Texe Marrs and Revelation 1:1:1

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white It had been my intention to have a video up on my youtube page before the program today, but I was visted

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That's a that's a new verb around here. Oh, you got vested. Huh? Yep. I got this did I have a new tablet

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PC and The unit itself is gorgeous Well made powerful has everything on it you could ever want to have on something you're gonna be dragging all across the

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United States and using it in airports and on airplanes and hotel rooms and Teaching rooms and classrooms and all that kind of stuff except for one thing.

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It has Vista on it. I Before I called I before I even called please please

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Can I please get this in with XP, please and they they wouldn't do it

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They could a I probably couldn't do it days There's probably some guy from Microsoft staying behind the poorly in the phone with a gun

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You will not sell XP We have moved on suffer slaves yeah, and so so I got this today and So I didn't get it done because I was

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My Vista machine decided though from the time it came out of the box It has played nicely with our wireless network here at the office though.

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It can never see any of the XP machines But at least and get to the Internet It decided today.

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I'm not even gonna do that anymore. You know what I am just superior To all these

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I have detected other machines on this network. They're XP. They're not Vista Therefore, I'm not gonna even talk the wireless anymore.

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So Anyway, that was I Didn't get it done. I'll try to get it done this evening.

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Lord willing because I Guess you know, I I know this mentally, but it's it's hard hard to keep it in mind.

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I I ran the same problem when I'm teaching at church

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Because you know, for example, I taught through church history back in the 90s and You know,

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I try not to go back over that stuff but half the people more than half the people sitting in front of me weren't there in the 1990s and Those that were don't remember

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Okay, I said So I don't have to you know avoid repeating stuff

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But I I remember I taught on it and so, you know, I try and It's a little bit the same thing.

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I've been doing this for a long time now. I mean I listen I don't don't listen to him, but I think of some of those radio programs back on KFYI with Tom like us

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I Was like 21. I remember one of those when those first radio programs I did on my 21st birthday for crying out loud

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That's a long time ago, that's almost a quarter of a century and Yeah Rich is in the other room going and I'm older than he is

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So anyway So I once I started putting these rippling er videos up.

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I Was even watching a channel today when rich first started watching the rippling er a Titanic video

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And it's just it's sort of like somebody even in channel even likened it to watching a traffic accident

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You don't want to watch but you can't help but watch you just you can't tear yourself away.

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It's just like Wow, this woman's out in public even this is this is frightening, you know, and So I Have queued up.

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I'm not going to subject anyone to the rippling er Titanic thing on the dividing line

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But I was thinking I was I don't know about three days ago, maybe four someone directed me to a video on YouTube of a young 24 year old fella down in,

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Texas and He is repeating the over decade old allegations of good old

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Tex Mars About dr. Wilkin losing his voice on the

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John Ankerberg show now The nice thing is he's got this still where he's identifying who the people are in the room

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He doesn't identify me But I'm gonna grab that thing and go now one of the major reasons

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I can address this With more expertise than almost anyone else is this is me

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I'll put a little down there and put a graphic in there. That's me right there. See all the hair

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Yep, I had it once see the big glasses. Yeah, that's me right there so I tried to write this fellow, but um,

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I Couldn't contact him. I've actually just to let folks know I've actually

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Turned my YouTube email off in the sense that you have to be on my friends list to write to me and I have one person

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I Did I did not mean that to be here open door, right?

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Write to me anything you want to write to me and I will sit around the rest of my life answering all of your questions I didn't really mean for that to happen

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So I've had to shut down that and that's a particular perspective because while some of the stuff is quite interesting especially the

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Islamic emails pretty pretty wild but Just just not interested in fighting through all that kind of stuff

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That's that's in there and I just don't have time to respond to all that Anyways, even if I had the inclination to do so, so anyway,

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I tried writing to this fellow to let him know, you know Texmar's lies and errors on this have been exposed a long long time ago and you're just repeating them

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You know over a decade after they'd already been refuted probably about 12 years now actually

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After they'd already been refuted but lies tend to have very long Shelf life and here's there's no place where lies have a longer shelf life than amongst

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King James only advocates who are constantly looking for Any reason to continue to believe something that just doesn't make a lick of sense to any of the rest of us for obvious reasons, so On our website if you go to the articles at a min org

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Slash Mars ma RRS capital M then small a RS dot

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HTML you will find a Article that I put up a long long long long time ago now

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I wish I had dated some of these because it would have been interesting to see how long ago this was but Texmar's demonstrates yet once again, once it once again that facts and logic mean nothing when a conspiracy is at stake and I talked about how

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I had attempted to communicate with him regarding the Issue of Gail Rippling er and some of her obvious errors, and I Said that I had

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I said I discovered just how conspiratorially driven mr. Mars is last year when I sent many pages of documentation regarding the errors and Gail Rippling er's book

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New Age Bible versions to mr. Mars I received a scribbled scribbled note in return that began don't write me again unless in sincere repentance

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You are a devil plain plus simple, and I understand well why mrs. Rippling er does not respond your ridiculous assertions.

