May 23, 2018 Show with Dr. Richard Barcellos on “Getting the Garden Right: Adam’s Work & God’s Rest in Light of Christ” PLUS Andrew J. Lindsey on “The Life, Teaching & Legacy of Martin Luther”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 23rd

day of May 2018.

I'm delighted to have back as a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Richard C. Barcelos.

He will be on for the first hour.

He is the author of five books, editor and co -author of three others.

He's a contributor to various journals and magazines including Table Talk, the magazine of Ligonier

Ministries founded by the late Dr. R .C. Sproul, and he's also an associate professor of biblical

studies at IRBS Theological Seminary and a pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of

Palmdale, California.

Today we are going to be addressing a very controversial issue, an issue that divides

Baptists that both claim to be believers and proclaimers and defenders

of the doctrines of sovereign grace, aka Calvinism.

The book we are addressing is Getting the Garden Right, Adam's Work and God's Rest

in Light of Christ, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio, Dr. Richard Barcelos.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Great, and let me right off the bat give our email address for those of our listeners who would like to

join us on the air with a question of their own.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city, and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private one.

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on the issue we're addressing or something like that.

Perhaps you're a pastor, you disagree with your own congregation or denomination over this issue.

Whatever the issue is that compels you to remain anonymous, we'll grant you that request, but if it's not

personal, please give us first name, city, and state, and country of residence.

Since we only have an hour, let's have an abbreviated description, if you could, of IRBS

Theological Seminary and then also Grace.

Reformed

Baptist

Church of

Palmdale, California.

Great,

and

if

anybody wants

to.

Find out more information later, the website is irbsseminary .org.

Make sure you put those two S's in there back -to -back because sometimes people forget to put one S when they have two

letters next to each other like that.

And IRBS, if you're wondering, stands for Institute for Reformed Baptist Studies.

So we'll repeat that, God willing, later on in the program.

And as I mentioned earlier at the outset of the program, Getting the Garden Right,

Adam's Work, and God's Rest in Light of Christ.

This book is written in the midst of an ongoing dispute,

sometimes very loving, sometimes not so loving dispute, between fellow Baptists who

believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

Most of those on the Covenant side would refer to themselves as Reformed Baptists.

You have a mixture of those on the New Covenant theologian side, whether or not to use that term

Reformed.

Most, I believe at this point, do not, but there are still some that do.

But if you could, I think it would be very helpful to define what is a New Covenant

theologian and then, from a Baptist perspective, define what a Covenant theologian is.

And you could decide which one you want to define first, but I think it would make sense to get those.

Definitions,

at

least

in a

summarized

version,

stated

at the

outset.

And

I

also.

Want to say that, at the outset, that we are not describing some group that we

believe to be non -Christian or our

enemies in any way.

I have many dear, dear brothers in Christ who represent New Covenant

theology, who are pastors in churches that would label themselves that way.

Much of my upbringing in the Christian faith involved going to their

primary conference, which is no longer being held, but the Bunyan Conference, which is named after, of course,

John Bunyan.

And my late wife was from a Baptist church that was

labeled itself as a New Covenant Baptist church, and

therefore I have developed many close friendships.

But even those who, especially those who are leaders of the New Covenant movement,

were primary figures within it, they would also agree that the differences are important.

They shouldn't be viewed as so highly important that people become

mean -spirited towards each other and that kind of a thing, but they're still important.

But what I know that one of the problems in writing a book like this, Dr.

Barcelos, is that New Covenant theology or New Covenant theologians do not make up

a monolith.

They're not all the same.

In fact, I can remember going to the John Bunyan Conference or the Bunyan Conference that you

would have a lot more variety there, typically, than if you were to go to a typical

Reformed Baptist conference where the participants, the

speakers, were adhering to the 1689 Confession.

You would have a lot less disagreement at a Reformed Baptist conference than a New Covenant theologian conference.

You even had a number of dispensationalists that would be there, even on the roster of

speakers, so there seems to be a much more of a.

Diversity with New Covenant theology, am I right?

Yeah, and that's...

Yes, some

were.

