The Laborers' Podcast- TITHING

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Welcome to The Laborer's Podcast. Tonight we are going to discuss tithing, and I hope tonight we're going to discuss it in a way that at least

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I've never heard tithing discussed before. The Laborer's Podcast begins right now.

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Now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. Welcome again to The Laborer's Podcast.

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We're so thankful that you watch and support us and encourage us with your prayers. I'm glad to be here, and I'm looking forward to this conversation tonight.

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Really, really thankful for those guys. Comment line is open. Let us know you're watching. Ask your questions.

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We look forward to hearing from you. How are you guys doing tonight? Good. I like that at one time.

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We're doing well. So, tithing.

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Are we ready to get into that conversation? This is a tough one. You find people on different ends of the spectrum, and then some of the questions that we have.

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I know I'm not a Jewish scholar or a Jewish individual, so I'm not as well informed on the topic as some may be.

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But we want to try to do the best we can to see what Scripture has to say about tithing.

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We can start at the top, or whoever wants to jump in can jump in. Tyler, you are at the top.

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If you want to hit us off, we got, just a reminder, we got Tyler with us, Bread of the

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Word podcast. Big John with Real Talk with Big John. Matt, he is our street evangelist.

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What church do you go to? I go to First Baptist Powell in Powell, Tennessee.

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Check those guys out. Jonathan Foster, Pastor Jonathan, he's gonna be joining us here in just a few minutes.

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He's gonna be doing Verticast, and he's the pastor at Vertical Life Church in Newton, North Carolina. What were the tithing requirements for the

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Jewish people in the Old Covenant? Well, a good place to start is with the, what's it called, the

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Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. And I found myself reading it in Deuteronomy.

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Deuteronomy is kind of a summary of what's said in the previous four books, and so it's a little more condensed sometimes.

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But the purpose of Deuteronomy was to lay out for a new generation of Israelites what the law is, what

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God expects of His people, and what their ancestors didn't do that they might learn from those mistakes.

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And in Deuteronomy 14, God says each year you were to set aside a tenth of all the produce grown in your fields.

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You were to eat a tenth of your grain, new wine, and fresh oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock in the presence of the

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Lord your God at the place where He chooses to have His name dwell. That would be the temple. That would be where they gathered to worship.

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So that you will always learn to fear the Lord your God. I'm sorry,

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I thought somebody was gonna pick up from there. The general idea was that there was a tenth.

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There was a portion of what is of their agriculture, of their crops, of what they brought in.

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That was God's. That was something that they were to dedicate to God, whether that was offering the sacrifice in that, or if they just consumed it in the holy space.

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The idea was that it was setting aside a portion of what they produced and dedicating that to God.

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Right, right. And this isn't one of my questions. I'm just looking up the interlinear here on the the blue letter

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Bible. It gives you the reverse and the forward. Let's see here.

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Go to the end of this verse. I'm looking up the word tithe because, yeah, there we go, there we go.

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The word tithe, which my understanding and what I've always heard in the past, means tenth.

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And so that's, I guess that's where we get that tradition, where we get that pretty common preaching, is that you need to give a tenth, you need to get a tenth because the word tithe means tenth.

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And so that's the command, that's the preaching that we get, is you need to give a tenth of your income because that's what the word tithe means, it means tenth.

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And I, you know, was Mase, John, Big John, you were you were talking about some

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Jewish words earlier. Was Maser one of the words that you were looking at? It was, and I'm gonna spell it because I know

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I said it wrong. M -A apostrophe A -S -E -R.

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Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm looking at as a word for tithe. What's that? Meaning tenth, yeah.

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So there you go. So it appears that there's at least two of them that were that were given by the

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Hebrew people. According to this, what I've read, that would be Leviticus 27,

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Numbers 18, and Deuteronomy 14, and Deuteronomy 26. To me, if you wanted to go that route, because,

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I mean, what you're saying, John, and what Tyler's saying, what we're seeing in Deuteronomy is that, yes, the word tithe means tenth.

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We've learned that, we've been taught that, but then there are multiple, multiple givings.

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So you give a tenth of this, or a tenth of that, or a tenth of this, and so if it seems like we've, if we follow that path, if that is the correct,

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I'm not saying it is, but if you want to follow that path and preach to your congregation, you need to give a tenth of your income.

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We've kind of missed the boat, if we're copying the Old Testament, at least, because we wouldn't just be,

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I'm just saying, if you're, you know, following that mindset. If you're telling your congregation to give a tenth of their income, you're not going far enough, because they need to be giving a tenth of everything else in their life.

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So there are some issues there with the contextualization there, because we are talking about Eastern society versus Western society.

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We're talking about ancient Israel, which didn't operate as much with money as a cash society, like we think, as much as they did animals, livestock, services, things like that.

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And so the idea of giving your animals, the ideas of giving your produce, that has a different weight than giving money necessarily to the church, especially when we have, like Deuteronomy 14, that talks about consuming it in the sanctuary.

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That is not necessarily giving the money to the as it is sharing a meal in the temple, that kind of energy there.

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So there are definitely some challenges with how we fit this principle into modern church practice.

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It gets a little more complicated than we like to imagine sometimes. I was gonna say,

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I think Tyler touched on this a little bit, just talking about Deuteronomy in general, we have to understand that what the book is, it is

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God setting aside or giving these commands to his people as a way to separate them, to distinguish them from all other peoples.

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So here in Deuteronomy 14, 22, excuse me, through 29, it's how is their giving to be set to separate them from the other people.

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So we have to look at what is the purpose of this giving, and I would be of the opinion that here in Deuteronomy, we see two different tithes, and then we can go back to Numbers Leviticus to see an additional tithe.

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I would argue that there's three. I would say in Numbers 14, 22 through 27,

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I've heard it referred to as the festival tithe. You see the people taking their grains, their flock, and again, this was all being taken to the central location, the tabernacle.

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People were traveling to this place, so if they couldn't transport this stuff well, they could sell it, take the money.

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Once they got there, buy whatever, and they were consuming this.

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They were having a meal together. You started, and again, it says it was done year by year, so this was a yearly festival, a yearly tithe.

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You go to verse 28, talks about at the end of every three years, and this tithe speaks more to taking care of those who were less fortunate, the poor, also the

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Levite, and here it said, let me see, it says these were to be done within your towns.

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This was spread out over the towns of Israel. It wasn't a central location where everyone came together, so I believe there's a distinction in the timing and the purpose of these tithes, so that you can say those are two distinct tithes, and then again, going back to Numbers 18,

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I think you can argue for a third tithe, the Levitical tithe, to take care of the priests and say we're not given an inheritance.

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I think those two things that you guys just brought out are huge. Sorry. Sorry, guys.

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Sorry. No problem, but I think that's huge because as you guys continue this conversation with me about tithing, not only are we going to get into that other thing that I mentioned that I've never really heard anybody talk about, you know, these things that you guys mentioned,

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Tyler, when you talked about when we're looking at tithing and trying to translate it from Old Covenant, New Covenant, from their time to our time, application or what have you,

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Eastern mindset and culture versus Western mindset and culture. That's huge, and then,

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Matt, what you just brought out, I know we ultimately want to see how it glorifies

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God and how it points to Christ, but the other aspect of the Jewish nation here was to be set apart, was to be different, and looking at the time in that way, how does their obligation to give or command to give, how does that separate them and make them look different from the other nations?

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To me, that's huge and worth further study. I would just throw in there, too, one other very practical side of it is, and we talked about this before we started tonight, that does cross over both

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Old Testament and New Testament, is the tithe is designed to take care of, quote unquote, the house of God, the ministries of God, the servants of God, and so even in Judeo -Christian culture, that parallel still holds fast, and so regardless if you debate over the percentages and all those kind of situations, the principles are still the same, and I think that's probably where we'll end up arriving tonight, and sort of where we're arriving in our pre -discussion is for modern -day

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Christianity, the principles of giving and the purposes of giving and the joy of giving and the outcome of giving, those kind of things have not changed.

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That stays consistent in God's plan, in God's economy.

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It stays very clear that that's God's plan A to sustain

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His ministries in the earth, and so there's a purpose in that. I just want to throw that out there, too, while we're talking about principles.

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And you're so good at transitioning us into the next question, because some of the things that you're saying are helping us bleed over into the next section and taking us there.

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I love how you do that, but before we leave this last question, I was thinking about what just left me.

