TiL- Regulative Principle of Worship

Yes, thank you for joining us this evening tonight. We're going to look at the regulative principle of worship and Dan is going to help me help him study for his pastoral

Ordination exam in the Presbyterian Church stick with us. This should be a good conversation I Welcome back to the truth love podcast

It doesn't matter what platform you are watching us on the chat line is open it all

Streams right to us and we can we can see it live But if you have any what be watching it or listening to it later

Leave us a comment and we will see you have a question We'll try to answer that as well.

But but at least let us know that you're watching We appreciate your prayers and support as we work together to try to get out the gospel teach some doctrine and Yeah, just fellowship in the

Lord don't okay, Dan doing great Good I still don't understand why we have to do time the way that we do in America I think

Arizona's probably got it got it right or they don't they don't change at all. They just keep on trucking along but But anyway, we'll be so we all right.

We'll make it you would you prefer to have the light in the morning or the light? in the evening, uh

Probably in the evening in the evening. Yeah, whatever we do during the summer Just make that our time

Yeah, just keep that rolling Yeah, cuz this this far north

You hit time change and then around Christmas time

It's like pitch black at 430 and it's just depressing like once the

Christmas lights are gone those first two weeks of January No, man, it's just Like you you go to work

It's getting light as you get there you leave work it's getting dark as you get home feel like your whole days

Gone, I don't know. I feel like I want to go to bed and look around. It's 530

I feel I feel like it's too late to go out and do anything, but it's it's no 530 It's wild Yeah, we it does seem to give us more time in the evening to be able to get some things accomplished

That you normally wouldn't because it gets dark. Oh, yeah Yeah, speaking of lights and Christmas Should we have lights?

Should we not have lights? Let's use that as a transition to regulative principle of worship Should we have music should we not have music?

We're just we're gonna be discussing the regular principle of worship here at the beginning Well for the most part

And all the questions that you sent me Is is this a you are going for the pastoral ordination process going through that in the

RPC and a correct. Yep it is Is this common

Throughout all Presbyterian most Presbyterian churches or just the RPC and a this

Well, the regulative principle itself is common across all We'll say conservative

Presbyterian churches We in the RPC and a take it a step.

Oh My converted Rob to be a Presbyterian area so as we

In the RPC and a we are a little bit We get we could take it a step further so we hold to the regular principle

As well as exclusive psalmody and no infused no use of instruments in worship

Let me ask you this question before we move forward. Can you hear me speaking? I can hear you but you are frozen

Your video is frozen. Okay, that's what I thought Let me go out and come back in All right

We've never had to do this before but hey, we're live. Yeah, I know we're live I've never froze before All right, well while Roberts gone

I Will I guess say a little something about the regular principle? when it comes to the worship of God The there are two schools of thought

One is the normative principle and one is the regulative principle the regulative principles states that because God is who he is

God is able to To regulate how his worship is conducted the normative principle says that if if God is not expressly for Bidding it in worship, then we're okay to Forbidden it were or it being sinful then

We can engage in that practice in in worship So some people

Understand that a little bit differently however broad strokes the regulative principle boils down to several points that are

Allowed or regulated or permitted in worship being the preaching of God's Word the reading of God's Word singing to him prayer and Engaging in the sacraments so I just kind of went over the difference to a basic difference between the regulative principle and the normative principle kind of get the

Get the wheels turning while you were while you were gone. Yeah, and I read an article years and years and years ago and it was

From a guy who was the music director. I feel like it was the music director at a church

That I approve of that. I like I like the pastor. I love his preaching. I Really thought it was him.

There was article. I Think I reached out to him. He said it wasn't him. I can't find the article again, but he he made it

He didn't go with one side of the other he kind of made a middle ground and called it biblical worship Because he he he liked stuff from both sides

And I really wish I could find that article again because it was a great article and it kind of It kind of hit me where I was at the time

And maybe still am but we're currently helping you study for your exam and and the

RPCNA. So Yeah, so this particular exam is well,

I'm doing two of them one is a Basic English Bible knowledge exam and the one that we're going to work through part of it is is a systematic theology and Reform Presbyterian distinctives

So I will I'll be seated in front of the the presbytery pastors delegates from every church in our region in our presbytery and I will be grilled by a

Retired pastor who is well respected in our in our presbytery for and I looked at the time frame and they they gave him 45 minutes to To both grill me and for everyone to vote to say if I'm I did well enough to to be sustained

Or or pass I guess that would be We say you're sustained in your exam you pass

Yeah, that seems like it's a sufficient amount of time To because I think you apparently not because there's a part two part two in in about a

Year six months year and a half something like that. So you do it twice Well, we're gonna bring up some terminology then not everybody may be familiar with so this first one is exclusive Psalmody, did

I know something? What is it? Exclusive psalmody is the practice that we only sing the psalms in worship so if you come to a

