Old Creation & New Creation

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My name is Chris Kiesler. Today with me are Michael Durham, David Gasson, and we have a couple of questions We'd like to address. Let's start with this one. Isaiah 65 20 is a common verse used by dispensational Apologists to claim that the idea of a millennial kingdom is not just taught.

In Revelation 20 this verse says that people will have long lives But will still die which fits with their idea of a millennial Jewish kingdom. What is your interpretation of this verse?

Isaiah 65 and the New Creation as Covenant Language

Well, I think it's a good question. I think it's a question that comes from a desire to not only read the Bible but believe the Bible and to interpret it faithfully and.

It.

Entails a crafting of our hope. What do we anticipate? What are we looking forward to? What is it that we believe that God will do and so? We want to be encouraged by the promises of God. So when we go to Isaiah chapter 65 and we open it up we read in verse 20 some Descriptors that are very good news.

Indeed. No more shall an infant From there live but a few days nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days. For the child shall die 100 years old. But the sinner being 100 years old shall be accursed and then there's more description that follows.

I'm gonna read this more in full. But when you read a passage like that, don't we want to know more? Mm-hmm. Yeah, we want to know more about this. This is this puts images into our minds that should warm our hearts should enrich our Hopes so if we back up a little bit to verse 17 We read this for behold.

I create new heavens and a new earth. God is the Creator and he says I create new heavens and a new earth and the former shall not be remembered or Come to mind. Okay, so we think of heaven and we think of earth new ones that will make the old Forgettable.

Okay. Well verse 18 says but be glad I'm not be a little consternation. Well, you know, I like my earth. You know what's wrong with it verse 18 says but be glad. Be glad do not be Full of consternation do not be worried and afraid don't be full of anxiety at this great change, right?

But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create. Behold, I create Jerusalem, so do you hear what God is saying there through Isaiah first? He says I create new heavens and a new earth now, don't let that upset you.

Rejoice in what I'm creating. He says I create Jerusalem. So Hebrew parallelism. One line explains another when God says I create a new heaven and a new earth. He says I create Jerusalem. He's explaining he's layering in the metaphors something that we see in Revelation 21 Wherein God declares new heaven and a new earth and then he says come look at the city the Bride of Christ.

Right, which is Jerusalem heavily Jerusalem. So we can tell this is familiar territory if we've been reading Revelation now. He says for behold I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing and her people a joy and that goes well since Isaiah has been instructing by word of the Lord be glad and rejoice Forever in what I create it's a city full of rejoicing and you need to rejoice too and God says verse 19 I rejoice.

I will rejoice in Jerusalem and joy in my people. So you see how he identifies the city with the people right not with the architecture. Not with a temple or walls or banners, but what does he mean in my people?

I will rejoice in Jerusalem and joy in my people. That's the parallelism. He's focusing on the people of this city. The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her nor the voice of crying. Then we come to verse 20.

No more shall an infant from there live but a few days nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days for the child Shall die 100 years old and the sinner being 100 years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and Inhabit them.

They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit. They shall not plant and another eat for as the days of a tree. So shall be the days of my people in my elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labor in vain nor bring forth children for trouble. For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord and their offspring. With them it shall come to pass that before they call I will answer and while they are still speaking I will hear the wolf and the lamb shall feed together.

The lion shall eat straw like the ox and dust shall be the serpents food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain says the Lord. So we begin by hearing about a new heavens and a new earth.

We hear the parallel that this is Jerusalem. God focuses in on the people there in Jerusalem that they are at peace that they are delivered from. Essentially the curse that they're not under curse, but they are under blessing and there is all manner of Scenes of Shalom all throughout this city and then God wraps it up by talking about this is my holy mountain.

So layering in those things I think is important new heaven and new earth. I create Jerusalem. This is my holy mountain. These are metaphors that the New Testament takes up to speak about The New Covenant to talk about those who are in Christ.

And so one instinct that we need to have in reading this passage is hey I wonder how Jesus understood this passage. I wonder how his Apostles read this passage and how they would interpret it and begin to look for cross-references.

Probably literally. Probably read it literally.

According to the literature. Yeah, right.

