Flip-flopping theology, roller coaster ride

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

Sheep

among misfits.

A misfit in the trailer park at night.

A misprint with the six cents.

Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D.

My two cents never made sense.

Either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

My 9th Smith on my right side.

Why you staring at your cop.

Dot sign.

And my John Hancock on the dotted line.

Tell me what's the bottom line.

The bottom line is I'm not right.

I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight.

There's nothing left but the spotlight.

Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight.

Moonlight.

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want You can say what you.

I'm wits in the deep end.

And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

My theology don't fit in.

Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen.

To the Reformed, I'm just another Baptist baptized again.

The bastard child of Anabaptist.

Host to child of Reformation society.

We don't need your education.

Give me a Bible and a brood ship of dead men.

Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans.

Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men.

Making Reformation great again.

You can say what you want.

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want.

Alright, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Open Air Theology.

My name is Jeff, I am one of the hosts of the show.

And someone didn't cut the volume down on their phone or whatever.

Anyways, my name is Jeff, I'm one of the co -hosts of the show.

And I am also one of the co -elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church In

Tallahoma, Tennessee.

And I'm going to pass it downward.

And we'll work our way to Rick.

Well, hi, I am Haps Addison One of the co -hosts of Open Air Theology And

the host of R &B Studios And I have a PhD in flip

-flopping And I'm going to pass it to Brayden.

There you go.

Everything's backwards.

Well, not for me, my new camera allows me to do mirror.

Oh, really?

Are you mirroring right now?

Yeah, right hand.

No Yeah.

Oh, that just happened.

I'll send you a link.

I'll send you a link.

Well, I'm Brayden Patterson.

I am the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho.

I have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex -Mormon Love being a part of this group of Open Air Theology.

If you live in southern Idaho.

Or if you want to travel really, really far.

Come check us out on Sundays at 11 a .m.

And I will pass it to my lovely co -elder, Rick, about me there.

I'm Rick Emerson.

And I am, like Brayden said, co -elder at Valley Baptist.

And that's enough about me.

All right, so before we get started with our topic I want to let everyone know that Monday the 6th

Brayden Patterson and myself will be on The Gospel Truth.

Having an open discussion on the subject of Calvinism.

I can't remember the two guys' names.

I think one of them's name is J .P. Moller.

All right, and what's the name of their podcast?

The Calvinist Killer J .P. Uncut and

Truth Cartel.

Truth Cartel.

That's it.

Well, so Brayden and myself are going to have the opportunity To have a discussion with them.

We don't think it's going to go well.

We hope it will.

We're fixing the camera.

And the reason we don't think it'll go well while you're fixing the camera.

It's not a debate, it's a discussion.

And that's why.

Yes.

From what we've seen.

And that's the main thing.

We wanted a lot of interruption.

Why?

Yeah, we wanted a debate.

A moderated debate.

Like a moderated debate.

All they want is a discussion.

So hopefully you'll be able to tune in for that.

I'll share it.

I know it's going to be live on YouTube and a bunch of different platforms.

Something's going on with my computer I'll figure it out.

We can still see you, Jeff.

Yeah, you can see me.

Like the comments that come up on my computer.

Everything is laced out.

It's kind of like got a blue tint.

And everything is written in white.

It normally doesn't look like that.

I don't see any comment.

Well, I don't know what to tell you, brother.

So our show today is on the subject of flip -flopping theology rollercoaster

ride.

Yep, that's it.

Yeah, yeah.

So to say the least.

The last, how long has it been?

Three weeks?

Has it been three weeks since we've been on?

I think it's been two weeks, I think.

Well, I'm going to stick with three.

Three is my favorite number.

So the last three weeks.

It's been a rollercoaster.

My wife came in here today.

As me, Habs, and Brayden were having a conversation.

And the way that we have our conversations.

We usually yell at each other.

And she said, are y 'all fighting?

I'm like, we do this all the time.

Why are you questioning what we do?

Every single day, five, ten times a day.

Yeah, we just talk and yell at each other.

But we've really been challenging one another.

On certain interpretations of the scripture I would say at

least within the last three weeks.

Every one of us, in one way or another Has changed our view on a certain

subject.

Now Brayden, I know I've been asking for forgiveness.

But I think we'll start off on how everything started.

It was a bunch of crap is what started it.

So Brayden was.

No, no, no, no, no.

I got to start with a lie.

Don't start with a lie.

I'm not starting with a lie.

I'm just letting you know I traveled with my wife Forty minutes to another town To spend the day with them To

go to the Pumpkin Patch.

And you've ruined my whole day, Jeff.

You've ruined my wife's whole day Because all I could do was be upset about what you were saying.

Well, that's what we give her.

I don't know what y 'all are doing, right?

I have no knowledge of what y 'all are doing.

Or I feel like doing what I do.

So it's not my fault.

Go ahead and tell them what you did to me.

They'll understand.

So Brayden had mentioned That we were Israel.

And as a Reformed.

As someone who has a Reformed theology And a pastor of a Reformed Baptist church.

Well, I too believe that.

But I kind of just wrote it down.

I'll mess with them about this.

Because for those of you that don't know Brayden and myself are teaming together To write a book on

Covenant theology From a truly Reformed Baptist perspective.

I'm saying that to throw rocks at people.

And so I contacted Brayden one day.

And as we were talking I wasn't planning on it.

But I kind of looked over in my peripheral.

I saw the little post -it note.

I keep post -it notes.

And if I was to turn this camera around And you would see my wall.

It's just filled with post -it notes.

It's kind of how I do my theology.

Post -it note theology.

And it reminded me To mess with Brayden about Israel.

And I had mentioned.

And as I was leaving I said, I know you're about to get off.

And I know that you probably hoed to this too.

But I'm really tripping on how All these Reformed people think that we're Israel.

But I'll talk to you later.

And he was like, hold on, hold on, hold on.

What did you say?

Anyways, I challenged him to a debate.

It's right.

Whenever this war started.

And everything.

And me and Jeff.

And Jeff and I in the background.

Are cracking up, dude.

And Brayden is getting all.

I mean, it was bad.

It was bad.

Well, I'm talking about He would text me I don't know how many verses.

Like just verse after verse.

Long, like books of the Bible.

Like trying to prove his point to me and everything.

And I'm over there saying We're debating.

You know, talking.

I'm not really defending the position I was saying scripturally.

Because, I mean, to be honest There is no scripturally verses.

But I kept saying stuff like What did I say?

Brayden was losing his mind, dude.

Completely losing his mind.

Replacement theology I said, that's replacement theology.

And he was like, what?

You're supposed to be Reformed.

Anyways, the next day I called him.

I said, hey Brayden.

How are you doing?

He said, I don't know.

And I was like, hey, you know what?

He said, I was just kidding.

And he got mad at me for kidding.

Yeah, he lost it.

Yeah, it turned out.

His wife told me That he couldn't even sleep that night.

He got Mormon again.

Look, I'm just thankful That Christ can forgive you.

Because I can't.

It was rough.

Yeah, so that began a cycle.

And do you want me to keep going.

About the first Corinthians?

How that took place?

Oh man.

And we can get into that conversation.

No.

Yeah, you can keep on going.

Or I can, it's up to you.

Well, I mean, it all started with me.

So there's a couple of young ladies That are members of my church.

And they contacted me.

And they said that we're going to have to talk About first Corinthians chapter 13.

No, chapter.

Yeah, chapter 13.

Yeah, it was 13.

On the perfect.

And I kind of just kind of forgot about it.

Or whatever.

And then whenever we got to church She reminded me that.

Because we have a full meal after every service.

And so after every service We kind of sit there And make fun of each other.

Or talk theology Or what have you.

And so when I sat down at the table to eat I had one interpretation

Concerning the perfect.

And when I got up from that table I had no clue what the perfect was.

And then I, whenever I got home I was probably about four or five o 'clock I just texted our little

group.

And I said, hey, we're going to have to talk About the perfect in first Corinthians.