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You're talking about giving to the ministries, and I think the most common teaching and preaching that maybe we've heard in the past is that the giving of the tithe was for the taking care of the

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Levites, because they didn't have an inheritance, and the priest, because they worked there, that was their ministry, and they didn't have any other means of income.

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But as Matt was reading, there was so much more to the tithe and what it was for than just for the

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Levitical priesthood, the Levitical family. It was for the poor, for the widow, for the orphan, and for the stranger or sojourner in the land.

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So God was using that tithe for those ministries to take care of His people.

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One other thing that I thought was so fascinating in Deuteronomy 14, because we have such a mindset that the tithe goes into the offering.

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Everything is just settled and routine. It goes into the offering plate. It goes to this fund.

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It goes to that fund or whatever, but Deuteronomy 14, 24 through 26, if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, which would be some of those things that Tyler was talking about, your produce, your animals, you couldn't carry it that far, since the place where the

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Lord, your God, chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the

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Lord, your God, blesses you, then you shall exchange it for money. So you can take money and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the

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Lord, your God, chooses. Now, what do we think is going to happen? You take that money instead of your produce or your flock, and you take it to Jerusalem.

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You take it to the temple, and they must have a box there outside in the vestibule, and they're going to drop their coins there in the box, or they're going to pass around an offering plate.

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There goes their coins. But God says here, you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires.

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Wow. This is the tithe that they're supposed to be bringing into the storehouse, to the temple, and God is telling them, you may spend it on what your heart desires, for hogs and sheep, wine, strong drink, or whatever your heart desires.

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And there you shall eat in the presence of the Lord, your God, and rejoice, you and your household.

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So to me, reading this, the tithe is the offering to God, the giving

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Him of the tithe is almost Him enjoying you enjoying

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Him. All right. I think it was, it says, eat before your

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God, before your Lord and God, and rejoice. I think this was an enjoyable time, a time of worship, a time where the people came together.

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And again, this is most likely a pretty extravagant feast, and just a time of worshiping

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God and communing with God and feasting before Him. This is a time to celebrate what

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He had done for them and the bounty that they had because of Him.

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And it makes you wonder how they got so far away to where you have to have a verse in the

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New Testament that says, do not give begrudgingly. What God here in Deuteronomy is saying, use that money as your heart desires and feast in front of me, rejoice with your household.

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He's given them such freedom here to enjoy a meal and drink in front of Him and just enjoy

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Him and His blessings. That's a common theme in Ecclesiastes too.

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Go to chapter five. Here's what I've seen to be good. It is appropriate to eat, drink, and experience good in all the labor one does under the sun during the few days of his life that God has given him, because that is his reward.

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Furthermore, everyone to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also allowed him to enjoy them.

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Take his reward and rejoice in his labor. This is a gift of God. That's all the way with Solomon.

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That's not Moses. That's not this period here. That was very much ingrained in their culture, this idea of giving cheerfully and delighting in what

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God has bestowed upon them. Absolutely. Any last thoughts on the requirement and the tithe in the

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Old Testament? I was going to make kind of like maybe a branch between this question and the next.

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I think a lot of y 'all said, in more words or not, what

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I've heard anyway is why? Why do they give? Every one of y 'all said something about giving cheerfully or it's the intention behind it.

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Obedience? Sure. Sanctification? Sure. Brother Matt, that's what you were talking about, right?

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About being separate from the rest of the world, being different from the rest of the world. The weak serve the strong.

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The weak do whatever the strong say. But with God's people, it's not that way. God's people, you take care of the weak among you.

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You make sure that those that are downtrodden and cast out have edges of fields to pick from or have something when otherwise they wouldn't.

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And that's some of the things we're talking about before the program began. It gets to the intent of why they give.

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I think that that's where tithing and pointing to Christ. Christ ultimately, in everything he preaches, the first thing he does is get to the heart of the matter, the intent of it.

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When he preached on the law in the New Testament, he said things like, you've heard it said, but this is what it means.

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You've heard that people done this, but the intent was this. And you hear straight from the heart of God when

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Jesus is talking about the intents that set up the law. And then we would read later on that the reason for the law to begin with was because of the hard -hearted nature of man, which

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I think, Brother Rob, is why you get from people cheerfully giving in the beginning to later it's begrudging, just a natural fallen nature of man cascading on itself to where now it's,

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I'll give so that I can be, so that I can receive, you know, or I'll let somebody borrow something right leading right up to the year of jubilee because I know that they'll have to give it back to me, you know, stuff like that.

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I think that's just the nature of man is that because he's hard -hearted, he'll push things or he'll be greedy, stingy.

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I think before we jump out of the Old Testament, we were quoting this one earlier.

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I think the most famous verse when it comes to tithe is Malachi, you know, in Malachi chapter three there, bring all your tithes into the storehouse.

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I think that's probably the most famous passage preached in the New Testament era from an

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Old Testament perspective. And I do think there's a principle there though that is important in that is it's obvious there is a generation of people there that abandoned that act of worship of tithing, getting the benefit of all that you read there,

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Rob, and the perspective of gathering and worshiping and the enjoyment of it. There was a group of people that were robbing

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God of that worship. And it is one of the only places in the

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Bible that God does say test me in this, you know, that he challenges the Israelite people, test me in this and see if I won't honor your worship, if I won't honor your tithe and open up the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing.

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I the Lord am promising this if you will be faithful. And so there's principles that do carry over, you know, but those that don't do that, those that don't worship this way, there is a curse attached to them.

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And I know we were talking about the legalism of that, of how that's used as a whipping stick in modern day

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New Testament churches. But I think the principle is still the same, that having that heart of worship, to worship

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God, to give, and then the response of God to that in blessing and and lavishing love.

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And there's this joyous affection between his people and him. But when his people abandon that worship, there's consequences to that.

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And so that's not only in giving, that's in worship in general, but he specifically uses the truth of tithes and offerings there to say, you've robbed me of this.

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And as a result, there is a curse upon you. You're cursed with a curse. But test me in this and see if you'll be faithful in this, if I won't, if I won't open up the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing.

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And so I don't think God's principles have changed. I think those acts of worship and the joys of that,

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I do think in Malachi 3, he is referencing the law of tithe to Israel and all the laws that are applied to that.

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But principally speaking, there should be the joyous, cheerful heart to fellowship with God and give unto the work of God and then watch how

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God takes the fishes and the loaves or whatever that is and multiplies it. We see that principle of giving and multiplication all throughout the

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New Testament. But anybody else have any commentary on Malachi 3 that you want to share?

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Because again, I just feel like that's probably the most famous passage in the New Testament era that's preached on tithing from the

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Old Testament. I think as the questions get on, I was going to reference that later, but we'll see how it goes.

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I'm going to keep it on time for I bring that kind of thing. I really don't think that there's any way that we can take that as a prescription, a description for a prescription for us in the

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New Testament to take it, extract it exactly the way it is for them and make it for us.

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You know, I think you're right. We look for the principle, but just like everything in the Old Covenant that was for Israel, that was for Israel, and that was

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God dealing with Israel. We know that they had certain purposes. We know that God dealt with them in a quid pro quo fashion.

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He dealt with them so that the Messiah, they would be preserved so that the

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Messiah could come through him. You know, all these different reasons, as we talked about earlier, they would be separate and different from the other nations so that they would be pointing to God in that, you know, all these different purposes and reasonings

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God had for Israel. Malachi 3 is just a part of that relationship with God that they had specifically, and I think that this also bleeds into our next conversation, how it then translates to us, but I don't think we can take it as a literal transfer from there to here because it was specifically for Israel.

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Well, if nobody else has anything on the Old Testament, I think that was a good conversation, and we've been pushing ourselves to this next question, and this is the question that I've been most excited about because I've never really heard anyone tackle this conversation.

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We know that Jesus said when he was on the road to Emmaus, you know, he went through the

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Old Testament law and prophets, and he said, it speaks of me, and he went through there with them to show how it points to him.

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We know that the Old Testament, the prophets, the law, the temple was foreshadowing where shadows were types of shadows.

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It was pointing to Jesus, and Jesus said, I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill.

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He came to fulfill the prophecy, the messianic prophecy. Everything in the Old Testament was about Jesus, and it surprises me that I've never heard anybody have this conversation, discussion, sermon on how tithing of the

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Old Testament points to Jesus. So, I'm looking forward to this conversation with you guys tonight.

