so, the church has always opposed abortion anywhere and everywhere that Christianity has reigned in the government in some form or another.

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Abortion has been criminal right up until, of course, America, through America's history, abortion was criminal.

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Anyone involved in it was held criminally liable up until the Roe versus Wade decision, and really just a few years before that, a handful of states legalized it in a few instances.

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But, you know, to say, well, Jesus never explicitly talked about abortion, you know, homosexuals use the same argument in saying

42:03

Jesus never explicitly talked about homosexuality, right? Where does he address it? Well, it's, you know, big reason we'd say is, well, contextually, there wasn't rampant homosexuality, neither was there rampant abortion taking place in Israel.

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Jesus addressed the sins and the issues of the day. Paul, when we get to the New Testament, I mean, the epistles, he deals with homosexuality, right?

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1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1, 1 Timothy, he addresses it clearly head on without ambiguity that it's sinful, lawless behavior.

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And so, you know, that's because, of course, he's going out into the Greco -Roman world where homosexuality was in your face and prevalent, right?

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In some circles, in some quarters. And so, you know, so, you know, it's a sort of matter of dealing with this cultural sins you're dealing with.

42:49

Jesus didn't address it, but he did address, he didn't address it directly, but he certainly did address it when he says things like, let the little children come unto me, you know, what you did to the least of these, you know, you see this overwhelming theme in Jesus's teaching that we, as those who are strong, particularly us as men, we have a protective duty and responsibility to those that are weak.

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And this is the overarching, one of the overarching narratives of Christ's ethical system that he is imposing on the world and flipping the world upside down.

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No, don't lord your authority as the Gentiles do over others, but he comes and washes his disciples' feet. Though he is

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God in the flesh, though he would be the strongest man to walk into any room, could flip the tables and drive these guys out of the temple, yet he had tremendous compassion, would heal the sick, went to the lepers, the off -scouring and healed them and showed great compassion.

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You know, when he sees a blind man pleading on the side of the road for sight, you know, he stops everything he's doing to minister to a lowly, you know, somebody, you know, a homeless, you know, like a homeless drug addict, right?

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He just stops everything he's doing to minister to this guy because he sees the faith that this man had. So, you know, so Jesus shows us overwhelmingly that, you know, if you're going to be my disciple, deny yourself, take up your cross, follow me.

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It's a life of self -denial. And so as a father, as a husband, as a man who's seeking to guide my life morally, right?

44:09

My duty is to sacrifice for women and children, to marry a woman, to not exploit her body, to not try to get all the pleasures without any of the responsibilities.

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You talk about as antithetical to Christianity and to Christ's teaching as you possibly could get, right? My job is to care for that woman's heart, to love, honor and cherish her, to commit to her and to marry her.

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And then when we have children to sacrifice for those children, not to sacrifice my children. Well, I don't have enough money to take care of them or I'm too busy or I'm too pursuing my career and what

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I want to do. So I'm going to kill my child. Really? And you're going to say that Jesus would sanction that, you know, so that the liberal pastor, the liberal

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Christian, the Harris voting, you know, so -called evangelical, absolutely not heinous.

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You could not be more antithetical to the teaching heart and spirit of Christ than to think that God would allow a man to take his child down to an abortion clinic and have that little body torn out of that mother's womb, that which

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God created to be the safe haven, you know, the my body, my choice, you know, it's my body. Well, ma 'am, mother, your body right now, if you're pregnant, is working overtime to protect that little life.

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Every cell in your body is working to nourish, protect and grow that little precious life inside of you.

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So if you want to talk about your body, your body is working overtime to protect that little life because your body recognizes you have another little human being growing inside of you that's precious and should be loved and protected.

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So that's the heart of Christianity. We have to protect these babies. It's our moral duty. Amen. And I just want you to know,

45:45

I love the Didache, have used it in teaching a lot. And so anybody who mentions the Didache is automatically gets a gold star in my book.

45:53

So that's cool that you mentioned that. Um, in regard to some of the methods that I've heard for discussing the subject of abortion with people, uh, one of the, one of the common methods that I've heard taught that is, is called sled.

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I'm sure you're familiar with sled. Yep. Which, uh, I want to see does a good job with it.

