Dead Men Walking Podcast & the Commercialization of Christianity: Conley Owens The Dorean Principle

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00:15

How's it going, Mr. Greg? Good. How you doing, man? Doing awesome, man. Started doing something this evening that is a, it's just a great time for me.

00:27

What's that? We were just going through some closets, getting rid of some stuff. Yeah.

00:33

We talked about how you're a minimalist. I absolutely love it, man. I love getting in there, getting rid of stuff that's just sitting around.

00:40

You're just like, why is this even in the closet? You know, like, I mean, I kind of get stressed out when

00:45

I walk in your backyard. I mean, I see the shed, I see the barn, I see the, you know, the, uh, the other garage.

00:51

I'm like, oh, it's very clean. Yeah, for sure. But I would always be like, what is inside of those things? I need to get rid of, you know, like, it would stress me out.

00:58

I'll tell you what, when we all have to run to the hills and survive on solar panels and a clean brook water,

01:04

I'm going to, I'm going to come to you because you know how to live with just four things. I mean, it's, it's, it's common, but no,

01:12

I'm joking, but yeah, man. So anyway, what'd you do today? Oh, I work on a door.

01:18

You know what you try, you want to rest on the Lord's day. Yeah. Didn't do any real estate stuff.

01:24

But I did look at this pocket door that had come unlatched. I said, I'm going to attack that. I'm going to take off some trim and I got about three and a half hours into it.

01:32

And I went, why did I, why did I do this to myself? But I got it done about an hour before you came over.

01:38

Somebody out there is like, he was working on the pocket door for three and a half. I'm not a craftsman.

01:44

Okay. I'm a talker. I'm a salesman. I sell the product. I don't fix the product. There you go. Okay. I like it.

01:49

But I got it done. Got a few other things around the house done. So that's good, man. Awesome. Cool. So we have on the line today, he's a pastor of Silicon Valley reformed

02:00

Baptist church. He has a new book out called the Dorian principle, or are we supposed to say it like kind of like Greek, like Dorian Dorian, Dorian, Doreen, Doreen, Doreen, like Doreen virtue.

02:14

Yeah. Yeah. But it just, it was such a cool subject matter. He reached out to me and I had seen him on some other podcasts and went, yeah, that'd be great to have him on here.

02:26

So on the line right now is pastor Connelly Owens. How are you, sir? I'm fine. Thanks.

02:31

Yeah. And I'm like you said, a pastor at Silicon Valley reformed Baptist church and it's Silicon not silicone. That's Silicone.

02:37

Southern California. Silicon. I'm so sorry. Silicon is the Northern California. Yeah. Oh, I think that's a difference between like a building material too, right?

02:47

That's a, no, it's a, yeah, it's not just pronunciation. I'm joking that they do a lot of plastic surgery in Southern California.

02:52

There we go. There it is. California jokes. Yeah. Yeah. California. Oh man.

02:59

So yeah, we're gonna have to get into a little bit how you're holding up there in California with you know, with your, with your governor out there, what did they call him?

03:08

New Salini? Yeah. New Salini. We got, we got a little new Salini out here and right, right.

03:14

Yeah. Well, yeah. The, the, the miss Gretchen Wilson. Yeah. You know, but before we do that, we're going to get into a little newsy news kindly feel free to jump in.

03:23

We might even throw it over to you. If you want to comment. Want to do it, Jay? Yeah. Let's go. The news.

03:28

The news. The news. The news. The news. News. News. News.

03:37

News. News. News. News. Newsy news. Tom Askell approved, newsy news. And I will keep saying that every time.

03:44

Every episode? Every episode. Check it. As long as, as long as that clip from Reformed Funny Means keeps racking up views, we're going

03:51

It is pretty cool though. It is pretty cool. Tom Askell. Our listeners probably get sick of me saying that. All right, so let's get to the first one.

03:58

I'm going to start out here. Now, I remember you and I jokingly said when we started this podcast in the middle of COVID, we said, where's

04:30

Kenneth Copeland and Todd White and Bethel, send them to the front lines. Let's do this, man.

04:37

Well, actually, Kenneth Copeland did, right? You remember? Oh, yeah.

04:42

He blew on COVID. And we said a kind of tongue -in -cheek. And, of course, all those churches shut down for six months, ran and hid.

04:50

It was kind of crazy. Shut down their healing rooms? Shut down the healing rooms for COVID. They're growing out legs, but can't grow back lungs,

04:57

I guess. I don't know. Sorry, that sounds a little harsh. So he's on bedrest for three months.

05:03

Yeah, we're praying for him. We've grown a little bit over this podcast. We'd probably launch into a five to eight minute bit on Todd White, but we'd say we're praying for him.

05:12

We hope he sees God in this. I hope God uses this exactly how it needs to be.

