Church, Part 6 of What We Believe, Part 42

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Yeah, I think you're right you can't say that there is enough scripture to say that any organized denomination is absolutely heresy or Demands it either way.

I don't think there's enough scriptural reference pointing to that There is a lot of scriptural reference pointing to the need

That every church be autonomous every local church Welcome to the rap report with your host

Andrew Rapoport where we provide biblical interpretation and application This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the

Christian podcast community for more content or to request a speaker for your church Go to striving for eternity .org

Welcome to another edition of the rap report I am your host Andrew rap report the executive director of striving for eternity and the

Christian podcast community of which this Podcast is a proud member of the 50 -plus vetted podcasts

This minute this podcast is about providing biblical interpretations and applications for the

Christian life Today, we are going to be joined again by Wade Lentz. He is the he is well he is a pastor, but he is on the

Patriot pastors podcast and part of the Christian podcast community and we are going to continue our study of looking at the church looking at the doctrinal statement of striving for eternity and The goal of this is well several goals.

One is to help you understand when you read a doctrinal statement There's a lot more behind it than what's stated there and as we've gone through this

We have seen there's been a lot of things that are not stated in there by stating something so we try to in doctrinal states to be really concise and If you want to follow along go to striving for eternity org

Striving for eternity org you click on the about section up top click on what we believe scroll down to where you see church expand that section and You will see this part we're gonna start with the paragraph we're gonna do today starts with the local church is autonomous

So that will be what we're gonna cover today Wade I I will admit, you know right after we get done recording.

I did last week. I record we record we Talked about the fact that I am known unfortunately for getting things stuck in my head and I stay consistent with it.

And as soon as the show is over you were like, hey, yeah because we I called you Wade throughout the episode until the end when

I mentioned your co -host Harold and Then twice you're like hey twice at the end of the show you called me

Harold you might want to edit that out and I forgot to edit that out when I was doing the editing and When I listened to it when it went live

I went you know what it's actually kind of fitting because in the show I said That I do these things and I stay consistent with it when that happens, so there you go perfect example of it

Hey, like I told you I've been called worse Much worse than that.

Yeah, what does Harold think about that? Well for folks who didn't pick up last week's

I will remind you that you could go back and if you want to get the whole series If you followed that what

I showed you on striving turn org under the about section and what we believe at the bottom of that is a

Area where you can see what what we believe podcast series and You would be able to get the full series there starting from episode 1 if you want to get the whole thing

Which I do recommend you do and if you do that You get last week's

Which is now up there, so it really good to just get these in The whole series in context, so it'd be good to do

I will ask just Wade really quick if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to folks who may not have been here for last week

Yes, my name is Wade Lentz, and I'm a pastor at a barrel Baptist Church in Bologna, Arkansas Central, Arkansas And I have been their pastor for almost 11 years next month.

It will be 11 years I've been married for 27 years and have four boys that range in age from 21 down to 9 years old so I stay pretty busy

So you've been at this parenting thing for a while for a while And And that town is one of the biggest towns in Arkansas, right,

I mean you got like millions of no Yeah, not not not close. It's more like hundreds of thousands hundreds of thousands

No, no if you can all the cows and the goats yes Yeah, my daughter went to Cedarville University, and I know from when

I was on You know in a secular school we used to get locals that would come on to campus and there was always issues of Between locals and some of the girls and things like that and so I remember when my daughter went to Cedarville I asked hey is you know you have issues with like locals coming on to campus and the guy laughs at me and says sir

Where we we're in the farm country here in Cedarville the only thing that's wandering on to campus is a cow or two

He's like your daughter is gonna be fine, okay Yeah, so if you wouldn't mind reading this paragraph that we got before us and we can start

Breaking this up and looking at it. I sure will It says the local church is autonomous free from any external authority or control

With the rights of self -government and freedom from the interference of any hierarchy of individuals or organizations

It is scriptural for true churches to cooperate with each other for the presentation and propagation of the faith each local church however through its elders and their interpretation and Application of scripture should be the sole judge of the measure and method of its cooperation

The elders should determine all other matters of membership policy discipline benevolence and government as well

And it lists several scripture references Now we are starting off on this one with something that many who are listening are gonna.

Just a media go wait. I disagree That's okay, this is our doctrinal statement, right so There we have within Christianity Something we know is denominations.

I don't even know wait. Are you are you part of a denomination? Your church not an organized denomination.

We are a Baptist Church, but not a part of the Southern Baptist Convention or any

Organized denomination such as that okay, and that's and see that the

Even the because as Baptist Baptist typically if the Baptist history is to be non -denominational

So when you mentioned the Southern Baptists even the Southern Baptist Convention Isn't really a denomination the way people think it is it's it's really a loose affiliation

Yeah, it's a convention of churches correct So it's not that so the

SBC Southern Baptist Convention Doesn't have any authority over the individual

Baptist churches that are part of them Exactly, but they offer Some help when and you have other groups.

