I Get Mail, Geisler Sermon Continued

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And welcome to the dividing line those of you who were here an hour early. What can I say Not gonna do that. We've we've discussed the time zone issue many times before I think we lost our last ally there.

Didn't we the folks in Indiana or Illinois whichever one it was? I think they finally gave up and gave into the pressure Hawaii, I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't think Hawaii does. Oh, well, whatever they would have no reason to for obvious reasons, but yes, we stand firm against the the heresy of playing with time and so Now everybody in the mountain time zone has gotten back with us, which is where the truth is.

Anyways, so here we are on on the divine before we get started today. I wanted to Acknowledge let you know what it's like to be an apologist. I Recently our chat channel attracts some some very interesting people and do the nature of chat channel type stuff.

People can actually come in multiple times from different connections and and things like that. Sometimes people pretend to be things. They're really not we actually had a guy that pretended to be a pastor once remember and he was actually sort of like living In his mother's garage or something over his mother's garage or something like that.

So we've had some interesting stuff. So we have this one poor soul that comes into our chat channel now it's interesting because this person has multiple personality disorder and so one of the multiples comes in claiming to live in Canada and The other claims to live in Georgia and it's amazing because I've heard both of them speak and It is psychology of multiple personality disorders fascinating because the one Sounds just like she's right out of the movie deliverance and the other one says So it's it's amazing how these these these personality disorders work.

Well this this person when I When I travel they they start talking about things that I need to have with me when I when I travel and Start talking about things that they're sticking into into my Into my luggage that of course TSA agents would find to be quite interesting if I were to actually have these things In my luggage.

So today two packages Came from this person to the offices here and I I just want to let you know what people send me. First of all, we have a Elmo Container was this but this be like a kid's cereal container you think and inside it is a Canada key.

So there's the the Elmo thing there. And then this one we will have fun with later wacky string blue 250 feet of wacky string is that Canadian silly string? Yeah, I bet you it is. That's down here. It's probably called silly string and then there's some sugar plum.

These are actually very nice smelling holiday candles here. Well, we'll actually get some get some use out of those and then there's a Toronto Maple Leafs washcloth which I'm not sure would actually make you clean or not, but and as a Van Camp's chicken-of-the-sea chunk like tuna and water that will definitely get used.

I I like tuna and then we both rich and I are happy about the serving tongs. That came because we need these we've we've needed these for a long time in our in our break room. And then there's a a mini whisk and Dust pan which actually I think again there might be some some use for that.

There's some hand sanitizer. Everybody needs hand sanitizer these days. There is a can of Evaporated milk. I'm not really sure that one's ever get used. Other than to throw it people or something like that.

I don't know but that that's that's probably not gonna happen. This actually is useful funnels you never have a funnel when you need a funnel there's all sorts of things we could use funnels for and so we've got a we've got a we've got some crayons and a candy necklace.

My my maybe my daughter would like that even though she's just about 21, but I don't know. This is just the first box. 12 regular lids for all regular Mason home canning jars. Do you have any need for anything?

Don't do that at home? Oh, okay. Then there's the Mason's the May. No, no, no, no, it's a different thing. It's different thing. Then we have some shoelaces. With fish on them. One pair of sonic laces not summer.

I bet would actually like those. I think those are definitely going to summer. Shower cap, which is something I really need shower caps are very very important. I carry shower caps everywhere I go. 24 birthday candles, it does not look like they're the kind that stay lit though.

Those are those are the fun ones. Those are those are fun. There is a Oh a ring pop, you know those big huge things you put on your ring. Yeah, about 10 years ago Matt used to get those all about 10 years ago.

Okay. Well, that's saying he's probably not gonna be interested in That one. No, okay. There is a dinosaurs coloring book here. I'm done with the first one here. Oh my goodness a life-size stuff-a-santa.

That's it's six feet tall, which is impressive. I gotta start putting stuff over on the floor over here an air freshener. Black ice. What is black? I black ice. Why would someone from Canada even want something?

