Flip-flopping theology, roller coaster ride

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Join us tomorrow as we ride the flip-flop and theology roller coaster ride

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You can say what you want, but you won't around me Black sheep among misfits
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A misfit in the trailer park at night A misprint with the sixth sense
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Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D. My two cents never made sense
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Either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence My 9th Smith on my right side
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Why you staring at your cop dot sign And my John Hancock on the dotted line
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Tell me what's the bottom line The bottom line is I'm not right I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight
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There's nothing left but the spotlight Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight You can say what you want
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You can say what you want, but you won't around me You can say what you want You can say what you...
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I'm whips in the deep end And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in My theology don't fit in Black sheep of the
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Reformation sheep pen To the Reformed, I'm just another Baptist Baptized again, the bastard child of Anabaptist Host to child of Reformation society
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We don't need your education Give me a Bible and a brood ship of dead men
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Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men
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Making Reformation great again You can say what you want You can say what you want, but you won't around me
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You can say what you want Alright, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Open Air Theology My name is
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Jeff, I am one of the hosts of the show And someone didn't cut the volume down on their phone or whatever
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Anyways, my name is Jeff, I'm one of the co -hosts of the show And I am also one of the co -elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church In Tallahoma, Tennessee And I'm going to pass it downward
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And we'll work our way to Rick Well, hi, I'm Haps Addison One of the co -hosts of Open Air Theology And the host of R &B
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Studios And I have a PhD in flip -flopping And I'm going to pass it to Brayden There you go
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Everything's backwards Well, not for me, my new camera allows me to do mirror
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Oh, really? Are you mirroring right now? Yeah, right hand No Yeah That just happened
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I'll send you a link Well, I'm Brayden Patterson I am the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho I have a
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YouTube channel called Reformed Ex -Mormon Love being a part of this group of Open Air Theology If you live in southern
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Idaho Or if you want to travel really, really far Come check us out on Sundays at 11am
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And I will pass it to my lovely co -elder, Rick, about me there I'm Rick Emerson And I am, like Brayden said, co -elder
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At Valley Baptist And that's enough about me
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Alright, so before we get started with our topic I want to let everyone know that Monday the 6th
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Brayden Patterson and myself Will be on The Gospel Truth Having an open discussion on the subject of Calvinism I can't remember the two guys' names
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I think one of them's name is JP Moeller Alright, and What's the name of their podcast?
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The Calvinist Killer Oh, um JP Uncut and Truth Cartel Truth Cartel Well, so Brayden and myself are going to have the opportunity
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To have a discussion with them We don't think it's going to go well We hope it will
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Uh -huh, let me fix my camera And the reason we don't think it will go well While you're fixing your camera It's not a debate, it's a discussion
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And that's why And that's the main thing Why? Yeah, we want a
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We wanted a debate A moderated debate Like a moderated debate
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All they want is a discussion So, hopefully You'll be able to tune in for that I'll share it
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I know it's going to be live on YouTube And a bunch of different platforms Alright, something's going on with my computer
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I'll figure it out We can still see you, Jeff Yeah, you can see me Like the comments that come up on my computer
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Everything is laced out It's kind of like got a blue tint And everything's written in white
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It normally doesn't look like that I don't see any comment Well, I don't know what to tell you, brother
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So, our show today Is on the subject Of Flip Flop and Theology Roller Coaster Ride Yep, that's it
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Yeah, yeah So, to say the least The last, how long has it been?
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Three weeks? Has it been three weeks since we've been on? I think it's been two weeks,
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I think Well, I'm going to stick with three Three is my favorite number So, the last three weeks
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It's been a roller coaster Like My wife came in here today
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As me, Habs And Graydon were having a conversation And the way that we have our conversations
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We usually yell at each other And she said, are y 'all fighting? I'm like We do this all the time, why are you questioning
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What we do? Every single day, five, ten times a day Yeah We just talk and yell at each other
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But we've really been challenging one another On certain Interpretations of the scripture
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I would say at least Within the last three weeks Every one of us In one way or another has changed our view
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On a certain subject Now, Brayden I know I've been asking for forgiveness
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But I think we'll start off On how everything started It was a bunch of crap
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Is what started So So Brayden Was No, no, no, no
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Don't start with a lie I'm not I'm just letting you know I traveled with my wife
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Forty minutes to another town To spend the day with them To go to the Pumpkin Patch And you've ruined my whole day,
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Jeff You've ruined my wife's whole day Because all I could do was be upset about what you were saying Well, that's what you get for I don't know what y 'all are doing
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I have no knowledge Of what y 'all are doing Or what I do It's not my fault
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Go ahead and tell them what you did So Brayden had mentioned
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That we were Israel And as a Reformed As someone who has a
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Reformed theology And a pastor of a Reformed Baptist church Well, I too believe that But I kind of just wrote it down Like I'll mess with them about this
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Because for those of you that don't know Brayden and myself Are teaming together to write a book
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On Covenant theology From a Truly Reformed Baptist perspective
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I'm saying that to throw rocks at people Okay And And so I contacted
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Brayden one day And as we were talking I wasn't planning on it
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But I kind of looked over In my peripheral I saw the little post -it note Like I keep post -it notes
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And if I was to turn this camera around And you would see my wall
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It's just filled with post -it notes Right It's kind of how I do my theology Post -it note theology
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And it reminded me You know To mess with Brayden about Israel And I had mentioned
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I know you're about to get off And I know that you probably hooded this too But I'm really tripping on how
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All these Reformed people think that we're Israel But I'll talk to you later And he was like What did you say?
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Anyways I challenged him to a debate It's right whenever this war started
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And everything And me and Jeff And Jeff and I in the background Are cracking up dude
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And Brayden is getting all I mean it was bad
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It was bad I'm talking about He texts me I don't know how many verses
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Just verse after verse Long books of the Bible Trying to prove his point to me
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And everything And I'm over there saying We're debating I'm not really defending
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The position I was saying Scripturally To be honest there is no scripturally verses
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But I kept saying Stuff like What did I say? Brayden was losing his mind dude
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Completely losing his mind Replacement theology I said that's replacement theology
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And he was like what? You're supposed to be Reformed Anyways The next day I called him
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I said hey Brayden how you doing? He said I don't know And I was like hey you know what?
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He said I was just kidding And he got mad at me for kidding Yeah he lost it
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It turned out my wife told me That he couldn't even sleep that night He got Mormon again
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Look I'm just thankful that Christ can forgive you Because I can't Oh man
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It was rough So that began a cycle
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Do you want me to keep going? About the first Corinthians How that took place?
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And we can get into that conversation No You can keep on going or I can
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It's up to you It all started with me There's a couple young ladies
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That are members of my church And they contacted me And they said
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We're going to have to talk about First Corinthians chapter 13 No chapter
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Yeah chapter 13 On the perfect And I kind of just Forgot about it or whatever
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And then whenever we got to church She reminded me Because we have a full meal
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After every service So after every service we kind of sit there And make fun of each other
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Or talk theology Or what have you And so when I sat down at the table
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To eat I had one interpretation Concerning the perfect And when
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I got up from that table I had no clue What the perfect was And then
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I Whenever I got home I was probably about 4 or 5 o 'clock I just texted our little group
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And I said hey we're going to have to talk about The perfect in First Corinthians And the next thing
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I know Braden and Haps Are in this long Text debate
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About what the perfect is And I would say for what 3 or 4 days we would talk and argue
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And yell at each other It was gloves off There was blood everywhere
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And I think now We are on the same track On what is the perfect Right?
