December 18, 2003

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:01

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and red white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr.

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White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

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United States it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. I remembered

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I guess the last full day on the cruise when Steve Camp did his concert in the in the big theater there at the front of the ship and he did that with the the track and so that that started all off and I was looking around at all the

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Prasapala Gion folks the geeks that hang around in our chat channel like the 41 some odd people at the moment and as soon as it started everybody's looking at each other and right when

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Rich comes in everybody's looking at each other and we're all mouthing live from the desert metropolis of Phoenix Arizona and then we all freaked out when at the end of the song

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Steve changed the lyrics and added Alpha Omega Ministries in to run to the battle it was great welcome to the dividing line yes it has been a long time and yes we have a lot of things to talk about today and I know there are a number of you sitting there who who have raised your blood pressure by by manifold multitudes of times over the past couple of days especially on Tuesday evening and Tuesday afternoon as you listen to the first hour of the

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Bible Answer Man broadcast I know I've been getting the emails I've been seeing them I've seen the web boards out there where the topic of conversation is is all the same thing and and so I know you're gonna want to call in today and that's fine you know the number 877 -753 -3341 and I do want to talk about some of those things by the way for those of you who are sitting around at the main questions

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I have gotten over the course the last couple days is all right do they ever answer the biblical questions does does

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George Bryson ever give you a direct answer to any question you asked of him outside of saying read the book which by the way is an eight -and -a -half by 11

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Kinko's tape bound self -published project and I'm saying that with all honesty because I don't know how many publishers would actually touch his material that's what it was and by the way some of you have asked why didn't she respond anything his book

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I wasn't even offered a copy he brought two in gave one to Hank Hank had a manuscript gave one to Hank held one for himself

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I was no never even would you like to look at it would you like to have a copy so you can look through it during the program nothing zip zero nada

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I never got to look within the hallowed pages of the dark side of Calvinism so I I would love to have looked up Genesis 50

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John 6 you know provided some interaction wasn't offered the opportunity to sell so but wasn't much

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I could do about but do I ever get an answer to a biblical question in today's program no three hours and was left with nothing

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George would you know we'd to the callers today one's going to be

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I'd like to ask both men to tell me who decides who's going to be who's going to be saved and give me biblical passages

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I did John 6 George rambled around as as George rambles around a lot and finally got around to trying to respond something to John 6 but eventually turned the order which is found the gospel of John which you see in numerous passages in the gospel of John such as in John chapter 8 when

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Jesus is talking about the the subject of who is going to believe in him and why people do not hear him so on and so forth when when that particular issue came up he starts talking about how well you know he's been studying that recently and and he's been going through that and you know some of Jane Johnny 43 why do you not understand what

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I'm saying it is because you cannot hear my word and he goes on to talk about to you know he that is of God hears the words of God for this reason you do not hear them because you are not of God I pointed things out he reversed the order

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I said where did Jesus say that and the response is the same thing you got yesterday when I mentioned

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Genesis 50 read the book read the book read the book that I won't offer to you but read the book so no we got no answers just as 50 when unanswered

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Isaiah 10 when unanswered acts for when unanswered John 6 when answered Romans 9 there's a caller today who will ask about Romans 9

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I was amazed at what I heard about that we will be told today that the statement of Romans chapter 9 verse 20 who are you a man who answers back to God is a rebuke of Calvinism but then again the answer to everything for George Bryson was you get he'd be asked question so George what do you think about that passage well

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Hank you know the problem with Calvinism is this I mean that's how everything single thing started there's no positive exegesis of anything it's not going to be offered so if you're sitting around waiting your blood pressure is way high you've been waiting all this time when are we going to hear the biblical responses don't even bother just go ahead and and let it all out all out now relax it's not going to happen but should that have surprised you anyone who listened to the

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Bryson debate listen to the cross -examination of George on John 6 knew this was going to happen anyways the only thing that was unusual to me the only thing that surprised me was how completely one -sided the the questioning was on the part of the entire entire situation it wasn't just two -on -one is more like three -on -one when you think about it but it was it was very clear that that the issue of biblical exegesis was not going to be the foundation of discussion

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I wish it had been I tried to but the very fact that I tried to and it was so very clear that no one else want to go there may in fact be the single most positive elements of what took place there is that one side very clearly bases its beliefs upon the exegesis scripture the other side says they do but then when you ask them to demonstrate that you get absolutely positively nothing in response that is actually based upon the text so that really shouldn't surprise us but that was actually day number 18 of a 19 -day trip and so much took place during that time of briefly very very briefly yesterday

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I just do a little something up on the blog just to let people know that things had things had gone well and and to thank a few folks that was that was just a small portion of a very long trip long not long in a sense of bad long though I must admit

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I had to fly from Orlando to to Burbank and I had to go through Phoenix and that was really hard I I want to go home

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I'm I am not a big traveler that's not my thing you know some people just thrive on that I do not and it was it was tough landing at Sky Harbor and then having to not leave another plane and fly off to Burbank but it was it was definitely worth worth time to do so obviously as most you know we went down to Tampa Florida the area around Tampa ministered in a church there in the

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Tampa area and then the Wednesday following that wonderful time Steve camp and I ministered for a little over two hours in a church in Melbourne Florida I had a wonderful time there

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I love getting a chance to speak after Steve has sung and and we work together really really well and I had a great time with the folks there very very encouraging to to Steve and I and then of course