05:18

I don't hope. I know God well. But it's always just a little ironical.

05:23

Is that a word? Can I say ironic? Ironic. It's a little bit ironic. Don't you think?

05:29

It's like ray. Sorry. We're not going back to the 90s. When you have a faith healer that says, hey, look at every single person should be physically healed.

05:42

Todd said that multiple times. We know we've talked about Bill Johnson at Bethel saying that multiple times.

05:48

And then, you know, Bill Johnson, who has glasses, we take health advice, you know, right? He's going to heal your eyes that will throw your glasses away.

05:56

But yeah, you know, just kind of be watching that situation. I know last year, remember, Todd had a brush with Charles Spurgeon, and we thought he might have turned the corner on something.

06:05

But boy, did he go back and he came back. What do you think, Connelly? What do you think of when the when the faith healers come down with the illness and they can't do anything about it?

06:14

Do they not have enough faith? Well, you know, if you have the right faith, eventually, you will be completely physically well for all eternity.

06:23

I agree with you. For now, we should send them to the front front lines. There you go.

06:28

Amen. You got anything on that, Jay? What do you think? Yeah, no, I'm there with you guys, man. I really, you know,

06:34

I have a heart for Todd. I mean, Todd was at first when I first got regenerated,

06:40

I'll be honest, like for six months, I accidentally dove into the NAR. And Todd was one of those teachers that, you know, was teaching me that different kind of doctrine.

06:51

And then and then I was, you know, I found reformed teaching and, you know, got my got set straight.

06:59

But, but, you know, I still have a heart for Todd. And I just pray that, that he that he comes out of this well.

07:05

And that hopefully, yeah, like you said, which is odd, because I mean, the

07:10

Apostle Paul talked about fire tunnels and grave soaking all the time. I know every day. He's going to get into it for us.

07:16

All good. Yeah. Let's move on to the second story. What else? Second story. What we got here is in a first man receives a heart from a genetically altered pig.

07:27

What? Yeah. The breakthrough may lead one day to new supplies of animal organs for transplant into human patients.

07:36

A 57 year old man with life threatening heart disease has received a heart from a genetically modified pig, a groundbreaking procedure that offers hope to hundreds of 1000s of patients with failing organs is the first successful transplant of a pig's heart into a human being.

07:54

The eight hour operation took place in Baltimore on Friday. And the patient David Bennett, senior of Maryland was doing well on Monday, according to surgeons at the

08:04

University of Maryland Medical Center. Yeah, I mean, they go on, but it

08:09

I guess it's working just like a heart is supposed to. I mean, that even for his body. Yeah. Okay.

08:15

First of all, that freaks me out a little bit. Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's got to be some side effects. I mean, a heart of a young pig.

08:21

I mean, is he just eating roast beef all the way home? Or yeah, I don't know. Can you, can you actually have bacon and stuff then?

08:28

Because I mean, yeah, I mean, it's no, but more seriously, like what, what, where, where do

08:34

Christians draw the line on that? When you start, uh, you know, modifying DNA and having heart transplants of other animals.

08:40

I mean, that stuff is, uh, it can get really freaky, really quick. You know, we talk about Elon Musk a lot on this pod, not a lot, but been brought up.

08:49

He's looking at doing things with technology, playing God, playing God, essentially.

08:55

What do you think Connelly, would you, uh, would you take a pig's heart if you needed one or would you just keep your maker?

09:02

Well, I would, I would enjoy going to see him, but, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't see this as substantially different than a skin graft or a robot heart.

09:10

Right. Which a lot of people have had that for a while now. Yeah. It's when you start, uh, yeah, doing more creative things with embryos and DNA and stuff that yeah.

09:20

I'd be more concerned. Yeah. No, there is a difference between sustaining life, I would say, and trying to create a different, right.

09:26

Exactly. Oh, cool. Give me a couple of horse legs so I can be a little bit taller, you know, man, we are going back to that.

09:38

Not a great first impression. Yeah. Right. Right. Let's keep it.

09:44

Oh no. I'm going to have to talk to my elders about this one. All right. This one here, this is going to be our last story, but I just thought it was interesting because, uh, if you go back in our, uh, in our video archive and audio archive, we talked a lot about there, you know, in the very beginning about that free money and, and what was going to happen and the economics of it and inflation.

10:05

And now we're seeing it in Breitbart, which, uh, it just happened to come across this. I don't really read them, but I saw it pop up on my feed.

10:12

The prices of cars and trucks continue to soar in December data release Wednesday showed the department of labor's consumer price index show that the prices of new cars and trucks jumped higher in December, rising 1 % for the month compared to 12 months ago, prices are up 12 % on new cars.

10:28

Prices are up 25 % to 37 % in some areas on used cars.

