Abortion, Is It Biblical?

So it's all that we need. Only sufficient, but the only thing that couldn't be done for okay.

So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing. Is it. Is it the only thing or is it not do you need to be baptized or not? Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient.

It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good.

Welcome to Apologetics Live

Welcome to apologetics live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible. Meet your hosts from striving for eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor Justin Pierce.

We are live. Apologetics live here to answer your Bible questions challenges, whatever you may have for us tonight. We are here. We're up to the challenge you disagree with us. You think that we're wrong about the Bible.

You think that the Bible teaches that abortion is okay? We can handle that discussion. That's we're gonna be here today doing now. I don't have our regular co-hosts. They're all out. But I brought a friend in pastor Darren steed.

How are you, sir? Oh, man, I'm doing good better than I deserve.

I feel bad. That was an awesome intro of all those great co-hosts that you have and today.

Yeah, but I reached out to you because the topic we're dealing with is the topic of abortion which you kind of deal with quite a bit and Let me let me just give the the for folks that are watching or listening.

Why we set this up. I right now don't see anybody backstage, but anyone can go to apologetics live .com and From there you can see you scroll down you'll see the little duck icon for stream yard and that is how you join us.

Go there to join us to to have the discussion now, I'm saying that specifically to one individual on Twitter because this started on I guess I somehow responded to something that James dr. James white was responding to some quote-unquote pastor and the pastor when I responded.

It became a thing where he and I were going back and forth his his I guess Description of himself is is a pastor of some church. And he says he's all Christian all gay all the time. And so that started the discussion it went from there to a couple women that claim they were female pastors.

And so we changed into that topic and then it came to abortion and as we were discussing abortion We had there's one individual who said he was up to the challenge to come on to apologetics live. And so I said good let's do that.

So he won't he was arguing that as a Christian I could hold to a view of abortion and You're shaking your head. I Don't think I can as a true Christian. Oh wait, that's the no, no true Scotsman fallacy.

No, it's not actually. So when we get to the fallacy section, I'll explain that fallacy tonight. That'll be the one we can explain but we are hoping he'll come in. But as often is the case So often is the case many people want to challenge me tell me how wrong I am and I say good let's do it live and You guys see them all here, right?

It's just Darren and I all by ourselves. I I don't see them around. Don't don't know what happened to them it seems to be the case every time right that This is what what ends up happening. You know, we we look for him and this is what we we find just Yeah.

Yeah, crickets is all we get we're waiting you know, hopefully hopefully he'll come and show up but Something tells me that may not be the case. But if not, we're gonna be able to still discuss the topic.

So let me first start off passionate Aaron. This is not your first time on the show, but for folks To know could you explain, you know, I reached out to you with the issue of abortion. Could you explain your ministry that you have with Operation Save America?

Yes, so I'm the assistant national director with Operation Save America. So Operation Save America is a ministry That started it has its roots in the rescue movement of the 1980s and 90s and that was back before the face at Christians were blockading the door of abortion clinics and things like that and That's how operation rescue got started.

Now essentially what our ministry is all about doing is Equipping Christians to engage in Kingdom ministry outside of abortion clinics on the sidewalks pleading with mothers not to go through with the decision to Slaughter their children out in the culture trying to help Christians people who profess to be Christians understand the issue of abortion and why it is.

Why it is a issue that Christians should engage in and how we have a duty and an obligation to speak upon a behalf the pre-born and then also going to legislators and calling on them to pass legislation that puts an immediate and total end to abortion and.

So that's what Operation Save America is all about. I'm blessed to have the opportunity to be the assistant national director, and I love the ministry. You guys can check out operationsaveamerica .org to find out more about what we do there.

But it's an equipping ministry just like striving for eternity is an equipping ministry. We seek to equip Christians with the tools that they need to help put an end to the slaughter of the pre-born from a gospel centric Kingdom mind standpoint.

Yeah, and just humble clay speaking of that pastor says sounds like he's all lost. Yeah, I just posted something that someone said is gonna get me into Facebook. Up jail I said. I said quote gay Christianity unquote is all gay and no Christianity.

That's right. And that's really what it comes down to they they do that and they. You know, it's like I don't see them doing this was with Islam. Yeah, you know, they're not going into mosques saying we're a gay Muslim.

Yeah.