It says black ice black ice is dangerous, isn't it? I'm gonna put that down there. It smells like tire tread. What is this? Says it's made in China. I Guess they're some type of a candle type thing. Oh, it's a salt and pepper shaker.

I'm sorry. They're salt and pepper shakers made in China, but they look like Pine cones or something. I don't know. Let's see here. Jokes and oh, it's a whoopee cushion. That's great. I've never had one of those before.

Oh Goodness. Oh some whiteout. Now. There's something that we really really do need a lot of around here is is whiteout. Because they actually still make that stuff with laser printers and everything it's whiteout correction fluid.

Yeah quick dry. So, you know, did you summer bought a typewriter recently on eBay? Just simply just simply to have a typewriter and then Wolverine 100 Wolverine stickers now that might go over big to That you know, that might be good.

That's the first one. Let's see a second segment here. This looks like is this a kazoo? This isn't a kazoo because this actually is this called a recorder? Yeah, isn't this it was buck 25 they didn't take the thing off here.

Oh, yeah, it's a recorder I'm sorry.

Flute well. Recorder makes like an accordion sound you sure? Yes, it has buttons on the side and you have batteries in it. No, yeah, that's not a that's not a recorder.

It a wait a minute it says right here recorder fingering chart, I was right I've got five party favor bouncing balls. There are two. Now I'm not sure this this could not have come from Canada because there are two feathers in here and I'm sure that's probably illegal.

To export a Canadian feather out of Canada is undoubtedly. I'm sure illegal. Now this I actually could get some use out of this is a a green and black striped Hoodie not not a hoodie. I mean, it's a cap, you know winter cap and then there are two look like they're yell their orange and black striped warm socks and They they look like they'd be very useful.

Well, you got the phones ringing. Yeah, I I'm almost done. Let's see. There's a there's a Disney phone charm. I don't know what this is, but it has it looks like came from a little kid or something. Natural modeling clay.

What would Natural modding it and it's heavy. That's that's natural modeling clay. There's some hot tamales. Do you like hot tamales? You don't like hot tamales. Well, they're they're hot tamales running out of places here oh.

This was oh this was rich and I agreed this was something you really need here in Phoenix lock deicer. Lock deicer. That's what that's. I've I've wanted to carry that in my car. It'll probably melt the heat.

There is a actually a very nice silver spoon. I mean, it's it's a regular. It's a hefty good silver spoon right there. That'll be really cool. And then there's a laser finger beams. Word-of-the-day calendar.

I'm hurrying up here. Oh Vinyl electric insulating tape we actually could use that around here. Oh a a bag a bag tag. It's a luggage bag tag that says no, it's not yours. Right on it big orange one. No, it's not yours.

I will use that I will put that on my bag for my trip this weekend to New York for those of you in the New York area here is a a orange Dinosaur plastic dinosaur thing my cats. I think might like that almost there.

Plant food spikes actually the cactus could might might like these don't you think let's think the cactus might like those. Okay plant food spikes. Anything else in here? Oh, yes, there's some Christmas decorations.

And the last thing is a mobile mobile phone portable phone, but it's a fake. But it does make sounds that's exactly what everybody needs is a Phone that makes sounds but actually no one's calling. That's that's great.

That's wonderful.

The preceding portion of the dividing line does not necessarily represent the views of the staff or management of Alpha Omega ministries.

See the thing is everyone listening right now knows I could not have made any of this up that that I actually did receive two boxes in the mail today and There is a complete catalog of everything that is in there.

So, there you go. That's yeah, I can't wait to see Dave Armstrong's post about this show. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Now normally what comes in the mail is ouch extremely useful, you know the ministry resource list.

Has been just a tremendous blessing and then we get stuff like this. And so I just you know, I just think though that that maybe this poor this poor person with the multiple personality disorder. Maybe this will help them to heal to hear this and to realize that they've they've reached out and touched someone outside of their small confined little world in that mental institution wherever they are that they have net access at.

