TiL- Regulative Principle of Worship

Yes, thank you for joining us this evening tonight. We're going to look at the regulative principle of worship and Dan is going to help me help him study for his pastoral Ordination exam in the Presbyterian Church.

Stick with us. This should be a good conversation. Welcome back to the truth love podcast. It doesn't matter what platform you are watching us on the chat line is open it all. Streams right to us and we can we can see it live.

But if you have any what be watching it or listening to it later Leave us a comment and we will see. You have a question. We'll try to answer that as well. But but at least let us know that you're watching.

We appreciate your prayers and support as we work together to try to get out the gospel teach some doctrine and Yeah, just fellowship in the Lord don't okay. Dan doing great.

Good. I still don't understand why we have to do time the way that we do in America. I think Arizona's probably got it got it right or they don't. They don't change at all. They just keep on trucking along but.

But anyway, we'll be so we all right. We'll make it. You would you prefer to have the light in the morning or the light?

In the evening, uh.

Probably in the evening in the evening. Yeah, whatever we do during the summer just make that our time. Yeah, just keep that rolling. Yeah, cuz. This this far north. You hit time change and then around Christmas time.

It's like pitch black at 430 and it's just depressing like once the Christmas lights are gone those first two weeks of January. No, man, it's just. Like you you go to work. It's getting light as you get there.

You leave work. It's getting dark as you get home. Feel like your whole days. Gone, I don't know. I feel like I want to go to bed and look around. It's 530. I feel I feel like it's too late to go out and do anything, but it's it's no 530.

It's wild.

Yeah. We it does seem to give us more time in the evening to to be able to get some things accomplished. That you normally wouldn't because it gets dark. Oh, yeah. Yeah speaking of lights and Christmas.

Should we have lights should we not have lights? Let's use that as a transition to regulative principle of worship. Should we have music should we not have music? We're just we're gonna be discussing the regular principle of worship here at the beginning.

Well for the most part. And all the questions that you sent me. Is is this a you are going for the pastoral ordination process going through that in the RPC and a correct? Yep it is. Is this common throughout all Presbyterian most Presbyterian churches or just the RPC and a this.

Well, the regulative principle itself is common across all Will say conservative Presbyterian churches. We in the RPC and a take it a step. Oh My converted Rob to be a Presbyterian area so as we In the RPC and a we are a little bit We get we can take it a step further so we hold to the regular principle As well as exclusive psalmody and no in use no use of instruments in worship.

Look let me ask you this question before we move forward. Can you hear me speaking? I can hear you, but you are frozen. Your video is frozen. Okay, that's what I thought.

Let me go out and come back in. All right. We've never had to do this before but hey, we're live. Yeah, I know we're live. I've never froze before.

All right, well while Roberts gone I will I guess say a little something about the regular principle when it comes to the worship of God. The there are two schools of thought. One is the normative principle and one is the regulative principle.

The regulative principles states that because God is who he is God is able to To Regulate how his worship is conducted. The normative principle says that if if God is not expressly for Bidding it in worship, then we're okay to Forbidden it were or it being sinful then We can engage in that practice in in worship.

So some people Understand that a little bit differently however broad strokes. The regulative principle boils down to several points that are Allowed or regulated or permitted in worship being the preaching of God's Word the reading of God's Word singing to him prayer and Engaging in the sacraments.

So I just kind of went over the difference to a basic difference between the regulative principle and the normative principle. Kind of get the Get the wheels turning while you were while you were gone.

Yeah, and I read an article years and years and years ago.

And it was from a guy who was the music director. I feel like it was the music director at a church that I Approve of that. I like I like the pastor. I love his preaching. I really thought it was him.

There was article I think I reached out to him. He said it wasn't him. I can't find the article again, but he he made it. He didn't go with one side of the other he kind of made a middle ground and called it biblical worship.

Because he he likes stuff from both sides and I really wish I could find that article again because it was a great article and it kind of. It kind of hit me where I was at the time. And maybe still am but we're currently helping you study for your exam and and the RPC and a so.

Yes, so this particular exam is well, I'm doing two of them one is a basic English Bible knowledge exam and the one that we're gonna work through part of it is is a systematic theology and Reform Presbyterian distinctives.