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Why dignify the lying claims of a servant of Satan? so when

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I Responded to his note. It was returned to me with the following words written across it in red magic marker

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Magic marker is always a good thing to get you know if you want to get your points across Mr.. Mars does not want your evil trash don't write again except in repentance and The envelope in which it was sent had revelation 1 1 written on the front

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Mars had said in his first letter that I am a sinner in need of redemption so arrogant and an uninformed

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You do not even know the new versions take out the alpha and omega the very name of your fake ministry in one passage of revelation in my response

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I addressed revelation 1 11 and Demonstrated why the modern versions read as they do

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It seems mr. Mars was not interested in looking into the topic as he put the wrong citation on the envelope of his second letter

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That is he said revelation 1 1 Then it said a few weeks later, so this was 1994 because I know that the the kixl

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Radio program in Austin was in 1994. It was the same time. We recorded that video that I linked to Where I joined

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Larry Wessels in discussing not nuclear vessels Larry Wessels in Discussing the deity of Christ, and I was very skinny and had big glasses and yes it was 1994 and So a few weeks later this says mr.

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Mars called in the program and in haranguing me he raised the topic of the revelation passage again Miss citing is revelation 1 1 when

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I managed to get a word in edgewise They point out he wasn't even accurate in his reference that he is referring to revelation 1 11 not revelation 1 1 and What I'm gonna do is

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I'm gonna play for you the text Mars phone call and You all this is what

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I'm gonna be putting all this in the video So if you want to see all this in one place, I'm gonna put it all in there, but it's fascinating to listen to this and Right before would be good if I plug the computer in And there we go

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I normally plug that in beforehand, but hey we are professionals here, so you all can handle it So actually we have a whole lot better setup than most of the radio stations

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Much more modern equipment than most radio stations. We've been at sadly says something about Christian radio, but anyhow

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I You're all gonna hear this with more clarity than anyone has heard it since the night it aired on kixl

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Why is that because? Just sitting here before the program. I was queuing this up, and I the sound quality has never been good

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It was you know cassette tape tape there at the studio But for some odd reason they could not tape from their direct signal out of their transmitter

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They had a radio sitting there, and they're recording off the air again another excellent example of the level of technical sophistication of a lot of Christian radio stations and So it's always sounded really muffled and stuff so I was playing around with Adobe edition and I tried one filter another filter one filter made just the exact opposite couldn't understand anything and so I did a

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Equalization thing and I just played it myself I said well This is where the human voice normally is and this is where the muffle stuff is and I I ran it and oh my goodness

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This is the best it has ever sounded it may sound better I'm not sure but digital stuff has come a long way since 1994 for sure so Anyway here is here is the phone call where text

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Mars. I was on the air debating Da wait in fact what we might need to do we make this debate available and I had to keep the settings that I found here and Go find that file and run the same settings on it, and it should clean it up.

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Just as much as this one And maybe folks will enjoy that even more, but this is the text

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Mars phone call It looks like it's just over eight minutes on the screen here, though I doubt that I will survive that long without stopping and saying something but 1994 blast in the past almost 14 years ago now.

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Here's text Mars calling KXL in in Austin text Mars Texting there.

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I am Dale and it's been good to hear your voice on the radio. Thank you You know I enjoy seeing your television program as well and and Wanda sends her best also, okay, that's right

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Text Mars I used to go to our church and what church you going to now text well

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We have our own group now as you know we live way on the other side of town But I still have great love for Christ Memorial Charles Bullock of the pastor there.

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He's doing great things and Well, I just want y 'all to continue in your great success. Okay, and your comments to to the debate here

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Yes, I just want to compliment dr. Wait on Defending God's Word the

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King James Bible. I did Maybe he could let people know how to get his book because I have a copy of it and it's tremendous

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But my specific question And one of the things that I'm heartbroken about the new versions and what they've done to pervert

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God's Word To Specific maybe dr. Waite could comment on is it true dr.

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Waite that the new versions have totally eliminated The statements by Jesus for example get thee behind me

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Satan Another one when Jesus told to take up the cross and follow me

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Evidently those are missing from the new versions and also what about the Lord's Prayer I?

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Recently read the NIV the NAS the the two versions of the Lord's Prayer I found out that they were

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Horribly gutted and entire lines were totally missing in the new version and maybe you could comment on that Okay, be glad to comment and of course, mr.