I I know of there's a What I forget what fire stands for Something something independent reformed evangelicals

I just forget what the a fellowship fellowship fellowship of Of Independent, I think

I'm getting it right if I'm not don't shoot me, but I think it's a fellowship of independent reformed evangelicals

So that's something where you have people who are it's a loose affiliation.

There's no authority, but as I'm working with a Church discipline situation within one of those churches

It's I'm reaching out to other fire pastors to help with it And so that is something where they we can

You can have coordination together working together for the furthering of the gospel right and so that's something that That we're gonna get into so so I'm making the statement that my belief

Okay is to be non -denominational Striving for eternity's belief would be non -denominational

This I'm I am not saying if you're in a Presbyterian Church where there's a you know a denomination

I'm not saying that that structure is Shall we say unbiblical for you?

Mm -hmm. I just don't see it in Scripture What I see do I see a benefit to denominations?

Yes And I think that's where some of these things like the Southern Baptist Convention they try to balance that out

There's there's an advantage to pooling resources together to be able to Get insurance for example, or you know like insurance could be very costly for a church, but if you have 10 ,000 churches all

Paying for insurance through one organization You can save that money so there's things like that there's protections legally, you know, if if Wait, if the government decided to come down and come after you and sue your church

You probably wouldn't have many funds to be able to so, you know hire lawyers to protect against the federal government's lawsuit right, but the

Southern Baptist Convention could right so so there's there are benefits to that and So what

I'm saying in this when we put this out here we're saying the local church is autonomous free from any external authority or control with the right to self -govern and freedom from interference of any hierarchical or individual or organization

That's a mouthful. I get that essentially what it says is that I believe when

I look at Scripture that the Scriptures teach that each church is run by the pastors of that church and that would be a view that I would hold to I Get that if you're in a nation, you don't hold to it totally get it and and that's fine

I'm stating what we believe so I just I I guess I'm just Trying to focus on that because I know that a lot of people will get

Upset if you if they're denominational and you're trying if they're hearing me say that I don't believe in that Right, right.

I'm saying I don't believe in it. I'm not saying what you have to believe. This is different then

You know if I was to say you have to believe this this is what Christianity believes

I think the structure of the leadership of a church or any outside organizations such a denomination

I Would put in a tertiary issue. So we have primary issues.

These are Beliefs things I'm gonna die for Jesus is God We have secondary issues things that we could debate over Whether you believe the gifts continue or not.

It's not a matter of salvation I'm not gonna split, you know, I'm not gonna separate fellowship over it

Some things I might separate like it, you know, it depends in the secondary issues It might get close enough, but the tertiary issues are things like this where we don't break fellowship

It's it's it's not really a big deal and mostly because I don't think

That there's enough scripture Wade may agree or disagree with me on this. I don't think there's enough scripture to support denominations or non -denomination,

I Think that we have to infer it There's nothing really there that we could see now the verse that I put in the doctrinal statement is

Titus 1 5 Which reads for this reason I left you in Crete that you would set in order what remains and Appoint elders in every city as I directed you.

So what we see here is that Paul is kind of saying hey, I left you in Crete so you can run the church

He doesn't have the authority to tell him how to run the church anymore, you know, cuz he's left that church and now

Titus is there. I don't you know, wait, we didn't talk beforehand

So I don't you know, I don't know your position, but I see you're non -denominational. So you may agree But this is something that There is lots of discussion on Absolutely, what are your thoughts when it comes to denominations or non -denominational

Yeah, I think you're right. You can't say that there is enough scripture to say that any organized denomination is absolutely

Heresy or Demands it either way. I don't think there's enough scriptural reference pointing to that There is a lot of scriptural

Reference pointing to the need That every church be autonomous every local church.

I think you and I would agree. That's organized denominations that have a hierarchical

Hierarchical type of Hold on churches. We would say yes, that is unbiblical

For instance local church can't dictate who their pastor is going to be that is

Chosen for them they cannot choose church governance You know that's chosen for them.

I think there's a lot of scripture to say that that's an overreach You don't find that in scripture

Yes, Paul Told Titus and in even in the book of Acts is another reference that you mentioned in the

Statement of Faith They went in Paul and Silas in every city Appointing elders.

Well, why did they appoint elders? Well elders are overseers Pastors, so it's emphasizing the local churches need for self governance.

Okay, and And of course these elders and pastors would be responsible for the spiritual oversight and the governance of their own congregation and so church autonomy,

I Believe reflects the biblical model where each local congregation operates independently free from external authority or control and So you and I would definitely agree on on that And you know,

I mentioned the benefits of a denomination maybe I should explain some of the

The negatives of it you because you've just mentioned some you mentioned the fact that you can have a denomination that chooses the pastor

Like it or not. They some Presbyterian churches the denomination will choose a pastor sometimes they rotate them around I I knew of one

Presbyterian Church where they really liked the pastor and He moved to the area really liked the area and didn't want to leave the area and so when the denomination

Decided to move him out he decided to leave the denomination and Stay in the area.

