Movie Reviews, Kentucky Baptists, SQUIRREL!, Oh, Uh, and Ehrman

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

And greetings welcome to the dividing line it is a Monday an unusual day for the dividing line the plan is

00:41

To go fairly long today got a lot to talk about however. I'm just letting you know right now

00:48

This is my phone Yes, it is a nice phone. I yes, I gave in after years years of Being a droid guy.

00:58

I have an iPhone 6s It's it's it's quite a piece of equipment. Love it.

01:03

It is on and The ringer is on and it's gonna stay on because in Fact you'll probably hear it making little noises

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During the course the program today because that's what it does very frequently And I will look at it, and I normally don't do that during the program but the reality is that my daughter is

01:28

Is pregnant and is due on Thursday and as you may know

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When you're that close of three days I could get a phone call and if I get a phone call instead of being a

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Jumbo or a mega dividing line this could be a mini dividing line

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So I'm just letting you know Right up doesn't matter what we're talking about we could be right in the middle of the most interesting video on the planet

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Unless rich wants to take over and Review Bart Ehrman or whatever

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Then it's just the way it is So just to say, you know, you will be hearing little noises.

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I haven't forgotten it It's purposeful, but that's just the way that it is. So letting you know right up front

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But don't text message doc not summer that I don't understand that but Anyway, so there you go.

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All right Got a lot to get to today. See see there was a there was there was a ding right there and That of course was red and channel

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Who just wants you know, that's his way of turning lights off or you know doing whatever else

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You know people like him do Anything to interrupt what is important that's going on is what is what

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Alan that's his real name You know that guy calls from Georgia. Yeah, that's same guy It's just one of those

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You know people that you know during this this life in this world We we just have to put up with them because sanctification is not complete in this life and someday someday.

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So Here it's here it starts there.

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Yeah, I should have shouldn't let that go. All right. Anyway, um Let's start by offending lots of folks

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Why not I have a feeling we're gonna be doing that a lot anyways Saw a movie last week.

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I've been asked what I thought about it and And I'm gonna play a portion of the trailer for the movie and then

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I'll give you my very honest thoughts on the film and Some of you will like that and some of you will not and That's just the way that goes.

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So you ready in there with the super duper Thingy here.

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Let's let's see how it see how it works. Well, Doug's got to be brave to go into that kind of thing

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Just so you know, there's nothing wrong with your screen it's just The the methodology of this particular film and others like it is sort of like Lens flares in Star Trek.

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Okay It's all jumpy jumpy cut Everywhere type, you know black and white this really artsy

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Really artsy. Okay for people my age Not the best but just so you know

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You don't have to jump up and adjust your rabbit ears. Of course, you don't know what rabbit ears anyways

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As a gay instructor as an atheist, I mean, I don't think we ever had a security plan a security plan for Doug before It's an assertion by raw power by claiming victim

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The charge is you're a racist

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You're a sexist And you're anti -gay

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Racist sexist anti -gay Douglas Wilson go away, right and it's stated in such a way as to rhyme

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Okay, I was gonna stop before then sorry about that, uh, I didn't realize it had been going that long

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There was a fair amount of profanity in the film And I'll be perfectly honest with you as Long as it was the protesters doing their thing and I didn't have a problem with it

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There was a point however where I think that it was a rap song I generally can't understand what's being said in most rap songs, honestly

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But it seemed to me that there was one time where it was just Doug Wilson's face With a rap song in the background that was dropping a lot of profanity.

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I could be wrong because Sometimes I can't understand what's being said.

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But anyway the free speech apocalypse. I saw it Thursday night and Appreciate the invitation to go do that and thought with some some cool folks

07:43

Let's start off with With the positives and then go to the negatives

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Some of you will remember that when Douglas Wilson went and Did that presentation

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We played a bunch of this stuff remember the young girl her dad stand there and the 13 year old girl and the exchange that he had with her and we played that and went through it and provide you know further response to it and You know and They went through a lot.

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They played a lot of that material in the beginning of the film the first I don't know 35 40 percent of the film was pretty much about that particular

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Encounter how it came about There was some footage I had not seen

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About what's going on outside? One of the things that was fascinating was that many of these people showed up with makeup on To make them look like they had been abused and beaten

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One thing that certainly Was made very very clear to me. Is these people know how to Project the image of victim hood when they're not the victims they they use it as a means of power and To silence others.

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No question about it. That was That was definitely something to be reminded of Is their constant drumbeat of victim hood victim hood victim hood you see it all the time you know and it's gotten so bad that If if anything doesn't go the way of the homosexual cabal

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The first thing you hear is you will have blood on your hands Because of the young people who will commit suicide as a result

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Never even thinking that that might say something about homosexuality Not about me, but about homosexuality that might mean there's something

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Fundamentally wrong with the concept of homosexuality and the practice homosexuality. I mean, you know doesn't suggest itself because we are the victims and you

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You will celebrate us and and our sexuality so that was that was very good and I Said back when this took place, what was it 2013 ish somewhere around there one that long ago

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But it's about about 2013. I think you know, I said at the time said man, you know Hats off to Doug Wilson for going in there for keeping us cool.

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Keep them keeping calm You know, they're not too many people that can do that I've been in similar situations not quite that nasty in that sense, but You know, it's

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I understand the pressures that were there and and he did a good job Certainly there was a lot of There's there's every reason to be talking about the fact that the

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Homosexual totalitarians are in control a couple days ago Adam 4d the

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Christian comic writer does a great job Had a comic pulled from Facebook where he gave three examples of real bigoted biased anti -homosexual attitudes and then the fourth part of his panel

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He had the Christians saying I believe this is against God's law and that it's sinful behavior and it was called not

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Homophobia they pulled it It was it was clearly making the distinction pulled it.

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You can't The the totalitarians Don't care about fairness truth

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Accuracy honesty integrity. These are words that have no meaning in the totalitarian universe

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In their universe if it does not lead to the celebration the the universal celebration of Homosexuality then it's bad even if it even if it's just Tolerance tolerance is not good enough

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Tolerance, that's old. That's that's that's passe. Tolerance isn't good enough. It must be celebration. You must say this is good

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This is right. This is great. This is wonderful I celebrate you you you you you because that's what it's all about is you you you you you and so there's much to be said about The fact that our

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University campuses are no longer places of free speech. It's thought the thought police have taken over every university campus in America With the small exception of a few little places and have we thought through what that means as far as education is concerned

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And we thought we thought through what it means that that these Young people who cannot think critically have never been taught to think have been taught that thinking critically is a bad thing

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Have been taught that their brainwashed way of thinking is actually thinking critically that's that the self -deception.

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It's amazing that these people will be in charge in a matter of years and hence when we see the government doing

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Insane things and we go. Well, it can't keep going because that's insane. No, it can't keep going because insanity requires some kind of standard by which you can recognize that it's insanity and That standard is disappearing

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So there's there's much to be said about the subject of free speech Unfortunately only about 40 % of the film was on that subject

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Then it just spun off Into a bunch of other stuff that's interesting.

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I mean there is a there is a big long discussion about Lincoln Slavery An appropriate discussion of how the

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What's called the Civil War the war between the states? Direct line direct historical line from that to the overarching

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Federal power of the government today. No question about that's where states rights disappeared

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That's where any of the controls that were originally intended to be a part of the constitutional system on it on a abusive overarching federal bureaucracy

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That's where that all fell apart. There's no question about that. It really wasn't a good connection made

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To help you understand why all of a sudden we're talking about this but and at that point it just it just started trying to talk about everything under the

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Sun and And Well, let's just listen negatives artsy artsy artsy way too artsy

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I don't like artsy, okay Way too much

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Doug Wilson time, I'm sorry Doug Wilson says many great things But I think if the producer could have done it he would have stuck a camera up his nose

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To get that angle. You've got angles from up above you got angles from down below You've got all this artsy artsy artsy stuff that just I'm just like really seriously.

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I mean after a while it's You know what? It is it it's like back when I discovered all the cool stuff you could do with PowerPoint You know

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I mean you can make your text bounce in from over here and then it can bounce it from over there and it can spin And I had all these presentations for a while or just you know, almost give you vertigo because of all the stuff you can do and Then we got past that and realized yeah, you know, you don't want to do a whole lot of that, you know once once in a while if you want to emphasize something maybe you know, but yeah, so Artsy artsy artsy way way way way way too artsy too much

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Doug Way too much close -ups of Doug. I mean seriously, there's a big screen, you know,

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I was just You know, you know this type of that's why I say, you know You could have would have

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The film was Minimally half an hour too long Maybe 45 minutes too long just too long the first part moved along fairly well and then it just Started And Part of that was because it turned into a new st.

16:54

Andrews puff piece Let's promote new st. Andrews. And so everybody who's on staff at new st

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I don't remember if the janitor got interviewed, but it might have been it would have fit. I Mean, there's this one.

