February 10, 2016 Show with Brandon F. Smith on “The Gospel Heritage of Georgia Baptists” and Ed Wallen on “Leaving Darkland: How God’s Instruction Manual Gives Effective Prescriptions for Life’s Most Difficult Problems”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

So one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now, here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 10th

day of February 2016.

And I'm delighted to have for the very first time on iron sharpens iron Two guests

that I'm eager to introduce to my audience.

During the first hour we're going to be interviewing Brandon F Smith on his new book

the gospel heritage of Georgia Baptists and.

That may not seem like any kind of an extraordinary Title or theme

but there is a lot more controversy To that theme than you may realize.

Second hour we are going to be interviewing Ed Wallen on his new book leaving

dark land.

How God's instruction manual gives effective prescriptions for life's most difficult problems.

That will be our second hour.

But first of all, it is my honor and privilege to welcome for the very first time to iron sharpens iron Brandon F

Smith.

Well, thank you Chris.

I'm glad to be here.

It's an honor me to be on the show with you and I look forward to this hour together and Just thank you

for the work that you do with iron sharpens iron.

Well, I really appreciate it.

It's always a Joy to me that I cannot even describe in words when I hear from

pastors from not only all over the United States, but all over the world who have

emailed me or called me to let me know that the program is a blessing to them.

And not only pastors, but Christians in all areas of life and even occasionally a non

-christian even a Muslim.

On occasion but even on occasion I've heard from Muslims who may

disagree with me radically in my position, but Who are thankful that I handled a

topic fairly?

But anyway before we even get into the theme at hand The gospel history of Georgia

Baptists tell us something about the church where you are pastor.

Pastor Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia, we're about 35 miles south of Atlanta,

Georgia.

The church is about 15 years old.

We're a church

very thankful for the congregation here.

They've been great

one of my best friends.

But the Lord saw us through that trial and was very gracious to sister together.

And so here 13 years or so.

And why don't you tell our listeners something about.

I mean obviously there's a very strong likelihood that the majority of my listeners

Know what a reformed Baptist is but that there are some That may not be

familiar with that.

There may be some who are new listeners Who are not themselves theologically reformed.

They are hearing this term for the first time.

Please explain what exactly that means.

Well, basically Chris reformed Baptist a

lot of our Baptists formed in

their sense of doctrine and salvation.

Salvation

Christ by his perfect obedience On this earth.

They've God's

people.

We believe That and also

it of the covenant

that we've dealt

with his people by way of covenant.

He is always covenanted

some of the basics.

The term Calvinist is that's a buzzword that can be very.

But it's not really meant to be an ugly term.

It's not a term that was supposed to get angry about or upset about.

It's just a historic term to kind of give an understanding of these doctrines,

right?

I just want to read a Commendation for this book that was written by a

guest on iron sharpens iron.

He's probably been a guest close to five times perhaps more but dr Tom Nettles.

Who was until recently on the faculty at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville,

Kentucky before his retirement and before that?

He was at the Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in dear fear old Deerfield,

Illinois and Has developed a friendship with me.

Thanks be to God over the years and as a brilliant historian Author of

by his grace and for his glory amongst many other things.

And Tom Nettles has said about The gospel heritage of Georgia Baptist

this present volume highlights the early days of theological witness among Baptists in Georgia.

Truly noble were these men Marshall Marshall and Mercer who grasped

the importance of embracing and proclaiming all the truths of God's Revelation to men.

Kurt Smith and Brandon Smith have given a clear and vigorous discussion of the early Baptist witness to

the gospel in Georgia.

That sinners are reconciled to God are moved from their condition of condemnation by the mercy

and grace of God apart from any meritorious attainment on

the part of man yea in spite of the massive accumulations of

demerit should sound like good news in the ear of any that

truly feels the justice of justice of God's wrath and Anger against them.

These humble heroes of truth among Georgia Baptists were concerned that the trust that sinners had was

fully directed toward Christ alone with an undiluted sense of their

dependence on the divine initiative continuance and

Reconciliation in their salvation.

I apologize to everybody for stumbling through that for a little bit, but I'm realizing I need prescription glasses very.

But.

Tom Nettles has obviously written some powerful words about your book and about the

truths that your book documents.

Well, why did you find the need to write this book to begin with and what

developed an interest in you?

To write this book.

You know, I grew up Southern Baptist

Background and I'm thankful to my family for I have

that background a

Southern Baptist background, which was one one piece of that.

But I also went back to pre

-major and work.