Reformed Presbyterian Church part of the RPC na When you come in you'll see a blue Do You will see this blue Psalter It says the book of Psalms for worship was put out by a crowning covenant publishers

They're a part of the RPC na publishing folks and in here are 150

Psalms all of them set to music and We will be singing out of that Psalter I Say that with one thing if you go to a couple congregations

They'll be singing out of a red one because they like it better and they didn't make the switch over to the blue one

But still the hundred and fifty psalms Set to music and we will be singing those in in worship so we were of the conviction that Because of The regulative principle because of the way that God has laid things out in the scriptures

That is what we are permitted to do in corporate worship

So when we gather together as a church, we're singing the Psalms And and I guess this question in my mind is going to come up later when we talk about instruments but you talk about the the

Psalms the hundred Psalms in that hymn book are put to music and so You we've got this section to talk about about no instruments

And so in my mind and we can save this for later, but I'm just in my mind. I'm thinking

How do you how do you get on tune? How do you start on tune, how do you know the tune of the song?

It's those kind of things Would come to my mind. Sure. Yes, some practical stuff would be be cool.

I We had our first morning service at the Oneana Reformed Presbyterian Church preaching station it we're planning a church in Oneana so Ryan the fellow who is doing the preaching.

He's he's our associate pastor elect who's working on that work He'll be ordained hopefully in the next few months

He asked me if I would lead the music this this The Sunday when we were there and so What you do is you you call out which

Psalm you're going to sing The Psalms are set to music as in it looks just like a a hymnal your notes

Down there at the bottom. It'll have a familiar. I have a tune and a meter the meter

Means that if you don't know the tune, but you know another tune With the same meter you can sing it along for instance

Amazing Grace and Gilligan's Island the theme song are both in the same meter so you can interchange both the lyrics and The melody when you sing those so at some point you're gonna have to try to sing to yourself

Amazing Grace to the tune of Gilligan's Island theme song but then someone stands up front they they hum the first line of Music and then give a starting pitch and then

They just go and you you sing it can be a little awkward at first if you're not used to it, but It it's very simple

You just kind of catch on and a lot of the the tunes in here are familiar hymns that people would know

Or or like in the case of Psalm 5 a Simon Simon and Garfunkel song

Well, it really sounds like a Distant cousin to the to the old primitive

Baptist style where they would Of course, they they taught their children at a young age the the do -re -mi -fa -so -la -ti -do

Scale and that's how they taught them the notes and how to sing and then they would They would do the tune of the song according to the do -re -mi -fa -so -la -ti -do scale and Then they would sing the song because they had learned it first using the that scale and then they would sing the song with the words and So just a distant cousin because you talked about how you home would hum the tune the first line first before you would sing and I always thought that'd be fascinating to be a part of that service where you were learning the scales learning

Learning music that way and everybody learned it Everybody's saying that way without instruments

And and to music Music is

I don't know. It's it's inspiring. It's it's emotional. It's it's you know It'd be nice on the ears what many many positive things about music, but there's also something

To about not having the music drowned out the voices, but hearing the words and hearing the voices hearing the harmonies hearing

The voices in unison is a beautiful thing as well. Yeah I've had the privilege to To be a part of some some larger groups that that We're getting there

Becky We've had some some opportunities to be a part of some some larger groups that would sing psalms

Acapella with no instruments and The the power of just the the voice

Singing God's Word is it's incredible, you know, plus, you know having

You sing you go through it enough a week after week singing the Psalms over and over again.

You start memorizing them Especially because they're set to music which helps

You to encourage one another from the Psalms, which is something that it's it's good to do.

Yeah, so there's no doubt that you guys Wouldn't do this without a biblical basis

Right on a little foundation or background. So where do where do you get it from? What's your biblical argument? well, first we start from The Old Old Testament commandment where God sets up his worship and in the first when he's talking to the people of Israel and He warns them not to invent ways to worship himself so Deuteronomy 12

Starting in verse Let's see 28 he says be careful to listen to all these words, which

I command you So that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever

For you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of Yahweh your God So pay attention do this and you'll be doing what you're supposed to do

When Yahweh your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going into The nations which you are going in to dispossess and you dispossess them and inhabit their land

Beware lest you are being snared to follow them after they are destroyed before you

Unless you inquire after their God saying how do these nations serve their gods that I may do likewise

Now I understand that to say not how can we serve their gods But how do they serve their gods so we can serve

Yahweh our God in the same way? He's telling them don't do that in verse 31.

He says you shall not do thus towards Yahweh your God For every abominable act which

Yahweh hates they have done for their gods For and then he gives the extreme example of what they've done

For they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods So what is it that he says at the end to sum it up?

Whatever I'm commanding you You shall be careful to do it. You shall not add to it nor take away from it

It's that principle where God sets up his worship and he sets it up for the Old Testament saints

He says as I'm commanding you to do this you do what I say You don't do more than what

I say. You don't do less than what I say and Those who hold of the regulative principle believe that That principle that we do only what

God has commanded Nothing more nothing less we do that even today in in the

New Testament and Today that's what we do. So if God's commanded it we do it.