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So, how did tithing point to the coming Messiah or to Jesus? How did it shadow it, foreshadow it?

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What have you guys come up with? Go ahead, Tyler. I've seen you flipping all kinds of pages.

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Okay, so, obviously, I'm not the expert. I don't have a degree in any of this stuff, but...

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Oh, come on now. Christ gave himself. Christ gave himself as a lamb for sacrifice, and he goes to Jerusalem, and he is handed over for the price of a few pieces of silver.

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I can't help but see that relating to what we see in Deuteronomy 14 with exchanging things for silver, and he was...

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essentially, he was exchanged for silver, and he was handed over to be sacrificed as the lamb, and he dies for sin, and what does...

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when he comes back, what does the church do according to 14?

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What do we do after we give? We feast, and he did say, this do in remembrance of me.

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Every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are announcing the Lord's death until he comes. I can't...

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honestly, I can't get that imagery out of my head of the idea of Christ giving himself, being exchanged for silver, and then those who receive the benefits of him being given feast.

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I was going to say something along those same lines. I'll say I took this from my pastor.

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He just finished preaching through Deuteronomy at the end of last year, so he actually touched on this text early last year, but speaking on the first tithe, as he called it, the festival tithe, and it being a feast, it was, again, as I mentioned before, most likely a pretty extravagant event.

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Again, people were worshiping God, being reminded of how good he had been to them, that he was a

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God of plenty, and as we look to Christ, we see that he is the ultimate fulfillment of plenty, of eternal wealth, and again, in this tithe, these people were feasting as they worship, and as we are in Christ even now, we can feast on his goodness.

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We're still living in a world with sin, and we as individuals still battle with sin, but ultimately, one day, we will, in the presence of Christ, eternally be feasting in a sense, so I think that, to me, that festival feast tithe points to Christ in that way, as Tyler said, as feasting and worshiping

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Christ himself. I don't know this guy personally.

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His name's Paul Ellis. I don't know his ministry, but I would, so if he's a heretic,

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I have no idea, okay, so I just wanted to know. It did not originate with me, but he sparked some stuff in my mind in dealing with this question that I thought was very interesting in referencing some of the passages that we've been reading and principles that go, so just let me throw out some stuff metaphorically without trying to be hyper -stretching how there's types and shadows in the

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Old Testament of Christ, and the New Testament is the reality of Christ, and so hypothetically, theoretically, what if Christ, the tithe itself, is a type and shadow of Christ himself?

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So, for example, we know in the Old Covenant you were cursed if you didn't tithe.

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In the New Testament, if you don't have Christ, you are cursed, and so there's a direct parallel there.

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In the Old Testament, nobody dared approach God without your tithe.

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You didn't come without an offering. You didn't dare approach the temple without an offering, and we don't dare approach the kingdom of God apart from Christ.

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Under that Old Testament, no tithe meant no meat in the storehouse, no provision, and no inheritance, and in the

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New Testament, apart from Christ, there is no inheritance, and there's no fullness, and there's no provision apart from Christ.

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In that Old Testament, God required a tenth, and of course, we can get into all the percentages and everything else, but we'll just stick with a tenth for now just to make it simple, and it's accumulation of lots of stuff, but in Jesus, it represents so much more the much higher demand of God, so that's why

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I think there is the tenth of this and the tenth of that and the tenth of this and the tenth of that, and it really boils down to you're giving a partial port of all that you have to God, whereas then the representation to Christ is all was given in Christ, so what the law could only partially fulfill and what a tenth could only partially fulfill is represented in that Old Testament covenant was completely fulfilled in Christ, so that's another message in itself, and then, of course, with the tithe, if you tithe, there's blessing.

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We were talking about Malachi 3 earlier. If you do this, test me in this, God said, if you give, then you'll be blessed, so the tithe brings blessing, and of course, in Christ, there is blessing, and then under the

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Old Covenant, under the old tithe, the tithe was for a specific people, but then

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Christ shows how that people, then Christ gives for all people, so it's the tithe was really for the

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Jewish nation, which is a select people, and then all people in Christ makes to all the nations, and so anyways, those are stretching a little bit,

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I think, you know, those things are things that I would dial on, but at the same time, as I was researching that,

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I love to find the thin red line that runs throughout all scriptures that's pointing to Christ, and I could find myself preaching a few of those things when it comes to, hey, here's where the tithe brings this, and it's very clear that it's pointing right to Christ, because Christ would bring the same thing, you know, so for what it's worth.

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I think that was really good, and you made me think about how I was trying to formulate how to say it, but it's kind of hard to say right off the fly.

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I'm not that quick of a thinker, but I was thinking about how all of it took all of Israel to give to do the work of the ministry, but it just took the one man, the one

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God man, Jesus, to satisfy the work of the ministry of God.

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That's good. Just amazing stuff. And one of the things that, go ahead,

37:52

I'm sorry. No, no, no. I was going to move on, but go ahead. Well, I was thinking about something that I thought you were going to say it,

38:01

Pastor Jonathan, a second ago, when you talked about the curse, whenever you don't, when you live by the law, if you didn't give a tithe, you were cursed with a curse, right?

38:14

In Galatians 3 and 13, it says what? Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, for it is written, curse is everyone who hangs on a tree, in order that Christ Jesus be blessed, and Abraham might come to the

38:25

Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of spirit through faith. So it's a far more weighty matter than we often talk about, or maybe it's not a weightier matter than we talk about, but I think it's a weightier matter than we understand or that we can convey into words.

38:44

The exchange on that cross and how, if you get hung up in the weeds about stuff, we'll mess around and get into some of the other questions if I ain't careful.

38:58

I think that if I were going to use a New Testament verse to supplement what

39:03

Pastor John was talking about, where he says how Christ is foreshadowed in there, I would use

39:09

Galatians 3 and 13. I'll just leave it at that for the time being. I don't think that there's any evidence, and I'm just going to throw this out there to get a laugh out of you guys, because it actually kind of contradicts my eschatology to even say this, but we know that Christ is going to redeem his bride, he's going to make his bride pure, and he's going to hand his bride over to the

39:41

Father. I'm just wondering if that number of people is going to be a tenth of all man that has ever lived, if you believe in election.

40:01

I mean, there's no evidence. I don't know why that thought crossed my mind.

40:08

There's no evidence or anything headed towards that in Scripture. It was just something I thought about, and it kind of opposes my eschatology of postmillennialism because the narrow gate passage, where only few there be that find it, our idea is that that's specifically talking about that time period in Jerusalem.

40:33

Only a few people found escape from Jerusalem. It's not speaking of the whole entire human race.

40:38

We believe that when John looked out, he couldn't number the people, and that's what heaven's going to be like.

40:46

It's going to be so numerous, and that's what God is drawing to himself, but a numerous world and numerous people.

40:53

Let me move on instead of continuing to go down that rabbit trail. So we talked about how tithing points to the

41:03

Messiah opposed to Jesus. Now we want to move on to, I guess, more of Jesus, more of application.

41:10

How did Jesus fulfill the picture of tithing? And we talked about that. How do we give now being in Christ?

41:18

Now that we're in Christ, how do we give in light of that? And I really think that that flows from the things that we've been talking about, things that we've been learning.

41:31

How Jesus fulfilled the tithe, how it pointed to Christ, and now that we're in Christ, what does that look like?

41:41

What does giving look like now for us? Well, right off the bat, I think of Romans 12.

41:48

Therefore, brothers and sisters, in view of the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God.

41:58

This is your true worship. Don't be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

42:08

And then a couple verses down, he goes, now as we have many parts in one body, and all the parts do not have the same function, in the same way we who are many are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

42:23

According to the grace given to us, we have different gifts. If prophecy, use it according to the proportion of one's faith.

42:29

If service, use it in service. If teaching, in teaching. If exhorting, in exhortation.

42:37

In giving with generosity, leading with diligence, showing mercy with cheerfulness.

42:43

That there's a different approach that we have to giving, because Christ gave himself. And that there's, well one, there's giving our whole self, living sacrifice, that we die by living, and we live by dying.

42:58

But also that there is, there are specific giftings that God gives us to walk that out.

43:05

And in some ways that does involve financial giving, as we've alluded to, that is a component, but it's also giving of time, of abilities, of whatever

43:15

God has given us, using it to his glory. Recognizing that everything we have, everything we are, is his.

