Dragons and Dinosaurs - Were They the Same?

Genesis Apologetics

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Dr. Biddle again is the president of Genesis Apologetics. He holds his

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Ph .D. in Behavioral Science. He's an expert witness in the courts. He's the perfect person to really make the arguments airtight.

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So, Dr. Biddle, it's good to have you again with us. Thank you very much.

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Well, thank you very much. I am happy to be here. This is going to be so much fun today because we're going to talk about creatures like this and creatures like this.

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I'm going to go into those things in just a minute. But first, I want to answer a question that this fine young man here brought me this morning.

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He says, well, what is the connection between dragons and dinosaurs and when did they shift from one being called the other?

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And I thought, boy, that's a great question for a young man to answer. So let's start there and this will really be kind of be the summary of my talk.

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But first, let's go to the Lord in prayer. Father, thank you so much for this wonderful day and for this earnest audience to learn truths from your word and to answer questions about things like this from the framework of your of your word,

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Lord. Pray that your your gospel truth and your Bible truth would go forth powerfully today.

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In Jesus name, Amen. So here is a short story and a true story of earth history for you with respect to creatures that had fangs like this or actually claws like this and fangs like this.

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Let's talk about that. So we know from Scripture that God created it everything the heavens, the earth, the sea and all that is in them in six days.

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And we know how long ago that was because we have the Genesis genealogies in Genesis chapter 5 and 10 summarized again in Matthew and then narrated for us again in Luke chapter 3.

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So we can sum up all those genealogies and we know that earth and everything was created about 6 ,000 years ago.

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We know that mankind was created as a capstone of his creation after he had created everything else.

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And on day 6 or day 5, we have birds and fish and on day 6 we have everything that walked on land including these big creatures like Spinosaurus.

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This is just one claw from a Spinosaurus. And here is a tooth from a

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Spinosaurus. All of these creatures and here is here's a tooth from a Megalodon.

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These things, this is a day 5 creature and all these other creatures that walked on land were day 6 creatures.

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And then God created Adam and said Adam I want you to do two things take dominion over everything that I had just made so we know as a steward everything had just had to have been made immediately before Adam arrived.

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Then the second commission was this I want you to name everything and in doing so he exercised authority and took dominion over the animal kingdom because he was the one issuing names.

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So when I have four kids and when we had those kids my wife and I took authority over the issue that we had just issues because that's a legal term of art when you have a kid that you look at your trust they call them your issue.

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So because we issued that kid we got to name that kid and and that's a that's a very very legal thing.

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So Adam went around and he named everything in the animal kingdoms. There's no animals that were made afterwards all the created kinds had already been spoken into existence at the at the family level and then of course we have a lot of speciation that happened afterwards.

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But he took authority over creatures that had claws like this and teeth like this and the fear of man was not put into animals until Genesis chapter 9 after the flood when they got off and God says now

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I'm gonna put the fear of man into animals before we lived at peace with animals and they were using these massive teeth for eating vegetation.

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So the same the same fangs and claws that can be used for killing animals were used for eating big vegetables and fruits before the fall.

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That's what Genesis chapter once is that God commanded the animals and the people eat only green things after the fall happened.

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We things turned what's called red and tooth and claw on these same mechanisms these same same faculties were then used for tearing and ripping into each other.

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So after that about 1656 years after that if you just follow the Masoretic text we have the flood and we know what the flood is a snapshot of the flood.

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We have fossils where these animals were eating each other and they were frozen in time buried in mud in battle and we have tooth claw tooth marks on bones and we have claw marks on bones.

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We know that the all earth had gone violent at the time of the floods of the floods a snapshot of all these creatures that died.

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But God also says in Genesis that let two of every kind of air -breathing land -dwelling creature that breathes in life through its nose was called to be up upon the ark.

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So they come came on the ark and probably about 80 different kinds of dinosaurs or sorts of dinosaurs at the family level were brought onto the ark.

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So they get onto the ark and even secularists would admit there's only about 1 ,000 dinosaur species, but only about 80 at the family level.

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So they on the ark they endured the flood for about a year and all these different 80 sorts of dinosaurs get off of the ark after the flood and they begin to spread around the earth and multiply.

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But they're big and they have big food requirements and big calorie requirements and earth version number two is a different world than the tropical paradise that they were used to living in before the flood.

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So there's a lot of extinction that happens with these dinosaur varieties. I don't know, maybe 40 or 50 or 60 sorts or families of these dinosaurs probably went extinct pretty quickly after the flood within hundreds or maybe a thousand years or so.

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But some of them lived on and I personally think after the research that I've done

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I think the theropods lasted a long time. Some of the theropods like velociraptors or the

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T -Rex sorts of dinosaurs and the pterosaurs, the flying varieties, some of those types lived on for centuries and centuries and probably died out by the medieval times and those are the creatures that developed the name dragon.

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In almost every culture we have, in every country we definitely have legends and myths of dragons.

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But they called them dragons and when they drew them and painted them and talked about them they described them looking with the same characteristics across multiple countries worldwide.

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That's one of the main things that convinced me to be a creationist. It's because I pressure -tested that topic itself when

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I heard it at a talk by Dave Bisbee about ten years ago. I said if that's true,

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I'm gonna find out. And so I spent thousands of dollars and went around doing all kinds of research in Canada and Montana and bought every book and DVD and CD I could get my hand on and I learned yeah there are hundreds and hundreds of myths and legends of these dragon -like creatures around the world.

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Well, they didn't get called dinosaurs until 1841. That's when the term terrible lizard or dinosaur was coined, but before that all the cultures called them dragons.

