December 18, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white. I.

Wonder how many of you who are on the cruise when you heard run to the battle starting there remembered guess the last full day on the cruise when Steve camp did his concert in the in the big theater there at the front of the ship and He did that with the the track and so that that started all off.

And I was looking around at all the process of Paula Guion folks the geeks that hang around in our chat channel like the 41 some odd people at the moment and As soon as it started everybody's looking at each other and right when rich comes in everybody's looking at each other and we're all mouthing live from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona.

And then we all freaked out when at the end of the song Steve changed the lyrics and added Alpha and Omega ministries in to run to the battle. It was great. Welcome to the dividing line. Yes, it has been a long time.

And yes, we have a lot of things to talk about today. And I know there are a number of you sitting there who who have raised your blood pressure by by manifold multitudes of times over the past couple of days, especially on Tuesday evening and Tuesday afternoon as you listened to the first hour of the Bible and swan broadcast.

I know I've been getting the emails. I've been seeing them. I've seen the web boards out there where the topic of conversation is is all the same thing and and. So I know you're going to want to call in today and that's fine.

You know the number eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And I do want to talk about some of those things. By the way for those of you who are sitting around it the main questions I have gotten Over and of course the last couple days is all right.

Do they ever? Answer the biblical questions. Does does George Bryson ever give you a direct answer to any question you asked of him? Outside of saying read the book which by the way is an eight and a half by eleven Kinko's tape bound self-published project.

And I'm saying that with all honesty because I don't know how many publishers would actually touch his material. That's what it was. And by the way, some of you have asked why didn't she respond anything his book?

I wasn't even offered a copy. He brought two in gave one to Hank. Hank had a manuscript gave one to Hank held one for himself. I was no never even. Would you like to look at it? Would you like to have a copy so you could look through it during the program?

Nothing. Zip zero nada. I never got to look within the hallowed pages of the dark side of Calvinism. So I I would love to have looked up Genesis 50. John 6, you know provided some interaction wasn't offered the opportunity to do so.

So but wasn't much I could do about but do I ever get an answer to a biblical question in today's program? No. Three hours and Was left with nothing. George would you know, we'd to the callers today one's going to be.

I'd like to ask both men to tell me who Decides who's going to be who's going to be saved and give me biblical passages. I did John 6. George rambled around as as George rambles around a lot and Finally got around to trying to respond something to John 6.

But eventually turned the order which has found the gospel of John. Which you see in numerous passages in the gospel of John such as in John chapter 8 when Jesus is is talking about the the subject of Who is going to believe in him and why people do not hear him?

So on and so forth when when that particular issue came up. He starts talking about how well, you know, he's been studying that recently and and he's been going through that and you know I was talking about Johnny 43.

Why do you not understand what I'm saying? It is because you cannot hear my word. And he goes on to talk about to you know. He that is of God hears the words of God for this reason you do not hear them because you are not of God.

I point these things out. He reversed the order and I said where did Jesus say that and the response was the same thing you got Yesterday when I mentioned Genesis 50 read the book read the book read the book that I won't offer to you.

But read the book. So no, we got no answers. Genesis 50 went unanswered. Isaiah 10 went unanswered. Acts 4 went unanswered. John 6 went unanswered Romans 9. There's a caller today who will ask about Romans 9.

I was amazed at what I heard about that. We will be told today. That the statement in Romans chapter 9 verse 20. Who are you a man who answers back to God is a rebuke of Calvinism but then again the answer to everything for George Bryson was you'd had he'd be asked question.

So George, what do you think about that passage? Well, Hank, you know the problem with Calvinism is this. I mean, that's how every single single thing started. There's no positive exegesis of anything.

It's not going to be offered. So if you're sitting around waiting your blood pressure is way high. You've been waiting all this time. When are we going to hear the biblical responses? Don't even bother just go ahead and and let it all out all out now relax.

It's not going to happen. But should that have surprised you anyone who listened to the Bryson debate? Listened to the cross-examination of George on John 6 knew this was going to happen. Anyways, the only thing that was unusual to me the only thing that surprised me was how completely one-sided The the questioning was on the part of the entire entire situation it wasn't just two on one it was more like three on one when you think about it, but It was it was very clear that that the issue of biblical exegesis was not going to be the foundation of discussion I wish it had been I tried to.