Because they'll throw you off the building. Well, that's what I'm gonna say in some places in the world that take you out and throw you off of a tall building. Yeah, I think something like that. I got a funny story about that if I could throw it in here with Operation Save America.

We were doing some street ministry at it on a college campus in I think it was Arkansas and while we were there it was World Hijab Day and. So, you know what a hijab is, right? Yes. The covering that women wear on their heads and what was really funny is all these high school dudes.

Were putting hijabs on their head to celebrate Islam and so forth. We had a really funny conversation with several because we say oh you think Islam is a great religion. They say yeah, it's a religion of peace.

And we said, you know if you were in a Muslim country wearing that thing on your head. They would throw you off the roof of a building. Yeah, like a woman. Yeah. We're all you know, taking it back and flustered and things like that.

So the average American that's pro-muslim doesn't have the first idea.

What Muslims actually believe what Islam teaches? Yeah, right. So in in our in the news section Tonight what I want to deal with is an attempted murder of justice Kavanaugh now this if you are watching CNN or Fox News or any of those you may not have seen this.

This is not a high in the list. Why because some guy from California came all the way across the state. Because he wanted to kill justice Kavanaugh. Because well, he took the words of Democrats literally when We had Chuck Schumer who threatened Kavanaugh and others that if they go through with this There's a whirlwind coming.

They're gonna they're gonna pay, you know for this decision. And someone took that to heart. Now it's interesting because this is in light of what right now as we're recording this live there is the the Democrat show going on for January 6th where they're going to be.

Trying to you know put on a show saying that Trump somehow it's all Trump's fault. He riled people up to do this riot, which was really just a photo shoot. I mean, I'm sorry, but look at the pictures.

Everyone's in the Capitol. They're within the velvet ropes. They're taking pictures and Selfies in the they're on a tour. Yeah, they're not rioting. Yeah, that looks nothing like what we saw for a year and a half in every city in America with Black Lives Matter.

Okay, there was no fires burning. There was no weapons. There were none of that. And so they want to say that because Trump said to go peacefully protest that was code word. For you know take over the Capitol.

Well, Chuck Schumer said far worse. We have other Democrats that said, you know with the abortion possibly being overturned. It is Roe versus Wade. That that is war. Well, you had someone that he got fed up with Kavanaugh because he said he also know Pastor Darren.

I'm trying to figure this out. This is this is the left and I know Logic need not apply the guy is upset with the recent school shooting and he's upset that Brett Kavanaugh may vote in or decide in a way that he won't that he's gonna Support guns and not support gun control.

So this guy went to Kavanaugh's house with a Gun. Yeah shoot him.

Yeah, this is so what's really interesting about this and a lot of people don't understand this about liberals. Liberals are not actually anti gun. It's just a matter of who has who doesn't doesn't have the guns.

Yes you if you go read Rules for radicals by Solinsky, which I think every Christian should read that book with a discerning eye. One of the things he talks about on there's he says Do we have the guns in our favor?

And if the answer is that question is no then we're anti gun that if we do have the guns in our favor Then we're pro gun if we have numbers in our favor. Are we anti-violence? Yes, if the numbers are against us are we anti-violence.

No, and you know the interest the interesting thing about that whole argument is that Progressives and liberals are quote-unquote anti-gun, but they want the police to have guns, but then they're anti police.

They want to defund the police. You know what? I mean? Like it's a very inconsistent weird way of thinking about the world and the reality is it's it's in there and their estimation. It's about power.

It's about gaining power and then having the people that they control be the only ones that have access to guns. That's the thing. So that's how you can get this guy. Sort of thinking that on the one hand guns are bad.

But on the other hand, I'm gonna use my gun for good and I'm gonna go get this guy.

Well, and that's the whole thing. They always think what they're doing is good. They have the moral superiority because they just are better right and and anything else they do they can. They can murder people.

They could destroy people's lives and it doesn't matter because They're just right. I mean, they're always gonna be right because they're better than us, right?

Yeah, one it's. It's really convenient when you believe in situational ethics. If you believe in situational ethics, you can always be right. Yeah, no matter what's happened. No matter what crazy thing you do.

If you believe ethics Bidden themselves to your situation and circumstances you can be right all the time. And other people can always be wrong. And that's the reason you never see the left ever apologizing for anything because they believe they don't believe in the fixed morality.

They believe morality is is is. You know that it can mold and bend and so forth. So it's very convenient to believe in situational ethics, you know when you do bad evil things.

