Is the SBC on Life Support? with Federalist Author Matthew Garnett

Introduction to the Conversation and Matthew Garnett’s Background

All right, welcome to conversations that matter podcast. My name is john harris and i'm pleased to have with me today. Matthew garnett. Matthew, thank you for joining me for this discussion. Sure. Um You are the individual and I I knew this was you and this was happening.

But you write for the federalist and you put out an article after resolution 9 that kind of went viral. And you you analyzed it. I thought you did a fantastic job but I want to analyze some things that happened this week in the convention and Before we get started on that though.

Tell us just a little bit about yourself. Uh, I know you write for the federalist. But what else do you do? Where can people find you? Yeah, um, you can uh find our work at layman's terms radio .org. That's um That's my podcast in layman's terms and we've been following this story really since the mlk 50 and together for the gospel uh Conference, you know where this is this all kind of started snowballing and just just found it astonishing because my background is uh, both I have a I have a foot in the evangelical world where I really was, you know, Uh brought into the church through the southern baptist, which i'm grateful for I was baptized there and then uh got into ministry Uh really in that that realm of evangelicalism and then Really fell away from the faith and went into more of the liberal mainstream Iterations of the church in america where I learned all about uh, you know, Postmodern critical theory liberation theology and then this mlk 50 thing hit and especially the together for the gospel conference.

Not not this past year, but the year before uh where this was really a hot topic and I came across this and I was like It just it just struck me and I said something really Nefarious is going on here.

So I started started following it started writing articles about it in the federalist and i'm just uh, really uh astonished at uh, the involvement the uh, the attempt to incorporate some of these ideas that that I learned at claremont that I know are uh, Putting the best uh Construction I can on it disingenuous.

They they really are they're they're not uh Means by which to help anybody but to further a political agenda. So really so really my background is what brought me into this this whole conversation. I'm not i'm a lutheran now I'm a i'm an orthodox conservative liturgical lutheran and the lcms I don't have it.

I don't have a dog in this fight or anything else, but it was uh, really amazing to see southern baptists, especially Uh reformed southern baptists start to go this route. So I started to investigate and that's that's really where we are today.

Well, that's one of the reasons I wanted to get your take on this because you are coming at this as someone Who writes for the federalist so you're coming at it from a political direction, but someone who understands neo-orthodox theology and post-modernism and some of these things that um are driving the social justice movement and so um, I I always think it's great, uh to get well not always but It's usually great to get an outside perspective on something so, uh now now the people who uh support me and my work Uh in this regard haven't heard from me in a few weeks.

And uh, so we're gonna have a little fun for just a minute. Um, I was on vacation. I I was actually doing um a combination of things I was on a few different trips. But one of the things last week was my wife and I went to california and I don't know if you knew this I'm actually from california.

I'm from los angeles, uh originally. Uh, though I grew up in upstate new york and now i'm uh on an undisclosed location in a bunker in the american south impending doom, uh anyway, um, I uh, I just wanted to share so so uh for those who support me, um, this is uh, These are the nice pictures i'm gonna blow this up so people can see a little better.

Uh, we went to uh, The chasta area that's the chasta dam in the bottom left and then uh top left is the hike we did In lassen national park, uh to the peak and then um, that's bernie falls on the right all northern california all beautiful.

And I don't know matthew. Have you been to california? I have I used to live there actually. Yep. Right. Well, that was uh, so l you know la orange county area. That's you know. That's where claremont school of theology is that's right.

That's right. And so we we were there for about three years and and I got to study theology on the uh, on the hairy left edge of methodisms. Yeah, right on so so, you know california is an absolutely beautiful state run by absolutely crazy people, right?

That's right. And so so here's here's the thing I was gonna uh share and I don't did you ever go to san francisco? When you were there or we did yeah now this was about a decade ago and san francisco was great then it was beautiful.

