Abortion, Is It Biblical?

Apologetics Live

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So it's all that we need only sufficient, but the only thing that could be done for okay So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing

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Is it is it the only thing or is it not do you need to be baptized or not? Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient

00:18

It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good

00:23

Welcome to apologetics live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

00:31

Bible meet your hosts from striving for Eternity Ministries Andrew Rappaport, Dr. Anthony Silvestro, and Pastor Justin Pierce We are live apologetics live here to answer your

00:46

Bible questions challenges, whatever you may have for us tonight We are here.

00:51

We're up to the challenge You disagree with us you think that we're wrong about the Bible you think that the

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Bible teaches that abortion is okay We can handle that discussion. That's we're gonna be here today doing now.

01:04

I don't have our regular co -hosts. They're all out But I brought a friend in Pastor Darren steed.

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How are you, sir? Man, I'm doing good better than I deserve. I feel bad. That was an awesome intro of all those great co -hosts that you have and Me today, you know

01:24

Yeah, but I reached out to you because the topic we're dealing with is the topic of abortion which you kind of deal with quite a bit and Let me let me just give the the for folks that are watching or listening

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Why we set this up. I right now don't see anybody backstage, but anyone can go to apologetics live calm and From there you can see scroll down you'll see the little duck icon for stream yard and that is how you join us

01:54

Go there to join us to to have the discussion now,

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I'm saying that specifically to one individual on Twitter because this started on I guess

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I somehow responded to something that James dr. James White was responding to some quote -unquote pastor and the pastor when

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I responded It became a thing where he and I were going back and forth his his

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I guess Description of himself is is a pastor of some church and he says he's all

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Christian all gay all the time And so that started the discussion it went from there to a couple women that claim they were female pastors

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And so we changed into that topic and then it came to abortion and as we were discussing abortion

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We had there's one individual who said he was up to the challenge to come on to apologetics live

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And so I said good let's do that. So he won't he was arguing that as a Christian I could hold to a view of abortion and You're shaking your head

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I Don't think I can as a true

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Christian. Oh wait, that's the no, no true Scotsman fallacy. No, it's not actually So when we get to the fallacy section,

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I'll explain that fallacy tonight That'll be the one we can explain but we are hoping he'll come in But as often is the case

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So often is the case many people want to challenge me tell me how wrong I am and I say good let's do it live and You guys see them all here, right?

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It's just Darren and I all by ourselves. I I don't see them around Don't don't know what happened to them

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It seems to be the case every time right that This is what what ends up happening.

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You know, we we look for him and this is what we find just Yeah Yeah crickets is all we get we're waiting you know, hopefully hopefully he'll come and show up but Something tells me that may not be the case.

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But if not, we're gonna be able to still discuss the topic So let me first start off pastor Darren.

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This is not your first time on the show, but for folks To know could you explain, you know,

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I reached out to you with the issue of abortion Could you explain your ministry that you have with Operation Save America Yes, so I'm the assistant national director with Operation Save America.

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So Operation Save America is a ministry That started it has its roots in the rescue movement of the 1980s and 90s and that was back before the face at Christians were blockading the door of abortion clinics and things like that and That's how

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Operation Rescue got started now Essentially what our ministry is all about doing is equipping

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Christians to engage in Kingdom ministry Outside of abortion clinics on the sidewalks pleading with mothers not to go through with the decision to slaughter their children out in the culture

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Trying to help Christians people who profess to be Christians understand the issue of abortion and why it is

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Why it is a issue that Christians should engage in and how we have a duty and an obligation to speak upon it behalf the

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Preborn and then also going to legislators and calling on them to pass legislation That puts an immediate and total into abortion.

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And so that's what Operation Save America is all about I'm blessed to have the opportunity to be the assistant national director, and I love the ministry

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You guys can check out operationsaveamerica .org to find out more About what we do there, but it's an equipping ministry just like striving for eternity is an equipping ministry

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We seek to equip Christians with the tools that they need to help put an end to the slaughter of the preborn from a gospel -centric

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Kingdom my standpoint Yeah, and just humble clay speaking of that pastor says sounds like he's all lost

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Yeah, I just posted something that someone said is gonna get me into Facebook up jail I said said quote gay

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Christianity unquote is all gay and no Christianity That's right. And that's really what it comes down to they they do that and they

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You know, it's like I don't see them doing this was with Islam Yeah, you know, they're not going into mosques saying we're a gay

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Muslim. Yeah Because they'll throw you off the building Well, that's what

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I'm gonna say in some places in the world that take you out and throw you off of a tall building Yeah, I think something like that.

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I got a funny story about that if I could throw it in here with Operation Save America We were doing some street ministry at on a college campus in I think it was

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Arkansas. And while we were there it was world hijab day. And So, you know what a hijab is, right?

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Yes the covering that women wear on their heads And what was really funny is all these high school dudes were putting hijabs on their head to celebrate

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Islam and so forth We had a really funny conversation with several because we say oh you think Islam is a great religion

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They say yeah, it's a religion of peace And we said, you know if you were in a Muslim country wearing that thing on your head

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They would throw you off the roof of a building because yes like a woman Yeah, we're all you know taken aback and flustered and things like that So the average

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American that's pro -muslim doesn't have the first idea what Muslims actually believe what Islam teaches.

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Yeah, right So in in our in the news section tonight, what I want to deal with is an attempted murder of justice

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Kavanaugh now this if you are watching CNN or Fox News or any of those you may not have seen this

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This is not a high in the list. Why because some guy from California came all the way across the state

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Because he wanted to kill justice Kavanaugh Because well, he took the words of Democrats literally when

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We had Chuck Schumer who threatened Kavanaugh and others that if they go through with this

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There's a whirlwind coming. They they're gonna they're gonna pay, you know for this decision

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And someone took that to heart Now it's interesting because this is in light of what right now as we're recording this live there is the the

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Democrat show going on for January 6th where they're going to be trying to you know

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Put on a show saying that Trump somehow it's all Trump's fault He riled people up to do this riot, which was really just a photo shoot

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I mean, I'm sorry, but look at the pictures. Everyone's in the Capitol. They're within the velvet ropes They're taking pictures and selfies in the they're on a tour.

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Yeah, they're they're not rioting That looks nothing like what we saw for for a year and a half in every city in America with Black Lives Matter Okay, there was no fires burning.

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There was no weapons. There were none of that And so they want to say that because Trump said to go peacefully protest that was code word

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For you know take over the Capitol, right? Well, Chuck Schumer said far worse we have other

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Democrats that said yes with the abortion possibly being overturned It is

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Roe vs. Wade That that is war Well, you had someone that he got fed up with Kavanaugh because he said he also know

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Pastor Darren. I'm trying to figure this out. This is this is the left and I know

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Logic need not apply The guy is upset with the recent school shooting and he's upset that Brett Kavanaugh may vote in a

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Decide in a way that he won't that he's gonna support guns and not support gun control so this guy went to Kavanaugh's house with a gun

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Yeah, shoot him Yeah, this is so what's really interesting about this and a lot of people don't understand this about liberals liberals are not actually

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Gone, it's just a matter of who has who doesn't doesn't have the guns. Yes you if you go read

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Rules for radicals by Solinsky, which I think every Christian should read that book with a discerning eye

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One of the things he talks about on there's he says Do we have the guns in our favor? And if the answer is that question is no then we're anti gun

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But if we do have the guns in our favor, then we're pro -gun if we have numbers in our favor.

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Are we anti -violence? Yes, if the numbers are against us, are we anti -violence? No, and you know the interest the interesting thing about that whole argument is that Progressives and liberals are quote -unquote anti -gun, but they want the police to have guns, but then they're anti police

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They want to defund the police You know what? I mean? Like it's a very inconsistent weird way of thinking about the world and the reality is it's it's in there and their estimation

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It's about power It's about gaining power and then having the people that they control be the only ones that have access to guns

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That's the thing. So that's how you can get this guy Sort of thinking that on the one hand guns are bad

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But on the other hand I'm gonna use my gun for good and I'm gonna go get this guy Well, and that's the whole thing. They always think what they're doing is good

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They have the moral superiority because they just are better right and and anything else they do they can murder people they could destroy people's lives and it doesn't matter because They're just right.

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I mean, they're always gonna be right because they're better than us, right? Yeah, one. It's it's really convenient when you believe in situational ethics if you believe in situational ethics, you can always be right

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Yeah, no matter what's happened. No matter what crazy thing you do if you believe ethics Bending themselves to your situation and circumstances you can be right all the time and other people can always be wrong

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And that's the reason you never see the left ever apologizing for anything because they believe they don't believe in the fixed morality they believe morality is is is

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You know that it can mold and bend and so forth so it's very convenient to believe in situational ethics

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You know when you do bad evil things, so well, this is what I supposed to this some time ago I said, you know, the truth doesn't matter

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Facts don't matter. It's the narrative that matters and that's what we're seeing in our country right now It's it's the narrative the narrative can change and it does it.

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Okay Hey, as long as as long as it gets our agenda, that's all we care about Yeah reminds me of which this is old news now things stale so quickly in our political environment

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But you remember when Hillary Clinton went? I mean, she literally went before Congress talking about American CIA agents that lost their lives overseas and said at this point

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What difference does it make? Yeah, in other words, it doesn't help my narrative anymore Discard with the lives of these people.

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Let's move on to the next thing. Yeah. No, it's very interesting what happened with that You know like you you bring that up and so few people we had an investigation with George W Bush To who is claiming he he and someone or someone in the administration outed a

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CIA agent Who was taken off cover because she kept telling she kept blowing her cover, right?

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She kept issues making out with her boyfriend at the time in the car and said, ah, I'm a undercover

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CIA agent That's what I do for a living Wasn't very good at her job

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But they had to investigate and we spent like three and a half million dollars to figure out who leaked the name to Robert Novak the reporter and and when

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Robert Novak could finally when the gag order was removed he said that They they asked him the first question

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They asked is was your source Chris Arminges and he said yes, then there was no more need to investigate who the source was

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And they played it up like George Bush was behind this and put her life at risk

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Well, she was sitting at a desk job here in America those six

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CIA agents that you referred to. Yeah that Obama called them

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CIA agents were in a Iraqi or sorry Iranian prison. Yeah they were being charged with spying on their country and What did

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Barack Obama do he called them CIA? They said they were contractors He blew their cover

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Yeah, like really blew their cover while they're while their lives are being threatened. Yeah, but hey narrative matters

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Yeah, and that's what it is. I mean when you think about all this discussion and in these different things, it's

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We live in a country and I mean we're talking about Democrats. There's a lot of evil in the Democratic Party Republicans can be bad, too

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There's a lot of political theater that happens especially on both sides, I like how Dan Bongino says it he says

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Republicans may not be the solution to all your problems, but Democrats are the core Right.

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No. Yeah, absolutely. I agree It's like, you know, there are Republicans in the world that I could vote for, you know

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They're good people love the Lord believe in good things I haven't met a Democrat that I could cast a ballot for If they believe in the

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Democratic platform, but these these things, you know Like the whole thing with December 6 and it was an insurgency and all this other stuff

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It's like are you serious? Like you were talking about earlier. These people are walking in the velvet ropes.

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They're taking selfies You know, like if it was an insurgency It was like the worst one ever in the history of the world

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And now you got the Democrats trying to rile people up about Supreme Court and they're there

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You know, you got these these Virtually, I mean there was there was one night where there were virtually riots happening outside of the

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Supreme Court you got people threatening the lives of guys like Justice Kavanaugh and so forth and they're not gonna take responsibility for that But now what

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Trump's take responsibility for what happened on December 6th, which by the way wasn't an insurgency to begin with there are literally dozens of American citizens with rights

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Sitting in prison or jail in Washington DC because they haven't had a trial yet their rights are being trampled on because they went to the they went into the

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They went into a government government building was paid for by their tax dollars.