He hasn't commanded it. We don't do it So when it comes to The singing of Psalms there has to be a command from God for us to actually

Sing I'm in order for us to be okay to sing. So we look at what God is as a commanded

Look at passages like in in first Chronicles I'm gonna hit a lot of Chronicles today

First Chronicles 16 David is there and David is he's a

Establishing some some stuff for worship. There's a tent for the Ark of the Covenant. He's saying now here

Here's what's going to happen so starting it in first Chronicles 16

And they Brought in the Ark of God and placed it inside the tent which David had pitched for it and they brought burnt offerings and peace offerings near before God which

God had commanded in Exodus and Leviticus and Deuteronomy So you have the sacrifices of God had commanded the

Ark of the Covenant which God had commanded them to make then David completed the burnt offerings and the peace offerings and he blessed the people in the name of Yahweh and He apportioned to everyone of Israel both men and women

To everyone a loaf of bread and a portion of meat and a raisin cake, which just sounds delicious

And here here's here's an important part verse 4, I mean, it's all important but here's relevant to what we're talking about And he made some of the

Levites ministers before the Ark of Yahweh even to bring remembrance and Thank and praise

Yahweh the God of Israel so some of the Levites were set apart to Stay before the

Ark of the Covenant in order to do certain things on a recurring basis and that is is a part of the worship of God so if we go on a little bit further into first Chronicles 25 we see exactly who those people were and what they were supposed to do so in the first seven verse and if anybody has questions stop me cuz

I'm gonna I'm gonna have to build the case and then We can we can talk about it in first Chronicles 25 it says moreover

David and the commanders of the army separated for the service some of the sons of Asaph and of Heman and Juduth and who were to prophesy with liars harps and cymbals and The number of those who perform who performed their service was and then it lists these people

It is it it's important to note that in here it says that these were

To prophesy they were being given being given Words to say from from God it says this in verse 3 down here in verse 5

One of them was the king seer a Prophet to the king who was supposed to inquire of God for him

And it says this in verse 6 and all these it was those four there were 17 and All plus their their leaders all these were under the direction of their father to sing in the house of Yahweh, so there was there was a

Group of ministers who were to sing in the house of God Asaph and Was Juduth and Heman were under the direction of the king and their number who were trained to sing

Yahweh with all the relatives and all who are skillful. So the full number of the musicians was 288 there was a large group of people who were

Levites who were supposed to then go and Sing so David began the process of singing

In Conjunction with the the people or the the worship of God as God had commanded

God had commanded the Ark of the Covenant to be made he had commanded the sacrifices to be put upon the altar and in conjunction with all of that You have these ministers who were supposed to come in and sing and play their instruments at certain various times during Old Testament worship with that said

Wife, oh, she's fun.

So with that said in 2nd Chronicles 29 so this is further on Hezekiah Who is?

Reforming a bunch of stuff in Israel. He's trying to make sure that things are going Well that people are doing what they're supposed to be doing he became a

King and he part of what he set up was Was singing.

Let's see. I went to the I'm gonna step too far. Here we go in verse 30

Chronicles 29 verse 30 It says this Back up into 29

Now at the completion of the burnt offerings the king and all who are present with him bowed down and worship

So there was bowing and worship. This is corporate worship Moreover King Hezekiah and the officials ordered the

Levites to sing praises to Yahweh and here's what they were commanded to sing with with the words of David and Asaph the seer

So they sang praises with gladness and bowed down in worship So all of the singing that went on in the

Old Testament that was commanded by God Was either written by by prophets who were given these words in order to to to sing or by David and the prophets all of them were inspired words of God given to the people in order for them to worship during the worship in the temple

Which means that these weren't just these weren't just songs that they were making up off the top of their head

These were these were the words of the Lord coming to the people

From God through the proper channels in order to be used for worship at the command of God so that is what

That that's how Old Testament singing took place Now what's interesting is before Hezekiah said that you had

David and the prophets who were Writing the

Psalms when Hezekiah came along. He said well, what are we going to sing? We're going to sing only the inspired

Psalms that's been given to us by God and this was also done at the

Was done because of Of as part of reforms to bring people back into the true and proper worship of God So that is that's a basic Old Testament case for how they sang

Psalms in the Old Testament and Which Psalms and which songs and how it came about and how they they got them?

now figure this would be a good place to Ask if you want to interject questions before we get into what how the how that how we pull all that from Chronicles and Deuteronomy into the

New Testament Well, I do have a question, but it's not necessarily on Your argument for the regular principle in Old Testament It's it's a sub category based on one of the passages that you read it in your your first passage in first Chronicles 25

You talk about how the the the instrument players your would you call them worship leaders sure

They prophesied. Yep. Now to me you can tell me if you think

You would agree with this but would that be a strong argument for male

Leadership when it comes to worship because they they are Prophesying bring forth the the

Word of God alongside of the music No, okay.