I took a class that I was supposed to write a what's

called a primary source going back to those sources which

Directly

secondary sources people writing about the period well,

I said well Could I go do

a salvation doctrines of early

Georgia Baptists?

And he said well, yeah, you can do that.

He said but you need to narrow it down and ended up doing this paper.

It's only about a 10 or 12

year good Baptist historian and I want you to just read this paper.

It's a primary source.

He got

back to me.

So Brandon

you continue

to do this.

He said, you know, I've written several Biographical

maybe we can do some combination work

and I said I

ended up

doing anything to

do research

and other Baptists or

probably should Have me that in our own state here in Georgia as well as

among region -wide grace.

But quite a bit of that

controversy dealt with what were the

formed early Georgia

Baptists talk

to dr Nettle really think

system in Georgia.

Here's

what here

together.

I thought wow.

We we make not only did he give us a

common introduction for the book.

So that's kind of how it started.

Yes, and the co -author of the book as you were mentioning his name earlier is Kurt Smith.

But you two are Smith brothers of another mother.

About 2000 about 15 16 years now and But

we share the same last name.

The interesting thing for Kurt though, one of the biographical sketches he wrote was on Daniel Marshall

Daniel Marshall Ken

To Daniel Marshall through this process.

I've learned a lot of things about Georgia Baptist history.

But I've learned a lot of things about my friends.

Yes, people may think that I was reading a typo before when I said Marshall Marshall and Mercer.

But Abraham Marshall and Dan and Daniel Marshall two of the individuals that were mentioned in that

commendation.

That's correct, that's correct.

Daniel Marshall was the pastor who founded the first continuing Baptist Church

of Georgia.

I'm

Abraham.

Marshall followed him as the pastor of that church.

Well, if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own Our email address is Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN is Ian at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the United

States.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com see HR is a RN Z and at

gmail .com and You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Perhaps you're Going to be revealing something that you believe that is at odds with your church or

or some reason that you may feel the need To remain anonymous you may do so.

One of the reasons I think that things like what you have written are important is that

People view truths that you and I and all who wear the label

theologically reformed sovereign grace Calvinist, whatever the label that you

choose to use We have been viewed as holding on to beliefs

that Are ranging from either cultic or out of step with

historic Christianity or Some kind of weird

extreme view that has always been a minority

or that has always been held to by a minority of professing Christians

and so on but this is not the case the history of the Christian Church is Rich with those that

believed in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace and especially you will hear these

slanderous remarks about what we believe from the lips of Baptists and it's

just a sad Testimony to the fact that many Baptists just do not know their

own history.

Am I right?

Yeah, Chris, you're exactly right.

I mean when I came to the doctrines of great salvation

The mind Joey

hugged about

the doctrine

of grace and

one other

past what I believed and what I understood enough

to speak about it.

The two years what I began to see is they didn't know what to do

with they knew about it was negative.

It was

exactly

right Georgia Baptist

from the late 1700s.

But wait,

right and going back to Augustine

in the fourth century really does

not only early

Georgia

Baptist.

But this is really early Southern Baptist life as well.

And it says a lot about Baptist

these early but only

it

wasn't as

though they the

ones that didn't

Generally

did their

doctrine what would be called

to the same?

Yes, and I think don't you? agree that one of the reasons that

these precious truths must be reclaimed and must be

Set forth as the beliefs of many of the heroes of the Christian faith is

Because number one the great men of God from the past are being slandered when

they when they are being described as Rejecting these truths that we called the doctrines of grace,

but even more but even more importantly The level at which

the enemies of sovereign grace Place man

Man and his abilities man and his innate Goodness according to

their own system is really at odds with the scripture and at odds with the gospel.

The doctrines of sovereign grace as you and I would affirm really

put the the spotlight on How wicked man is and how?

Incapable he is of even turning to Christ in a saving way apart from the

Saving power of the Holy Spirit Doing a work within him initially and the

awesome sovereignty and righteousness and power of

God who truly deserves 100 of the

credit the praise the honor and glory for our salvation not 99 .9 nine nine nine nine nine percent,

but one hundred percent.

That's right.

Don't you think that that contrast needs to be?

Really echoed over and over and over again today.

Well, certainly.

Because we have a

culture that

there's not a real biblical I'm what it is and

what it

has these doctrines are important.

If we can get people to understand what the scripture teaches about sin.

And they really will believe it.

Talk about the doctrine of election won't be so.

It'll be difficult.

But it will.

Not one of us is good.

Not one of them not one of us is righteous.

Not one of us can seek God or understand God.

That type of scriptural language when you really dive into that and see it

you will want dead in your sin.