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I'm not saying I agree with everything they did I don't I'm not saying I agree with the way that everybody carried on and so on and so forth

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But the whole idea that this is this is an insurgency what happened on December 6th, but this over here

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We're stirring up people against the Supreme Court. This is okay. It's just it's a perfect picture of political theater

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The the rural yeah, I mean you could see it in the in the fact that you have let's just do a comparison

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Black Lives Matter protests first of January 6th. Okay, Black Lives Matter Burning cities down taking over city streets calling even some of the city streets their own country

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Yeah wanting to defund the police and their purpose as they said is to overthrow the government system

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Because it's it is racist. Yeah Versus a bunch of people that wanted a

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Reekin an audit of the count. Yeah, I mean which one sounds like it's following the system of democracy

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It sounds like January 6th. They wanted democracy. That's what they wanted. Yeah, but but this is a gaslighting

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It's you know saying oh look you're these guys are doing it They're doing you just tell the lie long enough that people start believing it and that's that's what we have

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And that's what you're gonna see on TV on the other channels if you're watching tonight, which I don't recommend

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Well, and I could do you one even better than that. I mean remember in our memory so short in this country They're gaslighting us because we forget what happened just a few short years ago, but remember when occupy

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Wall Street Literally took over the capital in Wisconsin. They took over the capital and they were in the capital if I remember right it was

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Several days if not weeks Occupy Wall Street was literally in the capital and would not allow the state's business to carry and that wasn't considered terrorism at all

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Yeah, that's we're talking Few hours just remember they said that the what made

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January 6 so horrible was the fact that this has never been done before Yeah, right for Brett Kavanaugh's hearings, right?

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Yeah Stop, they didn't stop the hearings when when a bunch of protesters came in and and did exactly what we're being told now

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Here's the one thing folks. Here's the if you need any help with January 6 We're gonna move to the topic of abortion, but here's the one thing what would help me immensely was listening to Ted Cruz right after that go through the timeline why?

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Because when you look at the timeline, you know You end up seeing plenty of videos out there where the police open the doors

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They move the barricades open the doors and people started just going in why because they were invited in So here's the thing why?

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well because Ted Cruz and a bunch of Republicans who I believe should have stuck to their guns they gave in and caved to the

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Democrats in the end because they were gonna wait till Arizona got called and they were waiting for that and then they were going to Do a vote for a

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Audit, I forget it was I think a 20 -day order. I forget how many days it was But they were gonna do a call for an audit

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They had enough votes to do that to call for the audit and and have that procedural

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Done So soon as Arizona gets up to do to announce that they're going for Biden The police come in the

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Capitol Police come in and remember Pelosi turned down the National Guard that that Trump wanted, right?

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I heard that didn't want the the the extra police that so the the

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Capitol Police came in and And and said they had to move everybody out for their safety and they moved them to a not the the secure location they should have been in a different location

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The problem was they were moved before anybody was in the building.

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That's a major problem If you want to know if it was a setup, that's how you know the the

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Capitol Police came in and Said we have to move you for your safety because there's people in the building before there were people in the building

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That's a major issue. And then when they moved them a second time, it's when they started having people in the building

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And they had and they just saw, you know, a couple hundred people in the building and they actually marched the the congressmen's congress people

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Through so that they could see the people To to the secure location and then an hour later emptied everyone out and brought them back in to vote and then then they dropped this thing of the

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The audit because oh, this is a travesty with the what they did was they brought them and they secluded them

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Where they couldn't get any get any news They're being told there's all this violence and and things going on and then they come back and go

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We got to stick together with democrats show unity No, you you just caved in and and the real insurrection happened that day, but it wasn't from those

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Protesters it was from the democrats who who manipulated to shut down an audit

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Because if you saw you haven't seen two thousand mules yet, but if you've seen that from what I understand It gives compelling evidence that there was tons of fraud

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Not necessarily that we know how the votes went because we can't get the audit Because you know democrats every time they lose an election

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It's it's not legitimate. I mean we now know From the fact that you know, michael sussman.

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This is a pretty political show so far but michael sussman had you know Was hillary clinton's lawyer that they that created this whole russia collusion thing that trump supposedly was colluding with the russians

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We now know that barack obama had signed off to say that it was russians hacked the dnc

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Six days before the fbi got the images Where they made that conclusion

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How do you know It goes back to something I said a little while ago and i'm just going to say it again I say it as many times as it applies

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Salonsky rules for radicals. What do the democrats do? What do progressives liberals do whatever evil thing?

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They're getting ready to do they accuse you of doing it before they do it and that's exactly what happened because it creates confusion

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Who was it who was colluding with russia? Was it the democrats or was it the republicans? Well, it was actually the democrats the evidence show that were colluding with russia

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But they accused with the dossier and all that stuff. They accused trump and so forth and they accused him before the supposed

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And i'm not even a a big trump guy like, you know, I I tell people all the time I do my work mostly at the state level.

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I travel around talk to state representatives, but a lie is a lie no matter what level what it happens at and in this case, it's like If anytime you see

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I always do this anytime I see Progressives or liberals accusing conservatives of a thing a mean evil thing

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There's a chance that conservatives are guilty of it. We're centers too. We do bad things But I always want to say let's watch in six months and see what they're going to do

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Yeah, I mean right think about what they were think about what we were hearing over and over from the democrats before the election

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Yeah, they were calling for Fighting on the streets they were calling for violence if the vote didn't go the right way

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Yeah, maxine waters was telling people approach approach these congressmen approach these senators run them out of the restaurants, you know

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And all this stuff and then people do that and they're like, oh you can't blame that on me. So We mentioned a couple of of logical fallacies here you mentioned gaslighting so let's deal with the no true scottsman fallacy and the gaslighting so What is a no true scottsman fallacy the way this came about was the idea that um

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Someone in in scotland would say no no scotman scotsman would eat I forget what it was

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But you know eat something with their haggis um And and someone goes well, there's you know

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Joe over there. He's a scotsman and he's eating that with his haggis It was like well, no true scotsman would do that.

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So the the argument the fallacy is to say When you claim that something somewhere well, they're not a true whatever

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Unless they hold to your position. Yeah, that is the no true scottsman fallacy.

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What is not the no true scottsman fallacy Is if you actually have a definition of what it means to be a scottsman right like Having scottish citizenship, right if if that defines you as a scottsman then

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To say that so if you say for example, uh that A true scotsman owns land in scot in scotland

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That makes you a true scotsman if that's the definition of a scotsman So to say well if I own land, well, no no true scotsman

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Wouldn't own land. Well, you can actually define that. Okay and so you you if there's a definition like What is a true christian well the bible defines what a christian is so we have a definition to it

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So when you say well somebody Who celebrates their sin is not a true christian?

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And they'll go. Oh, that's not that's a no true scottsman fallacy No, it's not because the scripture is clear that a christian won't celebrate their sin.

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They repent of that So that is a definitional thing so That's one fallacy the other fallacy you mentioned is gaslighting that's actually from a a movie

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I think in the 50s or 60s where a guy kept changing the lights in his house and telling his wife the lights were bright when they weren't and He kept doing it every day and by doing it over and over and over again

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Eventually, she went crazy and started to believe the lie. We saw this bill clinton was president

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They just kept telling a lie long enough and and they kept it's like tell the lie long enough people will believe it

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That's what gaslighting is and that's what the media is doing They're telling the lie long enough so you could believe it and and you come to chaos.

26:09

I mean, here's here's what kt says Could you guys also talk about? How bees aren't fish?

26:16

Now, I don't know if you've seen this one. No, I haven't. Okay, so in california This is a case of gaslighting, right?

26:24

You can now call bees fish Okay, so I guess what it is is they had laws on the books to to protect certain fish as endangered animals

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They wanted to protect the bees under that. So what they did is just say Bees are a form of fish

26:39

Totally changing the taxonomy of how we categorize bees and fish totally different families

26:47

Yeah, but in this in this age of hey It it's however you identify so maybe the bees identify as a fish now, here's the problem

26:58

People want to say that's ridiculous Bees can't identify as a fish. Yeah, but that is a problem because now all of a sudden

27:07

Uh guys can't identify as girls either and so they want the one so what do they got to do?

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They this this is where the gaslighting takes effect because people are so tied in to the one narrative

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To keep the narrative because narrative is what's important to keep the narrative they will accept the most ridiculous things in the world

27:29

Yeah Well, that's Our society right now is particularly the way our society is structured right now.

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It's particularly susceptible to gaslighting um for two reasons Number one because of the marxist what you're just talking about bees the whole thing with bees and fish with with with a social marxist worldview

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Um, and some people don't like that term social marxist call it whatever you want to call it It's the sort of the new the uh, it's it's the the concept that there is no truth

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And words can mean whatever I want them to mean so I can just pour my definition into the meaning of words and I can

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Use words to suit my purpose And so this is this is what kids are being taught in school.

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It's the same thing with the bees and the fish It's the same thing with men and women we could define all the terms

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We can redefine all the terms and we can make the words words mean whatever we want them to mean Well, if you think about if you if you embrace that worldview

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If a person embraces that and then their understanding of the meaning of language is only ever informed

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By certain influential people in the culture. They can be essentially convinced to believe anything

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So that's the first reason our society is susceptible to gaslighting The second reason our society is particularly susceptible to gaslighting is because lies spread very quickly in our culture

28:48

Uh, you know, we have we have social media. We have the advent of the meme we have You know blogs podcasts so forth

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And that has its strengths and its weaknesses one of the weaknesses is now anybody with a microphone and an internet connection can start a can start a podcast or start a blog or create a page on facebook and start start producing memes and so forth and what happens is

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It's it's a blessing because that allows good ideas to spread quickly But it's also a curse because it allows the technology itself is neutral But it allows bad ideas to spread very quickly.

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And so because of that reality Because of the embracing of a marxist view of truth and a marxist understanding of language he who defines wins

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And people just get to certain influential people define the terms as they want them to be defined And then that narrative goes out and it spreads far and wide very quickly

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And people grab hold of it and their minds are their minds are changed very easily because there's no fixed

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There's not even a fixed concept of language let alone a fixed concept of morality or a fixed concept of truth

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And so we live in a society where it is very easy for a small number of people To gaslight a very large number of people because people don't think anymore.

30:03

They're not thinkers Just it's it's very easy to just sort of twist and mold truth and make it whatever you want.

30:09

That's right So let's let's get into another gaslighted issue is abortion. Um Drew here is saying i'm guessing andrew's debate opponent chickened out drew.

30:22

Are you surprised? I am not anymore. I mean people I I get all these keyboard warriors that uh that They are really strong behind the keyboard um

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You know but then again When you come here and and supposedly i'm the character

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I was telling you this pastor darren on that thread on on twitter These they were all ganging up basically this pastor

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You know, it says he's a pastor. That's the gay pastor. He um, he was like I have to mute you because I just it's not good for me to be in this discussion

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So can you others help out? And so That's just like hey i'm gonna play the victim and let everyone else jump on him, right?

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We had a one -on -one conversation. So then I had a whole bunch of people so they were actually going this guy looks like a professional troll

31:13

He's a troll. Look his he says he's got a he's a pastor in a some a seminary that doesn't exist anymore

31:20

You know probably never did exist. No. Yes. My seminary did close down some years ago Yep, and so was it?

31:27

Yeah It said but at least one of the guys that well he does have him He he has been online doing ministry for over a decade

31:35

Yeah, you know, so it's like he does have history But it did it did make it interesting that they they

31:40

I guess expect that there's paid trolls maybe on the left That's what they have Uh, but yeah, no i'm not i'm not a paid troll uh, but the interesting is they all of them were saying how

31:50

I can't oh and I was supposed to to do this one of the things they says I can't argue myself out of a wet

31:56

Paper bag and pastor justin wanted to see me do that I forgot that I was supposed to do that.