And Then what ended up happening was all the people said let's start a church And so the denomination put someone new in but they lost

You know two -thirds three -quarters of the church to the guy that they enjoyed they wanted to shepherd them and so But I I know of a case that you know, like what sounds good we what could be a net a positive benefit a benefit can also be a negative in the sense that For some churches, they can't afford a building for many churches church plants and so a denomination comes in Southern Baptist do us others do us

Lutherans do it and they they will come in and Buy the building because they have the resources but who owns the building the denomination does so there was a church that I spoke at a

Lutheran Church up in New York City when their denomination went and Accepted homosexuality.

They said that's it. We're done with you. We're leaving and The response they got from the

Lutheran denomination was well, we're taking your building It's our building.

So either you stay with us or We're taking the building and in New York City.

I mean that building was like eight million dollar building Wow but the thing is is that they had that bill the reason it was the building was affordable back then is

Because it was bought many many years ago, but it was actually bought not by the

Lutherans It was a different church that became a Lutheran Church. And so they had the deed to the building

So in their case, they were able to leave that denomination and find a better Lutheran denomination

But I've seen that where with Southern Baptists Lutherans Presbyterians where you have the denomination will hold it over them and and that's

What this statements really focusing on is that the the authority of the local church should be the local church

Mm -hmm The model and if anyone if you if you listen to the series I did on this podcast called what is a pastor

That went through and I explained the problems I think we have with the hiring of pastors by hiring someone from outside the church

Very few people get the privilege of pastoring the church their their home church

Mm -hmm It's something where I mean, I know of two men that have only been a member of one church their entire life

Wow And they're the pet they're the preaching pastor of the church Hmm, that's rare, but that's the biblical model, right?

And so if you think about the first century way of doing it We look at this and The the fact is is that This is saying that the local church should hire their pastor their pastors should run the church and Everything should be local.

Mm -hmm Yes Yes, very interesting. You talked about the

Lutherans and and that particular church in New York City This was new to me when the

United Methodist Church just recently as a denomination chose to allow

Homosexuals and transgenders to to pastor churches and all of that. And of course that sent waves throughout the

United Methodist Church, I Did not know That like the Lutherans you talked about the

United Methodist denomination actually owns the church buildings Yes, so all these churches around here these small country churches around here

Who they just could not go with that denominational decision that is now

Pushed on their little local church. They said well, we just want to pull out and The United Methodist said okay you can do that, but we're gonna

You know take over the church and any money that's in the church is ours now that is crooked and And that is horrible and we would have absolutely said there is no biblical

Scriptural references to back that up whatsoever. And that is an abuse of denominational power

Yeah, and that's where Why you see some of these denominations that they they keep the the members

Because People are like well, we're gonna disagree with them, but we just can't leave them

I mean, I would think that they can't take the money in the bank unless That was set up and I would hope that no one would do that, but buildings are expensive

Right. So the idea though, and I just want folks to understand as we discuss the church

The idea at least we have at Striving Fraternity is that the local church is where the authority is

So you you can't really have some external we don't believe that you should have some external organization that can come in and Make demands on the church unless the church submits that right?

I'm working with a church where the it's it's it's two churches and so What I've asked is that if we're if I'm gonna act as a mediator between the two that both churches involved will submit to what

I and the group that is put together to Investigate and and get the facts what to what we say

Because otherwise it becomes just well then there's no sense in us coming in spending all the time to investigate who's right or what happened here and because then it's just There's no, okay.

We we say this and then nothing happens. So this sort of has to be In that case, they would have to submit to the accountability, right?

so one side said yes, the other side said no, so probably won't happen right because if if You need to have that now

That's on a very rare case. We had that once in my first church where the church we came from There was a big split over the issue of divorce

The pastor at the time had a position no divorce for any reason

Not even prior to salvation and so a bunch of people who had been divorced prior to salvation some that got divorced as Christians People who wanted who had come got saved divorced before Salvation but wanted to get remarried they had issues with it

They didn't handle it well and my pastor and I wasn't I was a deacon at the time not a pastor so my pastor and the two other pastors of my church went there between the two sides and That that church gave over the authority to this three -person panel

To to submit to now that is something you can do But that's a choice of who the local church

So even that is the idea that the local church is giving that authority for a short time

Yes, right because I think it's key to to remember that every church every pastor

Has to submit themselves under the headship of Jesus Christ who is the head of the church

Exactly. It is not a denominational board. It is not some type of outside Denominational organization that has authority did to dictate

Certain doctrines or disciplines within the within the church the church belongs to Christ Colossians 118 says and he

Christ is the head of the body the church and Each local church answers directly to Christ as the head not to any external human authority

Bottom line and that's the point right there what you just said, that's the point because The idea the model we see in Scripture is

The the local church who knows the people knows the issues that they should deal with things Mm -hmm.