Here's why well, I do believe it says that All of this came about by the direction of God to limit it to men would take verse five

And kind of do do some some harm to it because all these were sons of Haman the king seer

To exalt him according to the words of God, but so God gave 14 sons and three daughters

Okay So there were sons and daughters now It doesn't say that the sons were the ones who were going to be singing but he it looks like they employed employed his daughters as well now it also

Seems that they were the sons and daughters were the musicians and that he

Was the one who's actually writing down the the words to the songs that they were going to be be writing

This that's interesting. So do you think it do you think the daughters were? Doing any prophesying at that time?

I Don't know I don't know as if the text is clear enough because I don't really think that's the point of the text

I think they're trying to show that they The worship of God was being done. God's way is being set up That the

Levites would have The Levites would be the ones who would be leading the the singing at that time

Which which were the the Levites that were the with a priest

I mean they were all male Well the Levites The Levites that served in the house of God were all were all men correct

Yeah, but but there was there was women in the tribe of Levi. Otherwise, it would have been gone after the first the first generation

Yeah, yeah So, I guess we want to make that transition which which brings on a whole other set of things here

That you wrote down so You said there's there's no New Testament office of songwriter, right?

There is there's there's no Person said to be it because God had given songs for for his

Old Testament church to sing through the prophets If we were going to be singing songs different than what they're singing we would have prophets

That would also sing in the New Testament today Or prophets who would write the music for the

New Testament today. We don't see that anywhere Which which means that that we would

We shouldn't be looking for for new new music right in another sidebar, but We know that the

Psalms were sung you know, they they were They were for singing but yet when they're when they're used in the

New Testament They're quoted for their doctrine Right and they're teaching which is which should tell us something about music and the songs that we sing.

Yeah. Well one of the reasons why why God wanted us to to sing especially the

Psalms is that The the Psalms have been said to be a little

Bible if you took just the Psalter And read through it you can get the doctrines of the

Bible you see The the sacrifice for sins forgiveness of sins Christ kingship in Psalm 2 his

Psalm 110 where he is reigning and ruling what to do when you

When you sin think of David as he laments over his sin, and he sings No to God never

Seeking forgiveness you have all of it there and you don't have People complain.

They don't get to sing the name of Jesus, but you Kind of are because you're singing about Christ all throughout the Psalms. He's everywhere.

So so here's my throwback for Some questions concerning that that comment.

There's no new to my office a song writer Going back to the

Old Testament was was there a particular office? This is the office for songwriter or was was

There an office a position Which I think you talked about people being in that position and that was one of the duties of that position

Was has there ever been an office of songwriter? Well, there were Levites who were set apart for the specific purpose of writing and singing songs in Old Testament worship

Okay, so you would consider that an office of songwriter or part of their

One of their job descriptions, even if you don't say what I would say It's an office because they were set apart specifically for that task.

Not all the Levites were given the task of music Now whether you want to call it an office or not, you know that they had a specific

Specific task given to them by God to do That you don't see that in the

New Testament So going back to the New Testament and the

New Covenant now that we're in So there's no office or there there's no

Nothing described in the New Testament like there is in the Old Testament. Thanks. Well, we'll say like that Would it be forbidden then to write a song to God?

Yes Yes, and no. Okay. Um, I love all your answers. Yes, and yes and no

It depends on on what the purpose of that song is If it's for corporate worship,

I would say no that's not allowed If it's not for corporate worship, then praise

God all you want I Thought that's where you would make that distinction

Yeah, corporate worship versus things outside of corporate worship. Yeah Yeah Because really the regulative principle of worship is only regulating

Christ corporate worship, you know a couple worship of God And I think that's an important distinction to make

Yeah, yeah It's not regulating all all of life just How God wants to be worshipped because way back in Deuteronomy He tells the

Old Testament Church don't worship me other in in a way other than what I have called you to worship me

So, I mean, it's the same God same church just in the New Testament now So why would we do something other than what

God has commanded us to do? I don't believe we should No, because what we end up doing is we'll end up bringing in things from the culture around us

You know, what are the things that people like, you know, think of the seeker sensitive movement What do people like and how do they worship their gods?

Maybe we can do that and attract people to church And it's it's the same pitfall as the the

Israelites when they went in and conquered the land. I mean May not be some of the extremes no not seeing people passing their sons and daughters through the fire but we do see

In some extreme cases some pretty wild stuff Motorcycles and pyrotechnic shows and yeah all sorts of streams while raising this craziness.

Yeah, but let's say this at the very least and that the regular principle of worship, let's say that It's not the absolute

Only way let's say let's just say for instance, it's it's not And we can say the very least the regular principle of worship is a safeguard

Against all those things you were talking about at the very least it is a safeguard

But it's a safeguard that's put in place by God, right? So, I mean if God said it

Really pretty important safeguard to retain right and that and that's part of it.