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I believe right? Or do we need to put on the boxing gloves right? We're still boxing gloves on Well I think you and I are closer together
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Little boxing gloves I got a little some kid boxing gloves I'll let you borrow You're all about to seem perfect here in a moment
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It's messed up guys So if everyone who is listening Can grab your
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Bibles And turn with me to First Corinthians chapter 13 I'm already there
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I got the whole thing memorized Where did he go?
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See? He's playing the rapture card again dude Hey Haps can you turn your mic up?
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I can hardly hear you Can you hear me now? A little more Can you hear me now?
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I hear you a little better That's full blast dude Alright well I don't know if I can hear him
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You can hear him? Maybe it's just me Yeah it's you, definitely you Jeff Alright Say something
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Say something Braden Hello We are Israel First Corinthians chapter 13
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We'll begin in verse 8 Do you all want to read it? Keep going bro
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You're talking, just send it I've been talking the whole time, how about you read Braden? Okay, First Corinthians 13 8 and on Love never fails
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But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with If there are tongues, they will cease
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If there is knowledge, it will be done away For we know in part And we prophesy in part
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But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away And I'll pause there Because I think that's where most of the conversation goes
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We'll probably read after that as well We definitely have to Do you want me to keep on reading right now?
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You don't have to Just like right here There's no There's no real interpretation
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Of what the perfect is Just right here as we stand With this verse
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In order to understand what the perfect is We'll have to continue to read
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But what What about this Verse Verse 8 and 9
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Well So when we think of this thumbnail That we put for this video I'm supposed to have like a really dizzy head on it
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Because literally my head's been like a bobblehead These last couple of weeks of just changing None of my conclusions have changed
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But the routes that I get there Have changed drastically And that's
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First Corinthians 13 Has changed for me John chapter 3 has changed for me Ephesians chapter 2
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The view has changed for me Like it's been a crazy couple of weeks on this And so I came into this text
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And I came into this text With the same view that we had When we had this conference earlier this year
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When we were asked what the perfect is And we all said Everybody unanimously said The canon, the apostolic age
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That's what we all said And that's always been my I shouldn't say always But after studying this text
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That's what my view had been It wasn't mine Well you weren't on the panel You weren't on the panel?
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You had disappeared You had walked out No I didn't get to the panel
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I was stuck at home With the wife That's right My blood pressure was up That's right
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But everybody there had said it's the canon So when I heard these two guys talking about That it's not the canon
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I was not happy But then I was very challenged to go in and look at this But first you thought that we were playing with you
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Yes Because the whole Israel thing I don't trust you guys anymore I don't know if on November 6th
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When we do this little discussion with JP If you're going to side with them I don't know I don't know
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You guys hurt me really bad It's not alright I still don't know if you're joking with me right now
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It's not good Rick is my only stable rock at church anymore Because he tells me straight up And doesn't mess with me too much
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He doesn't challenge you? No he challenges me But he doesn't mess with me Rick you gotta step up your game homie
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Don't tell him that You gotta step up your game Aaron Don't tell him that Don't let his head start
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Whoop whoop Then he's floating I question him
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If he's gay Oh my gosh And sometimes
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Some things are kind of effeminate So Oh brain
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Don't let your wife hear that I'm out guys That's your rock speaking I'm gay
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I showed him Back in June The Ford Pride Commercial And said
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Ford is gay So he went and got another Ford It's true
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Alright We'll let you continue with the text Anyway Should I just tell
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Should I say what my new thinking is Because my old thinking was that the perfect So I always
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Don't give the interpretation until we Read it What I want us to do is to walk through it
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And so they can see The interpretation So I'll just say what my old interpretation was
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I thought that By the perfect which it could be Also translated as the
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Mature or the Made complete And so but when
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That happens the partial will be done away with I always tied the partial with what will Cease in verse 8 the tongues
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And so I Used to tie it with prophecy And knowledge as well thinking that Okay what was the prophecy about It was the word of God What were the tongues needed for The transmission of the word of God to People that don't have the
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Same tongue and the knowledge was So that people could know God without The word of God yet so when that perfect Comes when that cannot a
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Canonosity of scripture happens at the end of the Apostolic age that's when These things cease and my
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Reasoning for that is In the later text it says that For what we see dimly now
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In a mirror we will Be able to see fully Or but Then face to face and so my thinking was
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In John chapter 21 John says these things have been written To you so that you might not be
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Unbelieving but believing and this is After doubting Thomas just put his finger into The nail prints and into the side of Jesus And so I was sitting there thinking
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Okay these things have been written For us so that when we look at them it's We see Christ here that's the
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Perfect that has to be what the perfect Is and now we'll see face to face When it's canon after the apostolic
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Age however That's just not in the text I Can't say that and that's the view that I Andrew Rappaport I agree with his video
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Fully on that in the past I disagree completely with it it's It's been a trippy couple of weeks for me
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To say the least I still Think cessationism I still don't think tongues See exist today
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In the regulative sense that they were In the first century in the apostolic period But I just get there
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In a different way now and so should we Go through this slowly yeah let's Let's go back through it
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And I want you to point out the The greek words For done away
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And for ceasing To show how they're not the same And And what
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I want people to notice Is as we read this there seems To be The things are coming in threes right you have
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You have prophecy Tongues and knowledge so So that's the three things that it mentions
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And what it does is So before he reads the text What it does is it mentions those
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Three things and then it Goes and exegetes It explains those
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Three things and I think if You're coming at this text not understanding That That's where it's easy
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To misinterpret Right So and so the three things
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Is prophecy Tongues And knowledge and we're going to see
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As he's walking through this And if he doesn't point it out I'll point it out I'll stop him in his tracks and point it out for you
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Yeah yeah Do it So yeah chapter 12 to chapter 13
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It's talking about Well I got something to say about all this but go on I'm sure you do But it's all talking about the building up of the body of Christ That there's many members yet one body
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Chapter 13 talks about how Honestly it starts out And I think this is critical to understanding what's going on In chapter 14 which plays off the text that we're talking about Right now but chapter 13
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At the beginning it talks about if you Have any sort of gift and it doesn't have love It's meaningless it's not It doesn't mean anything and so what
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Paul is using is he's saying look Look at the example of this one thing that you're doing And if it lacks this thing it's useless
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And that's what we see in chapter 14 If you have tongues and it lacks Prophecy useless
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If you have tongues and it lacks knowledge It's useless and that's That's what 13 starts off with It says that If I speak with the tongues
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Of men and of angels but do not Have love I become a noisy Gong or a clanging cymbal
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It's saying that these Things if it doesn't contain This other thing in it it's useless
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And so when you come to verse 8 Which it talks about how Love is the superior of all the gifts
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Verse 8 Says but if there are gifts of Prophecy so notice these three things Like Jeff just said gifts of prophecy
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Gifts of tongues and gifts Of knowledge so there's three things Set out for us here in this verse
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Prophecy will be done away with And I don't have my Logos open right now to say what the greek word is
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But that whole sentence right there they will be done Away with is one greek word If there are tongues they will
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Cease they will cease is A different greek word than they will be Done away with and now notice
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That's the third one knowledge Knowledge it will be done away with So it will be done away with Has been mentioned now twice
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With prophesying and Knowledge not with tongues And then in verse 9 it says
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For we know in part So notice that greek word in that again I don't have logos open right now but that In part is a greek word right there
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And it says we know Know represents knowledge We know in part
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Our knowledge is in part And we prophesy in part So that ties
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Us to verse 8 as the things that Will be done away with in verse 8 right Prophecy knowledge done away with We know in part we prophesy
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In part same greek words for part In part there and then in verse 10 when the perfect or the mature
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Or the made complete comes What will be done away with the same greek word That's used for knowing in part
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And prophesy in part Is the partial that we have The partial will be done away
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With and what is that greek word again The same exact greek words that's used in verse 8 with those of prophecy
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And knowledge and so when I look at this I now have to say Without saying what the perfect is as we'll get
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To it's not talking About tongues being done away with It's saying knowledge and prophecy
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It's not talking about tongues at All and that blew my Mind because I've been always
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Sitting here thinking this is When canon comes tongues Will cease and it's not even
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Talking about tongues being done away With in verse 10 I do think in verse 8 he's talking to the first century church
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Telling them they will cease so it does Cease in the first century However that's not what
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Verse 10 is talking about being done away with that's Only knowledge and prophecy that's talking about Yeah so verse 11
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Will pick up on the tongues Mhm Do you want me to keep on reading?