Now were there times that they submitted? Yes acts chapter 15 We we see

Two sides disagreeing they come to James in Jerusalem. They have a council and everyone submits to the to the council

Mm -hmm. Now some will say see that's a denomination. Well, we saw that council that occurred once right?

So I would think that can happen for temporary things. That's just a position that we take at striving fraternity

Have we had people at striving fraternity who are part of denominations? maybe Maybe volunteers or I don't think

I don't know if any of our speakers maybe maybe the Southern Baptists, but they don't have the but that's not one That has the external authority

So so we we are saying and Even if you're part of denomination, these are just things to think about think through Mm -hmm.

There's pluses and minuses to each of them pros and cons, whatever you however you want to look at it, and I think that Like how the

Southern Baptists and a loose affiliation of fellowship like that, I think that works

It can work. Yes. Yeah. Yeah can work. It depends You know because well you bring up right the

Southern Baptist Convention has become very political. It's because of all that money they raise Yes, and now they start taking that money and doing things where people like no, that's not good

And they start going liberal and yet so it you don't people don't want to be associated with it And so a bunch of churches have left there our church was established in 1889 and this year we're celebrating a hundred and thirty -five years of ministry for a hundred and Twenty -five years of our church's existence.

It was a Southern Baptist Church up until ten years ago but due to So much what

I felt like as liberalism and due to So many decisions that the

SBC was making I felt like we could no longer in good conscience continue to support the

SBC The churches that they were starting Were churches that I would never recommend our church members to attend they were just If you

I don't know how familiar you are with the North American Mission Board and all that, but it's just horrible

There's no accountability. They say that they are accountable to the local church, but they're not

And when the local church tries to hold them accountable, they say well, we don't have to divulge that information

So for all those reasons and much much more We we pulled out of the

SPC and I tell people We did not leave the SPC the

SPC left us and many churches like ours And and that was a sad departure because I was raised in the

SPC Pastored many years in the SPC and for us to pull out it was a difficult time but The Lord has blessed that yeah, and There is also

Realistically, you're bringing it up is the emotional tie to the SPC Then there's a lot of churches that I know a pastor wanted to pull out of the

SPC But he's like just emotionally that I got people that are not gonna accept it They'll leave the church over that and they will and that shouldn't be like we we shouldn't be leaving a church over that We you know, unless unless it's like hey, we're going to a liberal denomination correct, but the issue that we have is that these things

Should be run within the church. That's that's the idea We're trying to convey now the next part that we have here is really we've kind of mentioned we

I say here It is scriptural and true for is scriptural for true churches to incorporate with each other for the presentation and propagation of the faith now this is a little bit of biblical

Ecclesiastes Biblical separation within the church. We don't want to work with I'm not going to work with the

Catholic Church to End abortion so if I go to an abortion mill and I'm outside and there's the

Catholics and they want to pray and do their rosary and I go there and they want to team up on something together because they see me there

Well when I'm at that place preaching the gospel to the people inside to save their child not abort their child.

So you understand What they're actually doing is killing a human being I'm also there for the

Catholics who are doing the rosary For them to know they need to get saved as well

Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, so I we have to pick and choose now what defines a true church well

If you heard the first sentence, you're gonna know the answer the local church is gonna decide

What that local church thinks is the true church? Mm -hmm, right. There's some churches that I think if you don't use the

King James Bible, you're not a true church. I Wouldn't hold to that position. I could work with a church that uses the

King James I could use work with a church that uses the New American Standard Yes But if they can't well what defines a true church for them is the

King James Bible I don't think you can support that biblically, but they think they can maybe you know But the idea here is it's within the local church to work with others this is where the fellowships help

I'm gonna be recording apologetics live tonight and One of the questions that came in that we were asked and that I may end up answering is you know

Duh, you know doctrine does divide or doctrine divides So should we ignore doctrine and the answer is no because just as it divides it also unifies

Mm -hmm And so we have to recognize that as well Mm -hmm.

So so we should we should work with other churches of like faith and practice

Absolutely. Yeah, and that that's uh, I Local churches because they're too busy competing with with one another, right?

They see the other Baptist Church down the road as oh, wow they have more people than we do and if we work together with them on some type of a mission project or some type of a benevolence project and we may

Get other prospects to join that church instead of our church But it's very important The reason why we can cooperate one with another as far as local churches is because we're on the same team, correct, right?