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This is one lady. She's staying in her garden watering your lawn talking to you about feminism

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And I'm just like you could have lost all of that and missed none of the point of the film at all

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Or it could have all been done Much easier than that so So, you know the one guy they showed there had some interesting comments about how easy it is to get into universities things like that Some chuckles on that one one of the guys on staff, but most of the stuff was just Completely Unnecessary didn't need to be that could have been a lot a lot faster than it was

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Like I said The profanity that was used by the protesters in Bloomington I Get it.

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You want to show them for what they really are? I Got I mean it was I don't know how in the world they got footage these people

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Putting makeup on themselves to make them look like they had been beaten up But that was I was like, wow, that's that's amazing

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I I I get that part, but if I'm right and if During that one scene where it's just Doug Wilson and there's this this hip -hop rap thing in the background and If I'm right and that whoever it was was dropping profanity in that why?

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Why that that wasn't protesters that? Didn't get that Anyway So all in all

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You know, I I felt it was very poorly put together Tried to cover way way way way way way way too much crap and I don't

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I don't care there was there was a nice Long presentation on post -millennialism at the end and stuff. I'm not criticizing that I mean we could debate that we could argue that I've got my problems with some of the

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Interpretation, but that didn't bother me. That's that's where they're coming from fine, whatever Just simply looking at it and going

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You know, what's this supposed to accomplish and what could it have accomplished? I'd give it a

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C - C - I'm not sure if that's a rotten tomato or how many stars or any rest of the rest that kind of stuff, but I teach classes and so And I know that these days

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And no matter where I teach you give somebody a C anything and they're ready to have you lynched

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Vast majority of students today expect walking through the door to leave that class with an

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A and Once you get to an A - or a B+. Now, you're you're the terrible horrible mean nasty, dude.

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So It's interesting So C -

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C - for free speech apocalypse And it had nothing to do with the fact that While my car was parked in the parking lot during the film some bozo pulling couldn't

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Lack the skills to pull out of the parking place next to me and about took my rear bumper off.

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So had nothing to do with I Had I I did not know that that had happened until after I Reviewed the the film in my mind

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So so it didn't have anything to do with that Even though if you are the one that did that I just want you to know that someday

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God will get you for that All right

20:59

Let's go to an audio thing now and I saw a note on Facebook about an upcoming election in the

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Southern Baptist Convention the Kentucky State Convention specifically and the two primary people one is a preaching professor from Southern and One is not and the fellow who is not is named

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Jerry Tooley and Evidently Brother Tooley's primary

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Qualification for being president of the Kentucky State Baptist Is that he doesn't think that?

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Everything should be coming out of Louisville Southern seminarians specifically and all this newfangled

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Calvinism Newfangled Calvin that's that's his terminology newfangled So he knows about the oldfangled stuff.

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No, I don't do I don't get the feeling brother Tooley is is

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Real up on his church history. So he's got his fangles all messed up. He's yeah, that's it's yeah

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Tangle of fangled. Yes and Yeah, I don't

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Either that or he studied at the Emery Cantor School of his Baptist history one of the two that's possibility, too there's some weird stuff going out there you got

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Yarnell and the revisionists trying to get rid of all the Calvinists and Southern Baptist history, but so here's um

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There's some interesting comments in channel right now that I won't I won't but but no

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Yeah, his name is Adam Ford so Adam for D not Adam for D Ford Well, it's how it's spelled.

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It's you wouldn't find if I said Adam Ford, you wouldn't be able to find him It it's Adam for D is how you find it when you google it and stuff like that.

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Whatever anyway, uh, I just want you to listen to this is an announcement that I'm gonna not

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I but that brother Tooley is is gonna be running for the presidency and This is

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I Don't know It just sort of speaks for itself. You ready for this?

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All right here. Here we go I don't know if you know it or not Back a few months ago back in November of last year.

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I was elected first vice president the Kentucky Baptist Convention I've had some folks approach me and I am running for the presidency of the

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Kentucky Baptist Convention this year and The reason why I'm running Thank you

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Is I feel like that there are That somebody needs to stand up and say something for folks that are in the pew

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And I don't think that that comes Out of Louisville. I don't think that has to come through Southern Seminary It's what

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I'm saying to you and I had a number of people approach me and asked me to run and I am some have asked me well, brother

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Jerry, we want you to get it if We do want you to get it, but will you be leaving if you if you do and no, of course

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I won't be leaving. I'm still going to be here. We'll still be the director of missions here. We'll just be a little

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Added run to Louisville and putting up with a whole lot of crazy stuff and that kind of thing

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But I feel like it's important that we stand up for what's right? And I think that it's time that somebody had enough gumption and brass about them to stand up for what's right and what's true and By George when they asked me

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I figured I was the guy and so We believe in a whosoever will gospel

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That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and that that's who is made that's what has made us as Baptists who we are and that somebody needs to stand up and say we're tired of this highfalutin new stuff that's coming around it's time for somebody to stand up and try to change some things and That's what we're going to try to do.

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Okay I Falutin new stuff the highfalutin new stuff now the the the lowfalutin new stuff is okay

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But highfalutin new stuff. That's what I Qualify to run for this office because all the stuff that I'm against That's basically it.

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Yep. I Want no no more this highfalutin new stuff. Well, I salute new stuff that that's right out

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You're you know, I I didn't do the accent you did yeah, but I can do it Just cuz cameras on you don't mean you can do that because you get to handle all the complaints

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You're gonna get from all of our brethren in Kentucky. So Yeah, there you go.

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I Don't I don't I don't even know What to say about that then we we can hope that the

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Relative qualifications of the two brethren who are put forward for the office will be appropriately analyzed and dealt with but Yeah, there's there's there's there's a little bit of of anti anti reformed sentiment out there somewhere

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Did y 'all see I I don't I don't talk politics Very much here.

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I mean we touch on it when it's it's cultural and things like that But I did make comment on Facebook last night because I saw a meme on Facebook and it did strike me and it

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It struck me because I I think for a long time. I have been pretty consistent in emphasizing the need for equal standards

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And hence, I must confess I am in constant agony these days when

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I Contemplate the mainstream media in the United States of America And this is true in all

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Socializing cultures and that's a I think it's a good term. This is a socializing culture.

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We are moving into socialism We fought it for a long time But now the next generation doesn't even know what it is

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Knows nothing about our history and has been convinced that all generations before ours were a bunch of privileged evil bigoted people anyways so we we have been defeated by our enemies because they took over the educational system and In socializing cultures, the first thing they do is they take over the media

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The media which is supposed to do journalism No longer even pretends to do journalism

28:28

No this past weekend story broke about Politico Going after Ben Carson now,

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I I mentioned on Facebook Ben Carson is not my number one candidate. I am NOT a Democrat I'm not a

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Republican. I'm neither one I am independent because neither one of them are conservative enough for me

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I mean as if there is such thing as a conservative Democrat anymore Anyways, and I'd rather straightforwardly on Facebook said

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I think they should change the name to the Socialist Party. So they'd be more honest And few

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Republicans maybe to the semi -socialist party because then they would be more honest too. But anyway but this hit piece came out on Ben Carson about West Point and this meme came up and I Re -posted it or whatever you do on Facebook because it

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Said so much and it's a congratulations. Dr. Ben Carson for being the first African -american candidate for the president

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United States whose background has been Investigated by the mainstream media by the press

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And it's exactly right It's exactly right. I mean, there's another Meme out there.

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I didn't try looking for it. I could probably find just by scrolling on my feed here, but There's another meme out here

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That has on the the top Ben Carson and on the bottom

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Barack Obama and what And it says

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You know, it talks about top essays for For Carson top

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SAT score in Michigan You know 20 honorary doctorates and you know all all the rest of this stuff

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And then below it has Barack Obama. It says records sealed And that's true

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That's true. I remember 2007 in 2008 and I remember All sorts of people going.

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Yeah, there it is Yeah, highest SAT score in Detroit 20 -year history graduated honors and accepted to Yale awarded 60 honorary doctorates

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That's Carson. Then it's got a picture of Obama records sealed and The media is perfectly fine with that.

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And if you don't think that that's not an example of double standards I don't even know what to say to you.

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And so I I'm I'm in agony Because I'm looking at this and and it's just the constant reminder of the hypocrisy

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That it has become absolutely established in our society and that is act absolutely how we are going to be

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Treated by this society as well and And you know, we saw it on CNN We if you go in expecting these people to treat you fairly you're going to be sorely disappointed

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So go in expecting reality and you might be able to make something good come out of it.

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But as I said on Facebook You know, I'd love to talk with dr. Carson about the investigative judgment really what

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I Someone said that I should read his book. Does he mention it in there? Could someone tell me?

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But someone maybe tweet me or Facebook me or something to where There is a mention or an explanation in dr.

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Carson's book About his theology and specifically the concept of it investigative judge because for me

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That's the dividing line that's the dividing line if you accept and Function on the basis of the concept investigative judgment,

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I believe it's false gospel. I really do That's the dividing line Are there seven -day

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Adventists that reject that? Yes, there are I would I would be overjoyed if he was one of them But then we'd have to start talking about when life begins cuz

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I don't think he's quite right on that he says about seven weeks and When the heart starts beating that's that's his his position

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So, like I said, and I also said this Of all the candidates

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I do get the feeling that if the founders the founders were looking at those candidates and just on the basis of What they envisioned the presidency to be?