So I will I'll be seated in front of the the Presbytery pastors delegates from every church in our region in our Presbytery and I will be grilled by a Retired pastor who is well respected in our in our Presbytery.

For and I looked at the time frame and they they gave him 45 minutes to To both grill me and for everyone to vote to say if I'm I did well enough to to be sustained. Or or pass. I guess that would be.

We say you're sustained in your exam you pass.

Yeah, that seems like it's a sufficient amount of time because I think you. There's a part two.

Part two in about a Year six months year and a half something like that. So you do it twice.

Well, we're gonna bring up some terminology that not everybody may be familiar with so this first one is exclusive. Psalmody.

What is it. Exclusive psalmody is the practice that we only sing the Psalms in worship. So if you come to a reformed Presbyterian Church part of the RPC and a When you come in, you'll see a blue Do. You will see this blue Psalter.

It says the book of Psalms for worship was put out by a crown and covenant publishers. They're part of the RPC and a publishing folks and in here or 150 Psalms all of them set to music and We will be singing out of that Psalter.

I Say that with one thing if you go to a couple congregations They'll be singing out of a red one because they like it better and they didn't make the switch over to the blue one. But still the hundred and fifty Psalms Set to music and we will be singing those in in worship.

So we were of the conviction that Because of The regulative principle because of the way that God has laid things out in the scriptures. That is what we are permitted to do in Corporate worship. So when we gather together as a church, we're singing the Psalms.

And and I guess this question in my mind is going to come up later when we talk about instruments but you talk about the the Psalms. The 150 Psalms in that hymn book are put to music and so. You we've got this section to talk about about no instruments.

And so in my mind and we can save this for later, but I'm just in my mind. I'm thinking How do you how do you get on tune? How do you start on tune? How do you know the tune of the song?

It's those kind of things. Would come to my mind sure. Yes some practical stuff would be be cool. I We had our first morning service at the Oneana Reformed Presbyterian Church preaching station. It we're planning a church in Oneana so Ryan the fellow who is doing the preaching he's he's our associate pastor elect who's working on that work.

He'll be ordained hopefully in the next few months. He asked me if I would lead the music this this Sunday when we were there and so. What you do is you you call out which song you're going to sing? The Psalms are set to music as in it looks just like a hymnal.

Mm-hmm. Your notes. Down there at the bottom. It'll have a familiar. I have a tune and a meter. The meter Means that if you don't know the tune, but you know another tune. With the same meter you can sing it along for instance Amazing Grace and Gilligan's Island the theme song are both in the same meter so you can interchange both the lyrics and The melody when you sing those so at some point you're gonna have to try to sing to yourself Amazing Grace to the tune of Gilligan's Island theme song.

But then someone stands up front they they hum the first line of music and then give a starting pitch and then They just go and you you sing it can be a little awkward at first if you're not used to it, but It it's very simple.

You just kind of catch on and a lot of the the tunes in here are familiar hymns that people would know. Mm-hmm, or or like in the case of Psalm 5 a Simon Simon and Garfuckle song.

Well, it really sounds like a a distant cousin to the to the old primitive Baptist style where they would. Of course they they taught their children at a young age the the do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do scale and that's how they taught them the notes and how to sing and then they would.

They would do the tune of the song according to the do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do scale and Then they would sing the song because they had learned it first using that scale and then they would sing the song with the words and.

So just a distant cousin because you talked about how you home would home the tune the first line first before you would sing and I always thought that'd be fascinating to be a part of that service where you were learning the scales learning.

Learning music that way and everybody learned it. Everybody's saying that way without instruments and and to music. Music is I don't know. It's it's inspiring. It's it's emotional. It's it's you know.

It'd be nice on the ears what many many positive things about music, but there's also something To about not having the music drowned out the voices, but hearing the words and hearing the voices hearing the harmonies hearing The voices in unison is a beautiful thing as well.

Yeah.

I've had the privilege to To be a part of some some larger groups that that We're getting there. Becky. We've had some some opportunities to be a part of some some larger groups that would sing psalms Acapella with no instruments and The Power of just the the voice singing God's Word is.