So There you go. I'm absolutely serious. That is actually what came in the mail this morning. And I just thought I'd share that all with you and spent 12 minutes to do that. Sorry about that. Oh Well before we get I'm sorry, is there something I'm missing here?

Oh. The disclaimer. Yes. Well, that's probably a good thing to do. Well, I'll take this call because I don't have a clue what in the world it's about but I'll go ahead and take this call. Let's talk with Russ.

Hi Russ. How you doing.

Grams on mp3 a day or so after the program. I can't wait to hear this one. Yeah, neither can we. But I have a son-in-law who was teaching a Bible study in his church and the pastor by Dutch seats and Endorsed by Peter Wagner and all this good stuff.

And as he got into it, he finally said he couldn't teach that and Because the past hmm now, I understand Peter Wagner was a teacher at your for a number of times. You mean Fuller? What you mean Fuller?

Yes. Yes, and He's been a lot of weird people at Fuller. New Age.

Apostles and everything. Yeah, I don't know anything about Peter Wagner. I'll be pretty honest with you I did all my work in the Phoenix Extension, which thankfully meant that I had primarily conservative people that were drawn from the the institutions and schools and in the area, so I Don't know who Peter Wagner is.

Well, there you go anybody who would think Todd Bentley has anything to do with the movement of the Spirit of God is rather suspect at that point, but I Don't keep one thing in mind. Endorsements of books does not.

Sometimes it means someone read the book and sometimes it doesn't so I don't care who that is the good folks the bad folks. It doesn't matter. Don't really. Endorsements don't necessarily mean a whole lot.

You can tell by the endorsement itself whether it was really an in-depth reading or whether it's just a quick review. So you know, but the whole idea of New Age Apostles and anything having to do with Todd Bentley would be enough to Turn me off, but I don't know anything about this particular book.

So I'm I really can't make much of a comment on it because I've never looked at it.

So I have no idea what to say about it. Well, I've been listening to your debate on justification that you Had last week. I've had to go through it about four times and then I have to get your book on justification.

That would already have your book on Trinity on the Trinity and One of your other books, but I have to get that justification book to fully understand what is going on there. Well good good.

I hopefully it will be useful to you Russ. I appreciate your listening and I'm glad you can listen today because we're on at the Right time. Thank you much. All right. Thanks a lot. God bless. Bye. Bye.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number for the program today? I didn't really expect much in a way of calls today simply because it's that day and historically when the time changes we lose half of everybody and they're gonna be listening on the podcast because.

That's just the way it works. But that's why I queued up and want to try to make some progress today. We're a little bit over halfway through with the Norman Geisler sermon, which we began in June of this year.

And Every time I say as we laugh and then don't get back to it because phone calls or whatever else it might be but Just again a reminder. This weekend. I will be in New York. We have the debate Saturday night.

The information is on the beautiful green banner that Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics Put on our website and by the way, I was just sort of reminded recently that some of you since you use Mozilla Think that we have a big black box on our website with nothing in it that is not the case the big black box means you have ad block on and You can you can turn that off for particular websites like ours.

And if you do that, you see beautiful banner ads there. You know give you information about upcoming things and stuff that we think is important. So if you think there's a big black hole that we just didn't notice In the front of our website.

It's not a big black hole. That's that's an important spot and you should be seeing something there. So just a just a reminder That you might want to look at that then on Sunday. Again, I've posted everything on the website.

It'll be a Lindbergh Baptist. I'll be it's a grace reform Baptist. Speaking on Monday and Wednesday and on Tuesday evening, I'm going to be meeting with a Gentleman who is joining the Roman Catholic Church is in the RCIA classes.