So well, this is what I supposed to this some time ago was. I said, you know, the truth doesn't matter. Facts don't matter. It's the narrative that matters and that's what we're seeing in our country right now.

It's the narrative it the narrative can change and it does it. Okay. Hey as long as as long as it gets our agenda, that's all we care about.

Yeah reminds me of which this is old news. Now things stale so quickly in our political environment. But you remember when Hillary Clinton went? I mean she literally went before Congress talking about American CIA agents that lost their lives overseas and said at this point.

What difference does it make? Yeah, in other words, it doesn't help my narrative anymore.

Discard with the lives of these people and let's move on to the next thing. Yeah. No, it's very interesting what happened with that. You know like you you bring that up and so few people we had an investigation with George W Bush.

To who is claiming he he and someone or someone in the administration outed a CIA agent. Who was taken off cover because she kept telling she kept blowing her cover, right? She kept issues making out with her boyfriend at the time in the car and said I'm a undercover CIA agent.

That's what I do for a living. It wasn't very good at her job. But they had to investigate and we spent like three and a half million dollars to figure out who? Leaked the name to Robert Novak the reporter.

And and when Robert Novak could finally win when the gag order was removed. He said that they asked him the first question. Was your source Chris Arminger's and he said yes, then there was no more need to investigate who the source was.

And they played it up like George Bush was behind this and put her life at risk. Well, she was sitting at a desk job here in America. Those six CIA agents that you referred to. Yeah that Obama called them CIA agents were in a Iraqi or sorry Iranian prison.

Yeah. They were being charged with spying on their country and. What did Barack Obama do he called them CIA? They said they were contractors. He blew their cover. Yeah, like really blew their cover while there while their lives are being threatened.

Yeah, but hey narrative matters.

Political Theater, Gaslighting, and the Power of Narrative

Yeah, and that's what it is. I mean when you think about all this discussion and in these different things, it's We live in a country and I mean we're talking about Democrats, there's a lot of evil in the Democratic Party.

Republicans can be bad, too.

There's a lot of political theater that happens, especially on both sides. I like how Dan Bongino says it. He says Republicans may not be the solution to all your problems, but Democrats are the core.

Right. No. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. It's like, you know, there are Republicans in the world that I could vote for, you know. They're good people love the Lord believe in good things. I haven't met a Democrat that I could cast a ballot for especially if they believe in the Democratic platform.

But these these things, you know like the whole thing with December 6th and it was an insurgency and all this other stuff and it's like Are you serious? Like you were talking about earlier. These people are walking in the velvet ropes.

They're taking selfies. You know, like if it was an insurgency It was like the worst one ever in the history of the world. And now you get the Democrats trying to rile people up. Yes Supreme Court and they're there, you know, you got these these.

Virtually, I mean there was there was one night where there were virtually riots happening outside of the Supreme Court you got people threatening the lives of guys like Justice Kavanaugh and so forth and they're not gonna take responsibility for that.

But I want Trump to take responsibility for what happened on December 6th. Which by the way wasn't an insurgency to begin with there are literally Dozens of American citizens with rights. Sitting in prison or jail in Washington DC because they haven't had a trial yet.

Their rights are being trampled on because they went to the they went into the the they went into a government. Government building was paid for by their tax dollars. I'm not saying I agree with everything they did.

I don't. I'm not saying I agree with the way that everybody carried on and so on and so forth. But the whole idea that this is this is an insurgency what happened on December 6th. But this over here, we're stirring up people against the Supreme Court.

This is okay. It's just it's a perfect picture of political theater the the rural.

Yeah, I mean you could see it in the in the fact that you have let's just do a comparison. Black Lives Matter protests. First of January 6th, okay. Black Lives Matter. Burning cities down taking over city streets calling even some of the city streets their own country.

Yeah wanting to defund the police and their purpose as they said is to Overthrow the government system because it's it is racist. Yeah. Versus a bunch of people that wanted a wreak in an audit of the count.

Yeah, I mean which one sounds like it's following the system of democracy. It sounds like January 6th. They wanted democracy. That's what they wanted. Yeah, but but this is a gaslighting. It's you know saying oh look you're these guys are doing it.

They're doing you just tell the lie long enough that people start believing it and that's that's what we have. And that's what you're gonna see on TV on the other channels if you're watching tonight, which I don't recommend.