We have the same head. That is Jesus Christ and we should look at one another as sister churches and so it's sad that so many churches have this competitive spirit against one another and that keeps

Them from working together, which is really sad. We see so many scripture references such as in Philippians Where Paul praises the

Philippian Church for their fellowship in the in the gospel from the first day until now

He tells them and you mentioned in Acts chapter 15 We see an example of churches working together to address certain doctrinal disputes

So you have it in in? ingrained in Scripture where it is good to do that, but in today's

American churches We have this mindset we can't work together with the church down the road because It's gonna we make we might lose some of our members to that church and so forth

Have you noticed that as well? Well even more so is The the point you first mentioned not so much

We might help that church grow and prospects to go to that church. I find that when

I first started I was striving for eternity and we used to try to do these conferences that to Basically get people to come in for a conference train them to evangelize take them out on the streets.

I Could not get churches to come together Right because they were it wasn't they were afraid that church would be bigger and prospects will go there

They were afraid my people will go there Mm -hmm. And and part of this this goes back to something you said and I actually was thinking you were gonna say it but Christ is the head of the church

Right. It's not our church pastors We are the the stewards.

We are the those the we're still sheep. I used to have a pastor He goes he'd always say me

Andrew. That's why they're sheep and we're the shepherds and I'm one day I just was like, you know, don't forget we're sheep too.

He did not like that. And so Christ is the head of the church, right?

And if Christ wants to grow the church down the street and not our church

Well, God has given us who he wants us to shepherd Mm -hmm.

Yes, and it's it's not someone else's responsibility to shepherd them It's ours and we shouldn't worry about the people that are going to some other church

But there is this Territorialism within the local churches and that's why some churches will work with churches far away

Mm -hmm. You know, I was just out in Arizona and I spoke at a church for one of the other podcasters and Christian podcast community

Dominic Grimaldi He's in Arizona. And so I was coming in to speak at his church.

Well, he happens to To have another church That is like faith and practice in the area by a friend of mine

Gabe Hughes And so he said hey, look, why don't we do would you know? Dominic was gonna have me preaching to say would you be open to doing a

Sunday night so we can get both churches together and I'm like sure You know here

Dominic opens his buildings because they got a bigger building so that the the you know

Gabe's church, which has a homeschool co -op can meet Well, that is working together and they're not worried.

Oh, you know, we're gonna lose people to that other church They're right. They're working together where they can and they know they're there.

They're their own congregations Yes, you know, and you know Jeff Jeff Johnson in Conway, Arkansas Just right down the road from me pastor

Jeff Johnson Chris Bible Church he was going to be hosting a Social justice conference back in 2021

Tom Askew was going to speak Bodie Bockham Dr. Owen Strand many of the the guys that you would recognize and know well

Jeff at the time at Grace Bible Church. They had a very small sanctuary. And so he called me up and said hey, by the way

Would you and your church be willing to to host this conference just allow us to use the building and I said man, absolutely

And and so that that happened they were able to come and we were able they were able to use our facility

And that's a good example of cooperating together, correct? for the sake of the gospel

Man and we I really wish there was more of that. Well, I think part of this is And this is totally off topic

But thanks for the rabbit trail Wade The the the thing is is that there's a big difference between ministry and platform building and many many men are

Platform building. Yes, they're not doing ministry. They are do it.

Well, I'll give a clear example You know, Mark Driscoll There I did it.

I just named a name now. Everyone's gonna be upset with me. Yeah, Mark Driscoll has a history and you could go listen to the podcast on the rise and fall of Mars Church and They go through all this people don't have any inside that know and but you also see it in how he does things he does things he plans things for effect and It's it's to get the attention.

It's you know, he does things that to shock people but You know, he'll stand up and pretend he's all offended at some guy that you know took his shirt off at a church

But he's mentioning it's a Jezebel spirit all to promote his book that came out the next day Right on the

Jezebel spirit, right? So it's it's planned stuff. That is platform building you know, he came to Shepherds conference when they did the strange fire conference and They didn't want

His him handing out his books. He was handing out a book to everybody Uninvited he came and security wasn't gonna allow him to do it.

So what Driscoll does is say? Well, look, I brought these books you have them. They're like, well, we're just gonna throw them out

He goes no, no, no, I want you to have him it's my gift to you and there's there's a video recording of that But then he goes on Twitter as as they're taking the books and saying all my books have been confiscated by them

Right, and and so that that's an a clear lie, but it's for platform.

It's it's to build the platform that's not ministry and It's one of the reasons

I've never wanted to be a big ministry I I prefer being small not really known

Because I never want that temptation of we have to grow and keep growing and keep keep the money coming in Right, right

That that's the issue. So Thanks for the rabbit trail, you know Yeah, I think

I think the you know the reason That you probably go on rabbit trails.

It's not because you like rabbit hunting. I Don't think I I believe I could be wrong.