He is Coming from a Southern Baptist Church into the Roman Catholic Church. He's doing a film on converts and conversion Roman Catholicism and I will have to ask him if it was his teachers who Suggested he have another voice from the other perspective or if he just felt that was something that needed to be done, I I'm not certain about that, but we're gonna be meeting Tuesday evening and one of the churches I'm speaking at has graciously allowed us to use their facilities and We're gonna be talking about Why I don't think conversion Roman Catholicism is a good thing at all.

In fact, the gentleman came into one of our two chat channels into the apologetics channel Night before last and we had a lengthy discussion and I, you know presented the gospel to him and His host mask told me who he was, but I just treated it as a regular witnessing encounter until he made a comment that indicated that he knew who I was and I knew he what he was etc, etc, but Still it's going to be interesting things and pray for that because you know, I don't know you can We could record an hour and a half's worth of stuff in 30 seconds ends up in the final product as far as I know And who knows which of the 30 seconds it is, but it's an opportunity to give a witness.

I think there's a good reason despite the the tremendous push for Removing the gospel from the list of Defining beliefs of the Christian faith. That's what's going on. That's the only way I can see it people who once recognized in spirituality of the gospel because of the degradation of the view of Scripture in so much of evangelicalism because of the atomization of truth so many Christians they do not see how Christian truth is of a one.

It's it's a one hole. It's a the same cloth you can't be cutting it into bunches of different pieces and ribbons and So because of that people cut the gospel out and say well, there's all you know Good men have disagreed and therefore we really shouldn't we need to be epistemologically humble blah blah blah blah blah blah and the gospel ends up being that which is sacrificed in the process and we don't go there and Because of that are out of the mainstream these days when it comes to all the evangelical Ecumenism that is taking place around us.

And so I want to be able to give a An answer for the hope that is within me in that the context so pray for that to encounter on on the Tuesday evening as well. That should mean Yes, I should mean that we should be able to do the dividing line on Tuesday Without too much of difficulty because I don't have anything during that day.

We'll just have to do it remotely and that's fine. And Lord willing. I will be as we did last time Live streaming the debate on Saturday Via this link that you are listening to live if you want to listen to the debate between myself and Syed Saeed on Jesus in the Quran and the Bible and I think that will be a very useful time.

So I'll pray for us Rich mentions that he's begun work on the Debate with Dan Barker the video finally arrived and so we are going to be putting the DVDs together and mp4 etc, etc, and that will be available in much higher quality than the YouTube version that was provided before and That'll be available and on the ministry resource list.

I put up a couple weeks ago. We would like to get a blu-ray burner right now. It's just one. It's not an overly expensive item, but we'd like to get a blu-ray burner because the new video software we have can do that and we want to see if there's any interest on the part of people and I guess from what You say this video would be high enough quality to really make it worthwhile to to have a blu-ray version of it.

So For those folks. Yeah, this one this was recorded in HD. Okay, so it does HD, right? So For those of you who have in the past visited the ministry resource list you might want to look at that and If I guess the idea is get this one see what kind of demand there is and if we need to get more than then we'll we'll get more but This would be the way to at least start off is to get the one and see how The production works and stuff like that.

So there's some of the stuff that is going on Right now so let's get to the subject of Norman Geisler preached sermon long long ago that we started reviewing almost as long as it Goes it was preached.

I Think this is 2001 down Florida as I recall. And we started viewing it in June and we've gone back and forth and back and forth and things like that. But why he's not a five-point Calvinist and you know People say well, you know you pick on George Bryson or this person you need to look at the good people.

Well, if Norman Geisler doesn't accurately represent What reform theology is who would is the question and yet we have found many many many many problems in dr Geisler's sermon already and we continue on with why Norman Geisler is not a five-point Calvinist.

The Meaning of John 3:16 and the Scope of God’s Love

Oh.

Somebody's theological beliefs can act as a pair of glasses and. They look through it and they look right at a text that's saying something else and they don't see it. When the extreme Calvinist looks at these verses I'm going to quote to you.

He takes the word all or the word world always to mean some. For example, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son actually.