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Friday night the 5th of December was the the debate in Tampa it was a it was a stressful day let's let's be honest about it there was there's just so many details that most folks if you walk into a debate 10 minutes before it starts and sit down and listen to that debate you have no concept of what has happened prior to that debate taking place and just simply the number of details especially when you have people coming in from all over the planet just basically almost that want to be a part of this and want to see this just just a tremendous number of details and and we let's face it we had some problems with the facilities as far as getting things put together at one point it looked like the entire management of the hotel showed up to put out chairs and when the whole management the hotel shows up about chairs you know something got missed someplace along the lines and it wasn't us that missed it but we were really rushing around trying to get things put together at the last moment so we shouldn't have been having to do that but that's the way things work out sometimes you do everything you can to try to get folks to do what they need to do and you know the best laid plans of mice and men but folks jumped in man there was a

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Paul Skazafaba from and he says in Santa Fe now it's

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I I I don't want to embarrass him but dr. price from from Hawaii this is the second time that I've I've met

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Wally bolt one of our one of our all ops and channel ball his arm brilliant young man and I've never met anybody with a with a more willingness to just simply just simply dive in and serve and do whatever you have to do you know

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I mean you can just ask him to do almost anything and I was even thinking on the ship we needed someone to try to fight through the

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PowerPoint presentations for words from worship music during the Steve camp concert and who was up there doing it but but Paul price it was just he was helping with the book table and Paul Skazafaba jumped in to help set stuff up and there were there folks to just what can

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I do what can I do how can I how can I help it was just just so heartwarming to see that kind of thing and and that kind of attitude of servanthood and don't

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I'm not here to be served I'm here to serve that's just tremendously tremendously encouraging and I thank all of those who who demonstrated that attitude all the time of course nothing in Tampa would have happened without Mike and Saul Fallon and their constant constant work and the fact they have to put up with me all the time and poor saw has to put the fact that I don't eat

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Chinese and and I know that just it just hurts her deeply but she's put up with it anyways and so anyway the debate went on despite the fact that I don't know it wasn't 10 -15 minutes before the debate was supposed to start we still had no idea how we were going to get the sound to work properly on it because and in fact

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I haven't asked this question but Oh rich did we ever find that power supply to the to the sound board did did it appear anywhere yeah where was it that rich it was here so would you like to publicly apologize to the

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TSA would you like to publicly apologize to the TSA okay

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I publicly apologize to the hamburger flip I mean the the TSA for having rifled through our luggage and making me think that they actually lost our power supply when it was all my fault you know that was that was a that was a similar apology to Jerry Madatix apologizing for being unclear and what he actually was supposed to say is no

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Josephus didn't say that it was somebody else I was wrong but anyway we had we had quite the no attention to the man behind the curtain that's right it was

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I tell you we just had no idea how we get everything to work and it was it was just it was it was but we got to work and yes rich is continuing to work are the mp3s done

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I should have ready this afternoon had some interesting situations last night trying to get it all melded together but we've got a timeline of the of the program so I've got all the sound put together and sounds great good by the way and then here after the show today

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I can get you know get the equipment to use it again because it's being used right now for this yes that's true and then yeah now that we you know plug the soundboard back into the power supply that was here then we should have it ready and then the

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CDs and mp3s should be up there later this afternoon good excellent well anyway the even even

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Greg Stafford had a had a tremendous difficult time getting there I mean if it if it could go wrong it was going wrong in well getting home oh yeah poor guy

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I mean not only was his flight out Tampa canceled so he had to fly into Orlando and then take like a shuttle from Orlando to Tampa but then he then the hotel didn't give him his wake -up call the next morning so he missed his flight in the morning and it was just like I be able to do you know we

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I will I'm not gonna say a lot about the debate I want folks to be able to hear it first so people can call in and we can have decent conversation about some of the exegetical issues that were raised

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I obviously had mentioned on this program more than once that I felt that this was going to be the most challenging debate that I engaged in therefore

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I was I was prepared I had done a lot of thinking I had a a presentation that I felt was was the strongest against the position of the opponent that I was that I was taking on and as a result

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I think that the the the final result that was very good I think people find to be very useful debate the people who were there were very encouraged in their belief in the deity of Christ I do believe that we were able to establish that but the one thing that I I will say is is this

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I think it was 1993 maybe 94 when

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I first encountered this shadowy figure in the in the cyber world that eventually came to know as Greg Stafford and we have not had any personal interaction outside of you know exchanging a few you know public post and things like that maybe on an email list someplace it was originally on AOL and the fact that I have responded to him and my book on the

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Trinity he's responded my book in Trinity in his second edition of his book etc etc and it was it's always an interesting thing to put a face to the name and to discover that we're both human beings and we had a really good conversation afterwards and it was it was very very good along those lines and so as such

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I think it's gonna be a very useful useful debate to folks I think we may be able to have a future dialogues down the road as well

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I'd love to do something on soteriology in in that area almost all the discussion that takes place is is is on Christology and and Trinitarian theology

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I think something on on soteriology and the doctrine of salvation would be would be very very interesting but it was it was it was quite the the fascinating interaction

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I was I was very I will admit I was very proud that the second or third person in line to ask a question was my own son and I think his question was very very good and as a as a father

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I am I am proud of my kids and I was very proud that they would they would be sitting there listening with such and the only reason my daughter wasn't up there

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I'll be probably honest with you is that she volunteered to take care of kids during the first half of the debate so she didn't get to hear it she'll be 15 next month and so everybody just automatically assumes if you're a 14 15 year old girl that that's what you want to do she she helped take care of some of the young folks from the little kids from the group that had come for the for the cruise and for the debate and so she wasn't up there but it was it was very heartwarming for me to see my son asking a question actually based upon the specific subject debate which means they were listening you know