Everything was you know in pretty good shape, but it looks like holy cow. What the heck is that? Yeah, so so this is the rental car that we had and uh, oh no, we parked uh around it was near chinatown.

But we were parked next to a bank. It seemed like you know, a fairly secure area and um, yeah, so, um, we we're not used to this, uh being where we're from, uh now and and where uh California's changed i'll put it that way but my wife I I think she kind of put her bag like under the front of the seat, uh, like a carry-on bag and uh, it had her purse in it and um, so someone just smashed the window stole the purse and uh, and that was our first day of uh vacation and uh, Put a little bit of a damper on things but I was gonna say this you know, I was explaining to her a little bit, um, because I I had heard some things about san francisco and Kind of what's going on there lately with the homeless problem and everything else and um.

Since I had been through there before but since I had had been through there They've raised the minimum wage to it's like 15 bucks an hour now. Right. I mean taxes are out of control the gasoline I was paying I think I don't even i'm trying to remember now.

It was like close to uh, four bucks a gallon I know. Um the uh The radio when we were coming into san francisco There was a story that someone had stolen a quote assault rifle some criminal from a police vehicle and so some politician some local politician was saying We need to have legislation to make sure that police don't have those kinds of weapons so that criminals can't steal them.

That was the common sense that we heard. As we drove in and I was just thinking I don't want to be in this place. But the homelessness is out of control. It's just uh, the nice areas of town people are defecating in the streets and we saw this and uh, so Wow, um, that's that's uh, you know, I said learn we got to learn the lesson.

Well, this is the the rave new world this is uh, what's happening and Uh, we we want to keep the rest of the country from being california if we can right? Yeah, absolutely, right. Yeah, no, yeah, no good grief.

That's unbelievable. I know I know I just uh, but anyway Some beautiful parts of california still if you want to go there Just make sure you have a ton of cash to pay for gas, right? Right, so, um, so so switching gears now, let's get into the the thick of it.

The Founders Ministry Trailer and the SBC Reaction

Um, This is what happened. That's what happened to me. This is what happened this week though. Uh, if you can see that there's a documentary, uh by founders ministry is called by what standard and a trailer was released I think it was tuesday Of this this uh week.

Yeah. Did you see this matthew? I did. Yeah. I did watch the trailer. What did you think? Uh, I thought it was relatively inoffensive just you know a documentary that I think is very needed with with the southern baptist right now to just really come out and and warn folks about what what they're getting themselves into because I I interviewed pastor tom buck for my federalist piece and we both agreed that the overwhelming majority of southern baptists are Really ignorant when it comes to what critical theory is what's behind it what drives it?

Uh and where it eventually leads which is that those pictures you showed me of san francisco um, and and so so I thought it was fairly innocuous, but then All of a sudden i'm in an argument with somebody On twitter by the name of melissa melissa moore.

I think was her name um, and unbeknownst to me, that's beth moore's daughter and Um got into it with a couple folks over what you know. Because I was what I was just asking what's what's offensive about this because I was curious when I saw this come I kind of come across my feet I was like, oh they Is the documentary out because there was all this criticism about it and there and uh, finally I got the information oh, no, no, it was just the trailer and I said the trailer I said do you have a link to the trailer and um.

The the people on this thread wouldn't link. No, i'm we're not linking to the trailer. So I had to go dig up the trailer for myself and watch the trailer and i'm kind of like, okay this just sounds like you know, uh comments people who who have some background in this just Trying to inform other southern baptists about what's going on.

I can't really see What the big brouhaha over a trailer would be? Um, and I and I just saw not no personal attacks. No um calling out of any certain individuals, you know, and and I guess evidently melissa was really frustrated.

Because she felt like it was personally attacking her mom and I you know, I just didn't see that I You know, I didn't see it personally attacking anybody what I what I saw was Uh something that was trying to inform fellow southern baptists about what was what was being uh.

You know kind of put forth and promulgated as as something useful Uh in in the southern baptist convention when in fact it is very very dangerous, right? So so i'm yeah, that's i'm i'm in full support.