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And you can go in all these different cultures and you can see dragon stories and myths and legends today. So that's where we will start out with this short video from Animal Planet.

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There is one creature remembered in the legends of almost every human culture that ever existed.

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A creature depicted with remarkable similarity by the Chinese, the

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Aztecs, even the Inuit who live in a frozen land where no reptiles are found.

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Even they have stories of this animal, the dragon. Cultures from different continents, people who had no contact with one another, yet all of them have stories describing the same mythical animal.

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Could it be these stories were more than myth? What if we discovered that this creature that haunts our imagination had once been real?

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If dragons were real, then what were they really like? How did they fly and how did they breathe fire?

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Why did they die out? So if you guys ever been to a library or a university before where you see a person sitting behind a desk who's got bifocals on, they're past 70, and they're a true scholar.

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They've been living in books their whole lives. Have you ever seen a true scholar? Well, if we were to go, yeah, here's one right over here at Dr.

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Nicholas. He is a true scholar. But I'm talking about someone who just lives in libraries and they're a history buff and they've been drinking in hundreds and hundreds of books over their lives.

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If you were to go to a true scholar in leading secular and Christian universities worldwide and ask them this question, tell me about dragon myths and legends and how deep and how far back they go and what countries they cover.

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An honest scholar will tell you this, dragon myths and legends are in every country and through all of written history.

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Those two things are true facts. Now, I could bring up all kinds of evidence to support that, but if you take any culture, for example, the

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Chinese, as far back as you can go, they're talking about these dragon creatures. The Nordics, same kind of thing.

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Their history doesn't go back too far, but as far back as it goes, they're talking about these dragon creatures.

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They're carving them on the front of their Viking ships. Dragons were a reality to ancient cultures and most every culture around the world.

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Here's even a clip from Live Science, and they say of all the creatures that ever lived, pterosaurs probably most closely resembled the dragons of the

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European legend. So the Europeans talked a lot about these pterosaurs. Reptilian and featherless pterosaurs flew on wings of hide that were supported by a single long and bony finger.

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And that's from a site from a secular source. And of course, here's what pterosaurs look like. They look like dragons.

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They look exactly like you would expect a dragon to look. When you go through the medieval areas, and you go through Europe and Germany and everything, and you look in the old castles, you see all kinds of paintings and drawings, and oftentimes they draw them just like this pterosaur here.

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It's also very interesting for me with the dinosaur research that I've done, that I had to come face -to -face with this question.

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Why is it that pterosaurs are found in all three dinosaur layers? The Triassic, the

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Jurassic, and the Cretaceous, without signs of evolution between those three different layers.

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How did, why is it that those creatures in their present form as pterosaurs, why are they buried in all three

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Mesozoic layers like that? Well, it makes perfect sense, because if there was a worldwide flood, the ones that were hanging out in the marine layers, the sock and the tip of canoe, which are the first two mega sequences that happened during the flood, they would have bought it first, unannounced.

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These tidal waves are coming up, not time to get airborne, and they're swamped and they die. So they're in the lower rock layers.

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The other ones could fly for a while, maybe hop from mountaintop to mountaintop, run out of strength, and then they fold their wings and flop in the ocean, then they get buried.

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Then the very last ones are buried in the highest layers, in the Cretaceous layers, and make, it makes perfect sense from a flood standpoint that we would have pterosaurs buried in all three layers like that.

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So take a look at this creature. This is Dracorex hargwurtsia, which is a Pachycephalosaurus, and they found it in the

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Hell Creek Formation in central South Dakota. Well, what does that creature look like to you?

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Well, it looks like a dragon. It's got horns. It's got a bony nose. It's got teeth that kind of look like a dragon and big scary eyes.

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Well, artist renditions, when we ask them to draw a dragon, when they look at it, they make it pretty much looking like that.

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So here, here it is again, and here's a zoom of its head, and look what they're drawing in China 800 years ago.

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Here's a tapestry of what they thought a dragon looked like. Here's the Dracorex.

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Here's the Chinese dragon, and I'm not saying necessarily that this Chinese dragon was a

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Pachycephalosaurus, but look, it's got three claws. It's got a reptilian bony structure.

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It's got scales. It's got a head with large eyes in front. It's got some horns.

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It looks like a dragon. My son just sent me this yesterday, and I haven't seen this yet in any creationist literature.

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This is a door in Iceland that's 800 years old, and they carved a perfect looking dragon in it that was wrapped around a lion, and supposedly this knight saved the lion from this big old dragon that was wrapped around it, and the caption in the very bottom, an ancient

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Viking rune, says, Behold the mighty king buried who slew the dragon.

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So it's a gravestone marker of this guy who was known because he slayed a dragon. So in this story, well, it wasn't a lion.

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It wasn't a lion -like creature. It was bigger than the lion. It was trying to eat the lion, and this guy comes up in full battle armament and takes out this dragon, and his tomb is marked by it.

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Behold the mighty king buried who slew a dragon. This is just one example.

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I'm not cherry -picking. This is just one of hundreds of examples. You know, we can shoot holes in any of these individual ones, but the collective mosaic of evidence shows there's a tradition.

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There's a theme. There's an overarching, a whole baggage of evidence that proves this throughout every culture.

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There it is. That's what it looks like when you zoom in. You can see a clear dragon there. Here's another zoom up.

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There's the king, the knight, that's coming up, and he's removing this dragon that's trying to eat a lion.

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So everyone back then, they knew what a lion was, and so they drew this dragon on top of the lion.

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Definitely was not a lion. So how do we fit these dragons into the Bible? We summarized this just early.

