Have You Not Read S2E5 - Election

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the saints.

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I'm Dylan Hamilton, and with me are Michael Durham, Kyle Smith, Chris Kiesler. We have another question that has been sent in from one of our listeners on the text 2

Peter 3 .9. The question reads, in this text, God is revealed to be the one who is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Is the any, in scare quotes, and all in scare quotes, here referring to the church, the elect of God?

Michael, do you want to start us out for us? Yeah, so this is a good question. When we're reading the text, we obviously, we want to be aware of who

Peter is addressing in the passage, and we want to understand the concern that he's trying to address in the text.

So he's writing to those he calls the beloved, and he talks about those who are scoffing, and those who would reject the claims of Christ, and the promises of Christ about the coming of judgment.

And then he says, you know, they're saying, we don't think that this judgment is going to come to pass. Obviously, things are just proceeding along just as normal.

And so he says in verse eight, but beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is long -suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And then we read on about how judgment is coming, and how many will perish.

And so we have to ask the question, of course, is the any or the all speaking to the church, the elect of God?

Now, why would someone ask that question? Well, because of all the variety of concerns, theological concerns, doctrinal questions that arise after reading this passage.

So when it says that the Lord is long -suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, the question is coming forward, well, how does this pertain to what we call definite atonement?

How does this pertain to particular redemption? In that Christ, in addressing his disciples, and then later on addressing his critics, his skeptics, talked about himself as the good shepherd, who lays his life down for the sheep.

And that of all that the Father has given him, he will not lose one. And so there is absolute assurance of the success, the efficacy, the actuality of Christ dying upon the cross for his people.

As we see in other passages, Christ purchased his bride, who are the elect, the church, the

Christians, those born again, he purchased his bride with his blood. So there is a very particular focus of Christ's redemptive work upon the cross.

This being the case, when we read this passage, it says where God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How does that fold in with the particular focus of Christ's redemption? Especially when we think about the contrast that is made in John, where he says, after, you know,

I'm the good shepherd, I lay my life down for the sheep, he points at the Pharisees and scribes and sages and says, you're not my sheep, right?

So he just basically says in very clear metaphor, the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

I'm going to lay down my life for the sheep, which means not you, wolves. Yes, exactly.

So we have a host of different passages like that, that show us that God had a very definite people in mind when

Christ died upon the cross. Who did he die for? Whom did he purchase unto God? Who did he die for to bring them unto

God? Many sons are brought unto glory. In fact, so many, Revelation says, a number so high that no man can count is how many are brought unto the

Lord as part of the bride. But nonetheless, even though we can't count them, God surely did, and it's a particular people.

Now, how does that fit with this statement? Not willing, unwilling,

God is unwilling that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So sometimes in the interpretation of this verse, noting the beloved and noting the long -suffering toward us and so on and so forth, the interpretation is given, well, when you see those being addressed, the any and the all are referring to the group that is being focused on, meaning the church, meaning the beloved.

It's the closest antecedent to what is being used there as far as any goes, right?

Yes. Toward us. Yes. Couldn't you even go back to the beginning of the book on who he's talking to?

And in verse one, he says, he talks about those that have obtained like precious faith.

Right, so that is, I think, a very common interpretation amongst those who hold to a

Calvinistic understanding of salvation, a monergistic, you know, it's a single work of God that saves.

It's not some sort of cooperation where God does his best and then expects us to jump in at some point.

I had an evangelism class when I was in college. They were very much not Calvinistic.

And we were informed by the professor that our job in evangelism was to help bring down the barriers and the walls in people's lives, which were, you know, different for each person.

Whatever barriers or walls toward God in their lives, we were to help lower those to the point where it was low enough for the

Holy Spirit to be able to jump over, okay. So that would be a good definition of synergism, okay, where, you know, it's gotta be a ticks two to tango.

Cooperate, you gotta cooperate here. Versus a monergistic understanding of salvation, which I think is actually sustained by the biblical witness.

So in this case, we see that there is a willingness of God, an unwillingness of God that any should perish, but all should come to repentance.

So the Calvinist is gonna say, well, the any and the all, obviously refers to the beloved, obviously refers to the us of the church.

Now, I think given that, and there's more to explore there, so we can come back to that. But given that, backing out just a little bit, when we see the concern, what's the concern?

Why hasn't the judgment come to pass? Where is this cataclysmic judgment? You know, is this going to happen or not?

And look, you know, the heavens, verse seven, the heavens and the earth, which are now preserved by the same word, right?

The word that said that they're gonna fall is the same word which preserves them now, okay?

So we've gotta figure out why is the word of God preserving that which the word of God will bring down?

