Purgatory and Modern Roman Apologists, Plus Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James wife.

Upcoming Debate on Purgatory and Travel Plans

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line the only dividing line of this particular week, though. Of course, it will be my intention To live stream the debate Friday evening 7 p .m Pacific Still daylight time, isn't it?

That's coming up pretty quick though. It's is it the when it was it? No, no, no, no, they moved that back. I know they moved that babe. They extended it. So it's it's coming up pretty quick here I Would I would assume?

Well, somebody in somebody in channel will know when it is, but It's 7 p .m Pacific Standard Time, so when somebody in channel, let me know when And when the when that's gonna remember 7th, really I thought they moved it back to October.

Well, anyway. Oh, that's right. They they move it later in the year later in the year and earlier earlier near they they expanded the The time period so it would be later. That's right. It used to be in October.

It's alright. Anyways 7 p .m And nothing will the time won't have changed. So it was just 7 p .m. Pacific Time sub goodness. That's that's 10 p .m. And he's so only the only the late-nighters gonna be listening to that one.

But anyways, I will do my best to have that live streaming with our little live streaming PC and Should should work out pretty well. It worked out real well with the Silverman debate, but you never know what's gonna happen.

You know when you miss a setting or if you get there late or whatever, but we'll do our best to have that running live 7 o 'clock Friday night Debating Robertson Janice on the subject of purgatory. Then the the next day this is going to be interesting from noon to 4 each speaker will give a lecture on the presuppositions of their debate topic that includes some Janice and Since my flights that afternoon.

I'm one of the first two speakers. Hopefully the first one and So I'm not even get to hear that and then Doug Padgett and Chris Roseboro Rose, bro, bro, bro Chris big Chris. Anyways, they're gonna be debating on the topic of hell.

I would like to hear that. I would like to see that it would be interesting but Folks like having me come to church once in a while. So I looked at how many Sundays I was gonna be out. I was out Sunday morning of this week.

I was there Sunday evening only part of me was there my mind was was fairly Fairly gone, but I was there and then I'm gonna be preaching on the 31st and I'm down in In Peru and I might be back to Sunday after that if all the flights work out coming back from from Peru.

And I haven't gotten some peruvial revenge and not proverbial peru peruvial. Well, we'll see what what happens with all that. So yes farming in Peru as as the great Milo Hudson Buehler Would would say but anyhow, so I'm looking forward to that.

And in fact, obviously it's difficult for me to Get my mind out on to other things though the phone calls might do that, but I was Yesterday I was as you know, I was up in Minnesota over the weekend. They gave me a really nice Vikings tie, which I wore proudly on Sunday.

Especially since I have a number of friends who are Cowboys fans. So it's nice to have my nice purple and gold Vikings tie on just just in honor of them and after the desperation bowl. But I bet as it may had a great time up there in in Minnesota.

And I appreciate all the work that went into making the chosen conference go off for a while. I should mention I I would love to be able to give you all sorts of details Here, but we're just not the point of being able to do so.

But I let a number of people know that I was going to be meeting with my publishers. With whom I have not published a book since. You know, I was actually wondering about that. Let me see here. This was the last one.

Do you do 2004? Yeah, it's been about six years. So I got up there and I had Pre I had sent up three book topics prior to getting there and they are very excited about two out of the three and. So we're going to be going forward on two book projects and I'm excited about that because it really is what I want to do.

I will be be able to tell you a little bit more as once things get absolutely firmed up and and things like that and. But I'm excited about it. It's been a long time since I wrote a book. I think the last one was pulpit crimes if I recall correctly and.

So I am looking forward to getting back there though. It's gonna be a little bit different, you know. A little bit difficult to make that kind of a switch. It will mean that I will not be able to travel quite as much.

And it will mean that if you desire me to come and speak It would be good if I was speaking on the same subjects as I will be writing. It is, you know spreading the field that makes things so so difficult.

So Very excited about that excited about how the weekend went and excited about going up to Newburgh, Oregon this this coming Thursday. The debate is Friday night 7 to 10 p .m and you can get the information from the beautiful banner ad at www .aomin .org.