It's incredible. Yeah, plus, you know having You sing you go through it enough week after week singing the Psalms over and over again you start memorizing them. Especially because they're set to music which helps You to encourage one another from the Psalms, which is something that it's it's good to do.

Yeah, so there's no doubt that you guys.

Wouldn't do this without a biblical basis right out of foundation or background. So where do where do you get it from? What's your biblical argument?

Well first we start from The Old Old Testament commandment where God sets up his worship and in the first when he's talking to the people of Israel and He warns them not to invent ways to worship himself.

So Deuteronomy 12 Starting in verse Let's see 28 he says be careful to listen to all these words, which I command you. So that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever. For you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of Yahweh your God.

So pay attention do this and you'll be doing what you're supposed to do. When Yahweh your God cuts off before you the nations, which you are going into. The nations which you are going in to dispossess and you dispossess them and inhabit their land.

Beware lest you are being snared to follow them after they are destroyed before you. Unless you inquire after their God saying how do these nations serve their gods that I may do likewise. Now I understand that to say not how can we serve their gods?

But how do they serve their gods so we can serve Yahweh our God in the same way He's telling them don't do that in verse 31. He says you shall not do thus towards Yahweh your God. For every abominable act which Yahweh hates they have done for their gods.

For and then he gives the extreme example of what they've done. For they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. So what is it that he says at the end to sum it up whatever I'm commanding you.

You shall be careful to do it. You shall not add to it nor take away from it. And it's that principle where God sets up his worship and he sets it up for the Old Testament saints. He says as I'm commanding you to do this you do what I say you don't do more than what I say you don't do less than what I say and Those who hold of the regulative principle believe that.

That principle that we do only what God has commanded. Nothing more nothing less. We do that even today in in the New Testament in Today, that's what we do. So if God's commanded it we do it. It hasn't commanded it.

We don't do it. So when it comes to The singing of Psalms there has to be a command from God for us to actually sing. In order for us to be okay to sing. So we look at what God is as a commanded. Look at passages like in in first Chronicles.

I'm gonna hit a lot of Chronicles today. First Chronicles 16. David is there and David is he's a Establishing some some stuff for worship. There's a tent for the Ark of the Covenant. He's saying now here.

Here's what's going to happen so starting it in first Chronicles 16. And They brought in the Ark of God and placed it inside the tent which David had pitched for it. And they brought burnt offerings and peace offerings near before God which God had commanded in Exodus and Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

So you have the sacrifices of God had commanded the Ark of the Covenant which God had commanded them to make. Then David completed the burnt offerings and the peace offerings and he blessed the people in the name of Yahweh and He apportioned to everyone of Israel both men and women.

To everyone a loaf of bread and a portion of meat and a raisin cake, which just sounds delicious. And here here's here's an important part verse 4, I mean, it's all important but here's relevant to what we're talking about.

And he made some of the Levites ministers before the Ark of Yahweh even to bring remembrance and Thank and praise Yahweh the God of Israel so some of the Levites were set apart to Stay before the Ark of the Covenant in order to do certain things on a recurring basis and that is is a part of the worship of God.

So if we go on a little bit further into first Chronicles 25 we see exactly who those people were and what they were supposed to do. So in the first seven verse and if anybody has questions stop me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna have to build the case and then we can we can talk about it in first Chronicles 25.

It says moreover David and the commanders of the army separated For the service some of the sons of Asaph and of Heman and Juduth and Who were to prophesy? With liars harps and cymbals and The number of those who perform who perform their service was and then it lists these people.

It is It it's important to note that in here it says that these were To prophesy they were being given being given Words to say from from God it says this in verse 3 down here in verse 5. One of them was the king seer a Prophet to the king who was supposed to inquire of God for him.

And it says this in verse 6 and all these it was those four there were 17 and All plus their their leaders all these were under the direction of their father to sing in the house of Yahweh, so there was there was a Group of ministers who were to sing in the house of God Asaph and Was Juduth and Heman were under the direction of the king and their number who were trained to sing To Yahweh with all the relatives and all who are skillful.

So the full number of the musicians was 288 there was a large group of people who were Levites who were supposed to then go and Sing so David began the process of singing In Conjunction with the the people or the the worship of God as God had commanded God had commanded the Ark of the Covenant to be made he had commanded the sacrifices to be put upon the altar and in in conjunction with all of that.