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Either you or I can it don't matter I'll just keep on going When I was a child
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I used to speak Like a child Notice the word speak Whenever someone's
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Talking in tongues they're speaking Like a child Like a child
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Like Think like a child Reason like a child So two things just happened there thinking like a child
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What is that mimicking in the previous verse Knowledge Reason like a child again we're not saying prophecy
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In this text it's talking about predicting Future things but it's Forth telling of what has happened in the past Regarding the resurrection and so we
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Prophesy in part right in this text It says we reason like a child When I Became a man
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I did away With childish things Again that word I did away Is a
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Connecting word here in the prior text In verse 10 and 8 So it's using the same language
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Over and over and over again So it's basically saying that Speaking in tongues is childish
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Mhm Well I mean let's Stop and look at it
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Hold on are you about to Set off in something into a debate Cause if so just give us
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A minute to finish this out I'll shut up No no no
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I mean because tongues was given For the unbeliever Not for the believer
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So if tongues was given for an Unbeliever and not a believer That's just Yeah Tongues so we'll get into that Tongues is for the unbeliever so verse 12
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For now while we see In a mirror dimly But then so it's a future thing
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Face to face But notice what it's doing right here it says we'll see Alright So this is what
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Hold on Keep reading I'm sorry But then face to face
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Now I know in part so that's the same Greek word know in part But when I will
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Know fully just as I Have but I will know fully Just as I have been fully
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Known speaking present tense So let me
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Just give some quick commentary On chapter 14 because this all plays Into the understanding of what's going on in this text
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Chapter 14 Talks about if you have gifts of tongues Which Paul says is a good thing he says I speak in tongues more than you do
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He says I wish everybody could but he's Saying if you just speak in tongues and it doesn't have Prophecy and knowledge it's nothing
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I would rather have you seek after prophecy Because that's edifying to the church And the signs are a gift
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The tongues Are a sign to unbelievers And so my reasoning in this
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Is what the tongues were For was to transmit The gospel to unbelievers
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In their native tongue And what's going on in this Christian church Is if I was in Hagerman Idaho and all my congregation is
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English and I had the gift Of tongues and when I spoke English I can make it sound be
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Spanish Would there be first of all Any benefit by me speaking Spanish To an
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English congregation? No. Second of all If I was speaking Spanish And it wasn't with prophecy talking about Christ is there any value in it at all?
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No. That's what Paul is Arguing about in this text he's saying Why do you have tongues when no one can even
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Hear you there's no interpreter no one understands What you're saying and so there's no value It's just a noisy gong
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And I would rather have you have prophecy Within it because like he said in the prior text If you have gifts but it doesn't have
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Love it's useless so if you have tongues That don't have prophecy it's useless It doesn't actually build up the body of Christ And so all that being said
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I think he's Saying that tongues aren't a bad thing in the first century But they will cease but the
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Perfect when the perfect comes The knowledge and being done away with or being Yeah being done away with and prophesying being done
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Away with that which is in part is what Verse 12 is talking about And verse 12 is that Right now us as believers
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We know Christ in part We have a relationship with him in part but he Knows me fully when
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I either Die or he comes again I will See him face to face and I will Know him fully just as he does
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See I disagree with that You do? I thought we was on the same page No dude that's it bro
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What page are you on? The fully known is The resurrection of the dead
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Yeah that's what I'm saying Yeah but not if I die and I go to heaven Because I still won't be made complete
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Right I agree with that Made complete is whenever we Like Christ receive our glorious Resurrected body
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So how's it going Rick? Great We having a good time tonight?
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Christ comes before you Okay okay Yes that's what I'm saying about that Man I'm telling you what
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We're a little agitated with each other guys We're a little agitated Rick what are your thoughts on that?
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By just hearing what I just said What are your thoughts on that? Sure sounds good
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Okay Now I think it needs to be gone back over Because I think you went too slow for people to understand
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So just real quick I'll give a quick reiteration In verse 8 and 9
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He mentions Three things Prophecy, knowledge, and tongues It's actually
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Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge Prophecy and tongues Ends with the same Greek words
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Which is we'll be done away with The cease Is different from that And as you walk through this
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He talks about That prophecy That knowing Knowing connects to knowledge
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And prophecy connects to what it says Prophecy and those things are in part So the things that are going to be done away with Are the things that are in part
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And they'll be done away at the resurrection Of the dead As far as tongues
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Tongues are going to cease And he mentions when I was a child I spoke like a child, I reasoned like a child
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So on and so forth But when I became a man I put away childish things Basically calling tongues childish
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Talking about as he matured He's not a child anymore
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He grew up and became a man He did not do the things That children did Speaking of tongues
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Why is it equated to a child? Because a child can be difficult to understand Difficult to understand, correct
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If you're speaking in tongues and no one can understand you That's childish It's not beneficial
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And is that also With the church being Young And the necessity of tongues
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In the early church And then as the church Has matured It doesn't need tongues
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Right Because the church is no longer a child in that sense And also
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Like in the beginning of Corinthians And I pointed this out Like the only thing I knew when I got off that table that day
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Was that the sign gifts Were for the Jews And knowledge was for the Greeks Right I don't like where you go with this
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No, no, no, I'm not saying I go the same place with it Okay Because I still think
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It's the same thing, right I mean, like I'm a
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I'm a barbarian Greek And I And one thing that I love about the Christian faith
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Is the knowledge I love Theology Like I love learning new things
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Right Like for me Like the sign gifts Like that doesn't
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Tickle my hearing, right But I love to study theology
