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Responding to questions about the Kathy Griffin saga, Pat Robertson's 700 club, and plurality eldership in the church. Visit wwutt.com for all of our videos!
How should we consider Kathy Griffin's apology related to what she's done? Is the 700 Club a sound ministry? And should prospective pastors be looking for churches with plurality eldership? The answers to these questions when we Understand the Text.
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Now here's our host, Pastor Gabe Hughes.
Thank you, Becky. Hey, I apologize for this being so late today. We've had internet problems all week long and then got to Thursday and it totally conked out on us. So I went down to the cable company.
I prefer to go down there rather than call them up and be on hold for an hour. I explained the issues that we were having. They said we can have a tech out between 8 and 10 tomorrow morning. He was just here, went through our bird's nest of cables, got all of that straightened out.
Everything flowing smooth again. And we're back up and surfing in enough time for me to get this recorded and posted on a Friday when we respond to questions from listeners. You can submit your questions to when we understand the text at gmail .com.
I didn't even bother recording this the day before the way I usually do because I knew I wasn't going to be able to upload it anyway. And it's a good thing I didn't because as it turns out, Todd Freel and I were both talking about the same thing yesterday.
And so after the clip from Wretched Radio was posted on YouTube, there were some folks that were emailing it to me and going, uh, it looks like you and Todd don't agree what's going on with this best scheme in particular.
And I apologize if I butchered your name said, would you be able to respond to this? Does he have a point or how is he wrong? What's the issue that we don't agree on? Well, we were both talking about the Kathy Griffin saga, you know, the whole thing with the Donald Trump head and the apology and all of that.
And I think that I listened to Todd's clip. I think what he said was great. I think that the both of us are just coming at it from two different perspectives. So I'm going to go ahead and play the clip from Todd and then, uh, he, the whole clip's like 11 minutes long.
I'm not going to play the whole thing. I'm just going to do about four minutes here. Todd likes to talk more than I do. As hard as that is to believe anyway, we'll, uh, we'll talk about it here when we get to the end.
This is a wretched radio. It is almost certain that you have seen the rather gruesome picture comedian. I guess you're supposed to be funny to be a comedian, but comedian, you have to be Kathy Griffin.
Well, you know, the standards, who are we to judge whether a comedian is actually funny? Kathy Griffin, who is an unbeliever. She is very vulgar. She is very crude. She is very liberal. She is not somebody that I want my family viewing ever, frankly, but I should expect that.
The world is that way and she is of the world. She makes a living telling jokes and she held up in a picture that was tweeted or whatever the kids do to get the things out there these days. She sent out a picture of her holding the decapitated head of Donald Trump.
Now, just to make sure we all understand, it wasn't his actual head. It was some sort of wax figure, whatever, with blood coming out of it. And she made inappropriate remarks and she was absolutely shellacked for it.
Everybody went bonkers. They were calling for her head that she would get terminated from CNN in response to the outcry. Kathy Griffin produced a 31 second video apologizing and she, in my estimation, did about as fine a job as you can in asking for somebody's forgiveness.
Nevertheless, based on just a little bit of scouring the internet, many evangelicals are just as angry at her before she apologized as they were after she apologized than before she apologized. They do not accept this apology.
And I'm just going, which is the Italian way of saying here now, Kathy Griffin apologizing. You be the judge. Should we Christians say to Kathy, forgiven and forgotten? Hey, everybody, it's me, Kathy Griffin.
I sincerely apologize. I am just now seeing the reaction of these images. I'm a comic. I crossed the line. I moved the line. Then I cross it. I went way too far. The image is too disturbing. I understand how it offends people.
It wasn't funny. I get it. I've made a lot of mistakes in my career. I will continue. I asked your forgiveness, taking down the image, going to ask the photographer to take down the image. And I begged for your forgiveness.
I went too far.
I made a mistake and I was wrong. Question number one, does she need to ask my forgiveness? Do I even need to grant her forgiveness? I don't know that she sinned against me. I get it. She sinned against the nation's president.
I understand that. And I can understand his wife, his children, family members being sinned against. That I get. Have I been sinned against by Kathy Griffin because she was way over the line with supposed humor?
I don't know that that's even my role. But let's just say that it is. She has asked the world, including you and me, for forgiveness. Do we grant it?