And the next thing I know Brayden and Haps are in this long

text debate About what the perfect is.

And I would say for what, three or four days.

We would talk and argue Oh, it was gloves off.

It was gloves off.

It was gloves off.

There was blood everywhere.

Yeah, and I think now we are on the same track.

On what is the perfect, right?

I believe, right?

Or do we need to put on the boxing gloves, right?

We're still got boxing gloves on.

Brayden, you all right?

Well, I think you and I are closer together.

Little boxing gloves.

Yeah, I got a little kid boxing gloves.

I'll let you borrow.

You're all about to see the perfect here in a moment.

It's messed up, guys.

So if everyone who is listening Can grab your Bibles And turn with me to

first Corinthians chapter 13.

I'm already there.

I got the whole thing memorized.

Oh, where did he go?

See, see, that's what he.

He's playing the rapture card again, dude.

Hey Haps, can you turn your mic up?

I can hardly hear you.

Can you hear me now?

A little more.

Can you hear me now?

I hear you a little better.

That's full blast, dude.

All right, well, I don't know if it.

I can hear him.

You can hear me?

Maybe it's just me.

Yeah, it's you.

It's definitely you, Jeff.

All right.

Brayden, say something.

Say something, Brayden.

Hello.

Hello, we are Israel.

So, first Corinthians chapter 13 We'll begin in verse

8.

Do you all want to read it?

Keep going, bro.

You're talking, just send it.

No, I've been talking the whole time.

How about you read, Brayden?

Okay, first Corinthians 13, 8 and on Love never fails.

But if there are gifts of prophecy They will be done away with.

If there are tongues They will cease.

If there is knowledge It will be done away.

For we know in part And we prophesy in part.

But when the perfect comes The partial will be done away.

And I'll pause there Because I think that's where Most of the conversation goes.

We'll probably read after that as well.

But.

No, we definitely have to.

There's no problem.

Do you want me to keep on reading right now?

I mean, you don't have to.

Just like right here There's no There's no real interpretation Of

what the perfect is.

You know, just right here As we stand with this verse In order to understand What the perfect is We'll have to

continue to read.

But what about this Verse 8

and 9.

Well, so When we think of this thumbnail That we put for this video I'm supposed to have Like a really

dizzy head on it.

Because literally my head's been Like a bobblehead.

These last couple of weeks Just changing.

None of my conclusions have changed.

But the routes that I get there Have changed drastically.

And that's 1 Corinthians 13 Has changed for me.

John chapter 3 Has changed for me.

Ephesians chapter 2 Has changed for me.

Like it's been a crazy Couple of weeks on this.

And so I came into this text.

And I came into this text With the same view that we had When we had this conference Earlier this year When we were asked.

What the perfect is.

And we all said Everybody unanimously said The canon The canon The apostolic age.

Right?

That's what we all said.

And that's always been my I shouldn't say always.

But after studying this text That's what my view had been For a long time.

It wasn't mine.

Well, you weren't on the panel.

So I didn't know.

You weren't on the panel?

You had disappeared.

No.

You'd walked out.

And we're like I'm out.

And we're like what?

No, I didn't get to the panel.

You know, I was.

I was stuck at home.

With the wife.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

My blood pressure was up.

That's right.

But everybody there Had said it's the canon.

So when I heard These two guys Talking about that It's not the canon I was I was not happy.

But then I was very Challenged to go in And look at this.

Yeah, but first You thought that we were Playing with you Because of this.

Because the whole Israel thing I don't trust you guys anymore.

I can't.

Like I don't know If on November 6th When we do this little Discussion with JP If you're going to Side with them.

Like I don't know I don't know.

Oh my god.

I don't know You guys hurt me Really bad And it's not It's not alright Like I still don't

know If you're joking with me Right now So it's It's not good.

Look, Rick is my only Stable rock at church anymore Because he He actually tells me Straight up And doesn't mess With me too much.

So.

He doesn't challenge you?

No, he challenges me.

But he doesn't.

He doesn't mess with me.

Like saying Saying nonsense.

Like we aren't.

Rick, you gotta step up.

Your game, homie.

Don't tell him that.

You gotta step up Your game, Aaron.

Don't tell him that.

Don't.

Don't let his head start.

Whoop.

Whoop.

Then he's floating.

I.

I question him On his If he's.

If he's gay.

Oh my gosh.

And.

Sometimes.

He gets.

Something that's kind.

Feminine.

Ohhh.

Brain.

Don't let your wife Hear that.

I'm out guys.

Hey.

That's your Rock.

Speaking.

I I.

I showed.

Him.

The.

Back in June The Ford Pride Commercial And

says You know Ford is gay.

So he went And got another Ford.

It's true.

It's true.

Alright, we'll let you continue with the text.

Anyway, so I thought we only had one happy going.

Should I just tell, should I say what my new thinking is?

Because my old thinking was that the perfect, so I always saw the -.

Well, don't give the interpretation until we read it.

What I want us to do is to walk through it until they can see the interpretation.

Okay, so I'll just say what my old interpretation was.

I thought that by the perfect, which it could be also translated as the mature or

made complete.

But when that happens, the partial will be done away with.

I always tied the partial with what will cease in verse eight, the tongues.

And so I would even tie it, I used to tie it with prophecy and knowledge as well, thinking that,

okay, what was the prophecy about?

It was the word of God.

What were the tongues needed for?

The transmission of the word of God to people that don't have the same tongue.

And the knowledge was so that people can know God without the word of God yet.

So when that perfect comes, when that canonicity of scripture happens at the end of the apostolic age,

that's when these things cease.

And my reasoning for that is in the later text, it says that for what we see

dimly now in a mirror, we will be able to see fully.

Or, but then face -to -face.

And so my thinking was in John chapter 21, John says, these things have been written to you so that you

might not be but unbelieving, but believing.

And this is out after doubting Thomas just put his finger into the nail prints and into the side of Jesus.

And so I was sitting there thinking, okay, these things have been written for us so that when we look at them, it's,

we see Christ here.

That's the perfect, that has to be what the perfect is.

And now we'll see face -to -face when it's canon after the apostolic age.

However, that's just not in the text.

I can't say that.

And that's the view that I, Andrew Rappaport, I agreed with his video fully on

that in the past.

I now disagree completely with it.

It's been a trippy couple of weeks for me, to say the least.

I still think cessationism, I still don't think tongues exist today in the regulative sense that they

were in the first century in the apostolic period.

But I just get there in a different way now.

And so should we go through this slowly?

Yeah, let's go back through it.

And I want you to point out the Greek words for done away

and for ceasing to show how they're not the same.

And what I want people to notice is as we read this, there seems to be, the

things are coming in threes, right?

You have prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.

So that's the three things that it mentions.

And what it does is, so before he reads the text, what it does is it mentions those three

things, and then it goes and exegetes, it explains those three

things.

And I think if you're coming at this text, not understanding that, that's where it's

easy to misinterpret, right?

And so the three things is prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.

And we're going to see as he's walking through this, and if he doesn't point it out, I'll point it out.

I'll stop him in his tracks and point it out for you.

Yeah, do it.

So yeah, chapter 12 to chapter 13, it's talking about...

Well, I got something to say about all this, but go on.

I'm sure you do.

I'm sure you do.

But it's all talking about the building up of the body of Christ.

There's many members, yet one body.

Chapter 13 talks about how, honestly, it starts out, and I think this is critical to understanding what's going on in chapter

14, which plays off the text that we're talking about right now.

But chapter 13, at the beginning, it talks about if you have any sort of gift and it doesn't have love, it's meaningless.

It doesn't mean anything.

And so what Paul is using is he's saying, look at the example of this one thing that you're doing, and if it lacks this

thing, it's useless.

And that's what we see in chapter 14.

If you have tongues and it lacks prophecy, useless.

If you have tongues and it lacks knowledge, it's useless.

And that's what 13 starts off with.