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I've seen a lot of kids out there that would be you know just totally bored of what dad does but the Lord's been very merciful to me and that came out along the cruise we got we got the debate done it was it was wonderful I want to thank

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Warren Smith for flying out there Warren's with us today as the day off and the first time he's been back over near the control board even though it's a mess over there for for quite some time and Warren flew out that day hey

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Warren thanks so get out of here anyway he flew out and and I even even helped the

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Dark Knight to listen to the debate via cell phone I upped my minutes on my cell phone and I want to thank

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Eddie Dalkour and his wife Tia they were there went on the cruise with us in fact Eddie was the only person with me at CRI over the past back on Tuesday he was sitting right next to me in the in the studio for the program and Eddie Eddie took care of keeping the cell phone on with the hands -free device so that the

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Dark Knight back here in Phoenix could listen to the listen to the entirety of the encounter and so on so forth so it was it was quite the the fascinating thing we got the debate done and the next day we headed for Orlando actually for Cape Canaveral got on the

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MS -Zondam headed out and the day before before the debate started

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I started coughing I started my sinuses started going and I ended up with a sinus infection and I managed to fight through it during the debate

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Mr. Stafford wasn't feeling real well either and then it just started getting worse and worse and it went straight down to my lungs used to this all the time haven't been sick for for a number of years that way but it happened this time so unfortunately the entire cruise

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I was just really out of it I eventually about halfway through the cruise bit the bullet went down saw the doctor and got some antibiotics but was coughing even last night

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I had to leave prayer meeting while the men were praying because I was having a coughing fit and so that made the cruise a little bit difficult thankfully we were in a beautiful cabin and I had a balcony

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I could look out so if you're gonna get sick at least that's that's a good place to to have to do so but what a wonderful group of folks we had on the cruise just just a tremendous group of folks getting to meet folks that we've seen in the chat channel so many times

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John Mark and and and dry and DRI I don't know if she says dry or dre but anyways just a neat folks that from all over the place and and I had met some before and then others hadn't met each other that I had met one of them and and it was just really neat we got lots and lots of great pictures

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Sam Shamoon was on board and we're talking about Islam and Sam just is so passionate about that subject and David King was on board and he just reported in channel that I probably gave the same stuff to him hey we're all passing it around I I'm I got it from Michael Fallon so this is we want to blame somebody let's just go ahead and pour it all in poor

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Mike he's used to it anyways he's been given the gift of being abused so let's just pour it on him but it was great

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Phil Johnson from grace to you with the same table with with David King and and Phil reported later that he he tried to use every single possible joke that he knows about Presbyterians and yet and yet David just has so much sanctification that he didn't even notice it and it was great getting to see people meeting each other and and Steve camp sitting at the table with with Larry and Debbie Vondra and with the

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Pierce's and and with Eddie D 'Alcor and his wife Tia and getting to hear the stories about Steve Camps getting his his dessert and he had ordered the fruit plate it said and I remember seeing this because in the in the in the cabin

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I was in we get to see the menu before other people were because we were sort of the top level there and it was really nice and I mean

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I'd never even had a window before so to have a balcony was just awesome but I had seen this option for a dessert fruit plate with cheese and I thought well that's that's that's interesting it just sort of some reason remembered it well that's what

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Steve Camp ordered and they bring him this plate and it has two little blocks teeny little bite -sized blocks of cheese and a grape and he's looking these other people are getting these big pieces of cake and all the rest of this stuff and so he's asking um could

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I could I have a little bit more and so that the guy goes he comes back and brings him two grapes

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Tia just lost it she just she just almost fell off of fell off of her chair laughing and just just fun stuff like that but everybody just had a had a wonderful time

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I at least I hope they did I sort of felt very badly I missed one of my speaking times because I just I was just flat on my back

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I was I was out out it was bad I didn't obviously feel overly overly good about my ability to speak simply because you know if you're constantly fighting the urge to cough it it takes you off your rhythm it takes you off your you know off your game basically it's difficult to speak real well so I did my best

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I hope somebody got something out of what I what I had to say the other speakers did fine

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Mike gender and Sam Shamoon stepped in and did some stuff and and of course you know Steve did music and just worship from Tommy there from the the

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Tampa Bay area it was it was great and we had a wonderful time and everybody I think was sort of sad to see it all in by the time we got to the at the end of the cruise but then of course

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I came back minister to Riverbend Community Church in Ormond Beach or Daytona Beach I'm not sure exactly where it's located but I stayed in in Ormond Beach and I had a wonderful time there spoke on John chapter 6 and and you know the

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Lord's really good I think all those of you who are involved in ministry know that this has happened for you it's happened for me many times

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I'll I'll have an assignment to us preach the Word of God to speak in a certain context and I'll just feel horrible beforehand

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I have a pounding headache or I'll be coughing and I was again coughing and and wheezing this past Sunday morning and we went into the service and and I couldn't sing along and that was that's really bothered me because I love singing and I and probably helped everybody else but I love saying and and I couldn't sing along or anything and I was really concerned because I had a 45 minute message to deliver and and I get up there and I preached from my my tungsten t3 and I had

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I had it I was speaking on John 6 and I spoke on John 6 many times before and so I just had opened the

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Greek text and they had never seen anyone preach from a palm pilot before but when

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I got up there I never I never had to stop I never had to take a drink I never coughed never even had to clear my throat the

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Lord was just a very very wonderful and in gracious in allowing me to speak both services to services in a row and hopefully the folks there were blessed in that afternoon flew across the

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United States to to Burbank and had a had a meeting I really can't go into some folks who know about it and know knew what it was about but I had a meeting on Monday that went went very well and that was was useful and then of course