10:33

And people are complaining about bread, the price of bread. It's like, but then they run out and grab a brand new truck for 80 grand.

10:42

You're just like, I don't like, yeah, me neither. Oh my gosh. Could you imagine spending 80 grand on a liability?

10:48

No, I couldn't, but, uh, I like my $3 ,000 minivan. That's paid off.

10:56

I think, I think, uh, there's a lot of Proverbs about being wise and steward of your money and discerning.

11:02

We're definitely going to get into all that. And I think it's good. And I think people with that attitude are going to have to, uh, you know, with that, just kind of spend it attitude is really gonna have to start looking at some stuff because I think economically we have some rough times ahead.

11:15

Um, when you see this is technically hyperinflation. Now they don't call it that because the mainstream media does have some agendas that they have to get across, but anytime something increases 25 to 40%, uh, within a few months, that is a form of hyper inflation.

11:30

Well, the data that came out, I really think they definitely skew the numbers for sure. I mean, uh, month over month, they said it went up like 0 .3

11:38

% or something, but there's no way. I mean, especially with what's been going on, uh, at the, in the grocery stores, in the bread aisle, you know, you can see it there.

11:49

But, uh, so Connelly out in California, how's the supply chain and the COVID stuff? And how's the gas prices?

11:54

Oh, yeah, it's, it's pretty bad. I mean, well, gas has always been bad and now it's worse. I mean, I just stopped looking at gas prices a long time ago because it's just so ridiculous.

12:02

Um, but I went to get Japanese food the other day and tried to order Udon and they didn't have Udon for the past two months because they couldn't get a truck driver to deliver it.

12:10

So it's, it's, it is pretty wild. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. That sounds just like a

12:16

California problem. Doesn't it? Oh man. I love Udon. Yeah.

12:22

So good. Yeah. I guess, I guess it's a little first world problems, it's all good. Yeah. Look, look at Connelly.

12:29

I mean, the supply chain is affecting us all differently. You know, some people going without heat and water, you couldn't get your sushi.

12:35

That's, you know, I get it. Yeah. Let's, uh, yeah, it's, it's pretty unjust, uh, to take other people's money and give it to other people.

12:45

A lot of people, because I have, I have a lot of kids, you know, I have seven kids. Uh, a lot of people assume that I was going to get a lot out of this and they would ask me,

12:52

I was like, you know, that's, that's not how it works. Um, I have, uh, another job that pays well.

12:57

So outside of being a pastor. So yeah, I didn't get any of it. Well, yeah,

13:03

I think it's unconstitutional. You know, the constitution gives Congress the right to coin money. It never gets Congress the right to, uh, it gives anyone the right to, um, print money.

13:11

And I said, Congress, it gives the government the right, whatever, whichever entity. Right. No, absolutely.

13:17

So let's get into that. We all done with those. Yeah. Yeah. We're good. That was the newsy news.

13:23

Cool. So pastor Connelly Owens on the podcast tonight has a new book out called

13:28

Dorian print the Dorian principle talking about the commercialization of the church of Christianity, um, of religion and pastor, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

13:39

I know you just got into yet. You have kids, you're out in California, but give us a little bio of yourself. So listeners know who you are.

13:45

Sure. Yeah. My name's Conley Owens. I came from, uh, Virginia, but I've been here in Sunnyvale, California for the past 11 years, almost 12 years.

13:54

I live with my wife and seven kids here. And I'm also a software engineer at Google, which, uh,

13:59

Lord willing, I'll be able to pursue full -time ministry. But, uh, as for now, that's not the Lord's providence.

14:05

Awesome. And what can, let's just get it. Let's get it rolling right off the top.

14:11

What made you write this book or why did you want to write about this subject and what is it about?

14:16

Give us the overview. Sure. So, uh, just a little bit of backstory. I've been involved in software for a long time.

14:23

And if anyone in your audience is familiar with software and open source software, there's a lot of, uh, creative and innovative things that have been done with software licensing.

14:33

Cause any other, um, any other engineering field, you're allowed to reverse engineer things. You can open up the hood of your truck, see how it works, put it back together.

14:42

If you do that with software in the process, you create a copy and then you violate copyright law. So software has always been really inhibited in that sense until people started making open source software where you were allowed to use it in this way.

14:56

And so having this idea that you could take different approaches to copyright made me pretty dissatisfied with the way a lot of ministers approach copyright, uh, using it, you know, in order to capitalize on this product that they're making this teaching.

15:09

And for a long time, I felt like this was just my own private opinion that it should be done differently.

15:14

And it's not really something I could, uh, bind other people's consciences with. But then

15:20

I started seeing in scripture, the Bible has a lot to say about the way ministries need to approach money. And that was, that was kind of the reason

15:28

I think my eyes were fairly ready to see what scripture had to say about the matter. So what does scripture say about the matter?