What does dead you

get.

People understand that kind of language in the conversations about

it becomes a little easier not?

Doesn't solve it totally but it becomes who man is and what he has

done.

Yes God and only God.

Yes, and I'm sure that most of those who oppose

what we believe And what Baptists have in the majority historically

believed and What theologically reformed and Calvinist and sovereign grace

believers have always claimed?

I'm sure if we were to pose the question to the enemies of those teachings

Do you believe that God alone's a God alone saves sinners.

Yes, I do believe that.

And do you believe that sinners cannot help save themselves?

Yes, I believe that I'm sure that they would agree with those questions.

They would answer them in the affirmative, but they cannot logic.

They cannot logically and consistently Answer in the affirmative to those questions.

Yeah, no not when you see their other doctrines worked

out well.

They're not logically putting those things together, but you're right you asking those to me

is God sovereign.

Oh, yes, God sovereign.

Is he sovereign over all things.

Oh, yes.

He's sovereign over all things completely sovereign over.

And so that's why doctrines like this and in the in recovering them.

You know there there are

many early Georgia

Baptists like that or

it's like that claim from doctrinal writings that

these men believed In things like this.

I mean here here in 1790

Association it's affirming We believe in the fall of Adam and the imputation of

his sin to his posterity.

He's saying when Adam fell Adam sin all

of those who would function of human nature and the

impotency of man To recover himself by his own free will ability.

Now this is writing that took plan D

by the whole of thing plainly.

They don't believe in the doctrine of free will.

Hmm good.

Five.

In the face of modern Baptist think and really modern

Christian thinking for the most part evangelical thinking.

But modern Baptists You know It's all about free wish and

writing by its

own free eternal election of a definite number of the human

race to grace and glory and that there was a Covenant of grace

between the Father and the Son before the world began in which their salvation is secure and

that they Language that

to most modern -day Baptist or they Baptist if

they don't recognize that is their history.

Especially yeah would have been redundant for the

Freewill Baptists in the 17th century to actually use their the theme or the title.

I should say Freewill Baptists if that was just commonplace or if that was the majority

that that would have been redundant if if all or most Baptists Believed

in the the concept of free will.

That's correct.

I mean we're Baptists out there that we will Baptist someone

would have been maybe semi Pelagian or something of that nature.

But but here

told to these types of doctrines and so you're right.

I mean how crazy would have been.

For them to put free will Baptist which is

the reason why today many not all but many.

Baptists who believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace including your church that you pastor.

Identify ourselves as reformed Baptist because we are today a minority.

Oh.

By all means and many times I have to explain to people in

in the.

Room.

Now you may not be that today.

Claim Something that you are not

and we have to go

to a break

right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

chris Arnzen and gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Brandon Smith and the gospel heritage of Georgia Baptists.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

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You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

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Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled

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That's the private story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris orange in if you just tuned us in.

Our first guest today for the first hour is Brandon F Smith.

And we are discussing his book the gospel heritage of Georgia Baptist.

Coming up at the top of the hour.

We're going to be joined by Ed Wallin the author of Leaving dark land.

How God's instruction manual gives effective prescriptions for life's most difficult problems.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Before I return to our discussion.

We do have an email From Lawrenceville, Georgia, and this is not a question, but

just a comment.

From I believe her name may be pronounced.

No, Amy N o e mi and I apologize if I am butchering the pronunciation of

that name.

No, Amy or no way me.

But she says this is so exciting.

Chris I have heard that pastor Brandon Smith and pastor Kurt Smith are in the process

of writing this book.

I'm from Georgia and even though I don't know pastor Brandon Smith personally I know

that he pastors one of the churches in our GACB Georgia Association of

confessional Baptists Association and our church is a part of it.

I'm at Christ Reformed Church in Lawrenceville and my pastor is Robert.

True love.

I'm sure pastor Brandon Smith will recognize that name.

Well, thank you very much.

Thank you very much, no, Amy for for writing and perhaps you can have a

Question for our guests if you come up with one, we'd love to hear from you.

And.

I'd like to I'd like to also repeat that if you are sending in a question Please give us at

least the city and state Where you reside or the country?

Where you reside if you are sending in a question.

And again, that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and Let's go through.

I mean, we've already been touching on total depravity.

But let's go through your book seems to be broken up and how the Georgia Baptist addressed the

five points of Calvinism for lack of a better nickname.

Right, and let's start with total depravity and because there's a lot of

Misunderstanding about what that even means.

The nature of

man has

been

simple.