That's what it yeah, you have to define the term literally I mean with you know, you're reading it according to the author's intent. So the author is writing in a well understood Hebrew form a.

Parallel ism. He's got parallelism going in terms of its structure. You have rich Metaphors being laid one on top of the other and in a kind of an apocalyptic type of Material, how are we to read this?

You know, these are very rich metaphors that are meant. These are images of pictures worth a thousand words. Well metaphors in the Bible are worth a thousand meditations. What what is going on here? Look at the beautiful things that are being described in this passage.

However, this is not the first time That Isaiah has been writing about new heavens new earth and creating Jerusalem and talking about his holy mountain. These are think we're in Isaiah 65. We're about done with the book and there are a lot of instances of Isaiah talking about these very themes Earlier in the book and we really need to know what those passages say Before we know what this passage says because we want to read them in context.

So.

Isaiah moved along by the Holy Spirit has labored to develop these themes and now we're at a point kind of like a doxology and The themes are bright. They're glowing. They're they're converging together in this chapter and if We're not careful We're gonna miss the beauty of the passage If we don't know understand how these metaphors have been developed throughout the book of Isaiah already.

Yeah, and even within this one chapter I mean we're jumping in at 17 where he's talking about a specific thing.

Yes.

But the first this is in contrast to the first half of the chapter which is about God's judgment on a Specific people is what it looks like. And then he's like be glad because I'm doing a new creation and he specifically missing Jerusalem so even within the one chapter and so yeah.

Like you're saying yeah going back and picking up all of that context would would be I mean you see that chapter after chapter.

Especially in Isaiah. I mean one of the famous ones is Isaiah 61 where you know, Jesus says, you know The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because the Lord is anointed me bring good news to the poor so me to bind at the broken heart proclaim liberty to the captives and he's always proclaiming the favorable year of the Lord and then that same chapter starts talking more about judgment and Then it goes back to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes oil of gladness instead of mourning and then you shall eat The wealth of those nations and then it goes into a little bit more more of Zion's coming Salvation because God is judging his enemies and then it's their salvation is wrapped up in the Protection and judgment of their their enemies that is coming and their salvation is a part of that.

It's all kind of all juxtaposed and it looks like as you had just said the earlier chapters talking about that Judgment and vengeance and then this incredible blessing on God's people. This is not a new theme.

This isn't the first time that Isaiah talks about this. That's correct.

And you know, it's kind of a funny thing to ask. But when you when you're reading there in Isaiah 65 and he says I create a new heavens and a new earth. And he says I'm creating Jerusalem, you know, one of my questions is where'd the old ones go?

You know what? God you are you already created Jerusalem. You're doing it again. You know, I'm Genesis 1 1. God in the beginning. God created the heavens and the earth. You're doing it again. Well, what was wrong with the old?

Well when you back up in Isaiah, so here's a good example in Isaiah Chapter 51. God, of course is dealing with these the realities through Isaiah. Look, the people of Israel aren't have not been faithful to the Covenant.

They've been sinning and breaking Covenant. God's curses are coming upon them and and the future for Jerusalem is not bright. Destruction and judgment are on their way and that's not very happy to hear but there is comfort.

Comfort. Oh comfort my people and God is is showing kindness and comfort to his people in the hopes of the Messiah. But when we get to Isaiah 51 and we read verse 6. We read lift up your eyes to the heavens and look on the earth beneath.

Okay, here we go heavens and the earth. All right. Let's uh, look at this together for the heavens will vanish away like smoke. Oh, and the the earth will grow old like a garment. That's not good and those who dwell in it will die in like manner.

This sounds bad. But my salvation will be forever and my righteousness will not be abolished. So the heavens and the earth are going to Vanish away and grow old. Goodbye. Judgments on the way death is on the way.

Well, we've been hearing a lot about that in Isaiah. I mean if you just read all of Isaiah can't do it tonight in this podcast, but you hear these themes. This is the judgment of God. Well, what are we going to do now without the heavens and the earth?

What are we going to do? Well, Isaiah Chapter 51 doesn't leave us hanging too long and we read in verse 16 Speaking to his servant. I've put my words in your mouth. I have covered you with the shadow of my hand that I may plant the heavens.

