May 23, 2018 Show with Dr. Richard Barcellos on “Getting the Garden Right: Adam’s Work & God’s Rest in Light of Christ” PLUS Andrew J. Lindsey on “The Life, Teaching & Legacy of Martin Luther”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Opens With Scripture and Program Introduction

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 23rd day of May 2018.

I'm delighted to have back as a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Richard C. Barcelos. He will be on for the first hour. He is the author of five books, editor and co-author of three others.

He's a contributor to various journals and magazines including Table Talk, the magazine of Ligonier Ministries founded by the late Dr. R .C. Sproul, and he's also an associate professor of biblical studies at IRBS Theological Seminary and a pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Palmdale, California.

Today we are going to be addressing a very controversial issue, an issue that divides Baptists that both claim to be believers and proclaimers and defenders of the doctrines of sovereign grace, aka Calvinism.

Covenant Theology, New Covenant Theology, and the Garden of Eden

The book we are addressing is Getting the Garden Right, Adam's Work and God's Rest in Light of Christ, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Richard Barcelos.

Hey, thanks for having me. Great, and let me right off the bat give our email address for those of our listeners who would like to join us on the air with a question of their own. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city, and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private one. Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on the issue we're addressing or something like that.

Perhaps you're a pastor, you disagree with your own congregation or denomination over this issue. Whatever the issue is that compels you to remain anonymous, we'll grant you that request, but if it's not personal, please give us first name, city, and state, and country of residence.

Since we only have an hour, let's have an abbreviated description, if you could, of IRBS Theological Seminary and then also Grace.

Reformed Baptist Church of Palmdale, California. Great, and if anybody wants to.

Find out more information later, the website is irbsseminary .org. Make sure you put those two S's in there back-to-back because sometimes people forget to put one S when they have two letters next to each other like that.

And IRBS, if you're wondering, stands for Institute for Reformed Baptist Studies. So we'll repeat that, God willing, later on in the program. And as I mentioned earlier at the outset of the program, Getting the Garden Right, Adam's Work, and God's Rest in Light of Christ.

This book is written in the midst of an ongoing dispute, sometimes very loving, sometimes not so loving dispute, between fellow Baptists who believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace. Most of those on the Covenant side would refer to themselves as Reformed Baptists.

You have a mixture of those on the New Covenant theologian side, whether or not to use that term Reformed. Most, I believe at this point, do not, but there are still some that do. But if you could, I think it would be very helpful to define what is a New Covenant theologian and then, from a Baptist perspective, define what a Covenant theologian is.

And you could decide which one you want to define first, but I think it would make sense to get those.

Definitions, at least in a summarized version, stated at the outset. And I also.

Want to say that, at the outset, that we are not describing some group that we believe to be non-Christian or our enemies in any way. I have many dear, dear brothers in Christ who represent New Covenant theology, who are pastors in churches that would label themselves that way.

Much of my upbringing in the Christian faith involved going to their primary conference, which is no longer being held, but the Bunyan Conference, which is named after, of course, John Bunyan. And my late wife was from a Baptist church that was labeled itself as a New Covenant Baptist church, and therefore I have developed many close friendships.

But even those who, especially those who are leaders of the New Covenant movement, were primary figures within it, they would also agree that the differences are important. They shouldn't be viewed as so highly important that people become mean-spirited towards each other and that kind of a thing, but they're still important.

But what I know that one of the problems in writing a book like this, Dr. Barcelos, is that New Covenant theology or New Covenant theologians do not make up a monolith. They're not all the same. In fact, I can remember going to the John Bunyan Conference or the Bunyan Conference that you would have a lot more variety there, typically, than if you were to go to a typical Reformed Baptist conference where the participants, the speakers, were adhering to the 1689 Confession.

You would have a lot less disagreement at a Reformed Baptist conference than a New Covenant theologian conference. You even had a number of dispensationalists that would be there, even on the roster of speakers, so there seems to be a much more of a.

Diversity with New Covenant theology, am I right? Yeah, and that's... Yes, some were.