43:25

Much like the tithe, the tenth of the product, and the produce, and the herd, a tenth of that was

43:33

God's, and was dedicated to God. So everything we have and everything we are is to be dedicated to God from whence it came.

43:44

So I've got two questions that stem from that, and I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts.

43:49

So we look, it looks like we see a transition from, okay, the giving in the Old Testament, it's a tenth now.

43:57

They could, an individual or family could have given a tenth of, if they had animals, a tenth of that.

44:04

They had produce, a tenth of that. So it could have been more than 10 percent. But it looked like it was 10 percent.

44:12

Now this transition, or this different kind of giving in the

44:18

New Testament, it seems to be that we're talking about giving everything, giving it all to Christ.

44:29

So number one, why do we see that transition from a tenth to now we give everything?

44:37

Number two, as Tyler was talking to us, Big John, I was thinking about something you were saying before we got on the podcast.

44:44

I think you were reading Deuteronomy, and you were talking about the different, at least four different types of tithing, the animals, the produce, and the other things.

44:57

And so, all in the wine. And you made the comment, not everyone is a shepherd, not everyone is a farmer, so you may not have sheep to give a tenth of.

45:10

That's correct. I was listening to Tyler give the list there of different gifts.

45:17

Not everyone is a pastor teacher, not everyone is an evangelist.

45:23

I may be reading from a different list, but you see the point. So you may not be able to give a tithe in the area of, am

45:37

I making a stretch here trying to make that connection? You may not be able to give an offering in the area of preaching, but your gift of giving is somewhere else.

45:52

Well, I don't think that's as much of a stretch as what you're looking at is more of a practical application of the ownership

45:59

Christ has over you. So if we're considering, I love by the way what

46:05

Brother Tyler pulled from, we're not our own. There was a price on our head and we have been purchased.

46:12

Therefore, everything that we deemed as ours is no longer ours because we don't even own ourselves, right?

46:20

So I think that surrender to Christ is going to look different for everybody because of the calling or because of the job that God has given individuals is different.

46:30

We're not all the same body part members, but we're one body joined together. So I think that the practical application that you're talking about where some might have teaching or something as what they're used or whatever capacity

46:49

God uses them as in a teaching format or a pastoring or elder format or whatever the case may be, those are very specific and isolated cases.

46:59

And then there's the general where we're supposed to give God a sacrifice of praise. We're supposed to worship

47:05

God. We're supposed to make our lives a living sacrifice, one that is holy and acceptable unto

47:11

God, which is reasonable, right? If He owns you, it's reasonable to give

47:16

Him everything. And ultimately, I think that anything less than that is wholesalely bankrupt.

47:31

I believe that with my heart. I don't think there's a person who is perfect in it.

47:37

I don't want to set up some kind of sinless perfection theology in that. But I think that your intentions, if you get back to like question number one, why did they do what they did?

47:45

If your intentions are to be God's and used in however sense God gives you,

47:51

I think that that covers where you fall short, maybe. Is that fine?

47:57

Does that make sense? It makes a lot more sense in here than it is coming out of my mouth as I'm hearing it, as I'm saying it at the same time.

48:04

Let me pull this just for a second. I 110 % agree with everything you guys said, and I think you actually said it well,

48:12

John. But if we're going to deal with the issue of tithing, it is about giving gifts, and that is about giving talents, and it is about giving time, and all this kind of stuff.

48:24

Really and truthfully, we all dance around the fact that we're talking tonight about money.

48:29

Sure. I'm not isolating money from that either. I know you're not.

48:36

All I'm trying to say is you're not doing this, neither one of you guys. What I see a lot of times, though,

48:42

Christians are willing to do that, but our tithing is so private, like nobody knows, so it really is between you and God.

48:52

I think that's the question people are going to be asking. I think a lot of times what we've indoctrinated people to do is say, you can have my whole life, but you can only have 10 % of my money.

49:06

I think I see what you're saying. Does that make sense? I just want to make sure that we're just really playing tonight for any

49:12

Christians that will watch this and equipping the church is that New Testament principle.

49:18

He's got 100 % of your money, too. The goal is not to achieve a 10%.

49:25

The goal is how can I give of everything that I have? That's the principle of Luke 21.

49:34

As Jesus sees the rich clanging their coins in the giving there, and he looks up and sees the one little widow, and she gives this little mite that a lot of people have a lot of ideas how much that was worth, but from my understanding of the study, about half a penny.

49:51

We don't even have a coin that's worth that value in our economy. She gives this little bit, and all these people dropping their coins, and they're like, oh, look how much they give.

50:03

Jesus says she's given more than everyone. That's right. So, but it really is.

50:11

It's still the principle of money, and we can't miss, man, Jesus spent a lot of time preaching about two things.

50:18

He spent a lot of time preaching about hail and a lot of time preaching about money. That's two really specific things that he spent a lot of time preaching about.

50:27

I think we have to pay attention to that in the New Testament principle of what it means of giving as we're talking about this.

50:35

That follow -up question that we have right there in this same context is, are we obligated?

50:41

Are we obligated? Not to move us too fast, Robert, but do we have the same obligations?

50:49

I think that's an important question because that's the same question of if I do have the gift to preach, am

50:58

I obligated to preach to be right with God, to be in the calling of God? So, I would say personally, yes, to be a functioning part of the body, my role is to pastor and to preach.

51:13

And if I'm not doing that, then not only am I hurting myself, but I'm hurting the body. And so then

51:18

I think it comes with even giving of offerings, giving of what we consider tithes or giving or however, are we obligated?

51:30

I would answer yes, but we're not obligated to percentages or to those kinds of stuff.

51:35

I like to tell the story of Mr. Colgate. Anybody brush your teeth with Colgate toothpaste or have it sometime or another?

51:45

He was a 90 % giver. He gave away 90 % of what he made and lived on 10%.

51:51

Now, his 10 % might have been well more than enough to have a reasonable living.

51:57

So, it's not about the 10%. I think the New Testament principle that we're obligated is to make a living, feed our families and then give the rest away because we're not laying up treasures in earth.

52:10

And then Jesus teaches very specifically in Matthew. And then Paul teaches there in Timothy as well.

52:18

He commands those that are rich, be careful not to lay up treasures in earth and to hoard of things, but to be generous with what you have, be willing to share from what you have, be willing to spend your money and lay up treasures in heaven.

52:35

And so, I just want to draw us back to really make sure that in the context of tithing, it is talking about our physical, tangible possessions, not just spiritual things only.

52:49

It really draws that in. And I think it's specifically addressing those things because I think it's a standard to be understood that our gifts and our talents and living sacrifices are really important.

53:03

But somehow we separate our money from that is my whole point, I guess. It's a long way to come back to that.

53:09

I appreciate you saying that. I really do because one of the things that I like about this podcast is that we try not to get to a point where we can't make this relatable to the people who watch it, right?

53:24

Because the people who are watching it, I doubt, have spent a week or so trying to find biblical answers to each one of these questions.

53:31

So they're hearing the culmination of a bunch of homework. However, you're 100 percent correct.

53:39

I don't want to make any kind of inclination whatsoever that I'm separating your financial means from any of your other means because everything that we have has been given to us by God.

53:48

Everything we have from our from our hair or as much of it or as little of it as we have to whatever's in our bank account.

53:55

And I've heard an old pastor say, I think I just heard him say it last week, actually, or this week, maybe. He said, if you want to know who a man's

54:01

God is, look in his checkbook. And whatever he spends the most money on, that's his

54:07

God. And that hurts sometimes if you think about it, because there's a lot of money gets spent on things that are unnecessarily, whenever the things that are eternal otherwise get pushed off to who to somebody, to whoever somebody is who's supposed to take care of these other things.

54:23

If if we think about the church, we ought to we ought to take ownership of it to some degree, because it's something

54:32

God's God's called us to. We're part of it. And that means that somebody somewhere and everybody who's born again is to give of their temporal means.

54:45

And Acts chapter four, verse thirty two, in the congregation of those who believe on one heart and soul, and not one of them claimed anything that belonged to him was his own, but in all things were common property of them.

54:59

And that with great power, the apostles were given testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus and abundantly and abundant grace was upon them all.

55:07

For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles feet, and they would be distributed to each as had need.

55:19

Now, obviously, that's a that's a practice that we do not do in the

55:25

New Testament church. Right. But I think that the principles of that practice remain.

