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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a wet and rainy afternoon here in Phoenix. But it's gonna move through pretty quick. I can even see on the radar where it's going to be clearing from the West and Tomorrow's gonna be a beautiful day, and I'm looking forward to spending it all outside tomorrow personally, not sure where you'll be spending it, but I will be studying and and also Doing that thing that I do a lot of on the back of a bicycle.

But today on the dividing line something we have not done in a very very very very very long time. This morning. I was looking through my RSS feeds, which is the equivalent of Sitting at the breakfast table with a newspaper.

But not quite. It's it's it's sort of you get to pick and choose your own sources of information which has got advantages and disadvantages I will confess Be it as it may. I saw an article on the Mormon coffee blog and I followed the links because the quotations were quite interesting and it was likewise quite interesting because the the PDF of Brigham Young's addresses that was linked on that Mormon coffee blog Was collated and put together by none other than Eldon Watson now Eldon Watson is a name that Very few people in my audience are going to remember that was back in the 19 early 1990s that I went toe-to-toe with Eldon Watson a Rather well-read Mormon on the Mormon echo on the Internet BBS network now that's really going back in time here most of you have absolutely no idea what a BBS was.

Only Nerdy geeks or geeky nerds. I'm not sure really what the difference between those two terms is but you put them together and it's somewhat descriptive only nerdy geeks or geeky nerds Would Know what a bulletin board system was but it was pre internet and It was the the mechanism by which you would communicate with people sort of like the way you do on web boards today but very slowly.

And it was something called did I say under net I meant to say Fido net excuse me the Fido net Mormon echo was the Venue by which we encounter each other and you can see what that looked like. There's an old article on in the LDS section of our website where you will see Eldon Watson I going back and forth and if you sort of follow the dates and times on the messages.

You'll see that this took days, which was actually not a bad thing. Because you would write a response and then that night your system would package it up and send it off and it would go to one computer another computer another computer and finally would get to Somebody else's computer and they download their messages and they'd respond and they might take a day to respond and they'd upload it.

And it would take a day to get to you. And and it actually wasn't a bad thing In that sense and So that's that's that's how it that's how it worked the Fido net LDS the Mormon echo. Anyway, Eldon Watson, I knew had access to a great deal of information about Brigham Young.

So I was a little bit interested to read quotations from Brigham Young's addresses volume 2 dot PDF That was linked on on This particular blog article there was some fascinating things in this and so we have not talked about Mormonism in a long time phone lines not connecting through.

Well, that's great to see I guess because it's raining Which doesn't make a lick of sense because we're no longer using the old landlines we're using supposed to be using digital technology now. But the phone lines evidently are are not functioning.

Well, the best I can I can tell at this point is that anybody calling in is getting a Pre-recorded message. Like one of those. I'm sorry just just like last Thursday. No, this is a whole different ballgame.

They're getting a pre-recorded message saying that the phone line the call cannot be connected through. Try again later stuff like that. So all our phone lines are busy blah blah. So it's even though there's actually nobody online.

It's more of a network thing. Not us specifically. I think it's just whatever our provider is Having issues with. Maybe the neighborhood maybe the city maybe the state.

It's possibility. So but.

We're trying to hopefully call them problem solved. Yeah. Yeah, okay.

Well, we still got dividing that line at Skype as long as the internet doesn't die. If the internet dies, no one's listening to me anyway, so we can go home so it doesn't really matter. All right. Well anyway.

We haven't talked about Mormonism for a long long time outside of phone calls. We still get phone calls and It was Mormonism that first drove me into the apologetics area. Wow three lines just lit up all ringing at once.

Maybe someone's attacking us. Maybe maybe we've got someone doing the old Dial thing or something. I don't know but it's raining outside and and look in Arizona that makes everything go wonky.

That's just all it is being attacked by h2o.

Billions and billions of them. Yes, we're desert dwellers. We're melting. We're melting. Okay, so anyway, I'm just gonna sort of ignore the phone thing over here because it's looking pretty. It's it's Chris.

It's very Christmassy. Yeah, there's all sorts of stuff. It's that's because that's must be why we are must must be why We're talking about Mormonism today. Anyhow We have not talked about Mormonism for a long long time it was what got me into apologetics to elders elders Reed and Reese Who were older than I was.