But the very fact that I tried to and it was so very clear that no one else wanted to go there May in fact be the single most positive elements of what took place. There is that one side very clearly Bases its beliefs upon the exegesis of Scripture the other side says they do but then when you ask them to demonstrate that You get absolutely Positively nothing in response that is actually based upon the text so that really shouldn't surprise us, but that was actually day number 18 of a 19 day trip and So much took place during that time of briefly very very briefly yesterday I just threw a little something up on the blog just to let people know that Things had things had gone well and and to thank a few folks.

That was that was just a small portion of a very long Trip long not long in a sense of bad long though I must admit I had to fly from Orlando to to Burbank and I had to go through Phoenix and that was really hard I I wanted to go home.

I am NOT a big traveler. That's not my thing. You know, some people just thrive on that I do not and it was it was tough landing at Sky Harbor and then having to not leave and get on another plane and fly off to Burbank, but It was it was definitely worth worth time to do.

So obviously as most of you know, we went down to Tampa Florida the area around Tampa Ministered in a church there in the Tampa area and then the Wednesday following that wonderful time Steve camp and I Ministered for a little over two hours in a church in Melbourne, Florida.

I had a wonderful time there. I love getting a chance to speak after Steve has sung and and we worked together really really well and Had a great time with the folks. They're very very encouraging to to Steve and I and Then of course Friday night the 5th of December was the the debate in Tampa.

It was a it was a stressful day. Let's let's be honest about it. There was there's just so many details and most folks If you walk into a debate ten minutes before it starts and sit down and listen to that debate you have no concept of what has happened prior to that debate taking place and Just simply the number of details especially when you have people coming in from all over the planet just basically almost That want to be a part of this and want to see this.

Just just a tremendous number of details and and we let's face it. We had some problems with the facilities as far as getting things put together. At one point it looked like the entire management of the hotel showed up to put out chairs.

And when the whole management of the hotel shows up about chairs. You know something got missed someplace along the lines and it wasn't us that missed it. But we were really rushing around trying to get things put together at the last moment.

We shouldn't have been having to do that. But that's the way things work out sometimes you do everything you can to try to get folks to do what they need to do. And you know The best laid plans of mice and them but folks jumped in man there was Paul Skazafaba from I think he says in Santa Fe now.

It's I I don't want to embarrass him, but dr. Price from from Hawaii. This is the second time that I've met Wally bolt one of our one of our all ops and channel Baltasar. Brilliant young man, and I've never met anybody With a with a more willingness to just simply just simply dive in and serve and do whatever You have to do you know I mean you can just ask him to do almost anything.

And I was even thinking on the ship we we needed someone to try to fight through the PowerPoint presentations for words from worship music during the Steve camp concert and Who was up there doing it, but but Paul price It was just he was helping with the book table and Paul Skazafaba jumped in to help Set stuff up, and there were there were folks to just what can I do?

What can I do? How can I? How can I help it was just just so heartwarming to see that kind of thing and and That kind of attitude of servanthood, and don't I'm not here to be served. I'm here to serve.

That's just tremendously tremendously Encouraging and I thank all of those who who demonstrated that attitude all the time of course. Nothing in Tampa would have happened without Mike and Saul Fallon and their constant Constant work and the fact they have to put up with me all the time and poor saw has to put the fact that I Don't eat Chinese, and and I know that just it just hurts her deeply, but she's put up with it anyways and so anyway.

The debate went on despite the fact That I don't know it wasn't 10 -15 minutes before the debate was supposed to start we still had no idea how we were going to get the sound to work properly on it because And in fact I haven't asked this question, but oh rich.

Did we ever find that power supply to the to the sound board did did it appear anywhere? Yeah. We're where was it that rich it was here, so would you like to publicly apologize to the TSA? Would you like to publicly apologize to the TSA?

Okay, I publicly apologize to the hamburger flip. I mean the the TSA. For having rifled through our luggage and making me think that Lost our power supply when it was all my fault.

I Hear your you know that was that was a that was a similar apology to Jerry Madetik. Apologizing for being unclear. And what he actually was supposed to say is no Josephus didn't say that it was somebody else.

I was wrong, but anyway we had we. He had quite the no attention to the man behind the curtain. That's right. It was I tell you. We just had no idea how we were get everything to work. And it was it was just it was it was but we got to work, and yes rich is continuing to work.

Are the mp3s done I? Should have ready this afternoon.

Had some interesting Situations last night trying to get it all melded together, but we've got a timeline of the of the program so I've got all the sound put together and Sounds great good by the way and then here after the show today I can get you know get the equipment to use it again because it's being used right now for this.

Yes, that's true. Board back and then yeah now that we you know plug the soundboard back into the power supply that was here. Then we should have it ready and then the CDs and the mp3 should be up there later this afternoon.