Just like Just like learning a catechism learning doctrine. It's a safeguard against heresy Learning God's Word.

It's a safeguard against Hide your hide God's Word in your heart that you may not sin against him

God's Word how he wants to do things It's all a safeguard against false worship. I don't worship a self -worship

False doctrine all these things. Mm -hmm. Yeah, so and and that's that's the case that you're trying to build that this is this is

God's way and one of the One of the benefits is that safeguard?

Yep, absolutely So the next thing that you got on here, I'm not sure if it's a question or a comment, but you've got on here

Psalms hymns and spiritual songs, which is which comes from the New Testament Yeah, absolutely comes from the

New Testament. So that expands Psalms which which

You know that that's kind of our premise where we started exclusive psalmody only singing psalms, but the

New Testament How do you reconcile that where it says psalms hymns and spiritual songs?

What's the difference? How is that? Sticking with exclusive psalmody. Oh, I don't have to reconcile it at all.

Okay. No, it's great here. Let's explain If he

Ephesians 5 19 well, let's back up into into 18

He says and do not get drunk with wine For that is dissipation

But be filled with the Holy but be filled with the Spirit. So don't be filled with wine

Be filled with the Spirit. And what does that filling with the Spirit lead to? verse 19 speaking to one another

Fill the spirit with psalms hymns and spiritual songs Singing and making melody with your heart to the

Lord now psalms hymns and spiritual songs is Written down here

Um And so it's a weird construct in in Greek and I'm not gonna bore too much but when you stack the word chi, which means and several times in place

Where it says psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. He didn't just put it in a list

It means that the the thing that modifies the the last

Um thing that you're talking about last noun there

Can it can apply to all of them? So when it says spiritual songs it means a spiritual psalms spiritual hymns spiritual songs here's

Really cool part about that It's telling us to be filled with the Spirit and to speak to one another

Through spiritual psalms spiritual hymns spiritual songs those three designations hymns psalms and songs are what you find on the titles of each of the psalms in The Psalter some of them are called psalms.

Some of them are called hymns. Some of them are called songs So What I see here is that he's he's telling them to Speak to one another using the

Psalter Use the hymns use the songs use the psalms

You know as as they're written in in the Psalter all while singing and making melody with your heart to the

Lord So, I don't think we have to reconcile it because I don't think it expands it

I think he's calling the Psalter by name and saying here's what you should be encouraging each other with as you gather together and Sing with one another

Yeah so Let me get this straight. That passage says speak to one another in This manner not sing to sing to one another in this matter, but speak to one another in these matter so to me that goes back to These psalms are used for doctrine and and the thought that popped my mind was this is so much like And this passage to me is it's so much like new fetid counseling where you're using a scripture

To Edify and build up you're using the Psalms These hymns and songs to to encourage to edify to heal one another with the doctrine, right?

Well, it says both it says to speak these things to one another and then how do you speak it to one other?

Singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord so these are things that can be you you can search them for doctrine and and preach them and sing them and They're just as much scriptures as any other part of the

Bible. So yeah, I think I think you're you're picking up on something great there Yeah, it uh, it also lists that again in Colossians Colossians 16

Says, I'll let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another

And Here's where it gets it's a little weird

This is a two -part Command here where it's actually talking about About preaching the word and singing of The Psalms that it doesn't bring it out.

So well in the legacy standard Bible, but the ESV brings it out fairly clearly I don't know if I have a copy

Somewhere. I don't know But what it what it when it says

Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another

You can almost read a comma there with Psalms hymns and spiritual songs

Singing with gratefulness in your hearts to the Lord. So you're looking at the Word of God being preached and The Psalms hymns and spiritual songs, which

I believe is referring to the Psalter and those Psalms hymns and songs of Christ singing with gratefulness in your hearts to the

Lord Which would mean that the New Testament when we have a

Picture of worship of things that we're supposed to be doing with one another when we gather together

We see the preaching of the word the singing of the Psalms Obviously Paul says elsewhere.

He desires to see all men praying together lifting up. Holy hands and our

Lord Instituting the Lord's Supper and baptism, so we see all the elements of the regulative principle of singing preaching scripture reading

Prayer and the sacraments or ordinances depending on if you're Baptist or not if you're

Baptist. Oh I like it.

I like it. I like it. I like the regular principle You're just not gonna build a whole lot of numbers

I think using the regular principle Well, here's the thing

It doesn't matter because Unless the Lord builds the house those who labor do so in vain

That's right. It's something that comes from the Psalter that we sing from so we're going to be just fine

What good doctrine what good doctrine? I'm glad you brought up this next part because that's that's something that's gonna be thrown at you

It's something that popped in my mind when I first I first saw That we sing in church

This next part that I'm going to talk about as long as we're singing and talking about the same thing.