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White would want to comment equally the statement By the

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Mars as far as the take up that cross and follow me It is eliminated in one of the

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Gospels in the Westcott and Hort type text and that's allowed text be an olive text It is however found in some of the other synoptic

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Gospels But at least in that area that one portion it is taken away as far as the

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Lord's Prayer thy kingdom come I will be done by certain parts of it that are omitted and there's no question about that either and As far as the other one get thee behind me

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Satan that is left out also in that portion of the Gospel there and certainly we feel that the

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King James Bible is superior in the keeping of these areas and these portions that Are in line with the truth and in line with doctrine and the line with correctness in all ways

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Now let me just stop that just for a minute moment and point out you're hearing two different Flavors shall

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I say of King James only isn't and if you've watched the Ankerberg series you saw the conflict that exists between these two

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Da wait was invited to be on the Ankerberg show He he declined as was Gail Ripplinger and Peter Ruckman that both of which also declined

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Dr. Thomas Strauss was on the program and he sort of reflected da weights perspective and then you had chambers representing

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Ripplinger and and GIP representing Ruckman and You could you could sense you could see

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Strauss just Cringing at times because da wait does tends to be less radical.

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He's still quite radical but less radical Than the text Mars branch the Gail Ripplinger branch of King James only ism.

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And so you'll notice that wait was considerably more restrained in pointing out that well, yeah, those things are taken out in some places, but they are present in others and What of course?

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Mars is referring to Are places where later scribes attempted to harmonize the synoptic

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Gospels and make Mark sound just like Matthew or Matthew sound just like Mark or something like that and and That's what he's referring to.

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But what they like to do is instead of being scholarly and accurate and saying well This has been added in one and the new translations don't have it in Matthew, but they still have it in Mark They just prefer the it's been taken out.

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It's been taken out. You know, it's it's the wild -eyed fanatic type perspective of things and Wait tries to avoid most of that I mean

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He certainly has made some some incredible errors and of course We've invited him to debate over and over and over again and he won't even return her emails

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But at least he he was a little more balanced. Shall we say? Then text

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Mars, but then I got the opportunity of trying to get an er a word in edgewise I would like to comment on each of those in regards to get thee behind me

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Satan It is found of course in Matthew chapter 16 verse 23 in the new international version Mr.

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Mars when you were on KXCG last week commenting on the Lord's Prayer You were referring only to the Gospel of Luke many of the things that you said were deleted are actually in the

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Gospel of Matthew And we're not actually taken out take up the cross that occurs

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Four times the King James Version occurs three times in the modern text and the place where it's removed is Mark 10 21

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Because it's not in many of the early manuscripts and interestingly enough. It is not in the parallel passages We're Matthew and Luke record the same instance as Mark 10 21 specifically

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Matthew 19 21 Luke 18 22 So there is very good reason why it is not found in many of the modern translations.

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I would like to ask you Mr. Mars Yes, second Timothy 2 24 through 26

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Is is indeed found in your Bible where it talks about how we're to address these particular issues of how we're to?

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Refute those who contradict us the scriptures says in the Lord's bond servant must not be quarrelsome But be kind to all able to teach patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition

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If perhaps God may grant them repentance Leading to the knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil having been held captive by him to do his will

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When I sent you information on the errors in Gail's Ripley and Gail Riplinger's book you wrote me a letter back

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It began don't write me again in lessons sincere repentance. You are a devil plain and simple and I understand well

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Why mrs. Riplinger does not respond to your ridiculous assertions? Why dignify the lying claims of a servant of Satan?

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Would you maybe explain? Why you identify someone as a devil and a servant of Satan in light of second

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Timothy chapter 2 verses 24 through 26 well Now you know

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I if I recall correctly There is

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No way that I could have been just had pre pre pre prepared material

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Specifically for text Mars. I must have during the let's see looks like two minutes and 50 seconds approximately that he was speaking.

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I must have been rather quietly Pulling stuff out of my briefcase or something.

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I don't know but obviously I had a bunch of material there ready for for a discussion and I Had forgotten that he had

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I had listened to him on KX eG. I wonder whose program He was I bet he was on Judy's program.

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Yeah, I bet he was on Judy's program If you listened to the Ripplinger encounter, I bet you that because she was on a different station

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Shaughnessy was on carrot. Yes. She was on KX eG. Yeah, and she is you recall after that episode

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Yeah, she did a she did a series on you. Oh, yeah called the public spanking of James. What? Yeah.

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Uh -huh. Yeah, that's that's What these folks are like? They won't debate you for for love their money, but they'll they'll

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They'll go after you. So let's see how text Mars responded to To that that challenge because James you are attacking the

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Word of God Also, because what you have done For example is name your ministry

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Alpha and Omega and yet in Revelation 1 1 some of the new versions

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Take out the word Alpha and Omega and now let me let me stop you right there just just for a second

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Because this is wonderful to be able to do this digitally We couldn't do this back then but but we can do it now let's listen to exactly what text

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Mars said again and Let's listen very carefully What reference does text

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Mars give ministry Alpha and Omega and yet in Revelation 1 1 some of the new versions

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Take out the word Alpha and Omega and now if you'll go to my website And of course, that's gonna be the joy of video is

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I will put this scan right there on the page Right so you can see it he just said

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Revelation 1 1 and That's what he wrote on The envelope, in fact,

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I had that letter with me that night in the studio in k -i -x -l Revelation 1 1 does not contain a textual variant relevant to Alpha and Omega Revelation 1 11 does and I had written to him and I had told him that and I had explained the variant to him had sent him the information

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Obviously text Mars wouldn't know how to understand the information I had sent to him

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He's never studied textual criticism and does not have the slightest interest in doing so So but notice it says he said right there.