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And so It makes sense to me But Concerning what's taking place here
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You know With tongues being a sign gift Right And as the church matures
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And we see in the book of Acts That the ministry There comes a point in time
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Where the ministry is not Really focusing on the Jews So in that sense
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Because it's not focusing on the Jews The sign gifts There's no need for the sign gifts
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Does that make sense Yay, nay
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I don't like it I don't like you Well we've established this
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Hello So we have Samantha Saying so y 'all
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Think tongues are childish No the scriptures say the tongues are childish Hold on there's more
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Knowledge puffs up Be careful what you say And why would you ever call
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A gift from God childish Can I respond Yeah first of all
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Paul did Second of all The knowledge that we're talking about is a relationship with Christ Which does not puff us up That makes us more humble like Christ So second of all
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When we're talking about tongues being childish We're saying that if they were tongues In the first century that were being spoken
34:41
And no one could understand them That was childish And we're saying that they're known languages too
34:47
And so if we're saying that The tongues that are spoken today In the modern evangelical church
34:52
Yes those are absolutely childish One because they're unbiblical and two no one can understand them Yeah and plus They're not even being done in the order that Paul says
35:01
Like if it was biblical Paul tells you in chapter 14 How it is to be done Two no more than three
35:08
One at a time and there has to be an interpreter And there's
35:13
And If the Holy Spirit Like if you're saying
35:19
That you have the Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit is not Going to go against the word of God The Holy Spirit took part
35:27
In the writing of this word Right the people that That wrote the
35:32
New Testament Paul wrote the New Testament Filled with the Holy Spirit And so the
35:37
Holy Spirit is not going to go Against the Holy Spirit Right Okay so Matt Alley Ford You know our homie
35:47
Matt Ford Our Presby Baby Dipper Says hey y 'all be nice to this lady
35:53
And then She says so only specific tongues So it is
35:59
Biblical Because it's in the Bible Yes So I think what it comes down to I know
36:08
Samantha I love Samantha she's a good girl But She knows that we have some issues
36:16
Concerning theology I mean My view on tongues has never changed
36:24
I don't believe that tongues are for the day I believe what we're seeing Take place in the charismatic churches
36:30
Is unbiblical It's It's babble And I know that because I used to be ordained
36:38
In the assemblies of God Right they teach you how to Speak in tongues Hey Samantha I speak in tongues too
36:46
I'm doing it right now No I'm doing it right now Yeah it's a language right I'm speaking
36:52
English You know And Samantha we don't want to In any way
37:01
Disrespect you but we But if You are partaking
37:06
In what I would call Babble I don't think it's the
37:12
Biblical tongues That's taking place because when you read the book Of Acts It names off I haven't counted probably like 10 to 15
37:21
Different Nations that travel to Jerusalem That were Jews and it says that As they were speaking each heard them
37:29
In their own language In their own language And we can't interpret
37:35
Scripture by feelings Or by what we do And I really didn't want to make this about Tongues but But let me challenge you on something
37:45
So you have Trinitarian Pentecostals you have Oneness Pentecostals which both
37:51
Of them worship a different God Right Trinitarians I would say are Christians Oneness I would say are not
37:56
Christians And then you have a movement called The Way Internationals And I'm going to stick with these three but you can look
38:02
At all these false Religions around the world and they all do The same thing but I'm going to stick with these
38:08
Three because I've witnessed these three I've hung out with Trinitarian Pentecostals who spoke
38:14
Babble I've hung out With Oneness Pentecostals that Spoke Babble and also
38:20
With Way Internationals Way Internationals is basically A mixture between a
38:26
Jehovah Witness And a Oneness Pentecostal All three are Worshipping a different God And all three of them
38:34
Believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit With the evidence of speaking in tongues
38:39
Which one is correct? And could I just say Something real fast Samantha I hear what you're saying you say
38:46
I disagree and feel like you Are being condescending I follow
38:51
Jesus And I don't know about y 'all I worship Jesus He saved me and hey we love
38:58
Jesus we worship him too I just Want you just to think about this for a second Please all right When you look through all throughout
39:06
Scripture you have bookends Genesis to Revelation all right And every time
39:12
Angels or God Spoke to man They spoke to them in their
39:18
Own language in their own language Yeah, all right every single time All right and It's just something to Consider nobody is condescending
39:29
You or Bashing you or anything like this we're coming At this with love gentleness and kindness
39:35
But if Hold on one second Jeff If a lot of people
39:40
Out there are allowed to give Their Understanding of Scripture so are we
39:46
Yeah and we've been planning This conversation for a while And for the most part
39:53
As far as I know you never clicked on Our videos I'm glad you Have clicked on our videos but We don't do this to Basically bash anyone
40:04
Specific This is what we believe Right this is what we believe We don't believe that what's taking place
40:11
In the charismatic church is biblical If I believed it was I would be A part of the charismatic church
40:16
And Matt you are correct By saying that those Are fair answers
40:22
They are There are fair questions on her part Fair answers on our part
40:28
And we should Okay agree to disagree you're right Yeah because we don't want
40:34
This to carry on about tongues If y 'all want we can do An episode solely focused
40:40
On tongues. How many times have we done That already? On tongues? Yeah. I can't never think of I don't know of any
40:46
We talked about cessationism When I went up and looked for bigfoot But not specifically tongues
40:54
But tonight's episode Is basically how we flip flopped And been on a rollercoaster
41:00
Ride with our theology And this is just loop number One in this rollercoaster here recently
41:06
Should we get into the second one? Why don't we get Rick In the conversation
41:11
Where you at Rick? Um I just I don't think it's
41:19
Changing Kind of like what Braden was saying Still the same conclusion
41:26
It was fascinating The words that were used And how they match up with Prophecy Tongues and Knowledge But Yeah so that was interesting
41:41
But it's He shared a little bit with me At church When we talked about it
41:47
Like oh good for you Nice Man Completely changed
41:56
Shocked me We were going crazy I know and then Rick was like Okay cool
42:03
Wait you're telling me this doesn't affect you Like it has affected me Anyway I mean the biggest thing that we can
42:10
Say from this is that the perfect Is not the canon But the perfect is the resurrection
42:16
Of the dead when we are made complete The book of Hebrews chapter 2 tells us That Jesus was made complete through his
42:22
Suffering of death bearing on resurrection Right And I would like to get on with that Like how is it
42:29
That Jesus had to be made complete But that's for another show as well But our being made complete
42:35
Is when we are conformed Truly conformed to the image of Christ And that is at the resurrection of the dead
42:42
Well also I know Haps I think Haps would not say that it's the resurrection
42:48
So and he walked away So we can't even hear what he had to say on it Let him defend it
42:53
No Yes Speak up Oh you don't have a defense
43:01
It's fine You agree with us? Okay let's move on He's giving a silent amen right now
43:08
Thanks Haps So we should look at Should we look at John 3
43:16
Or should we look at Ephesians 2 Oh yeah I forgot about John 3 Yeah listen when I gave Brady my interpretation
43:23
Like I thought he was going to I was not happy again Yeah I was not happy again And there was some mean words
43:30
Being used by yourself towards me Saying that I am a follower of John MacArthur And Rick can answer
43:36
And say that that's probably the rudest thing That you could ever say to me He's a MacArthurite That's Don't you dare
43:46
I like MacArthur Don't call me a MacArthurite But anyway
43:52
John 3 is a good text And I don't know Where you stand on this
43:57
Rick So maybe this would be a good one Do you want to answer Fred real quick? Why can't
44:03
Patrick be the institution Of the kingdom of God at the resurrection And ascension of Christ I think it can't be that Because if That is the perfect And the institution of his kingdom
44:16
I think his kingdom has already been instituted At his death, burial, and resurrection And so I First of all if Paul is saying this
44:24
Past those times Past that date It means that those things are still taking place
44:30
Even though the perfect has already come And he says that when the perfect comes The partial will be done away with So I think logically it doesn't fit in that sense
44:37
And especially for us to today Especially how we're saying what knowledge
44:42
And prophesying is Prophesying according to chapter 14 Is for the edification of the church
44:48
Which I think is Talking about preaching the gospel In chapter
44:55
Chapter 12 Where it even says that the ladies Can prophesy So again I don't think that's future telling
45:01