15:37

What, what, what are you seeing in the modern Christian church that w that you would say?

15:42

And I'm, and I'm assuming, uh, the title of the book, is that from like the Matthew 10, eight, where it's like freely you've received.

15:49

So freely give, is that kind of the just correct? Yes. Yes. Dorian is the

15:54

Greek adverb that means freely. So it comes from that verse and another verse in second Corinthians 11, where Paul says a very similar thing, both

16:02

Jesus and Paul use this word to refer to preaching freely, preaching without charging for it.

16:08

So I think Bible clearly that teaches should be teaching without exchanging that teaching for money.

16:15

Now in the very next breath, Jesus says in Matthew 10, nine through 10, that the worker's worthy of his food.

16:21

So it's about how do you, how do you hold those two truths together? Because a lot of people never really try to resolve it, or they try to resolve it and they do a poor job, or maybe they do a good job.

16:30

And then they don't necessarily draw all the logical implications of that resolution. So I very simply,

16:37

I believe that Jesus is saying on one hand, it is, uh, wrong to accept reciprocity where you're exchanging the gospel for money.

16:44

It is right to accept funds as co -labor, where you have other people in God's kingdom working alongside of you for the purpose of the gospel.

16:52

Hmm. And what would, what do you think would be the dividing line for that though?

16:58

Uh, because you could, you have a lot of, let's say seeker friendly or emerging church or kind of the evangelist, uh, out there going, look at all this money

17:06

I'm bringing in. It's going to the kingdom. It's co -laboring with me, you know, you're co -laboring with me.

17:11

So I can go to speaking events and I can, you know, fly here and do this and that. So, so how do we look into the word and then divide that and say, okay, this is appropriate.

17:21

This isn't appropriate. Do you, do you approach that at all in the book? Right. Well, there's, there's lots of examples scripture gives, you know,

17:28

Paul refuses money lots of times and he accepts money or anticipates accepting money other times and not just money, but hospitality or any kind of, uh, material support.

17:38

So you have these examples that give you ideas of when this is reciprocity, when this is the church paying him back for something versus co -laboring alongside of him.

17:48

And just to give some of those examples, uh, you have him in first and second Corinthians, both times saying he will never accept this money that the

17:57

Corinthians have tried to give him. And I believe that's in the context of him having planted the church, but in both of those letters, you also have him saying that he's hoping to come to them in order that they can support him on his journey to Macedonia.

18:09

So, uh, using the Greek word propempo, which implies financially support. So here you have him saying that, you know, he wants to come to them so they can help him with this mission.

18:19

And here you also have him saying that he will not, you'll never accept their money in exchange for what he has done for them.

18:25

Yeah. I, uh, I went to a college in Jackson, Tennessee. It was a, it was a

18:31

Christian liberal arts college. And, uh, that college was very expensive. And I just remember people going through ministry, uh, you know, the ministry program, and actually you brought up some good points in your introduction in your book.

18:46

Um, just the fact that somebody goes through college to learn about the word of God, spends 60 grand and gets, ends up, you know, with 60 grand and, uh, you know, dead, and then they go to seminary and there's an extra 60 grand.

19:00

It's like, you know, it's like, how are we misusing that?

19:07

Uh, you know, just the education of scripture, you know, with the financial side.

19:12

I mean, what are you, what are you seeing in that? I I'd really like to hear you pick that apart a little bit. Sure. So, uh, when it comes to colleges, we might need to, uh, to, uh, parse that out a bit more because, you know, sometimes that's a lot, that's more of a general education than specifically a biblical education, but, but just focusing on seminaries for the moment.

19:33

Yeah, you have, and it, and it's wild because usually these are funded by churches sending people to it.

19:38

So it would really take a minimal restructuring to just raise that money beforehand, not in exchange for something, but, uh, together.

19:46

And then you also have so many seminaries that are operating with almost zero church oversight, you know, as this total para -church thing that's off there, uh, on their own, this would kind of force them to, to, uh, work with associations or denominations so that there would be church oversight.

20:03

So I think there could be just a lot of good in just restructuring how these things are funded. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

20:09

No, that's good. But to go back to, uh, the point right before too, uh, so you're almost saying the co -laboring and correct me if I'm wrong, would almost be more church -based too then.

20:23

I mean, there's a big difference between, um, a congregation providing for its pastor, whether it be pay or housing or food versus a,

20:33

I don't know, throw any, any evangelical out there. I know Stephen Furtick showing up at a

20:38

Hillsong event and charging 150 ,000 for him to say a 15 minute, Hey, you know, kind of let's juice up this worship conference type thing that, that, that would, that's a pretty extreme difference, but that's kind of what we're talking about here.