I've never seen pastor askew or pastor buck or anybody associated with founders uh, um, uh Slander or besmirch anybody's name uh, they they are not attacking i've never seen them attack people and that's that's really what I the the uh, The the sticky mess I got myself in on twitter a couple days ago was people were saying well Oh, you know founders, you know has always gone.

They're going after you know, beth moore. They're going after this person. They're going after that person. And I just said show me some evidence of that and that's when you know. You get radio silence is when you ask for evidence so, uh, you know, I I watched it and It it seemed to me, uh that there was kind of a distinction between good guys and bad guys.

Like they they put a kind of a dark I don't know some filter on the film or the you know, they edited it to show. Okay, these are the guys that and beth moore was one of them that seemed like okay. She she's maybe not one of the good guys forwarding this bad theology, which is true um, okay, but uh, you know Al moeller, um was was portrayed as a good guy.

I was um, I was thinking that some of the guys that uh, have been criticized for at At best allowing social justice to continue on their seminary campuses or promoting it Uh that they were going to kind of get a pass.

That's what I thought it might might be that I I mean none of us have seen this documentary though. So who knows it's just a trailer. But uh the very fact that it seemed to be negative um about Uh these ideas and attaching these ideas like critical race theory intersectionality um and so forth, uh to Individuals who are actually forwarding these ideas that that I was that was a bridge too far and I don't know if you saw this but uh Here was the reaction from the top.

Well, these are the four seminary presidents in the sbc and it almost looks coordinated. I mean, um, it was kind of like all around the same time. They reacted to this documentary that they were all featured in.

And it's just their words. It's just them being interviewed their words and um, i'm going to read some clips from this al moeller um says that uh some respected sbcs were Sbc leaders were represented in a way that alarmed him and that you know, he wants something that's respectful and honest.

So he's saying this is disrespectful and dishonest is what he's saying. Uh facing keith allen at midwestern. Uh, this is uncharitable and unhelpful. Uh, you know, we need to engage with clarity and charity.

So they they didn't do that at founders. Uh, danny aiken had a full statement. He doesn't want to be included in this film uh, kind of the same thing adam greenway same thing and and all four have this narrative that this is divisive this is unnecessarily dividing southern baptists and uh founders is the to blame for this.

Um, and so what did you I don't know if you saw these but now you do what do you think of that? Argument that's being put out there by these Elites in the southern baptist convention that this is divisive and that's why it needs to be shut down well, um.

Critical Theory, Social Justice, and the SBC’s Double Standard

Yeah, I got I got to admit i'm i've been i'm taken off guard by. Especially dr moeller's tweet um. That that's what has concerned me from the beginning of this whole thing was. You know, where where's dr moeller gonna fall on this and it seemed like With his comments about resolution nine on the briefing following The convention it looked like Okay, they're gonna they're gonna be okay.

Dr. Moeller's gonna hold this together but then I see that tweet and I so I I don't even know I I just don't have the words, uh, because If if a man like dr moeller can't come down on this with with clarity and understand that Something needs to be said about this forthrightly.

Um, yeah, I just I just don't i'm very very concerned and and again. You know, i'm a lutheran but um, but i'm concerned i'm In some ways i'm very concerned about my own denominations in many respects that don't have anything to do with the topic we're discussing now but i'm Very concerned about uh, the roman catholics um.

With their sex scandals, uh, you know, whether whether we want to admit it or not Conservative catholics are our allies, you know. Up until we get up until we start talking about salvation, but when we're talking about um social issues.

Right the health and well-being of our country homosexuals. Are uh roman catholics are our allies? And southern baptists same thing and What what is happening is is the cath the roman catholics are going down over the sex scandal and um the the southern baptists are not only plagued by a sex scandal, but now this and we can't get the uh Iconic conservative leader of the southern baptist, which is dr Al moeller to come down on this and say this is my position right right now here and now.