32:01

But uh I'm, like hey if i'm such an easy knockover opponent

32:07

Here you are apologetics live .com Go to the website click the link to to join and let's let's have at it

32:13

But uh, you know as humble clay is saying keyboard warriors equal mom's basement dweller and that's actually you know it's interesting you say that humble clay because I said to this guy.

32:24

I said you're not going to chicken out. I mean you're not like playing video games in mom's basement. Are you? he never

32:33

Challenged that he was playing video games in mom's basement I think I think I might have been right on that one

32:39

So this is what it will do uh pastor darren Since since my debate opponent didn't show up, right?

32:47

I will be the debate opponent and I will challenge you with some questions Okay So I am

32:54

I i'm gonna i'm gonna identify as a mind Robot, you're gonna be a bee

33:02

So Pastor darren look you you just have to understand That when you are against abortion, you are against a woman's right to choose

33:13

I mean a woman should have a right to choose what she wants with her body. What say you? Yeah, well there

33:19

I the first thing I usually say when somebody says that to me is that there is a certain sense in which I am against a woman's right to choose i'm against a woman's right to choose a lot of things

33:27

I'm against a woman's right to choose to drive her car through my living room. I'm against a woman's right to Uh do all kinds of things a woman doesn't have a right to drive her car through my living room

33:38

I'm against a woman's right to drink consume a bunch of alcohol and then get in the car and drive

33:43

I'm against and why is that? Why do we have laws against these kinds of things because these are things that hurt other people

33:49

And your right to swing your arm ends at the tip of my nose so to speak you've heard that phrase before You you in other words, you don't you have certain rights and those rights are inalienable rights

34:01

They come to you from god. One of them is that you have the right to live You have the right to be you have the right to go about your life

34:08

Without a bunch of interference from the governing authorities, whatever else the case may be but There's an end to that and the end to that is when you begin to start bringing harm to another person

34:20

They other people also have rights and that baby that's in the mother's womb

34:26

Has rights it's a human being that baby is a human being Uh that's created in the image of god

34:32

We find that in psalm 139 verses 13 to 16 where we see david say to god You know, you knew me before you conceived me in the womb.

34:40

You knit me together We see the intricate detail of god's created order. Uh, we see in jeremiah 1 5 i'm just looking down at my notes here

34:47

So i'm not saying all this from memory. I confess We see in jeremiah 1 5 god tells jeremiah.

34:53

I knew you before I formed you in the world So life begins physical life begins conception

34:58

But metaphysically the life of a human being begins in the mind of god Even before that person comes into human existence um, and so You know genesis 127 scripture teaches us that human beings that mankind is made in the image of god

35:13

And therefore mankind the a person a human being their their life has value and worth as an image bearer of god

35:22

The last thing I would point to is as a christian since this person professes to be a christian Um, when we read exodus 21 22 to 24 in the law of god

35:31

God treats the pre -born child like any other human being He says if two men are fighting with one another and the the a woman gets in the way

35:40

And the baby that a pregnant woman gets in the way and the baby that's growing in her womb is harmed He says you are to pay back life for life

35:48

Eye for eye tooth for tooth and so on and so forth Which is the same law that applies to other humans in the other parts of exodus 22 and the rest of the law

35:56

So the word of god treats the human the the baby growing in the womb as a human being created in the image of god

36:02

Which means I am against a woman's right to choose to kill another person I am 100 wholeheartedly against that I make no qualms about it and I would argue to that person

36:13

I would say We're all in agreement That women don't have the right to choose to do whatever they want to do.

36:19

For example They can't drive their car through my living room. For example, they can't consume alcohol and drink

36:24

For example, they can't kill their three -month -old child, right? We all agree about that So it's nothing new saying women don't have the right to choose to do certain things

36:34

Because that baby is a human being created in the image of god Okay. So before I I go back to playing the uh, the opponent here

36:40

Let me point out some things for folks to notice. I want you to notice how pastor Darren Is making a presuppositional argument here

36:48

He is assuming that the child in the womb is a child is a person is a human being

36:55

You'd never give up that point You know, some people will argue and they try to give up that point to still make the case

37:02

But that is a key in this in this debate because the next thing that they're going to end up doing is saying well It's not a baby and they're going to try to say that But don't give in on that.

37:11

Yeah All right yeah, because and the reason that that's important is because When you carry the presuppositional argument a step further, they already know that it's a baby

37:22

So when a person claims that the fetus Which I don't know if you'll bring that up or not here, but they always like to speak latin at this point in art

37:30

The fetus growing in the womb of the mother isn't a baby It's not that they actually believe that the fetus isn't a baby.

37:37

They're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness God has written his law in their heart They know that that baby that's growing in the mother's womb is a baby and if you catch them in the right moment

37:47

They'll call it a baby yeah, when they're not trying to argue with you and sometimes even it's really great when they do that when they are trying to Argue with you you say you say i'm excuse me a what well, she has a baby a what?

38:01

Um, but yeah, yeah or they'll call it a child or you know, but but note that because When they do that they go into latin.

38:11

I I that's where I just go a fetus. What what's a fetus? Yeah, and they try to give a definition

38:16

I go. No. No, what's a fetus? What is the word? What's that latin word mean? Yeah Uh a little child.

38:24

Oh, okay. Yeah, right. Thank you. Okay This is a fetus is a little child.

38:29

Yeah, got it. Yeah, right So, uh, you know john here says, uh,

38:36

I figured I figured as much andrew's opponents Never make it live And so some someone uh messaged me and said and made this may be correct it might be that our liberal, uh, or progressive opponent

38:51

Would rather watch the news and see what happened on january 6th He probably forgot and didn't realize that uh, that was going to be far more important to him

38:59

We'll see if he comes back and challenges me Uh, I will say this as far as not having opponents to challenge for like a year and a half two years

39:06

I was trying to get debates with black hebrew israelites And uh, we had three guys that challenged it said it was going to be three against one.

39:14

We set it up It was all set up the day of the debate The three guys blocked both me and the moderator the guy who set it up and so we couldn't give them the

39:25

Uh the the information to join, you know to to join it and so I told the moderator we're doing the debate

39:31

Anyway, he's like do you have someone else? I said we're doing it anyway And we posted it and and so I said what you're going to do is

39:38

Just introduce me and you can go on to our onto our youtube channel and find this just search for black hebrew israelites uh, but what what

39:46

I ended up doing is I said introduce me let me do the opening then introduce the opponent

39:54

And don't worry about it. He's like, what are you doing? I'm like, don't worry about it So I did my whole introduction. He says well let our opponents, uh introduce themselves and I put up a picture of an empty chair

40:04

Yeah And it had its desired effect that I got a black hebrew israelite that was looking for the debate

40:14

What it felt so shame that these guys didn't show up that he came back and debated me the following week

40:20

Oh, man, that's awesome. And and you know how you know that You did a good job in a debate

40:27

Is that all the people that are on his side the black hebrew israelites all were challenging me

40:33

For weeks afterwards telling me I don't know i'm not a good debater You know, it's just that this guy was really bad.

40:39

They I should debate someone that's could handle me But they didn't come on yeah, it's an open mic

40:46

We got a live show you can come in with anything here folks. You just go to apologize live .com

40:51

Click the duck and come in And we'll answer anything, you know, we answer them in the chat all the time

40:57

So I I don't get it. But uh, so so yeah, it it does seem to be that way so, um

41:04

Going back to our our thing here. So you were you're saying well, let's go with that, you know You're saying it's a baby in the womb.

41:10

That's just a fetus. That's not that's not a human being Yeah, so the first thing

41:16

I say back to that is the fetus thing, okay So let's talk about what is a fetus fetus is the latin word for small child when we're talking about a human being

41:24

That's a baby Um, and so you say well, it's not a human being. Well, then what else is it?

41:29

Um, has any woman ever been pregnant with anything other than a human being What do you mean when you say that it's not a human being?

41:36

And I think it's important at this point in the discussion when people start making those types of statements To ask questions.

41:42

It's not a human being. Well, what is it? And at what point does it become a human that is it's just a bunch.

41:50

It's just a bunch of cells It's it's a bunch of clump of cells that are gathering together Are you an atheist?

41:56

It doesn't matter well, I would say if you're an atheist so are you

42:03

I mean We're all just stardust, right? It's all stardust bumping in the stardust, right?

42:09

If if it's the case that there is no god And the the baby growing in the womb is just a clump of cells.

42:15

Well, so are you we're all just clumps of cells What gives your life value and worth what gives my life value and worth?

42:24

Yeah, and i'll step out of character for a second just to say I mean Whether atheist or not, uh, we we had that time you and I were out at the state of america

42:33

Um regional conference and we went out to purdue university and and the one girl was saying

42:38

What's it's just a bunch of a clump of cells Yeah, I said but so are you right?

42:44

I mean, you're you're just a bunch of cells. Yeah. So what makes you have the rights but The the person in the womb doesn't have the rights

42:53

Yeah, so usually at this point and I like to do this on college campuses if I can Uh, if it's evident to me that the person that i'm talking to has been a victim of rape or something like that Then I don't do it

43:04

Because I think it takes the conversation and direction that is dangerous for that person and keeps me from getting to the gospel

43:10

Eventually, but oftentimes especially when i'm talking to young men and they say it's just a clump of cells

43:16

I'll say well, do you believe that rape is wrong? They say yeah, I say well We're all just clump of cells the same thing happens in rape that happens in abortion.

43:23

You're taking a person's body And you're doing to it what's good for you rather than what's good for them

43:30

If we're all just a clump of cells Right, then what makes rape wrong but abortion or what makes abortion wrong but rape not wrong?

43:39

And the thing that you're doing when you're asking these questions First of all that does tend to bring out a certain amount of emotion

43:45

But the thing that you're doing when you ask these kinds of questions Presuppositional apologetics is when one of the things you do when you're doing presuppositional apologetics is you want to treat the person's

43:55

Worldview like it's a car and you want to get into it and drive it into a tree, right? That's what you do when you're doing presuppositional apologetics

44:03

If I think according to your worldview, we're all just clumps of cells. Okay, you're a clump of cell I'm a clump of cell the baby in the womb's a clump of cells

44:10

Okay, then why is rape wrong or oftentimes we run into these arguments when we're standing on the sidewalk out of an abortion clinic

44:15

Out inside of an abortion clinic and they'll say it's wrong for you to be here Wrong by what standard yeah

44:22

If we're all just clumps of cells and for all once I can get the person to admit that we're all just clump of cells and eventually here

44:29

I don't want to just defend which i'm sure will go here eventually here I don't want to just defend the rights of the pre -born but I actually want to get to the gospel with this person

44:37

That's where i'm going when i'm bringing up those types of discussions That's where we really want to get to within in every conversation.

44:43

Yeah You know when we are outside of abortion miller we are having these discussions online and you know

44:48

When we get the the verdict out These are going to be discussions that people are going to be having and we want to equip folks

44:54

To be able to have good reasoned answers when people start challenging because this is the you are going to be challenged.

45:01

I mean When it first came out and I think I shared this with you Uh, and I put a video out on it

45:07

But when this first occurred The leak first happened I remember being at the supermarket and the lady two two women in front of me

45:17

She felt she was perfectly justified in sharing her views now I believe we all can have opinions.

45:23

Yeah I I have no problem with you having a different opinion than me Yeah, just keep your opinion to yourself

45:31

But if you're not going to keep your opinion to yourself, don't expect that. I won't Yeah So she's sitting there and she goes she she says to the teller she goes the cashier

45:40

She's like I just think it's so horrible that these how could these people be so stupid and idiotic to think that a woman's right

45:48

You know shouldn't be that what makes the decision in abortion And I just I just you know,

45:54

I said over the lady that's in front of me I said, you know ma 'am. I agree with you. I think women should be able to murder

46:01

Yeah And she's like she just looked at me And she's like i'm not saying that i'm saying that women should have a right to choose

46:08

I said I agree a woman should have the right to murder another human being and she says

46:14

She goes well Well, i'm not saying that I mean I would never choose to to abortion, but I think others should have the right

46:20

I said Ma 'am, I agree with you. I would never choose to murder somebody but I think they should have the right to murder.