20:52

Correct. Right. Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily have to do with the amount of money, but that amount of money does communicate that you aren't just working alongside of him.

21:01

You're really, you know, making an exchange. And I think it's perfectly appropriate for a pastor to be paid by their church.

21:06

You know, you have this gathering of people, uh, one of them ought to quit their job so they can dedicate themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word, as it says in Acts 6 .4.

21:15

Now who's going to do that? Uh, who's going to quit their job and, you know, live in poverty. Uh, but if we all work together, right.

21:21

And some of us forego the fruit of our labor, um, you know, that's, that's just co -labor. And I think it's perfectly appropriate for pastors who are traveling to receive honorariums.

21:29

Uh, you have a suggestion of that in first Corinthians nine, when, when, uh, Paul mentions

21:34

Peter saying, you know, do we not also like Peter have the freedom to take a wife, implying that Peter is more of a financial burden as he would have come to Corinth.

21:44

Um, and so, uh, yeah, there's, there's nothing wrong with honorariums, but, uh, what happens when these speakers won't come to you unless you pay them, uh, this really ridiculous amount of money, then it's more than just what's needed is, you know, they, they understand that they've got this service that they're providing and they're exchanging it for money.

22:02

It's very different than, than, uh, the honorariums that would be co -labor oriented. So outside of the kind of the pastoral or the speaker that we just touched on, what else in the

22:13

Dorian principle, um, are you focusing on in that book when you're talking about the commercialization of Christianity?

22:20

Sure. There's, uh, conferences, uh, there's books. I think that the Christian publishing industry is the biggest one.

22:26

And you asked a question just a second ago that I didn't completely answer, which was, uh, this would be more church -based if we were operating in a co -labor model.

22:35

Uh, yes, it would. And the reason that that is, is because you already have the weekly giving of the saints, right?

22:41

The weekly contributions where we are working together and it's para -church organizations, which aren't necessarily always doing something wrong, but because they don't have that regular form of giving, they have to get more creative about how they're going to raise support.

22:56

And so they usually end up selling either selling conference tickets, selling books, selling tuition, you know, uh, whatever it is.

23:03

So if you, if you're, you are working together with a church or it's a church doing this ministry, it doesn't have to worry about where's the money going to come from because you already have this weekly, um, this weekly support given by the congregation.

23:18

Yeah. I, I, uh, just a little pushback here. This is, this is me being a little bit of a, you know, devil's advocate, whatever, but you know, what, what would you say if someone would say, you know, well, you don't know what we do with our finances.

23:32

You have no idea. How can you, you know, paint this huge, you know, brushstroke, you know, you know, and, and just say that, you know, we're using our funds for X, Y, and Z, even though some, some pastors, you, you see what they're doing with their money, but anyway, you know?

23:52

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, that's kind of one of the things I point out to people because usually a lot of times people already have their own issue with the way money is used in churches and they bring that to the book.

24:01

And so they read in a lot of things that, you know, that, that I'm not actually saying, I actually don't,

24:06

I don't say anything about how people use the money. It's how they get the money I care about. So, you know, if you, if you have been honored by a church, you know, with this money, you ought to have the freedom to use your own funds the way you would.

24:19

Now you want to avoid the appearance of sin. I think there's, you know, something wrong with, you know, getting so decked out and drip that, you know, you know, you can choose as possible taking pictures of them on Instagram.

24:32

Yeah. There's, there's ways that you could bring dishonor to Christ by doing those sorts of things. But if it's, if it's your money, if it's been given to you, you should have the freedom to use it.

24:41

My, my issue is not with the spending of it once it's been received, it's with the receiving of it, whether it's received as co -labor or as reciprocity.

24:48

Yeah. I had a friend talk to me one time about, he called it the spirit of mammon.

24:55

And he was just like, you know, whenever I give, I'm just, you know, battling that spirit.

25:01

And obviously, you know, kind of more Pentecostal charismatic. But, but anyway, he, you know, he was just like,

25:10

I don't even care if the pastor takes it to the casino and puts it in the, in the slot machine. I was just like, really?

25:16

Like, you don't care if your pastor? But I mean, I, I don't know, I guess I never really thought about it until he said that, you know?

25:24

But yeah. Well, I don't know about that. I mean, if, if, if it's in your congregation, your pastor, your elders, everyone has accountability.

25:32

And if they're doing something with it, that isn't Christ -like, then they need to be held accountable. Right. That's what I would say.

25:37

Right. Now my father instilled in me, look at if you give outside of giving to the church, but if you give something to someone, you have no claim or right to say what they can do with it.

25:47

You give freely. Right. And you give openly. But I think that would be, that would be a difference. Yeah.

25:53

I don't know if I would just give and say, well, whatever they do with it, that, well, inside of a church setting with elders, you know, with.