Lay the foundations of the earth and say to Zion you are my people. Oh. So he does away with the old heavens in the old earth in order to create the new heavens in the new earth. And when he says plant that has the idea of something that starts off small.

But it's going to grow really big when you lay the foundation of something. That's where you start your structure and then you build upon it and how is he going to do that by putting his words in the mouth of his servant and his Servant is going to bring about this new heaven and new earth this new creation and God is going to say to Zion You are my people everybody who is in Zion that corresponds rather well with what we read in Isaiah 65.

How about a new heaven and a new earth and I create Jerusalem with a people of rejoicing and all y 'all in my holy? Mountain Zion. Okay. So these themes are something and this is one example Isaiah 51 there are many other examples even as hardback as Isaiah chapter 2 about how God is Speaking about his plan to do a new thing.

And he uses a lot of different metaphors to describe that new thing. And one of those metaphors is a heaven and earth. Now when he says I'm gonna make a new heaven and new earth and I'm gonna do it through His word in the mouth of his servant and this new heaven and new earth is basically a new city.

It's Mount Zion and a new people and we read those themes in the New Testament. What do we come up with? Oh, it's the new covenant. It's a new order. It's a new way of doing things and heaven and earth make a wonderful metaphor for a new structure.

All right, so heaven and earth you have your stars at night and landmarks during the day, you know exactly where you are. By the heavens and the earth there is the structure of the world. This is the world in which you live, right?

It defines everything, you know. Where do heaven and earth meet the horizon? It's a wonderful metaphor to describe. This is the order that God has made. This is the order that God has put into place. And so when we read when things get really disorderly.

When there's judgment of God upon a nation upon a system any kind of system what happens to the heavens?

They're shaking all yeah shaking. Stars fall. Lose their light, right?

You know when when Edom goes down there goes the moon there goes the Sun there goes the stars. It's power outage. Right power down. And what happens when God comes in judgment what happens to the earth?

Well, the mountains melt like wax and flee. Yeah, and the islands, you know hitch up their skirts and run away now. How do we read that according to the literature? Right when God came in judgment. Did he melt all the mountains like wax or do we still have mountains today when God came in judgment?

Did all the islands in the Mediterranean hitch up their skirts and run away? No, but but what our mountains and what our islands and what our stars they are. Landmarks guideposts. Yeah guideposts navigation.

Hey, I know where I'm at. There's nothing so disorienting then when the entire Sociopolitical System just completely is erased and something else comes in to take its place. So these are good metaphors to describe.

Hey.

God's gonna do a whole new thing. The old heavens in the old earth the in other words the old Covenant is going to pass away and as a whole new thing rolling into town. It's similar, but it's going to be better and greater.

So that's what Isaiah is Talking about here and how do we know that? Well, we don't just rely on Isaiah 65 verse 20 and that's all we look at and we don't even just rely on the second half of Isaiah 65.

We read that passage in its broader context and we discover. Oh, he's using metaphorical language to get at spiritual realities. And then not only do we have that light, but we actually have the other prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

And Daniel who will say similar things. I was just looking at Joel just Joel uses exact same You know language and many people think he's actually quoting Isaiah exactly this kind of physical blessing and judgment.

It goes back and forth and uses a lot of the same decreation language and then we get to the New Testament and.

We see Jesus and the Apostles take up passages out of Isaiah like Isaiah 65 and then how do they describe it? We let the light of Christ be our guide understanding what this passage is about and Instead of me fixating on a lion Laying down with a lamb laying down with a lamb eating straw like the ox like, you know lion eating Straw in his mouth and so on and so forth.

Is that the point is the point of the passage? About how lions.

Become.

Herbivores or is there something richer going on and knowing Isaiah? I'd say there's something richer going on, right? There's something deeper going on. There's something really really interesting going on.

Given all of the promises of God in the context of the history of Israel now this I think can make some folks Nervous, right? Sure, and I understand why because hey, don't you want to take Bible seriously?

Yeah.

Yeah, is the accusation you're spiritualizing the text. You're spiritualizing text or I want to take it literally. It says these people are gonna have Long lives and then they're going to die. Therefore my understanding of a Millennial kingdom where this you know, you have really good I'd say if you got a really good government really good health care people can have really good long lives.