Even, they ranged, from my experience, from anti -confessional to those that.

Adhere to the First

London

Baptist Confession.

Right.

And I know that, in

your.

Opinion, hermeneutics is the key of the difference between New Covenant

theology and Covenant theology, and this may come as

quite a surprise to people because there are so many similarities between

the two groups that you could visit a New Covenant theology church

and be there for even years, perhaps, and you might not even really notice any

tangible substantial difference between your experience at a Reformed Baptist church that was confessional.

But tell us, why is the hermeneutical issue so key in this.

Difference?

Yeah, one

of

the

reasons

that

they

would

deny,

that

those

within

the.

New Covenant camp that would deny a a

covenantal relationship between God and Adam is that the Hebrew term for a covenant doesn't

exist within the first.

Two

chapters

of

Genesis.

Am I

right?

Yeah, that's...

I know that the

difference on.

Hermeneutical approach to the scriptures between the two camps, those that believe in Covenant

theology and those that believe in New Covenant theology, is that you would believe,

as would your allies or brethren and colleagues in the Covenant

theology camp, that proper hermeneutics leads to a covenant of works in

the Garden of Eden and also to a perpetuity of the Sabbath day to be kept under the inaugurated New

Covenant.

That those seems to be, those seem to be the two primary areas of concern here.

Would I be correct in simplifying it.

That way?

Yeah, and

I just have

a word of advice to you if there's any way that.

You could either put your mouth closer to whatever mouthpiece or microphone or phone you're using or speak a little bit

loud, more loudly, because that sometimes we have a hard time understanding you.

It's a little bit quiet on your side.

Sorry about that.

Okay.

Yeah, that's...

I'll try to get the volume up.

That's perfect.

Okay.

Well, why don't we go right now to New Covenant

theology on the Garden of Eden, since your book is titled

Getting the Garden Right, obviously.

In Covenant theology and not

in New Covenant theology, tell us what specifically,

other than what you've already said, that New Covenant theology denies.

And I know that you were addressing the 1689 or Second London Baptist Confession of Faith earlier.

I know that you've said that the confession that we adhere to as Covenantal

Reformed Baptists, that New Covenant theologians rightly point out

that they are, in an effort to be biblicist,

are not importing a word for covenant where it doesn't appear.

And now, how do you define biblicist, first of all, because immediately there are going to be Christians

who love that term, who think it's a correct term.

They're going to be recoiling a bit when they hear you defining that in some kind of a negative.

Way.

That you

would

have to just

get

up

from a

pulpit

and read

the

Bible

and

just

sit

down

afterwards,

right?

By

the

way, I

happen

to

really

enjoy Gary.

Long's, Gary D. Long's book, Definite Atonement, and I've given it out.

Just as a side note, what are your thoughts on that book, if you've read it?

That's an.

Older book,

right?

Yes.

Well, it can

be

difficult going back and forth with our.

Brethren and friends from outside of our specific camp.

And of course, there are even disputes within our own camp between those who

are paedo -baptists and baptists who both claim a covenant theology.

I know that this is not the primary reason you wrote the book, but can you at least give a very brief

description of why there is a difference between two groups on a very, very important thing

who claim the same term for their theology, covenant theology?

Repeat that question.

Well, covenant theologians, those who believe in covenant theology, are separated

between those who are credo -baptists, such as us, and also paedo -baptists, Presbyterians.

And there are even Presbyterians and paedo -baptists who would say that we, as Baptists, really have no business using

the term at all to describe us.

So I was just wondering if you could, in a very summarized way, so our listeners know when they hear these terms going back and forth,

they may be puzzled as to why their Presbyterian pastor, for instance, says he holds the covenant

theology.

And in fact, the thing that I always heard for the last 25 to 30 years of

my Christian life from new covenant theologians is that if you are a covenant theologian,

by necessity you will eventually become, if you are consistent logically, you will become a.

Paedo

-baptist.

Yeah.

And in fact you have paedo -baptists

writing commendations for the book.

Yes.

The issues that divide paedo

-baptists...

I

understand.

I just

wanted to say that.

Because there are going to be people who are paedo -baptists who might be a bit confused.