It says that if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not

have love, I become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

It's saying that these things, if it doesn't contain this other thing in it, it's useless.

And so when you come to verse 8, which it talks about how love is the superior of all the gifts,

verse 8 says, but if there are gifts of prophecy, so notice these three things like Jeff just said, gifts

of prophecy, gifts of tongues, and gifts of knowledge.

So there's three things set out for us here in this verse.

Prophecy will be done away with, and I don't have my Logos open right now to say what the Greek word is, but that whole

sentence right there, they will be done away with is one Greek word.

If there are tongues, they will cease.

They will cease is a different Greek word than they will be done away with.

And now notice the third one, knowledge.

Knowledge, it will be done away with.

So it will be done away with has been mentioned now twice with prophesying and

knowledge, not with tongues.

And then in verse 9, it says, for we know in part.

So notice that Greek word in that, again, I don't have Logos open right now, but that in part is a Greek word right there.

And it says, we know, know represents knowledge.

We know in part.

Our knowledge is in part.

And we prophesy in part.

So that ties us to verse 8 as the things that will be done away with in verse 8, right?

Prophecy, knowledge done away with.

We know in part.

We prophesy in part.

Same Greek words for part and part there.

And then in verse 10, when the perfect or the mature or the made complete comes, what will be done away with?

The same Greek word that's used for knowing in part and prophesy in part is the

partial that we have.

The partial will be done away with.

And what is that Greek word again?

The same exact Greek words that's used in verse 8 with those of prophecy and knowledge.

And so when I look at this, I now have to say without saying what the perfect is, as we'll get to,

it's not talking about tongues being done away with.

It's saying knowledge and prophecy.

It's not talking about tongues at all.

And that blew my mind because I've been always sitting here thinking this is when canon

comes, tongues will cease.

And it's not even talking about tongues being done away with in verse 10.

I do think in verse 8, he's talking to the first century church telling them they will cease.

So it does cease in the first century.

However, that's not what verse 10 is talking about being done away with.

That's only knowledge and prophecy that it's talking about.

Yeah, so verse 11, we'll pick up on the tongues.

Do you want me to keep on reading?

Either you or I can, it don't matter.

I'll just keep on going.

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child.

Notice the word speak.

Whenever someone's talking in tongues, they're speaking.

Like a child.

Sorry, I just got to say.

Like a child.

Like, think like a child, reason like a child.

So two things just happened there.

Thinking like a child.

What is that mimicking in the previous verse?

Knowledge, reason like a child.

Again, we're not saying prophecy in this text.

It's talking about predicting future things, but it's forth telling of what has happened in the past regarding the resurrection.

And so we prophesy in part, right?

In this text, it says, we reason like a child.

When I became a man, I did away with childish things.

Again, that word I did away is a connecting word here in the prior text in

verse 10 and eight.

So it's using the same language over and over and over again.

So I did away with childish things.

So it's basically saying that speaking in tongues is childish.

Well, I mean, let's stop and look at it.

Hold on.

Are you about to set off in something into a debate?

Because if so, just give us a minute to finish this out, this thought.

No, no, no.

I mean, because tongues was given for the unbeliever, not for the believer.

So if tongues was given for an unbeliever and not a believer, that's just,

yeah.

Tongues.

So we'll get into that.

Tongues is for the unbeliever.

So verse 12, for now, while we see in a mirror dimly, but then, so it's

a future thing, face to face.

But notice what it's doing right here.

It says, we'll see.

All right.

So this is what?

Keep reading.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, you're good.

But then face to face.

Now I know in part.

So that's the same Greek word, know in part.

But when I will know fully just as I have, but I will know fully

just as I have been fully known speaking present tense.

So let me just give some quick

commentary on chapter 14, because this all plays into the understanding of what's going on in this text.

Chapter 14 talks about if you have gifts of tongues, which Paul says is a good thing.

He says, I speak in tongues more than you do.

He says, I wish everybody could, but he's saying if you just speak in tongues and it doesn't have prophecy and knowledge, it's nothing.

I would rather have you seek after prophecy because that's edifying to the church.

And the signs are a gift or the tongues are assigned to unbelievers.

And so my reasoning in this is what the tongues were for was to

transmit the gospel to unbelievers in their native tongue.

And what's going on in this Corinthian church is if I was in Hagerman, Idaho, and all my

congregation is English and I had the gift of tongues.

And when I spoke English, I can make it sound as be Spanish.

Would there be, first of all, any benefit by me speaking Spanish to an English congregation?

No.

Second of all, if I was speaking Spanish and it wasn't with prophecy talking about Christ, is there any

value in it at all?

No.

That's what Paul is arguing about in this text.

He's saying, why do you have tongues when no one can even hear you?

There's no interpreter.

No one understands what you're saying.

And so there's no value.

It's just a noisy gong.

And I would rather have you have prophecy within it, because like he said in the prior text, if you have gifts, but that doesn't have love,

it's useless.

So if you have tongues that don't have prophecy, it's useless.

It doesn't actually build up the body of Christ.

And so all that being said, I think he's saying that tongues aren't a bad thing in the first century, but

they will cease.

But the perfect, when the perfect comes, the knowledge and being done away with or being, yeah, being done away with and prophesying

being done away with that, is what verse 12 is talking about.

And verse 12 is that right now, us as believers, we know Christ in part.

We have a relationship with him in part, but he knows me fully.

When I either die or he comes again, I will see him face to face.

And I will know him fully just as he does.

See, actually, I disagree with that.

You do?

I thought we was on the same page.

No, dude, that's it, bro.

No, no, no, no.

What page are you on?

No, the fully known is the resurrection of the dead.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Returned.

I'm telling you, but not if I die and I go to heaven.

Because I still won't be made complete.

Right, I agree with that.

I guess what I'm saying.

Complete is whenever we, like Christ, receive our glorious resurrected body.

So how's it going, Rick?

If Christ comes before I die.

That's great.

That's why we're having a good time tonight.

Christ comes before you die.

OK, OK.

Yes, that's what I'm saying about that.

Man, I'm telling you what, son.

Thought I was going to have to rock him up.

We're a little agitated with each other, guys.

We're a little agitated.

Rick, what are your thoughts on that?

By just hearing what we just said, what I just said, what are your thoughts on that?

Sure, sounds good.

OK.

Now, I think it needs to be gone back over, because I think you went too slow for people to understand.

So just real quick, I'll give a quick reiteration.

In the verse 8 and 9, he mentions, well, verse 8, he mentions three things.

Prophecy, knowledge, and tongues.

Not in that order.

It's actually, excuse me, prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.

All right.

Prophecy and tongues ends with the same Greek words, which is, will be done away with.

All right.

The cease is different from that.

And then as you walk through this, he talks about that prophecy, that knowing,

knowing connects to knowledge, and prophecy connects to what it says, prophecy.

And those things are in part.

So the things that are going to be done away with are the things that are in part, and they'll be done away at the

resurrection of the dead.

As far as tongues, tongues are going to cease.

And he mentions, when I was a child, I spoke like a child, I reasoned like a child, so on and so forth.

He says, but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Basically calling tongues childish.

Talking about as he matured, you know, he's not a child anymore.

He grew up and became a man.

He did not do the things that children did.

Speaking of tongues.

And why is it equated to a child?

Because a child can be difficult to understand, right?

Difficult to understand.

If you're speaking in tongues and no one can understand you, that's childish.

It's not beneficial.

Right.

Well, and is that also with the church being young

and the necessity of tongues in the early church?

And then as the church has matured, it doesn't need tongues.

Right.

Also, because the church is no longer a child in that sense.

Yep. Yeah.

And also like in the beginning of Corinthians, and I pointed this out, like the only thing I knew when I got off that

table that day, was that the sign gifts were for the Jews and knowledge was for the Greeks.

Right.

I don't like where you go with this.

No, no, no.

I'm not saying I go to the same place with it.

Okay.

Right.

Because I still think it's the same thing.

Right.

I mean, like I'm a barbarian Greek.