Um, and I just and it sounds from that tweet. It sounds like he's condemning the founder's video based on a trailer, which is. That just that makes zero sense to me. I Wait for at least wait for the documentary to come out.

Right, but but yeah here he is condemning it in a in a tweet. Can you read that tweet one more time? I mean, it does. Yes folks. Uh, well, this is it was a series of there's like three of them. But the relevant information in the first one.

Yes, folks I have now seen the founder's ministry video trailer and I am alarmed at how some respected sbc leaders are represented. Southern baptists expect and deserve a respectful and honest exchange of ideas.

I'm convinced we are capable of this. Okay. Yeah um, and That's yeah. So I yeah, I just don't I just don't know what to say about about that. Um, you yeah. One of the things that occurred to me is that you know, you've had mlk 50.

You've had revoice and revoice by the way. The guy who organized that was you know, he was an uh, I don't know if he was an adjunct or I think he was An adjunct but he was teaching at southern and he was a graduate of southern nate collins and um.

You know, so so you've had that you've had uh chandler going he was in a media. Um, video saying how those who uh went voted for trump in the sbc. He said negative things about them. Um, I mean I could go on and on about all the the weird social justice stuff that's gone on In the sbc and it seems like al moeller hasn't said much about much of it.

Uh, right violence but then this two-minute trailer that I mean, it's not even the movie. It's just the trailer. It's like boom the wagons are circled. And I think that's the alarming thing. It's it's uh, what they said is alarming, you know, i'm using his word alarming, but What the reaction that the imbalance of the reaction that we're going to react to this stuff this stuff the conservatives.

So strongly, but we're gonna let the left get away with all kinds of crazy things and we're not going to say much about it. Right and and not just you know who critical race theory intersectionality are by nature divisive.

That's what they are. They divide humans into categories and then to claim that founders is being divisive. When you've not said a really hardly anything about these ideologies making inroads. That's weird to me.

It seems like hypocritical. What do you think? Yeah, no, that's I think that's exactly right. I mean it reminds me of how twitter bans people twitter if you Don't and used to and and to use a uh, uh. You know a soviet line if you don't tow the party line on twitter um, you're you're going to be banned, but I mean Right, which if you're in an argument with someone who who's a man who's claiming to be a woman and you're calling them out on That we saw that with lindsey shepherd here this past week.

I'm not sure if anybody's familiar with that one. No, yeah. So anyway, she's she's she's a canadian. Yes. Yes. I did see that. I did see that. Yes yeah, and so and so this man was was Brutalizing her so you had this man.

Um, just You know calling lindsey shepherd who's a woman all these terrible things on twitter and yet She calls him out for being a man. She's the one that gets banned. See and that's that's what I that's that's the thing.

I see going on here is that it's like um. On you know one side of it has all this latitude and on the other side, you know any little missteps so even even if even if Some some of that trailer kind of marked out good guys and bad guys, which I did not perceive I watched the trailer seemed perfectly innocent to me.

Just hey, it's a documentary trailer. Hey, we're gonna put this out folks get ready to watch it and for all hell to excuse me for all you know. For all this stuff to blow up over a a trailer. It's like wait, wait a second, you know, um.

The all these assumptions being made about the motives of pastor askel and and founders ministry putting out this Uh this documentary before they've even seen it assigning all of this, you know again, so we lutherans we we call well, it's um, it's The the protestant ninth commandment, but it's our eighth commandment, you know you you shall not bear false testimony and and martin luther defines that as um, putting the best construction on your Interlocutors argument that is to say you look at your your opponent's argument you say, okay.

What is he really so this whole idea of steel man was invented by martin luther uh to say that we're gonna look at some we're gonna look at the other side's argument and we're Gonna try to say hey, what is the real intention behind their argument and what are they trying to do here?