And to sum it up, we who are Reformed Baptists believe that all

who are in the covenant are of the elect, whereas paedo -baptists, not

all, but many paedo -baptists believe that there are non -elect people included in the covenant because

they are baptized by by Christian parents.

Yeah, and by covenant.

And, well, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, who seems to be claimed by both sides a

great hero of the faith, 19th century hero, he said that the doctrine of the covenant lies at the

root of all true theology.

Would you agree with that.

Statement

by

our

forefather

in

the

faith?

And

before

we

go

to

a

break,

because

we.

Have to go to one very quickly, you define, according to the

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith formula, you define a covenant of works as

being a sovereign divine imposition, a representation by

Adam, federal headship, and sinless image -bearing Son of God, a

conditional element, obedience, a penalty for disobedience, which is death,

and a promise of reward, eschatological potential.

Now, perhaps if you go, in an abbreviated fashion, through those, when we come back from the break,

our listeners will maybe get a better grasp as to why this is an important issue and not

something just for ivory tower theologians to discuss over snifters of brandy and

cigars in a locked room somewhere.

These are things that have practical implication on the teaching and practice of the Christian Church.

Okay.

But we have to go to our first break right now.

It'll be brief, and don't go away, God willing, we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains.

Prusdy has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because.

Everyone needs a pastor.

I am Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit WNG .org forward slash Iron Sharpens

to get your World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit

card required.

Visit World News Group at WNG .org forward

slash Iron Sharpens today.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour is Dr. Richard C. Barcelos, who is

Associate Professor of Biblical Studies at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield,

Texas, and pastor at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Palmdale, Florida.

We are discussing his book, Getting the Garden Right, Adam's Work, and God's Rest in Light of Christ.

During our second hour, our guest will be Andrew J. Lindsay to discuss his book, The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of

Martin Luther.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com, and we have some of

you waiting patiently, or at least you're waiting, I don't know if you're being patient, but you have some people waiting to have

their questions asked and answered, but I would like to go through some of these primary points which seem to be crucial to our

discussion today.

As far as the way the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith

formulates the.

Covenant of Works, let's start with it is a sovereign divine imposition.

Oh, I did?

I don't want hundreds of people looking for our church in Florida this.

Lord.

That's odd, because I'm staring right at it, and it says California.

I don't know, maybe a palm tree directed me the wrong side of the United States.

I don't know why.

Sorry, did I always say Florida, or did I at least?

Okay, all right, sorry.

About

that.

Okay, sovereign.

Like a marriage

would be

between a

man and

a

woman,

or even a

business

contract.

Yeah,

like a

business.

Oh

yeah,

sure, sure.

A federal.

And

you

were

incorrectly

taught

about

this

in

seminary.

Yes,

yes.

I'm

gonna.

Take some of our listener questions, because we are, as I predicted, running out of time very

rapidly.

But we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, would you

agree with the assessment.

That I have come to understand in regard to my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ

who adhere to New Covenant theology, is that they wrongly assume, because

of our view of the law being perpetual in the New Covenant era,

that we are somehow some kind of Judaizers that are

importing Old Covenant principles into the New Covenant where they don't belong, and therefore we are

blurring the glorious and wonderful.

Doctrine of salvation that is totally of God and totally free to man.

So

the.

Fact that the Covenant theologian believes that the Decalogue was not exclusively meant

for Israel alone, but is also applicable to the church for all

ages while the earth exists, that does not necessitate or even

hint at the fact that we believe that our obedience to God somehow is meritorious or is.

Involved

in us

becoming

either

regenerate

or

worthy

of

heaven.

Well,.

Thank you, RJ.

Guess what?

You have won a free copy of the book we are discussing, Getting the Garden Right, compliments of our

friends at Founders Press, the publishing arm of Founders Ministries, so please make sure we have your full mailing

address so that CVBBS .com can ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I hope I

am not overly simplifying this, but in my life, having fellowship with

my friends in the New Covenant Theology camp, the only distinction I can

see in a practical and tangible way is that the brethren from that

camp might do things that we would not normally do on Sunday.