I guess I don't need to give that to you because if you are listening right now live you already know that That's the only way you can be listening live anyways so Be praying for that encounter this this weekend as I said, I got back from Minnesota and Being the the cycling addict that I am I immediately got on the bike yesterday morning.

Did an 80 miler and that gives you a lot of time to be listening to stuff and what I had done is I had purchased The book called purgatory explained by the lives and legends of the Saints by FX Shoop FX shoot and this is a tan publication.

I've had for many years my particular Edition here looking past the knee hill obstinate and premature Is from about? 1986 yeah, 19 and 1988. So it's a little bit yellowed but it I decided to find out if it was available on Kindle it was so I grabbed it and mp3'd it and Listened for a number of hours.

I listened to two and a half hours. Or is it two hours? Well, I listened to two hours of Purgatory stuff in two and a half hours of Sahih al-Bukhari. So that was the mixture on the 80 mile ride yesterday and It was fascinating because some of you might recall that during the debate back in January with Tim Staples Tim was was so very kind to To Make the assertion that I I just I just don't understand Roman Catholicism.

Obviously, I I didn't understand You know what Rome teaches because I didn't understand What the current Pope has said? Now, of course what was actually going on is he as a modern Roman Catholic apologist is scared to death of Dealing with what the Roman Church has actually taught over the years on these particular subjects and He goes with his particular interpretation of You know the current Pope's writings and One of the issues that came up was the issue of you know, the fire now, obviously You can find saint after saint after saint who saw in the fire of 1st Corinthians chapter 3 a reference to purgatory.

But Tim wanted to you know, make sure minute. Well that the fire is actually the judgment of Christ. Okay, great I don't have any question about the fact that the fire tests the quality of men's works in Regards to leadership in the church.

We established that rather clearly. But you know, he wanted to make sure we understood, you know purgatory is not a place and it's it's a it's a state of mind and and you know the only thing about fire and all the rest that stuff and I suggested at that time that folks take a Look at Shoop's book.

He didn't say a word about I don't remember Tim Staples saying anything about that book whatsoever. But it's interesting that my opponent this weekend Robert St. Genes Is very much associated with Robert Bellarmine Cardinal Bellarmine a great name of Rome's past quite the controversialist and I think he has the Bellarmine forum on his website and and various and sundry things like that and So when I ran across this quote I found it rather interesting.

I wanted to read it to you. This is from page 8 of the book. Although faith tells us nothing definite regarding the location of purgatory the most common opinion that which most accords with the language of scripture and Which is the most generally received among theologians places it in the bowels of the earth not far from the hell of the reprobates.

Theologians are almost unanimous says Bellarmine in teaching that purgatory at least the ordinary place of expiation is Situated in the interior of the earth that the souls and purgatory and the reprobate are in the same subterranean space in the deep abyss which the scripture calls hell.

Catechism Romanum chapter 6 number 1. So they don't have any problem. Bellarmine has no problem in talking about the theologians being almost unanimous. That purgatory is a place And can be spatially located in time and space Similar to hell which is in the bowels of the earth as Was said at that point which I found very very interesting, but all the way through There is such a discussion in in almost every one of the visions and every one of the.

You know the Saints saw this this person and they were in purgatorial flames and over and over again. They're surrounded by fire. There's one guy who's wearing a collar of fire. People that they have there they've been given a partial garment which protects them from some of the fire.

But not all the fire fire fire fire fire all over the place fire. I don't know wherever I got the idea. It has something to do with purgatory. But you've got Saint after Saint after Saint after Saint was just as confused as me.

And we just needed Tim Staples to come along give us infallible guidance at that point, but Fire is a constant theme in all of these these visions as Is and this is this is what's interesting as is the concept of time.

Yes time in purgatory a period of time of suffering. There is Absolutely, no question at all that for hundreds of years. The concept was that your loved ones were going into a place where they experience the passage of time and That the duration of time that you're gonna be in purgatory is all dependent Upon what temporal punishments you bring with you into the fires of purgatory now, you're gonna get to heaven eventually.

But you might be in time in purgatory for literally hundreds of years. Suffering and agony exactly like those of the damned. Except this is to purge you and prepare you for entrance into the presence of God.