And one thing that I love about the Christian faith is the knowledge.

I love theology.

Like I love learning new things.

Right.

And like for me, like the sign gifts, you know, like that doesn't

tickle my hearing.

Right.

But I love to study theology.

And so it makes sense to me.

But concerning what's taking place here, uh, you know,

with tongues being a sign gift.

Right.

And as the church matures and we see in the book of Acts that the ministry,.

I mean,.

There comes a point in time where the ministry is not really focusing on the Jews.

So in that sense, because it's not focusing on the Jews, the sign gifts,

there's no need for the sign gifts.

That makes sense.

Yay, nay.

I don't like it.

I don't like you.

Well, we've established this.

Hey, so, so hello.

So we have, uh, Samantha Greiner saying, so y 'all think tongues are childish.

No, the scriptures say the tongues are childish.

Hold on.

There's more knowledge, knowledge pops up.

Be careful what you say.

And why would you ever call a gift from God childish?

Can I respond?

Yeah.

First of all, Paul did.

Second of all, uh, the knowledge that we're talking about is a relationship with Christ, which does not puff us up.

That makes us more humble like Christ, first of all.

So second of all, when we're talking about tongues being childish, we're saying that if they were tongues in the first century that

were being spoken and no one could understand them, that was childish.

And so if, and we're saying that they're known languages too.

And so if we're saying that the tongues that are spoken today in the modern evangelical church, yes, those are

absolutely childish.

One, because they're unbiblical and two, no one can understand them.

Yeah.

And plus they're being, they're not even being done in the order that Paul says.

Like if it was biblical, Paul tells you in chapter 14, how it is to be done.

Two, no more than three, uh, one at a time.

And there has to be an interpreter.

And, and there's, and, and, and, and if the Holy spirit, like if,

if you're saying that you have the Holy spirit, the Holy spirit is not going to go against the

word of God.

The Holy spirit took part in, in, in the writing of this word, right?

The people that, that wrote the new Testament, Paul wrote the new Testament filled with the Holy

spirit.

And so the Holy spirit is not going to go against the Holy spirit.

Right.

Okay.

So, uh, Matt, Allie Ford, uh, you know, our homie, Matt Ford, uh, our Presby

baby Dipper says, uh, Hey y 'all be nice to this lady.

And then, and then she says, so only specific tongues.

So it is biblical because it's in the Bible.

Yes.

So I, I think what, what it comes down to, I know Samantha, I love Samantha.

She's a, she's a good girl.

Um, but, but she knows that we have some issues, uh, concerning theology.

Um, I mean, I, I mean, my view on tongues has never changed.

I don't believe that tongues are for the day.

I believe what we're seeing and take place in the charismatic churches is unbiblical.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's babble.

And I know that because I used to be ordained in the assembly in the assemblies of God,.

Right?

They teach you how to speak in tongues.

Hey, Samantha, I speak in tongues too.

I'm doing it right now.

No, I'm doing it right now.

Yeah.

It's a language, right?

I'm speaking English.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And Samantha, we don't want to, uh, in any way disrespect you, but we,

but if, if you are partaking in, in, in, in, in what I would call babble,

I don't think it's the biblical tongues that's taken place because when you read the book of Acts, it, it, it,

it names off, I haven't counted probably like 10 to 15 different, uh,

nations that traveled to Jerusalem that were Jews.

And it says that as they were speaking, each heard them in their own language and

also and we can't interpret scripture by feelings or, or, or by what

we're, by what we do.

And I really didn't want to make this about tongues, but, but, but, but, but let me challenge you on something.

So you have Trinitarian Pentecostals, you have Oneness Pentecostals, which both of them

worship a different God, right?

Trinitarians, I would say are Christians.

Oneness, I would say are not Christians.

And then you have a movement called Way Internationals.

And I'm going to stick with these three, but you can look at all, all these false religions around the world and they all do

the same thing.

But I'm going to stick with these three because I've witnessed these three.

I, I've hung out with Trinitarian Pentecostals who spoke babble.

I've hung out with, uh, Oneness Pentecostals that spoke babble and also with, uh, Way

Internationals.

Way Internationals is basically a mixture between a Jehovah Witness and a Oneness Pentecostal,.

Right?

All three are worshiping a different God.

And all three of them believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in

tongues.

Which one is correct?

And can I just say something real fast?

Samantha, I hear what you're saying.

You say, I disagree and feel like you are being condescending.

I followed Jesus.

I don't know about y 'all.

I worship Jesus.

He saved me.

And hey, we love Jesus.

We worship him too.

I just want you just to think about this for a second, please.

All right.

Um, when you look through all throughout scripture, you have bookends.

Genesis to Revelation.

All right.

And every time angels or God spoke to man,

they spoke to them in their own language.

In their own language.

Yeah.

All right.

Every single time.

All right.

And it's just something to consider.

Nobody's condescending you or bashing you or anything like this.

We're coming at this with love, gentleness, and kindness.

But if, if, hold on one second, Jeff.

If, if, um, a lot of people out there are allowed to give their, um,

understanding of scripture,.

So are we.

Yeah.

And so we've been planning this conversation for a while.

And, and, and for the most part, as far as I know, you never clicked on our videos.

I'm glad you, you have clicked on our videos, but, but we don't do this to, to basically

bash any, you know, anyone specific.

This is what we believe, right?

This is what we believe.

We don't believe that what's taken place in, in the charismatic church is biblical.

If I believed it was, I would be a part of the charismatic church.

And Matt, you are correct by saying that those are fair answers that they,

they, they are.

There are fair questions on her part for answers on our part.

And, uh, we should, um, uh, okay.

Agree to disagree.

You're right.

Yep.

Samantha.

Yeah.

Cause we don't want this to, to, to carry on about tongues.

If y 'all want, we can do an episode solely focused on tongues.

How many times have we done that already?

On tongues?

Yeah.

I don't, I can't never think of, I don't know of any.

Oh my gosh.

We talked about cessationism when I went up and looked for Bigfoot.

We talked about cessationism, but not specifically tongues.

Now, but, but tonight's episode is, is basically how we flip flopped and been on a

rollercoaster ride with our theology.

And this is just loop number one in this rollercoaster here recently.

Yeah.

Should we get into the second one?

Why don't we get Rick, Rick, uh, in the conversation?

Where you at Rick?

Um, I, I just, I don't think it it's, it's changing.

Um, uh, kind of like what Brayden was saying.

Um, still the same conclusion.

Uh, it was fascinating.

The, the words that were used and how they, they match up with the, the, with prophecy, um,

tongues and, uh, knowledge.

Um, but yeah, so that, that was interesting, but it, it's, he, he shared a little

bit with me, um, at church.

We talked about it, but like, Oh, good for you.

Nice.

Man, it's just completely changed.

We were going crazy.

I know.

And then Rick was like, okay, cool.

Wait, you're telling me this doesn't affect you.

Like it has affected me.

I mean, I mean, the biggest thing that we can say from this is that the perfect is not the canon, but

the perfect is the resurrection of the dead.

When we are made complete the book of Hebrews chapter two tells us that Jesus was made complete through his suffering

of death bearing on resurrection.

Right.

And I would like to get on with that.

Like, like, like, like how is it that Jesus had to be made complete, but that's for another show as well.

But our being made complete is when we are conformed, truly conformed to the image of

Christ.

And that is at the resurrection of the dead.

Well, also I know Haps, I think Haps would not say that it's the resurrection.

So, and he walked away.

So we can't even hear what he had to say on it.

Let him defend it.

No.

Yes.

Speak up.

Oh, you don't have a defense.

Fine.

You agree with us.

Okay.

Let's move on.

He's given a silent.

Amen.

Right now.

Thanks Haps.

So we should look at, should we look at John three or should we look at a few?

I forgot about John three.

Yeah.

Listen, when I gave my interpretation, like I thought he was going to.

I was not happy again.

Yeah.

I was not happy again.