I believe the real reason is, you know, it is Almost, you know six o 'clock in the evening my time when we're recording

You've been up for a while and and my guess is you know I do a nice cold plunge and that keeps me wide awake and alert

I think the problem is you just didn't you run out of coffee man. It's that's it

You you just you need a good cup of coffee That is the reason you do on rabbit trails because your mind is just not as quick I would say jump into a you know bath of 50 degree water

It'll wake you up better than a cup of coffee. But since most people are like that's nuts What you should do

Wade is go to striving for turning org slash coffee Get a cup of good squirrely

Joe's coffee Nice hand -roasted I get the the beans sent to me because yes

I actually do have the coffee, but I don't need it to stay awake It's cold plunge will take care of staying awake, but I just love the coffee.

So nice family run business Christian family run

I should say so all of the the beans are roasted there and freshly picked so that they roast them and put them in those bags so you can get a

Wonderful cup of coffee so you could be alert Wade and not doing all these rabbit trails

Because if you don't get that coffee, I mean we're gonna end up needing to send you to my pillow to get a pillow and Get a good sleep then

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Apologetics live podcast. It's like your podcast cost me a lot of money I'm like, how did my podcast cost you money and he pulls out a my pillow

And I was like, okay now I understand that was you who bought it. Okay So if you want to get yourself a good cup of coffee go to my go to striking fraternity org slash coffee

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Sir and get back to the doctor So finishing up this says this each local church, however

So however referring back to the fact that we should work together however through the elders of and their interpretation and application of scripture should be the sole judge and measure and method of its cooperation now this one passage or sentence kind of bothers some people

Because they think well, why is it the pastor should have now is there pastoral abuse in churches

Wade? What do you think? Absolutely, there is yeah. Yes, and and unfortunately for you and I as Baptists because of our non -denominational stance it is typically

Non -denominational Baptists the independent Baptists that end up dealing with more church abuse

So again, you wanted a benefit maybe of some denomination do other denominations have it?

Yeah they can But the whole purpose of the denomination is that so at the church the church could go to someone

To come in and have authority over the the pastor if he's out of the line but in an independent church

Can't do that. So if you have an abusive pastor this becomes a problem Yes, and this goes back to the podcast

I did on what is a pastor about the qualifications of a pastor because all of those qualifications are about his character and Yet, what do we do?

We hire pastors based on popularity and how well they preach Mm -hmm.

We don't give enough time to know their character. That's right That's why it should be done within the church where you know the character

And so if you know the character of the now I will say Just in case anyone's thinking if you're in the audience going.

Oh, yeah, Andrew Well, you've been a pastor of a couple churches. Did you get hired from outside? No, I didn't

In every church that I pastored I was in that body Before I became the preaching pastor.

Hmm so they knew my character and That is why they hired me and So as we we look at that that is something we have to recognize that this goes back to the character issue

Okay, the pastor has to be able to be confronted as well Mm -hmm now.

Yeah with this The issue the issue that we see here though is the local church

Authority Should be the pastors they should the pastors should be qualified if the pastors are qualified What we have is men who are qualified and equipped to interpret scripture rightly that is the the the judge of the measure and the method of cooperation with these other churches so yes there is a

Doctrinal statement is gonna bring the unity of the church We all agree this is the way so either pastor has to submit to that as well

I just heard of a church unfortunately this week where the pastor was lying to the other elders to the congregation all of the elders and two -thirds of the church left that went from like 450 people to like 60 hmm and the the guy who's left the preaching pastor

Basically ripped up the the Constitution rewrote the Constitution and from what

I was told I'm saying that I'm Recognizing this is hearsay, but from what I was told he wrote a brand new one that has no more elder rule

But the single elder rule now if that's true, that's a real problem Right, right, right.

So they have to submit to the doctrinal statement and In fact just so you realize when you have a

Bylaws for a church that is the law if you were to You we don't sue

Christians, but if you were to take someone to court And this is why I encourage pastors to put a statement in their bylaws that explains

Specifically how church discipline works we discussed that last episode but the reason

I do that is because Having that in there and I knew of a church when

I was in seminary that They called they did church discipline.

Someone left the church. They sued the church and the church

Had in there a Detailed steps of church discipline. That's all the law looked at this courts looked at the bylaws and said they're following their bylaws

If a pastor is just ripping up the Constitution on his own and the Constitution said and the bylaws say you need

The team of elders or you need so much from the congregation or something and he didn't do that Then that church is now breaking the law.

Mm -hmm Okay, they're violating Romans 13 and they don't think of it that way, but that's what what is happening

Yes, so it's it's the pastors who are gonna do the interpretation But we're being specific right here in saying to define that cooperation, which we said if the pastors are saying hey

We believe King James only churches that preach from King James That's what the pastor said what they're gonna do with with the fellowship.

Okay? I won't go to a church that says that they'll work with the Catholics but if that's what the pastors are

They have their reasons for doing it. I'm gonna say well fine. That's a local church decision Mm -hmm.

Yes But we do see that there is an authority within the church, we just don't want it to be abused and unfortunately, yeah

Wade you and I are in churches that you know independent churches that are more likely to have that happen, right?