Good excellent. Well anyway the.

Even even Greg Stafford had a had a tremendously difficult time getting there. I mean if it if it could go wrong it was going wrong in well getting home. Oh, yeah, poor guy. I mean not only was his flight out Tampa canceled.

So he had to fly into Orlando and then take like a shuttle from Orlando to Tampa. But then he then the hotel didn't give him his wake-up call the next morning. So he missed his flight in the morning, and it was just like I'd be able to be a little you know we Well, I'm not gonna say a lot about the debate.

I Want folks to be able to hear it first so people can call in and we can have decent conversations about some of the exegetical issues That were raised. I obviously had mentioned on this program more than once That I felt that this was going to be the most challenging debate that I engaged in.

Therefore I I was I was prepared. I had done a lot of thinking I had a presentation That I felt was was the strongest against the position of the opponent that I was that I was taking on and As a result, I think that the the the final result that was very good.

I think people will find to be very useful Debate so that people who were there were very encouraged in their belief in the deity of Christ. I do believe that we were able to establish that but the one thing that I will say is is this I?

Think it was 1993 maybe 94 When I first encountered This shadowy figure in the in the cyber world that eventually I came to know as Greg Stafford. And we have not had any personal interaction outside of you know exchanging a few you know public Posts and things like that may be on an email list someplace.

It was originally on AOL and the fact that I have responded to him and my book on the Trinity he's responded my book in Trinity and his second edition of his book, etc, etc, and It was it's always an interesting thing to put a face to the name and to discover that we're both human beings and we had a really good conversation afterwards and It was it was very very good along those lines.

And so as such I think it's going to be a very useful useful debate to folks I think we may be able to have a future dialogues Down the road as well. I'd love to do something on soteriology in in that area almost all the discussion that takes place is is Is on Christology and Trinitarian theology?

I think something on on Soteriology and the doctrine of salvation would be would be very very interesting, but it was it was it was quite the the fascinating interaction I was I was very I will admit I was very proud that the second or third person in line to ask a question was my own son.

And I think his question was very very good and as a as a father I am I am proud of my kids. And I was very proud that they would they would be sitting there listening with such. And the only reason my daughter wasn't up there I'll be probably honest with you is that she volunteered to take care of kids during the first half of the debate.

So she didn't get to hear it she'll be 15 next month and so. Everybody just automatically assumes if you're a 14 15 year old girl that that's what you want to do so she she helped take care of some of the young folks from the little kids from the group that had come for the for the crews and for the debate and So she wasn't up there, but it was it was very heartwarming for me to see my son asking a question.

Actually based upon the specific subject debate which means they were listening. You know, I've seen a lot of kids out there that would be you know Just totally bored at what dad does but the Lord's been very merciful to me and that came out along the cruise.

We got we got the debate done. It was it was wonderful. I want to thank Warren Smith for flying out there. Warren's with us today as the day off and The first time he's been back over near the control board, even though it's a mess over there For for quite some time and Warren flew out that day.

Hey Warren. Thanks. No get out of here. Anyway a Flew out and and I even even helped the Dark Knight to listen to the debate via cell phone. I upped my minutes on my cell phone and I want to thank Eddie Dalkour and his wife Tia.

They were there went on the cruise with us. In fact, Eddie was the only person with me at CRI Over the past back on Tuesday. He was sitting right next to me in the in the studio for the program and Eddie Eddie took care of keeping the cell phone on with the hands-free device so that the Dark Knight back here in Phoenix could listen to the Listen to the entirety of the encounter and so on so forth.

So it was it was quite the the the fascinating thing we got the debate done and The next day we headed for Orlando actually for Cape Canaveral got on the MS Dom Dom Headed out and the day before before the debate started.

I started coughing I started my sinuses started going and I ended up with a sinus infection and I managed to fight through it during the debate, mr. Stafford wasn't feeling real well either and Then it just started getting worse and worse and it Went straight down to my lungs used to this all the time haven't been sick for for a number of years that way.

But it happened this time. So unfortunately the entire cruise I was just really out of it. Eventually about halfway through the cruise bit the bullet went down saw the doctor and got some antibiotics, but Was coughing even last night.

I had to leave prayer meeting while the men were praying because I was having a coughing fit and So that made the cruise a little bit difficult. Thankfully. We were in a beautiful Cabin, and I had a balcony I could look out.

So if you're gonna get sick, at least that's that's a good place to To have to do so, but what a wonderful group of folks we had on the cruise just just a tremendous group of folks. Getting to meet folks that we've seen in the chat channel so many times.