And there was some mean words being used by yourself towards me saying that I am a follower of John MacArthur

and Rick can answer and say that that's probably the rudest thing that you could ever say to me.

He's a MacArthur, right?

That's don't you dare.

Don't you dare.

I like MacArthur.

Don't call me a MacArthur.

But anyway, John three is, is a good text.

And I don't know where you stand on this Rick.

So maybe this would be a good one.

I think, I think you want to answer real quick.

Do you want to answer Fred?

Why can't it be the institution of the kingdom of God at the resurrection and ascension of.

Christ?

I think, I, I think it, it can't be that because if that is the

perfect and the institution of his kingdom, I think his kingdom has already been instituted at his death, burial and resurrection.

And so I, I, first of all, if Paul is saying this past those times past that time,

that date, it means that those things are still taking place, even though the perfect already come.

And he says that the perfect, when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with.

So I think logically it doesn't fit in that sense.

And especially for us to today, if we still have, especially how we're saying what knowledge and prophesying is

prophesying according to chapter 14 is, is for the edification of the church, which I think is, is

talking about preaching the gospel in the pre in chapter.

So chapter 12, where it even says that the ladies can prophesy.

So I, I, again, I don't think that's future telling.

I think that's just the preaching of the gospel.

Fourth, fourth telling.

Yep.

And so if it is, if those things all cease at the life, death, burial, and resurrection of

Christ, we still participate in not today, which I think would contradict what verse 10 is saying.

Right.

Because when it comes knowledge and prophecy will be done away

with, and, and also to touch on Caleb, he asked about, could

it be the.

Hold on.

Let me read that again, but also face to face referring to Christ.

Yeah.

That's the second coming.

So, so, so when will the resurrection of the dead be at this?

It will be at the second coming when Christ returns, the dead in Christ will rise.

Right.

Which I think, I think all of this, and I would also say contextually, I think this all fits very well together because what comes

after chapter 14, obviously chapter 15.

Right.

And so in chapter 15, it's talks about how this is the gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, according

to scriptures.

And there are some of you that say that there is no resurrection.

Well, if there is no Rex, or if Christ, if Christ didn't rise again, then, then our faith is in vain.

And if he rose again, surely we will rise again.

And then he goes into how there will be a day that we will say, death is, is, oh, death, where is your sting?

Oh, death, where's your victory?

And so it, it seems consistent to say that the perfect is the resurrection because that's the

carrying out of the context all the way through chapter 15.

Yeah, and, and, and along with our interpretation, which I think is the biblical interpretation, if you hold to full preterism, then the

perfect has already come.

We are already fully known, knowledge and prophecy is done away with, and, and, and we see ourselves

as Christ sees us.

You see, you see right now when Christ, when, when, when, when God, the Godhead looks at Jeff,

they see me perfectly righteous.

But when I look in the mirror or into the mirror of the law, I see a center.

All right.

At the resurrection of the dead, I will be, I will know myself the way Christ

has always known me.

You see what I'm saying?

So, so if someone's a full preterist, this has to have already happened.

Right.

And he just said, I am not a full preterist.

I don't think we're saying that.

I wasn't questioning Fred on that.

I was just saying, you know, in general, to go ahead and throw that in because

when the perfect comes, that is when we will be made complete.

So the word perfect there, I would translate made complete.

Right.

And he also, he also says in Daniel 9, 24, it says that when the Messiah comes, he will still envision a prophecy, which

we would agree with that Christ is the fulfillment of all righteousness.

Right.

But even in the day of Paul, prophesying was happening.

And so is that speaking about them telling the future or like Rick said, forth telling, telling what happened in the

past for the salvation of their sins.

And so we're saying.

Or prophecy, like the definition is given to us what prophecy is right here.

It's in verse three, but one who prophesies speaks to men for right here,

edification and exhortation and encouragement.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's I would see it as as preaching.

Right.

Acts 2, 42, they gather together for the teachings of the apostle.

So when the apostles were teaching, they were exegeting.

They were explaining scripture.

That in one sense is a term of prophecy.

What did the prophets in the Old Testament do?

God told them something.

They repeated what God told them.

Right.

Like that's what prophecy is.

Listen, ladies and gentlemen, God has told us something.

And when we stand in the pulpit, we are repeating what God has told us.

For the, what this is, the edification, exhortation and encouragement.

All right.

Now let's go to.

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Some Sky.

I didn't want you to bring that up, Paps.

Sky apologetics said battle of the beards.

Haps, did you want to give your interpretation of the perfect before we move to John three?

Sure.

Because you disagree with us.

We're saying it's the resurrection.

What are you saying?

Well, I want everybody to put on their thinking caps and just place it upon

your head.

And I think that we should honestly read this from, well, we can't do it right

now.

But when we look at all of Corinthians, first Corinthians, and remember

there is, uh, four letters that was written to the Corinthians.

First Corinthians is actually letter B.

Uh, second Corinthians is actually letter D.

So this was an ongoing thing that Paul was having to discuss with the Corinth

church, who was, um, who was out of control.

They were still the body of Christ and everything.

But as you read in first Corinthians chapter one, and let's just move all the way forward.

This is a letter of correction.

So he's correcting them on everything.

Now, now, now I'm just, just hear me out.

Brayden, stop it.

I'm so, I'm so mad.

All right.

Just stop it right now.

All right.

So it was, he starts off in first Corinthians going, he's, he's talking to them

like, cause they would have these things called rhetoric debates.

So it's like, I'm from, I was baptized by Paul.

I was baptized by Jesus.

And he's going on and on and he charges them with arrogance and sexual

immorality.

And he says it over and over again, first Corinthians.

All right.

Remember it's a letter of correction.

All right.

And so when he comes to talk about the gifts and he's going on and on about the

gifts and everything at the very end, he says this of chapter 12 and I, he goes,

he goes, but earnestly, that's 1231, but earnestly desire the

higher gifts.

And I will still show you a more excellent way.

And then he goes in, if I speak of the tongues of men and of angels,

but have not love, I'm a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Well, we know that in their culture, because it comes from a pagan culture, that the banking of the

symbols was how they would start speaking in utterances and they'd start speaking in, in, um,

um, babble.

And that's what pagans used to do.

Um, uh, um, now when he goes on and he says, uh, um,

love is patient.

Love is kind.

It never envies, never boast.

It is not arrogant or rude.

It does not insist on its own ways.

It is not irritable or resentful.

It does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Amen.

Love never ends.

Now, now, here we go.

As for prophecies, they will pass away.

As for tongues, they will cease.

As for knowledge, it will pass away for we know in part and we prophesy in part.

But when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

Now let's stop right there for a second.

And I just want you to hear me out.

Letter of correction.

He actually says in, what was it?

In, um, in, uh, well, let me go to it real fast.

I'm sorry.

In, uh, chapter, uh, three, uh, he actually, uh,

tells them.

And remember, this is the church that that's floating, man.

They're in the spiritual gifts and everything, right?

But I brothers could not address you as spiritual people.

But as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ, I fed you with milk,

not solid food for you were not ready for it.

And even now you are not ready for it.

You are still in the flesh.

So where there's jealousy, strife among you, are you not of the flesh and

behaving only in a human way?

This is the context of first Corinthians right here.

He's dressing, uh, addressing a spiritual immature church.

All right.

They're spiritually immature.

All right.

Now, if they're spiritually immature, when we get to 13 and he's,

and he's saying right here, uh, love is patient.

I mean, this is what we pursue right here is love.

Why in the world now, just give me, I'm on my soapbox for a second.

Why in the world would he break into prophecy right in the middle and

start talking about either the Canon of scripture or, or, uh, um,

uh, uh, what, what was your interpretation again?

It's the resurrection.

Okay.

Or the resurrection.

All right.

When he says this, where we know in part, we prophesy in part, but when the perfect

comes.

Now that word perfect does mean mature means spiritually mature.

And go look at me.

And no, no, no.

It can be in the context that we're reading it in from chapters one to chapter

13.