They would perhaps go shopping or eat at a restaurant or go to a sporting event or something

like that, whereas many, but not all, Covenant theologians

would not be involved in those activities.

But it seems that in everywhere else in life, they are nearly identical

because of the fact that they say that nine of the Ten Commandments are

repeated and.

Reinstituted

in

the New

Covenant

anyway.

Can you

respond

to what I

said?

Of

course,

some

would say it's

heresy to ever go

to a Yankee game.

He'd say, who

are the

Yankees?

Sorry.

But my

point is that

we...

Now, do you think

that that is the.

Primary reason why there is a difference is how one views the Lord's Day?

And I agree with you that that's another way that they are not monolithic, because I've met New Covenant people

who believe that there is significance to the first day, and I've met others that say exactly what you said.

Oh, it could be Tuesday, Wednesday, doesn't matter.

And yet none of those have picked Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday as their day of

gathering.

But is the primary, the outcome of the differences on how one views

the uniqueness of the Lord's Day?

Yeah,

that's because

there was a

listener

who

wrote

in a

question.

Would

you

be

able.

To, because we're rapidly running out of time, we have less than five minutes left, would you be able to just summarize now

what you believe the most important implications of the differences are between New Covenant theologians and

Covenant theologians?

Yeah, the main reason why someone should pick up getting the Garden right, because it's going to affect

other areas in their.

Thinking and

hermeneutics

and so on.

Yeah, well,

I

think what

the Garden book...

And we.

Have time for maybe one more listener question.

By the way, B .B., you've also won a free copy of the book.

Make sure we get your full mailing address.

John in Bangor, Maine asks, I've heard differences of opinion on this.

Is the Bible clear enough to give us the answer?

According to Adam being the one who, through his disobedience, brought sin

to the entirety of the human race, can we.

Expect to see him and Eve in

heaven in

eternity?

Well,

I do

want to make sure,

as.

We run out of time here, that our listeners have all of the proper contact

information for you.

I know that, once again, the website for the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies Seminary, or

IRBS Seminary, is IRBSseminary .org

IRBSseminary .org.

And, of course, the website for Grace Reformed Baptist Church

of Palmdale, California.

Got the the state right this time.

If you want to look that up, if you are either visiting Palmdale, California,

or you have family, friends, and loved ones there, you can go to GRBCAV, as in

victory, dot org.

GRBCAV, as in victory, dot org.

Do you have any other further contact information or anything else that you'd like to mention before we go off the air for

our midway break, before our next guest comes on?

Well, it's been a pleasure having you on, Dr. Barcellos.

I look forward to your return to the program.

Perhaps we can discuss your book on the Lord's Supper in the future.

And please send my regards to all at the IRBS Theological Seminary.

Okay, great.

Thanks for having me.

Hey, my pleasure.

God bless.

Okay.

And don't go away, folks, because any moment now we are going to be joined, after our 12 -minute

break, that is, by our second guest, Andrew J. Lindsay.

We are going to be discussing his book, The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther, and our email address

is chrisarendsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only

remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be back after this 12 -minute break with Andrew J. Lindsay.

Tired of box -store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in - island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience,

featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at w -r -b -c -dot -u -s.

That's w -r -b -c -dot -u -s.

One.

Sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively

use BatteryDepot .com for all your battery needs.

At BatteryDepot .com, they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

Ordering from BatteryDepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh, out -of -the -box batteries

you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs,

laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card

readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes, GPS's, mp3 players,

watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to BatteryDepot

.com.

Next day shipping available.

All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768.

That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to BatteryDepot .com.

That's BatteryDepot .com.

Every day at thousands of community.

Centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement

to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385

-8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit L -I -Y -F -C .org.

That's L -I -Y -F -C .org.

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors.

Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering,

understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath

remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and

more.

For a clear detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers

who provide superior results that stand to the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981.

717 -697 -1981.

Or visit SolidRockRemodeling .com.

That's SolidRockRemodeling .com.

Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to.

Your home.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more.

Than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a.

Gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a.

Hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church.

Can be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit.