I think that's just the preaching of the gospel Fourth telling Fourth telling, yep
45:07
And so if it is If those things all cease at the Life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ We still participate in that today
45:15
Which I think would contradict what verse 10 is saying Right Because when it comes
45:22
Knowledge And prophecy will be done away with And also to touch on Caleb He asked about Could it be the
45:33
Hold on let me read that again But also face to face Referring to Christ Yeah that's the second coming
45:39
So when will the resurrection of the dead be It will be at the second coming
45:46
When Christ returns The dead in Christ will rise Right Which I think
45:53
All of this and I would also say contextually I think this all fits very well together Because what comes after chapter 14
45:58
Obviously chapter 15 right So in chapter 15 It talks about how this is the gospel
46:05
The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ According to scriptures And there are some of you that say that there is no resurrection
46:10
Well if there is no resurrection If Christ didn't rise again Then our faith is in vain
46:15
And if he rose again surely we will rise again And then he goes into how There will be a day that we will say
46:21
Oh death where is your sting Oh death where is your victory So it seems consistent To say that the perfect is the resurrection
46:28
Because that's the carrying out Of the context all the way through chapter 15 And along with our
46:35
Interpretation which I think is the biblical Interpretation if you hold to full Preterism then the perfect has already come
46:41
We are already fully known Knowledge and prophecy is done away with And we see ourselves
46:47
As Christ sees us You see right now When God The Godhead looks at Jeff They see me perfectly
46:57
Righteous But when I look in the mirror Or into the mirror of the law
47:03
I see a sinner Alright at the resurrection Of the dead I will be
47:09
I will know myself The way Christ Has always known me
47:15
You see what I'm saying So if someone's a Full preterist this has to have
47:21
Already happened And he just said I am not a full preterist So I don't think we're saying
47:26
I wasn't questioning Fred on that I was just saying In general to go ahead and throw that in Because When the perfect comes
47:36
That is when we will be made Complete so the word perfect there I would translate made complete
47:43
Right and he also He also says in Daniel 9 24 It says that when the Messiah comes He will still have a vision and prophecy which we would agree
47:50
With that Christ is the fulfillment of all righteousness Right but even in the day of Paul Prophecying was happening and so is that Speaking about them telling the future
47:58
Or like Rick said Telling what happened in the past for the Salvation of their sins
48:03
Or Prophecy like the definition Is given to us what prophecy is
48:10
Right here it's in verse 3 But one who prophesies Speaks to men for Edification and exhortation
48:18
And encouragement Preaching I would see it as Preaching Acts 2 42
48:27
They gather together for the teachings Of the apostle So when the apostles were
48:33
Teaching they were exegeting They were explaining scripture That in one sense is
48:39
A term of prophecy what did the Prophets in the Old Testament do God told them something
48:44
They repeated what God told them Right Like that's what prophecy is well listen
48:50
Ladies and gentlemen God has told us something And when we Stand in the pulpit we are repeating
48:57
What God has told us For the What this is the edification
49:02
Exhortation and encouragement Alright now let's go to Hold on Sky I didn't want you to bring that up Haps Sky apologetic said
49:16
Battle of the Beards Haps did you want to give your interpretation
49:24
Of the perfect before we move to John 3 Sure Because you disagree with us
49:30
We're saying it's the resurrection What are you saying Well I want everybody to put on Their thinking caps
49:38
And just place it Upon your head And I think that we should
49:43
Honestly read this From well we can't do it right now But when we look at All of Corinthians First Corinthians And remember there is
49:56
Four letters that was Written to the Corinthians First Corinthians is actually letter
50:01
B Second Corinthians is actually Letter D So this was an ongoing thing
50:08
That Paul was having to discuss With the Corinth church Who was Who was out of control
50:16
They were still the body of Christ And everything But as you read in first Corinthians Chapter 1 and let's just move
50:24
All the way forward This is a letter of correction So he's correcting them On everything now
50:31
Now Just hear me out Brayden stop it I'm so mad
50:38
Just stop it right now So it was He starts off in first Corinthians Going he's
50:47
Talking to them like it because they Would have these things called rhetoric Debates so it's like I'm from I was baptized by Paul.
50:54
I was baptized By Jesus and He's going on and on and he charges Them with arrogance
51:01
And sexual immorality And he says it over and over again first Corinthians All right. Remember it's a
51:06
Letter of correction. All right And So when he comes to Talk about the gifts and he's
51:14
Going on and on about the gifts and everything at the very End he says this Of chapter 12 and I he goes he goes
51:23
But earnestly that's 1231 but earnestly Desire the higher gifts
51:29
And I will Still show you a more Excellent way and then
51:35
He goes in If I speak of the tongues of men And of angels but have
51:41
Not love I'm a noisy Gong or a a clanging Symbol well, we know
51:47
That in their culture because it comes From a pagan culture that the Banging of the symbols
51:52
Was how they would start speaking in Utterances and they'd start speaking in In Babble and that's what
52:00
Pagans used to do Now When he goes on And he says
52:08
Love is patient. Love is kind It never envies never boast It is not arrogant or rude
52:15
It does not insist on Its own ways. It is not Irritable or resentful.
52:20
It Does not rejoice at wrongdoing But rejoices with The truth love bears
52:26
All things believes all things hopes All things and there's all things Amen love never
52:33
Ends now now here We go as for Prophecies They will pass away
52:42
As for Tongues they will cease As for knowledge It will pass away
52:48
For we know in part and we prophesy In part but when the Perfect comes
52:54
The partial will pass away Now Stop right there for a second, and I just Want you to hear me out letter of Correction.
53:03
He actually Says in what was it in? In Uh, let me
53:10
Go to it real fast. I'm sorry in in Chapter Three He actually
53:19
Tells him and remember this is the church that That's floating man. They're in the spiritual gifts and Everything right?
53:25
But I Brothers could not address you as Spiritual people But as people of the flesh as Infants in Christ I fed you with milk
53:35
Not solid food for you were Not ready for it And even now
53:41
You are not ready for it You are still in the flesh So where there's
53:47
Jealousy strife among you Are you not of the flesh And behaving only in a human
53:53
Way, this is the context Of first corinthians right here He's dressing addressing
53:59
A spiritual immature Church. All right They're spiritually immature
54:05
All right Now if they're spiritually immature When we Get to 13
54:12
And he's and he's saying right here Uh love is patient I mean this is what we pursue
54:18
Right here is love Why in the world now just give Me i'm on my soapbox for a second
54:25
Why in the world would he Break into prophecy Right in the middle
54:30
And start talking about either the canon Of scripture or or Uh, um
54:37
Uh, uh, what was your Interpretation again? It's the Resurrection. Okay. Okay Or the resurrection.
54:43
All right When He says this where we know in part We prophesy in part but when the
54:50
Perfect comes now That word perfect does mean Mature means spiritually mature
54:56
Me and no, no, no, it can In the context that we're Reading it in from chapters
55:02
One to chapter 13 All right, it is Talking about spiritual maturity
55:08
All right Or can you All right, not yet He goes but when the perfect comes when the
55:16
When the mature comes the Partial will pass away now This is crazy what he says right afterwards
55:23
I thought Like a child I reasoned like a child When I became a man
55:29
I gave up Childish ways for now We see in a mirror dimly But then face to face
55:36
Now I I know in Part then I shall know Fully even as I have been
55:42
Fully known and then he he rounds It off right here does says nothing about The resurrection says nothing about Anything goes so so Now so so everything regarding He just said faith
55:54
Hope and love Abide in these three But the greatest is love
56:01
Now when you go to 15 The end of the chapter he has To remind him of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is he gives him
56:08
The gospel and then he goes into The resurrection and then He says that Christ Must rule in rain until He puts all his
56:18
Enemies underneath his foot footstep Now This is where my
56:24
PhD And flip -flopping comes All right Now Can that mean
56:32
What you're You guys are suggesting. Yes It can But can it also
56:39
I mean Reading it in context mean Being spiritually mature
56:44
Because you can't Expect somebody that's immature In Christ To know about This that's why he has to reassure them in 15 about the resurrection
56:56
Mean about the gospel of Jesus Christ the Scriptures that Almost be fulfilled and the
57:04
Resurrection because that's that's part of it man And that That the Christ should rule in rain
57:12
And then he goes on and 16 The collection of the saints Yeah, I mean it's just in the
57:18
Final Instructions now concerning our brothers 16 12 now concerning our brothers
57:24
Apollos, I strongly Urged him to visit you with the other brothers But it was not at His will to come now
57:32
We will come with Opportunity When he has opportunity to be
57:38
Watchful stand firm in your in The faith act like men Be strong Let all that you
57:46
Do be done in love. I Mean I look at it in its whole
57:52
Because when you go to second Corinthians he is commit He's like I'm so I'm sad
57:58
I had to come at you with a heavy stick and everything And come at you all like Sideways and everything but look at You repented so that That's my view on it.