Yeah Let's see if we are So somebody's gonna throw at you

Of course Psalm 96 where it says sing to the Lord a new song

So why can't we why can't we make up a new song and sing it to the Lord in church? Oh Because this is the new song that was being sung

These songs were all new At the time that they're being written Look at Psalm 96

Which is to the tune I Can't remember.

It's the same as coronation. It's uh Do you know it from from from a hymnal?

Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum see that now

That's not where I feel like we would get stuck. If not, everybody knew that the tune. Oh Preparation comes from I guess.

Yeah for the yeah It says sing it sing a new song to this is from our

Psalter Sing a new song to the Lord all earth sing to the Lord sing to the

Lord and bless his name He saves each day proclaim His glory to all nations show his deeds.

Let people's know He's telling them to sing the song of the salvation of God coming to mankind

It's it's singing about Christ and his salvation that's coming to the earth

So he's telling them to command. Here's a new song to sing sing this new song to the

Lord you're the the sacrifices from the temple the things that you have seen the the

Things that God has promised the things that he's called you away from All the evil is being dealt with and Christ's salvation is coming to you sing a new song to the

Lord the second verse the well, actually the fourth verse second stanza

The Lord is great great praise. He's do he's feared above all gods for people's gods are mere idols are

The Lord the heavens made before him honor majesty and strength and splendor dwell it's it's singing of the salvation of God coming

To mankind it goes on further in the next one where it tells all families of the earth to ascribe glory to the

Lord So when it says to sing a new song, I think they're doing just that by singing the song

That is there in in the Psalter sing a new song to the Lord It's the song of Christ's salvation as it's come to mankind so would it make sense if I were to finish your statement there by saying that they are singing a

New song to the Lord by those who have been ordained to write the new song.

Yep Okay, 100 % and and Becky's right. The tune is all hail the power of Jesus name for Psalm 96

Psalm 96 96 a 96 B's a little different We've got we've got options

Got you. Let me throw this at you and tell me if you've thought about this before or maybe this is something that you can

You can throw at your counsel It seems to me that reform reform folks from presbyterian form

Baptist Reformers many

Protestants We we hold to sola scriptura mm -hmm, and so when we preach and we exegete we

We preach exposition Lee. We're going verse by verse through God's Word to the

Bible. He wouldn't you wouldn't ever Have someone to host the sola scriptura expositional preaching you wouldn't ever have any preacher

Exegete and exposition Lee preach John MacArthur's commentary ever

From the pulpit. Nope, you only exceed an exposition Exposition Lee preach

God's Word, correct, right? So that seems to be if you're going to be consistent with sola scriptura and Preaching from God's Word, why wouldn't you

Sing God's Word as well Well, that's that's just it if if God has regulated his worship in such a way that we are using his word and Then we should also use his music if he's given it to us.

Yeah, so are we

What's the level then of preaching and singing we we tend to elevate

Preaching higher than we do the singing but in singing we are teaching

We are exalting God's Word We are doing many of the same things that the preaching is doing we're convicting of sin.

We are glorifying God We are hiding God's Word in our heart.

I think guys were in our heart. We are pointing to Christ Yep pointing to the Savior. So how would how would you see that then?

Well? Are Should we elevate the preaching of God's Word higher than we do the singing of God's Word?

If we are actually singing God's Word practicing the regular principle, are they more equal at this point?

I Think it is because here's the thing God's God's Word is always the central part of God's worship

We see that When we read the scriptures when we sing from the psalter

Even when we're engaged in the sacraments and prayer we are obeying

Christ through Through what he's told us in his word

We engage in the Lord's Supper. We are being Fed communing something with the

Lord are receiving grace from his From his sacrifice for us and his is his is joining us with himself

So it's it's all equal because What we do when we engage in worship is we?

Calvin put it this way. He said it was a it's a conversation Between God and man where God calls to us and we respond in kind So God has called to us through his word and we respond by singing his word back to him

He's called to us to repent. And so we respond by Confessing our sins in prayer.

He's called to us to hear his word preached And so we respond by singing his word back to him.

He's called to us Through the Lord's Supper to come in and sup with him And so we respond by eating and drinking what has been laid before us trusting that he is he's with us so I forget how you phrased your question, but I Think that answered it

I just forgot how you phrased your question for me to put a little bow on the top of it well, it just seems like in in In our more conservative reform

Churches reform thinkers reform preachers, you know, some of our churches may not be not a lot of reform pastors believers are in Technically reformed churches, but in churches that think conservatively who

I have a high view of Scripture Still tend to elevate the preaching of God's Word above everything else.

Yeah, but if the other things that you are doing are

God's God's Word by singing and You're singing

God's Word Which is bringing forth doctrine bring forth truth bring forth conviction bring forth the gospel pointing to Christ it should be as elevated as as the preaching of God's Word because it's

Doing the same thing but just in a different format Right. Um You've seen that historically in in different churches

Lutheran Anglican even Roman Catholic churches will have the altar as a centerpiece with The elements for the

Lord's Supper there and oftentimes the pulpit is placed to the side So there's different emphasis

But you're right since it's been commanded by God each Each element of worship should be taken as seriously as as the rest.