So Todd is presenting here a hypothetical. If Kathy is truly repentant for her sin and if it is even our place to forgive her of those sins, should we? Absolutely, we should. And I'm not going to say otherwise.
Todd even uses that as an opportunity to share the gospel. He opens and closes the segment the same way that we can share the gospel with Kathy. Kathy, I forgive you. Oh, and let me introduce you to the God who has forgiven me of all my iniquities.
That is a great opportunity to be able to share the gospel. But I was coming at this from a different perspective in a different context, and it was related to what we were reading yesterday in first Kings chapter eight, where at the dedication of the temple, Solomon is raising up prayers to God and he is preemptively asking for forgiveness for sins that Israel has not even committed yet because he knows that mankind is wicked and that they will commit such sins.
First Kings chapter eight, verse forty six, if they sin against you, for there is no one who does not sin and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy so that they are carried away captive to the land of their enemy far off or near.
Yet, if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors, saying we have sinned and we have acted perversely and wickedly, if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies who carried them captive and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city which you have chosen and the house that I have built for your name, then here in heaven, your dwelling place, their prayer and their plea and maintain their cause and forgive your people who have sinned against you and all their transgressions that they have committed against you and grant them compassion in the sight of those who carried them captive that they may have compassion on them, for they are your people and your heritage, which you brought out of Egypt from the midst of the iron furnace.
Let your eyes be open to the plea of your servant and to the plea of your people. Israel giving ear to them whenever they call on you. That's just a section of First Kings chapter eight, but it's it's an example of the genuineness of our repentance.
We know that we cannot hide sins from God. Psalm sixty nine five. Oh God, you know my folly. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from you. So we can't just apologize to God with just this. I'm sorry kind of attitude.
OK, we we have to be genuine knowing that God searches the heart and knows the mind just as Solomon talked about here so that our apology, our repentance would come with all our mind and with all our heart.
So Solomon also asking for a genuine spirit of repentance. And may God hear the the cry of their heart and that he would hear from heaven and he would forgive their sin. First John one nine. If we are faithful to ask forgiveness for our sins, God is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
So I use this as an example of genuine repentance and contrasted that with Kathy Griffin's apology and saying here is a lesson on how not to apologize. I know Todd hears the apology a little bit different than I do.
And based on what he hears, what he has taught is great and should be considered. But based on what I hear, I'm a little bit skeptical. And and even when I was listening to that apology again, as Todd was playing it, there's a certain cadence that you hear where she's going, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.
I'm not really hearing a heartfelt compassion. But furthermore, here's the biggest problem that I have with the apology. Why is she apologizing to me? And Todd really asks the same question, but he presents his hypothetical.
And this is mine. This is my opinion that I do not hear in her apology a genuine sense of remorse or even an understanding of what it is that she has done wrong. So she knows that her image of offended the American people.
Fine. But does she understand what she has done to Donald Trump and realizing you just don't treat another human being that way with such disdain and contempt that you would model their head as having been cut off and covered in blood as though you are an Islamic terrorist beheading those that you don't agree with?
So she doesn't agree with his policies and the way that he treats women. I don't either. But that doesn't mean you can then turn around and treat that person which with such contempt that you would depict them as being less than human.
And that's what Kathy Griffin has done. While Todd sees this as an opportunity to grant forgiveness and share the gospel. And I think that's right and good. I see it as an opportunity to hold a person to their words, to see that they are truly repentant.
And she needs to be. I've had it happen to me before where in the church, somebody comes up to me and says, hey, I've done wrong, I've sinned and I've done this and I've articulated back to them. OK, do you understand that when you did this, this is what this this is what happened to these other people that you that you affected?
And sometimes they'll say, yes, I understand that I've done wrong. And other times they'll start arguing with me. Well, no, it wasn't about that. It was about this. And I've had to say, well, then I don't think you truly understand what it is that you have done.
So I need you to go back and read the scriptures, give them some passages to look at. I need you to pray and ask God to show this to you. So that you can repent in the right way and that we can see healing done in our body, in our congregation.
We have it said in Psalm 141, let a righteous man strike me. It is a kindness. Let him rebuke me. It is oil for my head and let my head not refuse it. So I don't think it is inappropriate for us to ask, though, very kindly and very gently, if Kathy Griffin understands what it is that she has done wrong and if her apology is truly genuine.