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Tuesday was the the Bible Answer Man broadcast and so excuse me so that was that's sort of the outlines of what took place over the course of the past 18 days flew home yesterday morning 19 days actually flew home yesterday morning you know what it's like when you've been gone for nearly three weeks

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I have a pile of stuff sitting here in front of me that I have to get taken care of right away and you know just trying to catch up on all that but truly as I sat back thinking about everything that happened all the opportunities and of course all the discussion has been generated by the

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Bible Answer Man broadcast over the past couple of days I just just sit back and go man what what what an incredible opportunity to be involved with all these wonderful folks to get to address these issues of God's truth and and and I guess you know one thing

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I would say is is two neat things to two tremendously neat things first I can just simply trust the

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Lord of the result of all these things I can I can thank the Lord that I don't have to worry about you know there are certain people that no matter what no matter what happened on BAM even no matter what happened the

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Stafford debate no matter what happens in any context there are certain people that just simply don't like me and so I'm going to be a a bad person anyways

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I'm going to be a dumb person anyway so I can't those folks I don't even really give a second thought to I mean they're out there but it's like you know

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I can't worry about irrationality I don't have to worry about about that all I can simply trust the

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Lord is going to utilize whatever has happened to his glory I just simply try to do you know what the what the

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Lord would have me to do I try to direct people to the text of the Word of God I try to let the Word of God speak for itself and I can trust the

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Lord with the results of all that and that's a truly tremendous thing to be able to to be able to do the other thing of all the whole week you know as I as I look back

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I really and I mentioned to a number of folks that you know because I was sick pretty much during the whole whole cruise and I really had to start depending upon others as I look back over that it's my family that I that I think of the most as far as positive things and what

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I mean by that is you know my my lovely wife had helped to get folks to and from she works in the travel industry and so she even she even got almost our entire group from Phoenix on to a standby flight earlier about four hours earlier in fact they got home

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I don't know what about seven or eight hours earlier than they would have otherwise because she managed to get him on the standby flight but she she hung back along with one other couple just wouldn't been able make it anyways one way the other because they weren't there early enough but she hung back at everybody else on to the on the plane and hung back then her flight got canceled so she had to stay an extra day and then fly back the next day out of Orlando but you know just doing that kind of thing and making it easier on other folks and of course helping to take care of me bringing bringing food down from the

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Lido deck when I was in the in the cabin wasn't feeling well and stuff like that but especially as I would look across the dining room at the table where my kids were seated and how my son who's always been fairly quiet he's really coming into his own and he's right in the middle of theological conversations he would we'd have these theological talks and and you know he's attending it he's he's he's listening he's participating and I had the opportunity of baptizing him this past this past summer it's just just a tremendous thing and my daughter as well and I'll just say one thing and then we'll take take calls one night after my son had left the theological talk there was the discussion had started off on the purpose -driven life purpose -driven church stuff and then went into other things and at one point one of the pastors in the group and again this is after Josh had left was talking about how it's silly in many of our in many of our churches that we separate our children off from the more mature

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Christians they don't they don't get to interact with the older Christians so that they so that they don't have anyone to model their own walk after and the pastor then said this he said some long lines of and and maybe

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Michael Fallon can correct this because I remember looking right over at him after this was said the passion something along the lines of it's obvious that they don't do that Dr.

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White's church because you can engage either one of his children in almost any subject and interact with them as adults and I looked over at Mike and and and Mike got this funny look on his face and it's hard to do and on in by voice but he put his hands up to his head and and then maybe type of look like my head was swelling and I was gonna have trouble getting out the door when after that one and I just smiled and shook my head yes exactly right

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I just had some wonderful conversations with my kids and and I could trust them they're out just doing their own thing you know

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Lord's just really been gracious to me along those lines and it was it was a wonderful thing so that's what I take from the from the cruise especially is just how very much very much blessed

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I have been in regards to those things we have two callers online that means I think there's one I think there's one one other line available at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we'll be taking your calls right after this get online we'll talk to you after the break on your face under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort

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Christian teaching on this behavior in their book the same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal right for all who want to better understand the

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Bible's teaching on the subject explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

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Genesis Leviticus and Romans expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the

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Bible's message about homosexuality get your copy in the bookstore at almen .org

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answering those who claim that only the King James version is the Word of God James White in his book the

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King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

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Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and authorized version of 1611 you can order your copy of James White's book the

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King James only controversy by going to our website at www .almen

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.org what is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios no

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Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

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James White replies to Dr. Geisler but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply it is a defense of the very principles upon which the

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Protestant Reformation was founded indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and layman alike can appreciate

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James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism defines what the

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Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen but free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at www .almen

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.org yeah

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I want to sing along but I'm gonna save you all from that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one your calls here on the program today

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I thought for sure the phone lines will be melting down I think we have a full bank now but not as many as I expected

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I'm gonna start with Chris in Peoria Illinois because I think I know who Chris is hi Chris hey so you've been listening in huh yes

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I have I first just want to thank you for not singing along I do appreciate hey wait a minute

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I've heard you sing too but be careful I got something on you too you know yeah that's right hey you know my my call was with regard to the debate you had with George Bryson I haven't listened to the entire debate

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I listened to the beginning of it and when he was asked by Hank Hanegraaff about what exactly is the dark side of Calvinism he replied that it was the innate fatalism of the

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Calvinist theological system and I've had discussions in at school with with some friends of mine actually are both

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Calvinist and Arminian and whenever the discussion takes that then I one thing

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I've always replied to my Arminian friends are that if they grant God's exhaustive foreknowledge they cannot avoid the dark side of Calvinism either you know because once you grant exhaustive foreknowledge you've locked in determinism which is the exact thing the open thiefs have been saying yeah