It is found over and over and over again. They keep talking about time. Now again, I want to ask our modern Roman Catholic apologists who just poop with this idea. Oh, you just don't understand. Are you a saint?

Have you been canonized by the church? So what about all these Saints. Were they just they just ignorant of the basic things that you are not ignorant of. Or is this new revelation? What what is this?

I'd like to know so. There's all these discussions like chapter 22 on the duration of Purgatory now check check this out. I found this interesting. And again, this is really weird because here I've got the print copy in my hand.

But I know exactly where I was on the road when this was playing it's so weird the way I study. I was on the Carefree Highway climbing the the hill East of I -17 and this is exactly where this was. This is on my headset anyway.

Faith does not teach us the precise duration of the pains of purgatory. We know in general that they are measured by divine justice and that for each one They are proportioned to the number and gravity of the faults, which he has not yet expiated.

God may however without prejudice to his justice abridge these sufferings by augmenting their intensity. The church militant also may obtain their remission by the Holy Sacrifice the mass and other suffrages offered for the departed.

According the common opinion of the doctors the expiratory pains are of long duration. There is no doubt says Bellarmine. I like how this Bellarmine's always been quoted here that the pains of purgatory are not limited to 10 and 20 years and that they last in some cases entire centuries.

But allowing it to be true that their duration did not exceed 10 or 20 years. Can we account it as nothing to have to endure for 10 or 20 years the most excruciating sufferings without the least alleviation if a man was assured that he should suffer some violent pain in his feet or his head or Teeth in the space of 20 years and that without ever sleeping or taking the least repose.

Would he not a thousand times rather die than live in such a state? And if the choice were given to him between a life thus miserable and the loss of all his temporal goods. Would he hesitate to make the sacrifice of his fortune to be delivered from such a torment?

Shall we then find any pot any difficulty in embracing labor and penance to free ourselves from the sufferings of purgatory? Shall we fear to practice the most painful exercises vigils fast almsgivings long prayers and especially contrition.

Accompanied with sighs and tears. I stopped here instead of say that earlier. Was there something you wanted to throw in there because you've got the microphone in the position of speech well.

I'm suddenly and I do this off the top of my head. Am I remembering some reference to Tetzel when he was selling indulgences? Wasn't there an amount you could give to take a certain period of time off of your dead relatives time in purgatory?

Well, yeah. Well, in fact, they're they're plenary indulgences, so they would be immediately be removed from the from purgatory. Yes.

And I thought what I'm thinking I remembering here correct me if I'm wrong. Was that you could knock a thousand years off your dead relatives time in purgatory?

Well Thousand years is a little excessive that but you're what you're remembering. Is that if you add it up all of the time that you could get in indulgences by say Visiting the the relics in Wittenberg it would add up to just this huge amount of time.

That's probably what you're remembering. There's there's difference between partial and plenary indulgences and Remission of time and stuff like that. So yeah, there is different ways of doing it. But what I was gonna say was I'm gonna before I continue on with this this particular reading before this there was a discussion and it reoccurs many many times of People who went to purgatory briefly and then came back.

And They would see souls that were in fire that would they would then leap out of the fire into ice and snow and Then they'd be there as long as they could stand that and then they'd leap back into the fire and then they'd leap back and forth between the two and that the the Saints upon seeing visions of that kind of suffering.

Would you obviously couldn't throw yourself in the fire and last very long but would would immerse themselves in frozen rivers. One even said one story was this one this one Saint would actually stay in frozen rivers for weeks at a time.

Yeah, right but anyway, that's the story and you know, like I said, it's just a story but To prepare themselves in this life for what was coming the next anyways. These words comprise the whole doctrine the Saints and theologians father Mumford of the company of Jesus in his treatise on charity towards departed bases the long duration of purgatory on a calculation of probability.

Which we shall give in substance. He goes out on the principle that according to the words the Holy Ghost the just man falls seven times a day. That is to say that even those who apply themselves most perfectly to the service of God notwithstanding their goodwill Commit a great number of faults in the infinitely pure eyes of God.