And none of that was done with this trailer. Uh, it was just a bunch of assumptions. It was a bunch of blame assigning. It's it's you know, and for dr. Moeller to to participate in this is extremely disappointing because I admire him and I and i've always been yeah, i've always liked him and and I I yeah, I just that that was shocking.

I didn't know about that tweet. So Yeah, you're like many of us we feel Either confused disheartened. Uh, I mean I I put out a tweet that I just I can't see how to defend him because it just seems like Have to be on the other side of the social justice debate or at least running cover for them if that's the way you're going to react to this, so um now, uh I wanted to um, talk a little bit about uh, the ninth commandment.

Uh, Of the sbc or not the ninth we just talked about the ninth the 11th commandment call it right right 11th commandment. Yep, uh thou shalt not criticize a southern baptist and there there was um a guy on facebook or twitter rather.

Uh, he's probably on facebook too. Trey mays. Um who has a blog at truthdispatch .com and he wrote this whole thing, um on matthew 23 and uh, he he talks about kind of how the the sbc elites in his mind Are characterized by matthew 23 and i'm not going to read his whole twitter thread.

He has like three reasons for it. But one of the things that stood out to me was this 11th commandment and he says um That i'll just read this for you. He says liberalism has an 11th commandment. Which is the unwritten rule that unbiblically imposes on people within the same religious tribe and effeminate silence to maintain the respectability.

In the chief seats at the conferences denominations and local churches. Uh, and he quotes matthew 23 6 it effectively states thou shalt not criticize. And they love the place of honor peace and the best seats in the senate is that the Verse they love the place of honor banquets chief seats in the synagogues respectful greetings in the marketplace uh and be called rabbi by men and and uh so so trey mays is trying to make this connection and say that that is what was going on in the uh in the elites and their reaction to this.

And I remember when I was at southeastern, um, I remember going through a situation there and I Opened my bible to matthew matthew 23 and I read that passage. And it came to life for me and I thought this is exactly what we're dealing with.

This is the good old boys club. This is um. You know. We we want unity that does not hurt our position. We don't want criticism because it will hurt our position. We want the money coming from the pews and the money coming from leftist organizations.

We want book deals. We don't want the media to run a hit piece on us. Yeah, so. That's kind of the attitude I saw and this was underground mostly this just wasn't talked about and I think this week is so pivotal.

Because it went public. Everyone can see now. You dare to step out of line a little bit and criticize even if it's slight you the hammer will come down on you. So, I don't know if the lutheran church hasn't has an 11th commandment like that, but the sb.

Oh, no, no, no lutherans lutherans. Well, we have kind of the opposite problem. We have more we I have and this is one of my issues that I spend time confessing to to the lord, uh, you know in is is the breaking of the eighth commandment ninth commandment the you know, not not slandering people because we Lutherans fight we we are known for fighting.

Oh just like martin luther. Yeah, right. Yep. Absolutely. So we have different problems, but we still have our problems, um, but uh yeah, again I I that's that is really something that that you put the sbc 11th commandment in that category because um, it's it's a situation where um.

So and maybe this is a stretch. Because what always connects things for me with just popular evangelicalism in general. And especially with the sbc. You know having experienced them to an extent when I was in college.

Um, what is this whole idea of synergism? So in other words, um, we In in order to win people to christ we have to appeal to the culture, right? Um, and so if if the convention is moving in a direction that is popular with the culture all all this, you know, uh, this social justice order movement, you know critical theory, even though no.

Again, I I completely agree with pastor buck that that 99 of people don't have a clue what this is but if it's going to bring if it's going to make us look good in the eyes of the media if it's going to bring people, uh You know into our church if it's gonna have them darken the door of our thresholds then let's do it and plus that um, there's I think I I am convinced there's this collective guilt in the sbc that wants to Wants to atone for its own sin.

They they uh of racism. And you just cannot do that and that that's the thing that gets me in the most trouble. With my friends like kyle. J. Howard when I talk about can is there forgiveness here? And you know and and then that gets placed in the categories.