46:26

Yeah Right, I mean i'm just i'm just sitting there and the way that I was doing it i'm, like i'm saying I agree with her and she just was flabbergasted why because So many of these people have been in an echo chamber for so long because the gas lighting is going on all the time

46:39

That they think that everybody that's rational would would agree with them and they're never challenged.

46:46

Yeah, and so I you're just challenging her. She had no answer Yeah, yeah and just walked out and you know, it was interesting because here's what ended up happening

46:55

I then you know, I yes, I made a scene But I apologized to the lady in front of me and the cashier.

47:01

I said i'm Sorry, you know I was raised that you know, we all have opinions and we should keep our opinions to ourselves And the cashier wanted to agree with the woman that left

47:10

But and she goes well, I think that you know She was right and then the lady that was in front of me says, you know,

47:16

I agree with you I mean, what what was she doing making a scene? About something so so emotional in public.

47:23

She should have just kept her mouth quiet and she didn't even have a good argument. Yeah Right, and then the cashier shut down right folks.

47:32

That's what we're going to be running into that You know, that's what's going to happen um, they just put some comments up here humble clay says

47:39

The day a woman gives birth to anything other than a human baby.

47:45

They'll have my attention exactly That's one of the things that we say to these people a lot when they say that kind of thing

47:51

Well, it's not a woman. Well, then what is it? Yeah a woman ever given birth to anything other than a human being?

47:56

Yeah, and the answer to that question is no. It's a biological impossibility, you know So, okay.

48:02

Well, it's not a human yet. Okay. Well, when does it become a human? And that's uh, my friend laura class and I don't know if you know she is

48:08

Uh, she has a video out on choice for two about the magical birth canal It's a great video.

48:13

Everybody should go watch it check out the choice for two Uh youtube channel she takes the baby through this big birth canal

48:20

Not a baby not a baby not a baby and then it gets the other side and she's like congratulations. You're a baby Yes, and it's like well at what point does the baby become a baby thing, you know?

48:30

It's just so irrational, you know Humble clay says jesus made a scene also andrew, so you're in good company

48:37

So humble clay had said this all pro abortion folks have already been born

48:43

Yeah Right. I mean, that's the thing, you know This is an argument that they're making because they have the luxury of being born

48:53

Yeah, I one of the things I like to do especially on college campuses is when i'm having that conversation

48:58

I try to use the language that they understand because remember we're trying to get into Treating their worldview like it's a car. We want to get into it and drive it into a tree, right?

49:05

So one of the things that i'll do is i'll say you're just saying that because you have birther privilege You're one of the ones that's already been born you're privileged to be alive if you if you were one of the oppressed pre -born

49:20

You know and you weren't part of that privilege class with those that have already been born Then you wouldn't you wouldn't think that it's okay to kill a baby and i've had several students

49:28

In fact when we're out on the purdue campus that one day the one guy just stood there and looked at me I mean, he didn't even say anything back for like 30 or 45 seconds.

49:36

He just stood there and looked at me Yeah It is like if you want to talk about an instance of privilege people who have a privilege and are taking advantage of it

49:44

To bring harm to somebody else if you're born and you think it's okay to kill people that haven't been born yet That's a pretty good example of being part of the hegemony

49:52

Yeah that uh is able to Leverage your your privilege for the sake of denigrating the rights of others

50:01

I was on a college campus and this this young man was saying that because he I did basically very similar to what you did, right?

50:10

He said I said you you just you're born already You you're just you're saying that but you're already born

50:17

You have that that Opinion Because it doesn't affect you.

50:22

He goes. Well, I wish I wasn't born. I wish my mother would have aborted me I said no you don't he says yes,

50:28

I do. I said no you don't he's how could you say that? Because you haven't taken your life yet. Yeah Yeah, you're here

50:35

Yeah, don't don't tell me you've you've you've really wished you were aborted for all your life because you're here.

50:42

Yeah Yeah, exactly. And that's one of the you're here There's a reason that you're here and that too is a perfect opportunity to take the conversation in a different direction

50:51

Take the conversation toward the gospel You don't wish that you were dead or that your mom hadn't given birth to you because you're still here

50:58

So let's talk about that, you know Um, all right, so let's go back and i'll go back into character some other arguments, you know, you pro lifers

51:06

You just want to control a woman's body Yeah, so this is an interesting.

51:13

Um This is an interesting argument. We just want to we just want to be able to control women's bodies

51:19

And so I'll ask the question do you believe that it's okay for a mother to murder her three -month -old baby?

51:26

No, it's already been born well, how come you want to control women's bodies That's not in their body

51:33

Yeah, but you're telling me she can't use her body to pick up a knife and stab that baby No, she can't use her body to do that.

51:39

But the fetus is inside her body as part of her body. Yeah Yeah, so that's her body and you pro lifers want to tell her what she can and can't do with her own body

51:50

Yeah, but by telling her that she can't murder her by telling her that she can't murder her three -month -old You're also telling her that she can't do certain things with her body, but that's not her body anymore

51:59

Sure it is now now it's a different body Oh, it is a different body now Okay So what

52:05

I like to do with this is I like to show a picture of an aborted baby and say whose arm is this? I mean, it's really whose arm is this?

52:13

Is this the mom's arm or is this the baby's arm? Right, of course. It's not the same body. We all know that again sometimes

52:20

I try to be gracious with people but sometimes a certain level of lunacy requires a sharp response, you know, it's like Uh the the the person like there's the sign that says the body inside your body is not your body um, but Everybody agrees.

52:36

This is what I was getting to at the beginning of my argument too, though Everybody agrees that there are certain things that women are not allowed to do with their body, right?

52:43

They're not allowed to drive You believe it's okay for you to do it. Whatever you want with your body Okay, go get out in your car and get out on the interstate and start driving 110 miles an hour

52:51

And see if you don't get pulled over. What do you think is going to happen when you get pulled over? You're probably going to get arrested for reckless driving and why is that because you're not allowed to do whatever you want to do

53:00

With your body. Yeah, the only thing that pro -aborts want a woman to be able to do with her body Is be able to kill her own baby if they were actually thinking consistently with what they were saying there

53:11

Then women would be able to do anything with their body that they want to do out there but we all know that You can't live consistently with that worldview

53:19

And so what I try to do when a person says that is show them that they're not living consistently with that worldview You if you believe a woman can do whatever she wants to do with her body

53:27

There should be no laws pertaining to women at all whatsoever They can use their bodies to do whatever they whatever they want to do and none of us actually believe that They only believe that specifically with regards to the narrow argument about abortion

53:40

Yeah, so I am saying I don't think a woman should be able to kill her baby Even if it's inside of her body,

53:45

I don't think that she should be able to do that Well, you just want to control women's bodies Yes in the sense that I don't think it's okay for women to murder other people

53:54

I do want to control their bodies Yeah as well so i'll step out of character and say you know the argument that I use with it is

54:01

I I do think because like the car the car driving 100 miles an hour They're going to say that's because that's not their just their body.

54:08

But what i'll bring up is You can't smoke cigarettes Before you're 18.

54:13

You can't drink before you're 21 You you can't prostitute yourself Yeah, okay the we we say these things are wrong

54:21

A woman doesn't have the legal right to do that with her body Yeah, yeah

54:26

So that's one way of going the other way and I did this with the woman that I was talking to there at purdue university with you

54:32

Which really got her stumped was I said, but what defines a body because you have within you someone with different dna different gender possibly different blood type

54:46

They're different Human being yeah, you're not your body, you know, and and so she ended up having to go the way they always do is well

54:54

You know a parasite can be in your body. Yes But the parasite's not your body

54:59

Yeah, the parasite is a separate organism. That's the whole proof

55:04

So if they go that route of saying it's a parasite the issue is yes, and the parasite if you have a ringworm

55:11

Yeah or tapeworm that's a tapeworm it's not your body Yeah, you you reason you can get rid of the tapeworm is because the tapeworm doesn't have human rights, right?

55:23

the human that's That body does have human rights and that's the way of arguing that that you know

55:30

I'm I end up doing is to go down that path Um, we have someone a facebook user that's saying can

55:36

I get a shout out from australia? Uh, he had said previously he or she said hey andrew from australia love your ministry well facebook user you got your shout out, but I can't give you your name because you got to go to apologeticslive .com

55:49

and there's instructions how to Allow facebook to show up in stream yards so that we can see your name

55:56

So got your shout out So, um, I would love to visit australia, by the way

56:01

I told you everything I wanted to tell you but I haven't I haven't been able to make it For covet I want it to go badly and i've and i've

56:08

I keep saying like if there's a church in You know australia, please invite me to speak Yeah, right

56:15

I need the Like in a city somewhere,

56:20

I don't want to go out into the there's some crazy places in australia, but anyway so so Uh, let's see.

56:27

We talked about i'm looking at some of the we talked about the fetus is just a clump of cells The fetus is not a per okay.

56:33

Yeah, this one's one we didn't cover the the fetus is not a person It's just a potential person

56:41

Yeah, so this all has to do with it goes back to the clump of cells thing as well You know, so this is a if a person professes to be a christian

56:48

Which is often the case when you're talking to these people. It's a fairly easy argument We believe though the bible's word of god, but even if the person isn't a christian, it's a fairly easy argument

56:57

The thing you have to remember is it's just like when a person says they don't believe in god But if a person tells you they don't believe in god, you have to ask yourself the question

57:05

Am I going to believe what they tell me about themselves or what god says about them? God says that they do believe in god.

57:11

So therefore i'm Discussing i'm having a discussion with them on the basis of what god says not just on what they say

57:17

And when a person tells me that they believe that a baby is just a potential person God's law has been written on their heart.

57:23

So I know that they don't believe that to be true They're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness and so The discussion i'm going to have with them sort of revolves around that i'm not going to go

57:33

I mean, I might depending upon the discussion. I might give them some evidence, you know And there's value in giving evidence and things like that There's a lot of evidence that I could give that the baby inside of the mother is a person

57:44

But the argument that pro -choice or pro -abortion people are trying to make here is they're trying to make a distinction between life and personhood

57:53

Because the argument for a long time this is i'm going to take some time on this if that's okay because yeah

57:58

A lot of people in our camp don't understand this The argument for a long time was about when life begins and that was back when ultrasound technology was really terrible

58:08

And you could look in the womb and you literally you could make the case that that was just a clump of cells Even though biologically we knew that that wasn't true.

58:16

You could deceive a person into believing that well Technology is advanced such that we can look into the womb of a woman

58:23

At 10 11 weeks pregnant and we can see her baby moving his his or her hands around and all those sorts of things

58:29

So no longer can they really make the argument and no longer do they make the argument really that life doesn't begin at conception

58:36

That's an old argument People on our side are still making that argument Uh, but for the most part they're not arguing that anymore

58:43

The big ethical quandary that they're asking in colleges and universities now is okay We know life begins at conception

58:50

But when does personhood begin when in other words, we know life begins at conception

58:55

But just you'll find people out there. It'll say many people out there, especially if they've been trained They'll say well, yeah, sure the baby's alive, but that doesn't mean it has rights

59:03

When does the baby have rights? And what they're trying to do when they do this is they're trying to take the argument out of the realm of biological

59:12

They're trying to take the now they want to ignore the science and they want to take the argument out of the scientific realm

59:18

And they want to muddy the waters and say well, it's an ethical quandary We really don't know when the baby becomes a person when does the baby's life have value and worth?