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So we've got about 6 ,000 years of history. Their dinosaurs are created on day six. We have the fall and corruption that enters into earth for about 1 ,656 years.

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Then we have the flood, and about 85 varieties or sorts of dinosaurs are probably brought onto the ark at the family level.

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And then we have these dragons. These dinosaurs were rare. They were hunted, they were hungry, and they were not necessarily equipped for the post -flood world.

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So we have a lot of extinction going on, but some of them probably thrived. Well, are dinosaurs directly in the

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Bible? And I would say clearly, yes, they are. In fact, two specific species, I believe, are referenced in the

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Bible. The first is Job chapter 40 with the behemoth, which we believe is a sauropod dinosaur.

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And for me, it's a very, very easy explanation. It's a go -to. I think it's perfectly fitting.

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Starting first with where God calls this creature the chief of all of his created works.

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And the Hebrew, I'm told, carries the idea of first in a ranked list. It's the chief.

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It's the foremost. It's the number one. And God's calling out this creature, and he says to Job, Behold, behemoth, which is the chief of all my created works, which

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I made along with you. Like, I made it on the same day with you, and it's got a tail that sways like a cedar tree.

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Well, that's what the Hebrew means. It's got a tail, and it's like a cedar tree, and it can sway. And did you know that these big sauropods, the bigger ones that they found, the

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Titanosaurs or the Dreadnoughta, some of these species that they found, they're up to 120 feet long from nose to tail.

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That's six freeway lengths. We can't even comprehend the size of this animal. Probably just as wide as this auditorium here.

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And if it turned around in a circle, it's got a 250 -foot kill zone with its tail.

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With a few steps, it can have a diameter or a radius of 250 feet.

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We're going to spin around, and God says, Nothing can approach this creature, but its maker.

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And that's exactly what would happen. If you've got a huge sauropod, 100 feet long, and it turns around with its tail, that can weigh up to 700 pounds, or I'm sorry, 7 ,000 pounds, and be 30 feet long, you could not get near to this creature.

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And some scientists, secular scientists, have even looked at a Diplodocus tail and have done simulations thinking,

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You know what? If it whipped its tail, it could have a sonic snap at the end, just like a whip. So imagine a tail with multiple vertebrae that's traveling over 600 miles an hour near the tip.

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It probably could cut things in half with the tip. So it's got a great defense mechanism, and certainly there's no way you could get near this creature.

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God says only he could walk up to it. So when the Bible goes on, it says like a raging river does not alarm it.

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It is secure because it's heavy and planted in a river, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.

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They can just sit there in the Jordan River at a flood stage, take the water in. It's got ribs like rods of iron and bones that are tubes of bronze.

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Its sinews of its thighs are closely knit. It's an amazing description of a sauropod dinosaur.

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Well, if you break it out by its taxonomy, if you just take all 14 characteristics that are in Job chapter 40 about this creature, well, all of them perfectly fit a sauropod dinosaur.

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But if you approach the footnotes of some study Bibles, they'll say, well, maybe it was a hippopotamus. Well, these descriptions don't really fit a hippopotamus, nor do they fit a crocodile, even though some study

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Bible notes will say, well, maybe it was just a crocodile. That's because you're trying to fit man's word into God's word.

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It's clearly a description of a sauropod. God called this creature that had this leg bone the chief of all of his created works.

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And if you take this bone, cut it in half, and look at the cross -section, you know what it looks like? A tube of bronze.

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It's got a hard enamel on the circular outside, then it's got the the marrow spongy bone on the inside that's a little bit lighter.

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It looks like a tube, and it looks like a majestic tube of bronze. And this creature could step, and it would have a footprint like this.

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Just huge, enormous creatures. There's a man who could basically step on almost, you know, two -thirds of his body length.

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And look at the engineering of this creature. Just take a look at how the weight is distributed amongst its leg.

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It starts with the hip, and a hip socket, and one big, huge, strong femur that's like a tube, and it goes down to two shin bones.

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Well, now what are we doing? We're introducing flexibility, and twisting, and weight distribution that goes from one to two.

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Then it goes from two to the foot bones, and the ankle, where there's lots more bones that are distributing and carrying all that weight, to the phalanges, to the ends of the toes.

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You're seeing an engineered weight distribution system here that's just incredible. And the design goes on with the

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Diplodocus. Again, here's its long neck. Well, how could you engineer a long neck like that?

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Scientists are baffled, saying how could it breathe? How could it drink? How's this going to hold up its neck?

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How could you hold up your neck like that if you've got 30 feet worth of vertebrae weighing down your neck?

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It would just have to keep its head on the ground all the time, you would think. Well, they've learned that its vertebrae and its neck are pneumatic.

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They're like honeycomb, like styrofoam. They were charged with air. Well, here's how it could use its neck.

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They're called chevron bones, and they're like linking and connecting points that kind of ratchet like a chain right below its neck.

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And they're connection points from the muscles and the tendons there that allow this thing to flex and fold and drink and breathe and eat.

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It's a design -engineered neck. There's no other way around it. Look at this construction boom.

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This isn't my drawing. This is a drawing from Dr. Waddell. He's a leading sauropod expert, a secularist as far as I know.

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And he says, you know what? It's really engineered like a construction boom with all of these linking chains that are distributing the weight and allowing it to flex.

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And then you can't have a long tail without a long head and a long neck without a long tail because there's tension loading this way and compressive loading this way.

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So it's much like an engineered suspension bridge. It's a phenomenal feat of engineering.

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Some of the sauropod's vertebrae are four and a half feet. Now you can't even consider that.