58:09
That's how I feel about It We really need to get the john 3 but I want to Just ask a couple questions
58:17
So you think It should be verse 10 Basically But when
58:23
The mature your maturity comes The partial will be done away with Would you say it could be translated that way
58:30
Yeah Okay, what is the partial according to your Understanding Your partial understanding
58:37
Because yeah Yeah, so would you say that That since that But you also said that that can happen
58:45
From individual church to individual church That it's not like a one time significant Church wide correct
58:51
I'm saying for this church This church right here Alright so Hold on I just want to point that out
59:01
So the perfect can happen At individual times At different times for different churches
59:07
So the The prophecy and the knowledge Can say so would you say
59:13
That whenever they were Made mature What is knowledge
59:19
There Knowledge of the Lord Knowledge of the Lord So we no longer need the knowledge of the
59:26
Lord No Because it's going to be done away with Well when the knowledge of the
59:31
Lord comes Do you need the knowledge Of the perfect when the perfect comes
59:36
When the mature comes When the mature comes Prophecy and knowledge will be done away with So if knowledge is of the
59:44
Lord The knowledge of the Lord is done away with Whenever they mature It's more like So you had those that were following John the
59:54
Baptist And they were baptized and everything And then you had Aquila and Priscilla Go oh no no no
01:00:02
Let us tell you what happened I look at it more like that Yeah but this is the knowledge of the
01:00:07
Lord Who is God So would you say that That right now
01:00:14
The church is mature Or can this be something that's Repeatedly happened in individual churches
01:00:21
I think this is Still today I think that this is
01:00:27
Something that was happening With their church Can it be happening still today
01:00:34
Possibly But I know it was happening with this church Right here So would you say that That whenever they became mature
01:00:43
Right here It says now I know in part But then I will Fully know
01:00:49
Also I will fully know As I also have been known So do they have perfect knowledge
01:00:56
Of who they are Do they know who they are Perfectly The way that this text is describing
01:01:03
Well you know when it's talking about In love And it's talking about In faith the faith hope and love
01:01:10
Abide these three but the greatest Is love and they're not showing That all right
01:01:16
But when they they come to realize it like They did in second Corinthians All right, it showed in their fruit
01:01:22
It showed in there they were being hospitable They were welcoming timothy That was that was coming
01:01:28
All right that they repented Now now Could I be wrong
01:01:34
Real quick that's where Real quick so in chapter 15 where it Talks about the gospel and the resurrection of the dead
01:01:41
Verse In 15 Excuse me You talk about chapter 15
01:01:46
Yeah chapter 15 So basically at the end where it talks about Like in verse 48 it says as the
01:01:53
Earthly all Excuse me as is The earthly so also
01:02:00
Are those who are earthly Right so so at the resurrection Of the dead both the just And the unjust are going to come the sheep
01:02:07
And the goats and it says as is the Earthly so this is speaking about those That are under Adam right
01:02:13
They're coming their federal head Is Adam as the earthly The man of dust so also the
01:02:19
Earthly and as the heavenly So also those who Are who are heavenly
01:02:25
So that's the just and the unjust and Just as we have Born the image of the
01:02:31
Earthly when we're born we have the Image of we're born with the Broken image of God Which is the image of Adam and I've been teaching
01:02:39
On that I'd be happy to Do that another time We also will bear the image
01:02:45
Of the heavenly so this is speaking about The resurrection of the dead now Would you say at that moment when
01:02:51
They are when we are Fully glorified Resurrected like Christ Was will we
01:02:59
Have perfect knowledge Of who we are will we see ourselves As he sees us
01:03:05
Well the whole Thing is is we have perfect knowledge right Now we're seated with him in the
01:03:11
Heavenlies we're heirs To the throne of God yeah we don't have Perfect knowledge but I can tell you
01:03:17
What the scriptures say But this No it's not speaking
01:03:23
Of the Bible listen I'm talking About so do you Believe in the saint and sinner reality
01:03:30
Right we Are saints because we are credited With righteousness by faith
01:03:35
In Christ we believe As Abraham was credited with righteousness By believing so to you
01:03:41
And I but we still wear this Garment of flesh and Sometimes we give in to this
01:03:47
Garment of flesh right Hallelujah and so we live in Saint and sinner reality
01:03:52
All right when God sees me Perfectly righteous in Christ When I see myself
01:03:59
I see a sinner All right but I'm saying at the Resurrection I will see
01:04:04
Myself perfectly Righteous and I don't see myself Like that now I know
01:04:10
I am Perfectly righteous in the eyes of God but I don't see myself Like that whenever I come about the
01:04:16
Grave glorified Then I will see myself for that Yeah I think that's
01:04:22
Totally reading into the text right there It is not man I think it totally is
01:04:29
I think it is We're gonna have to set up a debate We gotta go to John 3 we need to set up a debate
01:04:34
I will just say this real fast can I say something Real fast you did Challenge me and that's why
01:04:40
I changed my Position because nowhere in the scripture is it Talking about the canonosity of scripture so I Appreciate you doing that but you can't
01:04:46
Say that resurrection isn't taught in the scripture Because in chapter 15 that's the whole Chapter on this And I'm saying it's building
01:04:53
I know I know I know I know you didn't I'm just saying I'm just saying
01:04:58
I appreciate your position Because you pushed me to get to the position I'm at right now And I'm trying to pull you up with The whole thing is look at this guys look at this
01:05:06
The whole thing is Is I accept your apologies And You know
01:05:14
And it's okay dude you're at this You're right here I'm like JP I'm like way up here dude
01:05:20
So like I'm way up here alright Alright let's go to John 3 If we need to get back on this another time
01:05:26
We will Hold on guys I have to jump off I have to jump on another show real fast
01:05:32
Oh No it's not that No I have a meeting
01:05:38
With the passing the torch With Building the page right now this is the only time
01:05:44
I got Alright we'll see ya Alright love you guys man Love you too Just kick him out now
01:05:52
Don't let him leave You need to repent and believe Like we do That's a fact
01:06:02
He's still talking He doesn't know he's not even on it Oh is he still talking you kicked him off That's messed up dude
01:06:09
Alright John 3 Okay John 3 So how does the conversation
01:06:17
Of John 3 start Look Hey can we just say at the very
01:06:23
Beginning Time out yes I will say that You were right I am wrong on this
01:06:29
One occasion I was right on All millennialism and you switched from post millennialism I did I did
01:06:35
But we still But concerning all millennialism We still have a different View because You're still reforming
01:06:44
You're still reforming I understand We're getting there You need to reform My modified idealism
01:06:50
I know You got Doug Wilson's Interpretation Not even close bro
01:06:59
You got Doug Wilson's interpretation Alright so we were just chatting it up And I don't
01:07:05
We were talking about Ephesians 2 And I think and then we got On to the topic of John 3
01:07:10
And you said that you Saw it in light of Ezekiel 36 Which I agree with I at that time
01:07:16
I still Agreed with it that it was in light of Ezekiel 36 But not really But not to the extent that you do As I do now either
01:07:25
It's definitely there But I used to see John 3
01:07:30
Namely verses 1 through 8 Talking about Physical birth being the birth Being born of the water and then spiritual birth
01:07:38
Being born of the spirit And so now John Hunter's interpretation I don't know why you gotta say that At every chance you can
01:07:47
That is his interpretation Okay fair enough It might be but it's not mine anymore
01:07:53
And I didn't have to look At the commentary to convince me of that I'm just saying
01:08:00
I've held from this view Like I think I remember going through this With Matt Slick years ago
01:08:05
So this has always been my thought on this I mean I've defended against it With LDS people often
01:08:13
But It's just not there in the text From what I can see now I don't know if Rick Rick what
01:08:21
Do you see John 3 talking about physical birth With being born of the water and then Spiritual birth being talked about With being born of the spirit
01:08:29
Or do you see those as the same event Or simultaneous event Let me pull it up Yeah Move on to something else
01:08:44
I'll get there in a second Yeah you're good because It shook me when I read this Well not when
01:08:50