Oh, well, you just want to forget history. No, we don't want to forget history. We just realize we cannot atone for our own sins. We need the lord. Jesus christ to come down and be born in the from a virgin a poor virgin into this world live live teach die.

Be crucified and rise from the dead in order to atone for sin. We cannot atone for our own sin. Amen, um, and I did and that that's the thing that I feel like is being asked of of of Uh denominations like the southern baptist convention is to atone for their own sin.

And so when any when anything about race comes up and when you have a have a black man Um getting up and presenting a resolution where he is affirming something like critical race theory as an analytical tool.

Then of course the convention is going to vote overwhelmingly for something like that because they're they are trying to redeem their. They're doing two things. They're trying to look attractive to the world.

So they they have converts and that's based on I I am convinced a synergistic um uh Pelagianism and then b they're trying to atone for their own sin and neither one of those things is biblical orthodoxy and you're gonna you're.

They are this is this is bad stuff. I I mean i've seen the svc go through a lot i'm, just i'm just thinking this might be it especially with a guy like al mollard kind of just Hanging out on the sidelines, you know doing what he's doing vacillating back and forth between who knows what here?

So yeah, I tend to I agree. I think you're right. I think that there's this Push that you just described and the founders ministry has kind of said well, wait a minute. We're not on board with that. And we'd like to educate pastors and pew sitters.

About the theological ramifications of this and boom the not no way. No, like don't go there, right? Right that it's done at that point. It's just done if you can't have even a respected person like tom askew who's been respected for years in the svc.

Um step out of line a little bit then I don't see how you take the convention back so right interesting to see what happens now, uh, one final thing I wanted to uh, to go through here, uh. This is kind of uh, can you see that?

Uh, Oh, hold on. There we go at union seminary. Uh tweet social justice is not extra social justice is the gospel and That was yesterday. But today that's kind of been uh, the talk of the town and uh on twitter and um, I I was curious just for my own sake I said, you know what I I'm just wondering how many people actually believe this Social justice is the gospel like they're literally the same thing or included like you're so close that it's you can't Separate the two and so I just you know did a search it only took me like 15 20 minutes on twitter I just searched typed in social justice Is the gospel here's what I came up with and i'm not going to read all of these but we got people from all over the world Interdenominational catholics protestants of various stripes saying pretty much that exact phrase social justice is the gospel and I mean you can even just freeze the screen if you're watching and start reading these tweets from different people.

Some of them laymen some of them more in the leadership, um. Uh here's some of them. Uh Guy on the left, I believe runs a podcast. Um, some of the you know different Levels of influence but all saying that social justice movement.

It's woven into the gospel. Um. That uh, you know those I mean here's one from a guy that's saying that People who don't believe that are on the wrong side of history and judgment. So he they're saying that Some of these people are saying We have a different gospel.

They're admitting it. Um, here's one I'm gonna read this quote social justice is not the totality of the gospel, but the gospel. So he's saying social justice is the gospel without a commitment to neighbor mercy justice and the common good aka social justice Is not a faithful gospel and there's dwight mckissick who's a prominent pastor in the southern maldives convention saying amen amen um, here's another there's a uh I believe she's from australia.

Um a a reverend. I'm not sure what denomination but saying the same thing. She's she's a follower of the gospel of love, which is social justice um, if social justice threatens your gospel you haven't you don't have the gospel and so so i'm just like This is only from like, you know.

Not even I mean that the oldest one probably here is from may uh, but it's just like, you know first second page. Uh, I guess I probably went to the second page of twitter just to pull these things out when I searched that and um, and so I I wanted to sort of i'm i'm working towards the point i'm going to make and I want to get Your reaction but yeah, this is the last thing here.

So this is the the provost at southern baptist theological seminary where al moeller is the president uh matt hall. And uh, this is an article a few years ago he put out but he said, um, i'm gonna here's a quote.