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What did he say? Revelation 1 1 So we continue with what he says take out the word

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Alpha and Omega and yet you have the audacity To give your ministry that name and by the way

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Well, I just wanted to I just wanted to correct what you had just said you're confusing people

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It's not revelation text. It's not I'd like to answer your question James. Go ahead. He just won't stop talking

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You're being a researcher. I Received your treatise about Gail Rippling her book and I noticed you misspelled her name throughout it

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You can't spell her name, right? And all you had to do was call her up or call me or call

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Any one of a thousand bookstores that have her name now, let me just stop right there.

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This is another utter act of desperation the part of King James only us back in the 90s if you picked up an early edition of New Age Bible versions you would discover that on the front cover.

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It was written by G a Rippling her in Nowhere in that book.

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Are you told that what GA stands for? In fact nowhere in that book?

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Are you told that GA is a woman? It was clearly meant to hide both her gender

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As well as her actual first name because I haven't met too many guys named Gail I've there are a few but not too many

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So I heard I forget how but I believe it was on a radio station

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I heard her name was Gail Rippling her now. There are multiple ways to spell

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Gail G a Y le G a

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IL I Chose the same spelling that I was familiar with due to a relative of mine of G a

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Y le initially After we started putting out New Age Bible versions refuted

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It was pointed out to me that she spells at G a IL so I changed it So that's what he's talking about nowhere in her book.

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Does she ever actually provide it? But that's the level of argumentation have to come up with well.

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Well you misspelled it even though She didn't put in her book and tried to hide it, but you misspelled it.

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It's not G a Y le it's G IL see you're a terrible researcher wow there's there's there's the level of of Intellectual acumen being being put forth if we can't trust the fact that you can't even spell an author's name, right?

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How can we trust any other? Supposed scholar in it by the way I read your 40 page sniffle

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But it was it was full of errors, and I really think that you need to get down and read some books dr.

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Waits book doctor Fuller's book Riblinger's book excellent books, and they're much needed by Christians today.

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Well text might apply a few things first of all It's not Revelation 1 1 it's Revelation 1 11 that you're attempting to refer to there

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And I provided you a full response to that in the letter sir sir now. I'm sir. I'm gonna answer your question text

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I'm gonna answer your question now Revelation 1 11 not Revelation 1 1 and I explained that excuse me now catch that you can barely hear it

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But I'll play it for you again Listen very carefully to what he is saying because obviously he wasn't gonna

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Let me get a word in edgewise. He was not going to he's not gonna respond. He's just gonna.

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You know Just try to bulldoze his way through here, but listen to what he says

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Sir, no, I'm sir. I'm gonna answer your question text. I'm gonna answer your question now Revelation 1 11 not

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Revelation 1 1 and I explained that Excuse me, it's Revelation 1 11 That's why

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I said Revelation 1 1 1 Revelation 1 11 I mean that is the most bold -faced lie

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I have ever heard here calling in a radio station where they're recording this yeah

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And he knows that he sent me a Nasty letter he has written on the front

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Revelation 1 1 He knows he said Revelation 1 1 only a few minutes earlier

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And then when I pointed out to him, that's what I said relation 1 1 1 And he repeated twice that wasn't it that wasn't a misstatement on his part he's lying through his teeth

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Unrepentantly, I mean, it's just like wow Unbelievable and if you listen really really carefully,

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I don't know if you can really hear it The people in the control studio see we were in a fairly as actually

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Jesus I studio But then there's you know you've got the glass just sort of like we have here and rich is on the other side of the glass

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And you're not supposed to be able to hear what rich is saying and someday when we finally finish framing in the door here You won't hear what rich is saying?

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And anything else going on there, but that probably will be somewhere around 2012, but anyway

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Theirs was was actually finished, and so you couldn't all I remember is hearing something

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So is that loud and I look back and I see two feet in the air

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Shaking in the control control studio the guy is literally laying on the floor

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Laughing with his feet in the air it is so Ridiculous what

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Tex Meyers has just has just tried to pull off it was Absolutely hilarious it truly was so we continue on one one, and I explained that excuse me.