He's

no longer in it in the Garden

of Eden could be all the time.

There's a lot of misunderstanding about that people say well

means well, that's true.

They do decent thing, but that does

not necessarily mean That they have done it.

That was the problem.

When Adam sinned is Adam had the ability He did truly have

obey God or to obey God his

inclination to obey God

his desire to obey God.

It was damaged and done away with inclination now

unless God.

Yeah that touches on the most highly disputed

Concept and even phrase free will because when

reformed people or sovereign grace people or Calvinists, however, you want

to label it Refer to themselves as objection

objecting to Free will we are not saying that God

forces men Against their will to either believe or reject in

Christ.

Am I right?

That's correct.

I mean when I talk to People about it or even we

have

desire wanted they desired.

Well, once they disobeyed that ability to walk that walk to walk

it was your will.

We do

what we want to do, but

the problem is what we want, right?

Yes, and in fact, I remember having a discussion with a Roman

Catholic many years ago, and he and I know I've Repeated this story on my program before so I

hope I'm not boring anybody.

But.

Roman Catholic said to me you Calvinists make God into a

Robot factory.

Yeah, you believe that we are just robots.

And I said we'll define robot.

And He said well if you reject that man has the free will to either choose or reject Christ

That means he's a robot.

And I said is your greatest goal in life to go to heaven when you die?

And he goes, yes, it is.

I Said well, are you gonna be able to sin in heaven?

He said of course not.

And I said, well, I guess your highest goal in life is to become a robot.

Then I said, well if you can't if you don't have the free will to sin in heaven That means that you're a

robot according to your definition.

And he said maybe you can sin in heaven.

He had a similar Pentecostal background and And

they ended up saying the exact same thing and he said no, no, no, that's not the direction.

I.

Think I think that's really the problem though.

People don't understand the difference right.

Individuals that have been created by God.

George Baptist put

it all of those who would come is no longer

there.

Yes, in fact.

God himself does not have the freedom to defy his own nature.

He cannot sin.

Right and.

Therefore according to that earlier stated definition God himself would be the eternal robot

in the sky.

I'm assuming.

According to that definition and I'm sorry if that appears to be blasphemous.

But I'm just saying according to the law the logical consistency of that way of defining things

We have before we go on to unconditional election.

We have Robin.

Robin who is in Griffin, Georgia and Robin I don't know if it's a male or

female Robin because I know both men and women go by that name.

But Robin asks.

I thought only Presbyterians were covenantal.

How did mr Brandon come to the conclusion that historical reform Baptists used

to be covenantal.

Very good question because even amongst Calvinistic Baptists there is disagreement on what the

Covenant means and Obviously we would not be

in agreement with our Presbyterian brethren's who believe that Infants by nature of their

birth to Christian parents and baptism as Infants which we would reject

as true baptism.

Anyway, we would say that they are not in the Covenant by virtue of that.

So there are there are differences amongst reformed believers.

So if you could explain.

Well, I think

in the Georgia Baptist and

Everlasting made between the

well, they have covenant before

you God gave

to his people.

There's been different Things that he attributed

to

that and he

made covenant with his people and his covenant was an eternal covenant set between the father.

Or covenantal was

to understand the eternal covenant That was given.

Okay.

What does this mean?

This eternal covenant

promise feeling that

early through

Noah made

with Noah and Abraham

God's eternal covenant being worked out in

showing these true always

Working

with us.

It's made through the worst

two

peoples of

God there's just

one

people of

God

that

work

if God has

a by

baptizing

and of

course

the.

Very frequent retort from pedo -baptists is that.

We.

As Baptists have to admit that there are unregenerate people in our churches who are members.

May even be deacons elders pastors, etc.

But the difference is that we don't knowingly Welcome them into membership.

I mean if the if it's a if it's a good Baptist Church following the precepts of Scripture I mean,

obviously there's all kinds of Baptists.

There are horrible Baptist churches out there.

But but if it's if it's operating according to the precepts of Scripture It's not going to

knowingly welcome into membership a man giving no evidence of genuine conversion.

That's that's the difference.

Whereas the whereas the Presbyterian knowingly realizes he may very well be baptizing

a reprobate he he or a Unregenerate person it's it's because the the

person hasn't reached an age of being able to demonstrate faith and repentance.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

I mean you're

baptizing an infant

does not have makes him alive.

Making him

new and

working out his eternal covenant.

I mean really the all of these doctrines real theology

understanding the

covenant

what he Planned or

what

he

predestined

now they are enabled to believe.

They didn't

have.

They want they want

to be the most mature.