That's the implication. But what you're saying is is focusing on that verse in an attempt to be literal and take the Bible seriously. You're actually not doing so. You are taking it out of context and applying it in a way.

The author didn't intend. Yes. So for example, I think what we can all agree on is that we want to interpret the Bible Biblically, yes, I would I would say this that because God is a good communicator He's the best perfect that whatever he has given to us by his Holy Spirit Who bore holy men along and every word that they wrote was? Superintended with the truth of God just as he would have it and then we read this That the plain meaning of the text is the biblical meaning of the text, but just because I think it's plain to me This is just about eating habits of lions Doesn't mean that is the plain meaning of the text the plain meaning of the text is the one that God intended us for us To understand and if I'm missing it, it's my fault and I've got to grow and I've got to learn now let's do something interesting with this passage, okay, if indeed new new heaven and new earth and Creating Jerusalem all anew if this really is about the new covenant Then this would be a passage that would be in contrast with the Old Covenant.

Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay, so when we begin reading about weeping crying No more here is the good of infants. Here's what's gonna happen with your house Vineyards your eating habits when you read all of that and then you go read the curses of the covenant in Deuteronomy This is an absolute reversal line for line.

Reversal of the curses that came with.

Violating the Old Covenant and these were all the curses that they were currently living under in Isaiah's day for their unfaithfulness. But this is showing an incomplete reversal of the curse and not just the curses that we read about in the Sinaitic Covenant, but we begin to hear about the reversal of the curse that fell because of Adam himself.

Mm-hmm, right. The wolf and the lamb the lion and the sheep even all of that is getting turned back so all of this is just being utterly reversed. All of the curses and all of the problems of sin that we see the folks Struggling with all throughout the covenants that God made with man.

The whole thing just gets a roll right back in total reversal and apparently someone's gonna come bear the curse and there's.

Blessings now in the new creation that God brings. Yeah, I think Isaiah addressed that one as well. Who it is that bears that curse.

Yes, so that's that's how I would read Isaiah 65 with all of its rich imagery, but it's not the way that I would read Genesis 1 and 2.

The Historical Reading of Genesis and the Question of Authority

Yeah, and then that brings us to another question. So we have the issue of kind of hermeneutics how we are looking at a text literally meaning according to the text. So Isaiah here is using a lot of metaphors and images to paint a picture.

What about Genesis? So we had a question come in. It says I'm struggling with a massive amount of anxiety over the fact that my leaders in my church reject a literal Historical view of Genesis so there's that word literal in favor of a secular view.

Any insight would be welcome. It is it. Extreme to wonder whether it's time to leave. They seem to sold on so many other issues. So I don't know what to think about it. Thanks. You think they're sold or solid solid?

I think solid maybe misread that. Yeah, yeah solid on other issues. Yes, we're gonna make sure yeah solid on other issues. But this question about a literal historical interpretation of Genesis. Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question.

I think that the the anxiety side of it is gonna be associated with uncertainty as to the Importance of this particular issue. How important is it? So when we read Genesis chapters 1 2 and you know much of what follows.

Many people will look at this and say, you know, look at the structure look at the repetition. Look at the beauty of the passage. Look how rich it is. Look at how many themes are brought together in such a short time in a a wonderful portion of Scripture.

Look how Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are just doing different things. And we have these fanciful tales about a serpent talking and a worldwide global flood and let's just be Honest, you know, we know. You know that our universe is billions of years old.

Obviously, this is this is a rich Wonderful metaphor given to us from God, but it's just it's not Dealing with history, right? It's answering mystery, but it's not it's not revealing history. Okay, and there's a whole bunch of other reasons given for that so it depends on your on your approach into this particular subject if you're taking the side of Our current version of science and you'll have to let me know which one that is because it just keeps changing.

It's hard to keep up the amount of times that they have to erase their blackboards that they thought they would stand forever. Settled science. Yeah settled science just keeps on getting erased over and over and over again.

So, you know which version of science are you into right now? And it's it's interesting because some people are holding on to what they believe are facts from 20 years ago and.

The Academy has moved way past it. Yeah, there were things in our textbook that were Years old that I know for a fact that the people that believe in evolution do not hold to they'll say no.