LinbrookBaptist .org.

That's LinbrookBaptist .org.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat

center nestled on the Jersey Shore.

Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.

Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples,

singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

90 miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington,

and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at

Harvey Cedars, like the Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus

Crusade, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.

Hcbible

.org.

Call 609 -494 -5689.

609 -494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled

Resting in Grace.

You can find us at ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org.

That's ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org.

Or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Ironson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books

and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available, because frankly, much of what

is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is cvbbs .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you, the Church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

You will receive free shipping on any order, $50 or more, from cvbbs .com.

You can also call them toll -free Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 .30

p .m. Eastern Time at 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656

-0231.

And by the way, if you order $50 or more and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you will also

receive a free book by E .M. Bounds.

So make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings, the owners of cvbbs .com, for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio.

Before we go to our second guest today, Andrew J. Lindsay, who's going to be discussing his

book, The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther, I just have a couple of very quick announcements.

First of all, the Banner of Truth Conference is going to be held next week.

I hope that I see many in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listening audience there.

Typically, when I go to these events, I bump into a lot of people, some of whom I have heard from

before, who have written in questions to our guests, some of them who have been guests themselves

on the show.

And I also tend to meet a lot of people that I have never heard from before, but who have been faithfully listening

for many years.

So I'm looking forward to being in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, at Elizabethtown College, May

29th through the 31st, at the Banner of Truth U .S. Ministers Conference.

The theme is Ministers of Christ.

And the speakers include Alistair Begg, Johnny Gibson, Mark Johnston, Al Mohler, David Strain, and Craig

Troxell.

If you want to register, go to BannerofTruth .org, BannerofTruth .org, click on Events, and click on U .S.

Ministers Conference.

Make sure you click U .S. Ministers Conference and not U .K. Ministers Conference, because they've already had

a number of U .K. conferences.

One of them just completed not so long ago.

So if you want the right information, go to U .S. Ministers Conference, which is the conference next week, May 29th through

the 31st, in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

That's BannerofTruth .org, BannerofTruth .org.

Please tell the folks at the Banner of Truth that you heard about them and their conference from Chris Arns and on Iron Trip and

Zion Radio.

Last but not least, and I'll make this a lot more briefly than I

usually have, but please, if you love the show, you don't want Iron Trip and Zion Radio to

disappear, go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to

Donate Now.

And you can instantly donate through a debit or credit card.

We are having some very difficult times financially, and I thank

God that there are those of you coming to the rescue.

As I said yesterday, I believe Linda and Glenn in Hilltop Lakes,

Texas, just paid for the Iron Trip and Zion Radio electric bill that is coming up.

And we need to have rent paid and a lot of things that need to be paid, and we need your help to do that.

The steady stream of donations that were coming in has seemed to have nearly dried up,

other than a few of you who have been very faithful and generous.

And we just ask of you, if you are able to donate, go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to

Donate Now.

And you can also mail in a check made payable to Iron Trip and Zion Radio to the address that pops up if you

prefer snail mail.

Please never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church.

If you're not a member of a local Bible -believing church, I can help you find one if you're having difficulty finding one.

You're living in disobedience to God if you're not a member of a Bible -believing church and under the authority of the elders there.

Never put your family in financial jeopardy either by giving to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Those two things are obviously commands of God, providing for church and home.

And although providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is not a command of God, if you love the show and you don't want it to go

away, you love giving away the free MP3s, or should I say sharing the free MP3s with others,

you look forward to the guests and topics we address every day, you don't want this show to become ancient

history, then please go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate

Now.

If you want to advertise this, send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

whatever it is you want to advertise, your church, your parachurch organization, your business, your professional practice, as long as

whatever it is you are advertising is compatible with the theology we express, it doesn't have

to be identical, it just needs to be compatible, whatever it is you're promoting that is needs to be compatible with the theology

we express, then please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the

subject line and we will work with you on launching an ad campaign because we surely could use the

advertising dollars.

That's also the email address to use, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com to send in a question

to Andrew J. Lindsay, who is our second guest today.