We have but to enter into our own conscience and there analyze before God our thoughts our words our works to be convinced this sad Effect of human misery. Oh how easy it is to lack respect and prayer to prefer our ease to the accomplishment of duty.

To sin by vanity by impatience by sensuality by uncharitable thoughts and words by want of conformity the will of God. The day is long. It is very difficult for even a virtuous person to commit I do not say seven but twenty or thirty of this kind of faults and imperfections.

Let us take a moderate estimate and suppose that you commit about ten faults a day at the end of 365 days. You will have a sum of three thousand six hundred and fifty faults. Let us diminish and to facilitate the calculation place it at three thousand per year at the end of ten years.

This will amount to 30 ,000 at the end of 20 years to 60 ,000. Suppose that of these 60 ,000 faults you have expiated one half by penance and good works. There will still remain 30 ,000 to be atoned for.

Let us continue our hypothesis. You die after these 20 years of virtuous life and appear before God with a debt of 30 ,000 faults. Which you must discharge in purgatory. How much time will you need to accomplish this expiation?

Suppose on average each fault requires one hour of purgatory. This measure is very moderate if we judge by the revelations of the Saints. But at any rate this will give you a purgatory of 30 ,000 hours.

Now, do you know how many years these 30 ,000 hours represent three years three months and 15 days? Thus a good Christian who watches over himself who applies himself to penance and good works. Finds himself liable to three years three months and 15 days of purgatory.

The preceding calculation is based on an estimate which is lenient in the extreme now if you extend the duration of the pain and Instead of an hour you take a day for the expiation of a fault if instead of having nothing.

But venial sins you bring before God a debt resulting from mortal sins more or less numerous. Which you formally committed if you assign on the average of st Francis of Rome says seven years the expiation of one mortal sin.

Remitted is to the guilt who does not see that we arrive in an appalling duration that the expiation may easily be prolonged for many years and even for centuries. Years and centuries of torments. Oh if we only thought of it with what care should we not avoid the least faults.

With what fervor should we not practice penance to? Make satisfaction in this world pages 91 and 92 folks. Do you hear that? The thing that kept striking me in two hours. I could only listen to it for about two hours.

I just had to turn it off after that. I mean when you when you when it's a relief to go listen to Sahih al-Bukhari. You can tell just how Bad that stuff is. What you do not ever hear you never hear anything About the all-sufficient merits of Christ.

This system knows nothing of it. It's all what you do you do you do you do you did this and you do that and you suffer this and you suffer? That and merit for this and merit for that and blah blah blah blah blah blah.

So far reform removed from the from the Christian faith that it's it's really hard to even Imagine it really really is well one more thing from this and we'll get to our calls. Which are on the same subjects interestingly?

Some of you will remember I listened this morning on a 41 mile ride To my debate with Peter Stravinskis on on purgatory. That's still one of the classics. There's no two ways about it and I was listening to the cross-examination period where I Asked Peter Stravinskis and you could just tell by this by the Tepid nature and the slowness of his response.

He did not want to go here at all. But I asked him about what's called the Sabatine privilege appendix to in this book by Shoup. It's called the brown scapular promises the scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.

Two wonderful promises of Our Lady are available to those who have been enrolled in the brown scapular. Enrollment is a simple process one should ask a priest to make this enrollment. I'm sorry procedure the great promise of the Blessed Virgin Mary given to st. Simon stock on July 16th 1251 is as follows.

Whoever dies wearing the scapular shall not suffer eternal fire. Now now think about that for just a moment. Wearing a piece of clothing and what it represents in your promises blah blah if you die wearing this scapular.

You shall not suffer eternal fire again as far removed from from Christian theology and apostolic practice and belief as you could possibly be. Our Lady's second scapular promise known as the Sabatine privilege the word Sabatine meaning Saturday Was given by the Blessed Virgin Mary to Pope John the 22nd in the year 1322 and is as follows.

Quote. I the mother of grace Shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever. I shall find in purgatory. I shall free end. Quote. There are three conditions for obtaining this privilege one wearing of the scapular to the practice of chastity according to one's state of life and number three the daily recitation of the little office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Those who cannot read can abstain from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays instead of reciting the little office. Also any priest who has diocesan faculties this includes most priests has the additional faculty to commute change the third requirement of another pious work for example the daily rosary.