All right.

It is talking about spiritual maturity.

All right.

Now, hold on.

First idea, or can you not yet?

Not yet.

Not yet.

All right.

Not yet.

He goes, but when the perfect comes, when the, when the mature comes, the partial will pass away.

Now, this is crazy.

What he says right afterwards.

I thought like a child.

I reasoned like a child.

When I became a man, I gave up childish ways for now we see in a mirror dimly,

but then face to face.

Now I, I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I have been

fully known.

And then he, he rounds it off right here.

Does it says nothing about the resurrection says nothing about anything.

So, so now, so, so everything regarding, he just said faith,

hope, and love abide in these three, but the greatest is love.

Now, when you go to 15, the end of the chapter, he has to remind them of what the gospel of Jesus

Christ is.

He gives them the gospel.

And then he goes into the resurrection.

And then he says the Christ must rule in rain until he puts

all his enemies underneath his footstep.

Now, this is where my PhD in flip -flopping comes.

All right.

Now, can that mean what you're, you're, you guys are

suggesting?

Yes, it can.

But can it also, I mean, reading it in context mean being spiritually

mature because you can't expect somebody that's immature in Christ

to know about this.

That's why he has to reassure them in 15 about the resurrection mean about the gospel of

Jesus Christ, the scriptures that almost be fulfilled and the

resurrection.

Because that's, that's part of it, man.

And that, that the Christ should rule in rain.

And then he goes on in 16, the collection of the saints.

I mean, it's just in the final, uh, uh, uh, instructions now concerning our brothers, 16,

12, not concerning our brothers, Apollos, I strongly urge him to visit you with the other brothers,

but it was not at his will to come.

Now we will come when the opportunity, uh, uh, when he has

opportunity to be watchful, stand firm in your, in the faith, act like men,

be strong, let all that you do be done in love.

I mean, I look at it and it's whole because when you go to second Corinthians, he

is committed.

He is like, I'm so I'm sad.

I had to come at you with a heavy stick and everything and come at you all like sideways and everything, but look at

you repented.

So that that's my view on it.

That that's how I feel about it.

Boom.

So we really need to get the John three, but I want to just ask a couple of questions.

Um, so you think it should be, uh, verse 10 basically.

Uh, but when the mature, your maturity comes, the partial will be done away with, would

you say it could be translated that way?

Yeah.

Okay.

What is the partial, according to your understanding?

Your, your partial understanding.

Because yeah.

Yeah.

So would you say that, that since the, but you also said that that can happen from

individual church to individual church, that it's not like a one -time significant church wide, correct?

I'm saying for, for this church, this church right here.

All right.

Yeah.

Hold on.

Hold on.

Hold on.

I just want to, I just want to point that out.

So, so the perfect can happen at individual time, at different times for

different churches.

So the, the, uh, the prophecy and the knowledge can say, so, so would you say that

whenever they were made mature, what is knowledge there?

Uh, knowledge of the Lord, knowledge of the Lord.

So we no longer need the knowledge of the Lord.

No, uh, uh, when the knowledge is going to be done away with, well, when the knowledge of the Lord comes, do

you need the knowledge, the perfect, when the perfect comes when the.

Mature prophecy, when we have, when the mature comes prophecy and knowledge will be done.

Away with.

So if knowledge is of the Lord, the knowledge of the Lord is done away with whenever they're.

Mature.

Well, it's, it's more like, okay.

So you had those, um, that, that were following, uh, John the Baptist.

All right.

And they were baptized and everything.

And then they had, then you had, uh, um, uh, Aquila and Priscilla go, Oh no, no, no, no.

Let, let, let us tell you what, what, what happened.

It's I, I look at it more like that.

Yeah.

But this is the knowledge of the Lord, you know, who, who is God.

Right.

Okay.

So would you say that, that, that right now the church is mature or, or

can this be something that's, that's, that's repeatedly happened in individual churches?

I think this is, uh, I think that this is, um, something

that was happening with their church.

Uh, can it be happening still today?

Uh, possibly, but I know it was happening with this church right here.

All right.

So would you say that, that whenever they became mature, it's right here, it says

now I know in part, but then I will know, I will fully know.

Also, I will fully know as I also have been known.

So do they have perfect knowledge of who they are?

Like, do they know who they are perfectly?

Like when did this text is describing?

Well, you know, when it's talking about in love and it's talking about in faith, the faith,

hope, and love abide these three, but the greatest is love.

And they're not showing that.

All right.

But when they, they come to realize it, like they did in second Corinthians.

All right.

It showed in their fruit, it showed in there, they were being hospitable.

They were welcoming Timothy.

That was, that was coming.

All right.

That they, they, they repented now.

Now, could I be wrong real quick?

That's where real quick.

So in chapter 15, where it talks about the gospel and the resurrection of the dead,.

Verse 15, excuse me, you talk about chapter 15.

Yeah. Yeah.

Chapter 15.

So, so basically at the end where it talks about like in verse 48, it says, as the earthly,

excuse me, as is the earthly, so also are those who are earthly.

Right.

So, so at the resurrection of the dead, both the, the just and the unjust are going to come, the sheep and the goats.

And it says, as is the earthly.

So this is speaking about those that are under Adam, right?

They're coming, their federal head is Adam.

As the earthly, the man of dust, so also the earthly.

And as the heavenly, so also those who are, who are heavenly.

So that's the just and the unjust.

And just as we have born the image of the earthly, when we're born, we have the

image of, we're born with the broken image of God, which is the image of Adam.

I've done a teaching on that.

I'd be happy to do that another time.

We also will bear the image of the heavenly.

So this is speaking about the resurrection of the dead.

Now, would you say at that moment, when they are, when, when we are fully

glorified, resurrected, like Christ was, will we have

perfect knowledge of who we are?

Will we see ourselves as he sees us?

Well, the whole thing gives us, we have perfect knowledge right now.

We are seated with him in the heavenlies.

We are heirs to the throne to God.

Yeah, we don't have perfect knowledge, but I can tell you what the scriptures say.

But, but this, but this, no, it's not speaking of the Bible.

Listen, I'm talking about, so, so, so do you believe in the saint center reality?

Right.

We are saints because we are credited with righteousness by faith.

And we believe as Abraham was credited with righteousness by believing.

So to you and I, but we still wear this garment of flesh.

Yeah.

And sometimes we give in to this garment of flesh, right?

Hallelujah.

And so we live in the center reality.

All right.

God sees me perfectly righteous in Christ.

When I see myself, I see a center.

All right.

But I'm saying at the resurrection, I will see myself perfectly righteous.

And I don't see myself like that now.

I know I am perfectly righteous in the eyes of God, but I don't see myself like that.

Whenever I come about the grave glorified, then I will see myself for that.

Yeah.

I think that's totally reading into the text right there.

And it is not, man.

I think it totally is.

Absolutely.

I think it, I think it is.

We're going to have to set up a debate.

We got to go to John 3.

We need to set up a debate.

I will just say this real fast.

Can I say something real fast?

Yes.

You did challenge me and that's why I changed my position because nowhere in the scriptures are talking about the canonosity of

scripture.

So I appreciate you doing that.

But you can't say that resurrection isn't taught in the scripture because in chapter 15, that's the whole chapter on this.

And I'm saying it's building.

I know.

I know you didn't.

I'm just saying.

I'm just saying.

I appreciate your position because you pushed me to get to the position I'm at right now.

And I'm trying to pull you up.

But the whole thing is, look at this, guys, look at this.

The whole thing is, is, is I accept your apologies.

You know, and it's okay, dude, you're, you're at this.

You're right here.

I'm like JP.

I'm like way up here, dude.

So like I'm way up here.

All right.

All right.

Let's go to John three.

If we need to get back on this another time, we will.

Hey, hold on, guys.

I have to jump off.

I have to jump on another show real fast.

Oh, I see your commitment.

No, no, no, it's not.

No, I have.

I have a meeting with the passing the torch with building the page right now.