I was all of 19 when I met with those two young men and That's that's what got all started. So lo and behold many years later, I Read this article and and admit I must find it This this particular section of addresses by Brigham Young very interesting.

Brigham Young is a fascinating man arrogant and Ignorant and when you put arrogance and ignorance together It's ugly. This guy what must it have been like to live in Salt Lake City during the Brigham Young years.

You had the the Danites and you had blood atonement and you had the Adam God doctrine and oh What it must have been like how? Different is modern-day Mormonism. You know, you know Brigham Young reminds me of who's the dude that just got Convicted on Elizabeth smart kidnapping.

What's that guy's name? I've I've forgotten. No, that's not Jeffrey Dahmer. It's similarly wacky, but Anyway, the guy that got convicted on the Elizabeth smart thing. That's That's what I think of when I think of Brigham Young except he's in charge Just just the real Real weird stuff and I read this sermon, which some people identify as just as great sermon.

It's this rambling Incoherent isagetical heretical weirdness and Yet, this was a man looked upon as being the very prophet of God in in Salt Lake City I miss read some of the stuff here I can tell you That no man from the days of Adam no woman from the days of Eve this day who has lived or who is now living upon The earth will go to the kingdom of their father in God to be crowned with Jesus Christ.

Without passing the same ordinances the house of God you and I have obeyed. I wish you distinctly to understand that He definitely taught that the ordinances of the temple There in Salt Lake City were absolutely necessary.

For exaltation now, of course anyone who knows Mormon history knows the ordinances you go through today are very different Than the ordinances of the days of Brigham Young and that was one of the things is back in April of 1990 I believe That all the temples in the world shut down.

For it was about two weeks as I recall ten days two weeks and like that and the ordinate the the the endowment ceremony went from two hours to 90 minutes and The stuff that was taken out was all Clearly removed because it was politically incorrect.

It was it was stuff that people found to be a Brian David Mitchell. Thank you very much. That Brian David Mitchell Brigham Young. They both start with BR BRI in fact BRI there's there's proof ask Gil Rippling er, there is proof that the two are directly connected.

But anyway The endowment ceremony got cut down there in April of 1990 and oh, there were certain people the old-timers were so angry. Because they knew what Brigham Young had said they they recognized the way.

But this is supposed to be revelation and even the one that was changed in 1990. Even what people were used to then was different than what had been going on during the days of Brigham Young. Things have changed greatly and I remember talking to some fella at the South Gate of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City.

And I remember him looking at me and he was saying 20 years from now. You'll see a cross on top of the steeple of that temple. He was talking about how the church was going into apostasy. I bet she was a polygamist, too.

But there's no cross up there. I haven't gone that far. But oh how things have changed. I go back to Brigham Young here. Listen listen to this man speaking. I believe in the eternities of worlds saints angels kingdoms and gods in eternity without beginning.

I believe the gods never had a beginning now the formation of matter and it is without end. It will endure in one eternal round swimming in space basking living and moving in the midst of eternity. All the creations are in the midst of eternity and that is one eternity.

So they move in one eternal round. Consequently when you hear philosophers argue the point how the first God came how intelligence came how worlds came and how angels came. They are talking about that which is beyond their conception about that which never was and never will be worlds without end.

It manifests their folly. There you've got a really good example of Brigham Young's polytheism and his rather interesting world view. Now what caused the citation of this material from Brigham Young? Comes up in this this next section.

There was over and over again. You could just see the Adam God doctrine Popping up in what he was saying. When you speak of the system of salvation to bring back the children of Adam and Eve into the presence of our father in God.

It is the same in all ages among all people under all circumstances worlds that end. Amen. Well again, that's changed and when you know what Brigham Young who Brigham Young thought our father and a god was which is Adam.

It's it's patently obvious as you read these things. Even Eldon Watson in his attempts to try to rescue Brigham Young from the Adam God doctrine. Just I'm sorry. It's just it's just twisted. You can't you can't do it.

It's it's right there. But this was this was the section that caused the the citation of this listen. Listen to the Prophet of God in Salt Lake City. As just listen to these words I think these preliminaries will satisfy me and I feel prepared to take my text.

It is the words of Jesus Christ, but where they are in the Bible I cannot tell you now for I have not taken pains to look at them. I have had so much to do that. I have not read the Bible for many years.