Because the greatness of the Sabatine privilege the Carmelite order suggests the third requirement not be commuted into anything less Than the daily recitation of seven our fathers seven Hail Mary's and seven glory be to the fathers.

Now the question that I asked of Peter Stravinsky's was How can you say there's no time in purgatory. When Mary descends into purgatory on Saturday. Yeah, she doesn't descend on Friday or on Tuesday. She only descends on Saturday.

That means there's a calendar on the wall someplace. That's just all there is to it. There just isn't any question That the people of that day believed that there was time in purgatory or the entire Sabatine privilege which hundreds of thousands of faithful Roman Catholics Including Popes Cardinals priests nuns have lived and died by All thinking that Mary had promised to descend into purgatory on the Saturday after their death.

Which I guess would mean you'd want to die on a Friday. What's that yeah late Friday, yeah about 11 11 55 would be good. Because you don't want to miss Saturday. Yeah, then you got a whole week coming up but Lived and died believing that Mary was going to descend in purgatory on Saturday and free them from because they're wearing a brown scapular and they recited certain words every single day and This is this is again.

It's what was believed. Is it believed by many Roman Catholics today? No, not really. But it was it was believed now, I hope I don't have to say to anybody Mary never told anybody any such thing. There is no such place as purgatory.

This is all a gross violation of scriptural teaching concerning the gospel. The Apostles never said a word about such things. As we will demonstrate the couple of little texts that are used Matthew 12 or screenings 3 each and every one of them.

There is there's real problems with Rome's abuse of these texts and we will of course get into that in the the debate on Friday night, but It is it is interesting. I'm seeing all sorts of Mike has gone crazy looking up every website on scapulars.

Free brown scapular calm. There you go. Thank you very much Haseem son of Ramallah Who evidently is home today sick, and so we hope he feels better, but thank you very much for that picture of Mary With her blue robe and the light shining behind her and she's offering brown scapulars to people.

That's that's great. Thank you For that that's that's a real blessing. All right, it's it's seven seven seven five three three three four one's the phone number dividing dot line on Skype is the phone number as well.

And are we in a position to just go ahead and take our break and then go back to the go back to our phones? We'll start taking the phone calls. After a quick break and you can join us eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll be right back.

Roman Catholic-Evangelical Cooperation and James White's Books

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils. They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many Evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?

James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatorian indulgences and Marian doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain in regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen Org. The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us.

James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters. It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit.

The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity. Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike.

Highly recommended. You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org. What is dr.

Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org.

Eucharist, Transubstantiation, and Early Church Development

And welcome back to the violin. Let's go to our phone calls and talk with Ron. Hi Ron.

Hey, how are you doing? I got an opportunity to talk to you a couple weeks ago. I just wanted to follow that up. I had asked a question about One of the Roman Catholics that I'm discussing the Eucharist with always comes back and says Show me an early church writing where one of the fathers said a physical presence was wrong teaching.

And then you mentioned well, that's because it didn't exist. And I came back with well, you know, you're asking a question. Sort of like asking me a question show me Where one of the early church fathers said nuclear energy wouldn't be something that should be used.

I said it didn't exist and Then you know, I started reading a little bit about William Webster and he claims that you know. It was one of three views that existed. So my thought process was yes. People may have believed in a physical presence.

But they didn't believe in the transubstantiation like they do now because they didn't worship the Eucharist. Or what is the earliest? Where is the earliest in the early Christian church that we can see that they actually Worshipped the year of Eucharist like they do right now at the Catholic Church.

Well, the term itself doesn't appear until about a thousand years after the birth of Christ and then as far as reservation of hosts and worship of hosts the The articles that were used to reserve hosts and to carry hosts for example in processions and things like that Again began to be created the same time as the doctrine itself developed which is the same time as Aristotelian philosophy was coming into into the West and into the beginnings of the foundings of Universities and things like that at the end of what we call the medieval or the Dark Ages under pressure from the Turks coming coming from the the East so that's when the first Ciborium and and pics and monstrance and tabernacles and things like that began to be built once you had this concept that That the body of Jesus as a divine being was was present then you naturally would seek to Show reverence to that etc.