He has his BA in History from Georgia State University and his THM in Church History

from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and he has 7 years of experience

teaching from middle school through college and 15 years teaching in the church, and he is

addressing, as I said earlier, his book, The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you

for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Andrew J. Lindsay.

Thank you, sir. It's good to be on with you.

Great, and what I typically do when I have a first -time guest such as yourself, I have them

give an abbreviated version of your testimony of salvation, the kind of religious

atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what the providential circumstances our sovereign Lord

used to draw you to himself and save you.

Well, thank you.

This is good.

We just had been going over our testimony,

and

at

that

time,

a teacher

wanted

him to take

my

sins

away,

wanted him to take my life, wanted to live for him rather than for myself.

Of course, I haven't done that, and

that's why I hope

in...

And now let's come to your desire to write this book,

The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther.

There have been many, many, many things of varying sizes

intended for varying audiences about the life of the great reformer, Martin Luther.

Why did you see a need for another edition, another

volume, to come into print, and who is the intended audience for your

work?

Right.

I...

Now, I know that you are a graduate of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

I am guessing that you are a Calvinistic Southern Baptist, or at least a Baptist.

Am I right on that guess?

Yes, sir.

Our church...

Yeah, and actually, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that you were one of the proof readers for

my first guest's book, Getting the Garden Right.

Yes, I loved...

Yeah, I had no idea when I arranged these two interviews.

This is for the benefit of our listeners.

I had no idea that there was any connection between Dr. Richard C. Barcelos and my second guest,

Andrew J. Lindsay, so it was quite an interesting providential occurrence.

One of the reasons I brought up your Baptist identity is because

many people, perhaps even especially Lutherans, might wonder why on earth

is a Calvinist, and not only a Calvinist, but a Baptist, writing a work

in tribute to Martin Luther.

You know, that's no fair.

He can't take our hero.

But anyway, how do you respond to that?

Well, that's a good point.

I would point them to, if you look at John Calvin's Bondage and Liberation of the Will,

early in that work, he used

unity at that point.

And that was a pivotal debate that Luther had with Erasmus during the

Reformation, so that was a key element of Luther's protest against Rome.

Exactly, and then that's echoed in with Pyggius.

All right, well, why don't we go through an evaluation in summary form, obviously, because of our limited time, those

three elements.

Sure, okay, well,

justification

by faith

alone,

that

is by which

God and

his harem

God

learn again,

and that

really is,

that

is, is,

emphasizes

this so

well.

We are Baptists, after all.

Yeah, well, the reason why I brought that up somewhat tongue -in -cheek is because, as you know, Credo

Baptists very often, not always, not always, but very often have a different understanding of how

to approach the children of believers than our Pado Baptist friends do.

Right, because I think that's true.

Well, that's why

people like Joel Beeky and others who are Pado Baptists.

Disagree with many other Pado Baptists over that issue, because they would be more in line with

the Puritan understanding of that.

Right, yeah, and I think that's one to go with there.

The message is that we don't bring anything, we

have to,

and obedience to the Father is what we guide

to ourselves.

Again, this is whatever else he's riding on and other things that would be debatable.

Well, we are going to go to our final break, which is very brief, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question

of your own, I would do so now before we run out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Andrew J. Lindsay and more of Martin Luther, the life,

teaching and legacy of the great reformer, right after these messages from our sponsors.

Hi, I'm Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wmg .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your World Trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit

card required.

Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward

slash iron sharpens today.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the Ethisphere Institute,

a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best practices

in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant,

at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the Thriving Difference.

Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

There are four ways you can help.

First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio?

Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise,

and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at

ironsharpensironradio .com and click Support at the top of the page.

But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Sorensen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest for this remaining hour, actually for the

second half of the program, but only a half hour remaining, is Andrew J. Lindsay.

We are discussing his book, The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther.

Our email address is chrissorensen at gmail .com.

If you have any questions, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

We have a listener.

Let's see here.

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks, do you

see a conflict between Martin Luther's firm adherence to justification

by faith alone and simultaneously his adherence to baptismal regeneration?

Yes.