We have it said to us in Second Timothy, Chapter two, that we would correct our opponents with gentleness and God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. And they may escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.
So I appreciate those of you who sent me that video clip, and I hope that that response has offered clarity. I love Todd. I think what he presented was great. And I hope that I'm able to offer some clarification on the way that I was approaching that issue as well.
All right. This next question comes from Jacob in Cleveland. Nope, not Cleveland, Ohio. Cleveland, Tennessee. He says, Dear sir, your when we understand the text YouTube channel has been a blessing over the last four years.
Well, I appreciate that, Jacob. I am a Southern Baptist who now identifies himself with the reformed movement. What should one think about Reverend Marion Robertson or, as you would know him, Pat Robertson?
He says, I watched the 700 Club mainly online for news and political commentary. They promote largely health, wealth and success. And if any person says the sinner's prayer, then they are saved. I hear the majority of truth preachers condemn the Osteens, Joyce Meyer, et cetera, yet rarely Robertson.
Well, Robertson is from that same Pentecostal camp as the Osteens, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn. As a matter of fact, Robertson has as many failed prophecies, if not more than Benny Hinn has. It's just that he doesn't have the recognition of Benny because Benny does the large gatherings.
But Robertson resolves himself to his television program. And that's pretty much the extent of his ministry. Once a year, whoever is the host or the commentator, usually a woman, will sit with Pat Robertson and say, hey, so you went up on the mountain this year to pray because that's what Pat Robertson does every year.
He goes up on a mountain to pray and then he comes down to tell us what God told him while he was up on the mountain. And some of the stuff is totally innocent. Like God told me that we need to love one another.
God reminded me that he is light and we need to walk in the light as he is in the light. All of that is very well and good. But then there are other times where he says, God showed me that this is going to happen to the nation or whatever.
And whenever Robertson does that and he gets specific about his prophecies, they almost always fail. So some of those prophecies tend to be pretty vague, which is common among these modern day prophets, where they will say, well, God has told me he's going to bless the nation this year.
All right. How did he do that? You know, but then there are other things that get real specific and they get real wrong. So in 2007, Robertson claimed a massive terrorist attack would kill millions of people.
That, of course, didn't happen. He also said that we'd pull all of our troops out of Iraq by the end of 2007. That didn't happen in 2006. He said that hurricanes would ravage the East Coast. And there was not one major hurricane that touched the East Coast of the United States all year.
The Bible says, do not listen to false prophets who make claims that do not come to pass. Deuteronomy 18, 22. And I hope that that is some helpful information to you. I don't think that we should be listening to Pat Roberts and definitely do not give him any of your money.
Sometimes the articles and things like that that they will feature on the 700 Club are pretty good. There was even an article that I pulled up recently on their website that was helpful for me and some research that I was doing.
So there are some occasional good things that will come out of that particular ministry. But Pat Robertson in general, when it comes to his prophecies and some of the things that he says, he should not be on the air and he should be pulled off of that program, not just because of his failed prophecies, but also because of some of the crazy political claims that he has made in the past, talking about assassinating other dictators and stuff like that.
I just don't think the guy is a he's a good teacher to be listening to, whether it comes to the things that he says about the Bible or the things that he's talking about related to political commentary.
All right. Last question here comes from Nathan in Bridge City, Texas. He says, hey, Pastor Gabe, I have been so immensely blessed by your podcast ministry. I came across your podcast through a what video a friend had shared on Facebook.
I've not listened to a current episode yet because I've I want to get caught up from the beginning. Well, bless your heart. Thank you so much, Nathan. I have been on staff as a youth and music minister for a little over seven years and am so ashamed of how naive I have been regarding my selection of music.
I've always offered a blended song service because of my strong appreciation for the hymns. But your exposure of Bethel Church has caused me to reexamine myself and motivation for the music that is selected each Sunday.
I wanted to thank you for your faithfulness and pointing out obvious heretics for those of us who have had our heads in the sand. Well, you know, even for those who may not be doing Hillsong or Bethel music or Jesus culture, any of those guys, I think it's a good practice for any worship leader in a church to ask why he's choosing those songs.
Why are you using the songs that you are singing in a worship service? How do they relate to what is said in the scriptures? Because the hymns are good, but there are even some bad hymns out there. And there are also some really good current hymns and praise songs that we can be singing in our church.