John Mark and and and dry and Dr. I don't know if she says dry or dre but anyways Just the neat folks that from all over the place and and I had met some before and then others hadn't met each other that I had met one of them and and it was just really neat.

We got lots and lots of great pictures. Sam Shamoon was on board and we were talking about Islam and Sam just is so passionate about that subject and David King was on board and he just reported in channel that I probably gave the same stuff to him.

Hey, we were all passing it around. I'm I got it from Michael Fallon. So this is we if we want to blame somebody let's just go ahead and pour it all and poor Mike. He's used to it. Anyways He's been given the gift of being abused so let's just pour it on him, but It was great.

Phil Johnson from grace to you was at the same table with With David King and and Phil reported later that he he tried to use every single possible Joke that he knows about Presbyterians and yet and yet David just has so much sanctification that he didn't even notice it and it was great getting to see people meeting each other and and Steve camp sitting at the table with with Larry and Debbie Vondra and with the Pierce's and and with Eddie d 'Alcourt and his wife Tia and Getting to hear the stories about Steve camps getting his his dessert and he had ordered the fruit plate it said and I remember seeing this because in the in the in the Cabin I was in we get to see the menu before other people were because we were sort of in the Top level there and it was really nice.

And I mean, I never even had a window before so to have a balcony. But I had seen this option for a dessert fruit plate with cheese. And I thought no that's that's that's interesting. I just sort of some reason remembered it.

Well, that's what Steve camp ordered and they bring him this plate and it has two little blocks teeny little bite-sized blocks of cheese and a grape. And he's looking these other people are getting these big pieces of cake and all the rest of this stuff.

And so he's asking um could I could I have? A little bit more and so the the guy goes he comes back and brings him two grapes. Tia just lost it. She just she just almost fell off of Fell off of her chair laughing and just just fun stuff like that, but everybody just had a had a wonderful time I at least I hope they did.

I sort of felt very badly I missed one of my speaking times because I just I was just flat on my back I was I was out out. It was bad I didn't obviously feel overly Overly good about my ability to speak simply because You know if you're constantly fighting the urge to cough it it takes you off your rhythm it takes you off your You know off your game.

Basically, it's difficult to speak real well, so I did my best I hope somebody got something out of what I what I had to say the other speakers did fine Mike gender and Sam Shamoon stepped in and did some stuff and and of course you know Steve did music and Just Worship from Tommy there from the the Tampa Bay area.

It was it was great, and we had a wonderful time and Everybody I think was sort of sad to see it all in by the time We got to the at the end of the cruise, but then of course I came back Administered at Riverbend Community Church in Ormond Beach or Daytona Beach, I'm not sure exactly where it's located, but I stayed in in Ormond Beach, and I had a wonderful time there spoke on John chapter 6 and You know the Lord's really good, and I think all those of you who are involved in ministry know That this has happened for you.

It's it's happened for me many times. I'll I'll have an Assignment to us preach the Word of God to speak in a certain context, and I'll just feel horrible beforehand I have a pounding headache, or I'll be coughing and I was again coughing and wheezing this past Sunday morning and We went into the service and and I couldn't sing along and that was that's really bothered me because I love singing and I and Probably helped everybody else, but I love saying and and I couldn't sing along or anything now I was really concerned because I had a 45-minute message to deliver and and I get up there and I preached from my my tungsten t3 and I had I had it I was speaking on John 6 and I've spoken on John 6 many times before and So I just had opened the Greek text and they had never seen anyone Preach from a palm pilot before but when I got up there.

I never I never had to stop I never had to take a drink. I never coughed never even had to clear my throat the Lord was just very wonderful and in gracious in allowing me to speak both services two services in a row and Hopefully the folks there were blessed in that afternoon flew across the United States to to Burbank and Had a had a meeting.

I really can't go into some folks who know about it. No knew what it was about But I had a meeting on Monday That went went very well and That was was useful. And then of course Tuesday was the the Bible answer man broadcast and so Excuse me.

So that was that's sort of the outlines of what took place over the course of the past 18 days flew home yesterday morning 19 days actually Flew home yesterday morning. You know what? It's like when you've been gone for nearly three weeks I have a pile of stuff sitting here in front of me that I have to get taken care of right away and You know just trying to catch up on all that but truly as I sat back thinking about everything that happened all the opportunities and of course all the the discussion has been generated by the Bible answer man broadcast over the past couple of days I just just sit back and go man.