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Ben Carson would be exactly who they would they would think should be present for one reason They didn't envision this kind of Political animal

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Where you have to have come up through the ranks of politics they wanted people who were

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Citizen patriots who would come to Washington do the right thing Do what was best for America and then leave?

33:48

You know, I I heard somebody I forget who it was talking about Harry Truman Harry Truman You know,

33:55

Harry Truman was concerned when he left the White House as to whether he was could be able to feed his family after he left the

34:02

White House Because unlike pretty much every president since then Truman refused to use his position to enrich himself to establish all those

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Relationships that would well just look at certain People who are running for the office today

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Who have already been grossly enriched by their Political machinations shall we say

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That's the kind of person they were looking for and I think on that level Ben Carson would be exactly the type of person they would be looking for so But just just the hypocrisy the double standards that and I and I what

34:44

I said was, you know I think he's too nice a guy to run for president He is going to be scarred by this no matter what no matter what

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Whether he gets it or not No matter what happens The the price that he and his family will have to pay

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Man it's awful. It's it's it's a big price and it's not a price that should be exacted.

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That's what I'm saying at least not in a nation that Well, anyway,

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I'm talking about a nation doesn't exist anymore to be pretty honest with you so we'll we'll move on from there

35:21

I Have said for a couple of weeks now that I wanted to address a particular question in the

35:35

Atheist debate In the debate on atheism that took place.

35:41

I don't even know what the date was, but it was what month ago And Cy and Jeff Durbin were on the

35:52

Christian side with the pastor of the church that the Bonson conference was held at and even up until even up until The the day of the of the debate all

36:03

I could find online was versus atheists just sort of generic

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You know, we just sort of walked through a university Mall and grabbed three people and they had long hair.

36:17

So it worked, you know type thing so so You know, once it was made available

36:26

I downloaded I listened to it on a ride and and it was It was a free -for -all and it was meant to be a free -for -all they kept reminding us that sort of meant to be this way and people are supposed to be talking over each other and stuff like that and That kind of stuff but What you know, there's lots of stuff

36:49

I could have said. I mean the opening atheist guy Was it Doug or Gary? He was the one they caught on on open mic saying never again

36:58

Cy His opening statement was just this this shotgun blast of disconnected

37:09

Unsubstantiated Non -reflective Standard Dan Barker Dennis McKinsey style surface level shallow

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Blah, I mean it was just it was no No worth to it at all. No no worth to it at all your standard

37:29

American atheist drivel Shows no meaningful knowledge of the subject though Some of the other atheists were a little more reflective

37:41

But anyway But of all that I heard there was this one audience question that made me go

37:49

I mean it was It would have been the Picard Riker double Face palm, you know what?

37:56

I mean? So those of you in Facebook know exactly what you've seen that the Picard Riker double facepalm. Okay Some people have even photoshopped that and threw in a third

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Riker for when it's real a third Picard or a second Picard Or when it's really really bad but The sad thing is

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I know which episode that was from that's that's the really sad part about the whole thing is

38:19

I remember that Never mind So it's a it's a

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Picard Riker double facepalm question thing here and The question was an honest and good question the response illustrated

38:37

The fundamental ignorance even of this entire atheist panel this entire atheist panel demonstrated a fundamental ignorance about the issue of intelligent design and what is evidence of intelligent design and I think it'd be worthwhile for us to listen to it and then point out what the problems are because you'll run into this all

39:03

The time and if you encounter an atheist that answers like these atheists did then, you know, you're you're talking to someone who has never either been willing to or Been had explained to them

39:17

What the evidence of intelligent design actually is because their response here is

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Completely out of bounds without a bounce. So let's Hope I've got the right one here get the cursor all the way back cross four screens and Here we go.

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Yes. I'd like to ask a practical question get a little away from some theology now, but I've always wanted to ask an atheist this question

39:51

But I never found one that it would admit that he was and I'm glad that I finally got to do this

39:59

I'm available online. Thank you At my age

40:04

I go to doctors quite a bit And when I look on in the doctor's office,

40:10

I see what the human body looks like and where all the parts are placed and It all works real fine and every once in a while some part doesn't work

40:22

That's why you go to the doctor so you can get it fixed now I'm kind of setting the table for a question.

40:29

So please be patient with me now When I we had my first my wife delivered our first child

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I went to the hospital and brought this little baby home. All the parts were in the right place all the parts worked and I thought to myself

40:51

Who designed this? There has to be something out there now, you don't believe there's straight to the question

40:59

So, let me ask you this How is it that the human body is designed in such a way in an absolute way?

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Who designed it? I'm afraid the the question

41:17

I Can't make a lot of sense of simply because I don't think that a designer is necessary I also don't think a designer is necessary every time a beautiful snowflake is created

41:29

I don't think someone drew that and and then gave the plans to the To the moisture in the air

41:37

Now, let me let me stop it right there Because that's what caught me now. I want to address the rest of what the answer is given as well that Demonstrates that this man.

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I don't know what his name is. I'm sorry Couldn't keep track of who was what and so on so forth aren't any graphics tell you but the

41:55

Middle Atheist there has no earthly clue If this is an honest response

42:03

Okay, if he's playing games, maybe maybe he does know and he's being purposely deceptive. I don't know. I don't know

42:09

But if this is an honest response, then he has no earthly clue What intelligent design means or even how to recognize intelligent design?

42:19

Because notice the error that he just made He talked about how a snowflake can be beautiful well

42:29

Not that we see many of them around here in in Arizona Well, okay south of Mogollon Rim They had snow in Flagstaff.

42:39

It's just a few days ago but We don't get much snow, but I did

42:47

I lived in Minnesota and Pennsylvania so I've seen a little snow seen a little snow and Snowflakes are beautiful.

42:58

Snow is beautiful. Well to a point Just a inter -family text any news

43:14

And the answer is new Uh Summer may be watching and this actually may be

43:22

Delaying because she may find the program so fascinating that That even the baby is is fascinated as well and is watch word of the day be anxious for nothing

43:36

Anyway The problem is this there are our beautiful structures in nature

43:47

Such as snowflakes minerals some crystalline forms a

43:55

Beautiful lattice work and and just you know Gorgeous but they don't carry

44:08

Information a snowflake The design may be complex and beautiful But it's not informational

44:20

It's not informational now the DNA Strand in the nucleus

44:28

With the specific coding that produces Millions of differing proteins and all of the incredibly complex

44:43

Structures of living cells and living bodies Nanomachines that we cannot with our greatest technology

44:56

Reproduce to this day using all of the intelligent design that we can come up with that DNA may not be nearly as pretty as A snowflake, but It carries

45:20

Information now someone might say well You know some information in a mineral lattice.

45:29

Well, yeah in it'll tell you What the various molecules are made of and how they're arranged but again the point is the ability to communicate data

45:44

The very building plans of a complex structure such as the human body

45:53

Are not found in the random joining together of molecules in a in a crystal or in the formation of water molecules in the air

46:08

That is completely random. It may be beautiful, but that's not the same thing as passing the test for communicating information now, for example,

46:19

I was pointing to My phone here and everything about this

46:30

Screams design Everything about it There is a screen

46:37

That happens to radiate electromagnetic radiation Within the visible realm of my eyeballs

46:44

Otherwise, it would always look like that Even went on because it could put out radiation outside of the realm that I could see

46:56

But no, it's uh, see it It puts out puts out radiation and you can see it too.

47:03

Isn't that amazing? Yeah, and There are these Buttons that I happen to be able to push with my fingers and When I hold it up to my ear the sound comes out to where I can hear it and my voice goes into where the other person can then hear and the apps have buttons in them that I can utilize so as to obtain further information and perform certain tasks and everybody

47:37

Looks at this and goes this is designed

47:43

To be able to accomplish a Particular task and man, we keep asking more and more and more and more of these little things every six months or so and People are more than happy to provide us with that because they then charge us great large amounts of money the

48:07

Design that is found in Biochemistry has a purpose and a function it communicates

48:18

Information and it communicates that over multiple generations Complex information and Specific information when you understand for example how enzymes work and How they have to have a particular molecular form and How they have to bind in a particular way and if there's so much as one molecule in the wrong place

48:52

So many of the diseases we now have come to understand have incredibly minor causes

49:02

Minor in the sense of it's it's just one little thing out of place that level of specificity is

49:15

Absolutely necessary. And so I don't know if this gentleman understands that I don't know if he understands what

49:25

You know what biochemistry has has revealed to us the Darwin knew nothing about had no clue about at all, but that the level of complexity and Interaction and Function All of which goes far beyond anything that I'm holding in my hand and no

49:50

Rational human being would ever say that this arose accidentally none none but there they sit and with the very minds and bodies that exhibit that clear unequivocal unquestionable evidence of Absolute intelligent design

50:14

They will use their intelligence to say I don't see a designer. Where is it?