59:29

And the answer to that question is that the baby's life has value and worth from the moment of conception And when you're talking to a christian or even if you're talking to an unbeliever, they say well i'm not sure

59:39

I believe that I say, okay. Well at what point do you think that the baby's life has value and worth at?

59:44

What point does it become a person? What point is it no longer a potential person and actually a person?

59:51

And if you're talking to a person who's actually spent some time on this they'll either say something like, you know When the baby can live outside of the womb on its own or whatever else the case may be

01:00:01

And i'll say okay So when the baby can come out of the mother's womb and live without any support or whatever then then it's actually a person, right?

01:00:08

And they'll say yeah, and I say how do you know that and they say well Most of the people will say well, I really don't know for sure.

01:00:14

I say, okay. Well, is there a chance? That the baby is a person before uh, the baby is able to live outside the mother's womb

01:00:22

They say well, yeah, sure I guess there's a chance I say well, what if you're wrong and you kill that baby?

01:00:28

What if it is a person and you you kill that little boy or girl? Then what now you've killed a person on the basis of your own

01:00:35

On the basis of a mere assumption on the basis of something you don't know is true When you're talking to an atheist or you're talking to somebody who's not a christian

01:00:44

They're they're trying to make all these Spectacular statements about ethics and morality and we don't know when life begins and all this other stuff

01:00:53

You're trying to make what's a very simple question Into a very complicated question and so I say actually as a christian.

01:01:00

I believe this is a very simple question I believe that that baby is a person from the moment of conception.

01:01:06

I offer the case that I made earlier But I also think that the science lines up with the scripture we know that life begins at the moment of conception that that baby is a reproducing that baby has all of the

01:01:20

Biological markers of life. It's reproducing It's uh consuming. It's it's all of if you look at a biology textbook.

01:01:28

What are the markers for life? We know that all of the biological markers for life are there with that baby

01:01:34

So the scripture says that the baby is alive and a person at the moment of conception The biology says that the per the baby is a a alive at the moment of conception and I ask this question

01:01:46

Why don't you believe the science? Yep Why don't you believe what because one of the things that liberals are constantly?

01:01:55

Uh, yeah, we're supposed to be like this. We're the ones that don't believe the science I say why don't you believe the science?

01:02:00

I mean find me an embryology textbook that says that that baby is not a human person When it's conceived in the womb and I love doing this on college campuses because I say there's a college bookstore right over there

01:02:11

Go into that bookstore and find me an embryology textbook that tells me That a baby is not a person at the moment of conception.

01:02:18

You can't do it. You won't do it It's not find me a biology textbook that says that you won't do it.

01:02:24

You can't do it You may be able to find it in like a sociology textbook or one of the social sciences or something like that But when you're in the realm of hard science, you can't do it and they know that you can't do it

01:02:35

That's why they want to make the argument about personhood to muddy the waters, but i'm not going to let them muddy the waters You don't get to just decide here's the other thing

01:02:43

At whatever point they pick pick whatever point some people say the baby's not a person until after it's alive

01:02:49

After it's born. I'm, sorry This baby's not a person until after it's born Or baby's not a person until after it can live outside the mother's womb or baby's not a person until it has a heartbeat

01:02:58

Pick one of those things. Here's the reality Every single one of those points is completely and totally arbitrary

01:03:05

It's completely arbitrary and if you try to probe deeper as you're having the conversation with the person you say Well, why does it suddenly become a person?

01:03:12

Why does this little baby suddenly become a person when its heart starts beating? Why does that suddenly make it a person?

01:03:17

Or why if it's able to live outside of its mother's womb, is it able to all of a sudden become a person?

01:03:23

This is completely and totally arbitrary So I say let's take it out of the realm of the arbitrary and put it in the realm of hard facts, right

01:03:31

We know life begins at the moment of conception Scripture teaches that personhood begins at the moment that life begins and in the mind of god

01:03:39

Prior to when life even begins and then i'll finish it with this You actually know that life begins in a at the moment of conception and you believe that personhood begins and i'll say no

01:03:49

I don't i'll say really you say yeah, I say well have you you've never told any of your friends? Congratulations when you found out they were pregnant

01:03:57

You've never gone to a baby shower before Celebrated the the conception of a new child

01:04:03

You know You've never you've never been happy with one of your friends when you found out that they were having a baby or a family member

01:04:09

Whatever. No, see the reality is outside of this Discussion that you and I are having right now when you read when you leave the realm of academic

01:04:19

Thought process and you actually are just living in your everyday normal life You behave as though, you know, the baby growing in the mother's womb is a person and here's the evidence of that Yeah, that's right.

01:04:30

And you know, one of the things that I put this up humble clay says, uh Loving this brother smart and articulate

01:04:38

Well, hopefully that's why we invited him on um, and if you do want to follow, you know, the pastor darren, uh,

01:04:45

You know go check out Operation save america see what they're doing and and you know, follow him

01:04:52

See see what he's trying to do with the abortion issue you know, one of the things I do with this darren is this

01:04:57

I I am starting I just started doing this is When they're making this argument

01:05:04

I bring up dred scott Yeah, that's a good one because what's dred scott?

01:05:10

This this is the the argument that we had in this country years ago that said a black person wasn't a human being

01:05:16

And there were people so what I will do is I will say do you support the the dred scott decision?

01:05:24

And they'll say no if they are familiar with it. If not, you have to explain it So so you're saying that just because the government says that blacks are not human beings

01:05:33

Doesn't mean they're not human beings so it doesn't matter what the court and the law says

01:05:38

Because the law said blacks were not human beings. Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you a question. Do you think it was right?

01:05:44

for the people who ignored that ruling Ignored that law and stood up against it because they knew that blacks were human beings and people go.

01:05:56

Yes And I say that's what i'm doing out here, right? Why shouldn't we do that with roe versus wade?

01:06:03

Exactly because because what what roe versus wade is saying is the same thing that dred scott is saying

01:06:08

Just with a different group of people instead of saying all blacks are not human beings It's saying all people in the wombs are not a human being and therefore they don't have human rights so You're doing with the dred scott is you're you're getting them to an again

01:06:23

You are making an emotional appeal to them in this case Because you're getting them to defend something they know it's no dred scott was wrong

01:06:31

It's wrong to say that blacks are not a human being that's wrong for you know with slavery and it's it's you know

01:06:37

You should stand up against that Good now, you know why i'm out here at this abortion mill or murder, right?

01:06:43

I'm out here because just like dred scott was wrong Abortion is wrong. The only difference between you and I is i'm consistent and you're not right

01:06:52

And that's one of the things when you follow that through like you can say, okay Why were the uh, you know,

01:07:00

I mean pick a group of people why was germany wrong when it comes to the holocaust? You know, well because they were oppressing jews and they were killing innocent people.

01:07:09

Okay. Well, why were slave owners wrong when it comes to American slavery and so on and so forth

01:07:15

And what are the things that you can find and this is good This is a good thing to do when you're talking to college students because it's one of the only things they understand

01:07:23

Gone are the days when you can just have a reasonable conversation with a college student. They're very

01:07:29

Emotional and it's almost all emotion at this point very little Certainly not all college students, but i've noticed when i'm on college campuses

01:07:36

Now we saw when we're at purdue that one time was just a lot of emotion And um, but I say, you know wokeness.

01:07:43

Yeah, and it's all wokeness. Yeah It's and on the wokeness thing I say, you know the the germans the nazis were able to Do what they did with the jews because there was an entire class of people that benefited from doing that to the jews you know

01:07:59

Slave owners were able to do what they did To the to black people in this country because there was an entire class of people that benefited

01:08:06

From treating black people as though they were less than human So you have the nazis treating jews as though they're less than human and they benefited from that You have the slave owners treating

01:08:16

Black people so they were less than human They benefited from that and now you're making the same you're advancing the same argument that they advanced back then which is

01:08:26

Jews are not technically people Black people are not technically people And why did they make that case when you're on a college campus?

01:08:33

You can do that The jews made that case because they there was a whole class of people that benefited from it the

01:08:40

White slave owners made that case because there was a whole class of people that benefited from it and there were whole societies and cultures

01:08:46

That accepted what we now know to be completely and totally irrational Because they benefited from it and my friend

01:08:53

Now you are the one making that same argument and the reason that you're making that argument is because you benefit from it

01:08:58

And and if they say they don't it's like wait your whole argument is that it's a woman's choice

01:09:03

She should have the freedom if if it's a case of rape Which is what I was dealing with with purdue, right?

01:09:10

It was like well, I you I was good. I would have been depressed. I would have so you benefit from killing another human being, right?

01:09:17

Yeah, you're the beneficiary of that. Yeah, there's a bunch of you know guys Your economic status.

01:09:23

It doesn't change, you know, you don't have to deal with the the the remembering of it Yeah, you know well, that's guys are the best ones to talk to too with that I mean you have that conversation with women but guys are like well

01:09:33

How do I benefit from women being able to have abortion and i'm like I was like look around Are you trying to tell me that everybody on this college campus is not hooking up with each other and nobody's having babies?

01:09:44

You know what? I mean? Like let's really think this through buddy You know, like have you put a lot of thought into this at all? You know young men who don't want to take responsibility benefit tremendously from abortion, especially on college campuses

01:09:56

Young women benefit from abortion as well Um society as a whole doesn't benefit but they've been uh, and and the men and the young men and young women don't actually benefit either but they've been

01:10:09

Hoodwinked into thinking that they've been the condition that they do. Yeah the way the Thinking that we're doing is what

01:10:16

I always tell people to do. It's I always bring it to the slavery issue because There's when you think about abortion and you think about slavery both are an ownership issue.

01:10:27

Yeah both dehumanize the person Yeah, either the black or the person in the womb, but they they use dehumanization

01:10:35

And then they claim ownership and because they have ownership they have the right to do whatever they want

01:10:41

So what I'll often do with someone is I will defend slavery And again, i'm getting an emotional response

01:10:47

I'm, I want them and I will continue to defend slavery until they tell me i'm listening for these key words

01:10:53

I'm listening for the words This it's wrong to say that another human being is your property

01:11:00

Yeah, so and i'll say so you're saying it's wrong to say this is my property And they'll say yes

01:11:07

Once they do that. I say then explain to me the difference between this is my property and this is my body, right?

01:11:13

Because there is a difference This is my property didn't end in death Yeah, this is my body does

01:11:20

So this is my property is a far better situation

01:11:26

You're promoting something worse than this is my property, right? And and let me just play a clip of something real quick.

01:11:34

This is only like six seconds David smalley Was debating matt slick and in that debate we had already talked prior so he knew where I was going with this question

01:11:44

Because we talked about the ownership issue and his whole argument with matt was that christianity is immoral

01:11:50

Because of slavery he made his whole argument was on slavery. So when it came to q a this is what happened

01:11:57

Mr. Smalley, do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy I'm glad i'm debating him instead of you

01:12:07

Why because what he did not want to debate me Yeah, because he already knew you know, it's actually it was interesting because he said he actually said well

01:12:15

You know, are they you know, are they sinning it or not? In other words, are they aware or not?

01:12:21

And it's like it doesn't matter. I said I said it doesn't matter Yeah, you argued slavery is wrong because of an ownership issue and you're arguing for ownership

01:12:30

And when I said now remember this is in a debate Crowd half christian half atheist and when

01:12:35

I said explain to me the difference between this is my body Or sorry, my this is my property and this is my body

01:12:43

He froze and there were like three tables of atheists that just went I don't want to answer that point.