Etc. And so that's that again comes in a much later period of time the early church Did not reserve these things they would take The Lord's Supper to the sick or to the imprisoned. But then again, that's hardly unusual.

We all would do things like that. Because those people can't come to the fellowship then bringing the fellowship of the church to them but again, it's it's all just a matter of. Even even meaningful Roman Catholic scholarship recognizes that this was something that developed over time and the Roman Catholic apologist reads church history anachronistically rather than reading it in in an meaningful order and Bearing the burden of saying well, this is a belief that was there and here's the evidence.

It was there what they do is they take modern beliefs. They read them back and say will prove me wrong and that can be used to prove anything whatsoever. It's not a it's it's not for people of truth. It's it's for people of dogma and That's that's the problem and and until a person Recognizes that and and sometimes they're just not willing to recognize that there's really not much you can do for them.

You can you can point it out to them you can say, you know that the Mormons can go back and assume that the early early believers were like them and Then find their quote here their quote there. They can assume that the early writers believe that men became gods and you know, here's a quote here and here's a quote there.

You wouldn't accept any of that. But the only reason is because your ultimate authority says not to accept it. It's it's not a matter of what the early church writers actually said.

When you've discussed this with a Roman Catholics before in your debates, have you ever brought up, you know. Because they claim this is from the early church. They've always believed In the Eucharist and the real prayer in the physical presence of Jesus in it.

Have you ever brought up that the Pope? Gelatius I believe Actually said that the bread and wine doesn't cease being bread and wine and how that wouldn't be a contradiction based on supposedly infallibility of their Popes and.

Of course, I debated Robertson Jenison that subject in 1999 and I quoted I quoted the the Galatian statement and Again, Rome has has a way around anything any Pope that said something wrong just wasn't speaking as a Pope.

That's that's the easiest way around anything. The whole concept of the infallibility of the papacy is an utterly irrelevant paper tiger. Because you can demonstrate that Honorius and and Galatius and others said things directly contradictory to modern Roman teaching doesn't matter.

Because all you have to do is just simply say well, you know, he just wasn't speaking as a Pope at that time. So, how do you know when he is? Well, they can't answer questions like that because it's a circular system.

It's just believe believe what we say because we tell you to believe it. That's that's just all there is to it and It that that's fundamentally how the the system the system works. But yeah, of course, I raised that citation and numerous others and if you cite anyone from the early church that contradicts their position and I would look at the citations that you know, Bill Webster provides that I provided in in the debate with Robertson Jenison 1999 it's available on the website.

All they do is what Jerry Mattox did when I provided numerous patristic citations contradictory to Roman claims about the papacy. Oh, they're just those are just they're speaking as private theologians there.

Go to early Christian writings. Calm, which is a Roman Catholic site. It does have some of the early church fathers letters, but I did notice some of the ones that disagreed with them. I couldn't find them on the site.

So I don't know if they pick and choose.

Post or what have you? Well, it's certainly the most commonly used source by Roman Catholic apologists is The Jurgens set and Jurgens is extremely selective in what is cited and it is it is the reading of those materials in their broad context that Demonstrates the the fallacious nature of Rome's claims not not reading, you know Little books like that and I understand Jimmy Akin's coming out with a a book again of selected citations.

That's that's easy to do but the fact is since we can go toe-to-toe with any Roman Catholic on the early church fathers, what does that tell you and Fundamentally from their perspective that doesn't matter either because it's sola ecclesia all the way down.

So when when you ask well Why should I accept what an early church father said? When he says something Roman Catholic would say and not when he said something a Protestant would say it's because the church gets to decide and so, you know, it's it's a it's a circular argument and there's there's no way out of it and Unless you can stay outside and point out this this the spinning that the person's doing you're not going to get anywhere.

But I'm I was thinking I saw a quote a couple weeks ago, and I wish I could I wish I had saved it. But it was CS Lewis explaining why he didn't become a Roman Catholic. He said it's not so much Disagreement with the doctrines you already hold but the fact that given your system I would have to believe any doctrine that you might proclaim in the future and that's the point.