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It's revelation 111 Actually sir on the front of the last letter you sent me where you sent back my fax with red lighting on red excuse me

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I Excuse me. I'm part of in defense of faith and your text you would have to let

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James respond now you have to be quiet They're going to turn you down First of all

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I sent a letter. I'm sorry this man knows he's a liar. He knows he's dishonest

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He knows he's making it up as he goes along. It's so obvious Why how has anyone ever given this man a scintilla of credibility?

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I cannot believe it to doctor to text Mars explaining Responding to his letter to me

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He sent my fax back with red ink across it saying he didn't want any more my evil trash and interestingly enough

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He just tried to say he didn't say revelation 1 -1 the front of the envelope has revelation 1 -1

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Right here, I'll show it to you written on the front not 111 Secondly if I could finish responding to what he was saying

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When he says I attack the Bible no, I do not I love God's Word I preach God's Word a couple of you

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Dale were were there today as I as I opened God's Word and and Spoke that word.

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I love God's Word I do not attack it in any way shape or form But I do attack those who would attempt to limit

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God's Word to a 17th century Anglican translation And that just simply is Those the problems with what mr.

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Mars said and you'll notice he did not respond to my citation 2nd Timothy 2 24 through 26 to explain why he would identify someone as a

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Servant of Satan that is not how Christians are to discuss this issue I have respect for a person who can handle a discussion of this issue on a rational basis without resorting to names

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But mr. Mars obviously is not one of those individuals who can resort deal with this issue What he said about get thee behind me take up the cross

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Lord's Prayer and each of those things there are there are you know? We could have a good discussion on those things, but he's an error about many of the things that he said

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And the only thing I did not address at that point was the silliness of the assertion about Gail How to spell

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Gail G a while e or G a I oh So there you go. I I will never ever forget one one

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And I explained that excuse me. It's revelation 111 Wow If you ever ever thought there is any reason to believe anything text

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Mars had to say now you have very very good reason Not to do so eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number

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We'll either come back with your phone calls or some Jimmy Akin here on the dividing line. We'll be right back How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way, it's a journey to the

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Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

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In a straightforward and loving manner They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the

34:28

Bible's message about Homosexuality get your copy in the bookstore at a omen .org

34:43

And Welcome back to dividing line.

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I have no idea what's going on right now, but rich looks very suspicious, right? well before you go jumping into Jimmy Akin real quick, um,

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I did some work on an oldie but a goodie the other day and The conference on Rome has just been uploaded to the bookstore

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It's been first has been available in mp3. It's the first time it's been available on mp3

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It's not cheap compared to other mp3s. Well, how many sessions were there 13 and a half hours?

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Probably the reason one of the big things that I know 13 and a half hours from Catholic answers would cost you

35:34

Look out mortgage rates Anyway There's a lot of really good stuff in the conference on Rome and one of those and we've gotten a couple of Circumstances in channel lately where some

35:48

Roman Catholics are coming around and they're doing it Oh, there's 50 ,000 Protestant denominations and America alone, you know, and of course, that's just the

35:57

West Coast. No. Yeah anyway, but I bet you Steve Ray Doesn't do that anymore.

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At least I hope not and after the spanking he got Who knows but it's part of that Not only did he does he did

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Eric Svensson do some stuff on his website, but part of the conference on Rome I think that's where he kind of really was the first time he really publicly articulated

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How to break that down and where the problems are in that and so I just wanted to kind of point out that the conference on room number 489 mp3 is now available through the shopping cart or 89 good quality sound to it and It's been optimized for iPod.

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So I'm gonna iPod you want the sessions broken down all the data is in there and The tracks are broken down and sounds like a plan.

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All right, excellent. There's a free advertisement right there. Who do we charge for that? You okay, we'll charge you and that's that's what the conference on Rome We for we were trying to figure out what year that was we could not remember somewhere between 2001 2004

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I settled with 2003. Okay, that's a good guess. It may be completely wrong, but it's a good guess

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So yeah the conference on Rome that was myself Eric Svensson David King Rob's ints those are the four of us, right?

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So we did a number of days and 13 and a half hours A lot of a lot of time so they have one p3 in the bookstore and before we go to Jimmy Akin who may have gotten mentioned once twice there don't know

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Let's talk with Marcus. Hi Marcus. How you doing? Hello. Yes, sir. Hi.

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Are you doing good? That's good. I was my question basically was

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What do you think is the best tactic to show that the Book of Mormon and the

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Bible are incompatible? Well Hmm there are a number of different directions that you can go with that.