01:12:51

Yeah His whole argument was god christian. God's not moral. Yeah, he wants to defend something that is

01:12:58

He just said it's he's saying his atheism is moral without god. That's what he's arguing

01:13:04

And yet he supports something that's not moral, right? So let's uh, well before you go on Of course

01:13:09

I want to say one other thing on that real quick if it's okay because you brought up It's it's sending it the bit

01:13:15

Here's what I want to say every argument in favor of that idea that the baby is not a person but a potential person

01:13:23

There is no rational argument to support that point And so I didn't get into some of the arguments that people bring up to support that point, but they're all bad

01:13:31

So they'll say it's a person It's not a person's a potential person because it's not sentient yet. And I say what do you mean by sentient?

01:13:37

They say, you know like aware of its surroundings I say, okay. Well, is it okay for me to kill you while you're sleeping?

01:13:45

You're not aware of your surroundings when you're sleeping, uh, if the person gets a new car accident, but they're alive But they're not aware of what's going around them because they're in a coma

01:13:53

Is it okay to just kill them because they're in a coma and everybody knows the answer to those questions are no that's a bad argument

01:13:59

It's okay. It's it's not uh, it's a potential person and not a person because it can't live outside of its mother's womb

01:14:06

Well, okay Uh, or because it can't live on its own It's dependent upon the mother and when it comes out of the womb, um my answer back to that It's usually college students and I say apparently you've never been around a baby before Because the baby that's born

01:14:19

Like a baby just after it's born is as dependent on its mother in that moment as it was before it was born

01:14:25

Well, I usually say, you know at 18 you're still dependent on your parents Yeah 25 in our culture.

01:14:30

I mean You know and those are two examples there is no logical argument in defense of that idea that it's not a person

01:14:38

It's a potential person And so what they'll try to do is obfuscate change the meaning of words and muddy the waters

01:14:44

And they'll sometimes try to do obfuscate by redefinition Which is where they that's when they talk about the fetus thing or whatever else is okay when that argument comes up, you know

01:14:53

You've actually probably won the debate Because all they're trying to do is muddy the waters with that There is no strong argument so don't be intimidated by that Stand on the word of god stand on the moral authority of the word of god

01:15:04

Don't sacrifice the baby as a human being from the moment of conception And hold your ground and have that argument show them how every every argument they would advance to support that point is completely and totally

01:15:16

Irrational when someone talks to me about simians and they'll say well, you know, it's not simian. I said, how do you know? Do you remember?

01:15:23

right Because because the bible says john the baptist knew when jesus entered the room

01:15:28

Yeah, he had a knowledge. So he was simian in the womb. Yeah And that's another one of those great passages we can point to there's a lot and the bible talks about the pre -born actually a lot

01:15:38

People don't recognize how much it does But you got john the baptist. Yeah worshiping in the womb like not only is he sending it but he's worshiping in the world

01:15:47

He's recognizing that jesus was there. Yeah, right. And so so Yeah, well, let's let's take a

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01:18:19

Go in the store and pick it up there All right. So with that let's pick up back to picking up some arguments that people make that abortion is just a

01:18:31

Health care issue. It's just about Reproductive rights is abortion.

01:18:37

So so the challenge comes to you as that. This is just a health care issue There's there's no there's no murder of a child involved in this

01:18:44

Yeah, so this is one of those arguments if I can just be frank, which I know you're okay with that If I can just be frank, this is actually you want me to call you frank.

01:18:53

I will but yeah, well, you know uh I'm tempted to do the old preacher joke. They caught me.

01:18:59

Whatever you want. Just don't call me late for dinner, but uh, but um This argument is actually our fault.

01:19:06

This is an argument of our own making uh on the pro -life side of the argument and the reason why

01:19:12

And we run in this argument a lot when we're out at the abortion clinic And when we're doing politics and so forth and the reason why is because a lot of the laws that we've passed

01:19:21

Which have been good intention laws Have been health care laws so like the laws that you know count the number of paper towels that have to be in this dispenser the wideness of the hallways or You have to look at a ultrasound before you have an abortion or even like the 20 -week bans or whatever

01:19:39

All of these laws are in the health care statute at the state level

01:19:45

And so we've actually the law is a teacher and we've actually taught people to believe that abortion is a health care issue

01:19:52

And we need to undo that as christians We need to come back to the bible as our moral foundation for why we're saying that abortion is wrong and how we go about dealing with it and so Um, one of the ways that we address this issue when a person says abortion is a health care issue is we say no

01:20:07

It's not it's murder. That's right. Just call it what it is. It's murder. No, it's a health care issue.

01:20:13

No, i'm sorry It's murder and we haven't dealt with it like murder for a very long time

01:20:18

And um in part that's our fault because we haven't we haven't stood on the word of god And dealt with it as murder and we as christians need to do better And call it what it is and treat it like what the word of god says it is

01:20:31

It's murder. So when a person says abortion is a health care issue, you know, well, give me an example of another health care

01:20:37

Give me another example of a health care issue where the two patients go in And it's intended that only one gets to come out alive.

01:20:46

Yeah, that's not health care. I'm, sorry All right, so we got two two more questions then for you. Yeah, uh, this is the one that I and I saved this one

01:20:55

Uh for later because this is the this is the more difficult one that people have a harder time with Yeah, okay

01:21:01

What about rape and incest? you you're forcing a woman to have to remain pregnant and have to deal with the

01:21:08

You know live with the situation of a rape or incest Yeah, so well first of all, um when it comes to this issue, um

01:21:18

This is one of those I said, let me be frank just a minute ago So this is one of those issues actually calls for a certain amount of gentleness because oftentimes especially if you're on a college campus

01:21:27

Um, you get this question a lot from young women And oftentimes they're bringing it up because they have been raped and sometimes they've been raped and had an abortion

01:21:35

I was dealing with it at purdue with you. Yeah one with that one young girl

01:21:41

Yeah, and so this is not the place from a tactic standpoint if I could just stop and address tactics here really quick This is not the place to bring out your cheekiest argument.

01:21:49

Okay This is the place where you slow down you exercise patience and grace

01:21:55

With the person that you're talking to because you can win them over with this and they have won them over Many times with this when they say what about uh, what about what about rape?

01:22:06

What about incest? What about life of the mother so let me deal with each one of those three issues Um, I my argument that abortion is murder is built upon the moral foundation

01:22:16

That the human being that's in the mother's womb Or that the baby that's in the mother's womb is a human being created in the image of god

01:22:23

And therefore that that baby's life has infinite value and worth Now any one of those three circumstances and i'll talk about life of the mother a little bit more in a minute

01:22:32

Because there's more of a legislative issue there. But any one of those first two circumstances and often the third circumstance

01:22:39

Do not change My moral foundation for why i'm saying abortion is wrong If a woman is raped, that is a terrible circumstance

01:22:48

It's a terrible thing and unfortunately It has happened far too often in our culture

01:22:54

Part of the reason there's all kinds of problems with the me too movement But part of the reason that we have the me too movement is because men have not treated women

01:23:02

Well in our culture for the last 30 years Uh, and we christian men need to repent and we need to step up and do better about protecting the women

01:23:10

That are in our lives our daughters You know sending them off to college where they're unprotected and so forth. I get off my soapbox on that but Abortion is a terrible terrible or uh, well abortion is but rape is a terrible terrible thing

01:23:24

And rape and abortion are actually wrong for the same reason They're wrong because you're taking the body of a human being who's created an image of god

01:23:32

And you're treating that person as though they have no value or worth and so As terrible and sad a thing as rape is

01:23:41

Um, because that baby is still a human being that's creating the image of god It is still wrong to murder that baby even in that circumstance a b

01:23:51

Um, and I get into more of the pragmatic argument There are all kinds of studies out there that show that When a woman has an abortion after she's been raped

01:24:02

That doesn't actually help her get better. It makes her worse It pushes her it pushes her into a deeper darker hole one of the lies that the abortion industry tries to sell to young women is

01:24:13

Okay, you were raped it was a terrible circumstance. They pretend to be a friend Draw them in just have this abortion and all will be well with you.

01:24:21

Just have this abortion You won't have to worry about raising this baby You won't have to worry about dropping out of school or whatever else the case may be

01:24:27

But that just simply isn't the case because god put a conscience in each one of us

01:24:32

And when a woman takes the life of her own child, even in instances of rape her conscience torments her

01:24:39

Because the blood of her innocent child is on her hands and so In instances of rape as terrible as circumstances.

01:24:47

That is That's still a human being created in the image of god that has infinite value and worth and that life needs to be

01:24:52

That life needs to be protected. I take everything I just said about rape and apply it to incest as well

01:24:59

Incest is an ugly terrible thing Um, it exists less so in our culture than it has

01:25:06

In generations past but it still does exist um The thing about incest and rape is that the biblical penalty for rape and incest

01:25:16

Is death and I believe in the death penalty for rapist and I believe in the death penalty for incest

01:25:22

But I do not believe in the death penalty for the baby In though in in either one of those two instances

01:25:28

And so incest I would say much of the same thing about rape about incest as I said about rape.

01:25:33

It's a terrible horrible situation And when we're ministering the gospel to women that have gone through that Um, we need to focus heavily on the doctrine of expiation because they feel dirty

01:25:45

And we need to teach them that the gospel makes them clean And that they haven't done anything morally wrong.

01:25:51

It's not their fault. There's forgiveness and cleansing in jesus christ um

01:25:56

Now what about the life of the mother? This is one that people think is a little bit more complicated. But in a certain sense, it's it's not actually complicated

01:26:03

Why do we say that we don't believe in exceptions for the life of the mother? Well, because when roe versus or when plain parenthood versus casey was passed down and also roe versus wade there was another decision that was passed down on top of that in which the

01:26:17

Supreme court ruled on what constitutes life of the mother And the supreme court essentially determined that life of the mother can be virtually anything

01:26:26

It can be she has a hangnail. It can be she's depressed Yeah, she got kicked out of her house It could be any number of things that counts as life of the mother

01:26:35

So anytime a state adds a life of the mother exception in a piece of legislation

01:26:41

Basically what they're doing is they're leaving the door wide open for abortion to continue on demand

01:26:47

In their state and there are some states where these well -intentioned laws like alabama passed an abortion ban

01:26:52

That had a huge exception for life of the mother And the problem is basically what you're doing is you're creating a backdoor abortion industry

01:26:59

You're allowing the abortion industry to continue and what you're going to see is you're just going to see Whereas right now the instances of abortion to protect the life of the mother are very small

01:27:09

It's less than one percent of all abortions What you're going to see is you're going to see that percentage grow because now the only way a woman can have an abortion

01:27:15

Is if she has one of these one of these exceptions for life of the mother Let me just ask a question with that.

01:27:21

Uh You know if you have a case where the mother's life is at stake and I mean that's what life of the mother should be

01:27:26

Yeah She is going to die you have a baby who is uh, you know, there's a cases where you have the baby will will implant in the

01:27:37

Not in the uterus but within the fallopian tube. Yeah So if that baby continues to grow there the mother will die.

01:27:45

Yeah Those instances do arise they're very rare, but they do arise and the question comes

01:27:50

Well, what do we what are we saying? That should what are we as as people who want to put a ban on abortion without a life of the mother exception?

01:27:56

For example, what do we say should happen in those? Situations and what when you're talking about an ectopic pregnancy in in over 90 percent of those situations

01:28:07

The baby's already dead when it's been discovered in the fallopian tubes. And so in that case, that's not actually an abortion um

01:28:15

In the cases where the life of the mother may be in danger Um because she's pregnant so like for example an instance where a mother

01:28:25

Has cancer and she needs To take certain medicine, but that medicine will kill the baby, you know something like that We've seen those cases.