46:21

Who's that? Sorry. Scott Klugendorf is kind of a, the guy that life training Institute.

46:27

Oh, okay. Okay. And it's size, a level of development. Um, I'm saying, let's see if I remember environment degree of dependency.

46:36

Is that the, is that the four? Am I getting it? Actually, I actually don't remember exactly. I don't typically use that acronym, but it's good.

46:42

I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the reason why I was, I was bringing it up is, is when you, when you're, when you're engaging on college campuses, when you're engaging with students or whomever you, you know, and the reason why

46:54

I'm asking this question is I'm thinking about people like my mom or my dad who might be in a conversation with their friends or might be in a conversation with someone, you know, that they meet at the gym or something.

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And, and this conversation comes up and, and, and, and they, they may not have the, the, they may, they may not be able to, to get a lot out, but, but what, what's the best way you think that someone can clearly articulate their point?

47:24

I think sleds useful, but this is why I'm asking you, do you have a, you have a better way or something that to articulate the, the, the, this, this truth that, that, that the babies are alive, they're alive from conception, they deserve our protection.

47:38

And they, they're, how do you say it in a succinct way? I guess that's my question.

47:44

Well, that's good. Yeah. No sled is excellent. I mean, I would encourage people, you know, Scott clues dwarf is a friend of mine and, and he's a phenomenal pro -life apologist, perhaps the best of our, of the, of the last several decades.

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And I don't typically use the argument in the way that he does it. It's, it's formulaic and it's good.

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And I mean, he's very good at doing that. He had a great book called the case for life that just came out and a great read, you know, and, and so, you know, that's, that's, you know, and thankfully he's come, he's come over to where he has become a much more explicitly

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Christian. I think, you know, maybe 15, 20 years ago, he would have been more of the, don't mix the religion, don't mix religion into it.

48:23

It's going to confuse the argument. Let's just change people's minds and abortion. And now he's, he's, he's certainly from what

48:28

I can see now is much more explicitly Christian and theological in, in his articulation of the pro -life position and apology is apologetic methodology associated with it.

48:39

And, and also in even, even things like legislative strategy, you know, I think seeing some of the failures of pro -life movement, but you know, what

48:47

I try to do, it's kind of like, you know, with counterfeiting, right? It's like, you know, there's a thousand different ways to counterfeit a dollar bill, right? So there's a thousand different arguments out there that, you know, the best way, right.

48:55

They teach people to spot counterfeit bills as they study the actual dollar. And the more that you just precisely know and understand, how do

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I see it, the actual dollar, you can spot any, any defect from it. And so I think being, you know, what we teach is just to get grounded in, in the solid case for the humanity and value of a preborn child from the moment of conception.

49:15

And, you know, I think that starts, of course, with robust theological understanding, developing a good biblical worldview, good, good, you know, having good apologetics, you know, how do we defend the

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Christian worldview? How do we defend the canon of scripture? You know, there's a lot to all of that, of course, but I think this is a part of basic discipleship.

49:31

The church should be teaching these things and in grounding, in particular, our young people in a good understanding of the historic

49:38

Orthodox positions on these things and giving a rational defense for the core teaching, the corpus of the church that has carried for 2000 years.

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And of course, not getting off into all of our denominational distinctions and secondary tertiary doctrines, which we could talk, you know, all sorts of things about, but, you know, really the core of the

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Christian message that there is a God who reigns and, and how do we know that that God exists? And how do we know that he has revealed himself through the person of Jesus Christ and through the scriptures and, and then defend that, that general worldview.

50:10

And so then what emanates out of that is the question of when does human life begin? Right. And that's the million dollar question.

50:17

I wish Trump would have asked Harris, that Vance would have asked Waltz, you know, you've had these debates on the national stage about abortion, and it's sad to see the

50:23

Republicans just wilt on that issue. But, you know, the million dollar question to put the Democrats and the

50:29

Republicans, I guess, really now at this point on the defensive and say, well, you tell me when human life begins. So what we do is we assert, you know, we give a robust defense of the biblical worldview.

50:40

And I think that, and I think the way you bring that home speaking practically is not to get into argumentative or debate mode, but it's, it's, it's to start at the place

50:48

I think where Jesus would start is to start with loving people. So if a woman comes to me and says, you know, how can, how can you impose, you know, your morality on others?