55:30

Do they not know that we don't we don't have people in our congregation that do do without while we have extra, do we?

55:41

I wish we shouldn't. That's the way I understand that you if you've got a brother and sister in Christ who's in need, you don't just tell them, may

55:48

God bless you, and then you go home to your extra. You give them whatever it is they need so that they can they don't suffer in that moment.

55:57

Or am I trying to do this too far? Well, kind of kind of tagging on what you're just talking about,

56:03

Big John, I wanted to ask Pastor Jonathan a question based on his comments and not taking away the importance of the the money part of it.

56:15

I don't want to take away from that because I'm the power company. They they take money to to keep the power on.

56:25

And then, you know, the pastor, he needs some money to pay for his his kids in your picture, just an example.

56:31

So money is important. You got to you got to have money. But we were looking at the principle of things, which kind of relates to what

56:39

Big John was talking about. The principle is is taking care of the poor, the orphans, the widows, those who are in need.

56:47

And so what if you have somebody that comes to you, Pastor Jonathan, and they say, well, there's a homeless person here and am

56:57

I tithing by taking them to the grocery store? There's meeting practical needs in that way.

57:08

Would that be considered tithing? I'll give you my opinion,

57:15

OK, and I want to qualify that really clear, OK, because I'm not going to bring a text to this.

57:23

This is this is Jonathan Foster. So it's even though what Paul said was absolutely scripture, you know,

57:31

Paul said the Lord said this not either. And he later says I Paul say this and then both are equal authoritative.

57:37

This is not authoritative as much as his opinion. So I want to qualify that real clear.

57:45

What I would say is no, that's not a tithe, what we would consider tithe.

57:51

I think tithe is what you contribute to the church. And and but I would say that is an offering that is a gift that is normal Christianity and expected

58:02

Christianity. And and but I would consider tithe coming into the church.

58:08

What I'd also say is if a if a brother wants to do that, good for him.

58:16

That is absolutely right for him to do that or a family member should do that. But I would also say that it is become a shame in our local churches that that brother couldn't immediately pick up the phone and call call the pastor or call the church treasurer or call the elders and say, hey,

58:34

I'm standing here with a homeless guy who's it's 30 degrees tonight. He's hungry.

58:39

The Lord's brought him in my path. What can we do to take care of him tonight and within minutes be able to respond as a church body to rally around that to where it's not limited just to the individual giving, but that the church is prepared as a body to to respond to that very effectively and efficiently.

58:58

And and, you know, I've I've run into a lot of situations in local churches that that they don't first of all, they don't have the means set aside to do that because they've ignored the principles of Scripture.

59:12

And second of all, to do that, they've got so much red tape. It takes three days to get the guy hungry, you know, something to eat.

59:20

And and so then then the individual feels the absolute necessity to have to do it because the body what he's been contributing to in the church, the money is so tied up, it's not ready to do that.

59:33

So I think that's one principle that I would say, I think I think in the context of what we're talking about a time, I think that is what you give into your ministry to your local church.

59:42

And then that local church should be ready to respond to those needs according to the whole counsel of Scripture. And then

59:48

I think we should all be prepared for that immediate response, you know, that that. So so to me, it's not an either or it's a both them.

59:56

But but what I've said in my heart to give to the local church, I don't think I should turn around and spend that somewhere else.

01:00:02

That's a commitment that and not to sound legalistic about it. I don't think God's going to be mad at you if if in one minute you say, hey,

01:00:09

I'm going to give this Sunday, then all of a sudden there's immediate need and you are budget tight, you are already sacrificially giving and that's all you have.

01:00:19

But what I'd also press on that last statement just a little bit, I was going to read a quote from John Wesley. It says,

01:00:26

Do you not know that God entrusted you with that money all above what buys necessities for your families?

01:00:34

And so that's a big qualifier there, like I could put that bold. Everything above your necessities is designed to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to help the stranger, the widow, the fatherless.

01:00:45

And indeed, as far as it will go to relieve the wants of all mankind. How can you dare to fraud the

01:00:51

Lord by applying it to your to any other purpose? And so I think it's an important question to ask

01:00:59

Christians as well. How far above the necessities are we living with American standards like like all those would have a necessity and a standard of living?

01:01:09

And and that's not like I don't think it's wrong. I think it's it's right. But then how far above that are we reading?

01:01:17

And so I read a guy by the name of David Platt. I'm sure none of you've ever heard of him. And this crazy book called

01:01:23

Radical that almost had me taking a vow of poverty the first time I read it. Like I was like I was looking at my

01:01:31

TV and I'm like, I am such I'm such a sinner because I don't need a TV and I'm looking at my house and I'm like,

01:01:38

I'm selling my house and I'm going to pitch a tent in the woods because that's really all I need in this culture. And like like so so there was these like swings and all this kind of stuff.

01:01:48

And but it's still something I think every Christian has to intentionally wrestle against when dealing with our money.

01:01:56

Do I need this? And then I don't really need it. Then. I'm not going to use it for work if I'm not going to use it to provide if I'm not going to use it for the upbuilding of the kingdom as a tool.

01:02:09

Then I don't spend money on it and what money I would save by not spending on that. Then I'm going to give it.

01:02:15

I'm either going to give it to people who need it or I'm going to give it to my local church and it's above and beyond.

01:02:20

So John Wesley has a pretty strict point of view, you know, when it comes to how we manage our money, that everything above our necessities,

01:02:27

God's give us that in order to give it away. And so that's that's a pretty strict point of view.

01:02:33

And then C .S. Lewis said, I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I'm afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare.

01:02:43

So so that's a pretty strong statement, too. So these guys of old, you know, had a really strong point of view.

01:02:51

Of what giving was, and so I know that's a little more than your question, Robert, but I personally would say a tide is designed to give to the local church or the support in the local church for the support of those local ministries, but also the local church and the elders of the church are responsible when called upon to be able to manage that money in such a way to respond very efficiently to the needs of the community around them.

01:03:18

And then and then again, but above and beyond that, if somebody has money in their pocket, turn around and give to somebody, you know, bless them, you know, don't don't.

01:03:29

I want to press you on something on that. First of all, I love everything you said. Right. But for the sake of those who are listening,

01:03:36

I want to press you on and get your opinion. So when you're talking about this twofold question one, so.

01:03:45

You're good, you're obedient and you're giving, you know, you're you're faithfully contributing to your local congregation like you were talking about and the congregations.

01:03:56

One is, is it the job of the local congregation to to prioritize the care of the

01:04:07

Christians in the community over the non -believers in the community? Or are these treated the same in regards to how the church's benevolence is shed towards them?

01:04:16

Right. And to the churches who are in a position where they aren't financially able because of the folks, either because the folks aren't giving or maybe the church has the means but isn't faithful in helping those in need.

01:04:33

Does that in turn give the the the member the excuse or the the pardon from contributing to that church?

01:04:43

So let me phrase that so that it makes more sense. The first question is, does the church prioritize its giving benevolently to Christians first and then to non -believers?

01:04:55

And the second question is, if the church is not being faithful, as you said, in its ministry towards those in need, does that excuse the member from giving to that church faithfully, in your opinion?

01:05:12

Cool. Let me answer the last one first and then we'll show the first answer.

01:05:18

I would say I would not be a part of a local church if that's not a priority. Not only would I not give, I wouldn't do that.

01:05:24

So it's it's a pretty simple answer for me personally. You know, I'm saying that that I think it's,

01:05:31

I think, uh, golly, the reference just went out of my brain where Jesus said,

01:05:37

I was hungry and you fed me. I was thirsty. Give me a drink. I was in prison. Visit me. I sit. You know, he pretty much says that's a requirement.

01:05:47

And then he goes, it's the end of Matthew. What's the reference there, guys? Help me with that. Matthew, uh. Oh my goodness, you would ask me.

01:05:55

Is it 27? No. No. Let me check my concordance here.

01:06:00

Check that for us there, brother Tyler. I just want to be able to get that reference. I want to say it was 23.

01:06:16

Matthew 25, I believe. I knew it was in the 20s. Anyways, so the first part of that,

01:06:22

Jesus says, you did this to me. And he's like, when did we do this to you? You've done it to the least of these.

01:06:28

You've done it to me. And then he basically goes on and there's a pretty strong reference there that if you're not doing these things, your inheritance is hell.