Even, they ranged, from my experience, from anti-confessional to those that.

Adhere to the First London Baptist Confession. Right. And I know that, in your.

Opinion, hermeneutics is the key of the difference between New Covenant theology and Covenant theology, and this may come as quite a surprise to people because there are so many similarities between the two groups that you could visit a New Covenant theology church and be there for even years, perhaps, and you might not even really notice any tangible substantial difference between your experience at a Reformed Baptist church that was confessional.

But tell us, why is the hermeneutical issue so key in this.

Difference? Yeah, one of the reasons that they would deny, that those within the.

New Covenant camp that would deny a a covenantal relationship between God and Adam is that the Hebrew term for a covenant doesn't exist within the first.

Two chapters of Genesis. Am I right? Yeah, that's... I know that the difference on.

Hermeneutical approach to the scriptures between the two camps, those that believe in Covenant theology and those that believe in New Covenant theology, is that you would believe, as would your allies or brethren and colleagues in the Covenant theology camp, that proper hermeneutics leads to a covenant of works in the Garden of Eden and also to a perpetuity of the Sabbath day to be kept under the inaugurated New Covenant.

That those seems to be, those seem to be the two primary areas of concern here. Would I be correct in simplifying it.

That way? Yeah, and I just have a word of advice to you if there's any way that.

You could either put your mouth closer to whatever mouthpiece or microphone or phone you're using or speak a little bit loud, more loudly, because that sometimes we have a hard time understanding you.

It's a little bit quiet on your side. Sorry about that. Okay. Yeah, that's... I'll try to get the volume up. That's perfect. Okay. Well, why don't we go right now to New Covenant theology on the Garden of Eden, since your book is titled Getting the Garden Right, obviously.

In Covenant theology and not in New Covenant theology, tell us what specifically, other than what you've already said, that New Covenant theology denies. And I know that you were addressing the 1689 or Second London Baptist Confession of Faith earlier.

I know that you've said that the confession that we adhere to as Covenantal Reformed Baptists, that New Covenant theologians rightly point out that they are, in an effort to be biblicist, are not importing a word for covenant where it doesn't appear.

And now, how do you define biblicist, first of all, because immediately there are going to be Christians who love that term, who think it's a correct term. They're going to be recoiling a bit when they hear you defining that in some kind of a negative.

Way. That you would have to just get up from a pulpit and read the Bible and just sit down afterwards, right? By the way, I happen to really enjoy Gary.

Long's, Gary D. Long's book, Definite Atonement, and I've given it out. Just as a side note, what are your thoughts on that book, if you've read it? That's an.

Older book, right? Yes. Well, it can be difficult going back and forth with our.

Brethren and friends from outside of our specific camp. And of course, there are even disputes within our own camp between those who are paedo-baptists and baptists who both claim a covenant theology.

I know that this is not the primary reason you wrote the book, but can you at least give a very brief description of why there is a difference between two groups on a very, very important thing who claim the same term for their theology, covenant theology?

Repeat that question. Well, covenant theologians, those who believe in covenant theology, are separated between those who are credo-baptists, such as us, and also paedo-baptists, Presbyterians. And there are even Presbyterians and paedo-baptists who would say that we, as Baptists, really have no business using the term at all to describe us.

So I was just wondering if you could, in a very summarized way, so our listeners know when they hear these terms going back and forth, they may be puzzled as to why their Presbyterian pastor, for instance, says he holds the covenant theology.

And in fact, the thing that I always heard for the last 25 to 30 years of my Christian life from new covenant theologians is that if you are a covenant theologian, by necessity you will eventually become, if you are consistent logically, you will become a.

Paedo-baptist. Yeah. And in fact you have paedo-baptists writing commendations for the book. Yes. The issues that divide paedo-baptists... I understand. I just wanted to say that.

Because there are going to be people who are paedo-baptists who might be a bit confused. And to sum it up, we who are Reformed Baptists believe that all who are in the covenant are of the elect, whereas paedo-baptists, not all, but many paedo-baptists believe that there are non-elect people included in the covenant because they are baptized by by Christian parents.