Right. I've seen that firsthand Yeah jobs, you know, I remember being at a small conference

I mean small because this is back many years ago When they're starting up this thing called a master's fellowship with the church at John MacArthur's Church out there in Grace Community Church and so there were maybe 50 of us that were part of it back then and So we had met

John John MacArthur came out Steve Lawson came out They both had preached and but it was it was a lot more informal.

It wasn't really a preaching It was a lot more discussion and John had said he recognized that as independents that there's the problems

With as he said independent dispensational churches He didn't use the term

Baptist because I don't think they would say they're Baptist. They're Baptistic, right, right, but He's pointing out there.

There is a lot of things that are hurting by being independent And one of the things he brought up is the abuse that can happen from pastors so though the the

Doctrinal statement we're looking at isn't being specific to that here. I want to address that Because we're this is being really specific in the sense to say that this authority and This sole judge of measure and method is for the cooperation.

That was the sentence before Mm -hmm Okay doesn't mean the pastor has right to say everything that happens in your life

Right, right If you go back on apologetics live we if you go on striving for turning org You can search for dangerous doctrines and there's an article that goes through an apologetics live series

We did and in that series we evaluated a church that someone called a cult and and we're

I was saying hey, let's not use that word unless it's really true and In that series though, we ended up realizing it was a cult because there were things where the pastor said to a single woman

Well, since you don't have a father, I'm your spiritual father and he set up a bank account where her paycheck was directly deposited into his bank account and he would give her an allowance of money and so she wanted to get some new furniture for her house and He decided she didn't need that that was a poor stewardship of her money

So he wouldn't give her money now that kept her in the church for many years Because she had to give up all her savings to leave and eventually she left and just gave up the money

But that is abuse and that I wouldn't be saying is a right thing

So when we're saying this though that they're the sole judge it is in that cooperation with other churches

Have I beaten that to death enough Wade? No, I Thank you. I think you made your point.

I am curious. Do you believe that the church? votes on anything or do you believe in like Sure enough elder rule or do you believe in like an elder led?

Church confirmed. So I I do not see a strong argument

Really either way in scripture to the point where I can see

I could see either of their being so for example, I I do believe for deacons what

I see in scripture is that the congregation chooses the deacons but the pastors choose pastors so with the way

I've done it in in the churches where I've been the the church will select names for deacons and the pastors will

That so they they give the names and then it's confirmed by pastors Right where the the pastors will select a name for the

Other pastors and then the congregation would then Confirm that correct.

And so that would be the position now. I'm kind of more of a practical side on this. So When it come when you have smaller churches,

I believe with smaller churches the Smaller churches should be

Congregational led if they're a spiritually mature congregation, right? Because that's the problem with that I have no problem with if you have one man

As the pastor, he's the only pastor then I would say have have other people

Mm -hmm. So I planted a church. How do we do it? We what we did I Was the only pastor

I was the preaching pastor So what I did was I got two other men that I said, okay, they're going to be acting as pastors

They're not going to be pastors. We're gonna give a couple of years for people to evaluate them and then

Whether to see whether they're gonna be pastors or not But what I did was I would have once a month

All of the men any of the men of the church could meet for a men's meeting Mm -hmm, and we would discuss the issues of the church.

Why did I do that? Because I think as a single pastor I Shouldn't be making the decisions by myself

Right. So the advantage of doing that is it also is training up future pastors and deacons

Mm -hmm, but I'm also getting the input of the kind of the congregation or at least the men

Why only the men because I believe within the church only men should have authority and rule

And so we did that separation. Could you I have included the women on that? Maybe right that was a discussion we had

We felt that it should be the men and so That's how we did it

But what that did was that got me an idea of where the congregation was when we made a decision We got all the discussion done there, which was the nice thing in a small church is you know

You're not dealing with some of the problems that way because it's being discussed together Mm -hmm, right and then

Again, I didn't want to be the only one deciding so then the three men would meet to vote on things, right?

And and so I would you know, I'm not dogmatic on it I know there's many that are but you know,

I've seen look unfortunately. I've seen a lot of guys I don't know what it is with message seminary There's a lot of it that comes out of there where you get these guys that are trained on elder rule elder rule and I'd see these guys that come out and the first thing to get to a church and the first thing they want to do is install elders elder rule in a congregational led church

And I've I know three that I've talked to him like slow up Like it's okay if the church wants there but train them teach them

That's what we did in in two of the churches. I was in is we took a congregation, but we we taught through it for two years right before we brought in lay pastors and paid pastors and made them the making the

Elder led where they make the decisions some church. I know have hey the elders make all decisions, but the church votes on the budget

Yeah, you know, there's different ways that some churches do it, right? So some churches everything's the congregation they vote on everything some the pastors and even when

I say that there's no church Where the pastors or the congregation votes on everything? Because you're not gonna oh, hey, you know, so -and -so's got a counseling needs counseling.