I read this But when Jeff was saying what he was saying It was like that is really convincing So in the book of John Nowhere in the book
01:09:00
No I was mad In the back of my mind I was like dang that's a good argument But I can't admit it yet I gotta fight it to death right now
01:09:07
But John 3 When it talks about the water Nowhere else in all 66 books of the bible
01:09:13
Mainly nowhere in the book of John Does it ever talk about water being tied To physical birth
01:09:18
And that's what started to get me I can't exegetically tie this
01:09:23
To any other place in scripture As what being born of the water means And so This is just right after my third son was born
01:09:31
And my wife's water broke at home And so I saw like water right And so I'm like man
01:09:37
This is John 3 like this is being born of the water Like literally just said that two weeks Prior to this
01:09:43
And I don't Think that's what it teaches anymore So like I said I've got a bobblehead
01:09:49
How does that change your interpretation Of that or your Application So again just like 1
01:09:56
Corinthians 13 I'm still a cessationist I still think that there's only one birth here I just I have a different means and route
01:10:04
To get to that conclusion now I just feel defeated in my theology Yeah so I would say
01:10:11
Verse 3 Is speaking of the ethical Transformation right Let me make sure
01:10:17
I got that right No no no excuse me Verse 3 is forensic transaction
01:10:22
Right unless you are Born again you cannot see Right With your eyes
01:10:29
The kingdom of God and once you're born again God removes the blinders From your eyes
01:10:35
So this is the Regeneration this is that By grace you have been saved
01:10:41
Right and then Verse 5 when it talks about Being born of the water and the spirit
01:10:48
Well so The water there Is referencing back to Verse 3 and I'll get into that In just a second
01:10:56
But when it talks about Born of water and the spirit Being born of the spirit
01:11:02
The spirit comes by faith Right over and over Throughout the scriptures
01:11:08
You receive the spirit by faith And what I'll take you to My interpretation is
01:11:14
Titus 3 5 which says He saved us not by works Which we did in righteousness
01:11:20
But according to his mercy Through the washing Of regeneration
01:11:27
And the renewal by the Holy Spirit and so What I was telling Braden was
01:11:33
Is that as Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus As John records
01:11:39
Jesus is speaking about Something Covenantal that was recorded
01:11:45
In Ezekiel chapter 36 So if you Want to turn to Ezekiel chapter 36
01:11:53
We'll see What Jesus What would have been on the mind of Christ Whenever this conversation
01:11:59
Took place And so in Ezekiel chapter 36 The main
01:12:05
The main part is verse 25 But You normally like to read from verse 24 too right
01:12:11
I think so yeah I'm not open there but yeah do it Verse 24 and I will take you
01:12:17
From the nations and gather You from all the lands And bring you into your own lands
01:12:24
Then I will sprinkle clean water On you and you will be
01:12:29
Clean I will cleanse you from all Your uncleanness and all
01:12:35
Your idols more over I will give you a new heart And put a new spirit within You okay so before I read the
01:12:43
Rest I want you to notice what he Did when he says I will sprinkle Clean water on you
01:12:49
And then he exegeted what that Meant so notice verse 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you
01:12:55
He's telling him he's going to do something Here's the exegete Excuse me I will sprinkle
01:13:01
Clean water on you and you will be clean Here's the exegesis I will Cleanse you from all your
01:13:07
Uncleanness and all of your Idols so in regeneration The first thing that takes place
01:13:13
Is he cleanses us from All of our uncleanness And all of our idols and then he
01:13:19
Names off two other things that he's going to do And then he'll explain what they are He'll name them first and then explain
01:13:25
Them more over I will give You a new heart and Put a new spirit within You so now right here he's going to Explain the new heart
01:13:34
I will remove Your heart of stone From your flesh
01:13:39
And give you a heart of flesh And I will put my spirit Within you and cause
01:13:45
You to walk in my statutes And you will be careful to do My judgments so first I Want to point out
01:13:52
He removes the heart of stone A dead heart Now what is the law written on Stone right
01:14:01
So Whenever Israel is accused by Paul in chapter 10 of Romans of establishing
01:14:11
Their own righteousness Right they're keeping the law Of God the law that's written on their heart
01:14:17
In order To establish their own Righteousness with God so the
01:14:23
Prophecy is he's going to remove their Heart of stone their heart of self Righteousness he's going to give
01:14:29
Them a heart of faith and we know from Jeremiah and Hebrews that he Writes that same law on That on the heart of faith
01:14:37
Right I mean on the Heart of flesh so What my interpretation is is he
01:14:43
Removes the heart of self righteousness And he gives us a heart of Faith so this is where God grants
01:14:49
To us faith in order To believe right But in order to receive the
01:14:54
Holy Spirit you have to believe First it's all throughout the New Testament And the moment we receive the heart of faith
01:15:01
What happens he puts His spirit in us and what Does his spirit do it causes
01:15:06
Us to keep his commandments Meaning we're not keeping them In order to To earn
01:15:15
Righteousness but we're keeping Them we're not keeping them really I mean It's the Holy Spirit in us causing us
01:15:21
To keep the law for the Right reason I would add And I think that's what
01:15:26
Jesus is Speaking about when he's speaking To Nicodemus Because I would say the regeneration
01:15:33
Is what the prophets would call a Circumcised heart And also in Colossians So we need
01:15:41
Circumcised hearts well how does that take place In the washing Of regeneration he removes
01:15:47
The heart of stone gives you the heart Of flesh which is faith And he puts his spirit in you and it
01:15:53
Causes you to keep his commands And so right There the washing of regeneration
01:15:59
That would be the forensic transaction And then him putting his spirit Giving you the new heart
01:16:05
Which allows you to Enter into that covenant by faith Alright Go ahead
01:16:14
Sounds good Sounds good to me But also notice the order
01:16:19
Because a lot of reformed people talk about The order of salutis The true order of salutis
01:16:25
Is laid out right here it's regeneration Faith Then the Holy Spirit Dwelling in us
01:16:32
Dwelling in us yes Yeah so what I had always seen And I still think that's all one
01:16:38
Event of being born again I still think it's all that One event but if you're going to try to Time it out separate it it's wise
01:16:46
To go with what scripture describes it as An order of and I agree with you On that Jeff I'm sorry
01:16:52
I repent of Pushing back on you as hard as I did That's basically what Caleb is saying he's asking How does you know so the
01:17:00
The lineup The order is regeneration Faith Holy Spirit But it happens like that It's outside of time and space
01:17:08
Right right But it happens like that So faith comes by hearing
01:17:14
And hearing of the word of God That's that's Romans 10 17
01:17:19
Paul says Did you receive the spirit by works of the wall Or by hearing of faith It's hearing of faith
01:17:25
So while someone Is preaching the gospel or You might pick up a gospel track or you
01:17:31
Might pick up the Bible and you read the gospel Whatever that moment is Right whenever whenever You hear the gospel
01:17:39
God Regenerates you he sprinkles you with Clean water removes your heart of stone gives
01:17:45
You faith and you receive the Holy Spirit that's the Order but in Time it's a snap of the finger
01:17:53
Right I like what Matt just said I think that's a pretty good Example of that heat and Fire happen at the same time but fire
01:18:01
Is the first cause That's good That's good Matt I'm glad you're reforming
01:18:07
Brother I love Matt I love Matt too We had some disagreements
01:18:15
Which that so playing On top of that that that really gives Lenway into the area
01:18:20
Of Another section of scripture that we just Recently changed because you quoted
01:18:26
Romans 10 17 While also Hebrews Four is it Hebrews 4 17 or 4 10
01:18:32
That the word of God is sharper than any two -edged sword Hebrews 4 12 4 12 and separates
01:18:38
The soul from spirit I don't Know if we want to go there yet or if we're too late
01:18:44
The show tonight to keep on Going Yeah It's been a rough couple of weeks
01:18:50
Yeah yeah so we're we're struggling With some things concerning our own
01:18:55
Spirit Before Regeneration I think it's probably gonna be best to save That to at least after the
01:19:04
Debate because I'm afraid if we go Deep into that And if JP And Moeller watches this
01:19:13
You see what I'm saying Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, so So it's probably best It's probably best if we save That for another time.