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I I have only a few times Utilized the

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Book of Mormon as a lead argument. It's never been one of my favorite Directions to go

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I'm not criticizing those who do But if you're in a situation where because of whatever

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The Book of Mormon is sort of front and center there are a couple of different ways you can go

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I would just simply make sure that you always see the refutation of any false scripture whether it's the

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LDS scriptures or any other group that you're dealing with as a means to an end and not as the goal itself unfortunately a lot of stuff that you'll find out in the net or in published format will

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Get confused on that and the refutation of that scripture itself becomes the goal rather than that being the means by which you then are able to make a

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Presentation of the truth in the place of that which you've now refuted. So when we speak to Mormons, I've always suggested to people

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That they are moving toward wanting to address who God is who Christ is and what salvation is

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Those are your three goals. And so I can use the Book of Mormon to go any one of those directions

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In other words, I can compare and contrast what the Book of Mormon teaches because when

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Joseph Smith writes the Book of Mormon in 1829 He has not yet begun to develop the concept of a plurality of gods

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And so if you look at Mosiah chapter 15, for example Joseph Smith enunciates what is classically in the context of upstate,

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New York at the beginning of the 19th century a modalistic understanding of the Trinity which Sadly many evangelicals even today would say the very same things that Joseph Smith said

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In the Book of Mormon in regards to confusing the Father and the Son And I can contrast however the statements of there being only one

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God With later LDS developments if for example, I want to Both address the

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Book of Mormon and the alleged prophet of Joseph Smith on my way to presenting the fact There's only one true

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God over against Joseph Smith's later development of the plurality of God theory I can contrast the

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Book of Mormon with the Book of Abraham at that point So Book of Abraham chapters 4 and 5 the gods the gods the gods the gods something along those lines if I want to do that I could also use the fact that the

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Book of Mormon has been changed Over 3 ,000 times and some of those were doctrinal changes specifically relevant to that same issue

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It's also very useful in discussing the doctrine of salvation That's probably where I have utilized the

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Book of Mormon more than in any of the Strictly theological discussions of the nature of God because as I said

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Joseph Smith did not develop What has become modern LDS theology in regards to nature of God at the time when he wrote the

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Book of Mormons So the Book of Mormon doesn't contain Any of that kind of plurality of God's exaltation to Godhood Priesthoods all the rest that stuff all that developed long after the

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Book of Mormon had been written already And that's where you have to go the Doctrine Covenants for great price and and later teachings of the church

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But the on the doctrine of salvation Joseph Smith was always confused on that subject from the very beginning and therefore you can utilize a number of texts

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Anybody who's witnessing to a Mormon has to be aware of Moroni chapter 10

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Because you're going to have it quoted to you very very very quickly Moroni chapter 10 verses 4 & 5

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If you've been given a copy of the Book of Mormon. It's probably already been marked for you so that you can you can read it and Ponder it and pray over it and so on and so forth

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But there you are told that if you would but pray with a sincere heart For those of you who have at least

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I think this is a 1981 edition. I have in my in my hands This is on page 529 And when you shall receive these things that exhort that you would ask

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God the Eternal Father name of Christ if these things are not True and if you shall ask the sincere heart with real intent having faith in Christ You will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the

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Holy Ghost by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things so this becomes the very foundation of the

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Mormon testimony and Anyone who deals with Mormons should be aware of that. I like to go the very same chapter

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And go to verse 32 of Moroni chapter 10, which is the next page over 531 which says yea come unto

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Christ and be perfected in him and deny yourselves of all ungodliness and If ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love

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God with all your might mind and strength Then is his grace sufficient for you that by his grace he may be perfect in Christ And if by the grace of God you're perfect in Christ you can and know why it's not the power of God now

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Note what it says deny yourself of all ungodliness love God perfectly then The grace of Christ will be sufficient for you

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And if you want a substantiation that that is exactly what Smith is saying if you have the the the full edition of the

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LDS Scriptures, I'm holding what's called a quad in my hand. It has both the King James Book of Mormon Dr.

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Jones Proyer Price in it if you'll go to the Bible dictionary which in the quad is is bound between the

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Bible and then The the LDS scriptures which are bound after it and you will look up the term grace

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Which comes after the harmony of the Gospels section specifically in this edition it is on page 697

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You will see that they will cite this very text and they will define what grace is for you and They will say it is through the grace

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Lord Jesus made possible by his atoning sacrifice that mankind will be raised in immortality Let me jump down divine grace is needed by every soul and consequence the fall of Adam and also because of man's weakness and shortcomings

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However grace cannot suffice the total effort in the part of the recipient hence the explanation and I was wrong

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It's second if I 25 23 they said site, which is another good one to use I use them both together It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do second

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Nephi 25 23 I was said to many a Mormon is by grace were saved in spite of all we've done and that not after all we can do

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But there they specifically will say that grace is a divine means of help or strength

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However, grace cannot suffice the total effort on the part of the recipients and of course at that point

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I'm going to ask any Mormon. Have you given total effort and Any honest

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Mormon and certainly a Mormon whose heart the Holy Spirit of God is bringing conviction of sin Is not going to be able to answer that so I like to provide doctrinal contrast between the

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Book of Mormon and the Bible Because that allows me to then go into the Bible and make a gospel presentation