We're gonna have to think about that a little bit. Now, the heavens and the earth are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and the perdition of ungodly men.

So there's a day when ungodly men are going to be judged and go to hell, okay?

Now, given that, it's being stated, God is waiting, he is holding these things together until the day he lets it all come apart, he brings it to an end, and this also we see thematically, structurally fits with this expression, he is long -suffering, long -suffering toward us.

Is this the us of all humankind? Is it the us of Jews?

Is it the us of only the church? But nonetheless, we see long -suffering connected to the desire that none should perish, but all should come to repentance.

So these are biblical themes that we need to think about and how it fleshes out throughout the rest of the scripture. Given the context of the position that you take on when that judgment comes and who he's speaking to, would a different eschatology flavor how they read that passage there?

Yes, absolutely. So if we're reading this passage and we're looking at the illustration that is given, so the illustration that is given is that,

Peter loves to talk about the flood, so here we're looking at an illustration of the flood. So there's the mockery in verse three, scoffers come in the last days, and that's a key term, last days of what?

Right. Last days of what? Every single passage, every single book in the New Testament has a reference to the last days.

And all the apostles are just absolutely convinced. We are in the last days.

The ends of the ages have come upon us. John says, we're in the last hour. They are on the cusp of something that is big coming to an end.

They call it the age, the age, the age, the age, last days of the age. And the question is, what is that?

They weren't wrong, right? They were inspired by the Holy Spirit, right? God didn't lie.

He wasn't acting in a way of hyperbole, trying to scare people straight, like some environmentalist, right?

This is genuinely true, right? So it's the last days of something. And I think the testimony bears out, it's the last days of the

Old Covenant, right? A very important structure is coming to an end. A vital construct is about to fall down.

So at this point, he's answering the people that are saying, no, it's not, it's not the end. It's not the end, where is he?

After all, remember that Jesus, in the week he died, was talking about the end of the

Old Covenant. Temple gonna be destroyed, Jerusalem's gonna go down. He tells the high priest himself, you're gonna see that the son of man reigns from the right hand of God when the judgment comes down on you from heaven.

I mean, this is all connected to the validity of Christ. Is he a true prophet or a false prophet?

Is what he said really true or not? Hey, people are still talking about that today. But given Peter's particular context, right?

And so he says, knowing this first, the scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts and saying, where is the promise of his coming?

For since the fathers fell asleep, now there you go. So who are the fathers, right? He's not talking to Gentiles here or about Gentiles.

Patriarchs, right? All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. For this, they willfully forget that by the word of God, the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of water and in the water by which the world that then existed perished being flooded with water.

What world was that? Well, there was a world that existed and was functioning and God said, enough of that.

What was that? Pre -flood. Yeah, pre -flood, exactly. How many people mocked the preacher of righteousness,

Noah, who was building this ark for 100 some years and like,

Noah, dude, stop. It's not going to happen, right? It's not gonna come to an end, but it did.

And so Peter is just pointing out in a way not unlike his master. Have you not read?

When you say that all of this is just gonna continue on just like today's patriarchs, have you not read? God did away with an entire structure of the world, a whole way, but why?

Because of the violence, because of the wickedness, he just did away with it in his judgment. So you know he does this kind of thing.

So he says, in the same way, verse seven, the heavens and the earth, which are now preserved by the same word are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

And now he's invoking Isaiah, okay? Because he's reaching back to the prophecies of Isaiah about the old heaven and the earth passing away for a new heaven and earth.

An old structure gonna be laid aside for a new structure. In other words, the old covenant is gonna be done away with.

The authorities, the realities, again, the heavens, you have all of the sun, moon, and stars representative of authorities that are always being destroyed.

When Egypt goes down, the stars fall out of the sky and sun and moon fail and so on. And then things happen on earth.

Like when God brings judgment against a nation, like he melts mountains and then the islands move and nobody knows where anything is anymore.

Great apocalyptic metaphors that let you know what it's like when your world comes to an end, when judgment happens.

So the old heavens and the earth are gonna be laid aside, okay?

There's gonna be a judgment. There's going to be a judgment upon ungodly men. Now, verse eight, but beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the

Lord, one day is a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. So he's saying, look,

God's timing is not ours. It's perfect. Don't try to hold God to your man -shaped standards.

That's the thing that helps me. What I struggle with is looking at the word longsuffering and it's the sense of, how long are you gonna let this go on,

Lord? I mean, even in our day today, but then when you read verse eight, whoa, he's not like us, that with the

Lord, one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day, when you start to put those against each other, like my impatience has no bearing on his patience at all.

Yeah, and my sense of timing doesn't determine his justice. And that raises the question, when we see all the injustice around us, what are you waiting on?