50:20

There's I don't see a designer anywhere It's amazing The only way explain these are intelligent men

50:28

It's a spiritual issue Spiritual issue. So when you hear somebody saying that and referring to snowflakes or crystals or things like that They don't get it they don't get it they've they've they've completely and totally

50:48

Missed it. Missed it They don't get it As as you well know and alluded to the human body does not work.

50:57

So well, so sometimes I shouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for modern medicine and science and logic and reason and all those things that I suppress

51:06

God to use apparently Yeah, you know, I would not want to have to answer for those words someday

51:14

I Really wouldn't The the the mockery and again

51:26

Okay, so he's had some medical procedures. So have I So have

51:31

I I think he says he had his appendix out. So did I I was in first grade

51:38

And He's gonna say it, you know, he's good do the old vestigial organ thing.

51:44

Actually, you've discovered that there's a number of functions that the appendix is helpful in But he's gonna go down that that road but the mockery of well, you know, it was just science it was logic

52:04

He probably knows That the vast majority of advances in medicine were done by people who believe that you could actually examine the human body and and Do so in a meaningful fashion because God created a be pride knows that pride knows that but anyway

52:19

Those those things we we and we understand now I I was able to get my appendix taken out which would have killed me otherwise because that's a rather useless piece inside my body

52:31

That's left over from just the the way that Nature has developed such beings there notice how they cannot avoid he's sitting there saying

52:43

I Don't see a need for a designer and yet nature has developed such beings

52:49

They can't avoid it You know, I was a bio -major in college and even though I was a

52:58

Christian college didn't use Christian textbooks and These secular textbooks promoting explaining the theory of evolution could not do so in the

53:10

English language without utilizing language of design and Even a couple times even stumble into admitting the beauty of what seems like design but really isn't

53:22

Well, no, actually it really is. It really is. It's it's great designer. That's necessary One addition into that is it's wonderful to go through now.

53:32

I gotta admit sigh looks like he completely checked out At this point. Did you see that?

53:40

There Yo, sigh, dude, I know it was hot up there, but I'm not sure what

53:48

Jeff's doing. He looks like he's Tweeting or doing something. I don't know but but but sigh is sigh has left the building at this

54:01

Minute Punch the clock left the building so that is it's wonderful to go through the biological textbooks and find out other species that are similar to us that have all the parts that we have and Then start going back even further and some of them don't have some of the parts and other parts and to see how there are parts and other parts and many parts and the fact we all live in an oxygen nitrogen atmosphere with a certain amount of Of gravity and have to eat the same kind of food

54:33

Shouldn't be relevant to why we have similar parts. I Don't know evolution came to design where we're at right now.

54:42

It's all in the the I lost my train of thoughts for a moment

54:48

It's all a miracle survival of the fittest Those people who maybe had an extra part or didn't have a big enough part at that particular time in their environment

54:57

I just love you know, I've told the story before I'll tell it very quickly when

55:05

I graduated from Grand Canyon College I majored in biology and Bible minored in Greek and the first book

55:11

I read after I graduated was blind watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, I wanted to read the best the other side had to say

55:16

I'd had to provide and I Had since high school

55:24

All of my biology professors my biology teacher in high school My biology professors in college were all trying to convince me of the evolutionary theory

55:32

So from the time I was a sophomore in high school, I was being given college level articles on natural selection and and the whole nine yards and so It it is very clear to me that very few atheists

55:53

Do anything more than just repeat the mantras Because the whole concept of natural selection and No Christian that I know of that knows anything about this subject denies that natural selection takes place obviously it does

56:14

Side just sighs listening Actually, I wanted to call him on calling a snowflake beautiful, but knew

56:21

I wouldn't get the chance I Don't know what you were staring at, but it was well beyond the confines of the back wall of that room

56:34

Into eternity anyway It wasn't meant as a criticism. It was just you know, the other guys were talking and yet for some reason they're they're showing you and You know, like I said, it looked like Jeff was tweeting something.

56:49

I don't know but Anyways, these guys don't really understand natural selection Natural selection takes place.

56:57

Everybody knows natural selection takes place. There's there's nothing that can be argued that if if your

57:04

Genetic manifestation gives you an advantage in having more offspring than someone else's genetic manifestation

57:11

Then you're gonna end up with more offspring in the gene pool and you're gonna predominate over time Assuming that the environmental conditions remain stable which very frequently did not but that reality which allows life to adapt which would be predicted by a creationist model is made to become the very engine of Change in the evolutionary model and it's not it's not a big enough engine to do that Um, it functions on a very small scale in regards to the genetic

57:53

Material available to work with And it's just not a big enough engine to run this this thing it's really not

58:01

Okay. Now I'm getting all the responses here Let's see

58:09

Okay, so summer says to you Rich yeah, you try not being anxious the seven -pound baby kicking your ribs all day.

58:17

Okay, so there's there's yours Si says, oh, I was definitely checking out And then

58:24

Jeff just popped in with I wasn't tweeting I was probably staring at my notes wishing there was a debate protocol and actual rules.

58:32

I might have been playing Angry Birds You had something electronic in your hand,

58:37

I know that So There you go So we've got we've got sigh and Jeff are both listening and I did not tell them that I was gonna be doing this.

58:48

So Maybe word got around. I don't know but There you go.

58:54

And summer's summer is listening to as well. How you doing, honey? Yes, you're just holding that baby

59:00

Telling that baby to stay calm until you're the dividing lines done. I know what you're doing. I But here's here's phone

59:10

I'm just just waiting I'm just waiting I was Jeff, you know, okay Okay, all right anyways

59:20

You know book says I need to do the dividing line in a distraction free zone now people love it People people love watching me do the fact my whole

59:28

Sunday school lesson Sunday was the squirrel us squirrel Yeah, it was it wasn't totally my fault either

59:35

I Dared mention something about Roman Catholicism all sudden. Hey, I've got a what about and you know, because I was telling folks we're gonna do the church history thing again and Jeff says he's always stalking me.

59:47

So yeah, that's that's true and Hey Jeff Josh passed his brown belt in Krav.

59:54

So be careful. I can send him after you now. Okay, just You may do your your thing, but he's got jiu -jitsu and all that other stuff down too so just You're getting older dude.

01:00:06

I hate to tell you that See in a little, you know this kind of stuff this life

01:00:13

Anyway, what were you talking about? We're talking about atheists don't understand natural selection. Um, The engine is too small in fact, it's it's

01:00:22

Reminds me. I saw the Martian over the weekend because I'd read the book and So I wanted to see and they stuck pretty cool

01:00:29

I mean they had to take a bunch of stuff out they had to you know, the book was long Only at the end that they decide to try to Rev stuff up a little bit.

01:00:39

I won't tell you how but And then they add some stuff at the end because the book ended rather abruptly

01:00:47

But one of the problems they had was how to Get a certain ship to a certain place and it they used to look that they had was called an ion engine

01:00:57

And one of the things they explained was it's great for long distance, but it's too small to do something

01:01:04

Real fast to make major changes exact parallel to natural selection

01:01:11

Evolution requires it to Do a whole lot more than what it's actually designed to do

01:01:19

Designed to do and that is to allow for living organisms to adapt to a changing environment

01:01:25

Which is sort of like what God wanted them to do But anyway, so they don't really get this stuff and they're just repeating what they're being told by by other folks

01:01:34

I don't know survived kept on going so that is not anything to do with social Darwinism right here right now this has to do with the survival of the fittest and that's part of it study it

01:01:44

It's a fascinating experience Just find out why physically we are the way we are

01:01:51

Why is it a fascinating experience, I mean, it's just random there's nothing fascinating about it because there's no purpose

01:01:59

I Yeah, anyway There you go. I'm shutting that one down.

01:02:05

So you can you can drop that one out of the picture. I'm going to another Thing here and that'll be our

01:02:15

Last thing for the day. Um, so there you go. I just found that Look just said give the sign of the

01:02:27

Alexandrian cult when the spoilers are over. I guess he hasn't seen the marsh I wasn't giving any spoilers.

01:02:33

I was just saying that I wanted to see how they translated that to To the screen and it did a fairly decent job,

01:02:44

I mean The book was weird Because I actually found myself sitting here listening for a long period of time because I did it.

01:02:53

I did it through audible I'm just telling you right now The guy that did it on audible got a bunch of awards for how well he did it and there were times

01:03:03

There's some profanity, but there were there were times. I just Laughed out loud. I mean the guy really did a good job

01:03:09

And of course, I'm a space guy I mean, I remember my dad installing a sound system at a

01:03:16

Church and I was laying in the pews because I was too little doing reading Mike Mars You met did you did you read any the

01:03:22

Mike Mars, but you knew who he was? No. Okay, Mike Mars was you know space exploration astronaut stuff, you know and That was that was my big why'd you why'd you put

01:03:35

Bart Ehrman up there already? Because I thought that's where you were headed next. You know, one of these days.

01:03:41

We're actually gonna get a Sidetrack that's gonna actually put us back on track One of these days one of these days.

01:03:50

Hey, you know random whatever. Yeah, I'm just Covering covering the waterfront man.