I Used to be a Bible student. I used to read and study it but did not understand the spirit and meaning of it. I knew well enough how it read. I have read the Book of Mormon the doctor Book of Doctrine and Covenants and other revelations of God which he has given to his People in latter times.

I look at them and contrast the spirit and power of them with my faithfulness. My clerks know how much time I have to read it is difficult for me to snatch time enough even to eat my breakfast and supper.

To say nothing of reading I tell you my text is in the Bible and reads as follows and this is life eternal that they might know thee The only true God in Jesus Christ whom thou has sent now a later Redactor shall we say has inserted John 17 3 into the text.

To identify that but isn't it amazing to listen to a man standing before people in Salt Lake City and Saying I'm gonna take my text. It's uh This is life eternal. They might know thee the only true God in Jesus Christ now a sentence in the Bible somewhere I didn't bother to look it up because I don't read the Bible.

I Don't have time to I'm very very busy now, of course later on the same thing and I should have marked this. It was it was so hilarious, but I don't think I'd have time to look it up right now but He talks about how many wives he has and how he doesn't know how many wives he has.

And now he has many wives. He's never even met and that he does not even keep up with. How many wives he has? Yeah, I suppose if you had 94 wives or however many wives it was a Brigham Young had and We have had some Enjoyment over the years looking at the pictures of Brigham Young's wives.

Because let me tell you something. There were some really homely women in that picture. Oh I would have I would be a heretic to if.

If go ahead. Cuz you know what? I'm talking about how Russian women look like Russian men and wondering why that is Russian women get a lot up on.

And it's amazing cuz you got to Salt Lake City. There's some very pretty ladies up there now, but there there doesn't seem to have been back then. Or Brigham didn't meet him one the two. I don't know Is it all you're being mean.

No folks if you haven't taken the time to look at some of these ladies. Oh my I would have been a heretic if I had been married to 94 of them, too. That's we got to give we got to give that man some some leeway there at that.

But anyhow, it was. It was it's quite interesting. But here here he's. Notice what he says. I have not read the Bible for many years. I used to be a Bible student. I used to read and study it but did not understand the spirit and meaning of it.

The only thing I can figure that is being said there Was before his embracing of Mormonism. I I mean, I I can't imagine He was saying that he used to read to study it as a Mormon But did not understand the spirit me.

I just I Don't know. That's the only way I can understand it. But there you have the Prophet standing before the people. Telling them that he doesn't actually read the Bible. He goes on and he really it's it's it's very clear that he he does not read the Bible given the things that he says.

He says. I will now put another text with this and then after a few remarks. It is one of the sayings the Apostle Paul for though there be that are called gods whether in heaven or on earth as there be gods many and lords many but to us there is but one God the Father of Whom we're all things and we in him and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom all things and we by him.

Which of course is first Corinthians chapter 8 verses 5 to 6. This God is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ and the father of our spirits. I feel inclined here to make a little scripture. Where I under the necessity of making scripture extensively I should get brother Hebrew see Kimball to make it and then I would quote it.

I have seen him do this when any of the elders have been Pressed by their opponents and were a little at a loss. He would make a scripture for them to suit the case that never was in the Bible though Nonetheless true and make their opponents swallow it as the words of an apostle or one of the prophets.

The elder would then say please turn that scripture gentlemen and read it for yourselves. No, they could not turn to it, but they recollected it like the devil for fear of being caught. End quote. So here you've got Brigham Young and again the arrogance of this man is is astounding to me.

There there is there's not much that that commends him to me in any in any way but here you have him talking about how and One of the major ways in which Mormonism has changed is that in this day? The day of Brigham Young the Mormons were in constant dialogue and debate with others.

That is how Mormonism grew in its early years they would go out and they would engage people and Given that nobody knew their background and most people didn't have the Book of Mormon and they didn't have a you know.

Didn't really know what they were believed. They believed it would be very difficult to take someone on like that because they could be a chameleon. Even what he says Hebrew see Kimball would do here.

He'd make up Bible verses now. It's a shame that the people he was debating were so ignorant that they didn't recognize he was making it up. But you know, maybe some did I don't know. But the point is they were very much in the debate department and you can't get Mormons to debate today for nothing and Why?

Well Mormonism's changed. I mean the Mormonism of Brigham Young's day was receiving revelation and you had living prophets and yeah. They still talk about living prophets and stuff, but they don't receive revelation.