There's no More or less important. They are all You know commanded by God.

So they are all equal of equal importance even though We tend to think of the highlight when we hear

God's Word spoken to us because That's what what you want you want

God to speak You know, he speaks to us through his word and through the preaching of his word as it's done rightly so I understand we know where people are coming from because preaching is absolutely crucial, but it's

It's no luck It's no more important than anything else that God has commanded for us because it's all his means of grace of calling his people to himself

Yeah, and that challenges my convictions because you giving those examples makes me think of going into Those churches that you were talking about and and seeing the pulpit

May be elevated but elevated to the side And it maybe you have to what what we've called stands or pulpits one on each side one for the the reading and one for the preaching and then you have the the altar in the middle and then

We as Baptists, we're we're people of the book we Put the word at the center.

That's why the pulpit as is at the center it you know All those things are symbolic but You know talking about this and learning about this if we are if we're obeying

God's Word in in Those things and in all those things that we're doing then that like you said, they're all important, right?

and if we're seeing God's what singing God's Word then It's The Holy Spirit can use

God's Word whether you're preaching it or singing it. Mm -hmm to convict to What's the passage

I'm thinking about rebuke rebuke reproved

Exhort. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah that passage he can use that just the same because it's

God's Word And so, um, it's a beautiful thing to have have that view of God's Word that We trust in it we are putting our trust in in God's Word and in not our own means of grace

Yeah. Yeah, it was it was really freeing Not to have to worry about the theology in a song if you're singing if you're singing from the from the

Psalter You don't even have to look Like just take your guard down.

I mean as long as you know that the Psalter has been translated properly Yeah, so I guess somebody could go in there and have some evil shenanigans and Try to mess something up.

Oh, yeah well, we're gonna have to have a part two to get the the last part of that section and then the

Discussion on instruments in worship. Yeah. No. No before we start to wrap up.

Yeah I Do want to read a little bit from the Westminster Confession of Faith Um because it's in there

But it says this in chapter 21 Verse 5 now in case anybody is not familiar with how we use

Confessions of faith. We don't believe that the confession is on the same Level as scripture, but we believe that it it faithfully

Distills the doctrine of scripture so that we can we can understand it in a more systematic way

So it's not Infallible if we find something that is wrong.

We should change it. We don't hold it up as the Word of God It's not even on the same level

But it's a helpful tool and understanding what the scriptures teach

So the the Westminster Confession says this about about worship in general It says the read about what is good to do in worship

This is the reading of scriptures with godly fear the sound preaching and conscionable hearing of the word.

So reading of the scriptures good preaching Listening, you know on purpose which also means show up well -rested

In obedience to God with understanding faith and reverence the singing of Psalms with grace in the heart as Also the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments that are instituted by Christ are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God and Then it goes on to talk about Oaths and vows that are proper as well as it's given by God So it says right there in the confession that we should be singing

Psalms Doesn't give any place for other Other songs, so I Don't know fellow fellow

Westminster Ian's I Feel comfortable

This this is gonna be my last question for for this episode but I feel comfortable asking you this question because I know you and I Trust the answer that you'll give

Based on character. So this is your conviction. This is a conviction of many in your in your denomination

So, what about me Me personally and the church that I go to and and other churches who who are not following the regular principle

Who are singing? Who are trying to sing

Theologically sound songs that are God's Word or from God's Word But not exactly

God's Word like it's not from the Psalter exactly word for word Um What's your conviction about Your brothers and sisters in different churches doing it that way.

Well First off. I like the way you phrased the question because it makes it easy to answer

First off we consider them brothers and sisters There as as long as they trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins father son and Holy Spirit the proper understanding of who

God is and and they believe in the true gospel then

They are our brothers and sisters and we will see them in glory We believe that since God has commanded

Since we believe that God has commanded the singing of Psalms and Psalms only in Scripture that they're in error

But I would liken it to our difference between the administration of baptism

That you think I'm wrong. Mm -hmm. I think you're wrong. We'll say in error because wrong sounds a little heavy -handed

Error errors pretty harsh too, but well Your error sounds softer.

Anyway, you didn't have the hard G in there Um We both believe each other to be an error, but we don't believe that it pulls us away from the faith so we can still you know worship together although I may have to I'll have to wrestle through some convictionary things if I'm at your place

But we can we can we can worship together and trust each other Not trust each other that we can point each other to Christ and believe that we'll see each other one day

We can work with each other to you know evangelize the world It's it's like other

Other Doctrinal differences that while all doctrines important because we believe it comes from God to to man

Some things are not to the level where we should shun or Separate too far from each other

Does that what you're getting that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so How would you wrestle with that and I'm I'm sorry to drag it on.

It just makes me curious Would you be able you know coming into my fellowship?