They want to believe

all wrapped up in the covenant.

Noemi writes again with a question.

I Was wondering if the book talks about Jesse Mercer.

Was he a Calvinist?

I went to Mercer University at some point and we.

We are curious or I was curious about that.

Knowing me.

That's a good question.

Kurt Smith has written a wonderful check

solidly held to

the doctrines

of those

doctrines now when we say to

Georgia Baptist.

Georgia

Baptist

they

trained a

lot

like

present

invention

of

solidly

that Association

that I just read from firm that

whole doctrine and Jesse Mercer.

He was a young man at the time, but he was a part of that

1790s but he led that association from his time in the 1790s all the way up

until.

We have Robin again from Griffin, Georgia asking okay,

but what evidence.

Does.

Brandon have that Southern Baptists used to be Covenantal.

Apparently he's conceding that Calvinist is one thing but covenantal is another.

Okay.

Well, you

really have

it from Georgia Baptist belief

1689 London Baptist Confession.

Which is plainly covenantal in its language.

If you were to open the London Baptist 1689 Confession chapter 7 talks about the

cut when you read the writings to the London Baptist

Confession.

That's the type of language that they would use.

Continued

in a bit

they read

their documents and you'll

see it in the book.

You'll see the chapters in the book on the doctrine

of grace.

You'll see the language

Lee ology among early Georgia Baptist.

I think it's there.

Well, we're definitely gonna have to have you back on.

In fact, I would love to have you back on.

With Kurt Smith your co -author.

Great.

But obviously since we've only got five minutes left, perhaps you could hit the two

of the most prominent.

The two the most prominent doctrines within the tulip model of Calvinism.

That are most problematic for the opponents of sovereign grace limited or

definite atonement or particular redemption and perseverance of the Saints

if you could.

Go through why these are applicable to the Georgia Baptists of history.

Well, historically the Georgia

Baptists they

they saw his

election of this

language

of Christ death

their documentation.

It's interesting.

You brought that up.

I was thinking about this a minute ago.

We believe that all those

sanctified and supported

by the Spirit and power of God

One of them be finally lost if God the Father

and God the Son and it must be

and they are not finally lost.

So that really combines it that combines unconditional election and the particular redemption and Perseverance

of the Saints all in the same category.

That's correct.

That's correct.

That's correct.

And and they saw that you'll you'll see it worked out in the book.

One of these doctrines is.

But yet at the same time.

They're woven together to shift believed not one of these doctrines.

All of these five doctrines.

Yeah, and it's I really think that in spite of what?

Non -calvinists say The unconditional election is really at the heart of what upsets

them because they have a totally I think misunderstanding The condition of

men and they think that we are saying God is Not electing

people who would have otherwise believed That they they would have come to faith in Christ.

Right if God had not You know chosen the others to do so

or what have you?

But they fail to realize is that we believe as Roman nines teaches.

Romans 9 teaches that we're all from the same lump of sinful clay and

God just chooses to rescue a Certain portion of humanity out of that lump.

Well, if you could just finalize in about 30 seconds What you'd

like to leave with our listeners today and we will have you back God willing in the near future.

Well, I think dr. Tom metals introduction helps you understand how this book is important not just for Georgia Baptist.

But for early Baptist,

these are

the doctrines or

regions and other countries.

And so this book is a is

a these doctrines have been walk away from them.

Well, I know that your book will be available God willing in the very near future through solid ground Christian books

and their website is March first of March is solid ground books calm

Solid dash ground books calm and your own content contact information for your church and so

on.

Trinity Reformed Baptist Church.

You can our website Trinity RBC org

Trinity RBC Org and find out more information about the church.

Well, thank you so much brother Brandon, and I'm looking forward to having you back.

Well, thank you Chris.

It's been a pleasure and an honor to take part in the show today and Lord's blessings upon you and the rest of the

day.

Thank you, brother and.

Don't go away ladies and gentlemen brothers and sisters because we have our second guest joining us

shortly Ed Wallin and Ed Wallin is going to be discussing his book leaving dark land how

God's instruction manual gives gives Effective prescriptions for life's most

difficult problems.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

If you just tuned us in our guest for the second hour of our program today is Ed Wallin.

He's discussing his brand new book hot off the press.

Compliments of solid ground Christian books, that's solid ground books .com.

Solid ground books .com.

Leaving Darkland.

How God's instruction manual gives effective prescriptions for life's most difficult problems.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron.

Ed Wallin.

Well, if

you could let us know before we even get into the book dark leaving Darkland

let our Listeners know something about yourself and the church where you serve.