01:06:37

So, so is Jesus saying by works you're saved? No, he's not. He's saying, but the true evidence of people who are following me, this is a, this is a, this is as normal fruit.

01:06:47

In other words, we love people. So, so if a church is not prioritizing those things, if that is not a very high priority in the local church,

01:06:57

I wouldn't be a part of that local church because then I wouldn't, I would, I would have to say they're not a gospel centered Bible believing church.

01:07:03

So, so I would have the conviction. I couldn't be a part of that. That's just me personally. But going to your first question,

01:07:10

I don't think there's a distinguishing factor scripturally. It just says the poor.

01:07:17

So, so I love, I love acts. The model you talked about there's none of them among them had any need.

01:07:25

And I don't think you prioritize that over the guy across the street that's lost.

01:07:33

That is full of me. I mean, the poor is the poor and the neediest eating. And I think it's the

01:07:39

Lord opens doors and cross paths with that. We respond, you know, and so, so I'm very,

01:07:49

I don't, I don't put this on a pedestal because there's many good giving churches, generous churches in our area.

01:07:55

So I'm just saying only as an example for us, I'm thankful that, that I know that as, as we cross paths with people, we get calls all the time.

01:08:07

And, and the first question we ask them is not, are you a Christian? The first question is, okay, what is the need?

01:08:16

Now we're going to get to the gospel with every single one of them. We are going to get to the gospel, but a guy that's, it don't matter if you're here or in Honduras or wherever, as we talked about missions last week and the amount of time

01:08:27

I spent in Honduras or wherever I can preach the gospel all I want, but if they're starving to death, like they're not really ready to hear what

01:08:35

I got to say because they're in total survival mode. Like they're just trying to survive.

01:08:43

But a glass of water in the name of goes a long way. And so, so you're meeting that physical need.

01:08:50

And as you meet that physical need, then you talk about the water of life and the bread of life and you eat of this, or you drink of this, you'll never hunger and thirst again.

01:08:58

And so, so it's, so definitely it's, it's a direct avenue that God opens up to present the gospel to people.

01:09:07

So I hope that answered your question. That's my heart. But if you neglect either or, then

01:09:12

I think you're also missing the message of the gospel too, you know, that if you cross that ties one over the other,

01:09:18

I think it's bad. The reason I ask it for one, I agree with you.

01:09:24

I want to make that, I want to make that statement, but I push on things because earlier, like when you was talking about, we need to make sure that we know we're actually talking about our financial, our financial status.

01:09:34

We're talking about the giving. I don't want there to be a, a caveat.

01:09:39

Somebody puts out there and listens to this and thinks, well, you know, if my church isn't doing that, then

01:09:45

I'll just, I just won't financially. I'll be, I remain a member of this church. However, I'm not going to,

01:09:51

I'm not going to give to a, to a body of believers because I can say they're, they're wrong in how they're using the finances and then cite this podcast for their reason behind that.

01:10:02

Right. As well as I do believe that when you see acts, that's a clear and obvious indication where the church is taking care of the church.

01:10:12

However, if we learned nothing from Christ's ministry, whenever he was walking around with the disciples is that every person he met was lost and he ministered to every one of them.

01:10:22

Right. So to this, to the saint, I see, we take care of them because they're family and to the lost, we take care of them so that we can minister to them in their state, wherever they're at.

01:10:33

Right. Is that fair? Is that what you're saying? That's exactly what I'm saying.

01:10:39

Okay. And I'll just make one little jab. I hope nobody takes it personal. If, if your church is a congregationally led church, it's, it's amazing how congregationally led churches vote with their money.

01:10:54

Let me, let me interject two verses here, just to challenge you guys for a second and I'll get your thoughts on it.

01:11:00

And, and these two verses are, are some of the ones that I was thinking about when I was, you know, cheering your own pastor

01:11:06

Jonathan about giving to your local church. And to me, these verses are good reasons why we should be giving to our local church.

01:11:14

So the first one is, and it kind of, to me, and you guys correct me if I'm wrong, it kind of goes in the direction that, that big

01:11:24

John, you were taking us with who to take care of first. You have first, first Timothy five, eight, but if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he is, he is denied of faith and is worse than unbelievers.

01:11:37

So you, so you there have a kind of a priority list and then you have

01:11:43

Galatians 6, 10. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people.

01:11:50

So there, that's what you guys are talking about. But then he says, especially to those who belong to the family of believers or the household of faith.

01:11:58

So, so do we prioritize? And to me, you know, that's why I was, you know, you're on my mind,

01:12:04

Jonathan, you're like, give to the church. And to me, this is why, because we, we take care of, especially those of the household of faith, and then we take care of, you know, those outside.

01:12:16

Well, I think it was Abraham Kuyper that once wrote that the church ought to be a safe haven for the oppressed.

01:12:23

That's part of what's understood about coming into the body is that you have a, I guess, a support system.

01:12:29

Now, part of what we do as a body is we come alongside people. Sure. I would just say in the day and time we live in,

01:12:42

I think if we looked among our churches and really quantified how many in our churches are in financial need, it's going to be a vast minority of those attending.

01:12:59

So, because most attending in America, the vast majority are middle -class, secure, struggling.

01:13:13

I mean, everybody struggles. So they would say, Oh, I have needs. But I doubt we have very few church members in the, at least in the cultures that I know of our local churches, that they don't know if they're going to eat or not when they go home.

01:13:27

That they don't know if they're going to have clothes to wear the next day, that their kids are living out of a car, you know, those kinds of stuff.

01:13:35

So I just want to be careful in the day and time that that was written. That was a reality.

01:13:43

The Hellenistic women weren't going to eat if food didn't get to them. So there's this problem. So now we got to raise up some deacons and stuff to make sure that the needs of the church are taken care of.

01:13:55

And your brother in prison wasn't going to eat if you didn't go. Correct. I mean, there's like some realities there.

01:14:02

So we don't face the same realities. So that's why I'm just a little bit more maybe jaded when it comes to how in 22 years of ministry, how

01:14:14

I've seen, you know, multiple churches and with consulting and everything else that we're building mega million dollar buildings.

01:14:26

And and then the guy across the street, you know, there was a church that literally had a homeless camp across the property.

01:14:36

And when I went to this church to meet with them and do consulting with them, I asked them how often were they ministering in that camp?

01:14:42

And the pastor and the deacons and the financial team said, oh, we've never been there.

01:14:47

We wouldn't dare go in that place. And that's where turning over tables in my spirit was like happening.

01:14:56

You know what I'm saying? I mean, that's like. But you're sitting here in a in a two million dollar building, you know, and and everybody in here is comfortable.

01:15:07

And then you're just keeping more money on how to keep this machine running when none of this is really needed to preach the gospel.

01:15:13

Not a bit of, you know, so most of our tithe income is going towards song royalties and paying the full time salaries for our 32 pastors.

01:15:23

All right. That's a problem. Does that make sense? You're right. Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

01:15:28

I just think about a church with 32 pastors. Yeah. So I've seen some of them. Yeah, we have.

01:15:34

And so all I'm saying, guys, is that's that's where maybe I'm a little more jaded, you know, just just just to push back on it a little bit.

01:15:42

But by all means, if you've got somebody in your congregation that has a need, then then, yes, you better take care of them.

01:15:49

That's an absolute given. But then I find in my congregation,

01:15:55

I have had those with financial needs and we do have those with financial needs that we are actually supporting on a monthly basis like we were literally financially sustaining them.

01:16:08

But that's not the majority. That's actually the minority. If I look across the city of Newton, North Carolina, there's far more that are hungry tonight that are outside of the local church than there are those that are inside.

01:16:21

Then then where do we need to prioritize? I found out I found out last week there was a family.

01:16:28

There's actually seven kids in our local school, in our local elementary school. There's seven children that are considered homeless.

01:16:37

And I asked him, I said, how many local churches have offered to help you guys? And not a single one, not one.

01:16:44

They said they said we've been to several churches and they refuse to help us. They say they don't have the financial means to help them.

01:16:51

And so that's that's the kind of stuff that is anti -gospel. That's the kind of stuff that is that is against the message of Christ to turn away, to turn away adults is horrible, but even greater to turn away children.

01:17:05

There ought to be a millstone hung around the neck and thrown into the river, thrown into the ocean, you know, because now they're they're neglecting that responsibility.