This is the only time I got.

All right.

All right.

Love you guys, man.

Love you.

Get the gospel.

Just kick him out now.

Don't let him leave.

You need to repent and believe like we do.

That's a fact.

He's still talking.

He doesn't know.

He's not even on it.

Oh, is he still talking?

You kicked him off.

That's messed up, dude.

All right, John.

Three.

Okay, John three.

So how does the conversation of John three start?

Look, can we just say at the very beginning?

First time out.

Yes, I will say that you were right.

I am wrong on this one occasion.

I was right on all millennialism and you switched from post -millennialism.

So that was a that's that's.

But we still but concerning all millennialism, we still have a different view because.

You're still reformed.

Modified.

You're still reforming.

I understand.

We're getting there.

You need to reform my modified idealism.

I don't.

I don't.

Yeah, I know.

I don't want to.

You got Doug Wilson's interpretation.

No, I'm not even close, bro.

You got that right.

Come on.

All right.

So, yeah, so we are just chatting it up and I don't we are talking about Ephesians two.

And I think and then we got on to the topic of John three.

And you said that you you saw it in light of Ezekiel 36, which I agree with.

At that time, I still agreed with it that it was in light of Ezekiel.

But not really.

But not to the extent that you do as I do now either.

It's definitely there.

But I used to see John three, namely verses one through eight spot

talking about physical birth, being the birth, being born of the water and then spiritual birth, being

born of the spirit.

And so interpretation.

Now, I don't know why you got to say that at every chance you can.

That is his interpretation.

OK, fair enough.

It might be, but it's not mine anymore.

OK, and I didn't have to look at the commentary to convince me of that.

I'm just saying I've held from this view ever.

Like, I think I remember going through this with Matt Slick years ago.

So this has always been my thought on this.

I mean, I've defended it against it with LDS people often, but it's

just not there in the text from what I can see now.

I don't know if Rick, Rick, what do you see John three talking about physical birth with being born of the water

and then spiritual birth being being talked about with being born of the spirit?

Or do you see those as the same event?

Um, well, let me pull it up.

Yeah, you want something else?

I'll get there in a second.

Yeah, yeah, you're good, because that that it shook me when I read this.

Like, it was just like, well, when I not when I read this, but when when when Jeff was saying what he was saying, it was like that that

is really convincing.

So in the book of John.

Nowhere in the book convincing.

No, I was I was mad in the back of my mind.

I was like, dang, that's a good argument.

But I can't admit it yet.

I got to fight.

I got to fight it to death right now.

But John three, when it talks about the water nowhere else in all 66 books of the Bible, mainly

nowhere in the book of John does it ever talk about water being tied to physical birth.

And that's what started to get me was I can't exegetically tie this to any other place in

scripture as what the being born of the water means.

And so and I mean, this is just right after my third son was born and my wife's water broke at home.

And so I saw like water, right?

And so I'm like, man, this is John three.

Like this is being born on the water.

Like literally just said that two weeks prior to this.

And I don't I don't think that's what it teaches anymore.

And so, like I said, I've got a bobblehead.

How does that change your interpretation of that or your application?

So the so again, just like first Corinthians 13, I'm still a cessationist.

I still think that there's only one birth here.

I just I have a different means and route to get to that conclusion now.

I just feel defeated in my theology.

Well, I would say the, you know, verse three is speaking of the ethical

transformation.

Right.

Let me make sure I got that right for our not.

No, no. Excuse me.

Verse three is forensic transaction.

Right.

Unless you are born again, you cannot see right with your eyes the kingdom of

God.

And once you're born again, God removes the blinders from your eyes.

And so this is the the regeneration.

This is that by grace you have been saved.

Right.

And then verse five, when it talks about the being born of the water and the spirit.

Well, so the water there is referencing back to verse three,

and I'll get into it in just a second.

But but but when it talks about born of water and the spirit, the spirit, they're being born of the spirit.

The spirit comes by faith.

Right.

Over and over throughout the scriptures, you receive the spirit by faith.

And what I'll take you to my interpretation is Titus three, five, which says he saved us not by

works, which we did in righteousness, but according to his mercy through

the washing of regeneration and the renewal by the Holy Spirit.

And so what I was telling Braden was is that as as Jesus is speaking to

Nicodemus, as John records, Jesus is speaking about something

covenantal that was recorded in Ezekiel chapter thirty six.

So if you want to turn to Ezekiel chapter thirty six, we'll see what Jesus

what would have been on the mind of Christ whenever this conversation took place.

And so in Ezekiel chapter thirty six, the main the main part is verse twenty five.

But you normally like to read from verse twenty four, too, right?

I think so.

Yeah, I'm not open there.

But yeah, do it.

Twenty four.

Yeah.

So verse twenty four.

And I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the lands and bring

you into your own land.

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean.

I will cleanse you from all your uncleanness and all your idols.

Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you.

OK, so before I read the rest, I want you to notice what he did when he says, I will sprinkle clean

water on you.

And then he exegeted what that meant.

So notice for twenty five, I will sprinkle clean water on you.

He's telling them he's going to do something.

Here's the exegete.

I mean, I mean, excuse me.

I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean.

Here's the exegesis.

I will cleanse you from all your uncleanness and all of your filth and all of your idols.

So in regeneration, the first thing that takes place is he cleanses us from all

of our uncleanness and all of our idols.

And then he then he names off two other things that he's going to do.

And then he'll explain what they are.

He'll name them first and then explain them.

Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you.

Now, right here, he's going to explain the new heart.

I will remove your heart of stone from your flesh and give you a

heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

And you will be careful to do my judgments.

So first, I want to point out he removes the heart of stone, a dead heart.

Now, what is the law written on stone?

Right.

So whenever Israel is accused by Paul

in chapter 10 of Romans of establishing their own righteousness, right, they're keeping

the law of God, the law that's written on their heart and in order to

establish their own righteousness with God.

So the prophecy is he's going to remove their heart of stone, their heart of self -righteousness.

He's going to give them a heart of faith.

And we know from Jeremiah and Hebrews that he writes that same law on the

heart of faith, right, on the heart of flesh.

So what my interpretation is, is he removes the heart of self -righteousness and he gives us a heart

of faith.

So this is where God grants to us faith in order to believe, right?

In order to receive the Holy Spirit, you have to believe first.

It's all throughout the New Testament.

And the moment we receive the heart of faith, what happens?

He puts his spirit in us.

And what does his spirit do?

It causes us to keep his commandments.

Meaning we're not keeping them in order to earn

righteousness, but we're keeping them.

We're not keeping them really.

I mean, it's the Holy Spirit in us causing us to keep the law for the right reason, I would add.

And I think that's what Jesus is speaking about when he's speaking to Nicodemus.

Because I would say the regeneration is what the prophets would call a circumcised heart.

And also in Colossians.

So we need circumcised hearts.

Well, how does that take place?

In the washing of regeneration, he removes the heart of stone, gives you the heart of flesh, which

is faith.

And he puts his spirit in you and it causes you to keep his commands.

And so right there, the washing of regeneration, that would be the forensic transaction.

And then him putting his spirit, giving you the new heart, which allows you to enter

into that covenant by faith.

All right, go ahead.

Sounds good. Sounds good to me.

So, but also notice the order of the truth, because a lot of Reformed people talk about the order of salutis.

The true order of salutis is laid out right here.

It's regeneration, faith, then the Holy Spirit.

Dwelling in us.

Dwelling in us, yes.

Yeah, so what I had always seen, and I still think that's all one event of being born again.

I still think it's all that one event.

But if you're going to try to time it out, separate it, it's wise to go with what scripture describes it as an order of.

And I agree with you on that, Jeff.

I'm sorry.

I repent of pushing back on you as hard as I did.

Yeah, that's basically what Caleb is saying.

He's asking how does, you know, so the lineup, the order

is regeneration, faith, Holy Spirit.

But it happens like that.

It happens outside of time and space.

Right, right, right.