You have these ministers who were supposed to come in and sing and play their instruments at certain various times during Old Testament worship with that said wife. She's fun. So with that said in 2nd Chronicles 29 so this is further on Hezekiah Who is?

Reforming a bunch of stuff in Israel. He's trying to make sure that things are going. Well that people are doing what they're supposed to be doing. He became a King and he a part of what he set up was was singing.

Let's see, I went to the Step too far. Here we go in verse 30 Chronicles 29 verse 30. It says this. Look back up into 29. Now at the completion of the burnt offerings the king and all who are present with him bowed down and worships.

They were bowing and worship. This is corporate worship. Moreover King Hezekiah and the officials ordered the Levites to sing praises to Yahweh and here's what they were commanded to sing with with the words of David and Asaph the seer.

So they sang praises with gladness and bowed down in worship. So all of the singing that went on in the Old Testament that was commanded by God was either written by a by prophets. Who were given these words?

In order to to sing or by David and the prophets all of them were inspired words of God given to the people in order for them to worship during the worship in the temple. Which means that these weren't just these weren't just songs that they were making up off the top of their head.

These were these were the words of the Lord coming to the people From God through the proper channels in order to be used for worship at the command of God. So that is what. That that's how Old Testament singing took place.

Now what's interesting is before Hezekiah said that you had David and the prophets who were Writing the Psalms when Hezekiah came along. He said well, what are we going to sing? We're going to sing only the inspired Psalms that's been given to us by God and this was also done at the Was done because of Of as part of reforms to bring people back into the true and proper worship of God.

So that is that's a basic Old Testament case for how they sang Psalms in the Old Testament and Which Psalms and which songs and how it came about and how they they got them? Now figure this would be a good place to Ask if you want to interject questions before we get into what how the how that how we pull all that from Chronicles and Deuteronomy into the New Testament.

Well, I do have a question, but it's not necessarily on Your argument for the regular principle in Old Testament. It's it's a sub category based on one of the passages that you read it in your your first passage in first Chronicles 25.

You talk about how the the the instrument players your. Would you call them worship leaders. Sure. They prophesied. Yep. Now to me you can tell me if you think You would agree with this but would that be a strong argument for male Leadership when it comes to worship.

Because they they are Prophesying bring forth the the Word of God alongside of the music.

No, okay. Here's why well, I do believe it says that All of this came about by the direction of God to limit it to men would take verse 5 And kind of do do some some harm to it because all these were sons of Haman the king seer To exalt him according to the words of God, but so God gave 14 sons and three daughters.

Okay. So there were sons and daughters now It doesn't say that the sons were the ones who were going to be singing but he it looks like they employed employed his daughters as well. Now it also Seems that they were the sons and daughters were the musicians and That he was the one who's actually writing down the the words to the songs that they were going to be be writing.

This that's interesting. So do you think it. Do you think the daughters were doing any prophesying at that time? I Don't know.

I don't know as if the text is clear enough because I don't really think that's the point of the text. I think they're trying to show that they the worship of God was being done. God's way is being set up.

That the Levites would have. The Levites would be the ones who would be leading the the singing at that time.

Which which were the the Levites that were the with a priest I mean they were all male.

Well, the Levites. The Levites that served in the house of God were all were all men, correct? Yeah, but but there was there was women in the tribe of Levi. Otherwise, it would have been gone after the first the first generation.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So, I guess we want to make that transition. Which which brings on a whole other set of things here. From the That you wrote down so. You said there's there's no New Testament office of songwriter.

Right. There is there's there's no Person said to be it because God had given songs for for his Old Testament church to sing through the prophets. If we're going to be singing songs different than what they're singing we would have prophets That would also sing in the New Testament today.

Or or prophets who would write the music for the New Testament today. We don't see that anywhere. Which means that that we would. We shouldn't be looking for for new new music right in.

Another sidebar, but. We know that the Psalms were sung you know, they they were. They were for singing but yet when they're when they're used in the New Testament, they're quoted for their doctrine. Right and they're teaching which is which should tell us something about music and the songs that we sing.

Yeah. Well.