So, in other words, Luther's understanding of infant baptism was not

that it was a baptism necessarily just by proxy of Christian parents

having their baby baptized, that there is nothing within the baby itself that

would make it a proper candidate for baptism

in a baptistic sense, but it is solely a baptism by proxy, perhaps, whereas

Luther viewed this as almost like a John the Baptist experience,

where John the Baptist leapt to joy in the womb of his mother, being near the pregnant Mary.

That is my understanding, yes.

He is writing on baptism.

No, I'm assuming you would agree with Luther on the premise that it is

possible for a child within the womb to be supernaturally

given faith by God, who is sovereign over all things, and he seems to have done something like that

with John the Baptist in the womb, although there is difference of opinion on what that actually means.

But that is a separate issue from the ordinance or sacrament of baptism.

Right, right.

But you're not just completely importing a Baptist mindset

into this, because you said that Luther himself was trying to

somehow get around from the sacerdotal implications of a

baby becoming regenerate by virtue of a baptism by proxy by his

Christian parents.

That's right.

I'm willing to say that, okay,

so totally

inconsistent,

the theology of the cross, and then this, the bondage of the will.

And I think that those go

together.

No, no, that's fine.

And we have another listener from Slovenia.

Oh, wow.

We have Joe in Slovenia who says, Dear Brother Chris, as far as I can tell, I'm in agreement with much of what

conservative confessional Lutherans teach who claim to be faithful to the theology of Martin

Luther.

The most important areas where I completely disagree with them are in the doctrines regarding

baptism and the Lord's Supper.

What prevented Brother Martin from interpreting the texts on these topics in

the metaphorical way they are presented in Scripture so as to bring unity and disagreement between

himself, Zwingli, Calvin, and Reformed Baptists?

Well, obviously, you'd have to read Luther's mind to know that exactly.

But some of it has to do, I'm assuming, the fact that he was a Roman

Catholic who never really intended to leave the Roman Catholic Church.

And because he is a human, a fallible human, a flawed human, he was retaining some

of those things from the Catholicism that he was so entrenched in at one point.

Am I right?

Yeah, I think that's important to know.

Even, you know, we celebrate

the 95

inventors.

Those 95 theses, if you read them, are

still awash in some Roman Catholic doctrine.

You can see in his teaching over time where he's continuing this kind of work of Reformed

teaching.

So there's some of that.

For him, he wants to keep...

I think the reason you get this, his errors, is because he thinks that he's honoring Christ in

them in some way.

That there is some kind of spiritual thing that

you want to have this nearness of Christ in the Lord's Supper.

And he thinks the way you do that is by talking about the body of Christ being

in and with and under the element of instantiation

idea.

Where he says that it's not transforming his body

and blood are still there in some way.

He wants a nearness to God in that.

And the way he's doing that, again, how he...

wants a nearness of Christ.

Well,

thank

you.

Joe in Slovenia.

Thank you also for providing us with an American address where your daughter lives.

Because you are also going to get a free copy of The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther by our guest

Andrew J. Lindsay.

So please make sure that your daughter lets you know when that arrives.

And she can either ship that out to you or wait for you to visit the United States to get that book.

Let's see here.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who says did Martin

Luther to your knowledge ever have a similar view as Calvin on

what we would call limited atonement, definite atonement, or particular redemption.

It seems that our Lutheran brethren today are very vociferously and

adamantly opposed to that notion that we who are Reformed cling to as a very important

doctrine.

And I was wondering if they have strayed from the historical Luther or if Luther never truly

had come to that understanding himself.

That is.

A great...

He has

some statements,

Romans talking about Martin

Luther.

Yeah,

here's for

man's sake that he may enjoy him etc.

And he says all for the elect.

And he says this is my blood which is shed for you

Luke 22, 20 and for many Mark 14, 24.

He did

not say

in terms of

I

have

had some

fully

know

about that

or to what Calvin says here earlier

in

his...

And I think that there is, you know, later on when you get into his later life.

Yeah,

it seems

that Luther.

And Lutherans in general think that Calvin and Calvinists want to

say too much that we don't relegate enough to mystery.

And am I right on that comparison?