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There are all sorts of other things you can get into I mean certainly you can get into archaeology in the Book of Mormon that is a fatal flaw

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Very very difficult area for Mormons to deal with and and things like that, but it requires of you a fair amount of off -the -top -of -your -head

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Information and an ability in a fairly brief period of time to communicate some what can sometimes be some fairly complex

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Information and so that's probably a little bit better for long -term relationships

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Written dialogues things like that than it is sitting on the airplane sitting on the bus

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Shorter type of things obviously the kind of contact you're having with the Mormons going to determine the depth to which you're going to go in the conversation

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And so you can go into those areas as well And draw a contrast at that point between for example the the fact that we can examine the

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Bible Archaeologically we can't do that with the Book of Mormon because it never took place I see.

46:03

Thank you. That makes good sense. Did I give you more than you needed or hopefully I gave you enough? Okay Obviously I've written a book

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Letters to a Mormon elder that goes into this and of course we continue to highly recommend the information of Utah Lighthouse ministry

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Gerald and Sandra Tanner Gerald went to be at the Lord last year But Sandra is still pressing on and so you'd find a tremendous amount of information from Utah Lighthouse ministry, okay?

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Okay, all right. Thank you very much. God bless Alrighty so from the

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Book of Mormon, and that's a big book. I mean That's a big quad. That's if you've never seen a quad it is especially the full -size quads

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They are massive. They are really really really large, but I promised you some Jimmy Akin And so what we have here is

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Jimmy Akin answering a question and Catholic answers live about predestination, and it's interesting

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Again, I don't really have any at this point Specific criticisms,

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I think he gives a pretty accurate from a Roman Catholic perspective Definition on this subject.

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I think the reason I want to share it is so many of those non -catholics and especially anti Catholics in the sense of those who are virulent

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And into you know distributing jack -chick literature And who just you know find

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Rome behind every conspiracy Also tend to be anti -Calvinist and they tend to argue in the exact same way

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This was the point that I brought up to Dave Hunt On that radio program so long ago that on the issue of grace and the will of man

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He agrees with Rome against the Reformers, and that was when of course he said well

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I don't really never read performers don't hang about him You know and then six months later knew more about anybody else did but anyway

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Here is here is the the question in fact. I'm going to skip right to Jimmy Akin's response lady calls in asking about it, and he gets to it, okay?

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Okay, well if you can't hang on rather than hanging up Because we may need to clarify something okay, okay number one scripture uses the term predestination

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So all groups of Christians Catholics included believe in predestination period the end Don't need to fight about that the question is what is

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Predestination, what's the nature of predestination? And this is something that they may be assuming that just because the word predestination is in there that that means a particular

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Understanding of predestination is required, and that's not the case there are different ways to understand the concept

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Now let me just pause them just for a moment because I will never forget standing in the

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Catholic answers office in San Diego back in I believe it was 1991

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I Believe it was January of 1991 and I was standing with Patrick Madrid and Jerry matics

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So would that have would that have been 1991 yeah, I think Jerry was yeah, Jerry was there. Yeah, Jerry was there

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This is before he left this would been early January of 91 and listening to Matics arguing with Madrid on the subject of predestination election because you see while Rome can give you dogmatic certainty of The bodily assumption of Mary Rome cannot answer the question of predestination election

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So she can dogmatically tell you about stuff that the Bible writers knew nothing about whatsoever But when it comes to actually answering the questions as to what the

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Bible writers were talking about she's like You know this person said this and that person's that and the

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Augustinian say this and the Bennington say that and the Franciscan say this and and you know the

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Jesuits used to say that but now they say this and and You're some people believe this and some people believe that and I've always found it fascinating That people can have absolute certainty on And Protestants do this.

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Okay, let's face it There are certain Protestant dominations that have come to absolute dogmatic certainty on eschatological things.

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For example or absolute dogmatic certainty on on on Behavioral issues that are not actually clearly addressed in Scripture But when it comes to whether God saves perfectly or not, they're like well, you know

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Not really sure and it's always struck me that Rome with all her infallible authority

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Can't quite figure this one out either There are certain options that are legitimate for Catholics in terms of how to understand predestination

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There are other options that are not legitimate if by predestination You mean

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God knows in advance? What your final fate is going to be? Well, that's true because God sees all of time all at once and it's all immediately present to him and so he sees the beginning of your life just as much as he sees the end of your life and He knows what's happening at both of those points.