If you take the time to read meaningful reformed exegesis. You will recognize that. Those exegetes recognize that the Gospel of John uses cosmos and about 14 different ways. And then you if you throw in the epistles of John that only expands the number for example.

We are told that if we love the world. Then the love of the Father is not in us and yet God loved the world. Now if you do not allow the word world to have multiple meanings then there is a blatant clear obvious contradiction right on the very surface of the text of the Bible and Yet if a Muslim or a Mormon or an atheist were to present that as an alleged contradiction to dr. Geisler, how would he respond if it was any other word?

And then he would allow the context of each to define its usage and demonstrate there is no context but the problem is dr. Geisler is using this exact word and If he's insisting that it always has the same meaning no matter what the context is.

Jesus says he doesn't pray for the world in John 17. So if this is the world as in every single human being ever created. Then Jesus isn't praying for every single human being ever created yet God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

So if you're actually read into the term cosmos some kind of universal human nature rather than What the word probably means and that is all that God created and that he is demonstrating his love in the sending of his son.

And not make an inappropriate application in John 3 because John 3 has specificity in it. It specifically says a certain group of people are going to receive eternal life. It doesn't say for God's love the world that gave his only begotten son that all the world might have eternal life.

It's not what it says. What does it say let's see I'm specifically having to back my volume off right now. I Don't I don't know if you noticed I think I damaged. I think I strained my vocal cords Weekend for last.

And I'm starting to preach and the volumes getting up and I'm starting to feel it. I need to be controlling myself because I Talked all day. We could go Sunday and then in the evening after I got done preaching we sang a hymn and I belted it out and I felt something and I literally think I Strained a vocal cord on the I think the right hand side not not both of them, but on the right hand side.

So I've got to Rein myself in here and try to be a little bit more calm and mate you might have to Ride the volume a little bit as I'm going to drop my volume Purposefully to protect things because I have a debate to do in just a few days, but as it may John chapter 3 verse 16 does not say For God's love the world that he gave his only begotten Son so that the world might have eternal life.

It's not what it says. And yet that's how it's interpreted. The specificity is right there on the text so that everyone believing and we've explained many many times we have new New listeners. Let me explain again That when people emphasize the word who so ever in John 3 16 They're emphasizing a word that actually isn't there in the Greek.

The original language literally says all the ones believing now. That's where whosoever but who believes comes from there is no delimitation. It's anyone in the group of believers. But people try to read into that text this idea that there is this who so ever.

There is no election. That's what's being understood. That's not there and so the text itself Militates against the the abuse the abusive misreading of it that many people put forward. But anyway, dr. Geisler Just doesn't seem to show a lot of familiarity with reformed exegesis.

See I think this comes in a fact that he just simply does not respect Reformed individuals on these matters. He came to the conclusion as a student long ago that reformed theology was wrong in these matters that autonomous human will is the The be-all and end-all of all things and if you don't buy into that then you're you're out to.

You're out to lunch and and so as a result, I just don't think he listens. He certainly hasn't listened to me because he doesn't believe in anyone who is younger than him. Can't actually teach him anything.

So we're gonna continue with that right after we take our break. Listening to Norman Geisler why he's on a five-point Calvinist here on the dividing line. We'll be right back.

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Exegesis, Eisegesis, and the Scope of Christ’s Atonement

And welcome back to dividing line if I sound like my voice is a little higher. It's because I'm standing up. I Did 23 miles is that how that works you stand up your voice gets higher? I did 23 miles more.

I did 32 last night so that's 54 by 54 and a half or so in the past 12 hours and Sitting here for this amount of time already. It's like I knew it was coming. So if I don't stretch now, you're gonna have.

All you're gonna hear is is Norman Geisler preaching for the rest. If he's screaming in the microphones gonna go so I'm standing up right now to try to stretch these things out. It's possible to do. I've done.