Okay,

and.

Well.

What?

Led to the writing of this book.

I understand.

There's some very intensely personal and sad circumstances that led you to

Pick up your pen or sit before your computer and and write this.

This deeply meaningful and moving book.

Yes,

it's

and I

want to

repeat

our

email

address

if

you

would like

to join

us on the air

with

a question of

your

own.

For our guest Ed Wallin.

The email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And once again, please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country

of residence if you live outside of the United States and Obviously you may

feel free to remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable especially if this is involving a personal and

private matter you want to ask about an old friend of mine John Thornberry

who has been a guest on this broadcast writes a powerful commendation for

leaving Darkland.

He says leaving Darkland is a contribution Towards realism in a day when so many

Christian leaders are deceiving people with false expectations for the Christian

experience, but it is also a message of hope for all of us who have Experienced

the failures and tragedies of life and get crushed by them.

It is a biblical Anecdote for the gloom and doubt which Satan brings even

upon the true children children of God.

I do not know of a book which has given such a comprehensive catalog

of the various negative emotions of true believers how they Affect God's people and

how they can be managed and it comes from a man who has walked a Special road of

grief and sadness.

It is my hope and prayer that leaving Darkland will help the suffering afflicted people of God

Who live in the modern world to press on in serving the Lord with the dynamic message

of this book before them?

An excellent and powerful commendation by my dear friend John Thornberry.

And First of all, let's go to the title Darkland.

That's a very captivating title leaving Darkland.

What do you mean by Darkland?

Well, this

is the end leaving

Darkland with the

emphasis this time on

leaving.

How are we leaving these?

States of mind.

Are we permanently able to leave them behind or as this way.

We just rise above them and and have victory over the enslavement to them or

what?

Do you mean by leaving

Darkland?

I think all

the above.

I've been a Darkland oppression, of course.

And.

Now, where were you?

Theologically in your life.

In regard to your convictions as a pastor your stated beliefs and so on when these tragedies

occurred In your life having lost your your daughter and then subsequently your wife.

Where were you then?

Did you have the same belief system in?

Regarding God's sovereignty over all things back then.

Or was that something that developed through the chat tragedy and subsequent to the tragedy?

No.

Oh,

yeah.

Wow, yeah, he was a fiery preacher wasn't he was and.

I've always

been I

grew

into.

Yeah, and we may never know.

Specifically the detailed reasons why God Brings tragedy into our lives

this side of heaven.

I mean we in fact who knows we may never know completely even an eternity.

All as we do know is that God Does work things all things?

Together for the good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

That's the only thing that we're guaranteed to know here on this earth, correct.

Now it

may

be

easier

for

us to

say.

Now that we have already arrived at our side of the theological

aisle regarding God's sovereignty may be easier for us to say How on

earth could anyone find?

Comfort and peace in believing that God orchestrated and foreordained a horrific

tragedy in their lives.

But when I when I think of the alternative

It's just seems to be mind -boggling that someone could possibly find comfort and peace and

Encouragement and believing that the horrific tragedy that they are experiencing

Somehow happened.

With God as a helpless bystander or with God as somebody who had his back

turned or what have you?

It.

It doesn't.

Doesn't seem to make sense to me how anyone could say That it is a horrible thing

that we believe God is in sovereign control over all things including the death of a child.

If you

could respond to that,

oh, yes, I

agree, but I don't think they're doing

it.

A very key word that

you have

repeated.

Throughout this short period of our interview is purpose and

without the sovereignty of God and his foreordination and orchestration of all

things including horrific events nightmarish events that

we experience.

There there are numerous occasions in the other system of

Theology where these things would be purposeless.

I thought I would think that that would just add to the weight of the tragedy and the horror if if it was

completely And totally meaningless that those things occurred.

What what do you mean by your chapter.

The gift nobody wants?

Nobody.

Now

obviously.

There are those who? abuse the truth that suffering

comes from the hand of God and they will say that it is always a

Sign of God's disfavor upon a person that he is punishing them or severely

chastising them at the very least now.

You and I know not only from life But even in the pages of Scripture that that can be

sure the reason why somebody is suffering.

But it's not always the reason is it.

And

we do have a Anonymous listener in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York

who asks.

How has ed?

Been faring since those decades ago since he lost his precious child

and wife.

I'm sure that as a Christian he has come to a level of peace over it.

But is it still something that brings him grief and to some level haunts

him?

Well,

you

never got

play.

Helps me very much.

In my ministry, we

we do

have a

listener from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

CJ who asks.