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I could say that 10 times and you still wouldn't get it. I'd have to bring one up here and show you. Our vertebraes are like a golf ball, the size of a golf ball.

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But this creature had a vertebrae that was four and a half feet, and it had dozens of vertebrae.

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And some of them, the higher you go up in the neck, what did God do? Make them more and more pneumatic or more and more like honeycomb.

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So if you take a look on the screen here at some of this, this is a vertebrae. I'm going to fly in some yellow. And all of the yellow are the air pockets that are inside of this vertebrae.

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So brilliantly designed creature. So and of course, God was true and is in every part of his word.

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And he says he moves his tail like a cedar. The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. And Dr.

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Waddell figured out, look, there's actually connection points on the back of its rear leg that attach to its tail.

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So when it walked, it had to sway its tail. There are no tail drag marks that we've found behind sauropods.

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It's always picking up its tail, walking and swaying its tail in its majesty, just like God designed.

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So what about Job chapter 41? It talks about Leviathan. We spent about three months researching

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Leviathan under the tip that we got from one of the leading ICR researchers,

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Dr. Brian Thomas. I can thank Brian Thomas for wanting to bore holes in my beautiful mosasaur.

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Here, he did one here, and then he put a hole over here. He wants to take these in for collagen testing. So that's what happens when you give dinosaur bones to a scientist, you know?

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So but great job, Brian. He tipped me off and said, you know, we think that Leviathan may be

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Deinosuchus. Because at the time, I was thinking, well, maybe it was Spinosaurus. Maybe it was this big creature that had these big claws or some of these big, huge teeth.

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But after we did some of our own research, you know, we don't know for sure. This is a guess.

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The Bible doesn't say Leviathan is a Deinosuchus. But its description that God did give us makes it very clear.

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It appears to be a large crocodilian type of creature. And Deinosuchus is in the super croc family.

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It was 40 feet long, weighed seven tons. And they have evidence that it attacked and ate dinosaurs.

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So imagine a crocodile that's 40 feet long. Most of them in the Everglades are like 11, 12, 13 feet for a huge one.

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But God describes these plates, these bony skeleton or, you know, bone plates that are about two inches thick.

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But God describes these plates on the back that look like, that sound like osteoderms. Because he says that it's got these armored plates where no air can pass between.

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And then God names seven different weapon systems and says they're just a joke against Leviathan.

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God kind of mocks and says, go ahead, just try the dart, the arrow, the spear, the javelin, the fishing hook.

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He says, you go ahead and have at it and see how well, how successful. And God says, you'll regret it. If you attack this animal with your little medieval weapons, with your little bows narrowed, you're going to regret it.

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And you're going to have to, you will not likely live to tell about it. So what we did is we tested a lot of these medieval weapon systems against just a six foot tall alligator back.

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What's called a hornback that had osteoderms on it that were just about the size of silver dollars with these bony plates on there.

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We took a medieval bow with about a 60 pound draw and every different type of arrow tip we found that could be period correct to where in the time of the book of Job was written.

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And we tried shooting it through this hornback plate on just a six foot tall alligator and could hardly do it.

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We put ballistic gel behind it and we put slow motion cameras on it. And people like the video. It's got over 300 ,000 views on it.

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But I think that there's good biblical and scientific and paleontological reasons to believe that Leviathan was a dinosaur super croc.

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So I would encourage you to go check out that video for learning more about that. But thanks to Brian Thomas from ICR, I think we've got a good indication of what that creature might be.

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So now let's turn to Noah's flood because that's what was responsible for burying these creatures.

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God has given us the timeline for the flood. So we don't want to infer necessarily a super specific model on how the flood went down.

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But at the same time, God did give us clear scriptures from a diary from Noah who lived through the entire flood process.

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And he described for three chapters. It's the longest description of a single event in the entire

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Bible. He gave us descriptions of what was going on, what he was seeing, when the fountains of the great deep started, when they stopped, when the rain stopped, when the wind stopped.

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He gave us all kinds of narratives. And Noah was saying, look, the, you know, that God shut us in and the flooding happened and the ark got mobile.

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And then for 150 days, the water was coming up and zenith and peaked. Then there's a slight pause.

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And then the water starts receding off of the continents. And then for 70 days, Earth dried out.

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So we have all kinds of scriptural indication of what's going on. So what we can do, what the Lord's allowed scholarship to do, is we can take that framework, that timeline of 371 days with all the different events that Noah says, look,

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I'm watching these things happen. And we can work with smart scientists to go back and try to back solve what

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Earth processes might have looked like that would have represent what the Bible is saying as a scaffolding was going on on Earth.

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So whatever happened during the flood resulted in this. And this is the number one evidence,

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I think, for Noah's flood. If Noah's flood didn't happen, then how did you bury, how did 14 states worth of dinosaurs get buried in the middle of America under, in some cases, hundreds of feet of mud?

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Many of them are buried five feet deep under mud, sand and ash, maybe 10 feet deep, 50 feet deep, 100 feet deep.

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But if you were to take an x -ray in just the Morrison Formation, they estimate that the majority of dinosaur fossils have not yet even been uncovered.

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They're still covered in mud sediments in the middle of America here. So this is the dinosaur kill zone.

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It's 1 ,800 miles long, 1 ,000 miles wide, and represents one million square miles.

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How did this happen? The only way you can take 14 states and fill them with dead dinosaurs and fish and clams and oysters and all kinds of marine life is to have a worldwide cataclysm and bring so much water up so quick that they're buried in layers.