Yeah, and by covenant. And, well, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, who seems to be claimed by both sides a great hero of the faith, 19th century hero, he said that the doctrine of the covenant lies at the root of all true theology.

Would you agree with that.

Statement by our forefather in the faith? And before we go to a break, because we.

Have to go to one very quickly, you define, according to the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith formula, you define a covenant of works as being a sovereign divine imposition, a representation by Adam, federal headship, and sinless image-bearing Son of God, a conditional element, obedience, a penalty for disobedience, which is death, and a promise of reward, eschatological potential.

Now, perhaps if you go, in an abbreviated fashion, through those, when we come back from the break, our listeners will maybe get a better grasp as to why this is an important issue and not something just for ivory tower theologians to discuss over snifters of brandy and cigars in a locked room somewhere.

These are things that have practical implication on the teaching and practice of the Christian Church. Okay. But we have to go to our first break right now. It'll be brief, and don't go away, God willing, we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Adam as Federal Head and the Covenant of Works

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour is Dr. Richard C. Barcelos, who is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, and pastor at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Palmdale, Florida.

We are discussing his book, Getting the Garden Right, Adam's Work, and God's Rest in Light of Christ. During our second hour, our guest will be Andrew J. Lindsay to discuss his book, The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com, and we have some of you waiting patiently, or at least you're waiting, I don't know if you're being patient, but you have some people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but I would like to go through some of these primary points which seem to be crucial to our discussion today.

As far as the way the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith formulates the.

Covenant of Works, let's start with it is a sovereign divine imposition. Oh, I did? I don't want hundreds of people looking for our church in Florida this.

Lord. That's odd, because I'm staring right at it, and it says California. I don't know, maybe a palm tree directed me the wrong side of the United States. I don't know why. Sorry, did I always say Florida, or did I at least?

Okay, all right, sorry.

About that. Okay, sovereign. Like a marriage would be between a man and a woman, or even a business contract. Yeah, like a business. Oh yeah, sure, sure. A federal. And you were incorrectly taught about this in seminary.

Yes, yes. I'm gonna.

Take some of our listener questions, because we are, as I predicted, running out of time very rapidly. But we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, would you agree with the assessment. That I have come to understand in regard to my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ who adhere to New Covenant theology, is that they wrongly assume, because of our view of the law being perpetual in the New Covenant era, that we are somehow some kind of Judaizers that are importing Old Covenant principles into the New Covenant where they don't belong, and therefore we are blurring the glorious and wonderful.

Doctrine of salvation that is totally of God and totally free to man. So the.

Fact that the Covenant theologian believes that the Decalogue was not exclusively meant for Israel alone, but is also applicable to the church for all ages while the earth exists, that does not necessitate or even hint at the fact that we believe that our obedience to God somehow is meritorious or is.

Involved in us becoming either regenerate or worthy of heaven. Well,.

Thank you, RJ. Guess what? You have won a free copy of the book we are discussing, Getting the Garden Right, compliments of our friends at Founders Press, the publishing arm of Founders Ministries, so please make sure we have your full mailing address so that CVBBS .com can ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I hope I am not overly simplifying this, but in my life, having fellowship with my friends in the New Covenant Theology camp, the only distinction I can see in a practical and tangible way is that the brethren from that camp might do things that we would not normally do on Sunday.

They would perhaps go shopping or eat at a restaurant or go to a sporting event or something like that, whereas many, but not all, Covenant theologians would not be involved in those activities. But it seems that in everywhere else in life, they are nearly identical because of the fact that they say that nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated and.

Reinstituted in the New Covenant anyway. Can you respond to what I said? Of course, some would say it's heresy to ever go to a Yankee game. He'd say, who are the Yankees? Sorry. But my point is that we...

The Lord's Day and the Practical Differences Between the Camps

Now, do you think that that is the.

Primary reason why there is a difference is how one views the Lord's Day? And I agree with you that that's another way that they are not monolithic, because I've met New Covenant people who believe that there is significance to the first day, and I've met others that say exactly what you said.