01:03:55

There's covering the waterfront. That's that's all there is to it Um now what I was saying was if you do like audible, you know

01:04:02

I've got an audible account and I've really enjoyed it That the

01:04:08

Martian was really really well done and Then Oh, what are you doing that for?

01:04:15

and then another book I just finished that was Slow at the start but worth pushing through was called killing

01:04:24

Rommel killing Rommel. It was about the Our LRDG the long -range desert group the

01:04:31

British group in North Africa in 1942 1943 and It's historical fiction like the

01:04:37

Shara stuff, but based on facts and Ended up being really good end up being really good.

01:04:43

So a couple audible recommendations for you if you do the audible thing

01:04:51

Good stuff to good stuff to do. All right, so we've covered a movie review we've covered the atheist question a little

01:05:01

Ben Carson thrown in there a little Kentucky Baptist Convention politics that you're gonna get to answer all the questions about because you're the one that did the

01:05:18

Did the accent? You did I didn't do it. Hey, I come from somewhere you can have an accent like that.

01:05:26

No, no, I'm sorry I didn't know Prescott does not know. No, it's it look at how we pronounce the name of the town.

01:05:33

No Sorry, you have not been deep enough

01:05:38

South to think the Prescott is even close to rating that no Okay, let's get back to What some of you wish that some of you sit out there and you have no

01:05:51

Sense of humor whatsoever. I Have met so many colonists who

01:05:56

I Don't know that I'd want to know you in life You're just dry boring and Now I had one guy

01:06:08

I blocked him. I Looked at my Twitter block list. I've got 282 people on my

01:06:13

Twitter block list Um, yeah rich changing camera views so he can also be artsy, uh -huh.

01:06:20

Yeah That's exactly what you're trying to do there That's pretty sharp there son

01:06:26

Tim picked right up on that didn't you Tim? From somewhere is saying seriously wondering what this

01:06:32

DL will be called and Then Timothy asks, how come your books are not on audible cuz

01:06:39

I'm a nobody. That's why I don't even know which one I'm a nobody. That's why your books have got to be pretty famous to end up on audible.

01:06:49

So nobody I mean, can you imagine the grief book on audible?

01:06:55

That wouldn't be good and Who would read them anyways with all the Greek and Hebrew and all that kind of weird stuff?

01:07:03

All right, we press on with Bart Ehrman and his comments in regards to the subject of the deity of Christ we began this on the last program and We will have 53 minutes to press on with this cover a lot of Ground, I think it's important We're doing a mega dividing line today again all

01:07:30

If if summer doesn't like my review of ermine she could stop it in a sec

01:07:40

You You've totally thrown me off here we're doing a show on Monday no less and it's twice as long.

01:07:45

Yep Yep, you didn't you didn't know it was gonna be a mega -sized one. You didn't tell me that.

01:07:51

Oh, well see folks This is evidence that you know, you call me up and you ask me when is this or what's he gonna talk about today?

01:07:59

And I find out just about 30 seconds before you do. That's right. So that's right. I don't know.

01:08:05

What can I say? No, no I mean there's a couple other things that I was thinking about talking about that I've decided not to at this particular point in time, so You know when people ask me what's the topic today

01:08:18

I normally say religious stuff that that gives me Freedom to go with the flow if I was charismatic

01:08:25

I'd say follow the leadings of the spirit, but I'm not Not charismatic. So we won't go there.

01:08:31

All right back to Back to serious stuff That's pretty good that was artsy that was artsy rich as a reunion you there you go

01:08:42

That's very that that's how that's that's sort of what the movie did seem like to me a little bit

01:08:48

Especially if you do that while he's talking and I'm talking at the same time And then throw some static into it.

01:08:53

We're we're good. We're on it Why do we see a false move there

01:09:00

I wasn't I'm about to follow the lead you just pulled it away Right off from underneath me. Why do we review

01:09:06

Bart Ehrman? I am amazed. I have to admit that is probably the first time

01:09:13

I've ever seen him in a suit and tie but Bart that suit ain't looking so good that I Mean, honestly, he does not look well in that in that shot right there.

01:09:26

I mean that the suit the jacket looks like it's about Of 40 pounds ago and I've done the 40 pounds ago thing

01:09:33

I mean I've gone from 254 pounds down to um, I've picked up a couple pounds recently.

01:09:40

So I'm about 174 So yeah, that's 80 pounds. And so yeah, I get it, but I'm I'm sort of wondering if if he's doing okay, because this doesn't doesn't look real well there

01:09:53

I've had a number of other people comments Doesn't look good. I hope nothing's wrong. I do not wish any ill upon.

01:10:00

Dr. Ehrman. I Would pray for his repentance actually well repentance unto life because I doubt that that's ever been his situation in the past anyway

01:10:12

This was the debate with the Dallas prof Justin Bass on the subject of deity of Christ and Specifically whether Jesus believed himself to be divine and we've already noted that Bart's primary approach here is

01:10:36

Going to be to limit Not only the range of information that can be brought into the debate

01:10:42

But the method of interpretation that can be applied to it to a naturalistic realm.

01:10:48

So his idea is History is naturalistic History cannot you know, you can't write a history saying

01:10:55

God did this and God did that if you if you allowed for that Then you would never be able to do meaningful history so You have to come up with some other

01:11:13

Reason Background cause

01:11:19

Than God now, of course Someone like myself would never say you don't do history by just simply going.

01:11:26

Well, whatever happened God made happen and go home there's obviously a Balance to be found somewhere in here.

01:11:34

But but dr. Ehrman doesn't believe that there is a balance Dr. Ehrman likes to say he's a historian

01:11:43

And used as the means of avoiding The many

01:11:49

Contradictions and errors that he makes on a theological level. This is something he's done for a long long time

01:11:56

But he is addressing a specifically theological issue because history can't tell you what

01:12:01

Jesus thought and The whole idea of the deity of Christ is outside the realm of any naturalistic history in the first place

01:12:10

So why is he even bothering? Well because he has a theological position He just doesn't want to actually have to stand up and do the theology part

01:12:19

That's that's the problem. So we'll pick up where we last left off in listening to Bart's presentation

01:12:27

Here we go They say this age without having collaborated with one another if you're a historian this is your wish list

01:12:52

Suppose you want to write a biography of Alexander the Great You want a lot of sources that are near his time that are basically consistent with one another

01:13:02

That agree on how they present Alexander the Great and what he said what he did without having borrowed this information from each other.

01:13:10

That's what you want as a historian You want that for Alexander the Great one for Julius Caesar and you want it for Jesus If you're approaching the

01:13:20

New Testament as a historian you have to bracket your personal theological beliefs

01:13:26

You have to approach it the way historians approach sources. Okay.

01:13:31

So once again, just you know, just just briefly Not gonna expand upon it Every time we review

01:13:38

Bart Ehrman every time we review his debates We've debate we've reviewed many of them, you know, when

01:13:43

I hear people saying are you Christians? You just you just you know, you just sweep everything. It doesn't go your way under the rug

01:13:51

That's not what we do on the dividing line That's that's not our way of doing things

01:13:57

We take on these folks directly and we let them speak as we are doing right now

01:14:03

But here it is again over and over again same thing that's not how historians do it and he gets to define what the methodology needs to be and Unfortunately a lot of people in the

01:14:20

Academy Have so capitulated to the naturalistic worldview when it comes to how academics are done

01:14:28

That a lot of people on our side are really not in a position to Put up much of a fight when it comes to the fact that from a

01:14:39

Christian perspective Jesus Christ is Lord of history and The biblical teaching is that God is working out his purposes in history

01:14:54

Now whatever else that means that means if you're going to be a consistent Christian you can still be a historian and You can still utilize the best methods of historical research

01:15:08

But you're gonna have to think through the worldview issues especially when it comes to issues of motivation and Answering questions of why which most historians cannot answer and do not try to answer by the way

01:15:24

Because it's from their perspective beyond their purview But These sources are problematic for historians.