So I think it just comes down to having a good knowledge of the scriptures, being grounded in the word of God. It is said in Colossians 316, let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
So in the same verse, let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. So even the worship songs that we sing in church should be as grounded in the scriptures as the sermons that are preached.
But anyway, that's that's not the issue that Nathan wrote in about. He says, my question is actually not about music, but something of a more personal note. So I doubt it will make the cut, but I was interested in your opinion.
I feel called to pastoral ministry and have had a few churches ask for my resume recently. Would it be completely wrong of me to only pursue elder led churches? I'm just wondering if this is typically a deal breaker for potential pastors.
I appreciate everything you are doing for the sake of the gospel, and I will continue to be a faithful listener. Thanks so much, Nathan. And thank you, Nathan. I appreciate that very much. I'll tell you that I am a former worship leader at my church.
Actually, I still lead worship. I still sing as well as preach. There are some others that will divvy up those responsibilities to occasionally, but I still like to sing in addition to preaching. And when I first came to First Southern Baptist Church of Junction City, I was hired on as the worship leader.
I was ordained as a pastor. I was an associate pastor, but my emphasis was leading the music ministry at the church. And so after the senior pastor who hired me left, then I applied for that position and was was given that spot by the congregation who voted me in.
So I'm formerly a worship leader who then moved into the pastor position. And when I became pastor, our church was not elder led. Sixty years, the church had been in the community and did not have a plurality eldership.
So right after I was installed as the senior pastor, it was less than two weeks after they voted me in as pastor. I presented before the congregation. We had a meeting. It was like 50 or 60 people attended the meeting, I think.
And I presented to them, I think that we need to pursue plurality eldership. And I presented to them a an article from Jared C. Wilson, who went through this process in his church and his church had been around for over 100 years.
So they have been around for even longer. It took about two or three years and they became a plurality eldership over that congregation. And the same was true for us. We went through studying 1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus, particularly spending time in 1st Timothy 3 and Titus chapter 1, talking about eldership.
And when we first had that meeting, we were split in half. About half of the people were for it and half of the people were against it. But by the time we wrote out our new constitution and voted on it, it was unanimous acceptance for that new constitution for plurality eldership.
And that was a beautiful thing in our church to see all of that play out the way that it did. We grew closer together as a congregation. We matured over the course of that process. So I became the pastor of a church that did not have that.
And yet we brought that into the church. So that's a possibility. And if you're applying for churches that don't have plurality eldership, I would just say look for signs that they might be open to to doing that, to shifting their leadership into something that is in accordance with a biblical model.
If you're looking at a church that wants to be submissive to the word of God and even in the way that they conduct leadership and discipline and all those things, according to God's word, then you're looking at a church that would be open at wanting to shift its leadership from probably membership led or or pastor deacon model to having plurality eldership.
That's something for you to consider. But if it's not something that you want to go through, if that just seems like too much work or too much drama, maybe you don't think that you have the experience to lead a church in something like that, then maybe what you want to be looking for as you're applying for churches is something that is already has a plurality eldership in place.
I'll tell you, though, Nathan, that they are few and far between. Just in your search, be sure that you are not looking for the perfect church because that doesn't exist. Churches are full of sinners.
And as pastors, it is a labor of love for the members of our congregation that that we would go through the difficulties that a church has to go through for their benefit to build them up in the faith, to present them mature before Christ.
It's hard work, but there are great kingdom benefits. I love the quote from George Whitefield when he said, Lord, I am weary in thy work, but not weary of it. So, Nathan, be grounded in the word of God, be filled up with prayer, have a great relationship with your wife to a very strong marriage before you go into that process of looking for a church that you can be the pastor of if God is calling you into that.
Thank you so much for listening today. If you have any questions or comments you would like to submit to the ministry, our email address is when we understand the text at Gmail dot com. God bless. We'll be back again next week as we continue our study of First John on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
First Kings on Thursday and then another Q &A next week.
This is when we understand the text with Pastor Gabe Hughes. There are lots of great Bible teaching programs on the Web and we thank you for selecting ours. But this is no replacement for regular fellowship with a church family.
Find a good gospel teaching Christ centered church to worship with this weekend and join us again Monday for more Bible study when we understand the text.