26:00

Right. And he could have been using a very extreme, you know, example, but, but, you know.

26:06

So, I mean, this is pretty prevalent though, in the church, Connelly. I mean, it is like, there's conferences everywhere.

26:13

There's worship or, you know, praise concerts. There's churches that do all kinds of extracurricular things.

26:21

Entertainment. Entertainment and their auditoriums and, you know, all these things. And, you know,

26:27

I, it smells a little bit to me of, you know, Jesus flipping some tables. It's kind of in that vein when

26:33

I look at that, but like I said, it's also, you know, money itself isn't bad. Right.

26:39

Having clothes and material things are needed. Christ had them when he was here as fully

26:45

God and fully man. And so did the apostles and the early church fathers. Capitalism. Right.

26:51

I'm a red blooded American capitalist. Hold on. That's right. But we use it for the correct things. We steward it wisely.

26:57

Right. Yeah. So, so for me, it's just like parsing that out and going, okay, biblically, like where's, what can and what can't we, and I'm not saying you're the definite answer on all this, but the book is really approaching that.

27:13

And it kind of reads almost as if you're just giving scriptural references for these things.

27:18

And you kind of really left it up to me in the first few chapters. You said, Hey, look at this.

27:24

I'm telling you what the Bible says, which I like. That's what Christ did. Hey, have you heard, you've heard it said,

27:29

I mean, he just put down the truth. Didn't argue. Didn't try to make a point. He just said, this is what God says.

27:35

Have you not read? Right. But I mean, we're so it's, it's just so it's everywhere now.

27:41

So, so what do we do? What's like the Christian response to this or the biblical response to this? When we just see money changing hands left and right in just about the majority of our

27:50

Western Christian churches. Yeah. Well, that is one common criticism book and it's under the first yeah.

27:58

I spent about 10 chapters, you know, just establishing the principle. And then the last four chapters talking about application.

28:05

Now there's a lot of application, but it's, it's a quick and, you know, covers a very large landscape of, of what there is to cover and really to talk about all the ins and outs of the things you would want to consider would take a whole book in itself.

28:22

So yeah, I don't, I don't have all the answers to that. I'm hoping that other people can kind of help me figure out some of those things.

28:28

But once you have this principle, yeah, I think, you know, I think the way forward just involves people considering the biblical text.

28:36

First of all, you know, maybe you've been using this book, taking it to a pastor, you know, having him think through this.

28:41

And I think that, you know, as people think through it, that's the, that's the first step. And that, that is a sufficient table turning at this point.

28:49

Yeah. Have you had pushback on this? Could you give some examples of the pushback? Sure. So a lot of, well, a lot of pushback comes in identifying the fact that there are a lot of gray areas because, you know,

29:01

I'm, I'm making this distinction between co -labor and reciprocity. So at what point does something become co -labor and reciprocity, for example, or at what point does something become gospel ministry or not gospel ministry, right?

29:11

If I, if I sell you a Bible, like a paper Bible, you know, that that's, that's a word of God, but now

29:17

I make it like this, you know, luxury leather Bible. Like at what point did that switch from the essence of this being me giving you the word of God to me giving you like paper, ink, and leather?

29:26

I don't know the answer to a lot of these questions. And, you know, you get into some kind of stoic question of how many grains of sand does it take to make a hill of sand?

29:38

So, so the fact that I can't, you know, parse out all the, all the gray areas doesn't really, doesn't really undo the principle.

29:48

And the regular, the principle of worship, you have a distinction between forms and elements. You have the forms of worship, which can change, you know, whether you're standing or sitting, whether you have two songs or three songs, you have the elements of worship that cannot change.

30:00

You can't add or remove from reading the word of God, prayer, singing. So you have all kinds of people who agree on this principle, but then disagree about whether or not something's a form or an element is, is instrumental music.

30:14

Is that a form or is it an element? You know, I would say it's a form. There are other people who would say it's an element. You can't add that.

30:21

So I don't think that that undoes it. Another criticism that people have pointed out is that it's very subjective.

30:27

Am I, am I saying that someone is sinning based on the thoughts in another person's heart, right?

30:33

If, if this person, how do I know whether or not they're giving with a co -laboring spirit or whether they're giving, thinking that they're doing it in exchange for something?

30:42

I don't think that's what I'm really saying. I'm just saying that we need to do due diligence when the way that we receive money.

30:50

So you have all kinds of other situations in life, counseling, preaching, speaking to a friend where you do due diligence to make sure that you are understood correctly with your words and gestures.

31:00

And so this is talking about what are the words and gestures of ministry fundraising to make sure we're doing due diligence. Right. So, I mean, you know,

31:07

Chick -fil -A, they sell chicken sandwiches, right? Like they're not selling the gospel per se, right.