01:17:13

So so that's where you get really more up in the muck in the mire of like how we manage our money and and the purpose of tithing and the purpose of giving is to impact lives and to impact souls.

01:17:24

And it's not just to keep machines running. It's not just to do those kind of things. And I do think there's principles.

01:17:29

I do believe pastors should be paid. I do believe that they should be taken care of and it should be a fair compensation.

01:17:36

A workman's worth is higher, Paul talks about that shouldn't bridle the ox. I mean, there is there is fairness in that.

01:17:44

But once those needs are met and once those things are done, then then the rest should be going to make impact for the gospel.

01:17:51

And so so, again, I don't mean to sound harsh about it, but that's not to be fair.

01:17:56

You just said it was your opinion. Yeah. So I do get a little more a little more passionate about that.

01:18:03

I have seen churches. I'm actually in more than one time

01:18:08

I've been I've sat down with folks who are members of churches, some in our denomination, some outside of it that are being kept.

01:18:16

Their church itself can't make ends meet because so few people in the church are faithful in giving.

01:18:24

Like you said earlier, it was it's a private matter. You don't you know, nobody's walking up to you as a member and holding something out to you and saying, all right, you know how much you owe, you know, like that.

01:18:36

It's not so in churches where people may be better stewards of their money, but they don't even have any.

01:18:45

Right. Sure. And those are those are sad states. What do you say to those fellows, those pastors out there who are at a church that they just maybe they just got it and they're trying to get it off the ground because the guy before him left it in shambles and the central church or whatever is the one making their bills because they don't have enough people faithfully given.

01:19:06

I'm one of those guys. Well, don't forget, I'm a church planner. We started with six six people in a basement and and we're 10 years in now and God's really blessed us.

01:19:24

If you look at our bank account right now, I wouldn't even mind giving you a screenshot of it if I could pull it up, but I don't have it in front of me.

01:19:31

You would think a church now we run maybe a couple hundred people now and and, you know, giving is good and all those kind of stuff.

01:19:42

It's improved through the years and grown and we don't have much more money in the bank right now than we did nine years ago, you know, because.

01:19:58

Because we are just highly convicted. That is, as God and our given has tremendously gone up, the amount of money that comes in.

01:20:08

But then we've been very blessed to give and and so so I would just say to any of those pastors and any of those local churches that in that in that situation, man, just be faithful with what you have and God will take care of the rest.

01:20:25

So so it really faithfulness. It is the principle that widows might. I'm not talking about an amount right here.

01:20:32

I grew up in the mountains of North Carolina, up in the heart of the Appalachians, about eight miles right under the top of Blue Ridge Parkway and lived in parsnages.

01:20:42

My dad was a pastor, lived in parsnages and that kind of stuff of that nature. And. And every year they do what they call the pounding.

01:20:50

You ever been in a pounding before? Oh, yeah. And man, people bring stuff from the garden.

01:20:55

They bring a couple of cans of food. They bring a loaf of bread. They bring a sack of taters. They bring a dozen eggs.

01:21:00

They bring a cow, whatever, you know, like and and do my family would would like eat for months off of that stuff.

01:21:08

Like that's right. They. So the little country church did not pay my daddy some big salary.

01:21:14

They said, you know what? We're going we're going to take what we have and meet these needs. We're going to make sure that there's none of us that are hungry, including our pastor.

01:21:23

So so it was so I've been on all sides of it. And so so I would say,

01:21:29

John, just respond to that to the to the guy in the little church that's or rebuilding or inherited a terrible situation.

01:21:38

Just be faithful, man, just be faithful. Preach the word of God. Whatever little bit comes in challenges congregation to be faithful and generous and then generous with what comes in.

01:21:50

And if God don't bless that and don't take care of it and meet the needs of his people, then we've got a whole lot bigger problem.

01:21:58

So I just think I think that he will bless and meet the needs and we could go on and on and on.

01:22:07

But how many stories have you heard about random checks coming in from the IRS or like this donor drive through town and say, man, something stopped me and I'm supposed to give you this.

01:22:16

And like I've got I could write a book on those kind of stories. And so it's just pretty amazing.

01:22:22

So God God shows up and shows out if we're just faithful. And for that reason, kind of going off what you're talking about with sacrificial giving is why

01:22:33

I'm honestly partial to the idea of the home church in the 21st century. That idea that rather than sinking all this money into a building fund and paying for this big expensive building and the property taxes and all that, all the crazy stuff that we're able to take that money we would have been putting into a building and we're putting it into the community that added financial freedom there.

01:22:56

And I'm partial to that idea, honestly, and especially given how much things are getting more expensive now than they were in the first century.

01:23:06

I think it can be good tools, you know, and Matt, I want you to speak to that because you've been quite sorry.

01:23:13

But I think I think every everything that we have should be viewed as a tool.

01:23:21

So I own a construction company and I was today buying a couple of tools and there was on the wall the cheapest of the cheap tool and I held it in my hand and I was like, this tool right here is going to break the second time

01:23:38

I use it. This is a piece of junk. And so then I went two aisles down and there was this red tool.

01:23:48

I guess I can say the name without copyright issues, you know, called

01:23:55

Makita, you know, and I'm sorry, Milwaukee. I'm sorry, Milwaukee. And I was holding the

01:24:01

Milwaukee's. I was like, golly, that's a good tool right there. But it was a hundred and something dollars more than the one right beside it that was yellow and black called

01:24:11

Dewalt. And I pick up the Dewalt tool and I'm comparing the two and I'm like, you know, the

01:24:16

Dewalt tool is a very good, sturdy tool. I know it's going to hold up. It's got a lifetime warranty and it's a hundred dollars cheaper than this red.

01:24:23

Yeah. So guess what? I bought the Dewalt today. So, so I didn't buy the cheapest. And I think sometimes churches go after the cheapest thing that they can do and not equip themselves with the tools.

01:24:37

And then they end up spending more money than they would have in the beginning. But I agree with Tyler that, that can, there can be lavish things.

01:24:43

So I think there's some churches that's done an excellent job in Indiana. We spent some time with a church out there.

01:24:49

They spent a lot of money on buildings, but what they do is they go into their city and meet with their city council and they interview the city council and they say, how can we bless this city?

01:25:01

And so they're, they, they've built all kinds of cool things that are multi purpose things for the city that have reached and ministered to a lot of people, inner city kids, you know, gymnasiums for, for afterschool programs, counseling centers, all that kind of stuff.

01:25:18

And then the church is also housed in that for big gatherings. But I just think there's a lot of, a lot of things that are wasted too.

01:25:28

Tell me what you think Matt, you're being quiet. I agree. Like I said, I think buildings can definitely be a tool.

01:25:35

It is, I mean, can be used as, I mean, we're called to gather as God's people.

01:25:41

I mean, if we have a larger gathering, we need somewhere to gather and I'll say the church

01:25:50

I attend, we currently are considering some renovations in our main worship center.

01:25:58

And I think they, the elders, they've been actually discussing this over the past couple of years.

01:26:04

It's been a very intensive discussion on their end, even before I started attending there, but I think in that sense, we do have to be discerning and how we use our money.

01:26:16

We don't want to be wasteful, but I think we can look to scripture and see that God enjoys beautiful things.

01:26:25

I mean, we look at the, some of the things he instructed to be put in the tabernacle and all the fine stuff that went into that.

01:26:37

So I don't think we can just say, no, we don't, we can't have anything nice in the church, but I think we need to be discerning and how we use it.

01:26:47

Are we just spending it on that? Or are we using, are we serving, are we furthering the gospel?

01:26:55

And hey, God's blessed us with an abundance that we still have some we can put towards this.

01:27:02

So yeah, I think there's a balance. I think we need to look at the overall picture of what, what are we doing with the totality of our money?

01:27:12

Is it completely going to, like you said, just continuing to just serve the building, the people inside that building, or are we using it to move outside that and do things as well?

01:27:29

But I was going to point to, I know it's way too much to get into, but I think 2

01:27:35

Corinthians 8 and 9, some good chapters to look at as the way we as New Testament Christians are instructed to give.

01:27:45

There's multiple principles in those two chapters of how we should look at our giving.

01:27:54

I think those are two good texts to go to. If anybody's listening, when you've got time, read through those.

01:28:01

Use some good principles to guide yourself in your giving.

01:28:07

Amen. Let me tell a joke and then, Pastor John, give us some warnings based on perversions of tithing and scriptures on tithing so people can be warned.