One of the reasons why why God wanted us to To sing especially the Psalms is that The the Psalms have been said to be a little Bible. If you took just the Psalter And read through it you can get the doctrines of the Bible.

You see The the sacrifice for sins forgiveness of sins Christ kingship in Psalm 2 his Psalm 110 where he is reigning and ruling. What to do when you When you sin think of David as he laments it over his sin and he sings No to God no seeking forgiveness.

You have all of it there and you don't have People complain they don't get to sing the name of Jesus. But you you kind of are because you're singing about Christ all throughout the Psalms. He's everywhere.

So, so here's my throwback for some questions concerning that that comment. There's no New Testament office. Songwriter. Going back to the Old Testament. Was was there a particular office? This is the office for songwriter or was was There an office.

A position Which I think you talked about People being in that position and that was one of the duties of that position. Was has there ever been an office of songwriter?

Well, there were Levites who were set apart for the specific purpose of writing and singing songs in Old Testament worship.

Okay, so you would consider that an office of songwriter or part of their.

One of their job descriptions, even if you don't say well I would say it's an office because they were set apart specifically for that task. Not all the Levites were given the task of music. Now whether you want to call it an office or not, you know that they had a specific Specific task given to them by God to do that.

You don't see that in the New Testament.

So going back to the the New Testament and the New Covenant now that we're in. So there's no office or there there's no. Nothing described in the New Testament like there is in the Old Testament. We'll say it like that.

Would it be forbidden then to write a song to God?

Yes, and no, okay. I love all your answers. Yes, and yes, and no. It depends on on what the purpose of that song is. If it's for corporate worship, I would say no that's not allowed. If it's not for corporate worship, then praise God all you want.

I thought that's where you would make that distinction. Yeah, corporate worship versus things outside of corporate worship, yeah. Yeah.

Because really the regulative principle of worship is only regulating Christ corporate worship, you know a couple worship of God.

And I think that's an important distinction to make.

Yeah, yeah it's not regulating all all of life just How God wants to be worshipped because way back in Deuteronomy he tells the Old Testament Church Don't worship me other in in a way other than what I have called you to worship me.

So, I mean, it's the same God same church just in the New Testament now. So why would we do something other than what God has commanded us to do? I don't believe we should Got you know because what we end up doing is we'll end up bringing in things from the culture around us.

You know, what are the things that people like, you know, think of the seeker sensitive movement. What do people like and how do they worship their gods? Maybe we can do that and attract people to church.

And it's it's the same pitfall as the the Israelites when they went in and conquered the land. I mean May not be some of the extremes, you know, I'm not seeing people passing their sons and daughters through the fire but we do see In some extreme cases some pretty wild stuff.

Motorcycles and pyrotechnic shows and yeah all sorts of streams while raising this the craziness, yeah, but.

Let's say this at the very least in that The regular principle of worship. Let's say that It's not the absolute Only way let's say let's just say for instance, it's it's not. At we can say the very least the regular principle of worship is a safeguard against all those things you were talking about.

At the very least it is a safeguard but it's the safeguard that's put in place by God, right. So, I mean if God said it Really pretty important safeguard to retain right and then and that's part of it.

Just like.

Just like learning a catechism learning doctrine. It's a safeguard against heresy. Learning God's Word. It's a safeguard against Hide your hide God's Word in your heart that you may not sin against him God's Word how he wants to do things.

It's all a safeguard against false worship. I don't worship Self-worship false doctrine all these things. Yeah, so and and that's that's the case that you're trying to build that this is this is God's way and one of the One of the benefits is that safeguard?

Yep, absolutely. So the next thing that you got on here, I'm not sure if it's a question or a comment, but you've got on here Psalms hymns and spiritual songs, which is which comes from the New Testament.

Yeah, absolutely comes from the New Testament. So that expands Psalms which.

Which. You know that that's kind of our premise where we started exclusive psalmody only singing psalms, but the New Testament. How do you reconcile that where it says psalms hymns and spiritual songs?

What's the difference? How is that?

Sticking with exclusive psalmody. Oh, I don't have to reconcile it at all. Okay. No, it's great here. Let's explain. If he Ephesians 5 19 well, let's back up into into 18 He says and do not get drunk with wine.