Let's vote on it Like not right, right, but even within congregational led there's certain things

They the authority they give to the pastors to make decisions on their own There are some churches where congregation has absolutely no say

Mm -hmm, and then there's those in the middle. I it's more practical thing It depends if I had a church where I had 13 godly men

Mm -hmm. I have no problem being elder elder led You know, right.

There's enough men that one person doesn't dominate Sure. Yeah, I agree 100 % with what you with what you said because you you need every pastor needs to be held accountable and if a pastor has

Total freedom Over everything within the church. It is very likely that that freedom is going to go to his head and He is going to make decisions that are not in the best interest of that local church

And so having accountability is is key For sure so I would agree with you on that especially if the guy's coming from outside the church because he's

He's gonna keep a hold on us because it's his livelihood on the line, right? He's got to keep control of that and that's usually what disqualifies these guys so as strong as we are with the the previous sentence about the fact that the pastors are the sole judge

I Want you to know specific wording and this is again I want these are in doctrinal statements for a reason some of the precision

Because the next sentence says the elders should determine all other matters of membership policy

Discipline benevolence and government as well No, you see all of a sudden it's softened with that should

Mm -hmm, not must Right elder led would say must if they're making all decisions but Notice where the other is there the they're the sole judge.

Well, that is when it comes to cooperation with other Churches of like faith

Mm -hmm. This is now everything else and it's saying well and consistent with everything that Wade and I've been saying the pastors should have the say but should because there's times that the pastors are human too and could be in sin as Wade had mentioned, you know, so that becomes something that needs to be reviewed

Right and needs to have some accountability so Where are you at with with your church you have elder led we have a plurality of elders, but we are elder led church that's takes matters, especially the bigger matters to the church for confirmation and and so I would see that they're the congregational vote as as just that as a confirmation not as something that they

Agree with or disagree with as far as their opinion is concerned So if we want to buy three acres of land

The congregation should be looking at okay is what our pastors asking us biblical

If it's biblical then we need to vote for that or Whatever the case is they're there they are

I believe the congregation should hold each pastor accountable To the by the

Word of God Okay, and it's not by their opinion which so many churches, you know

Vote no on things because I just don't want that or I don't think that's the right thing well, what does the

Bible say? Mm -hmm and allow that pastor to shepherd and Make sure that what he's asking of you, whatever that is is biblical and if it's biblical then

I Believe that they are duty -bound And their local church to vote for that and to confirm that so So if you you see it, so if the church

If the pastors made a decision you give it to the congregation. That's not a vote like so the pastors already made the decision

And this is just for the pastors to say look if 80 % say no we shouldn't do that Maybe we as pastors to rethink it.

But if if the votes 80 % against It's still the pastors vote. Is it that well?

No, I It's still I mean if it's if it's 80 % against and yeah, obviously

Yeah, something is amiss and probably we would not do that. Well, yeah, but I'm saying the the

But the cut it's not the Congregational's vote that makes a difference and I like okay Well X percent of the vote says this so it passes

The you're saying the elders are passing it But you're giving it to the congregation to see if they confirm it if they agree with it

And if a majority doesn't even if us even if it's 25 % maybe not a majority the pastors go

Let's maybe rethink this right? Yes, exactly. Yeah Yeah, and then so that I pastored some very small rural country churches where Really that the pastor didn't have a lot of authority at all you know the authority lied more with the deacons and the the local the church votes and whatever the deacon said that's what the church would do and so the

The pastor didn't have a lot of authority whatsoever and so a lot of times especially in country rural churches

You don't get a lot accomplished for the kingdom because it's all about their opinion as to Any any matter whatsoever, which is really sad.

Yeah, I agree Well with that this that is going to wrap up another episode of the rap report

I know that Wade you're gonna come on with me one more time and this is you know We talked about cooperation the whole reason

I'm having you and the other people on as my co -hosts is to give them a chance to promote their podcast because we're not in competition at the

Christian podcast community so before we Get go out. Why don't you let folks know a little bit about your podcast what you got?

in store your bias We have a podcast called the Patriot pastors podcast and it's hosted by myself

Wade Lentz and another pastor Friend of mine who also lives in Arkansas. His name is

Harold Smith and we talked about all sorts of issues that are related to politics and and governments to elections to church issues as we are both small town pastors and So we cover a lot of different topics.

We have about 90 or so episodes that You can listen to and and all sorts of different subjects.

I would encourage you to to listen to us and we're certain that you can find some episodes somewhere that it can be edifying to you and encouragement to you as as a believer in Jesus Christ and And with that folks we'll be back next week to finish up another part of this

Doctrinal statement on the church and with that that's a wrap This podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church

Go to seven for eternity org striving for eternity is a Christ centered ministry focused on equipping people for eternity and they provide speakers and seminars that come to your church with expertise in theology hermeneutics world religions creation science evangelism presupposition of apologetics church history and expertise and sexual abuse in the church for details on their