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So you need layers and you need lots of mud. Catastrophic plate tectonics explains how that can happen because if the only way you're going to get layers in strata is if you're bringing in sheets of water, depositing mud and ash and sand, and then peeling it back off.

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Bring in another sheet, peel it back off. Bring another sheet, peel it back off. It's pretty obvious that tsunami actions were doing this.

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Then you need a lot of mud, and so you need something that's going to bring up water that's going to be hundreds of feet fire because mud compresses over time.

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So Noah's Flood's a perfect explanation for that. It's hard to fathom, but if you go to a place like Dinosaur National Monument, look at these dinosaur -bearing flood layers.

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This is just Utah. You can see here you could fly a drone or a helicopter through there.

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It would take you days to hike through this region, and you'd find all kinds of dinosaur fossils.

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This vast extent carries on and on and on, more than our brains can imagine.

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So we worked with one of our board members, a guy named Isaac, to develop a simulation to show you the extent of what the

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Morrison Formation might look like. So this is the Morrison Formation. It's a Jurassic formation. It takes up about 13 states or touches 13 states.

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It's about 700 ,000 square miles. It's at the heart and the center of the dinosaur kill zone that I just showed you guys.

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So here we go. That's where the Morrison Formation overlaid is over Google Maps. Now let's fly in to the heart and center of it, to right in the middle of Morrison, Colorado, and let's fly in all the way and get an

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Earth -view orientation. So there's the Morrison Formation. You can see the big red part is the

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Morrison Formation strata, which averages in most places about 300 feet thick.

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So let's think about this. 13 states. We just zoomed into one location in the heart of the Morrison Formation.

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You've got a 300 -foot -thick dinosaur -bearing mud strata. Let's zoom in again.

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So 300 feet. Let's take a Boeing 747 jet and put it as a nosedive right in the middle of this

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Morrison Formation. Here we go. The plane's 230 feet, so you could bury an entire 747 plane vertically in this

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Morrison Formation. That covers 13 states. Here's the Empire State Building.

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Let's put that in for comparison, too. What on Earth, what mechanism could bury 13 states with this type of a formation and fill it with dinosaurs?

30:18

It's an absolute joke to say something like an asteroid that was 2 ,000 miles south of this location could have brought hundreds of feet of mud over all these dinosaurs.

30:29

People are being duped into believing that Chicxulub asteroid did this on the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico.

30:36

It's impossible. It's just amazing to see how clear it is that there was a worldwide flood.

30:42

And it was probably over 300 feet thick because mud compresses over time. Some scientists and geologists say it can compress up to 90%.

30:49

We went conservative and just say, well, what if the mud compressed just 50 %? Now we have a 600 -foot -thick layer that covers 13 states that's filled with dinosaurs.

30:59

It took a worldwide flood. What about all these species that we find buried together?

31:04

Because we find dinosaur species that are buried together at the same time in the same regions.

31:11

This picture shows every single dinosaur species that they found in the Morrison Formation, that 13 -state area that I just showed you.

31:20

They're all dead, every single one of these creatures, the entire species, they're all gone.

31:26

And they're all buried in that same layer. You find every one of these dinosaur species on this picture.

31:32

This is the Morrison Formation dinosaur species chart. All these different varieties.

31:38

What could take this entire ecosystem and bury it in 300 feet of mud? It had to be a worldwide cataclysmic flood.

31:46

So let's get a little bit more specific. Here's the Allosaurus dinosaur fossils, and you can see each one of these little circles is where they found the buried

31:55

Allosaurus species. So keep your eyes on those circles as they fly in where they find the sauropods.

32:01

Here's the sauropods. Think about this. Allosaurus, sauropods, stegosaurus.

32:10

Sauropods, Allosaurus, stegosaurus. We fly in all three at the same time.

32:16

Why on Earth would these creatures be buried in the same time? Did they all live together? No, they were hit suddenly and catastrophically and were buried in groups.

32:26

Under 300 feet of mud covering 13 states in the middle of America. You guys getting it yet?

32:32

So it's very, very clear. And when you go, let me ask you this. If you went to the largest dinosaur museum in the world and walked around with a notepad with a team of 10 people who weren't creationists, would you walk out of that museum with any of these ideas and concepts?

32:50

Not a single one. It would all be obfuscated. They don't talk about this stuff.

32:57

Why, you know, they say that dinosaurs evolved into mammals. But do you know that they found 400 mammal species buried with dinosaurs in the same layers?

33:07

If you turn on Discovery Channel today, they said, well, the dinosaurs didn't go extinct. They devolved into chickens.

33:14

They turned into birds. Well, did you know that in the Mesozoic layers, the dinosaur layers, they found, get ready for this, 120 bird species buried with dinosaurs.

33:31

Evolution done, game over. You can't evolve into something if you're buried with that same thing.

33:38

And just recently, they found dinosaurs that were buried with what they used to think were the dinosaur ancestors, buried with them now.

33:45

So they're consistently changing their story. Creationists, we don't need to change our story. It's written on the timeless

33:50

Word of God. He gave us all the description that we need of it. So how did the flood go down?

33:55

Let's talk about the mechanisms. I think we have one key verse here that's very specific. It reads like a history book.

34:01

In the 600th year of Noah's life, in the second month, the 17th day of the month, the same day, were all the fountains of the great deep broken up and the windows of heaven were open.

34:11

So something started on the ocean floor. And we think these guys came up with what it is.

34:16

It's a very reasonable theory called CPT or catastrophic plate tectonics. Our flood movie that's going to be released in December of this year is going to be based on catastrophic plate tectonics.