01:15:37

I'm not saying that they're problematic for believers I'm not saying you shouldn't base your lives on the teachings of Jesus found in the

01:15:44

New Testament I'm saying if you want to know what Jesus really said did these sources are problematic

01:15:51

Let me explain why If we're looking for those kinds of sources, what do we have in the

01:15:57

New Testament? I Stop it there not for any other reason then I was reminded just now of the

01:16:05

Fact that I learned after the last program that the man who asked the question of Bart Ehrman that I mentioned last time and that is what would you accept as Proper Confirmation That we have the original

01:16:26

Gospel of Mark remember it's interesting People afterwards were immediately telling me by the way

01:16:32

The person asked that question was Justin Bass the guy he's debating now, which I find fascinating And the other thing was did you notice what

01:16:41

I did? I Actually helped Bart out

01:16:46

I did What Bart asked for was actually far more ridiculous

01:16:55

Than I even remembered it to be I mean what he asked for about, you know

01:17:03

Ten copies of Mark written with him in like ten. I said what like six months. I think it was I think was ten days signed by Mark, I Mean it was it was so Outrageously ridiculous that in my mind

01:17:17

I could not imagine Anyone Of any scholarly level whatsoever who could actually put forward such an absurdity as that and afterwards people were sending me

01:17:30

YouTube links to there was a YouTube video that Had Dan Wallace Shortly after the debate talking about how he had demonstrated clearly that Bart Ehrman is a radical

01:17:47

Skeptic and here's why and he gave the exact things that that Bart of demand And so there was a bunch of stuff that came through Twitter after the program that Pointed out that yeah, and and I wasn't

01:18:02

I wasn't purposefully trying To help Bart out. It's just that You know in the intervening couple of years

01:18:11

It just seems like you know, someone that intelligent just couldn't couldn't be that radical

01:18:16

I guess, you know, and and so it and And it actually was as bad as that's bad as everybody said so I and and then it was

01:18:26

Actually, Justin Bass who asked that question Which is interesting that then they would end up being the two that are debating in this context

01:18:41

We agree pretty much that the Gospels are written decades after the life of Jesus now

01:18:48

I will take I Will take Bart's lead here

01:18:56

How many decades You know, this is an area where if you want an example, you go into seminary and If you've never put a lot of thought

01:19:15

Into The dating of the Gospels When were the

01:19:20

Gospels written? you go into seminary and you're sitting there and Most the time you can really tell

01:19:30

That your professor has done a lot of work Really knows this stuff.

01:19:36

I remember once Toward the end of my master's with Fuller and Pretty well -known

01:19:47

Old Testament professor. I'm taking the prophets prophets class from He had written a commentary on Esther Think about that for a second.

01:20:02

How do you write a book that thick on Esther? Anyway We had some some other students and I were sitting there before class

01:20:17

And we had a question about Hebrew and this is dr.

01:20:23

Hubbard from Denver I don't guess there's no reason not to mention his name and We asked him about it and Cold no preparation

01:20:38

No, no nothing just glance at the text Bing bing bing bing bing. There's your answer you

01:20:47

You you recognize that these guys really know what they're talking about. They've they've been around they've been doing this stuff for a while.

01:20:54

Okay, and So when they tell you that from their perspective they think

01:21:01

X Y & Z About areas that you've never really

01:21:08

Done a lot of thinking on it's it's pretty easy to see why without really

01:21:14

Listening to other sides other perspectives you end up developing a consensus, but it's a consensus of Capitulation it's it's a consensus of well, it's just what everybody's saying it's not because everyone's really done a lot of serious in -depth work on it and So when you talk about the dating of the

01:21:39

Gospels What's the basis For the late dating of the

01:21:46

Gospels. Well, if you listen to Bart Ehrman's lectures,

01:21:52

I didn't mean to freeze him in the middle of drinking his water, but If you listen to Bart Ehrman's lectures he has certain theories about What the early church looked like for example, one of the reasons he doesn't believe that first second

01:22:11

Timothy or Titus are apostolic That is written by Paul is because the form of the church revealed therein is

01:22:29

Too advanced given Ehrman's Theory as to what the church was to look like at that time

01:22:41

Well, what if you don't accept Ehrman's theory? about the evolution of the hierarchy of the

01:22:49

Christian Church when you start really digging into the dating issue, there are all sorts of assumptions that have been made that are extremely challengeable

01:23:07

That pushed those dates farther and farther back a number of people have made a very good argument

01:23:14

That there are things said Especially in the synoptic

01:23:19

Gospels Especially in like the Olivet discourse That if those books were actually written after the destruction of Jerusalem, they don't make much sense

01:23:34

And they wouldn't have been written the way that they're written Because there seem to be things that are left unfulfilled

01:23:43

If if you're writing after those events, why would you write the way that you did? But if you're writing prophetically and especially if you see both near and far prophetic fulfillments in regards to Judgment upon Israel Second coming of Christ things like that which gets into all the preterism stuff and all the rest of that stuff

01:24:11

If you Think those things through there's a there's a lot of good reason to think that at least

01:24:20

Mark and Matthew are pre 70 and there's a really good reason to think that Luke acts is

01:24:28

Probably mid 50s why? There's a theory. It's a good theory. I think that Luke acts is a amicus brief it is something that Luke submits to the

01:24:42

Caesar as Evidence of the fact that Christians are not the enemies of the Caesar But that they are preaching a gospel that is centered upon who

01:24:52

Jesus was here's what Jesus taught His is a heavenly kingdom we are teaching people to live lives that are just and righteous and to assist others and so on so forth if This was actually written and notice how odd the ending of acts is

01:25:12

Sort of like it's written right around that time, huh? Well if Paul's arrested mid 50s late 50s

01:25:21

This would be long before the fall of Jerusalem. It would make sense for it to be written at that time

01:25:27

It wouldn't make much sense to be written later than that and so there are but you never hear people talking about that and when

01:25:35

I talk with seminary graduates who just Automatically by late dating. Oh, yeah

01:25:40

Matthew's 80s and Luke's 90s and John's 110 or whatever, you know, and I go why?

01:25:47

Have you thought about these things? Have you have you looked in this? Well, no, but my you know, my new test of a professor she was just That's what everybody says, isn't it?

01:26:00

And So I Would love to see a

01:26:08

Meaningful debate on the actual dating of the Gospels. I've not seen anything like that Because if you really dug into it you discover that so much of what has been accepted even across the evangelical landscape is just based upon presuppositions that Not a lot.

01:26:27

Not a lot of good reason to buy into those things Now was there a period of Apostolic preaching of course there was

01:26:38

Am I saying that that mark was written, you know 20 days after the

01:26:44

Ascension of Jesus now, of course not. All right, there would be no reason to even to even think that But personally,

01:26:51

I think you can make a really strong argument for Talking. Well, we know that Paul's writings are late 40s mid 50s we can we can pretty much demonstrate that and Ermin even accepts that at least for the

01:27:06

Books of Paul he accepts as being Pauline. He has a very minimized Pauline corpus only seven books um

01:27:16

But when it comes to the Gospels, I think you can make a strong case If you're gonna put mark first late 40s

01:27:31

Matthew and Luke I think are pretty much concurrent and probably late 50s

01:27:40

John You know, some people have argued for a pre 70 John I I'm a little more comfortable with a later

01:27:49

John. I think that would explain all the differences. I Think one of the reasons that you have some of the synoptic differences is because they're written so early that there are people that are

01:28:00

Still alive that they that they have to keep in mind That you can only say certain things in published works in light of the persecution that is currently taking place

01:28:11

John's far enough down the road that a lot of those issues aren't aren't relevant anymore Um, so I don't have any problem putting

01:28:20

John later as he has traditionally been put But some people have made it made an argument pre 70

01:28:33

Wow there is a 10 minute discussion of the dating of the Gospels let's

01:28:39

Let dr. Ehrman finish his drink and continue on Ad Justin is dating in between 60 and 95

01:28:51

Jesus died around died around here 30 That means the gospels were written 30 to 60 years later

01:29:03

They are our earliest sources The first account of Jesus words

01:29:12

Comes to us from a source written 30 40 50 years later

01:29:19

Well, who wrote these books worth the eyewitnesses the off now to catch that 30 40 50 years later

01:29:27

Now again, this is very effective In the modern context, it's very effective because we are living in a day of Of Instant video coverage of everything because we're all running around with with these things, you know,

01:29:46

I mean a couple years ago the Japanese tsunami I Heard about it and saw it first because of Twitter Ball link from Twitter then

01:29:59

I turned the TV on and they were behind what I had already seen online Okay, so this is what we're used to This is an

01:30:09

Absolutely unique period in human history on that level Absolutely unique remember

01:30:15

World War two. No, most of us don't But you would be reading in the newspaper about battles that took place two weeks ago

01:30:26

That's just that's just how it worked yeah, that's just how it worked at the and So the idea of a 30 40 50 years now,

01:30:36

I'm I'm thinking more 15 20 30 years Myself but As meant to communicate to the the modern secularist, oh, yeah

01:30:52

Can't can't trust a and can't trust any of that And they'll they'll actually he and Justin will get into that later on in the in the discussion

01:31:06

They don't play people named Matthew Mark Luke and John They are written anonymously.

01:31:13

They are not written in Jesus native language in Aramaic They're written in another language Greek. They were not written by lower -class fishermen and other peasants

01:31:22

They were written by highly educated Greek -speaking people living 40 50 years later who are living in other parts of the world that is his theory

01:31:33

But he states it as a fact. He doesn't try to substantiate it He doesn't he assumes that Peter could not write what he wrote because it's too high for Peter Even though Peter has an amanuensis he ignores the reality that Paul is a highly educated individual and yet he's writing

01:31:55

Material that comes from the very earliest strata of tradition of the Christian faith

01:32:00

He looks at Matthew and Mark and Luke Luke is obviously highly educated

01:32:07

There's no question of that. But why do you have to meet? why do you have to think that they're nowhere near all the evidence of the use of patrimony that the the

01:32:18

Place names the knowledge of the geography of Palestine Jerusalem Judea Galilee all of it points to Documents that are written by people who at least at one point even if they are not there now as they write were at one point in those places and Knew those places intimately otherwise, you have to you have to do what he does and that is accused the authors of being disingenuous of being dishonest because they represent themselves as having been there and Give clear evidence of their having been there.