That's that's all but that's still everything's very very fluted on the move and uncertain.

Yeah.

But even that if you say well it can't possibly mean that because we're so certain about X Y Z. You'll have to let me know by what standard you are Evaluating those truth claims because you are subjecting the Bible to that authority.

Okay.

Now some people will come at this and say it's not to be received as history because It's poetry. The only problem with that is that when you read Hebrew poetry the way that it's constructed the components of Hebrew poetry They're not here in Genesis 1 and 2 and following.

It's just not there so we have to pay attention to How it's written and how it's written is like for Samuel it is written as if it's to be received as history Here's what's happening here at the beginning and then there was another day and by the way This day was a morning and evening as if we would be in a situation where we'd say it's a you know.

A day could be a metaphorical like the day of the Lord or you know, it's a day like a thousand years. But no, it's evening and morning. That's the day evening and morning. That's the day. How do we know evening from morning?

It's dark and light and all this is explained for us in the text that we're supposed to be taking this as an actual Historical event a series of historical events. Is it? Beautiful. Yes, is it? Exquisitely structured.

Yes. Is it filled with rich language? Yes. Does it take aim against the idolatry of the Israelites that they brought with them up out of Egypt? Yes, it does all of that and it's still sacred history just like other historical passages like David and Goliath is doing more Than simply relating a tale.

It's doing a lot of things all at once. This is the richness of Scripture. So when we read about how God made the Sun and how he made the moon how he made the stars and how he made Adam and Eve in his Own image and what he did with the garden and so on and so forth.

We're not reading apocalyptic metaphors. We're reading about How the base ingredients from which all the metaphors to be made were made? Hmm, why is heaven and earth a good metaphor because of how God actually made the heaven and earth?

Why is it that a lion is different from a lamb? Why is it that it's not good for the man to be alone? What is it about the Sun moon and stars that make them good metaphors to be governing authorities?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, they govern them evening in the in the morning. It's all of the ingredients.

Even why the need for a new heaven and a new earth there in the fall?

Yeah, they're in chapter 3. So what we're reading about is how God made everything and all of the ingredients. Maybe not all of them, but you know here it are so many of the ingredients for the metaphors yet to come.

But this is how God made them and he made them in a certain way to bring glory to his name. So that's why this should not be read as some sort of the text is not calling for us to interpret this symbolically.

You'll notice that prior to Genesis 1 1 we don't have we don't have anything. Right. Where's the context? I'm not reading about heaven and earth in Genesis 1 1. Having you know chapters upon chapters upon chapters of developing of a theme where and I would know that this is a rich Metaphor this is heaven and earth God created in the beginning, but you have you have some similarities here.

So you you said the Genesis 1 and 2 against the idolatry that the Israelites were bringing, you know with them out of Egypt. You know, you are reading Genesis 1 and 2 in context. You're saying that this it starts here.

There's nothing before it. But there's a reason why Moses has this written down. I mean Genesis 1 through 11. It is there's a lot of history and it's pretty compact. But it leads up to you know, Abraham Genesis 12.

So these are what? Israel needs to know about who God is. Who is this pillar that's leading them into the promised land and that it just starts with him. Okay, we don't take Genesis 1 1 completely out of context, but it is the beginning and those Metaphors or stories or anything else the narratives that flow really flow from that point of origin.

When you were in Isaiah 65 he said this is part of a pattern and You weren't trying to take it out of context trying to put it into context. So granted that we're dealing with two different genres of literature separated by a lot of time and different human authors.

But you still seem to be applying the same principles. So, what would you say charge wise if someone charges you with. Well, you're just spiritualizing 65, but you're taking Genesis 1 literally that's super critical.

How would you respond to that because it looks like you're you're kind of trying to do the same thing put them put them both In context, but you know Genesis 1 does have a starting point. I mean it is a starting point.

Well, I would commend the person bringing that criticism for their desire to have a consistent hermeneutics. That's 100 what we should be doing and it would seem as if why could you read one passage at full of spiritual metaphors?

But the other passage this is actual history. Well in some sense the definition of terms is proceeding from a Presupposition that needs to be examined now that presupposition is back with a desire to be consistent but the answer to consist of being consistent in our reading of the Bible is not a Commitment to literalism.