This is after one of the one of the police shootings. He said we desperately need uh churches to see what christ would require of us when we see black boys and men gunned down in ways that bear evidence of a racialized double standard in our communities.

Here's the thing reconciliation is the center of the gospel. And so so what he's saying there i'm just going to interpret real quick because the whole article is just white people. This white people that this is how white people think and.

And he makes this argument for racial reconciliation as he defines it. And he's saying that that's part of the gospel you have to that that is the gospel. But my his version of racial reconciliation, which is part of social justice.

Um, that is the gospel al moeller is on the campus with this guy. I don't remember seeing al moeller. I mean, I I couldn't find anything where al moeller is contradicting this narrative uh saying anything against it he's not um.

These guys apparently aren't divisive in the minds of the elites in the southern baptist convention. It's only the guys like askel who are divisive. And here's the key the key thing. I want to get your reaction to and see if you agree with me.

Social justice movement and our movement which you biblical justice, I guess. Um, some people call it the social justice contras, but these two movements have different gospels. And it's not me who's saying it.

It's everyone. I just quoted. They're all saying that you don't have the gospel unless you have social justice. You have to have that. So if that's an essential element, then you are admitting the other side is saying you don't have the gospel.

We don't. So if that's true, they started a division because this is a new movement in the southern baptist convention and in christianity as a whole. They they started a movement that is dividing people and none of these Elites in the convention spoke up against it that I can tell right.

But immediately when someone says hold on that's divisive. We need to get back to the gospel. And I and that's what I think askel was trying to do. There's a true unity around by what standard the title that the god his word.

It's hammer them. That is so revealing when you look at it through that perspective. What do you think about what i'm telling you right now? No, that's that's you're you're spot on because that's that's how the post-modern slide of hand works.

It introduces things that seem to be um congruent with something and it uh. You know a particular platter upon which post-modern lies can be served is by by twisting scripture. And making it mean basically whatever you want it to mean that I mean at the end of the day.

That's what post-modernism does that's that's what that's what post-structural literary criticism does it says the author has no Say in this thing the only person that has the say and what a text means is what the subject says the text means and so um when you when you apply that to holy scripture and when you elevate one's lived experience and this is post-modern lingo lived experience.

Above reality and you overlay that on something like holy scripture and then you deliver it on a on that platter you make it sound Good to a denomination that is that is guilt-ridden. By their past racism who's trying to redeem itself while all looking good to the public.

That's precisely what's happening here. And that's what's happening to the spc. And and I I don't know where moeller stands on this. I mean, he's a smart man. Uh, but but uh,. But what what's what's he going to do?

Is he is he going to come out again? So so the so this notion of who's who is actually being divisive here is it precisely the issue. Because when you introduce this sort of thing and um, and then somebody pushes back against it.

And then they're they're labeled as the bad guys. That is the post-modern move. Because what you know what askel and and founders and men like tom buck. You me what we're being labeled as is is racists, right?

You know, you are essentially Telling us that we're breaking the the fifth command the sixth command we're murderers. Because we hate our brother in his heart just because of his skin color. That's what we are because we stand against this sort of thing.

And so, uh by by. It's uh, they've played this thing beautifully, and I don't think um, I I think. Um, I don't know. I think you guys are sunk. You have you have some uh, like room in the lutheran church for.

No. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, absolutely. But um, but you have to believe in the efficaciousness of the of the sacraments. That's that's the only problem. Well, but that that's the thing. That's the thing that ultimately attracted attracted me to lutheran faith was the sacraments, but that we can talk.

Yeah. Yeah, so we would have theological differences and and that might but the thing is, you know. The this is so fundamental and we both can see it. We're both in different denominations and we can see that this would destroy any version of christianity out there.

Forget about christianity christian dumb. I mean i'm including catholics and eastern orthodox and it just destroys any of it yeah, that is. That's see that's the thing that people that i'm convinced people don't get or they want to ignore what I don't know what it is.