34:26

This team of six scientists came up with it. And here's what they think it might have looked like. You've got rifting that happens on the ocean floor, hot magma being pushed up that's pushing out the seafloor, causing it to separate out like a conveyor belt.

34:41

And when it bursts up, it caused these linear steam jets to go around the world. The oceanic rift system covers 40 ,000 miles around the earth and goes around at 1 .6

34:51

times. We believe those were the fountains and it split apart Pangaea. Not slowly, not like continental drift like we have today.

35:00

We have the continents moving slowly today, about the same speed your fingernails grow. Some cases, maybe 10 centimeters a year.

35:07

But we believe that Pangaea broke apart quickly and rapidly when the fountains of the great deep broke open.

35:14

And don't you know that the dinosaur fossil record I just showed you fits perfectly with this and nothing else?

35:21

You would have to move continents like this and create sheet flow of water to do what we just saw with 13 states of dead dinosaurs.

35:31

So when you look at the Mid -Atlantic Bridge, this is a bathymetric map on your right over here where you take off all the water.

35:37

You can see how the Mid -Atlantic Bridge raised up like that. The fountains of the great deep are breaking open and if you were to reverse this, what happened in order, these continents would perfectly fit back together.

35:48

But we know this happened suddenly because there are creatures that are brother, sister, cousins that are on either side, matching size of the continents that are buried in the mud that killed them.

36:00

But they're now separated by 2 ,000 miles. It's called fossil correlation. So you can look on the left side of one continent and on the right side of the other continent when they're matched together and you find dead creatures that are of the same species that were living together but they're currently buried in the mud that killed them and they're separated by 2 ,000 miles.

36:20

So the seafloor would have spread when the fountains of the great deep are breaking open like this and you have magma coming up, it's creating new seafloor and it's pushing apart the continents.

36:30

When the seafloor spreads, it's going across some experts say about five miles per hour.

36:36

We don't know for sure but that's what some of the experts who have modeled this have said. As the seafloor is spreading, it comes over, it hits the landmass and when it ducks under, it's creating volcanism on that margin, spewing forth more ash than we can even imagine.

36:50

And when it dives under, the seafloor dies underneath the continents, it binds and grips and then it releases, causing tsunamis and earthquakes that are just unimaginable.

36:59

And that's exactly what happened in Japan. It was a subduction -related slip -fall where Earth moved 79 feet and that 79 -foot slip caused a huge tsunami, a couple of them, that killed hundreds and hundreds of people up in Japan.

37:16

That was happening during the flood only much more quickly and in more cycles. So here we have the seafloor spreading, it's trying to dive underneath the landmass and it's creating volcanism at that margin there.

37:27

So here's what it would have looked like in an animation. You've got the seafloor, it's diving under, it's bending the landmass, it binds and then finally releases, causing a bidirectional tsunami, one going out to the ocean, the other going up onto land, and it's burying these creatures in cycles and in waves.

37:45

Because this is exactly what we see. The dinosaurs are buried in stratified layers.

37:52

Sheet retreat, sheet retreat. It's happening over and over again and they're buried in flat layers and there's no

37:59

V -cuts of erosion that go through these things. There's only big sheets and then erosion.

38:06

There's no erosion between, only erosion through it. It's just amazing. Let's talk about the ash because this is another big giveaway about how

38:13

NOAA's flood was responsible for it. There's a volcanic system, it's a linear rift, it's called the

38:20

Independence Dike Swarm, it's in Southern California, it's over 370 miles. It's a volcanic system but it goes linearly for about 370 miles.

38:29

And secular geologists say, well, sometime during the Cretaceous, which is when we believe the flood era would line up under our time frame, it bellowed out 4 ,000 cubic miles of ash.

38:42

4 ,000 cubic miles. So who was alive and around when Mount St. Helens blew its top in the 1980s?

38:47

I was a kid, watched it blow up. That was one quarter of one cubic mile of ash, and it covered three states for about three days.

38:56

You couldn't see the sky. So think about this. Mount St. Helens, 1980s, blows up with ash, one quarter of one cubic mile of ash.

39:06

Secular geologists say in the Cretaceous, when the flood was going up, the Independence Dike Swarm in California, because of the seduction going on, bellowed out 4 ,000 cubic miles of ash.

39:18

And it covered half of America, to the point where you can look at the Brushy Basin member, that in some places is 80 feet thick of ash that covered and blanketed all of America because the wind was going to go from the west to the east, and it covers the majority of America, and it buries these creatures in three products, mud, sand, and ash.

39:44

Catastrophic plate tectonics, Noah's Flood, is the only mechanism you can really come up with to explain how you can bury 13 states of dinosaurs in those three products.

39:54

Mud and sand had to be brought up from the ocean as it's coming up with all these waves and tsunamis that are coming up with the subducting seafloor, and the subducting seafloor with the volcanism on the margins is producing so much ash, it's coming over and mixing with mud and sand, providing a matrix of those three products that's burying these creatures.

40:13

It's a really, really obvious thing. By comparison, that arrow shows the amount of ash that was put out by Mount St.

40:22

Helens. It's not the blue square, it's the tiny one to the right of it. That's Mount St.

40:27

Helens. And during the flood, you've got the Independence Dike Swarm, 4 ,000 cubic miles of ash.

40:34

So, well, wait a minute. You know, the secularists say, well, it was the Chicxulub asteroid. Well, let's test that for a minute because if you look at where all this dinosaur kill zone here is on the upper left, the

40:44

Chicxulub asteroid fell way, way down there in the south. So there's a simulation for that.

40:50

So we see here, this is where they found B -rex under about 100 feet of stratified mud, way, way, way up in America, and there's where the asteroid would have landed.