I have heard some Christian authors and preachers Say that is

completely acceptable to be angry with God when you are going through a

Trial in your life, but is this really true?

Yeah, we can be angry with God, but we should not be.

Absolutely, right.

Now there are obviously there are people that actually will will talk about that like that is some

kind of a Right of sons if you will that that shows our

close relationship with God our his paternal relationship over us

and even our friendship with Christ that we can Vent our anger towards him, but

you don't really see God approving of that kind of attitude anywhere in the pages of the Bible.

Do.

Mm -hmm.

We have a

Christian

from

Cumberland

County,

Pennsylvania.

Who says did you find a lot of your strength in the journey by returning to

the Psalms?

And

we're

gonna

be going

to

a break right

now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

We'll be right back with Ed Wallin and leaving Darkland right after these messages.

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I.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest for the second hour of this program is Ed

Wallin the author of leaving Darkland.

How God's instruction manual gives effective prescriptions for life's most difficult

problems.

If you'd like to join us on the air our Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

One of the areas that is often intrinsically wrapped up in

suffering and pain from a tragedy is the very important

area of forgiveness and there is a lot of disagreement even within

the church on what exactly forgiveness is when forgiveness is to be

Extended and so on even there is difference amongst those who Describe

themselves as Calvinists in this regard.

I was just curious where you fit in that

Difference of opinion amongst brothers.

Amongst brothers for instance, dr. J Adams who I'm sure you're familiar with he believes that

Repentance is only to be given.

I'm sorry that forgiveness is only to be given to those who actually

first ask for forgiveness and They demonstrate repentance

Away from their sin that they've committed against you and Therefore the

forgiveness is a genuine releasing of debt to that person.

Others that that I also admire greatly like dr. John MacArthur would say that we're supposed

to forgive Anyone who sins against us whether we whether they ever ask for

it or not.

Where do you stand on that very controversial issue?

Yeah, because I'm sure that dr. Adams would say that we are to obey the scriptures and

Do good to those who persecute us we are to pray for them.

We and he would just differentiate between that and an actual forgiveness where you're releasing them of a debt

and.

Go

ahead,

I'm sorry.

Yeah, right.

I've heard the.

Analogy, it's like drinking poison and then sitting around waiting for your enemy to die.

Well, all Christians must agree that we are to be willing and waiting and

Very eager to forgive those who come to us and that at least we all can agree on and

that is a very Difficult thing it's I am.

I am astonished when I see amazing acts of forgiveness

sometimes on documentaries and the news where you have and it's typically a Christian

person who is in a courtroom and a Murderer who has just

slaughtered one of their precious children or something.

In fact, I remember in one certain circumstance.

It was a member of the Ku Klux Klan who was on trial for murder and

he was begging the mother of the young man he murdered for forgiveness and this

precious black Christian woman in the courtroom said I have already forgiven you and I

am blown away by that because I definitely have to admit I hold on the grudges for things infinitely less.

Less serious and important in

there.

Well, you have

an example of

mm -hmm.

We have an anonymous.

Listener from Suffolk County Long Island again

who asks.

I Have had a horrible experience with an ex -spouse

That has done what seems to be irreparable damage to my children and

During the course of this horrible trial and experience I Find it

difficult to Insist that my children honor their father

as the Ten Commandments insist or command.

How do I have them appropriately honor? Their father without

Enabling them to give him license to continue in his very evil behavior.

That's a hard question.

Mm -hmm.

Now, what what do you

think in that

case like

that?

What does it mean to honor your father?

I.

Mean, does that mean that you're always to have a.

Overtly.

A.

Caring and approving attitude or I mean, it's it's one of those difficult things where what does that actually mean?

When you're when your father or your mother may be Endangering the the lives

of his children either physically or spiritually.

You know, how do we keep the commandment in those cases?

I don't think.

Tell us some more of the examples in your book on how

Saints have triumphed over tragedy due to the grace and mercy of Christ.

Each

chapter

we get

into

these this category

for me.

And why should I not suffer

all kinds of

scripture.

Romans 828

and we begin to

study the scriptures.

Read our Bibles.

Study constantly.

We're going to find the answer to that problem in most cases.

He's going to give us an indication Why we're in that state.

We've been disobedient.

They

would be

almost impossible about why

are you

treating me?

That's God's purpose.

He let's allows us to think

that we're not by him.

He usually takes us through a lot of failures before he gives us any.