What are you waiting on? And that's what this verse answers. He's not willing that any of you should perish.

And you brought up, he's not talking to Gentiles there, so he must be talking to the

Jews at that time. And he's talking about an impending judgment. So he's staying his judgment for the sake of his sheep.

Yes, and so he has a time, he's going to bring this judgment and he's not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance.

Now let's just think about this situation. If indeed Peter is talking about the bringing to an end and a cataclysmic judgment of the old covenant, which is gonna be centered, a judgment centered upon Jerusalem, because Jerusalem's gonna be surrounded by armies, it's gonna be overflowed by a sea of Gentiles, that mountain's gonna be cast into the sea, the temple, not one stone will be left upon another, it's all gonna be undone, just like God said it would in the

Old Testament when he was talking about the curses of the old covenant. If they rebelled against him, this is what's gonna happen.

So God's gonna keep his word. And again, think about the patriarchs, okay? Ever since the fathers, everything has been going on just like this.

Well, you know, it was Moses. How about a patriarch Moses, who wrote down the blessings and the cursings of the old covenant, in which

God said, if you keep on rebelling and keep on rebelling despite all my chastisement, ultimately,

I'm gonna bring this whole thing to a crashing end. And he said that with Moses, he even said it amongst the prophets about when they built the temple,

God said he would destroy the temple if they rebelled against him and so on and so forth. So he's not slack concerning his promise, right?

His timing's perfect. Timing's perfect. But he's long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance.

Now, with that in mind, let's just kind of step back a little bit and watch Jesus there on the eastern edge of the city, looking at Jerusalem and weeping.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I wanted to gather you to me like chicks to a mother hen, but you were not willing.

If only you had known the things which make for peace, but now, now judgment is upon you.

And you see him weeping over Jerusalem. And I think in that picture, in that moment, we have the actual expression of our

Lord that Peter is talking about here, about the character of God and the nature of God. I understand the

Calvinist instinct of saying, well, this is about primarily monergistic soteriology.

We're saved by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone. I heartily agree. I heartily agree.

But I think we're missing something if we reduce it to only a question about definite atonement. Yeah, because we're pulling it out of its, where it's landing in history, right?

Like we're - Sure. And a lot of that might come down to those reformed guys eschatology as well.

It may, and I think it does touch on definite atonement. I think - Oh yeah, for sure. Definitely needs to have a discussion at this verse.

Right. But again, it does also pertain to that other interpretation of this verse, which talks about the difference between God's decretive will or his secret will and his revealed will or permissive will.

In other words, God is not some rudimentary God, right? But he is beyond our capacity to comprehend, although he reveals himself in a way we may understand.

So we understand that God is sovereign. We understand he has all power and nobody can stay his hand and say to him, what have you done?

He gets to do whatever he wants to do and all he wants to do is good. And we see in the will of God, his revealed will, his, you know, people say,

I don't know what the will of God is. Well, you don't know what his secret will is, but you do know what the will of God is if you just read the Bible. He says, do not commit adultery.

That's his will. Yeah, there you go. He just expressed his will. And do you know what? People commit adultery all over the place.

Does that mean God is weak and broken and can't control things? Absolutely not.

It means we are. It means we are, exactly. And in his patience and in his long suffering, he is bringing to pass his will of decree that is unfailing and he will save to the uttermost all those whom he has given to his son.

And so he's also in his will, his revealed will, not only did he say, do not commit adultery, he also said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, the time is fulfilled, repent and believe in the gospel.

Right, that is also his will revealed. It is God's will that you repent of your sins and believe in the good news of his son,

Jesus Christ. That is his, that is his revealed will. That is God's will for you. I'm not saying I know the secret counsels of God.

You know, I'm with Spurgeon on this. I don't know who the elect are. It's not like God, you know, stamped an

E on their backs and I can pull up their shirt tails and see who's who. But I do know what the will of God is that any and all

I can say to them, God's will for you is that you would repent of your sins and trust in Jesus Christ.

And I think part of that goes to the discussion. It says he's not willing that any should perish.

And oftentimes Calvinists do go to that limited atonement, which this sounds like such a negative term.

It's limited, it's gotta be a small number. But then in what you just brought up, his long suffering, his patience, his weeping over the children of Jerusalem and wanting to call them his patients and waiting to judge.

We see some of his character. And I think one of the issues is there's somewhat of a false dichotomy.

You talked about his secret will. There's terms thrown around like predestination or a double predestination.

If he chooses who's going to heaven, then he's choosing who goes to hell. And so he must be actively keeping people out.