50:58

And how can you take my rights away as a woman? My immediate response is not to jump into debate and apologetic mode, right?

51:08

If I'm going to be consistent as a Christian, right, I must start at the place where we recognize not just the humanity and the value of the preborn child, but of the woman that I'm speaking to.

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I'm called to love my neighbor as myself. And so I have to affirm her humanity. She's made in God's image.

51:23

And I have to love her as myself, which a part of that entails, you know, intellectual honesty, that if I want her to listen to me, and if I want her to take the things that I'm saying seriously, even if they initially sound crazy to her, you know,

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I want her to listen to me and consider what I'm saying. Well, then I'm obligated to do the same. I'm obligated to listen to her and to affirm her humanity, even if I think what she's saying is crazy.

51:45

And I've heard it a thousand times, you know, so, so, you know, when I'm in a conversation like that, you know, if I, if I, and of course we get that question a thousand and one times, right?

51:53

And so the first thing I say is, ma 'am, look, you know, as a Christian, the last thing that I want to do is take your rights away.

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In fact, I stand and will die on principle that you are made in God's image, that you are precious and have great value.

52:06

And I will, I want to defend and protect your rights and defend and protect your values. So let's be very clear, the

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Christian church and me as a Christian man and the pro -life movement broadly, we absolutely believe in the rights of women and want to protect and defend those rights.

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And in fact, it is the Christian worldview that has birthed that in the world. Jesus protected and defended women in a time and in a place when they didn't have a lot of rights.

52:30

And as Christianity has grown in influence in the world, so have women's rights and children's rights.

52:36

And there's recognition of the universal value of all human beings, regardless of their class and their skin color and, and, and their, their tribal distinctions and so forth.

52:46

And so as Christians, we affirm this fundamental principle that we all made in God's image.

52:52

And so I think that can be, that, that, that there is a little bit disarming. And then we moved to the question of, you know, and ma 'am, in addition to that, we affirm

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God's good creation. Male and female are beautiful in the ways that God has made them femininity and masculinity, you know, come together in virtue and commitment and sacrifice to produce children.

53:11

Sexual reproduction, sex is fundamentally a reproductive act. It's how we all got here.

53:16

Make no mistake about it. There is no such thing as casual sex, right? And so, you know, we disconnect human reproduction from the sexual act.

53:25

We get sexual chaos, anarchy, confusion, the broken hearts, the broken families, the unwanted, aborted, abandoned, and abused children crisis that we have in our culture today, where we have the highest rates of suicide, drug addiction, disease, anxiety, you know, we've ever seen because we have a broken generation.

53:42

Family is breaking down, commitment, love, and self -sacrifice are all being thrown to the wind as people put things and possessions and pleasure ahead of sacrifice and love and commitment.

53:54

And so, we're in a place of moral chaos, where abuse against women and children are at all -time highs.

54:00

So, we're not solving the problems. We're not making women's lives better. The fact is we're making women's lives worse.

54:07

Women have more anxiety today. More women are medicated and have, you know, mental issues, quote -unquote, or are in therapy than ever in our nation's history.

54:16

More women are abused than ever in our nation's history. More children are in foster care and unwanted and neglected. So, you know, 50 -plus years of legalized abortion has not solved the problem of unwanted children.

54:27

It certainly hasn't made women's lives better. It's a lie, and that lie needs to be exposed.

54:34

And so, you know, as we walk back to the beauty of family and marriage, as God has instituted, and in that context, motherhood, right?

54:43

How beautiful is motherhood, a thing to be celebrated, not trampled upon. And so, you know, so that's sort of the approach we take and how we walk people to this question that starts to slowly get down into, you know, then when you get pregnant, what does that mean?

55:00

What does it mean when you find yourself pregnant? That means you have a precious human life growing inside of you, and as difficult as your circumstances may be, which nobody's been born into perfect circumstance.

55:10

You know, we have 11 children, and it's never perfect circumstances in any of those children, although we wanted them. But, you know, my brother and I were born to my mom and dad as teenagers.

55:19

They were teenagers, had my brother and I, and my mom was pressured to abort. They were divorced, married and divorced within a year.