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I essentially push them if they're going to try to push me up against the horns of fatalism

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I'll push them up against the you know the dilemma of open theism yeah I really anyone who's heard through the second

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I'm not sure if it came up today when I say today you know what you're supposed to do when you're in studio is even though it was all just one three -hour block and sort of melds together you're supposed to refer to the first hour is the first day and second hour is yesterday and you know that kind of thing and and on today's program

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I'm not sure it came up nearly as much as it did in the in the first two and it certainly took place a lot during the the off -air discussion and and what was most disturbing to me was the off -air discussion

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I've I'll be perfectly honest with you I'm not going to details but I have been in that studio probably a dozen times now on various sundry topics over the years and certainly a dozen hours if not a dozen times and in all that time

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I had never experienced the kind of tense atmosphere that I experienced during that particular program especially when it came to that particular issue when

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I tried to push exactly what you just said when I tried to ask George Bryson how

37:14

God has knowledge of the future he says he does he says he has exhaustive knowledge how well

37:20

George's only response is because these omniscience and you and I both know that's not an answer to the question and he thinks it is he honestly does think it is

37:30

George has zero theological training he feels he can redefine any term no matter how many centuries it's been used by theologians to discuss the issues he can redefine any one of them he feels that calling him a synergist is not only inaccurate but it's a derogatory right and when

37:48

I tried to press that issue I asked him what are you an open theist what Hank got very angry at me for asking him that question and I had to try to explain look

37:56

I've debated John Sanders on this subject and I don't think I didn't get a chance to say this but I don't think any of you have seriously listened to their criticism of their fellow

38:08

Armenians I couldn't use term Armenian either in regards this issue you know simply saying well just because and Hank use this illustration in the program the second hour well just because I know that someone that Sonny and Cher were married doesn't mean

38:24

I caused their marriage and talk about completely missing a category issue at this particular point in time we're talking about God's knowledge of the future if you had infallible knowledge in 1950 that Sonny and Cher would get married then if they didn't get married would your knowledge therefore be automatically falsified or do they have the freedom not to get married without falsifying your knowledge that's the issue

38:49

I mean it but I have to trust that the listeners hear that and when I press that during the breaks

38:56

I mean I I was very very disturbed at the kind of dismissive way in which my my objection was was was was well simply dismissed and so I did try it didn't go anywhere but I have to trust that the folks listening to that hear that and that they recognize that no meaningful answer is forthcoming that point that if God has exhaustive knowledge of future events then either events took place the way they did because God has a purpose in them happening that way he has a decree or fate just simply threw it out there and somehow

39:31

God happened to win in the end and therefore why would he be glorified in that and and it just did not seem that that whole issue has even been thought of by by the non -reformed participants and it was participants that was not a debate between myself and George Bryson and anyway shape or form you know one one additional question

39:50

I ask them is because I understand the tack you're taking there's all ask them in what sense am

39:55

I free to choose differently than what God knows I will choose and not only so I mean I even under their own definition it seems that they have they're going to have difficulty with the true definition of freedom because the question

40:07

I always ask is am I free to choose differently than God knows how I will choose and the answer of course is no

40:15

I mean if if if he already knows exactly how I will choose then the future is locked in you have a determinism and even their appeal to God's foreknowledge of my choice does not rescue them from the dilemma of the determinism that's already locked in and I always ask him am

40:33

I free to choose differently well and then the question becomes if you know really the problem they end up having is they're trying to assert a freedom on the same level as God's freedom and and they their system won't allow it and when they want to present this concept of freedom what they're trying to create is autonomy but there is just simply no no meaningful ground upon which to grant to God exhaustive divine knowledge of the future unless you're then willing to say yes

41:02

God knows exactly how the future simply because the future exists outside of his control and he just happens to win in the end that's just all there is to it you can't give him any honor and glory because it was fate that determined the form of that time anyways it was

41:17

James did you go to the cross I know that again I guess the beginning of it and you mentioned the

41:22

Joseph yes you mentioned Isaiah 10 and acts for I think that the preeminent example of the sovereignty of God in the in this whole discussion is the cross

41:34

I very explicitly is it was God the author of the cross believe me I I tried over and over again explain to me these passages explain acts 427 so I read acts 427 to 28 here's the words in fact what

41:50

I did the beginning of the last hour which you said you didn't get a chance to hear was was I even turned George's example

41:55

I said let's go back to your rapist example did God the Father lay all the sins of that rapist upon Christ that was part of the

42:03

Atonement issue and then we went to X we talked about X chapter 4 again but no answer to the biblical text was ever forthcoming from any of my opponents plural in that debate it just it's simply and during one of the breaks

42:18

I said guys I am a Calvinist because of the exegesis of the text of Scripture it's not

42:23

I don't start with a philosophy and then bring it to Scripture I'm forced to this position by a text of Scripture so I have to go the

42:30

Bible well we need to find our terms first well the very first question that was asked of me from Calvin was was the final final final conclusion of all the process of exegesis and everything else here's the final conclusion let's start there if we're trying to define things let's start where we derived it from the issue is scriptural that's where you need to go but I wasn't allowed to take it there but I think that that was very very clearly communicated through the course of the entirety of the debate and it will be today as well have you have you spoken to either of them since then no no we had a two -hour

43:04

I had stayed way up near Magic Mountain up in the north north north part of the of the of LA there and so you know

43:10

I was on the opposite side of things I was a two -hour drive from from getting back and my flight was early in the morning so we got out of there by about 615 or so probably after it was all over with so no there was there's really no discussion just shook