And I think one of the errors there is the error of equal ultimacy, where God is on both sides in the saving and in the condemnation.

He's actively keeping people out of heaven and bringing people into heaven. But I don't think that that's the way that the scripture talks about such things.

So one favorite verse is John 3 .16, and everyone knows that. And interesting, it uses that word perish.

For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son that none shall perish, but all the believing shall have everlasting life.

But then if you continue on from there, he says more than that. He says, they shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son.

And this is similar to Romans 1 .28. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge

God, he gave them up. So he's not actively keeping people out.

But on the flip side, his action in salvation is very much involved. He's very much using his power because of his love to save people.

So when we look at Colossians 1 .13 and 14, he has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son.

Those are active type of words versus that passive kind of, they're already in condemnation.

He's not actively keeping them out as if they would be on their way to heaven, except for he's keeping them out.

And then Romans 8 .29 and 30, for those that he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

And these whom he predestined, he also called. And those whom he called, he also justified.

And these whom he justified, he also glorified. So he's very active in his love. But when he talks about his condemnation, it's not like this kind of active rejection and he's doing things to keep people out of heaven.

I think what you're pointing to is there's a lot of category errors that occur when people begin to think about salvation and coming to the

Lord. And the category error most often assumed that people fail to actually analyze is the myth of neutrality, where there's the idea of all men are basically neutral and in the middle.

And if anyone was going to say that God unfailingly draws, elects and predestines and calls and draws a people to salvation, then that must mean that he must actively turn people's hearts away from him, from their neutral position where they would be open to him.

But now he pushes them away so that things can be balanced or something. But in the scripture, and this is interesting you bring this up because I was talking to a young man who came by our parking lot the other day whose name is

Raz and we had a good conversation. But he kept on bringing up people that don't exist. His concern with Christianity was that all these people who wanted to come into Christianity, who wanted to come to Christ, that were kept out.

And that's the contradiction that he just could not believe in Christianity fully because of these people who wanted to come in but were being kept out.

So they wanna be Christians but God's not letting them because they're monks in a faraway country or innocent pagans in a jungle somewhere or homosexuals who love

Jesus but are being kept out because of category issues. And it's like, hey, look, these people don't exist.

This is where this discussion that we're having now about the nature of election versus reprobation versus, this is based upon the doctrine of total depravity wherein the scripture tells us there is an unrighteous, no, not one.

There is none who understands. There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside. They've together become unprofitable. With their tongues, they practice deceit.

The poison of ass was under their lips. They do not know the truth. Their feet are swift to run to evil.

They shed innocent blood. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Like this is the condition of man and the law of God is imposed upon all men so that all are without excuse.

We are 100 % thoroughly, totally guilty. And we're all given in the creation, in the image of God, all that we need to know about who

God is, but we suppress the truth and unrighteousness. Anybody who says, I need more evidence before I can believe in God, lying.

You have all the evidence you need to believe in God. You're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. With all that in mind, that's why we rejoice in God's active choosing and calling and enlivening and saving because he has to do it.

It has to be him reaching in and grabbing us and bringing us out. That's just grace. That's just mercy.

That's amazing. At the same time, when God hardens Pharaoh's heart, that's justice.

It's active too. Yeah, that's active too. But it's not an equivalent type of action.

And it is absolutely just. When a man wants to reject

God, destroy the things that God made, be actively, and again, we're all made. We're all born in this depravity.

We're born in sin. We are thoroughly depraved, not as bad as we possibly could be thanks to the restraining grace of God, but indeed we are totally depraved.

And when we consistently rage against God, reject God, and embrace sin and embrace rebellion, and when

God says amen, and in his hardening of our hearts, pushes us in ways to accomplish his will and bring about his glory in another fashion, he also gets praise for that.

And he's given us what we want. Right, we are, we're not, like we were talking about, not neutral.

We're wanting those things that he's, Pharaoh was hardened and he liked it. Yeah. It's not that he repented and was letting them go.

He was fearful for his life. So God hardened his heart so he would relent.

And ultimately his purposes were accomplished by that. Yes. So in this case, when there's these classic conversations that run all the way back to the canons of Dort and so on and so forth, when they're talking about trying to figure out is it from eternity past to God, you know, choose this group, you know, elected them to salvation, also choose this, actively choose this group, you're reprobate, you're definitely not going to be saved, double predestination, the superlapsarian position, versus I choose this group to be saved, they're going to come to faith through my son and I'm just going to pass over the rest, but not actively decree anything about them.

This is the inferlapsarian position. And again, throughout all of the reformed confessions, whatever they are, they always take the inferlapsarian, the softer position of God passing over and not actively.