31:13

You know, but they, you know, might have a, yeah. Well, it's towards it because of the CEO. Yeah, no, absolutely.

31:21

And I agree with both you guys. And what you just said, Connelly too, is like, we can look at it, look at something and go, okay, we know we look at the $85 million jet.

31:30

And the guy who says he can't fly commercial because it's a tube full of demons and he doesn't want anyone talking to him or praying with him.

31:37

Okay. That we can clearly say there's some issues there. And then on the other side, we can see someone who co -labors and go, okay, that's right.

31:45

But it's those gray areas that get a little bit confusing. It's like co -laboring. And then, you know, the biggest one for me is what you mentioned at the top of the show is like publishing.

31:54

Like Christian publishing is like a, just a huge mega, it just creates so much money.

32:01

Okay. And for, and for what, for something that's relatively inexpensive now to create.

32:08

I mean, I have your digital copy of your book and you can distribute that probably very, very, you know, low cost.

32:16

Obviously we want everyone to go out and buy a paper copy as well too. Yeah. And the paper, just so people know the paper copy is free and the publisher even covers shipping.

32:25

Wow. That's awesome. That's a heck of a deal. So it's like, what do we do about publishing where I think almost,

32:32

I don't know, I don't know any, any Christian that I talked to that wouldn't, that wouldn't agree that yeah, 150 or $250 for a leather bound

32:42

Bible, just because it has a certain, you know, material to it or someone's name in the front of it is a little outrageous.

32:49

Like what do we do about publishing? Because that's, I mean, book, well, we're all reformed here.

32:56

Books is all I got, man. I got way too many books. Yeah. Well, I think,

33:01

I think books need to be offered freely. So yeah, I won't comment on luxury, but like I mentioned, you know, luxury

33:08

Bibles. I think that there's room for a market for those kinds of things. If someone wants to, in a secular sense, you know, have a business where they're selling craftsmen

33:16

Bibles, but yeah, when it comes to when the essence of the thing is the word of God why aren't the digital, why aren't the digital copies of things free?

33:25

Well, it's because they're selling you teaching and then everything that attends to gospel ministry should be free as well.

33:31

You have in Matthew 10, eight, Jesus says, free the, excuse me, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons you receive without paying, give without pay.

33:41

If they had accepted money for the miracles and then given the gospel freely, like that would have been a problem.

33:47

Everything that attends to the gospel should be free. Paul didn't say that, oh, well, as long as you pay for my ship ticket and you feed me and you house me, then

33:55

I'll preach for you. No, he wouldn't even accept their food in Thessalonica. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we see the sorcerer.

34:01

So, so yeah, to round out that question, to round out that question. Yeah. I think that not only should the digital content be free, but, but everything that attends to that, if it's being offered by the ministry and not, you know, by some something else,

34:13

I imagine you could, you know, put some print on demand book up there. And then when you click the button, you have to pay for it to be printed.

34:19

But if you are as a ministry providing this thing, you should be providing it freely so that there's no undermining of your sincerity.

34:26

Right. It makes me think about TBN. I don't know if you guys ever caught any of that stuff for like, they would, you know, the guy with the hairpiece and, and whatever, he would, he would have the, you know, be like,

34:37

Hey, Hey, if you send in $85 and 89 cents right now, your miracle is going to happen.

34:43

You know? And I was just like, what? That doesn't make any sense. But they would always get, you know, the vulnerable that needed that miracle, you know, to send in their money.

34:53

Yeah, no, absolutely. So as we as we round this out here, if someone's going to pick up this book and we'll let you throw out the links to it and where they can get it, what are, what are some of the maybe two or three or one or two takeaways that you would like them to get from this?

35:08

What were you trying to get across in this book when you wrote it? And let me just tell you I've been thinking about writing a book for about eight years, and that's as far as I've gotten, because it seems so overwhelming.

35:18

Your book is well written, you know, factually correct, very good scripture references.

35:24

So I applaud you on it. It's, it's quite an accomplishment, but what do you want people to take away from it?

35:30

Yeah, that there is this distinction in reciprocity and co -labor laid out very clearly in Matthew 10, and then carried along by Paul and by even

35:39

John and third John. And scripture is very clear on this matter. This is not something that God has remained silent on, but it's something that I was shocked when

35:48

I started going through it and just realized how frequently Paul talks about this. So yeah, this is something

35:53

God's, God speaks on and makes this distinction between co -labor and reciprocity. And second, yeah, that there is, there is a way forward.

36:01

There's a, there's a great hope of reformation in the church. The things right now don't look great with the church following the world's model and publishing.

36:11

I think there's a lot of problems, but the way forward is quite glorious that there could be this reformation.

36:18

And if you imagine, I like to daydream about what it would be like if so many of these teachings, these books were offered freely so that you could easily explore them.