I'm not saying that they're correct in their assessment because we still leave a

lot to mystery that we believe that God intended to leave the mystery.

There is a tension between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man and these kinds of things that

our minds cannot completely understand and rectify and

harmonize and all that.

But would that be an accurate way of saying one of the differences that exist is the realm of

mystery that Luther believed more should be kept

as mysterious?

Yeah, I think especially

and ultimately in Reformed as well, we want to say

that it becomes what

history and if

on him are actually...

Well, thank you Harrison.

You've also won a free copy of The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther by our guest Andrew J.

Lindsay.

Make sure we have your full mailing address or you can go by cvbbs .com in

Carlisle, Pennsylvania on North Hanover Street since you're so close.

You can pick it up there but let us know either way.

Let's see here.

We have a listener Christopher in

Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who says, Do you believe that

Luther finally came to a place of genuine repentance in regard to things he

thought and said that were sinful in regard to the Jews?

He

has

a

great

hope.

He becomes

bitter

against the

Jews and

that is

official persecution of the Jews.

Do you see any...

Yeah, I seem to recall and I don't know.

He's not here to give further explanation to his interview with me which was a number of

years ago on my old show when it was broadcasting out of New York but my former webmaster, James

Swan, who is studying at Westminster Theological Seminary, I seem

to recall that he thought that there was some historical evidence for right before the end of his life

some kind of repentance by Luther on.

That.

Really?

I would like to see that.

I'm open to being...

Right, well we'll have to put you two in connection with each other but one thing that we have to make clear though that

even though there is no excuse or there is no softening

the sin of the kind of hate speech that Luther did

spread in regard to the Jews it has to be distinguished

between ethnic anti -Semitism and hatred as opposed to religious

polemics.

We obviously believe he went way overboard with his polemics but at the same time that was very common back

then by all religions including the Jews and

the Nazis for instance which sadly tried to use or did use

Luther's words to promote their own hatred and evil there

was a difference because Luther welcomed converts to Christianity and

evangelized the Jews and prayed for their conversion whereas in the mindset

of Nazism hundreds of years later it didn't matter if you converted to

Christianity they were concerned with a bloodline that they believed was evil

innately and needed to be eradicated from the earth.

That's why they would go through the family records of people and if they were a convert to

Christianity it didn't matter if they found out there was a Jew in their bloodline.

Am I right on this?

Right, yeah.

Amen.

And we have time for one more question.

Arnie in Perry County Pennsylvania who says can you set this record straight as to

the slander by some fundamentalist Baptists and others that Luther

actually called for the execution of Anabaptists isn't the main

sin that he was guilty of in this area is that he did not grant

Anabaptists free passage in Germany where they could flee to safety

when the government was seeking to persecute them all because of the fact that some of them were

anarchists but Luther himself did not call for or participate in the

actual torture or execution of Anabaptists.

Could you clarify whether or not I am correct in my assessment?

Yeah,

I can't see any evidence

and he does have a.

In 1531 there is a memorandum that he argues that those who are going

against the state

church you could

merit the death penalty because you are undermining society in their view.

You know the Anabaptists tried to overthrow

church

and he

didn't act as

a.

Well you have two minutes now brother to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to the

life teaching and legacy of Martin Luther.

Right and I think what I want to emphasize is again those.

The

Well do you have any contact information that you'd like to provide

our listeners?

I know that basically nearly any book that we address here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio can be

purchased through our sponsors CVBBS .com CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for

Bible Book Service .com and if they don't have it in stock they can order it.

But do you have any other websites or contact information that you care to share.

With our listeners?

Sure, anybody can just email me if they

want.

Great.

Well I want to thank you so much for being our guest today for the second hour of the program Andrew

and I want to thank those that took the time to write in questions.

You've all won a free copy of the book The Life Teaching and Legacy of Martin Luther by our guest

and I hope that you all make a note to listen to our program tomorrow.

We have some excellent guests lined up on Iron Trip and Zion Radio so please

continue to tune in.

Please continue to pray for our finances.

Please continue to donate whenever possible and I hope that you all always remember for the rest of

your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow for our guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.