I mean for all intents and purposes after the 1978 revelation on the blacks the the quote-unquote canon was pretty much closed and Everything I mean the the church would shudder the the LDS Church would shudder.

If Monson got up there as prophet and said I am going to speak the words of the Lord today this will be the next section of the Doctrine and Covenants and here it is and Happened all the time during the days of Joseph Smith and in that early period but it has changed and it has has altered so he goes on to say I Will venture to make a little that is a little scripture.

This God now listen to what he's saying here. This God is the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ precisely as He is our father. Varying from mortality to immortality from corruptible to incorruptible and that is all the difference.

This is the same doctrine. He taught elsewhere that God the Father in a physical body begat the person of Jesus Christ. There is no virgin birth in the historic Christian sense in The Mormon theology here now most Mormons don't even believe that anymore but that's what was taught by the early Mormons all the way through to just a few years ago and Who what they believe these days what they talk about these days is hard to say.

But there is no question that the early Mormon prophets believe that God the Father in a physical body begat the body of Jesus Christ. He had sex with Mary. I mean that that's that's not even a Disputable or debatable point.

It goes on to say he is the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ both body and spirit. He is the father of our spirits and the father of our flesh in the beginning. There's his Adam God doctrine coming out because he's talking about Adam.

There's the Adam God doctrine coming out. That's who he's talking about and you can try to get around that all you want you can you can try to get well. You know, you need to look at this over here and then look what this person over here said, you know.

And and all the rest is that look it's just it's just as obvious as can be. That that is what he is talking about. There's just so much more in this one. That would be worth looking at. Notice it says I tell you more.

Adam is the father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth. He did abide his creation did honor to his calling and priesthood and obeyed his master Lord. And probably many of his wives did the same and they lived and died upon an earth and then were resurrected again immortality eternal life.

There's there's the words of Brigham Young it's right there now today that's because they're to heresy but you know there's just one of the many problems with the idea that Mormonism is a true religion and a restored religion and there's been this unchangeable line of the priesthood and prophets and all the rest that stuff it just simply isn't true and That's what happens when you actually study the history of Mormonism and it is interesting to me.

So much more information is available today. I mean back in the olden days I remember going up to Salt Lake City and going into the archives and and Photocopying some of the the early stuff and it's all in book form today.

It's all online. It's digitized. It's everywhere. There's so much more ready availability for people today to know the errors of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith and to realize that Mormonism is is is Purely a made-up religion that has nothing to do with Christianity and has no historical foundation to it.

It's the information is there if people are willing to go look and I I'll close this we'll go to our Skype callers because the only way you can get in today is Skype dividing that line. I Keep hearing Rich sitting out there going.

Hello Hello, and he's pressing buttons and buttons and lights are flashing and and it's but nothing is nothing is working. But My wife and I were riding I think it was Thursday of last week and We passed two more of missionaries going the other direction on their bikes.

And let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. I turned my wife and she pulled up. She was she pulled up next to me and she was laughing, too one of those two guys Has to be his nickname has to be baby face.

It has to be this kid honestly looked at the oldest like he was 12. I Felt sorry for eat and what was worse. Not only was his face just like a 12 year old. But for some reason he was wearing what looked like hand-me-down clothes that were like three sizes too big which just made him look even worse.

I mean I I Looked at my wife. We were both laughing and I and I said to her I said there is no way on earth I could call that guy elder anything without laughing because it's just not. It reminds me remember LD elder Hollywood remember elder Hollywood the guy had had it actually had a name badge that elder Hollywood.

That wasn't his name, but he was really fancy. This guy has a name tag his elder baby face. He just if he doesn't some of his fellow elders have purchased him one or they need to one of the two. I'm not sure which it is, but oh it was absolutely Amazing they they just get younger and younger and younger as they go by I realize it's Because I'm actually getting older, but anyway, so there's some interesting stuff from bringing me on it is.

There's so much that stuff out there and the vast majority of Mormons have no earthly idea. Someone just asked what's the relationship between James White and dr. Oakley. Well, what's a close relationship?

Sort of like mirror and reflection maybe I don't know. Heard they're engaged yeah, no kidding all right. I was gonna say eight seven seven seven five three three four one, but that ain't working. I don't know what's going out there, but Dividing that line is the only way to get a hold of us today.