01:32:59

So here you have Bart Ehrman doing the I'm the James a gray distinguished professor

01:33:04

You just listen to what I have to say this is argumentum ad authoritum

01:33:12

I am Bart Ehrman. Listen to me roar and Most people just go.

01:33:17

Yes, sir. Yes, sir Okay. All right, and I go no afraid not

01:33:24

You can make those arguments if you want, but you aren't substantiating them and that makes me wonder why?

01:33:32

Why why does your demeanor become one of the you know, you can you know When you don't have a good substantiation for your argument yell louder.

01:33:40

You've heard that one before That's what you got here. That's what you got here Very very

01:33:49

Arguable assertions being made there and yet they're central to his point Where did they get their information from they don't tell us?

01:33:59

Luke indicates that people have passed on this information to the time their eyewitnesses

01:34:05

But what are his specific sources? He doesn't tell us mark doesn't tell us Matthew doesn't tell us

01:34:11

John doesn't tell us What scholars have long thought is that these stories have come down to the gospel writers by word of mouth

01:34:20

There weren't gospels floating around a year after he's died or two years later or five Catch that my

01:34:27

Muslim friends. I completely agree that They are drawing from Now now he's putting them someplace else

01:34:38

Okay, so he's he's saying these are not individuals that have the the direct connections that we would say

01:34:45

Mark had to Peter that Matthew had directly as a disciple that Luke had with Paul The John had as one of the disciples or even if you take the hey

01:34:56

You can take the other theory that that the gospel of John is written by the beloved disciple

01:35:01

But one of the Jerusalem disciples Doesn't really make any difference as far as the reliability of the information is concerned to be perfectly honest with you really doesn't

01:35:12

But all those He's thrown those out. And so now you've got people out there someplace

01:35:20

Who are highly educated Greek speakers? Who are now going on?

01:35:26

What somebody told what somebody told what somebody told this is this is what he wants you to be thinking is

01:35:33

That well, they're going on what they were told told by whom? Now at one point

01:35:42

Because I forget which which debate was it was that was it the one on I think it was the one

01:35:50

Was it with Craig Evans? Off top my head. I'm thinking

01:35:56

That Irma and Evans Did an unbelievable program on Irma's book forged.

01:36:02

That's just what I'm remembering. I Remembering a point that I thought Evans made against Irma and listening to an unbelievable broadcast northbound 35th

01:36:10

Avenue toward the bridge just south of pinnacle The old index kicking in it was before sunrise.

01:36:20

Yeah, okay. Um, I Think that's who it was anyway This is a part of the

01:36:33

The ermine thing that he demands that let me let me just I hate when

01:36:41

I click on that show us That stories have been changed over the years.

01:36:48

Let me okay that I Think that was in that debate where Someone and I thought was

01:36:56

Craig Evans asked him If he had read thought

01:37:05

I had it in here actually Thought I had kept it in here just to hold up for camera shots, but You know,

01:37:18

I don't See it down there if he had read Jesus and the eyewitnesses what? Yeah, they're all

01:37:25

Darrell Bach. That's right. Darrell Bach. That's who it was. Yeah, that's who it was Craig Evans.

01:37:30

No, it was Darrell Bach. His doubt is Dallas guy Darrell Bach. They're on they're on unbelievable, right? Ah, good good. Okay Yes, well and Bach I think was the one who asked him.

01:37:43

I have you not read Jesus and the eyewitnesses Richard Balcom's book and he didn't show any familiarity with it now interestingly enough.

01:37:53

He's been criticized for that Roundly, it had to have gotten back to him because at one point

01:37:59

I doubt Sure, we'll get into it, you know Reviewing this it may may pop up.

01:38:04

I don't know but At one point ermine almost

01:38:10

With the Oh, please attitude Yeah, so, of course

01:38:16

I have of course I have well and Bach asked him he didn't seem to have indicated it But he doesn't take very seriously

01:38:25

The idea That the eyewitnesses continued to exercise any meaningful influence in the maintenance

01:38:38

Promulgation purity of The oral preaching of the church prior to the writing of the canonical

01:38:47

Gospels. He just doesn't Just he seems to dismiss that just the same way is

01:38:55

Someone sent me a picture. I think I'll go sent me a picture of him rolling his eyes One of the times

01:39:00

I mentioned the persecution of the early church During the during our debate and it was just sort of like oh really, you know, and and it's just Strikes me as amazing

01:39:17

That someone who does textual criticism would not recognize how vitally important the govern

01:39:24

Mental attempt to destroy the religion producing these documents would be to a textual critic

01:39:30

I mean, that's just that's just a given There's an example of his tradition his agnostic tradition deeply influencing and I would say corrupting his work in that particular field, but We have gone

01:39:47

Far enough on that one About the discrepancies of our gospels and I should just say up front

01:39:52

This is what convinced me that my views about the Bible were wrong when I was When I was in my 20s when

01:39:59

I was diligently studying The New Testament Gospels in the original

01:40:05

Greek. I started finding discrepancies. I knew people had said that I didn't believe it was just a bunch of liberals saying these things.

01:40:12

So I didn't believe them. Then I started studying. I started realizing There are discrepancies Now not just a second just a second just one second

01:40:22

Not don't you don't need to facepalm yet look,

01:40:28

I know That there, you know, I know his story. I've read his books.

01:40:34

I know his quote -unquote testimony you know nominal

01:40:40

Christian background, you know Episcopalian type stuff but Quote -unquote converted as a teenager goes to Moody Goes to Wheaton finally goes to Princeton.

01:40:52

This is happening at Princeton doesn't happen at Wheaton and Moody now Is it possible?

01:41:00

That someone could Avoid seriously thinking through Synoptic issues

01:41:11

Seriously thinking through the basic challenges, you know, the the thing that he mentions is

01:41:20

Abbey a Thar the high priest Mark, that's that's a

01:41:26

Professor wrote on his paper. Maybe mark was just wrong and that opened the floodgates. That's that's what allowed him to See the light is it possible

01:41:39

That he could have just been so checked out During the course of Moody and Wheaton That he never did a synoptic study

01:41:54

Yeah, I Suppose it's possible says a lot about the level of his study at those places

01:42:03

But yeah, I suppose it's possible You know,

01:42:08

I have to keep in mind that What we've been doing at PRBC for Nine over nine years now now, it's not been nine consecutive years in the sense of I do a lot of traveling these days

01:42:24

But we are this close this close to finishing a nine year study of the synoptic gospels and I don't have it in here

01:42:37

Please don't think I have it here But somewhere Probably yeah.

01:42:44

Oh, no, there it is right down there. I'm not sure if I'm too tethered to get to it Yep, synopsis quattro.

01:42:51

You're in gallium. There it is blue blue text right down Get ermine out of the way

01:42:58

There you go, all right there there is the synopsis quattro you're in gallium That's the

01:43:06

Greek one, but we've been using English one same thing We have been studying The synoptic

01:43:13

Gospels from the start in the exact way that Bart Ehrman says it should be done and that is in parallel not going through Matthew then

01:43:23

Mark then Luke and John but going through in parallel and across If you listen to him you would think that most

01:43:33

Christians never do that and certainly no No conservative Christians ever do that because if conservative

01:43:40

Christians did that then they would see all these discrepancies Well, we have certainly seen all the discrepancies

01:43:50

And what's a discrepancy? discrepancy is where Matthew Mark and Luke are not photocopies of each other and Who in the world would think that they should be?

01:44:01

well, evidently barter and evidently use of fist mail and All the

01:44:08

Muslims Who will constantly point to any difference in phraseology?

01:44:14

Chronology or anything else between Matthew Mark and Luke as they see they should be photocopies of each other Don't worry about when the

01:44:21

Quran isn't a photocopy of itself, but that's a different issue You'll be able to see how that works out well somewhat once we get the videos

01:44:32

Which we should be getting fairly soon From the debates in Durban anyway, it is a naive approach

01:44:46

To just simply throw out all the discrepancies all the discrepancies. I started seeing all these discrepancies

01:44:52

One of the reasons I've done what I've done at PRBC is to make sure that everyone who has been through that class

01:44:58

And of course when you do it over a decade Obviously almost nobody has been through all of them

01:45:03

I can think of Brick Darrow and and Jim Kelly and a few folks like that that have now been through pretty much all of it, but I Want to make sure that the students in my class

01:45:19

When they go to university when they run in the people who look to this man as their leader

01:45:25

Will be able to with confidence Not with arrogance but with confidence

01:45:33

Respond to what the man has to say respond to what they are taught In those classes and I am very thankful I can think of individuals who sat through that class at least sat through years of that class went off to university

01:45:48

Got in touch to me later on said guess what? She were right That's exactly what

01:45:54

I ran into and it's exactly like you said this is what they said this is how they argued it Wow, it's like It's like you've been there.

01:46:04

Yeah. Yeah, just a little bit and That's what I want would

01:46:11

I suggest to Teachers pastors and a listening audience that this might be a study you might want to consider

01:46:20

Well, you might not want to try to tackle the entire field, you know from Getting to end a lot of material.