But it happens like that.

So faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of God.

That's Romans 10, 17.

Paul says, did you receive the spirit by works of the wall or by hearing of faith?

It's hearing of faith.

So while someone is preaching the gospel, or you might pick up a gospel track, or you might pick up the

Bible and you read the gospel, whatever that moment is, right?

Whenever you hear the gospel, God regenerates

you.

He sprinkles you with clean water, removes your heart of stone, gives you faith, and you receive the Holy Spirit.

That's the order.

But in time, it's a snap of the finger.

I like what Matt just said.

I think that's a pretty good example of that.

Heat and fire happen at the same time, but fire is the first cause.

That's good.

That's good.

That's good, Matt.

I'm glad you're reforming, brother.

I love Matt.

I love Matt too.

Yeah, but we had some disagreements.

So playing on top of that, that really gives length way into the area

of another section of scripture that we just recently changed because you quoted Romans 10, 17.

Well, also Hebrews 4...

Is it Hebrews 4 .17 or 4 .10?

That the word of God is sharper than any two -edged sword.

Hebrews 4 .12.

And separates the soul from spirit.

I don't know if we wanna go there yet or if we're too late into the show tonight to keep on going.

It's been a rough couple of weeks, guys.

Yeah, so we're struggling with some things concerning our own spirit

before regeneration.

I think it's probably gonna be best to save that till at least after the debate because I'm afraid if we go deep

into that and if JP and Moeller watches this...

You see what I'm saying?

I see what you're saying.

Yeah, so it's probably best if we save that for another time.

Okay.

Rick, what was your old view?

Did you have a new view on John 3 now or has that been always your view as Ezekiel 36?

Because if it's always been your view, I'm mad that you haven't shared that with me.

I think I had heard something like that at some point, but I've

kind of...

There's been...

Well, anyway, I challenged a guy on it a while ago, some years back, that

basically you had to have the...

If you didn't understand the cultural context of something, you had to know

all these things extra biblical to know the true intent of scripture.

And what they would actually do is twist scripture so to say the exact opposite of what the clear text says.

So like with women preaching, like I don't permit a woman

to teach, that's the clear.

So what's what Paul says.

And so we'll know if you look in the culture and you look here in this case, and this was happening in

here, it actually means exact opposite of what it says.

And so I kind of have been since then...

Like if you have scripture and you're on an island and you're not super...

Like you can read that you're gonna get the...

You'll get the gospel, you'll get the basic meaning.

Like all these other things, they help us to have, and it should deepen that understanding.

And so I've been trying to look at the bigger picture of scripture and not try to get into

too much of the minutia of something.

And so I think I probably heard that sometime, but just reading it, I've just been kind of doing the bigger

text, going over a chapter.

And so I read that and okay, he's talking about...

Most surely I say to you, unless one is born again, he can't see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus said to him, how can a man be born when he is old?

Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?

So Nicodemus has that in mind that, okay, do I need to have a physical birth again?

And so then when Jesus says, most surely I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

And so just doing a broader overview of it is like, okay, well, water's just talking about

physical birth.

And ultimately the big picture doesn't change anything.

It doesn't change, okay, well, now I got the gospel wrong.

But I do think that Ezekiel is right on that.

And so it's not something I've thought a ton about the last few years on this

section.

But I think that is the proper understanding of it.

It's not talking about...

The water is not talking about physical birth, but it's about the washing, the cleansing.

And Brayden, you'll be happy to know that that's what John MacArthur thinks too.

BRAYDEN Well, actually...

MIKE.

You agree with him now?

BRAYDEN Yeah, he doesn't understand about Ezekiel,.

But he doesn't connect.

He doesn't connect.

Well, at least, so at least in 2013,

he didn't connect Ezekiel with John chapter three.

Hopefully he kept reforming, but...

MIKE.

No, well, I have the born of water and spirit.

Jesus referred not to literal water here, but to the need for cleansing, Ezekiel 36, 24 through 27.

When water is used figuratively in OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with the spirit.

BRAYDEN.

Is that his study Bible on John three?

MIKE Yeah, that's a study, yeah.

BRAYDEN.

Yeah, so I'm speaking of a sermon that I heard him preach.

Because I had just, you know, as some of y 'all know, I was ordained, you know,

church of God, assemblies of God,.

Trinitarian Pentecostal.

And I was involved with planting a church, preaching through John.

When I got to John three, and I was preaching that message, that's what I preached.

I preached that the water was physical birth.

And I thought I had the correct interpretation.

Either way, it went against what the assemblies of God were teaching.

And then I heard MacArthur preach, and he said that same thing.

At that time, I said, yeah, that's what I believe.

And then that's whenever that strange

fire conference came out.

And so that right there, you know, watching Steve Lawson stand behind the pulpit, capture my attention,

just blew me away, because I'm used to being on a Pentecostal church and folks running around the room with the Bible and preaching.

MIKE Yeah.

BRAYDEN.

Right, and which introduced me to, R .C. Sproul and some other great Reformed folks,

which got me interested in Reformed theology.

And so like it was the flame that

sparked my growth and maturity.

And so whenever I come to the conclusion, and listen, I just now started preaching through the book of John a year

ago.

Up until I got to John chapter three, I believe that the water was physical birth.

But once I started doing the exegesis, I was like, no, there's no

way.

MIKE.

It's got to be physical birth now.

The MacArthur study Bible is wrong.

And also, I do want to say this.

I do want to say this.

Jeff, this is the second time in two weeks that you have wrongly accused me of holding up to the

position of MacArthur.

JEFF Well, there's going to be plenty of other times.

Look, all I'm saying is I need repentance to be granted to you.

And I will be praying for that.

MIKE.

And this John MacArthur's view.

Now, I don't know if he still holds to that view.

JEFF Rick, my solid rock up there that I just said.

MIKE Rick, is that one of the newer study Bibles or is that one of his other versions?

R .C. Sproul.

I don't know. I'm trying to find the publication date on it. I'm not seeing it.

MIKE Who did you buy?

Is it the NKJV?

R .C. Sproul.

All I'm saying is probably the newer version.

It's the updated edition.

Yep.

So first Corinthians 13, you guys just threw out the canon.

That's John MacArthur's view.

And then it wasn't.

It was actually some other view.

And then y 'all be just making me mad.

I'm just going to not take those accusations of being a MacArthurite seriously anymore.

JEFF So you're not a five -point MacArthurite?

R .C. Sproul.

Absolutely not.

Nah, dude.

MacArthur says that I shouldn't.

I'm not self or not.

He says I'm not a self -respecting Calvinist because I'm not a dispensational pre -millennialist.

JEFF And I'll be honest with you.

I don't understand how dispensational pre -millennialists are Calvinist.

R .C. Sproul Yeah.

JEFF Because I think consistency matters.

And I think that covenant theology is where, you know, like if

Calvinism had a bed to lie in, it would be laying in covenant theology.

R .C. Sproul.

So I'm not a Calvinist because of MacArthur.

I'm a Calvinist because I would say, and listen, Matt, Baptist covenant

theology.

Anyways, you want to close it down?

R .C. Sproul.

Yeah, let's do it.

Rick, you got anything else to say?

RICK I don't think so.

All right.

Well, I just want to remind people that the sixth

next month, I mean, next month, this coming up Monday,

I think it's going to be at seven o 'clock.

Brayden and I will be having a discussion with two other guys on the Gospel Truth Network.

RICK Seven o 'clock Central Standard Time.

RICK It's six o 'clock Central Standard Time.

RICK On the subject of Calvinism.

If I'm not mistaken, it's going to be two and a half hours and each point gets 30 minutes

discussion.

RICK Yeah, so prayers up.

Please be praying.

RICK Pray that it will be a fruitful conversation on both sides.

From what we see, they don't hardly, you know, they don't like when they're engaging people,

they cut them off and not let them fully get out their statement.

So pray that we'll be able to have our time to speak.

Other than that, hallelujah, holler back.