43:25

Hank's hand shook a George's hand talked to some folks from the staff there and and that we had to leave so that's what we did so actually that I spent most of the day with Phil the day before okay

43:39

I was I was a grace to you the day before and what a beautiful facility it was it was wonderful all righty guys

43:45

Chris thanks for calling all right god bless yeah eight seven seven seven five three three three four one not absolutely locked into a 60 -minute time frame today so if you're trying to get in and can't keep trying let's go ahead and talk with Aaron hello

44:00

Aaron okay hello yeah you're in the background can you hear me okay I can hear you all right um

44:08

I want to talk about the first hour of the BAM program which I got into a little scuffle with but to summarize there were there were a few points where it it made it seem to he seemed to Bryson seemed to put you on the defensive in some way where it almost sounded like you were rejecting some claims of Calvinism around the beginning there was he made a claim that you are not a pre double predestinationist and he said well but conclusively you'd have to be you never responded that so I don't know if you are or not no no and actually what you need to understand what's going on and and and I'm sorry that you were confused by it

44:45

I did not have an opportunity of being involved in the preparation of this program it was fairly clear that there was a there was a direction that those in charge wanted to go there was a list of questions and the very first question was not why do you believe what you believe would you like to define what you believe the very first question was a quotation from Calvin from a section of Calvin where obviously

45:10

Calvin has presented reams of argumentation up to this point where there have been specific terms that have already been defined and used in a particular way and it was given to me without any context and when

45:23

I do you agree with this I said well yes here's how I understand what's being said there and then without a letting letting me elaborate on that Hank turned from me to George Bryson and takes that quote and quotes allegedly

45:40

RC Sproul saying I'm a hyper Calvinist accusing me of being a hyper Calvinist now now well not only confusing it was completely unfair and it was purposeful there's no question in my mind that it was anyone who hears it knows that it was and I don't think that's how you start a debate

45:55

I don't think that's how you how you begin anything that's supposed to be really meaningful from a biblical perspective to start at the end and then make an accusation

46:05

I'm a hyper Calvinist while talking to somebody else I mean that just backed you up didn't he I actually

46:10

I there are a number of times when when a question was thrown to George that I think the answer he gave was not the answer that anyone was expecting that he was going to give and I was appreciative of the fact that at least there at the beginning the the assertion that was being made

46:28

George said well actually no I would say that what James is saying is mainstream but then he went on to say that mainstream

46:36

Calvinist today dance around what Calvin actually said as if and this was one of the major league problems here as if Calvin is the one who created the system and he is the benchmark now

46:49

I know it's called Calvinism but anyone knows church history knows that Calvin was not the one who originated these issues that that Augustine and Pelagius had discussed a lot of stuff a long long time before this and etc etc so that that that was a at the misnomer even from the start and that for the vast majority of us the reason we believe what we believe is because of its biblical exegetical basis not because of some pre -commitment to a philosophical system and so I was not given the opportunity of pointing out even though I rushed in as quickly as I could it a few times the fact that in reality the the positive act of predestination which is based upon grace is specifically the choice to life reprobation is that term is used is not used in scripture in the same categories as predestination is because it's not based upon the same thing it's not based upon grace and mercy it's based upon justice in categories of of wrath and the demonstration of God's power and so the problem is that that my my one of my opponents feels

47:57

George Bryson feels that he can redefine any term just because he wants to in fact

48:02

I think you'll hear it today I'm trying to admit it's hard to remember which our things were in I don't remember yesterday so I think you'll hear it today probably toward the end of the program

48:12

I will use the term synergism and he will say that that's that's that's that's not a proper term that it doesn't describe his position in reality from a historical perspective it does but you see he's not bound to historical definitions and that's part of the

48:33

Calvary Chapel mindset is we don't have to worry about church history we have no connection to church history we don't have to use the language of church history to discuss these things we can just simply make make the terms up as we go well

48:44

I'm sorry for the wrap I said I thought that I said you did horribly yesterday which whenever I use that context

48:51

I mean if the handicap others have placed on you is like what you said in one of your previous dividing lines people think as long as they don't leave the debate drooling they've won with you that's what

49:02

I meant by horribly you know you didn't leave him drooling well I think this third hour a lot of folks you know are wondering you know when when the best when the best part of the program

49:15

I'd say this third hour that's going to air today Lord willing I think y 'all will enjoy it a little bit more than especially the first hour simply because there were two calls that came in and I think they'll be a little bit more like what some folks were hoping about and that is one caller called in and said upon what basis

49:35

I'd like to ask both participants upon what basis does

49:42

God choose who's going to be saved who decides who's going to be saved and give me scriptures that gave me the opportunity of walking through John 6 and George's response that was particularly how do

49:56

I describe it I don't know how to understand it I mean it just it went on for a long time but didn't say much and then

50:03

Romans 9 came up a caller asked about Romans 9 and when George Bryson said that Romans 920 who are you a man who answers back to God was a rebuke of Calvinism and then

50:15

I had the opportunity of commenting well I think finally we got a little bit where we want to be in the first hour it just took three hours to get there so hopefully when you can hear the whole thing all together the first hour will be somewhat ameliorated by the fact that once we once the callers got in the callers wanted scripture the callers want to hear from the

50:37

Bible and it's the callers who recognize one side was intent on getting there and one side was doing everything in its power to avoid getting there and in fact during one of the off -air points when

50:48

I was trying to talk about getting into the Bible I was told that to look we're doing a radio program here we need to define our terms and George Bryson told me most of the passages you raise our rabbit trails irrelevant anyways so think about all the passages that I raised in our debate with George Bryson and then realize that George felt their rabbit trails the second hour was much better it was a logical nightmare on their part because they couldn't answer the predestination question now they couldn't know and they they never will and it only gets worse in the third so thanks a lot