41:00

So we've got this big dinosaur kill zone, and if we simulate where the asteroid would have hit, this is a secular animation, they say, well, it would have brought up some tsunamis covering some areas of Texas and Florida would have been swamped and things like that, but it would have missed the dinosaur kill zone.

41:15

So maybe this asteroid would have splashed and brought up maybe five meters of mud into some areas of Texas and everything, but that certainly doesn't explain how we get 13 or 14 states in the middle of America under 100 feet of mud or 200 feet of mud.

41:32

I have no problem with the Chicxulub asteroid being a part of the flood process, but it certainly wasn't the single explanation for dinosaur extinction.

41:40

What happened instead is you have subduction with the ocean, these tsunamis coming up from the west to the east, blanketing over America in sheets and in patterns, because that's what the data shows.

41:54

They're buried in these layers over and over again. So something came up from the west to the east covering the dinosaurs in this type of a repeating fashion.

42:03

And the dinosaur taphonomy, which is a study of how a creature dies, clearly proves this out because they're buried in those three products.

42:09

We have mud, sand, and ash. And catastrophic plate tectonics explains how the mud would have come up, it explains how the sand would have come up and been formed, and it also explains how the ash would have been there.

42:21

It's an amazing puzzle fit that fits perfectly mapped onto Noah's flood.

42:27

Okay, let's cover dinosaur soft tissues. I think if you were to ask me, well, Dan, eight or nine years ago when you did all this research, what were your clinchers?

42:35

What were the biggest reasons that shifted you from being, well, I'm not really sure about the age of the earth and I'm not really sure about Noah's flood, and maybe it was a little bit mythical, into the position

42:45

I have now where I'm an ironclad believer that I know in my heart of hearts and in my minds,

42:53

I don't have any doubts that Noah's flood went down and I'm pretty sure it happened in a lot of the ways we're describing today.

43:00

But I think the geology was a big convincer for me, the Morrison formation with all the mud, sand, and ash, those were big convincers for me.

43:08

But dinosaur soft tissue was also a huge convincer for me. This is Dr. Mark Armitage who's done some study over dinosaur soft tissue.

43:18

When you demineralize this triceratops form, it still has enough collagen of soft fibers left that can be stretched and pulled.

43:27

When you dissolve away the hydroxyapatite or the bone mineral part of the bone, because bones are an infused matrix of soft tissue as well as the hard bony material, it still has enough soft materials left to be stretched.

43:41

So the case is really close on this because Dr. Brian Thomas and others have compiled a list of over 120 peer -reviewed science journals.

43:50

These are not creationist publications, these are peer -reviewed science journals that have established now over 16 varieties of different types of bio -organic materials that are found in dinosaur bones.

44:03

There's about 50 articles that talk about dinosaur bones, but 120 that talk about ancient bones that all have these soft tissues.

44:09

With the latest two that have been discovered, which are cartilage. How does cartilage last for 65 million years?

44:18

It can't. And the other one that Mark Armitage just found was nerves. Now we've got fossilized nerve cells.

44:26

Isn't that incredible? So these things are not 65 million years old. They definitely fit better the idea for Noah's Flood.

44:33

So about 4 ,400 years ago. Definitely not 65 million. So it's really case closed on the dinosaur issue.

44:41

Now I want to take the last five minutes of our talk. So we're going to cover what I'm going to call some supplemental evidence on the dragons.

44:48

I don't think we need any evidence about dragons to believe in post -flood dinosaurs.

44:54

I think what I just covered should have filled your cup. It should be enough. I think it explains that God's word is true.

45:00

And God's got the truth cornered on what happened with these dinosaurs. But even so, we can take a look at the supplemental evidence.

45:08

We could look at myths and legends and drawings and historical accounts. There's even military accounts. Let's go through just some of them by taking a look at just one country to start.

45:17

This little tiny country over here, United Kingdom. Let's just go look at Britain. Well, do you know that Britain has 81 different accounts, myths and legends about dragons?

45:27

And I'll stand here and say, I think most of them are fakes and fantasies. Most of these myths are probably made up tales and legends that are just going from generation to generation.

45:39

But some of them are maybe based on figments of true stories. But some of them are true.

45:44

I don't know, maybe a dozen, maybe 15, maybe more. But I think if you were to draw out a matrix of all the myths and the carvings and the paintings and the legends and the military accounts that we have and just plot them all out, if we were to take six months and get a whole team of researchers and plot all these dragon myths out,

46:03

I think we'd find quickly that a lot of them are probably fakes. And then some of them might have some truths, but the remaining ones are true.

46:12

And it's these true accounts that's driving a lot of the myths and legends. Some of them, if you go through history, might link back to the actual true event without any exaggerations.

46:23

But some of them are obviously exaggerated. But let's just take a quick look at six historians.

46:30

Marco Polo, Alexander the Great, Cassius Deo, Athanasian Kircher, Pliny the

46:35

Elder, Herodotus. Some of these guys, Herodotus was known as the father of history because some of these historians would actually go out and validate and verify their history before they would write about it.

46:46

What do these six people have in common? Well, two things. First, secular historians rely on the writings from all six of these individuals for framing our current view of the past.

46:58

I'm not saying they're all reputable and all their stuff checks out, but for the most part, these six historians have produced scholarly evidence that people rely upon today for their information about the past.

47:11

The second thing that they have in common is they all talked about dragons. Not in a legendary kind of way, these guys were insistent that they were real live creatures that lived at the same time as humans.

47:24

Now, these people, you can see the date age there, they're hundreds and hundreds of years old. Herodotus is 2 ,500 years back, but they all talked about these creatures living with humans.