01:28:33

What do we think that doctors ought to do in that situation? Well, we think that doctors ought to treat the mother and the baby as though they have two patients

01:28:41

And they ought to try to do everything that they possibly can to keep that baby inside of that mother For as long as humanly possible

01:28:48

So that that baby has the right that has the opportunity the best possible chance Of survival and at the point when that baby can no longer be inside of that mother

01:28:58

Then you deliver the baby and you provide that baby with whatever life -saving care that you can

01:29:04

And by the way, that's not considered an abortion when that happens. That's a delivery

01:29:09

Nobody considers that an abortion. It doesn't even count as an abortion in the abortion statistics you

01:29:16

And so, you know if she's 20 weeks 21 weeks 22 weeks You treat the baby as though the baby's life has infinite value and worth

01:29:23

But the mother's life also has infinite value and worth and if they're they're both gonna die

01:29:28

Right, if you just leave the baby in there, they're both gonna die So what you do is what we're saying is that you should give the baby the best possible chance

01:29:37

Don't just treat the baby like the baby's life doesn't matter And you say well, how do laws deal with that?

01:29:42

There's already supreme court rulings and there's already laws in place When a law passes will we treat abortion like murder, okay

01:29:52

Abortion will be treated like every other murder Which means that in people say those situations the woman's going to be prosecuted for murder

01:30:00

There's not a prosecutor on the planet that is going to prosecute that woman for murder

01:30:06

Laws that treat abortion like murder doesn't they don't mean that every woman that has an abortion or every person that's involved in abortion

01:30:13

Ever should be prosecuted for murder. They treat abortion like murder where there is an investigation.

01:30:18

It's done And it's up to the prosecutor and the investigators to determine what should happen next

01:30:24

And so we we're not proposing that people that are in those types of situations Should be prosecuted with murder or anything like that when we say we're trying to take the life of the mother exception out

01:30:35

We're not saying we want women Who whose lives are in danger to die on the table for the sake of just not having an abortion?

01:30:41

That's not what we're saying. We're not cruel. We don't hate women any of that. All of those things are lies

01:30:47

We're saying that the life of the baby should be treated as though that baby's life has value and worth It should be protected

01:30:54

At whatever degree that it can be protected while you also preserve and care for the life of the mother So all right, and that is a complicated issue because there are there are

01:31:04

Situations where unfortunately you deliver the baby at a certain point and the baby doesn't make it but that's not an abortion

01:31:11

Yeah, like an abortion and sometimes people will refer to the fact that you do have what we would call an abortion

01:31:17

That is not you know, you lose the child in the womb and it's not due to any anything and we don't you know so That happens, uh drew says this every time

01:31:28

I go to say something either andrew or darren say it before I could finish typing So the reason for that is because there's there's this delay by the time you see it.

01:31:38

We've already said it Yeah, that's right. We're stealing it from you brother. Yeah Here's the last question pastor darren that that we hear uh

01:31:48

And and i'm saving this for last because this is one that I think has actually the least

01:31:54

Argument so I gave the last one was the hardest argument for us to deal with This is the easiest. This is the one that like makes no sense type of argument.

01:32:01

Yeah Men shouldn't have the right to say what a woman could do with her body

01:32:08

So this is where you this is the sharp argument right there's a couple different ways you can handle this one the first my favorite is

01:32:15

Which I think is your favorite i'm going to see if my if your favorite is my favorite my favorite is to say did you?

01:32:22

Assume my gender Yes, well and that's what I did with the woman at the grocery store

01:32:28

When she made the thing I said I said, excuse me, how I said, how dare you assume my gender?

01:32:34

Yeah, and she looked at me incredulously and was like, you know, you're a man But you don't

01:32:41

You know, which which just goes say she wants to push the liberal agenda, but she knows she doesn't buy into the the liberal agenda

01:32:47

Yeah, well because again that goes back to you can't actually live consistently with that worldview liberals are constantly guilty

01:32:54

The hard thing for liberals is and then i'll give a couple other answers to this question The really hard thing for liberals is that they have the misfortune of having to live in the world that god created you know

01:33:06

They can say whatever they want to say, but they still have to live in this world that god created so they're constantly going around doing and saying inconsistent things because This is the world god created they can't help it so Yeah, we live in a day.

01:33:20

That's a good. Yeah, truce is we live in a day where people think men can have babies. So Yeah, right.

01:33:27

Exactly. That's I thought I thought that you uh, I thought you people didn't believe that gender was binary Yeah Uh, there are other answers that you can give though.

01:33:35

Um, I would say You know roe versus wade was handed down by nine men Yeah, that that's that's the that is my number one answer because when they say that Because that's what

01:33:44

I said to that woman. She's when she said it, you know after she was incredulous What made her walk out was

01:33:49

I said ma 'am you you think that that men shouldn't decide and she said no I said seven men voted.

01:33:56

Yes for your right to abortion Well, there were nine there but you know, there were seven that voted for us So so you should be against abortion until women

01:34:05

Support it right and that's it. It's like irrational The other thing if i'm trying to have a serious conversation with the person

01:34:13

And i'll say you know what? Um as a man God says that it's my duty to protect the innocent and therefore

01:34:19

I have a not only do I have the ability But I have the responsibility To speak up on behalf of the pre -born and that's why i'm here doing what i'm doing

01:34:28

And if it's a man that i'm talking to I say especially if it's a man, that's uh, because men will say that to you

01:34:34

They'll say well you shouldn't have any say about this You're not a woman and usually the men who say that to you are the men who just bought their girlfriend to the abortion clinic

01:34:41

Yeah to go murder their baby and I that's when I say I have a duty to protect the innocent and so do you and you should go in there

01:34:48

You should go in there. You should be a man And go in there and save your baby Um, and you know the idea that I mean women speak into things that have to do with men

01:34:59

All the time. So that's just that whole way of thinking is just inconsistent. So Yeah, yeah

01:35:06

And and you know, one of the things that you end up seeing with it is The the reason we made the argument that middle one is the fact that they're saying the men shouldn't have the right

01:35:17

To decide what a woman can do, but it was men That made that that gave them that right?

01:35:23

Yeah, and and that's the thing with it is when they make that argument They don't realize they haven't thought it through to realize that your arguments already flawed

01:35:31

Yeah, because women didn't give themselves this right men did right?

01:35:38

And so that becomes the the the thing that you end up seeing with it and so um You know,

01:35:44

I mean this is I I hope this has been helpful for folks Uh, because these are going to be the these are the arguments that we're going to hear.

01:35:52

Yeah You're each of these arguments. I mean darren you've been doing abortion ministry for a long time

01:35:58

Have you have you gone out and and not heard at least one or two or all of these?

01:36:04

Yeah, we get these arguments, uh regularly there's one other one that i'll point out and then one other thing

01:36:10

I want to say about that last argument too is Um, it's a marxist concept that women have different rights than men

01:36:17

Um, if that makes sense Yeah Our belief is that we all have the same rights that come from who we are that doesn't mean that men and women are

01:36:28

There's no hierarchy in marriage or whatever else the case may be That's a separate discussion

01:36:34

But we all as human beings create an image of god have the same negative rights as everybody else

01:36:40

Men and women all have in in that regard. We have the same rights Women do not have rights that men don't have and men don't have rights that women

01:36:50

Do have none of that. That's not a thing. That's a social marxist way of thinking about rights

01:36:56

And if I really want to get into it with a person If I want to have a serious conversation with a person about that They're they're postulating positive rights oftentimes when they say that woman has a positive right to an abortion

01:37:08

And we're saying no the baby has the negative right to not be murdered The baby has the right essentially not to be messed with or another way of saying that is the baby has the right to live um, and so you could get into a serious argument there if you wanted to but what i've noticed when

01:37:23

I get into that discussion Especially on college campuses and so forth is the young people that say these sort of things just haven't been equipped to even have that discussion

01:37:31

They don't even know that they're postulating positive rights versus negative rights, but it's a good opportunity to educate them the other thing that's interesting the other argument

01:37:40

I get which I bring up here is It's legal I get that a lot. You'll hear that a lot if you go out

01:37:46

I'm sure you probably heard it when you're out at the abortion clinic and say well It wouldn't be it would be illegal if it were wrong

01:37:53

I don't know The whole thing that is the very people who say that Are the ones out there protesting outside of kavanaugh's house tonight?

01:38:02

Yeah, right, right? Because because they they the whole thing the whole reason they're upset with it is because it's going to be made illegal

01:38:11

And that means that it's wrong So many i'm glad you brought that up So many inconsistencies are being exposed with the supreme court decision with regard to the left

01:38:21

You got like for example, you got joe biden saying he's going to do something I don't know if you saw this or not.

01:38:27

You got joe biden saying that he's going to do something with a uh, with an executive order on abortion if The supreme court overrules roe versus wade.

01:38:37

It's like what if a republican president which republicans are cowards That's part of the problem. But what if a republican president said just by virtue of the signing of my pin

01:38:46

I'm going to overturn roe versus wade Liberals would lose their mind. Yeah, here's joe biden.

01:38:52

Well, that's exactly how he's been doing everything though. Yeah Well, then so the other inconsistency is you got governors like newsom in california saying well

01:39:00

Even if they overturn roe versus wade, we're gonna you know His thing was he thought maybe the supreme court might criminalize abortion nationwide.

01:39:08

He said if they do we're gonna defy it and really that That's one of the things that hits me at the gut when talking about inconsistencies

01:39:16

Because you got all these progressive governors out there saying we're ready to disobey the supreme court

01:39:21

If they say abortion is going to be criminalized, which isn't what the decision says Yeah, because it's going back to narrative matters.

01:39:28

And this was this was a question I did want to ask you before we wrapped up Was if roe versus wade is overturned?

01:39:36

Yeah Does that mean abortion is illegal? No, and especially if you go read kavanaugh's decision

01:39:43

There are three things that the supreme court could have done or four things the supreme court could have done with abortion They could have criminalized it.

01:39:49

They could have passed down a decision that said we messed up Abortions illegal nationwide. That's not what this opinion said

01:39:56

The second thing they could have done is they could have left it in place This opinion doesn't say that the third thing they could done and i'm still concerned that they might do

01:40:04

Is cut out a sliver for more incremental legislation without actually overturning it

01:40:10

The fourth thing they can do is they can overturn it and send it back to the states That's what the opinion that was written does it overturns roe versus wade and sends the decision back to the states

01:40:21

So what's going to happen if if the supreme court overturns roe versus wade, which I think they should

01:40:26

It was a lawless decree and they never should have passed to begin with so they should overturn roe versus wade

01:40:31

But even if they do We're still going to have to do the same work We've been doing for the last seven or eight years

01:40:37

At the state level trying to pass legislation that bans abortion at the state level

01:40:42

It will move a big hurdle out of the way or as I like to say it'll move a big excuse out of the way

01:40:47

Because there was no reason why states shouldn't have banned abortion before roe versus wade was overturned just like you said

01:40:55

Was wisconsin right to defy the fugitive slave act? and nullify

01:41:00

Slavery in their state and the answer to that question is yes If you answer that question, no, then you got a whole lot of problems from a historical standpoint if you say yes then states always should have had laws that made abortion illegal, but Praise god.

01:41:14

The supreme court looks to be poised to correct its decision. So it's going to take away a big excuse It's going to remove a big hurdle

01:41:20

But we're still going to have to do a lot of work at the state level now to pass laws at the state level that criminalize abortion in states like indiana and georgia and texas and You know

01:41:31

Is that they would just criminalize abortion? and that That would have been the right thing to do they

01:41:37

I mean they should have they should Make the argument as you've made here throughout right that this is

01:41:43

It's a human body a human being and it has human rights Yeah, the right thing to do would be

01:41:49

I believe the right and there's disagreements from a strategic standpoint and also from a political standpoint

01:41:55

I do believe that the supreme court should not just reverse its decision, but should declare abortion

01:42:01

To be a criminal act. Yep in in and they people say well, you need a law to do that There's already laws.