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That doesn't mean he's causing Now listen carefully here because I've had this conversation on the radio before with George Bryson and There's a rather famous Illustration that tends to get used this point and I'm gonna have to say that Jimmy Akins illustration is considerably better actually

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Than a rather famous illustration used by others at this point But they're all trying to make the same point you to make particular choices in your life

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In fact, you know, you can have a perspective on something without causing it to happen

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I mean, this is a common example I give suppose I'm standing on the top of a building and I can see at the

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Intersection below that there are two cars approaching from different directions that are going to hit each other

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You know, neither one of them is going to be able to stop in time and they're just gonna hit in the intersection Well, I can see that's gonna happen, but that doesn't mean

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I caused it to happen And you know, it was the choices of the drivers Now again, that's a whole lot better than other illustrations about certain pop stars who divorced in the past, you know,

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I mean Because that one actually allows for seeing what's gonna happen before it happens

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Rather than just passively taking in knowledge of historical facts and saying well, you can know that but doesn't mean you caused it here

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You see it is going to happen before it happens, but your knowledge of it happening before it happens doesn't cause it to happen

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So it's a much better illustration, but it still suffers from the same fatal flaw and that is

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God is left standing up in space looking down at events going. Oh, look at oh, oh, man.

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Oh, it's terrible Wish there was something I could have done about that. I wonder if I can bring something good out of this You you have this this passive taking in of knowledge

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Based upon the observation of events in time as being the basis of God's knowledge, and that's not the basis of God's knowledge

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You're still stuck with the exact same problems Even though you've actually used a little bit better of an illustration that that are gonna cause the accident not me seeing it

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So the fact that that God knows the future doesn't mean God is causing us to make the choices that are occurring

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So right there your friends if they're saying well because he knows what's gonna happen

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Therefore he's causing it all that's a logical fallacy. That's simply not true Now he is

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Capable of stopping things from happening. So he at least allows what's going to happen

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But again, that's not the same thing as causing it to happen on the other hand We know

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God is active in the world. Of course, if you have the idea that what God does always has a purpose you actually just sort of shot yourself in the foot at that point because why would he allow what he has a purpose for allowing it and If he's actually working out his purpose, then doesn't that mean that his purpose will be established and yet?

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Well, you see the problem so he does cause some things to happen for example, he gives people the grace that they need in order to come to him and if people follow up on that grace if they receive it and they come to him and they'll be saved and That's one understanding of how predestination operates that now notice that's one but there's more

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God You know Predestines to salvation those who he sees will freely cooperate with the grace.

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He offers them another Understanding that has found traction in Catholic circles is that God not only gives them grace to come to him

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But he gives them a kind of grace that will infallibly result in them coming to him

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And so and he and according to one understanding he does that just based on his own choice

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He determines I'm going to make sure I save this person here come the Augustinians other people who don't get that grace

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He's not saying I want to damn this person But he's allowing their free will to result in them not coming to him

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Even though he could have given him that grace that would have resulted in their coming to him And that still leaves open the question about the quote -unquote free will the people he gives the grace to that assures

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They will come to him and blah blah whereas others on this understanding He indicate he chooses to specifically save Then there's another understanding of predestination that says well if you're in based on some language in the

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New Testament if you're in Christ You're predestined and so as long as you maintain a saving connection with Christ you are among the predestined.

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That's the old Christ is the elect one and as long as you're in him then you're elect to which

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I've also heard rather popularly presented amongst Protestants who Don't realize how much they're like people that they don't want to actually be like You're predestined to go to heaven as long as you remain in a saving connection with Christ But if you cease to be in a saving connection with Christ because you choose not to be well

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Then you're no longer among the predestined and so there are a number of different opportunities here not opportunities

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There are a number of different options for how to understand the nature of predestination It's not just one and so you can't assume

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Based on a single passage of Scripture or a single mode of thought in Scripture that you've necessarily understood everything

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There is on this topic It's a rather subtle and difficult topic and we should tread with significant caution when trying to piece together the different strands of thought on it because they don't all

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Necessarily point in the same direction and the best way to harmonize them is not always clear How's that Jennifer?

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That's better We kind of went in that is not what she was looking for.

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I can guarantee you It's not as clear clear as you have held it but but the answer we got from this one gentleman was continually well if God knows my end and I'm not going to be with him in eternity and he created me.

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Anyway, he has destined me to hell. No, that's clearly false Okay. I mean suppose

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I'm the father of the two reckless drivers who are careening towards each other and Well, I didn't

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I didn't cause their decisions to lead to the accident I may be aware of it.

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I may have been their father So in some sense, I'm their origin, but I'm not causing those choices in the same way

57:46

If God is our origin and he sees our end at the same time

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He's not causing us to do the things we do. We're freely choose I Sort of fell apart there at the end just a little bit even if I'm the father of the two drivers in the car and What God is predestined is that anyone outside of Christ who is a sinner and Is under his just and holy wrath will receive that wrath.

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I mean, there's no injustice here You either receive the wrath that is due due to you or Christ bears that penalty in your place

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Only two options that there are well, anyway, I thought it was a rather interesting explanation to the question again illustrated the fact that well

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That's a rather major dividing line and speaking of dividing line. We will be back again

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Lord willing on Tuesday Look forward to seeing you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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