55:26

You know, we were far from ideal. We grew up, my brother and I, single -parent household.

55:32

My mom was on welfare, very difficult circumstances, but we got through it, you know? And so, you know,

55:38

I think there is no easy pregnancy in a sense, right?

55:43

It's difficult to have children, but all good things, you know, are difficult.

55:49

And, you know, that's the measure of our morality is that we do the right thing despite the difficulties, despite the hardships, despite the temptations to shirk those responsibilities.

55:59

So, you know, so I think, you know, all that ties into this question of what does it mean to be pregnant, and then what are my moral responsibilities when

56:07

I find out that I am pregnant, both for the mother and for the father? I want to get to the amendments, but I have one more very quick question, and this is one that I see the

56:20

Republicans often acquiescing on because it is a difficult question, and that is the question of exceptions.

56:33

I know as an abolitionist, as a person who I believe that all abortions should be abolished, that's me,

56:40

I'm saying that, when someone says, yeah, but what about, and they will always bring up the most extreme of cases, you know, the 12 -year -old girl who's raped who's now pregnant, shouldn't she be allowed to escape that pregnancy because it's simply a violation of her body?

56:58

And these are, it's almost always the most difficult questions, and I remember, I don't remember who said it, but it was in a

57:05

Senate meeting where one of the the lady who was asked that, she said, well, if we were willing to make that exception, would you make all other abortion illegal?

57:13

And they were like, well, no. And they said, well, then the exception doesn't matter. You're just throwing out a red herring. That's a canard, right? That's not the real issue.

57:20

But how do you respond when people say, well, Jason, there must be some exception.

57:27

I'm not making this argument. I'm trying. Sure, yeah. No, it's good. That is the biggest one we hear is that, of course, rape is the biggest exception we hear.

57:37

And almost invariably, that'll be the first one that they throw at us. Yeah. And I get it.

57:43

And like I said, this is where I say, I hear Trump say there has to be exceptions. I hear Vance say there has to be exceptions.

57:50

And these are guys that in general, I would say, I don't want to say on my side, but I'm conservative.

57:58

Obviously, I tend to vote Republican. I don't think anybody would be surprised to hear me say that. So when

58:03

I hear guys on my side saying that, I'm like, but, you know, and what's the answer?

58:09

What's your response to that? Yeah, and that is a tough one. I think what separates rape, and it's why people lean into it, pro -abortion side, they lean into it.

58:19

Even those who are for abortion all the way up to nine months without exception for any reason, they'll always lead with the rape issue, right?

58:26

And so the first thing I do, like I said, is I affirm that person and their question, right? So I try to take that seriously, affirm them, say, this is a good question.

58:33

Let's talk about this. And so the rape question is difficult.

58:39

What distinguishes that from other things is that's a situation where the woman did not engage in consensual sex, right?

58:46

And so it's easy to say in other situations, take responsibility for your actions, right?

58:51

You chose to get in bed. I think most people kind of understand that. The rape exception is how people have gotten their foot in the door.

59:00

It's how abortion got its foot in the door. And so, of course, we know that. And so first thing

59:05

I do is I deal with that rape question head on. Then I ask some disarming questions that usually exposes that the person doesn't just really care about rape.

59:14

What they really care about and why they're asking the questions is because they want abortion on demand. So one simple way to do that is just to ask the question something like, okay, if I grant you that exception, for sake of argument,

59:25

I grant you that exception. And we say, okay, we're going to criminalize all abortion except for rape.

59:30

And rape, you can get an abortion. Would you support that? And invariably they say, well, no, because I think, oh, okay.

59:37

So rape is not your real issue there. That's something you're looking for justification for why you want to be able to get an abortion for any other reason, right?

59:45

And so that's not being honest and that's not right. But then to address the rape question head on,

59:50

I think the simple answer is to say, well, the baby is innocent. You know, when we're talking about, you know, it's two wrongs don't make a right.

59:59

Killing the baby does not eliminate the rape. It does not eliminate the pain and the trauma of the rape.

01:00:05

You know, the rapist needs to be punished severely in God's law and biblically the rapist would be executed.

01:00:13

And I support that. And if somebody raped my daughter, you know, that would absolutely be my response.