But well, and I could do you one even better than that. I mean remember in our memory so short in this country. They're gaslighting us because we forget what happened just a few short years ago. I remember when occupy Wall Street Literally took over the capital in Wisconsin.

They took over the capital and they were in the capital if I remember right it was. Several days if not weeks. Occupy Wall Street was literally in the capital and would not allow the state's business to carry and that wasn't considered terrorism at all.

That's we're talking A few hours. Just remember they said that the what made January 6th. So horrible was the fact that this has never been done before. Yeah, right for Brett Kavanaugh's hearings, right?

Yeah, stop they didn't stop the hearings when when a bunch of protesters came in and and did exactly what We're being told now. Here's the one thing folks. Here's the if you need any help with January 6 We're gonna move to the topic of abortion, but here's the one thing what would help me immensely was listening to Ted Cruz right after that go through the timeline why?

Because when you look at the timeline, you know. You end up seeing plenty of videos out there where the police open the doors. They move the barricades open the doors and people started just going in why because they were invited in.

So here's the thing why well because Ted Cruz and a bunch of Republicans who I believe should have stuck to their guns they gave in and caved to the Democrats in the end because they were gonna wait till Arizona got called and They were waiting for that and then they were going to Do a vote for a audit.

I forget it was I think a 20-day order I forget how many days it was but they were gonna do a call for an audit. They had enough votes to do that to call for the audit and and have that procedural done.

So soon as Arizona gets up to do to announce that they're going for Biden. The police come in the Capitol Police come in and remember Pelosi turned down the National Guard that that Trump wanted, right?

I heard that today for the she didn't want the the the extra police that so the the Capitol Police came in and And said they had to move everybody out for their safety and they moved them to a not the the secure location they should have been in a different location.

The problem was they were moved before anybody was in the building. That's a major problem. If you want to know if it was a setup, that's how you know, the the Capitol Police came in and Said we have to move you for your safety because there's people in the building before there were people in the building.

That's a major issue. And then when they moved him a second time, it's when they started having people in the building and They had and they just saw, you know, a couple hundred people in the building and they actually Marched the the Congressmen's Congress people through so they could see the people to to the secure location and then an hour later emptied everyone out and brought them back in to vote and then then they dropped this Thing of the the audit because oh, this is a travesty with it.

What they did was they brought them and they secluded them where they couldn't get any get any news. They're being told there's all this violence and things going on and then they come back and go we got to stick together with Democrats unity.

No, you you just caved in and and the real insurrection happened that day, but it wasn't from those protesters. It was from the Democrats who? Manipulated to shut down an audit. Because if you saw you haven't seen 2 ,000 mules yet, but if you've seen that from what I understand.

It gives compelling evidence that there was tons of fraud. Not necessarily that we know how the votes went because we can't get the audit. Because you know Democrats every time they lose an Election, it's it's not legitimate.

I mean we now know from the fact that you know Michael Sussman, this is a pretty political show so far, but Michael Sussman had you know. Was Hillary Clinton's lawyer that they that created this whole Russia collusion thing that Trump supposedly was colluding with the Russians.

We now know that Barack Obama had signed off to say that it was Russians hacked the DNC Six days before the FBI got the images. Where they made that conclusion?

It goes back to something I said a little while ago and I'm just gonna say it again I say it as many times as it applies. So Alinsky rules for radicals. What do the Democrats do? What do progressives liberals do.

Whatever evil thing they're getting ready to do they accuse you of doing it. They do it and that's exactly what happened because he creates confusion. Well, who was it who was colluding with Russia? Was it the Democrats or was it the Republicans?

Well, it was actually the Democrats. The evidence show that we're colluding with Russia. But they accused with the dusty air and all that stuff. They accused Trump and so forth and they accused him before the supposed.

And I'm not even a big Trump guy like, you know, I tell people all the time I do my work mostly at the state level. I travel around talk to state representatives, but a lie is a lie no matter what level.

Yeah, but it happens that and in this case it's like if any time you see I always do this any time I see Progressives or liberals accusing conservatives of a thing a mean evil thing. There's a chance that conservatives are guilty of it.

We're sinners too. We do bad things. But I always want to say let's watch in six months and see what they're gonna do.

Abortion, Personhood, and the Pro-Life Argument

Yeah, I mean right think about what they were. Think about what we were hearing over and over from the Democrats before the election. Yeah, they were calling for fighting on the streets. They were calling for violence if the vote didn't go the right way.