01:46:29

That's an entire gospel study but You know pick out some of the some of the key synoptic issues gyrus his daughter man,

01:46:40

I've used that one a bunch of times and mainly because Shabir Ali brought it up in the debate at Biola.

01:46:48

We had just covered it in Sunday school, but there are Especially this coming spring going into resurrection season

01:47:00

That's where we are right now Dealing with the Gospels as to those particular and there's some tough issues there, but there are good solid answers and I Know there's a fear on the part of a lot of ministers to overwhelm their people or to Scare their people off But you know what?

01:47:22

We live in a day where these people predominate they are the ones that have the

01:47:27

I mean the the media loves Bart Ehrman They love

01:47:33

John Dominic Crossan. They they love the people that will give you a reason to not believe in Orthodox Christianity And I just don't think we're doing our people any favors when we don't do the hard work of Convincing them that they really need to be paying attention here

01:47:56

Let's knuckle down and do the work and I you know,

01:48:01

I understand you might be in a church where that would absolutely be like lighting a match

01:48:08

In a room that's had a gas leak for the past six hours might be a bad thing.

01:48:14

Okay, I get it. I understand but your goal at least should be to Move your people toward a level of maturity to where they'd be able to handle that kind of discussion.

01:48:26

I really think Something might want to consider might want to think about What you realize it there you start finding them lots of them

01:48:38

There are important differences among our Gospels that cannot be reconciled with one another. You don't have to take my word for this

01:48:47

Simply read Matthew Mark Luke and John next to each other The problem is when we read the

01:48:54

New Testament, we tend to read all of Matthew We go from the beginning to the end. It's about the life and death of Jesus at all Okay, it's gospel life and death of Jesus.

01:49:00

Then you read Mark and it sounds like Matthew, life and death of Jesus. Then you go to Luke It sounds like Matthew and Mark, life and death of Jesus.

01:49:07

Then you go to John and it's a little different. It's basically the life and death of Jesus. And so it all sounds the same because you're reading them from top to bottom.

01:49:14

The way to see that these Gospels are different from each Other is not to read them from top to bottom It's to read them across each other.

01:49:20

Read a story in Matthew and the same story in Mark and the same story in Luke and Compare them to detail

01:49:26

Do it with the resurrection narratives, just read for yourself the resurrection narratives and ask yourself

01:49:33

Can you reconcile these Gospels? Who goes to the tomb? Okay now we have

01:49:41

I remember Three or four years ago one of the things

01:49:47

I did At Covenant of Grace Church in st. Charles, which I will be there again

01:49:55

This will be we skipped a year we missed a year. This will be the 15th year, but it wasn't 15 years in a row.

01:50:01

I was in Ukraine last year and they didn't mind that because Pastor Van goes to Ukraine.

01:50:08

He goes to the Nets. I go to European, but we go to different places, but we both have a heart for the

01:50:13

Ukrainian people and Stay in mind that I wasn't able to be there last year

01:50:18

But we're gonna try to work something out later on But I will be in st. Charles first weekend

01:50:25

December and I'm gonna be doing Doing something I actually haven't done before The whole seminar will be on homosexuality.

01:50:34

I really haven't done that. I've done debates. I've done single things, but the whole weekend No, well when

01:50:41

I say weekend, I doubt I'll be preaching on that on Sunday, but who knows so I've got all sorts of Keynote to develop and it'll be good.

01:50:51

It'll be good. So if you're If you're around conference what we

01:50:56

I've sent the stuff to Micah. So hopefully we'll have a banner ad up here pretty soon and We'll be doing homosexuality there

01:51:08

But about Three years ago There at st.

01:51:14

Charles and then I I think I repeated it so it may have been a little more than that I repeated it at one of the

01:51:22

Street preaching conventions that I went to Jeremiah cry. I think in New York the one New York I did the same presentation where I went through and we've done this before we go through this

01:51:34

This is an urbanism It depends on which gospel. It depends on which gospel you read. It depends on which gospel.

01:51:40

It is a surface level I think it's a highly offensive because he knows he knows

01:51:46

That there are answers to every single one of these alleged discrepancies, he knows it but he never mentions never mentions

01:51:56

I think it's dishonest. It is a mechanism and I'm calling him on it but we've gone through these and we've

01:52:08

Walked through them point by point by point by point. Here's where he says this but here's the reality, you know He he likes to throw

01:52:14

John over against the synoptic. This is the day of the Passover We go through the day of the Passover that did it It's so easy to do this

01:52:22

It is so Easy to do this. This is I Ran into this in debates all the time

01:52:30

Muslims do this all the time. It's so easy and Christians do it in response to Muslims.

01:52:39

I mean, you really don't think that I could very easily put together an entire list of alleged contradictions in the

01:52:47

Quran and just just shoot them all out there and To explain anyone requires looking at context

01:52:56

Background being honest with it and that takes a whole lot more time to answer it than it does to make the accusation and so you just throw a bunch of stuff out here and I've heard him do this over and over and over again.

01:53:10

He doesn't even need his notes at this point because He's done this for years

01:53:15

But it's not meaningful argumentation and he knows it and that that bothers me really bothers me a lot

01:53:30

It depends which gospel in other words some Gospels give more data than others some are very brief and do not give sufficient data to answer the questions others give more information and sufficient answer sufficient information to answer more of the questions and some are in between and Who are you

01:53:51

Bart Ehrman? To judge the motivations of Matthew Mark and Luke, do you know all the situations they were in?

01:53:59

Do you know everyone that they knew do you know who was still alive when they were writing? Might there be a reason why one person writing in one area would write something where he

01:54:09

Protects someone's identity and some are writing someplace else doesn't need to do that. Have you thought about any of those things?

01:54:15

No you just throw the stuff out there and destroy the faith of people and Maybe just hope that they will never

01:54:25

Find out later on that there were actually meaningful answers How do you do that?

01:54:31

I don't get it. I I Want to be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning so Can't I can't argue that way

01:54:40

I can argue that way against all sorts of positions there are lots of Arguments that would make me quote -unquote more popular

01:54:52

But I can't use them that consistency thing again Do they see a man there or two men there or do they see an angel there?

01:55:01

Which gospel you read was the stone already so are those contradictory things are you really seriously saying that Seeing a man

01:55:11

We're seeing an angel. Are you what you think that angels have have wings and so they you know, well a man wouldn't have wings

01:55:20

You you really think that These books being written. This is one of the reasons you have to put him so late

01:55:26

But what if they were being written in the same time period where the eyewitnesses are still alive?

01:55:31

You don't think that What makes these contradictory in other words, do you really think that saying man is

01:55:40

Meant to be differentiated from angel man, not angel Because he's a messenger delivering a supernatural message so he what was he someone from some other city

01:55:54

Yeah, you got it gotta have the halo yeah and then one or two Again Anybody who for a second takes seriously?

01:56:06

the the analysis of differing accounts of any historical event

01:56:14

Knows that some people will emphasize the one person who spoke will not mention other people that were with him

01:56:22

Other people will mention the specific number other will just simply talk about a crowd If there is one and if there were two then there had to be at least one, right?

01:56:33

Again the assumption is these are all contradictions. They don't have to be unless you're functioning on the guilty until proven innocent

01:56:43

Basis, which is generally How Bart Ehrman argues and the people again who then follow him because remember?

01:56:52

Bart Ehrman is one man, but he needs to recognize and I've pointed out to him He wasn't happy about it, but I point out to him there are a lot of people who follow after him and utilize his argumentation and maybe not even as carefully as he makes it but They're there and when he plays with his conclusions when he

01:57:18

Doesn't Act fairly and consistently in his argumentation that only becomes magnified each time

01:57:26

It goes down the road until you end up with The wacko people that my daughter ran into in college who clearly start with him and then go off into Pretty wild and crazy and zany stuff after that.

01:57:44

So we'll stop it there. We've put you through two hours of Rambling and all

01:57:52

I remember his name. I just didn't necessarily give him any airtime rambling discussions on all sorts of things hopefully something along those lines dating of the

01:58:05

Gospels and movie reviews and Everything else was of some assistance to you some

01:58:14

Help to you even when we started Chasing after squirrels and things like that It was just it was a transition.

01:58:22

It was purposeful. We had planned that that was remember He's very much on purpose in the pre in the in the pre -show meeting where we get together.

01:58:30

Yeah Minute by minute, you know, I Want to remind folks?

01:58:37

Let's keep summer in prayer. Oh, yeah, you bet. Well, maybe watching yep, and When will we be doing the divining one again?

01:58:46

I don't know We we might do a program tomorrow It's really up to just two people

01:58:53

I might announcement Something and I might not announce something and he may announce something and then cancel something could be that too

01:59:03

We'll see. We'll see. We just figured we'd sort of front load the week just in case.

01:59:08

All right, so Anyways, thanks for listening the dividing line and we might see you tomorrow

01:59:16

Keep an eye on Facebook Twitter the website wherever that's how you'll find out.