And so then we have to square that and say, well, what does the Bible say? You know, God's made everything, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You know, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And so again, there are some mysteries involved here. In fact, in Romans nine, the objection comes, well, why does

God still find fault? Who can resist his will? And that is exactly the objection that everybody makes about these doctrines.

And Paul simply says, who do you think you are? And so in other words, welcome to mystery, right?

You are a creature, he is creator, he gets to do things in this way and what he does is definitionally righteous and good and we need to be content with coming up to the edge of a grand vista and finding a fence that says, don't go beyond this point.

This far and no further. And everybody who's ever climbed over that fence so they get a better view, ends up falling off a ledge.

And we just need to be satisfied. With mystery. With mystery, not use it as excuse and cover up difficult things or hard things that we're meant to explore.

But there are places in the Bible that says, hey, this is mystery and we need to rejoice in that. That that fence is there.

Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get as far probably. Do you think there's also could be some discussion about, so I know people who will affirm his sovereignty.

He's in control of all things that will go to that verse and say, see, he's not willing that any should perish.

But then in using scripture to interpret scripture, if we push that out, he's not willing that any should perish.

First in verse seven, he just said that this destruction was set aside for ungodly men.

So apparently he's willing that they should perish. But also if he's not willing that any should perish, and yet, in fact, some people do perish, then can his plans be thwarted?

Because it's not his plan that any should perish. And yet we still see that happening. Comes back to his decretive will and his revealed will.

His secret will and his revealed will. In which he also, he's unwilling that any should commit murder. The fact that that happens doesn't mean that God is no longer sovereign, right?

It's the same kind of level of understanding here. So again, this is pointing to not only the just character of God, that he would bring an end to an ungodly structure, and he would judge wicked men.

Praise be to God because he's holy and he's just. But also at the very same time, in answering the question of why is this taking so long, we're also praising

God that he's so long -suffering and he's patient and he's merciful and gracious. So in this way, it's like a win -win -win -win in worshiping and praising to God.

So will we throw the infilapsarian and superlapsarian debate into the mystery realm? Is that where you're heading towards?

I really think so. I think that, again, we are to strive.

I mean, again, it's the glory of God to conceal a matter. It's the glory of kings to search out a matter. We thank God for the way in which he compels us to those studies of riches and so on and so forth.

But at some level where the scripture is silent, we need to fill that silence with submissive praise and worship of God and not go beyond the scripture where, again, where we have no support to be.

There's just been so many instances, so many examples of people saying, well, if this is true and this is true and this is true, well, then it has to be this way.

And then they end up in very poor positions. And I would say that there is a coherence to all of the truths of the word of God, and it's not in my head, right?

It's in Christ. And so I wanna learn from the word of God, and I wanna see how it all fits together in the person and work in the light of Jesus Christ.

But again, there's a temptation into rationalism to try to explain all these difficult things.

Okay. Well, I think we've wrapped up that discussion for today. So Michael, what are we thankful for? I'm thankful for breakfast diners.

I really enjoy a good breakfast diner where there is constant coffee and good fried eggs and biscuits and gravy and all manner of breakfast meats and opportunity to sit with others in fellowship and rejoice around the truth of God.

And it's just been a constant drumbeat in my life. I'm thankful. Can you still get some of those breakfast meats for under a dollar a pop, under a dollar a piece?

Or are we looking at super inflated prices where we're handing out bills for each one of those? Yeah, if I am paying for them very inexpensively,

I'm not sure if I wanna eat them. Kyle, what about you? I'm thankful for the encouragement of fathers, my heavenly father primarily.

He is always there when I seek after him to give me encouragement. But for my earthly father,

I'm thankful for my dad, who I can go to with questions, problems, ask him for prayer, and he is faithful to do that on my behalf.

So for fathers. Chris? I'm thankful for the church triumphant.

And obviously that's only through Christ and what he did and the Holy Spirit, but it's nice to be part of a church that is joyful.

And even though we face persecution and that church faces persecution around the world, we know the direction we're going.

Amen. The Lord has blessed me with a wonderful bride. I am thankful for Heather and all that she does while we're here doing this and having our fun, drinking our coffee, having our debates here, and she's at home worn out with boys.

And I know why she's worn out, it's because of those boys. But it's a good tired to have, it's a good tired feeling to have.

But I'm very thankful that he gave me her and that she's the one that has batten down the hatches while I'm away.

And when I come home, she is joyous. And it's a happy home to walk into, right?

It's not a home that is ever depressed or whiny or selfish.

Like that woman is all about what she's supposed to be doing and pleasing the

Lord. And I'm thankful for her. And that wraps it up for today. We are very thankful for our listeners and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Have You Not Read.