Yeah, Maxine waters telling people approach approach these congressmen. Approach these senators. Run them out of the restaurants, you know.

And then people do that and they're like, well, you can't blame that on me so We mentioned a couple of logical fallacies here. You mentioned gaslighting. So let's deal with the no true Scotsman fallacy and the gaslighting.

So What is a no true Scotsman fallacy the way this came about was the idea that? Someone in Scotland would say no no Scotman Scotsman would eat I forget what it was but you know eat something with their haggis.

And and someone goes well, there's you know Joe over there. He's a Scotsman and he's eating that with his haggis. It was like well, no true Scotsman would do that. So the the argument the fallacy is to say When you claim that something somewhere, well, they're not a true whatever.

Unless they hold to your position. Yeah, that is the no true Scotsman fallacy. What is not the no true Scotsman fallacy? Is if you actually have a definition of what it means to be a Scotsman like having Scottish citizenship, right if you if that defines you as a Scotsman then To say that so if you say for example That a true Scotsman owns land in Scott in Scotland.

That makes you a true Scotsman if that's the definition of a Scotsman so to say well if I own land. Well, no, no true Scotsman wouldn't own land. Well, you can actually define that. Okay, and so you you if there's a definition like What is a true Christian?

Well, the Bible defines what a Christian is. So we have a definition to it. So when you say well somebody Who celebrates their sin is not a true Christian and Bill go. Oh, that's not that's a no true Scotsman fallacy.

No, it's not because the scripture is clear that a Christian won't celebrate their sin. They repent of that. So that is a definitional thing so. That's one fallacy. The other fallacy you mentioned is gaslighting.

That's actually from a movie I think in the 50s or 60s where a guy kept changing the lights in his house and Telling his wife the lights were bright when they weren't and he kept doing it every day and by doing it over and over and over again.

Eventually, she went crazy and started to believe the lie. We saw this Bill Clinton was president. They just kept telling a lie long enough and they kept it's like tell the lie long enough people will believe it.

That's what gaslighting is and that's what the media is doing. They're telling the lie long enough so you could believe it and and you come to chaos. I mean, here's here's what KT says. Could you guys also talk about how bees aren't fish.

Now, I don't know if you've seen this one. Okay, so in California, this is a case of gaslighting, right? You can now call bees fish. So I guess what it is is they had laws on the books to to protect certain fish as endangered animals.

They wanted to protect the bees under that. So what they did is just say bees are a form of fish. Totally changing the taxonomy of how we categorize bees and fish totally different families. Yes, but in this in this age of hey It it's however you identify.

So maybe these identify as a fish now. Here's the problem people want to say that's ridiculous Bees can't identify as a fish. Yeah, but that is a problem because now of a sudden. Guys can't identify as girls either and so they want the one so what do they got to do?

They this this is where the gaslighting takes effect because people are so tied in to the one narrative. To keep the narrative because narrative is what's important to keep the narrative. They will accept the most ridiculous things in the world.

Yeah.

That's our society right now is particularly the way our society is structured right now, it's particularly susceptible to gaslighting for two reasons. Number one because of the Marxist what you're just talking about bees the whole thing with bees and fish.

With with with a social Marxist worldview. It's some people don't like that term social Marxist call it. Whatever you want to call it. It's the sort of the new the it's it's the the concept that there is no truth and words can mean whatever I want them to mean so I can just pour my Definition into the meaning of words and I can use words to suit my purpose.

And so this is this is what kids are being taught in school. It's the same thing with the bees and the fish. It's the same thing with men and women we could define all the terms. We can redefine all the terms we can make the words words mean whatever want them to mean.

Well if you think about if you if you embrace that worldview if a person embraces that and Then their understanding of the meaning of language is only ever informed. By certain influential people in the culture.

They can be essentially convinced to believe anything. So that's the first reason our society is susceptible to gaslighting. The second reason our society is particularly susceptible to gaslighting is because lies spread very quickly in a culture.

You know, we have we have social media. We have the advent of the meme. We have you know blogs podcasts so forth and that has its strengths and its weaknesses. One of the weaknesses is now anybody with a microphone and an internet connection can start a can start a podcast or start a blog or Create a page on Facebook and start start producing memes and so forth.