01:00:20

I would be be in Jesus name, you know, executing justice.

01:00:29

Absolutely. And I want to affirm what you just said. Yeah. No doubt. Amen. And then we, that mother, that woman needs support and love and she doesn't need to be shamed.

01:00:42

She doesn't need to be, you know, you know, we need to come, we need to have a society generally in a place, and this is what the church

01:00:50

I think is and has been, right, is a support system for hurting and broken people. And so the woman needs to have love and support and the rapist needs to be punished severely.

01:01:01

But if a child is created in that process, right, then that is a unique baby. That baby should not be punished for the sins of the father.

01:01:10

Aborting the baby is to just commit another act of a violence and aggression against a weaker, smaller person, right?

01:01:17

It's very little different from the rape, a bigger, stronger person hurting a weaker person because they can take advantage of them.

01:01:25

Well, that's exactly what an abortion doctor would do to tear that little life out of that mother's womb. So, you know, and then the last thing

01:01:31

I'd say to put the emphasis on it is, hey, how many people do we know that may be the product of rape? I mean,

01:01:37

I have seven friends who are the product of rape. And so sometimes I'll get this question and it'll be a crowd of college students.

01:01:43

And I'll say, how do you know that there aren't people here or people that you sit next to in class that are the product of rape?

01:01:48

And look at how you're talking about them because usually they'll say something like, what about a blankety -blanking rape baby? You know, you think they should have that baby?

01:01:56

And I'd say, well, do you realize how disgusting, first of all, that sounds to refer to them as a blanking -blanking rape baby.

01:02:04

Some of your friends or classmates or people here may actually be the product of rape and they may be fantastic human beings that that's pretty ugly that you'd speak of them that way.

01:02:13

The fact is that, I'll usually use their rhetoric and I'll say, you just refer to them as a rape baby.

01:02:18

Well, you use the term baby and that's what's key here. You call them a baby.

01:02:24

So what you're really saying is you think it's okay to kill an innocent baby. My question to you would be, you tell me when it's okay to kill an innocent baby.

01:02:35

And my answer to that question is never. There's never an acceptable time to intentionally kill an innocent baby.

01:02:43

There's never a time to intentionally kill an innocent human being, period. That's a, could be a fundamental core principle.

01:02:50

So what they have to do is they have to equivocate and they have to blur the lines, muddy the waters, and they have to try to then pretend that it's not a human being.

01:03:00

Well, it's just a parasite. It's just a blob of tissues. It's just a fetus. It's like, well, you're just throwing euphemisms at what you've already said is a baby.

01:03:11

What any mother knows is a baby and what any OBGYN, a pregnant mom walks into a clinic and she wants the baby.

01:03:18

Doesn't matter how far along she is. She's going to call it a baby. The OBGYN will call it a baby. The nurses will call it a baby.

01:03:23

All her friends and family members will ask her, how's that baby? Did you get to see the baby? Did they bring up the ultrasound? So when abortion is not on the context, everybody's across societal lines recognizes and affirms that it's a baby.

01:03:37

And so when abortion and something comes into the picture, you want to shift and pretend it's not. And so that's dishonest.

01:03:42

And we have to simply expose that. Amen. Amen. Well, I want to thank you, one, for the ministry that you're doing, two, for taking the time away to come and be with us for this hour and explaining to us, and again, enlightening me on some things

01:04:00

I hadn't even thought of that was very useful for me. I know it's going to be useful for my audience. Thank you for having the boots on the ground and continuing to fight this fight for life.

01:04:09

And just thank you for being my new friend. And I look forward to hopefully having you on the show again at some point, hopefully to celebrate the striking down of this amendment.

01:04:20

Maybe one day we'll have you back and we can talk about that. Yeah, that's the key. Thank you. And thank you for the work you're doing.

01:04:25

Keep up the good work, brother, and God bless your faithfulness. Well, God bless you, brother. And we'll be praying for you.

01:04:31

Thank you. All right, guys. Again, I want to thank you for being a part of your Calvinist podcast today.

01:04:38

And again, all of the information about Jason's ministry is going to be in the description below. So if you'd like to go and support them or learn more about them, you can do that by going and following those links.

01:04:49

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01:05:02

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01:05:08

So thank you for listening to your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.