Yeah, and one of the vivid examples in our day

of Someone who recognizes that God's hand was in her tragedy

from beginning to end or even before it happened Johnny Erickson Tata the

the very world -renowned Quadriplegic Who is?

not only a Christian speaker at various conferences

a radio host an author and A painter

who paints holding a brush in her teeth, right? Singer

and so on.

But she Realizes that her diving accident as a teenager and I

believe in the Chesapeake Bay if I'm not mistaken That left her paralyzed

Was something that was really a gift of God because she realizes now and realized it

At some point after the tragedy occurred after she was, you know in in a very bad

mental state.

Of.

Questioning God.

Over this when she finally came to peace with God She recognized that his sovereignty over this

was a gift to her because she would never be speaking to the countless millions

of people about the love and mercy and Grace of Jesus Christ if that not had not

happened to her.

Absolutely. You'd have the same situation Fanny Crosby.

Yeah, and then

you.

Yet you have

Christians today.

Especially those who are in the so -called word of faith movement the

extreme Pentecostal Aberrant wing of Pentecostal ism that would say that

That those people are demonstrating that their faith is not adequate.

That's.

That's not only nonsense.

It's wicked.

I believe.

Yeah.

Well, you have a greater.

Mm -hmm.

Drowning

tried

to drown

himself in

the

Thames

or something.

Yeah.

He after that song that day

Alden

and

you brought up an

interesting figure John Newton because he is a.

Vivid example of how the perpetrator of evil the

one causing great harm and trial and hurt

both physically and emotionally to others how he

could be Rescued out of that Enslavement to sin by the

mercy of Christ and can be used mightily of God.

We very often when we talk about a subject like this we talk about the victims.

Right of this.

Of great horrible tragedy, but in John Newton's case being one who was a slave trader

He was the one perpetrating the evil.

And there may be people who are eventually listening to this this program

either on their Laptops in a jail cell or perhaps but in a recording at some point,

but they may be thinking to themselves After what I have done I am never going to be useful in the kingdom

of God.

I'm never going to be Acceptable by God.

I'm never going to be of any use to anyone and some people like that may be either

be driven to thoughts of suicide or to actually commit suicide or to

remain in a state of Rebellion because they say what's

the use of of Coming to Christ when he will never receive me.

And if you could comment on that kind of a thing.

Yeah, a

lot of

people

might not

even be

aware that

that.

That famous hymn amazing grace was written by a man who was once a very evil

racist slave trader.

Yeah.

That beautiful hymn that even the secular world around us acknowledges in some ways is a beautiful hymn.

By.

The way that

if you could I really want you to before we run out of time.

I want you to really Unburden your heart and mind to leave our

listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before this program is over.

And maybe give some more Insights from your book leaving dark land.

Well the one.

These are the kind of things we have our impatient.

Nobody cares

in the Word of

God and the

person of the Lord Jesus

Christ as

his disciples him.

We have Arnie from Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who says I feel very hopeless?

Ministering to someone I know who is going through a very serious trial.

Because the constant retort to everything I say is you have never been in my shoes.

You've never walked where I've walked you've never experienced what I've experienced.

How can we overcome that objection and be meaningful ministers

to those Who dismiss?

What we say because they say we are inadequate messengers.

Well, that's a good question.

Hmm, right.

Yeah, even even if somebody else lost their daughter in a car accident.

He doesn't necessarily know how you feel because your daughter is not his daughter and the

circumstances Involving those very unique relationships may be very different, but you see how

they respond if they have right and

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know did you ever?

Have a crisis of faith During these trials.

Did you ever come to a position of doubt and Has your belief in the doctrines of

grace and God's sovereignty over all things ever wavered during these experiences?

And.

For those of our listeners who are in a state of grief and mourning.

And people are rebuking them for a prolonged period of grief.

What is the response to that?

I mean obviously if somebody is being crippled and their lives are being destroyed by their grief.

That's one thing but don't.

Christians have to be very careful about putting some kind of time limit on grief.

Absolutely,

and and being

absorbed by

self

-pity.

Well, I know that the publishers website is solid -ground -books .com.

They are the ones who published leaving Darkland and also they are sponsors of iron sharpens iron radio.

Any other contact information you care to give

Ed Wallin at Bell South net is your email address.

That's ed w -a -l -l -e -n at Bell South net.

Well, it has been a real privilege to interview you for the very first time Ed and I do hope to have

you back on the program at some point in the near future and I hope that I did an adequate job on my

end asking questions about some very serious and intimate and sensitive

issues.

Glad to share and I hope everybody who listened was blessed.

I thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in questions.

And I hope you all remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

God bless you, and we look forward to receiving your questions next time on iron sharpens iron radio.