01:19:21
Okay Rick what was your old view? Did you have a new view On John 3 now or has that been always your view
01:19:27
As Ezekiel 36 because if it's always been Your view I'm mad that you haven't shared that with me I Think I had heard something like that At some point but I've I've kind of There's been
01:19:44
Well anyway I've challenged a guy on it A while ago some years back
01:19:50
That basically You had to have the If you didn't understand the cultural
01:19:56
Context of something That you had to know All these things extra biblical
01:20:02
To know the true Intent of Scripture and what they would actually do is Twist Scripture So to say the exact opposite of what the clear text says
01:20:10
So like With Women preaching You know like I don't permit a woman to teach
01:20:17
That's the clear so what's what Paul says And so we'll know if you look in the culture And you look here in this case
01:20:24
And this was happening In here It actually means exact opposite of what it says
01:20:30
And so I kind of Been since then Like if you have
01:20:37
Scripture And you're on an island And you're not super Like you can read that you're going to get the
01:20:44
You'll get the gospel You'll get the basic meaning All these other things they help us to have
01:20:49
And it should deepen that understanding And so I've been trying to Look at the bigger picture
01:20:56
Of Scripture and not try to get Into too much of the minutia Of something And so I think
01:21:03
I probably heard that sometime But just reading it I've just been kind of Doing the bigger text Going over a chapter
01:21:10
And so You know I read that and okay He's talking about You know most surely
01:21:17
I say to you Unless one is born again he can't see The kingdom of God Nicodemus said to him How can a man be born when he is old
01:21:23
Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb And be born so Nicodemus has that in mind That okay do I need to have a physical birth again
01:21:29
And so then when Jesus says Most surely I say to you unless one is born Of water and the spirit he cannot enter
01:21:35
The kingdom of God and so Just doing a broader overview Of it is like okay well water
01:21:41
Is just talking about physical birth And ultimately The big picture doesn't change
01:21:47
Anything it doesn't change okay well Now I got the gospel wrong But I do think that Ezekiel is right
01:21:55
On that And so it's not something I've thought A ton about the last Few years
01:22:02
On this section But I think that Is the proper understanding
01:22:08
Of it it's not talking about the water is not talking About physical birth but it's about the washing The cleansing and Brain you'll be happy to know that that's what
01:22:16
John MacArthur thinks too Well actually
01:22:21
You agree with him now About Ezekiel but he doesn't Connect he doesn't connect
01:22:28
Well at least So at least In 2013
01:22:34
He didn't connect Ezekiel with John chapter 3 Hopefully He kept reforming but Well I have
01:22:44
The born of water and spirit Jesus referred not to literal water Here but to the need for cleansing
01:22:49
Ezekiel 36 24 -27 When water is used figuratively in OT It habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing
01:22:55
Especially when used in conjunction with the spirit Is that his study Bible in John 3? Yeah So I'm speaking of a sermon
01:23:03
That I heard him preach Because I had just Because I had just As some of y 'all know
01:23:11
I was ordained Church of God, Assemblies of God Trinitarian Pentecostal And I was involved with Planting a church
01:23:21
Preaching through John when I got to John 3 And I was preaching that message That's what
01:23:27
I preached I preached that the water Was physical birth And And I thought
01:23:35
I had the correct interpretation Either way it went against what the Assemblies of God were teaching
01:23:41
And then I heard MacArthur Preach and he said that same thing At that time I said yeah that's what
01:23:47
I believe And then that's whenever The The That Strange fire conference came out
01:23:56
And so that right there Watching Steve Lawson Stand behind the pulpit capture my attention
01:24:02
Just blew me away because I'm used to Being out of Pentecostal church And folks running around the room with the Bible and preaching
01:24:08
Yeah Right and which introduced me To you know R .C.
01:24:13
Sproul And some other great Reformed folks and which got me Interested in Reformed theology
01:24:19
And so like it was the The flame That Sparked my
01:24:28
Growth and Maturity and so Whenever I come to the conclusion
01:24:33
And listen I just now started preaching Through the book of John a year ago Up until I got to John Chapter 3
01:24:40
I believe that The water was physical birth But once I started
01:24:47
Doing the Exegesis I was like No there's no way It's got to be physical birth now
01:24:53
The MacArthur study Bible is wrong And also
01:24:58
I do want to say this I do want to say this Jeff this is the second time in two weeks
01:25:03
That you have wrongly accused me of holding up To the position of MacArthur And I Look All I'm saying is
01:25:12
I need repentance To be granted to you And I will be praying for that Rick My solid rock up there
01:25:22
Is that one of the newer study Bibles Or is that one of his other versions I don't know
01:25:27
I'm trying to find the publication date On it I'm not seeing it Is it an
01:25:32
NKJV All I'm saying is First probably the newer version It's the updated edition
01:25:39
So 1 Corinthians 13 You guys just threw out the canon That's John MacArthur's view
01:25:44
And then it wasn't It was actually some other view And then Y 'all be just making me mad
01:25:52
I'm just going to not take those Accusations of being a MacArthurite seriously anymore So you're not a 5 point
01:25:58
MacArthurite Absolutely not MacArthur says
01:26:05
I'm not He says I'm not a self respecting Calvinist Because I'm not a dispensational pre -millennialist
01:26:11
I'll be honest with you I don't understand how dispensational pre -millennialists
01:26:17
Are Calvinist Because I think Consistency matters
01:26:22
And I think that covenant theology Is where Like if Calvinism Had a bed to lie in It would be laying in covenant theology
01:26:32
Right So I'm not a Calvinist Because of MacArthur I'm a
01:26:42
Calvinist because I would say Listen Matt Baptist covenant theology
01:26:51
Anyways You want to close it down? Yeah let's do it
01:26:56
Rick you got anything else to say? I don't think so Well I just want to remind people
01:27:02
That the 6th The 6th Next month
01:27:08
Next month This coming up Monday I think
01:27:14
It's going to be at 7 o 'clock Brayden and I will be having a discussion With two other guys
01:27:19
On the Gospel Truth Network 7 o 'clock Central Standard Time It's 6 o 'clock
01:27:25
Central Standard Time 7 o 'clock Central Standard Time On the subject
01:27:30
Of Calvinism If I'm not mistaken It's going to be two and a half hours
01:27:35
And each point gets 30 minutes Discussion Prayers up Pray Pray that it will be a fruitful conversation
01:27:45
On both sides From what we see They don't hardly
01:27:51
They don't Like when they're engaging people They cut them off And not let them fully get out
01:28:00
Their statement Pray that we'll be able to Have our time
01:28:07
To speak Other than that Hallelujah Hallaback!