Okay literalism is in Some folks definition means that whatever you're reading you need to think of it in real concrete terms in You know space and time this is actually how it happens or how it will happen.

It's a real lion eating real straw. And if you don't read it that way then you're not being faithful to the Bible. Well, actually I if I don't read it that way I'm not being faithful to the literalists way of reading the Bible nor their presuppositions.

They have not yet voiced right so I would agree with a desire to. You know, hey Genesis 1 Genesis 2 Genesis 3 all the way Genesis all the way through Genesis 11 every this really happened this was real genuine history and There really was King David right and there really were miracles.

The Sun really did stop in the sky. These are real genuine historical things that happened. How do I know that? Because Jesus told me right when I'm reading in the New Testament and Jesus tells me from the beginning.

Here's how it went down. Right and it's by faith that we know that God created these things out of nothing. The way that the scripture interprets the scripture. I know that this is genuine historical Reality because the light shown by Jesus Christ tells me that now what about?

What he and his Apostles Do with Isaiah 65. Right, they don't come at that in the exact same way there are there is such a thing as heaven and earth if there wasn't a real thing as a heaven and earth that God created a Structured ordered universe that God created then how can we even have the metaphor of heavens and earth?

We don't even have the metaphor because we don't have the concrete reality now that we have a concrete reality. Then all sorts of metaphors are being used if we just pay attention to the way that Jesus teaches if we look at the way That the Apostles teach and then we look at the way that the prophets preach.

We keep running into word picture after word picture after word picture. That doesn't mean that they're not being biblical. They're being very very biblical by using all of these metaphors to describe who God is and what he is up to.

So it's not a cop-out to say well if there's something I see in the Bible that I don't like that isn't fit with what? I believe I just say oh, this is just a spiritual meaning that can be done and people have done that and.

So the critique is well worth considering but the answer for consistency, which I would agree with you need to have a consistent hermeneutics is that Christ is the light of the world and so he's a lot of the word and as the the Word of God who became flesh and as the image of the invisible God as The light of the world and as truth and as truth is in Jesus.

I want to know what he thinks about it first and foremost. I'm to have the mind of Christ in this matter now he didn't write a commentary on every single passage and in the Old Testament the law the the prophets and the writings, right?

He didn't tell us exactly every single detail about Ezekiel. Which would have been nice and helpful if he would have but he didn't but what he did was he said all kinds of things to the scholars of his day.

About how they were reading the scriptures and he kept telling them you're missing the point. It is these that testify of me. Mm-hmm. They really they really thought That what the Old Testament was on and on and on about was a great big wonderful golden temple which is why they would take every single last mite from a widow to make it that golden beautiful temple and Jesus came and said destroy this temple and now in three days, I'll raise it up.

Yeah, well, and I think that is a good kind of testing point for if you're over spiritualizing the text well Jesus and the Apostles apply it to him. It's these that testify of him. We have some modern-day people that are starting to come to scripture and say it's it's the best book ever written but it's all in psychological terms and we interpret it through the arch types of Psychology their hermeneutic is not Christ.

They don't understand those metaphors in those texts to be speaking about Christ Whereas Christ does. And so if you're talking to someone and they're trying to be faithful To Jesus was an actual person and we're gonna interpret it as best we can Without over spiritualizing it to where it doesn't mean anything.

I think that would be a good spot to start.

Well, I think there's a lot of agreement. I think there's a lot of agreement and Unity around this desire to to read the scriptures faithfully consistently and to not be whimsical According to patterns and fashions and desires and just change up our interpretation of the Bible all the time.

We are not to be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. So and you're talking about Bible believing Christians who believe the word are submitted to Christ. Christ is King and they want to Obey him.

They trust him and they trust the scriptures. These are like common starting points among Bible believing Christians. Yes, we all have the same desire and we want to be not just submissive to what God has said.

But acknowledging that God has the authority to say it we submit to who is King and his word is true. And if we all can kind of come at it from that perspective Then I think we hate we we already have we already have a great starting point.

Yeah.

Going back to the question There was the question about is it extreme to wonder whether it's time to leave and we seem to be talking about there are room for Disagreements as long as the person is is not coming at it skeptically.