Oh, it could be Tuesday, Wednesday, doesn't matter. And yet none of those have picked Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday as their day of gathering. But is the primary, the outcome of the differences on how one views the uniqueness of the Lord's Day?

Yeah, that's because there was a listener who wrote in a question. Would you be able.

To, because we're rapidly running out of time, we have less than five minutes left, would you be able to just summarize now what you believe the most important implications of the differences are between New Covenant theologians and Covenant theologians?

Yeah, the main reason why someone should pick up getting the Garden right, because it's going to affect other areas in their.

Thinking and hermeneutics and so on. Yeah, well, I think what the Garden book... And we.

Have time for maybe one more listener question. By the way, B .B., you've also won a free copy of the book. Make sure we get your full mailing address. John in Bangor, Maine asks, I've heard differences of opinion on this.

Is the Bible clear enough to give us the answer? According to Adam being the one who, through his disobedience, brought sin to the entirety of the human race, can we.

Expect to see him and Eve in heaven in eternity? Well, I do want to make sure, as.

We run out of time here, that our listeners have all of the proper contact information for you. I know that, once again, the website for the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies Seminary, or IRBS Seminary, is IRBSseminary .org IRBSseminary .org.

And, of course, the website for Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Palmdale, California. Got the the state right this time. If you want to look that up, if you are either visiting Palmdale, California, or you have family, friends, and loved ones there, you can go to GRBCAV, as in victory, dot org.

GRBCAV, as in victory, dot org. Do you have any other further contact information or anything else that you'd like to mention before we go off the air for our midway break, before our next guest comes on?

Well, it's been a pleasure having you on, Dr. Barcellos. I look forward to your return to the program. Perhaps we can discuss your book on the Lord's Supper in the future. And please send my regards to all at the IRBS Theological Seminary.

Okay, great. Thanks for having me. Hey, my pleasure. God bless. Okay. And don't go away, folks, because any moment now we are going to be joined, after our 12-minute break, that is, by our second guest, Andrew J. Lindsay.

We are going to be discussing his book, The Life, Teaching, and Legacy of Martin Luther, and our email address is chrisarendsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be back after this 12-minute break with Andrew J. Lindsay. Tired of box-store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

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Martin Luther, Justification by Faith, and the Bondage of the Will

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Make sure you click U .S. Ministers Conference and not U .K. Ministers Conference, because they've already had a number of U .K. conferences. One of them just completed not so long ago. So if you want the right information, go to U .S. Ministers Conference, which is the conference next week, May 29th through the 31st, in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

That's BannerofTruth .org, BannerofTruth .org. Please tell the folks at the Banner of Truth that you heard about them and their conference from Chris Arns and on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Last but not least, and I'll make this a lot more briefly than I usually have, but please, if you love the show, you don't want Iron Trip and Zion Radio to disappear, go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now.

And you can instantly donate through a debit or credit card. We are having some very difficult times financially, and I thank God that there are those of you coming to the rescue. As I said yesterday, I believe Linda and Glenn in Hilltop Lakes, Texas, just paid for the Iron Trip and Zion Radio electric bill that is coming up.

And we need to have rent paid and a lot of things that need to be paid, and we need your help to do that. The steady stream of donations that were coming in has seemed to have nearly dried up, other than a few of you who have been very faithful and generous.

And we just ask of you, if you are able to donate, go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. And you can also mail in a check made payable to Iron Trip and Zion Radio to the address that pops up if you prefer snail mail.

Please never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church. If you're not a member of a local Bible-believing church, I can help you find one if you're having difficulty finding one.

You're living in disobedience to God if you're not a member of a Bible-believing church and under the authority of the elders there. Never put your family in financial jeopardy either by giving to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Those two things are obviously commands of God, providing for church and home. And although providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is not a command of God, if you love the show and you don't want it to go away, you love giving away the free MP3s, or should I say sharing the free MP3s with others, you look forward to the guests and topics we address every day, you don't want this show to become ancient history, then please go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now.