What what what an incredible opportunity to be Involved with all these wonderful folks to get to address these issues of God's truth. And and and I guess you know one thing I would say is is two neat things to two tremendously neat things first I can just simply trust the Lord with the result of all these things I Can I can thank the Lord that?

I don't have to worry about You Know There are certain people that no matter what no matter what happened on BAM Even no matter what happened in the Stafford debate no matter what happens in any context.

There's certain people that just simply don't like me, and so I'm going to be a a bad person. Anyways, I'm going to be a dumb person anyway, so I can't those folks I don't even really give a second thought to I mean they're out there, but it's like you know I can't worry about Irrationality.

I don't have to worry about about that all I can simply trust that the Lord is going to Utilize whatever has happened to his glory. I just simply try to do you know what the what the Lord would have me to do.

I try to direct people to the text of the Word of God. I try to let the Word of God speak for itself. And I can trust the Lord with the results of all that and that's a that's a truly Tremendous thing to be able to to be able to do the other thing of all the whole week.

You know as I as I look back I Really, and I mentioned to a number of folks that you know because I was sick pretty much during the whole whole cruise. And I really had to sort of depend upon others as I look back over that.

It's my family that I that I think of the most as far as positive things and what I mean by that is. You know my my lovely wife had helped to get folks to and from she works in the travel industry and so She even she even got almost our entire group from Phoenix on to a standby flight.

Earlier about four hours earlier and in fact they got home I don't know what about seven or eight hours earlier than they would have otherwise because she managed to get him on the standby flight. But she she hung back Along with one other couple just wouldn't been able to make it anyways one way or the other because they weren't there early enough.

But she hung back got everybody else onto the plane and hung back then her flight got canceled. So she had to stay an extra day and then fly back the next day out of Orlando. But you know just doing that kind of thing and making it easier on other folks and of course helping to take care of me bringing bringing food down from the Lido deck when I was in the in the Cabin wasn't feeling well and stuff like that but especially as I would look across the dining room at the table where my kids were seated and how.

My son who's who's always been fairly quiet. He's really coming into his own and he's right in the middle of the theological conversations. He would we'd have these theological talks and and you know he's attending it.

He's he's he's listening. He's participating and I had the opportunity of baptizing him this past this past summer. It's just just a tremendous thing and my daughter as well, and I'll just say one thing and then we'll take take calls.

One night after my son had left the theological talk there was the discussion had started off on the purpose-driven life purpose-driven church stuff and then went into other things and. At one point one of the pastors in the group and again, this is after Josh had left.

Was talking about how it's silly in many of our in many of our Churches that we separate our children off from the more mature Christians. They don't they don't get to interact with the older Christians so that they So that they don't have anyone to model their own walk after and the pastor then said this.

He said something along the lines of and maybe Michael Fallon could correct this because I remember looking right over at him after this was said. The passion is something along the lines of it's obvious that they don't do that at dr. White's church because you can engage either one of his children in almost any subject and interact with them as adults and I looked over at Mike and and and Mike got this funny look on his face, and it's hard to do and on in.

By voice, but he put his hands up to his head and and then made the blue. Type of look like my head was swelling and I was gonna have trouble getting out the door when. After that one and I just smiled and shook my head.

Yes, exactly, right? I just had some wonderful conversations with my kids and and I could trust them. They were out just doing their own thing. You know the Lord's just really been gracious to me along those lines and it was it was a wonderful thing so that's what I take from the.

From the crews, especially is just how very much Very much blessed I have been in regards to those things. We have two callers online. That means I think there's one. Whoa, I think there's one. One other line available at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll be taking your calls right after this get online. We'll talk to you after the break. And.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In Their book the same-sex controversy. James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures. They refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at al min or answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God.

James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith in. In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a Omin org, what is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult.

Secularism false prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant.

In his book the potter's freedom. James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply. It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded.

Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate. James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org. Yeah.

Yeah, I wanted to sing along, but I'm gonna save you all from that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Your calls here on the program today. I thought for sure the phone lines would be melting down.

I think we have a full bank now. But not as many as I expected. I'm gonna start with Chris and Peoria, Illinois because I think I know who Chris is. Hi Chris. Hey, how are you doing, James? Hey.

So you've been listening in, huh? Yes, I have and I first just want to thank you for not singing along.

I I do appreciate. Hey, wait a minute. I've heard you sing to bitten. Be careful. I got something on you too, you know.

Hey, you know my my call was with regard to the Debate you had with George Bryson. I Haven't listened to the entire debate. I listened to the beginning of it and when he was asked by Hank Hanegraaff what exactly is the Dark side of Calvinism.