36:27

You would be able to search them all very instantly and not have to only be able to search the ones that you have, you know, access to.

36:33

And there's just all kinds of good things that could come out of the church embracing this. Man, you're a software engineer.

36:40

Get on that app, man. Yeah, well, there are a lot of, there are a lot of free

36:46

Bible study apps that can, you know, incorporate this kind of material, but you know, there's no market, no like commercial market right in there.

36:55

That's why these things are sold on the coordinates and they're sold on Logos and and so forth. Which that's kind of the issue that we're talking about tonight.

37:02

It's the fact that there's money to be made and something that could be freely given is instead it's getting reciprocity like.

37:09

Right. And another point is that what is accomplished when you do this right, is that because the gospel is offered freely, you are representing

37:20

Christ well by offering the gospel freely to others. And what is ruined in this when you do it wrong is that you are undermining the sincerity of ministry.

37:29

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 2 17, for we are not like so many peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God in the sight of God, we speak in Christ.

37:39

So sincerity is undermined when we violate this principle.

37:45

Yeah, that's a good point. That is awesome. Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to us, man.

37:51

And the way you've articulated this in your book, I mean, it's really got my wheels turning for sure.

37:59

I mean, I loved it. I really loved it a lot. So yeah, thanks so much, Conley. We really appreciate it. Yeah, you're welcome.

38:04

He's talking about that optimistic future. I think you might have a post -op brother.

38:10

Hey, brother, what's going on? I'm optimistic, Amil, but I have seen...

38:16

I finally found another one. Here we go. Man, you guys. No, I'm joking.

38:22

But I have, you know, I have seen the cycle of corruption and reformation in the church, and we are at a point in time where I think everything is ripe.

38:32

So I'm optimistic. You know, this is just to recap the history of this.

38:38

You see the early church, and, you know, I put evidence in the book. You see that the early church embraced this.

38:44

Corruption set in. Eventually, you have, you know, indulgences being sold and things like that, right? People selling salvation.

38:50

And that's when Martin Luther comes in, and the whole reformation started over this issue. You know, we usually think of the reformation as being about being saved by grace through faith, and it is.

39:00

I wouldn't say it's not, but like, what sparked it was this issue of money and ministry. And here we are.

39:07

So in the 1700s, the first modern copyright law, Statute of Anne, was introduced.

39:13

And so at that point, authors were able to start commercializing their craft before they would just hope that when they put a dedication in the front of the book, someone would pay them back.

39:24

Or really, they were just doing it to get the word out there. So then you have authors being paid royalties.

39:30

The church eventually follows along with this model, and now you have digital content being sold. So it's not even paper book that's being sold.

39:36

It's just the teaching, and you have the church following along. And I think it's a ripe time for people to go back to the

39:41

Word of God and see what it says about this. Good stuff. Pastor Connolly, tell everyone where they can find you on social media, where they can get a copy of the book, and what you got going on.

39:50

Yeah. So I'm CCO3 on Gab. I'm also on Facebook.

39:56

And if you're on Facebook, please join our Facebook group, which is called Money and Ministry. Trying to have a good community there that's working through these things and discussing them.

40:06

And then the book is at thedorianprinciple .org. Dorian is spelled D -O -R -E -A -N.

40:13

And you can order the paper back there. Like I said earlier, the publisher even covers shipping.

40:20

This publisher and the larger organization, which is First Love Missions, they've been doing ministry this way since 2006, giving books away for free and even shipping them for free.

40:31

So they've been committed to this model of ministry for a long time. So you can check them out too, First Love Missions.

40:36

That is awesome. It's awesome. Well, we thank you so much for coming on. Just like Jason said, we appreciate you taking time.

40:42

And we would encourage our listeners to go take a look at that book. It is very interesting, especially for this day and age.

40:48

We talk about it all the time, Jason, on this podcast about the commercialization of Western Christian church.

40:54

It's entertainment now. It's entertainment. It's very different than what it was in the early church, for sure.

41:01

But we're optimistic about the future as the gospel is preached. And guys, we thank you so much for listening to another episode of Dead Men Walking.

41:08

As usual, if you would like some merch or to check out a little bit more about Jason and myself, you can go to dmwpodcast .com.

41:16

We always appreciate the feedback, the comments, the voicemails, the emails.

41:23

They're just fun to get to know that you're listening and God is being glorified by this podcast.

41:29

That's all we do. We don't get paid. We do this of our own free volition. And we hope that God is glorified in the process because he has been so, so good to us.

41:39

Jason, do we have anything else before we get out of here? I forgot to say, Claude, I got your hat on.

41:45

If you made it this far, here I stand podcast. Thanks for that.

41:50

Thanks for the hats, buddy. All right, guys, as always, God bless. Tom. None of your biscuits.