01:42:07

There's federal laws that ban murder. So We don't need a new law actually. Yeah all they need to do is is identify that Scientifically, and I know we got one justice that you know can't define a woman because she's not a biologist

01:42:21

So she makes she should she should just step out of she's disqualified from this, you know

01:42:27

Even if she she was in the decision, she's not but if she was she should disqualify herself because she's not a biologist

01:42:33

Yeah, she can't figure out what woman is but but based on the science they should what they should do is identify that A human in the womb is a human and has human rights and therefore that's it

01:42:48

I mean if they have human rights, you can't murder them yeah, so, um So my friend bradley pierce who is the president of abolish abortion texas and also president of the foundation to abolish abortion

01:43:00

Wrote a brief Um to the he wrote a friend of the court an amicus brief to the supreme court

01:43:08

Back when the case was being argued to that effect essentially to that effect He basically said and he also said the supreme court had no business telling the states that they couldn't ban abortion to begin with They were outside of their constitutional jurisdiction

01:43:20

I'm thankful to see them reverse course on that that they should it would be within their constitutional right to ban abortion

01:43:28

Um, but i'm thankful at least that they're going to give the states the opportunity to do it

01:43:33

Lord willing if they haven't changed their mind conservatives are cowards I mean, I never cease to be amazed at the cowardice of conservatives

01:43:40

So i'm not taking for granted that that decision that we originally read Is actually going to be the one that gets passed down we need to pray for cavanaugh

01:43:48

We need to pray for alito all those guys that were because the chief justice who's a snake

01:43:54

John roberts is trying to convince all of them to change direction So he doesn't want to ban abortion

01:44:01

He wants to do the the worst thing that could happen is if they passed a decision that said they left the the the burden clause in place

01:44:14

And said but you can ban abortion at 15 weeks or whatever it is The reason that would be the worst thing that could happen is because the pro -life movement will celebrate it as a huge win

01:44:21

Even though less than seven percent of all the abortions done in the united states happen after 15 weeks

01:44:27

They're still celebrated as a huge win and the pro -abort movement will celebrate as a huge win and both sides will raise a bunch

01:44:33

Of money, but guess what babies are going to continue to be murdered. That's right. That's the worst case scenario

01:44:39

The best case scenario that I see actually happening is if that original opinion that was written actually comes down Yeah, and I think it would if they don't do that They're setting themselves a bad precedent where you know, like for the conservatives.

01:44:54

I hope they realize If they don't stick with what they did Then every time there is a something before the court.

01:45:03

They're not getting any sleep Right because because this is you know, they're not it's illegal to protest outside of the house of of You know one of the supreme court justices.

01:45:14

It's illegal both at a federal level and and the local level so the fact that they're allowing it these guys should realize like If we don't like they what they should do

01:45:24

What would i'd love to see them do is say, you know come out and say we've changed our minds We realize that this is a human being and has human rights and it is murder

01:45:34

Right and we're doing this because of all the protests We thank the protesters for helping us to take the bold steps

01:45:42

You know what would happen then they won't be so bold to do it the next time, right? Yeah, you know that is if they if they do change their mind at this point

01:45:51

They're setting themselves up to be but what'll happen. Here's the thing Okay.

01:45:56

So who are the police that are supposed to enforce those laws with regards to the supreme court? This is in washington dc

01:46:02

The mayor is a liberal They're protesting conservative conservative supreme court opinion right now

01:46:07

Say they reverse course and they don't overturn roe versus wade and then a bunch of conservatives show up to protest

01:46:15

And you know what? That'll be. Oh, we have another what do they call it? We have another insurgency on our hands, you know doing the self same thing that liberals are doing right now

01:46:25

And so if if you're smart if you're a supreme court justice and you're smart, you're gonna hold the line

01:46:30

Otherwise you're gonna every time a controversial decision comes up you're you're gonna you're not getting any sleep

01:46:36

Yeah, right. Exactly people are gonna protest and you know every time. Yeah, right So hopefully i'd love to see i've been praying for those guys by name on a regular basis

01:46:45

Praying that they hold the line But the reality is and i'll praise god if the supreme court overturns roe versus wade

01:46:51

I'll also have to eat a lot of crow because to be honest Frankly between you and me i've been saying the supreme court isn't going to do it for five years now

01:46:59

But i'm happy to be wrong if the supreme court does overturn it. I'll happily admit that i'm wrong, but we're still gonna have a lot of work on our hands even

01:47:10

The the abolitionist movement doesn't end Yeah with overturning roe versus wade and that's the thing and and the and and here's the reality my prediction

01:47:21

They overturn roe versus wade We are going to see a whole lot of christians That are going to be against the the movement of making

01:47:32

Abortion unthinkable. Yeah Hey, they overturned roe versus wade. Isn't that enough?

01:47:38

I mean we're we're going to be hearing it now from our own side That's my prediction. Um Well, I would say this earlier too if I can

01:47:46

I mean when you're out there on the streets You know as well as I do the first people that come up and attack you are the professed christians

01:47:51

It's not really the atheists. They're the first ones that come up Those same christians are gonna I mean we're already seeing it from the ethics and religious liberty commission, right?

01:47:59

I mean if you've been reading their articles, they've been putting out for the last couple of months since this whole thing happened You know, they're already

01:48:05

Let's not be divisive divisive over this issue. Yeah I'm, sorry People are killing people.

01:48:12

You know what I mean? Like That's and we shouldn't divide over it. No, no, no. Yeah, right. Come on guys So there is we're gonna see if if if roe versus wade gets overturned

01:48:22

We're going to separate the voice from the men I believe that to be true I also will say if roe versus wade is not overturned in this case

01:48:31

All these years the leaders of the pro -life movement have been telling us We just need to get the right amount of supreme court justices and we can overturn it and that's the strategy

01:48:39

Well now you have it you have the supreme court justices. You got all the supreme got the supreme court justices you want

01:48:46

Mind you republicans have dominated the supreme court for the last 60 years now We've already had two different times republican dominated courts

01:48:55

They've handed down pro -abortion decisions But at what point do we say I mean if they hand down a decision here that doesn't overturn roe

01:49:03

At what point do you say? Okay We need to abandon that strategy. We have to do something different and the thing we have to do that's different Is criminalize it at the state level and define it

01:49:13

That's what we have to do Um, and and I think even if the supreme court rules wrong and they don't overturn roe

01:49:20

I do think we're gonna have a huge opportunity to pull people into the abolitionist movement Who are going to be disenchanted with that strategy that hasn't worked for the last 40 years?

01:49:29

And i've been saying and I continue to say when that happens We don't stand over those people and say I told you so and I don't think there are a lot of abolitionists that actually want

01:49:37

To do that. I think what we want to do is we want to embrace those people in with open arms And say welcome to the movement.

01:49:43

Let's work together to ban abortion at the state level I think there might be some that want to stand over and say see

01:49:49

I don't just know I hope not. I don't know Maybe a few But I think the movement as a whole

01:49:57

There's going to be a lot of people that are like, yes, come on. Yeah, i'm joining. Yeah, I think as a whole So let me just uh put a final comment here from humble clay.

01:50:04

He says, you know that this was helpful indeed enjoyable immensely so uh humble clay and others if you found this helpful if this was encouraging to you if you realize that This battle is coming.

01:50:19

I mean once this Case gets heard, you know, or once we hear the decision

01:50:24

Uh, this is going to be something you need to get in the hands of other christians To be to be ready to give a defense.

01:50:32

So please share this You can share either this the video On the youtube or on odyssey or you can go and share the podcast version

01:50:41

If you don't follow our podcast apologetics live, please do so you don't miss an episode Um, I I know there's some previous episodes that i'm going to get on the backlog um because they you know, they just didn't make it into the podcast, uh version, but we're we're gonna

01:50:56

We're we're gonna have that don't worry. Um, so Uh darren, I appreciate you coming on.

01:51:02

Maybe the audience can just give a thank you There you go

01:51:11

I don't know who all those people that were making those Uh You know nice comments where I really appreciate that means a lot to me.

01:51:17

My brain isn't really working right now So I was I was gonna say at the beginning, you know that uh, you you actually call me friend

01:51:24

But you know you have had brain damage twice. So yeah Two times in the last three months.

01:51:30

Yeah. Yes So, I mean we we we have we have to question your judgment there haven't Well, my wife keeps telling me that i'm gonna go back to normal Uh, and I keep saying you keep telling she's telling me that i'm normal So my wife admitted that i'm normal.

01:51:45

No, i'm just admitting that you once were normal. That's right Yeah, so the the joke is that my brain never really worked right to begin with so that's maybe why we're friends.

01:51:53

I don't know That would that would explain it well, yeah

01:51:59

So I appreciate coming on. Thank you for having me. Yeah, and I think that you you really offered folks some very helpful

01:52:06

Argumentation to be able to how to defend against these different claims that people are going to make And so folks,

01:52:12

I hope that you'll I you know, maybe this is one of those episodes You got to go back and re -listen. You got to take some notes, but i'm i'm telling you now you're going to need

01:52:21

Everything that was discussed today Because once this once this ruling comes out

01:52:28

If you thought you were having to deal with it in in social media and elsewhere before once they overturn rovers the way this they're gonna

01:52:37

They're gonna ride this through to the election and make this the major issue And and everyone's going to want to shove it in your face.

01:52:44

So you have to be ready with a good defense All right, so so consider doing that I want to give a plea out as the last thing is would you consider supporting us at striving for eternity?

01:52:55

You know covid has been difficult for us Uh, we you know when covid hit we we lost about 60 70 percent of our donations

01:53:02

We've we've recouped some of that but we are we're in need of help If you could give monthly,

01:53:08

I know a lot of people will give us a one -time donation and we appreciate it But we we have monthly expenses and so You know one of the things that's happening right now part of striving fraternity is to go into small churches that can't afford us

01:53:24

That's what we do so Right now thanks to joe biden It is super expensive to travel.

01:53:31

I mean the the flights have tripled And what that means is without your support we cannot help these churches

01:53:39

Our goal is to help and strengthen small churches so that they would grow the reality is the

01:53:46

Christianity in america is based on the small church. The average size of a church is 25

01:53:52

And you go well, uh, mcarthur's church has thousands of people, you know That's right, which means there's there's the majority of churches are under 25 people

01:54:01

And they have a pastor who is trying to preach but he's busy working a side job Being bi -vocational and that has to be his priority

01:54:10

Over the church and he doesn't have the resources doesn't have what he needs to be able to provide that church

01:54:18

With the support that he needs to and so that's where we try to come in come alongside a church and help them out

01:54:25

But we just don't have the resources. We've had to do something. We haven't done in the past just to say no

01:54:31

Because it's just not money in the bank And we don't want to do that and so If you could support us

01:54:38

Please do that. I mean you could support us even you know, like here. Here's a comment from jason cave.

01:54:44

Uh, but Not so much about the issues and the comment but jason is a supporter you see that little icon next to him

01:54:51

That means he's a member through he supports the youtube channel and he's a member through youtube So that's a way you can support us

01:54:58

But the best way is go to strivingforeturning .org slash support and help us on a on a monthly basis

01:55:04

That would really really help us Another thing you do is let us know if you if you want us to come out to your church

01:55:10

Contact us info at strivingforeturning .org. If you you have questions about the show you you

01:55:16

Anything if we could be a help to you contact us at info at strivingforeternity .org

01:55:23

Uh pastor darren, I really appreciate you coming on you came on on short notice And so I appreciate that.

01:55:29

Thank your family for for for letting us have two hours of your time And then i'm supposed to come on.

01:55:34

Thank you, brother I should say your softball team because you know, it's basically what you're working on You got your wife and the softball team there.

01:55:40

That's right nine. I don't know how many you need for softball. We're pretty close How many do you have right now?

01:55:46

We have nine right now. I think that's what you need for a softball team Yep, there you go. Now if I could just all get them to do the same thing,

01:55:52

I don't know Well the age the age brad mean that you're not going to get the infant on the softball field yet, but That's true