You know having a level of trust and then being discerning about the song would would your conviction allow you to sing along if you if that level of trust was met and you were comfortable with the

Song or you can you convicted? No, it's only the Psalter and I'll just I'll stand but I'll you know,

I won't sing well At the laborers conference because this is this is gonna be a thing that happens at the laborers conference

We're gonna have we're gonna music there Yeah, um, I don't think that's Technically corporate worship.

It's not the elders of a church calling together a Commanded meeting of the church.

So, you know, we're saying in and I'm going to have to leave that question unanswered as to whether I was visiting a church or not because that actually came up in the

RPC and a's last synod meeting out of the Pacific Presbytery they were

They asked a question. I Guess a student. I don't know this too. I don't want to say

More than I should but a student was asked a question about if he were to go to a different church

You know the same question you asked me. Yeah, and They sustained him in his exam

You know, they said okay, but then they came to to synod and we're like Did we do this right and so they're they're there we're talking it we're talking it out amongst ourselves even

You know, is it a Is it a how how how tightly do we hold on to it?

Is this a a Hard and fast conviction or is this a

Best practice or is this a we think we're right but we're gonna be humble about it and so I Since our synod is going to be talking that over.

I'm just gonna leave that to Why why is there men then then

I smart answer Especially because I'm still taking exams myself well,

I'm Maybe gonna put you on the spot a little bit. We want to share the gospel. Sure and Would you be able to share with us because you've been singing the

Psalter for a Good while now. Yeah, would you be able to share the gospel from the the

Psalter? Yeah, when it's the point is to Christ from the soul up the blue one Good it to Two places

Let's see the in Psalm 2

I'm not gonna sing it In Psalm 2

The the God is talking to the nation saying why are the

Gentile nations raging against God? Don't they know I've already set up my son.

He says he declared you are my son. I brought you forth this day Ask of me and I'll make ask of me and you

I'll make heir to earth and nations all Them with iron rods you'll break smashing them in pieces small we are all as Human beings members of these nations who hate

God by Default and we don't always think of it like that we don't always think of it as as us hating

God because a fish doesn't necessarily know that he's wet Doesn't understand the water these in because it's what he's used to But what the

Bible tells us is that when when Adam fell sin passed to all men and We have taken that sinful nature and the creation that we live in and Warned against God by not following his law by following other gods by seeking our own pleasure instead of his his will

And so we're called Even in this psalm. It says kiss the

Sun His wrath to turn lest you perish in your stride

For his anger soon may burn blessed are all who in him hide so while we are those who are part of these nations who us ourselves look to God and Says we war against him by our sin.

It also tells us to look to the Sun to look to him to it says here to kiss to pay homage to trust in the

Lord to look to the one who has come and Died on the behalf of men that we may find our refuge in him

We know that this speaks of Jesus who came who died who took the sins of men upon himself

Who sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven and is now calling a people to himself and he calls to each one of us to kiss the

Sun To turn his wrath away from us To turn to him so that his wrath may be turned away from us that we may find in him to be a perfect Savior There's other places in the

Psalms that speak of those things. That's just one. That's just Psalm 2 And you go on into Psalm 110 and it speaks of Jesus with with mighty power show your rule among your enemies

And Here's the very next line Your people freely come throughout your day of power

For mornings dawn and holy robes your youth are like the dew The Lord has sworn an oath and will not change his mind

In the order of Melchizedek you ever are a priest What that saying is that even though?

His power and might will be strong among his enemies He's still calling a people to come to him and they cause us in such a way

That he desires us to freely come to him come Or is it say?

By robes and Bread without money purchase and income come to me find me to be the perfect Savior And that's just from two

Psalms So what we find is a Christ who has come and lived the perfect life on the behalf of men who calls us to turn from our sin and to trust in him and it shows that we are citizens of a kingdom adopted sons and daughters of God a brother of Christ if We will turn from our sins and we will find him to be a perfect Savior by trusting in him

And paying homage to the Son who is ruler over all creation Amen praise the

Lord Let's pray together father. We thank you for your word.

We thank you for your Psalms that are your word How you inspired?

men to write these things down and you've kept them for us and You allow us to put music to them

That we can that we can sing them back to you that we can learn that we can be edified. We can be healed

We can we can see the Savior through your words Father may we may we bask and be in awe and Be be warmed

By your word by your Psalms father. We we look to you for our means of Life godliness and practice and worship

Because Our ways have been ways of destruction and death and and wrath

Since the fall give us a heart

Oh Lord To follow your word because it's your ways.

It's your means We desire to glorify you Father thank you for your son who is a perfect Savior One that we don't deserve but it's through your loving kindness that you and your amazing grace that you saw fit to rescue us and so we exalt your son

Jesus and glorify you and We're thankful for your spirit who helps us to see and understand.

We pray these things in Jesus name. Amen Dan I appreciate you teaching us tonight and helping us understand a regulative principle.

This has been the truth and love podcast Remember that Jesus is King go live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.