That's great. That's wonderful. I'll have to come up with something else to fill the rest of the time. Dividing that line in Skype. Let's talk with Sean in Massachusetts. Hi Sean.

Hi, dr. White. Thanks for taking my call. I really appreciate your ministry. It's a great blessing. Yes, sir. Sorry that my question has nothing to do with the topic today, but all that's okay.

You don't sit around and read Brigham Young's Collected sermons regularly. No no not not never actually okay. I've ever seen pictures of Brigham Young's wives. No, I have okay. You need to look that up on the website on the on the Google Google Brigham Young's wives.

And and then read a few of his sermons, and then you'll never listen to me again. Anyway you have a different. Yes, sir.

All right. Yeah, a reason why I'm calling is just recently. I started going to a Calvinistic Baptist Church Near my home here, and I love the teaching. I love the Calvinistic doctrine everything, but my pastor is into I guess what is called New Covenant theology and he's Giving me a book Called but I say unto you by John Riesinger.

Yes, and I started reading it and I found myself having real problems agreeing with Basically his thesis for the whole book. And you know on the fact that Christ brought a new and contrasting moral law To replace the law of God given through Moses.

I was wondering if you had any resources That I could look into this a little bit more. I basically what happened was I wrote my pastor a short response to this book that I'm reading and he then put me in touch With a couple of people that he knows.

I guess they're authors that defend This system, and it seems like.

I'm on my own here. Who do you put you in touch with if I could ask if you wouldn't mind mentioning I guess a guy named Fred Zaspaul and Someone named Blake White. Not familiar with that one. Okay. Yeah, it's it's an ongoing discussion.

We actually had If Someone could find for me maybe Maybe the rookie or I'll go or somebody we did we didn't we do it on the dividing line? Did we not have a and I'm asking richness not you. Sorry, Sean.

Okay, didn't we I remember sitting in this room with a New Covenant guy on the phone and I was here and I don't remember if it was Renahan or Bursell us or who else we had on. But we had a New Covenant debate.

And and I don't remember if it was something that Chris Arnzen cooked up or if it was something that we did on the dividing line, but I have a very very clear recollection of sitting in this studio and Discussing it may have been with Fred Zaspaul.

I don't remember who it was. Might have been him. I remember discussing Jeremiah 31 with him and the issue of the law. The very nature of the New Covenant is I will write my law upon their hearts. You would have to have two different fulfillments of that.

You would have to what did Jeremiah 31 mean you'd have to from the New Covenant perspective. This is my main problem with New Covenant theology. I've I read Riesinger's book and I dabbled with that for a while, but I got away from it because here's here's the main problem.

You basically have to believe that. The Jeremiah 31 prophecy would it would not have had any meaning in its original context where it says I'll write my law upon the hearts. What law did Jeremiah mean?

Did he mean solely ceremonial law? No, I think he's really talking about the moral law of God. But I don't see any difference between the moral law of God in the Old Covenant and the moral law of God in the New Covenant the issue is not the law.

It's the application of the law and what Christ has done in in providing us with the very means the Holy Spirit of Loving that law and living in light of it and and seeing God's holy precepts and things like that.

It seems to me that a lot of the New Covenant guys the primary reason that they go that direction either as is either is some type of overreaction to a pedo credo debate and I think I have Demonstrate you you don't have to go that direction.

You can be a covenant theologian and and Be consistently non pedo-baptist and my pedo-baptist friends are there. No no, but hey I've debated that a number of times. Go listen to debate with Bill Shishko go listen to debate with with.

The other guy too many names going on here we've done we've done the debates. I'm not gonna go back overall right now, but I think I've demonstrated you can be consistent as to resources. Your go-to guy there is Richard Brassellus his he's written on the subject called in defense the Decalogue and Reformed Baptist theological press.

Reformed Baptist academic press, I'm sorry. Google that. You'll you'll also find a number of articles in the Reformed Baptist theological review on the subject. But Richard Brassellus. He teaches there in Owensboro, I'll be I'll be seeing him coming up here in January when I teach the polemics class.

But track down if he can't find his email address and and you should be able to find it. Just google him and if you go to the Owensboro Website you should be able to contact him there. But anyways, if not contact us and I can give you his email address.