01:28:28

And then Matt, if you'd share the gospel for us, and Tyler, you can close us in prayer. But Cousin Eddie said that they spent all their money on giving it to that TV preacher.

01:28:38

And Clark says, well, how are the kids doing? He said, well, his kids can fend for themselves. Cousin Eddie gave all his money to the

01:28:51

TV preacher. What are some warnings to look out for when it comes to this subject?

01:28:58

Go ahead, Pastor John. All right. So there is a world of legalism out there when it comes to this subject.

01:29:07

And hyper fundamentalism and legalism that guys are throwing around the word tithe.

01:29:15

And it really is a matter of the heart. And I appreciate Matt bringing up that text because it really is when

01:29:22

Paul goes to Corinth, he gives us a good principle there. He told the Corinthians, every man should pray and seek among himself and determine between himself and God what he's to give.

01:29:31

And then whatever that determination is, then give it cheerfully, give it worshipfully, give it joyously. It's more blessed to give than to receive.

01:29:38

So now let's give. And the thing we need to realize is when Paul took that offering from those folks, received that offering and then brought it to Jerusalem to help the saints in Jerusalem, the folks that were giving were not wealthy people.

01:29:52

I mean, we need to remember that, that these were impoverished people and they were still giving very generously. So I think, number one, we have to be careful of the legalism that comes with this.

01:30:02

I don't think anybody that if you're approaching giving for the first time, if you hear this and, you know,

01:30:10

I had a fellow receive Christ Sunday who's got a family.

01:30:16

He's up in years and he's 41 years old. So I don't want to make him sound old, but he's 41 years old and now he's a brand new believer.

01:30:24

And can you imagine if I take a guy that's 41 years old with three kids and a wife and, you know, all this kind of stuff?

01:30:29

And I was like, all right, bro, to get it right with God, to make sure you nail it down, you better start giving 10 % next Sunday.

01:30:36

Well, I mean, that freaks people out. So it's not a legalism thing.

01:30:43

It's a matter of the heart. And in discipleship, people learn really what generosity is.

01:30:49

And then it really doesn't become about the 10th because I know this guy right now, if I told him that this was the need to sell everything he had to get it done, you know what

01:30:59

I mean? That's what God's done to him and it's amazing. So number one, legalism.

01:31:05

Number two, prosperity gospel, give so that you can be given. It incites greed.

01:31:12

And so going back to what you were saying, Robert, about the TV evangelist guy, you know, there is this thing, if you'll give your money, then

01:31:20

God's automatically guaranteed your healing. So if you'll send me money,

01:31:26

God's guaranteed your healing or God's guaranteed your financial security. If you'll sow a seed, sow a seed, that's the term that false preachers use all the time.

01:31:37

Sow a seed into our ministry and we're going to send you a vial of holy water or whatever, you know, that we're going to send you a handkerchief just like Paul did.

01:31:47

And it's going to have the anointing if you'll touch and agree, you know, I mean, it all starts with greed and it is it is astonishing.

01:31:56

There's been a ton of research done in interviewing these guys. How many hundreds of millions of dollars have been put into these families and they are wicked and deceitful and they are clouded without rainwater, making shipwreck at people's feet.

01:32:13

And so that's why I'm not big into giving to parachurches or paraministries that are not vetted, that we don't know, that don't pass the smell test, that don't have clear evidence of their ministry.

01:32:27

And so believe it or not, you can't believe everything you see on TV and the Internet. So be really careful.

01:32:35

So that's why I'm saying when it comes to giving as a warning and as an encouragement, there's nothing better than having a faithful local church with a faithful group of elders that just as Paul did with his offering that he took from Corinth, he brought it and he laid it at the apostles feet, trusting them with their discernment and leadership, the

01:32:59

Holy Spirit to distribute it and use it for God's glory. And so so encouragement and warning, make sure when you're giving, it's something that you can trust that that is advancing the gospel ministry.

01:33:12

So I'll stop there. What you got, big John? Well, I can't add anything in terms of the warning you give about false false prophets and all the other.

01:33:25

But what I can say is that God is good and being faithful to God and everything that is that everything that he's done for you,

01:33:34

I promise you, God takes care of his own. God was taking care of me before I was a

01:33:40

Christian. Whenever I was young, I didn't know who the Lord wasn't cared who the Lord was. We weren't wealthy either.

01:33:46

Folks took care of us. Whenever I got to be an older man, I've always been somebody

01:33:51

God sent my way to help me along. And that happened before I surrendered to Christ.

01:33:57

And it's happened even better after. And none of that has anything to do with whether or not

01:34:02

I was faithful and giving to the church or not. It's all in the divine will of God and in his faithfulness toward us.

01:34:08

So I would say with the warning that you give, heed every word of that. And at the same hand, don't be pessimistic in it and know that God is still good and that God blesses those who he wants to bless.

01:34:19

And they can't nobody curse anybody that God's blessing. Matt, I'll turn it over to you, brother.

01:34:28

All right. Well, as as always on here, I know our ultimate goal is to no matter the topic is to point people to Christ and the good news of the gospel.

01:34:39

I think one thing you've heard us say here a lot tonight as far as tithing and giving in general is is the motivation behind that.

01:34:48

And we as current day believers, our motivation should if we are believers and followers in Christ should be the gospel.

01:34:59

That should be our motivation and knowing what Christ has done for us and therefore motivating motivating us to give for the furtherance of his gospel.

01:35:10

So the gospel is is knowing, first of all, who God is, that he is holy and righteous and and good and perfect in all his ways, whereas we are not.

01:35:24

We are just the opposite. The Bible tells us that for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

01:35:31

We are dead in our sins and our trespasses, that we are separated from God, our creator.

01:35:38

And because God is holy and righteous and just, we deserve his punishment.

01:35:43

We deserve his wrath for our sin against him. But in his love and his mercy and his grace, he provided a way out of that bondage, out of that destruction, that wrath that we deserve.

01:36:01

And he provided that way in the person and the work of his son, Jesus Christ. He sent

01:36:07

Jesus, who was fully God and fully man, to come to this earth to be born of a virgin, to walk this earth, to live perfectly, to live the sinless life that no one else could before him or after.

01:36:24

And because of that sinless life, he was able and willing to be that perfect sacrifice that was needed to satisfy the wrath of God.

01:36:34

So he willingly went to the cross where he suffered and died as a substitute for those who would believe upon him.

01:36:44

After he died, he was buried. He rose three days later, as he said he would, and ultimately ascended to heaven to the right hand of the father where he sits today, ruling and reigning over all things.

01:36:58

And the Bible tells us if we will trust in Christ and who he was, that he was fully

01:37:04

God, he was fully man, and trust in what he did, that he lived a perfect life, that he went to the cross, died that death in our place that we deserve.

01:37:16

If we believe upon him, if we cast ourselves upon him, that he will save us, that he will stand in our place before God, and then we could be seen as not guilty.

01:37:30

That our sins are cast upon him, Christ's righteousness is cast upon us, and that we can live forever in a right relationship with our creator

01:37:42

God because of Christ and Christ alone. The Bible says, or Jesus himself said,

01:37:48

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me. It's through faith in Christ alone, not our own works, not anything that we can do to earn salvation, but through Christ and Christ alone.

01:38:02

So that would be our urge tonight is for if you have not repented of your sin, turned from your sin, and called upon Christ for salvation, that you would do that tonight.

01:38:15

Amen. Amen. All right, let's pray.

01:38:25

Father God, I thank you for this opportunity we've had to break open your word and puzzle through things to discuss this idea of giving to such a gracious God in light of the fact that you did not withhold anything from us, but you gave entirely, when you gave us

01:38:50

Christ in our place for our sins, for our reconciliation to you.

01:38:58

God, may that be burned anew in our consciousness as we consider the way we relate to you with our money, with our possessions, with what we have,

01:39:11

God, because it all comes from you. May this be something that we keep thinking through, that we would set our minds to this and apply our hearts to it, how we relate to such a gracious God who gave everything.

01:39:31

In Christ's name I pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you, my brothers. I love you, and thank you guys for watching and listening.

01:39:39

We appreciate you as well, and we hope to see you real soon. Thank you for joining the

01:39:46

Laborer's Podcast. Remember, Jesus is King. Live in the victory of Christ, speak with the authority of Christ, and go share the gospel of Christ.