51:19

Aaron thanks for calling today ok all right god bless bye bye all right let me roll back here I managed to lose my connection to the web here let's talk with Jeff in southern

51:29

Jersey I think is the next one up on the dividing line hi Jeff hey James how are you doing good

51:34

I I was quite amused by the debate so far

51:39

I would have to say it's glad I'm very glad to have you back I've been looking forward this to as your favorite chatty

51:47

Kathy doll out there you know chatty Kathy never appeared I was I never heard divine rape in the sense of Shakespeare though we got

51:58

Shakespeare we got King Duncan we got we got the the stuff from Grudem but the chatty

52:06

Kathy thing divine rape thing only only Bryson brought up the I'm not sure Bryson did bring up the divine rape I'm gonna have to I'd have to review it to remember after three hours you start wondering you know exactly when things took place well good thing came up on the web last night of next time he mentions the possibility of evil just bring up the

52:24

Godhead well believe me believe me let me let me explain that to folks are listening at the end of yesterday's program

52:34

Hank went after his normal subject and he said well

52:40

God had to create the possibility of evil for love to exist and we took off our headphones and I looked at Hank and I said what

52:47

I said I said does that mean there was no love between the Father and the

52:53

Son in eternity before creation I said does that mean there's no gonna we're not gonna love God in eternity when there's no longer any possibility of evil and I didn't get an answer that I was told that that was absurd my response was absurd so I but everyone heard it

53:10

I mean that I have you're not the first person who has said to me since that that aired but what about the

53:18

Godhead itself what about how can you make love dependent upon the existence of evil that's that sounds like the

53:25

Book of Mormon which says you have to have have opposition for good to exist

53:30

I mean that's just simply not a philosophically sound let alone biblically originated position to take it all so I I did

53:39

I think people would be amazed if they could hear the discussions between what actually aired because that that to me was far more disturbing than what actually ended up getting on the air as to the the positions that were that were enumerated as well as quite simply to the to the way in which my attempt to get it biblical

54:01

I mean I asked George Bryson you know I think the product I said at one point

54:07

I think the discussion will be a whole lot better if we didn't constantly use terms like dancing around and twisting and dodging which is part and parcel of everything you said

54:15

I mean a Calvinist does all that stuff and he he rejected that says that's that's that's that's just the way it is that's why

54:22

Calvinist are and I'm offended you'd call me a synergist because he redefined synergism so it's like okay put my hands up in the air

54:30

I'm not an Arminian yeah I'm not I'm not an Arminian none of us are Arminians here it's just like wow you know

54:35

I have to answer for all of whatever Calvinism is but but the other side doesn't have to answer a question

54:42

I mean I can ask direct questions don't have to give an answer it's I wish I could have called in but it was my wife's birthday and that's a national holiday where I am okay it is she loves her birthday dearly and I love her dearly so well

54:57

I once you get as old as me the birthdays aren't nearly as important as they used to be mine was yesterday and I was flying home from well like I said yeah

55:07

I wish so anyhow well I'm glad you're enjoying it I hope today we'll be we'll sort of finish it all off and a quick question for you sure not to monopolize all your time but um you did address in the show and the first caller addressed it my big thing is

55:25

I would add regarding the open theism connection yes is that it's not just the foreknowledge but I think it's foreknowledge in combination with creation right like Bryson was having like a non -controlling sort of sovereignty which was

55:40

I just don't understand but you know oh he's sovereign but yeah he's sovereign but he has to respond to his creatures but he responds to his creatures eternally because he knew what they were going to do but his response does not determine their actions and I mean let's face it

55:57

George Bryson has not thought through these issues to any substantial level that's just simply that's not meant to be an attack that's just a fact

56:04

I don't know how anybody can disagree with it but once you posit creation along with foreknowledge right like I I mean just to kind of use a little philosophical terms if you can posit all possible worlds right some with evil all these different permutations

56:21

I don't God being omnipotent would have the ability to pick you know which world he wanted to create right right so he chose this one well and you know people will use something similar to that to posit the concept of middle knowledge which did come up during the conversations between between segments though I've never heard

56:41

Hank directly come out and promote the concept of middle knowledge but there's there's there's

56:48

I never got an answer to the question that that everyone is hearing but evidently

56:54

I failed to communicate and everyone else who's ever written the CRI or anything else fails to communicate and that is you still just simply saying

57:03

God is God has this knowledge does not explain how he has that knowledge and it was funny

57:10

Bryson would say that well Calvinist when you ask this question is to peel the mystery and yet when you asked how

57:15

God knows this what was what was George Bryson's response because he's God and he has all knowledge that's not an answer in the end of the day you're very much correct is that we can go you know if you have a philosophical structure that you're trying to fit into ahead of time like you said you know if A and B happened then

57:33

God is the author of evil you know you were correct and say you know let's go to Scripture and well

57:39

Scripture shows that well he has ordained everything and he's not responsible so and well he's he's responsible for getting glory for how he works all of it but he's not responsible for being evil in doing so so how are we going to create a philosophical representation of what

57:59

God has revealed in his word rather than avoid what God has said in his words so we can have a pre -existing philosophical presentation that to me is the fundamental difference between the two sides as we heard it though in the past few days absolutely right well good work hey thanks a lot all right thanks a lot god bless all right eight seven seven seven five three three three four one going a little long today wanted to get everybody in we can we can go as long as we got callers here at least till about 20 after but shorter if need be actually oh we need to take our one more call