47:34

Marco Polo, he was no novice. He covered all over the world. He's responsible for a lot of maps that we can look to.

47:42

They weren't all perfect, but some of them matched quite well. He popularized the 4 ,000 -mile

47:47

Silk Road that was a trade route that went all over the place. This is, you know, the 13th century we're talking about.

47:53

Well, what's less known about him? Well, he talked about dragons. He says, here in this providence named

47:59

Karajan, here are snakes found in huge serpents that are 10 paces in length and 10 spans in girth, or about 50 feet.

48:07

At the fore part, near the head, they have two short legs, each with three claws, as well as eyes larger than a loaf, and he calls them a penny loaf.

48:16

Whoever can figure that out, but a big loaf of bread, big, huge eyes, very glaring. The jaws are wide enough to swallow a man, and the teeth are large and sharp, and their whole appearance is so formidable that neither man or any kind of animal can approach them without terror, and there's others that are smaller.

48:32

He continues and goes on and says that the local citizens in the area actually go out and hunt and kill these creatures.

48:38

Certainly doesn't sound like an anaconda python. Here's some work from Vance Nelson, who authored the book called

48:45

Dragons. I think we still have some of those books left for sale in the back there. He's carbon dated the pigments that were used in making this painting on a cave wall, like underneath a water structure in the

48:59

Amazon area, and the carbon dates came back at about 3 ,300 years old. Now, I talked about carbon dating during my

49:06

Age of the Earth talk. It's good for a thumbnail ballpark for a couple thousand years back, and any time you start going more than a few thousand years, the standard error prediction gets wider and wider and wider, but we can trust that, okay, maybe it was 2 ,500, 3 ,500 years ago.

49:22

That's an old cave painting, and it sure looks like hunters surrounding what looks like a dinosaur, maybe a sauropod dinosaur.

49:31

Here's the temple in Ta Prohm, Cambodia, that we know is about 800 plus years old, and it has a drawing on it, a carving, that sure looks like a stegosaurus.

49:42

It's got big bony plates that are above it, right on its spine, coming across its back there, so if I fly in a picture of a stegosaurus, it sure resembles what a stegosaurus looks like.

49:54

There's a lot of argument amongst the creation community about this carving specifically.

50:00

I'm not going to put a dog in the fight, because I could pony up this example and a hundred others like it that we can all quibble about.

50:09

This is just one example. There's lots, lots and lots of them. So here's one. Brian Thomas from ICR helped me do some more research on this one.

50:17

It's from the first century BC. It's called the Nile Mosaic, and they call this, in the

50:26

Nile Mosaic, they refer to it as a crocodile leopard. Crocodile -leopard.

50:31

Well, it sure doesn't look like a crocodile, and it doesn't look like a leopard. It looks like something that's big in between.

50:37

Maybe it was this creature, a gorgonopsid. So maybe it could be that creature.

50:43

Well, the problem here is that secularists say, well, this creature went extinct 250 million years ago.

50:48

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But my point is this. I could do this all day with cave drawings and this, so you can pick your favorites.

50:56

These are just examples. So I personally think from exploring a lot of these, I'm not a scholar on the topic, but I've reviewed a lot of them, been through lots of books.

51:05

I personally think that it really was the theropods and some versions of flying reptiles or the pterosaurs that probably lived on to the medieval times.

51:17

I'm not sure that there are any alive now. There's all kinds of rumors and myths about, oh, what about the sauropod in the

51:22

Congo? And what about this? As a creationist who believes and trusts God's word from the beginning,

51:28

I don't need any of it. The case is already closed. We've got dinosaur soft tissue.

51:33

When you talk with Mark Armitage, he's been doing this work for decades, probably looked under a microscope at more dinosaur tissue than anyone else in the world.

51:42

You guys, he's like, there's no reason to even fight about this anymore with secularists. He knows, they know the case is closed.

51:50

They can come up with all kinds of rescuing devices. Oh, it was iron preservation of the blood or it was this or was that. They're fighting and scrapping hard, but it's almost an embarrassment because people who are good trained scientists like Mark and like Brian Thomas with ICR, he's got his

52:04

PhD in paleo biochemistry. It's a case closed matter for the people who have studied it.

52:10

These are all speculations. Well, a couple more here. What about Cassius Dale? Well, he says, well, there's this dragon suddenly crept up, settled behind the wall of the

52:21

Roman army. The Romans killed it by the order of Regulius, skinned it and sent the hide to the

52:27

Roman Senate. It happened to be 120 feet long and its thickness was fitting to its length.

52:33

Here's another one by a historian Kircher, a very, very reliable Jesuit, German Jesuit scholar.

52:40

And he says, well, look at these winged dragons. Dispute has only arisen between authors, most of whom declare them to be fanciful, but these authors are contradicted by histories and eyewitnesses.

52:54

Winged dragons, small, great and greatest have been produced at all times and in every land.

53:02

That seems to me like a very credible testimony. He's saying, ah, he says, fooey to the naysayers.

53:09

I know that these things exist from the research that we've done. Here's a fifth century BC account from a guy who was known as a father of history.

53:17

And he says, look, these winged serpents are said to fly from Arabia at the beginning of spring, making it for Egypt.

53:23

But the Ibis birds encounter the invaders in the past and kill them. The serpents are like water snakes and they have wings that are not feathered, but very much like the wings of a bat.

53:34

And there's been lots of speculation on what those creatures were. And I think I will end up now here.

53:39

next speaker is going to be up in about five minutes, but can I take a couple of questions? Yes.