He'd be glad to probably he probably has online someplace or can send to you a rather full bibliography of materials and responses to the the New Covenant perspective. Some New Covenant folks have really gone out into the woods.

They've taken this stuff so far that one even. You know, they we. We've pressed them on this idea that well It has to be repeated in the in the New Covenant or it's no longer valid really. So how about incest?

Well, yeah, that would be okay. If it wasn't if it wasn't illegal Legally, it would be okay under the New Covenant. Because it's not repeated because it's not repeated in the New Covenant. It's not repeated in the New Testament and you're just like I Think that illustrates a problem.

Okay, I think there's there's there's where you go right there, but there there are other ramifications as well. That we get into but like I said Richard Brassellus, I think is going to be your your go-to guy on that.

Okay, great. Yeah, I really appreciate it.

All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate your ministry again. Okay. Thanks. John. Thanks for calling. All right. God bless. I was I am I am a creature of habit. I think most people would be going eight seven seven.

I can't do that. It's dividing dot line on Skype and I do have. I do have tweet deck up so if you wanted to shoot something even though it Oddly has not updated at all during the program. So maybe it's not working too, but I don't know.

Maybe maybe I heard Facebook was down. So maybe it's maybe it's dead. I don't know but Dr. Oakley 1689 is my Twitter address if you wish to Likewise get hold of me there. I might look over there and see it.

We will we will see but dividing that line in Skype. Let's talk to Marcus in Virginia. Hi Marcus.

Hey, doc. I had a question for you about Assurance of salvation. Mm-hmm. And and the question we've been shooting around in our evangelism team is what? Objective basis. Does the believer have in his assurance of salvation that is not based on subjective experience like? his current state of.

Sanctification and stuff like that. Well, the obviously the objective basis of assurance of salvation is not found in looking at yourself. It's found in the the finished work of Jesus Christ. That's that's the objective element is the promises of God.

The subjective element has to do with the nature of your own faith. So but that that's really a massively important distinction to to be made is that there are there are There is an objective foundation for a belief in the assurance of salvation.

So we might need we might need to define the terms we're talking about here are we talking about assurance of salvation in the sense that There is a biblical teaching that the person who is in Jesus Christ will not fail to receive eternal life under the glory of the triune God.

Or are we talking about the much more personalized version of that and that is how do I myself know? Um how do I have a a certainty of my relationship with Christ and that of course is a different issue in the sense that it is experiential it is a result of sanctification it is a result of Growing in grace.

You look at first john and you know He goes to the end of the book and he says these things i've written that you may know you have eternal life. What are these things? Well Everything that came before that and so a person who loves a brother and a person who walks in the light is not seeking to walk in darkness, uh the the person that Believes that jesus is the christ.

There is a there is a solid doctrinal content uh to his profession. These are all the things that john lays out for us as evidences Uh by which we know that we have eternal life, but that kind of assurance Outside of the objective reality of the promises of god my personal assurance is something that should naturally uh increase with my sanctification and my walking with christ, I mean a person who has walked with christ and seen The work of the spirit the fulfillment of the promises of god over decades of that person's life seen The faithfulness of god over and over and over again Uh cannot help but grow In the assurance of the reality of the promises of god now, that's not to say that the brand new believer cannot have uh a certain level of assurance, but It's it it's a it's an oddity of modern evangelicalism um that We actually get to the position of believing that well, you know the new believer uh, you know possesses the holy spirit so he has everything that he needs well, that's true, but The role of the holy spirit in the person's life is that of sanctification and conforming them the image of christ and Anybody who thinks they've arrived at that point is Is just self-deceived.

I mean Anybody who can look at their lives and go? Oh, yeah. I'm i'm just like jesus. I respond to everything in life. Just like jesus um, wow, uh i've not met those folks and as soon as And the few that the few that i've met that did say it As soon as I questioned them did not respond like jesus for some odd reason i'm not sure how that worked but anyhow, uh, so it it's important to make the distinctions that uh sound theologians have down through the years as to uh, the the grounds of our assurance and the the objective element of the of our assurance, but then the reality that As we walk with christ there is a a growing Uh subjective nature that is based upon the the observation Of the fulfilled promises of god over and over and over again in our lives.

Yeah, that sounds good, uh, thanks. Thanks for that man. All right. I appreciate it. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Wow, uh.