For that is dissipation, but be filled with the Holy but be filled with the Spirit. So don't be filled with wine. Be filled with the Spirit. And what does that filling with the Spirit lead to? Verse 19 speaking to one another.

Fill the spirit with psalms hymns and spiritual songs. Singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord now psalms hymns and spiritual songs is Written down here. And so it's a weird construct in in Greek and I'm not gonna bore too much but when you stack the word chi, which means and several times in place Where it says psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

He didn't just put it in a list. It means that the the thing that modifies the the last Um Thing that you're talking about last noun there. Can it can apply to all of them? So when it says spiritual songs it means spiritual psalms spiritual hymns spiritual songs here's Really cool part about that.

It's telling us to be filled with the Spirit and to speak to one another Through spiritual psalms spiritual hymns spiritual songs those three designations hymns psalms and songs are what you find on the titles of each of the psalms in The Psalter some of them are called psalms.

Some of them are called hymns. Some of them are called songs. So What I see here is that he's he's telling them to Speak to one another using the Psalter. Use the hymns use the songs use the Psalms. You know as as they're written in in the Psalter all while singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord.

So I don't think we have to reconcile it because I don't think it expands it I think he's calling the Psalter by name and saying here's what you should be encouraging each other with as you gather together and Sing with one another.

Yeah so Let me get this straight that passage says speak to one another in This manner not sing to eat sing to one another in this matter, but speak to one another in these matter. So to me that goes back to These Psalms are used for doctrine and and the thought that popped my mind was this is so much like And this passage to me is it's so much like new fetic counseling where you're using a Scripture To Edify and build up Using the Psalms the these hymns and songs to to encourage to edify to heal one another with the doctrine.

Right. Well, it says both it says to speak these things to one another and then how do you speak it to one other? Singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord so these are things that can be you you can search them for doctrine and and preach them and sing them and They're just as much scriptures as any other part of the Bible.

So yeah, I think I think you're you're picking up on something great there. Yeah. Yeah, it uh, it also lists that again in Colossians. Colossians 16 Says I'll let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another.

And Here's where it it gets it's a little weird. This is a two-part Command here where it's actually talking about About preaching the word and singing of The Psalms that it doesn't bring it out. So well in the legacy standard Bible, but the ESV brings it out fairly clearly.

I don't know if I have a copy Somewhere. I don't know. But what it what it when it says Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another. You can almost read a comma there with Psalms hymns and spiritual songs.

Singing with gratefulness in your hearts to the Lord. So you're looking at the Word of God being preached and The Psalms hymns and spiritual songs, which I believe is referring to the Psalter and those Psalms hymns and songs of Christ singing with gratefulness in your hearts to the Lord.

Which would mean that the New Testament when we have a Picture of worship of things that we're supposed to be doing with one another when we gather together. We see the preaching of the word the singing of the Psalms.

Obviously Paul says elsewhere. He desires to see all men praying together lifting up. Holy hands and our Lord. Instituting the Lord's Supper and baptism, so we see all the elements of the regulative principle of singing preaching scripture reading Prayer and the sacraments or ordinances depending on if you're Baptist or not if you're Baptist.

Oh.

I like it. I like it. I like it. I like the regular principle. You're just not gonna build a whole lot of numbers. I think using the regular principle. Well, here's the thing.

It doesn't matter because Unless the Lord builds the house those who labor do so in vain. That's right. It's something that comes from the Psalter that we sing from so we're going to be just fine.

What good doctrine what good doctrine? I'm glad you brought up this next part because that's that's something that's gonna be thrown at you. It's something that popped in my mind when I first I first saw.

That we sing in church.

This next part that I want to talk about as long as we're singing a talk about the same thing. Yeah.

Let's see if we are. So somebody's gonna throw at you. Of course Psalm 96 where it says sing to the Lord a new song. So why can't we why can't we make up a new song and sing it to the Lord in church? Oh.

Because this is the new song that was being sung. These songs were all new At the time that they're being written. Look at Psalm 96 Which is to the tune I can't remember it seems in this coronation. It's uh.

Do you know it from from from a hymnal? Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum.

See that now that's not where I feel like we would get stuck if not everybody knew the the tune. Oh, that's where preparation comes from. I guess. Yeah bearing for them. Yeah.