I've done dividing lines from standing before it's it's it's it's not impossible. So And Norm doesn't care whether I'm standing or not. He's not listening. So let's continue on with Norman Geisler on face value.

You would assume that that means God loves everybody, right? Not for the extreme Calvinist. That means God only loved the elect world. He only loved the saved world.

No, it's it's real easy if you ignore, you know what we say to make it sound silly. It's very easy to do that. That's one of the main differences between us is one side monologues and caricatures the other.

We play the entire sermons of the other side. We let them speak for themselves. We beg for dialogue. But they know they know in the heart of hearts the dialogue does not help their position at all and interpreting the Bible that's called.

Eisegesis. Reading into the text not reading out of the text. Now now again. Who actually.

Dealt with the text did I just not deal with the text point out, you know The uses of cosmos and John the the context of pass hop is to own everyone believing. Things like that who who actually engages in eisegesis, I mean I wrote a little book called the potter's freedom and When I was writing that book, I wrote to dr. Geisler because Prior to publication that book we had a nice relationship we had had dinner a number of times and we had spoken at conferences together and things like that and I Wrote to him because and one of the questions I asked I wanted to have some correspondence not to argue or debate.

To really ask serious questions that would impact how I approached particular issues in the potter's freedom. And I asked him I said you know one that one of the things that's troubling is Where where's the? exegesis of the key scriptural passages.

I mean you do deal with Romans 9 but in three or four different places never as a single group as a single group of verses you don't follow the argumentation through and Especially John chapter 6. I mean that this would to me is just one of the most important texts around.

Why isn't there an exegesis of John chapter 6, especially verse 37 in? in The book and he wrote back to why I exegeted it and so and I've told the story but again we have new listeners. The first edition of chosen but free came out did not have a Scripture index in it.

Well, okay it did but it was worthless. It was. It was not in any way shape or form complete. And so back then I would actually pay people with Amazon gift certificates to Leaf through the book and scan down every single page of the book to give me every reference in the book to a particular text and I'd already done done with John 6 myself and So I sent back to dr. Geisler a letter Where I cited every single reference to John 637 in the entire book chosen but free and I gave the entire context and I think once out of maybe four maybe five places I recall.

Even the whole verse was cited. There was never any exegesis offered. I Just said and I honestly left the possibility open. I said Was there a section of exegesis that was removed in editing. I mean that that type of thing has happened.

I left that as a possibility. All I got back was a postcard and the postcard said if you publish I'll respond norm. That was it so. You know, I tried but I was met with That kind of response. I did my best.

So when we talk about isogenesis. What dr. Geisler did with Romans 9 with John 6. With so many of these texts that's isogenesis. Actually looking at John chapter 3. Did you know so he said well Common sense would say that means God loves everyone.

What has he done there? He has assumed a particular meaning for cosmos that he does not substantiate. He assumes it that is contradictory to the delimiter that is offered by the text itself because if you're gonna read it that way that cosmos there simply means Individual human beings all who have ever lived then how can God's love for every human being who's ever lived be Demonstrated by only giving eternal life to some of them.

Well, exactly. Rich just said well, it's all their fault. But that's not what the text is talking about. Now, is it so there's you know, it's it's. The accusation of isogenesis is an important one and I made it a number of times against dr. Geisler and I fairly Documented every assertion that I made and that's why the Attempted response which I continue to leave this day was not written by dr. Geisler the attempted response in the appendices the appendix to chosen by free that was added later is Just such an egregious example of how this important subject should never be approached.

It should never be treated in that way never. And I hope I would never ever.

Treat anything that way. Jesus. Exegesis is what does the text mean in its context? That's getting the meaning out of the Bible. Isogenesis is reading your theology into the Bible not being able to see what it says.

Take a look at these verses and you tell me What they mean? If in John 316 God so loved the world in Romans chapter 5.

Now do I need to point something out? He didn't even quote the verse. He quoted one phrase out of verse as an example of how we're isogeting it. For gods of the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him Should not perish but have eternal life.