58:32

I just realized my kids are waiting for me at school to pick me up but for them to pick them up today it's finals and they get out in two minutes and so I need to take one more call and then as soon as this calls over we will we will wrap it up so forget about the number just erase that from your memory let's go ahead and talk with Mike in New Jersey real quick hi

58:50

Mike hello Mike yeah going once for Mike going twice for Mike and I guess

58:58

New Jersey just fell off into the sea and the the Atlantic Ocean has just swallowed up say hi

59:06

Mike hi Mike I can hear you now I don't have a whole lot to say about the

59:16

Bible answer man webcast I sent an email at the other I don't know he was very effortlessly urging everybody in the chat room to send email

59:28

David King so I got my response today and it it was basically just garbage the nature of the debate requires that there's not agreement on the topic and we will ask that grace be extended to all the participants and especially to the limitations of the radio format and that kind of stuff and it's just like you know the presence of sound boards and headsets didn't make

59:48

Hank cut you off so Bryson could explain your position well there was definitely more than once that George Bryson was asked to define my position rather than have me define my position which

59:59

I George Bryson may be a nice man but I'm sorry I don't believe that George Bryson is an expert on this subject he does not have the exegetical capacity to engage the issue at any any meaningful level and that's just simply a fact

01:00:17

I think that our debate illustrated that very clearly and that's not meant to be you know disrespectful to him as an individual it is simply a fact and so I didn't appreciate it especially when you start the program by accusing me of being a hyper

01:00:34

Calvinist on the basis of RC Sproul and throw it to George Bryson to to expand upon that I felt that that was really really the wrong way to do it and I'll just I'll just close with this

01:00:48

Mike if you don't mind as I was leaving the program as I was driving down Alicia Parkway toward the

01:00:55

I -5 and if you live in LA know what I was headed for at that particular point in time and had to get all the way up to Valencia so you know

01:01:04

I had a long ways to go I called a few folks Phil Johnson from Grace Jew had already left me a message on my cell phone

01:01:10

I called him back and then I called back to the office here and I talked with Rich Pierce and the emails had already started coming in this of course remember this is two hours after programs over because we did the other two hours afterwards and so two and a half hours later emails were already coming in and I just wanted to read one of the emails that was sent in I responded to it as soon as I could when

01:01:32

I got back to the back to the hotel I won't give the name because I haven't been given permission to do so but I felt this sort of sort of summarized the first hour because I want to encourage

01:01:43

Mr. White I'm not sure if you'll ever receive this email but is my hope that he knows how many people stand behind his defense of the biblical message

01:01:50

I heard Mr. Ryan CRI the first night I was both encouraged you late and so very frustrated I was encouraged and lated by the adherence to scripture that mr.

01:01:57

white took it was obvious to both myself many listeners out there and those who oppose biblical election that scripture speaks loudly where they try to silence it it was also obvious mr.

01:02:07

white approach subject from a scriptural standpoint versus a reasoning standpoint his Genesis passage was never answered that was obvious he was double questioned and overrun that was obvious the questioning by Hank was different for James obviously biased than it was for mr.

01:02:21

Bryson yet through all of that mr. white kept his disposition stuck to his guns praise God I can only hope that tomorrow's broadcast holds answers to unanswered questions

01:02:29

I'll be in prayer as I know many others will and that was read to me as I was actually in fact ritual tell you how to ask him to stop for a second because I was merging on I five which is a take your life in your in your hands experience and then he finished reading it to me and so it it was not you know

01:02:47

I was wondering as I sat in the in the studio I wonder how this is being heard because you can't tell but I can't separate the between segment discussions from what's actually airing and so it's difficult for me to separate those out and just try to evaluate what's going out on the air but it was very clear to to everyone that fundamentally this was a debate between myself and two other participants and in reality three and that there was a specific direction that wanted to be taken and whatever that direction was it was not a biblical direction that I was the one desperately trying to get to go that way and the other side simply would not allow it to happen and so unfortunately all you hear is one side presenting scriptures asking us

01:03:34

I'd answer on the other side just simply starting their responses with well the problem with Calvinism is this and at one point

01:03:42

I even during the during the break said you know there are two positions being addressed here it might be nice if if we had both sides held the same standard and obviously the other side didn't believe that that's what they were doing but that was fairly obvious to everybody else so I have to hope that just as in the book is coming out in February from Multnomah with Dave Hunt I have to hope that the mere presentation the way in which the presentation is done will communicate as clearly as this program did the reality of the difference of the origin and source of these beliefs that one side is based upon believing that you have to go to the text first derive your belief from that that you're hearing

01:04:26

God as he speaks in his word and that you then answer questions based upon that and create your philosophy from that the other side creates its philosophy based upon whatever philosophical paradigm is adopted and then you go to the text of scripture and you create your exegesis or non exegesis there on that was clearly illustrated and I think that's gonna be very plain for folks so Mike thank you very much for calling in today thanks you to all of you for listening we're going a little bit longer than I remembered hey

01:04:55

I'm a dad and my kids are at school and they'd like me to come get them they're probably hungry I have a seventeen -year -old son he's always hungry so rather than let them stew at school after finals

01:05:06

I'm gonna go get him that's sort of how the dividing line is we are real folks doing real things and just amazed the

01:05:12

Lord gets to use us and I don't even know why he bothers with this most the time but he does and I thank you for listening to the dividing line we'll be back next

01:05:20

Tuesday the 23rd of December and I think that'll be in the evening yes it's in the evening

01:05:25

I get back in the rhythm here thanks for listening God bless 6029730318 or write us at P .O.

01:06:39

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01:06:47

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