And what happens is it's it's a blessing because that allows good ideas to spread quickly. But it's also a curse because it allows the technology itself is neutral. But it allows bad ideas to spread very quickly and so because of that reality because of the embracing of a Marxist view of truth and a Marxist understanding of language he who defines wins and people just get to certain influential people define the terms as they want them to be defined and Then that narrative goes out and it spreads far and wide very quickly and people grab hold of it and their minds are their minds Are changed very easily because there's no fixed.

There's not even a fixed concept of language let alone a fixed concept of morality or a fixed concept of truth and so we live in a society where it is very easy for a small number of people to Gaslight a very large number of people because people don't think anymore.

They're not thinkers. They're just it's it's very easy to just sort of twist and mold truth and make it whatever you want. That's right.

So let's let's get into another gaslighted issue is abortion. Drew here is saying I'm guessing Andrews debate opponent chickened out drew. Are you surprised? I am NOT anymore. I mean people I I get all these keyboard warriors that that.

They are really strong behind the keyboard. You know, but then again When you come here and and supposedly I'm the coward I was telling you this pastor Darren on that thread on Twitter. These they were all ganging up basically this pastor, you know, it says he's a pastor.

That's the gay pastor. He he was like I have to mute you because I just it's not good for me to be in this discussion. So, can you others help out? That's just like hey, I'm gonna play the victim and let everyone else jump on him, right.

We had a one-on-one conversation. So then I had a whole bunch of people so they were actually going this guy looks like a professional troll. He's a troll. Look his he says he's got a he's a pastor in a sermon a seminary that doesn't exist anymore.

You know probably never did exist. No. Yes, my seminary did close down some years ago. Yep, and so what? But at least one of the guys that well he does have him he has been online doing ministry for over a decade.

Yeah, no, so it's like he does have history. But it did it did maybe it's interesting that they they I guess expect that there's paid trolls maybe on the left. That's what they have. But yeah, no I'm not I'm not a paid troll.

But the interesting is they all of them were saying how I can't oh and I was supposed to do this. One of the things they says I can't argue myself out of a wet paper bag and pastor Justin wanted to see me do that not that I was supposed to do that, but I'm like, hey if I'm such an easy knockover opponent.

Here you are apologetics live .com go to the website click the link to to join and let's let's have at it. But you know as humble clay is saying keyboard warriors equal mom's basement dweller. And that's actually you know, it's interesting.

You say that humble clay because I said to this guy I said you're not gonna chicken out. I mean, you're not like playing video games in mom's basement. Are you? He never To challenged that he was playing video games in mom's basement.

I think I think I might have been right on that one. So this is what it will do Pastor Darren. Since since my debate opponent didn't show up, right? I will be the debate opponent and I will challenge you with some questions.

Okay, so So I am I I'm gonna I'm gonna identify as a mindless robot. You're gonna be a B To be. So Pastor Darren, look you you just have to understand that when you are against abortion You are against a woman's right to choose I mean a woman should have a right to choose what she wants with her body.

What say you yeah.

Well there the first thing I usually say when somebody says that to me is that there is a certain sense in which I am Against a woman's right to choose. I'm against a woman's right to choose a lot of things.

I'm against a woman's right to choose to drive her car through my living room. I'm against a woman's right to Do all kinds of things. A woman doesn't have a right to drive her car through my living room.

I'm against a woman's right to drink consume a bunch of alcohol and then get in the car and drive. I'm against and why is that? Why do we have laws against these kinds of things. Because these are things that hurt other people and.

Your right to swing your arm ends at the tip of my nose. So to speak you've heard that phrase before. You you in other words, you don't you have certain rights and those rights are inalienable rights.

They come to you from God. One of them is that you have the right to live. You have the right to be you have the right to go about your Life without a bunch of interference from the governing authorities, whatever else the case may be.

But there's an end to that in the end to that is when you begin to start bringing harm to another person. They other people also have rights and that baby that's in the mother's womb. Has rights it's a human being that baby is a human being.

That's created in the image of God. We find that in Psalm 139 verses 13 to 16 where we see David say to God, you know. You knew me before you conceived me in the womb. You knit me together. We see the intricate detail of God's created order.

We see in Jeremiah 1 5. I'm just looking down at my notes here. So I'm not saying all this from memory. I confess. We see in Jeremiah 1 5 God tells Jeremiah. I knew you before I formed you in the world.