Why Is Christian Entertainment So Cringe? Pt. 2

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Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their

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Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished

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Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies. Viewer discretion is advised. People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

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The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject

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Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

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The issue is that humanity is in sin, and the wrath of almighty

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God is hanging over our heads. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed, and they will perish.

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God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended, and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the

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Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us. Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll continue to answer the age -old question, why is

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Christian entertainment so cringe? So we did a recent interview with Marcus Pittman, the founder and CEO of Lore TV, and we reached out to him because he's the kind of guy who has had his foot in the entertainment realm for a while now, for years now, working with different groups like Apologia, he's worked with,

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I know he said Pure Flix, he's interacted with guys like the people at Netflix, and so he kind of understands that realm in terms of how people operate, and he's even started his own company, like I said,

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Lore TV. So this is something that is very familiar to him when it comes to entertainment. He's spent a lot of time as a

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Christian trying to think through how should Christians interact with entertainment, what should

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Christian entertainment look like, and so we got to ask him a lot about those things. We wanted to sort of continue that conversation with Tim and I where we basically say, all right, so let's flesh out some of these ideas a little more, let's reflect on some of the things that Marcus said during our interview, and really just try and figure out how should we interact with entertainment as Christians.

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Should we just throw it all out because it's worldly? Should we try and claim that everything is

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Christian? What should we do with all of this? So I guess, Tim, why don't we just start with you just giving some of your general sort of thoughts on the things that Marcus had to say in our interview.

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Sure. I thought it was interesting just to interact with someone who has a vested interest in producing movies, and I'm sure that it's a pretty difficult thing to be a part of a

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Christian quote -unquote entertainment company that is having to answer some of those questions in a fairly serious way.

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Now, I know this is a conversation that essentially was somewhat of a hot topic,

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I guess, a few years ago as it relates to the Church. There's a lot of individuals who are commenting on it and writing articles on it, and I haven't seen the avalanche of articles lately as it relates to this kind of topic, but it is a topic that's out there.

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My perspective in general is that there's a broad range of what you might describe as Kuyperian Christians who are essentially trying to take every square inch captive for the

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Lord and all that. And so, I think there are groups that do it better and there are groups that do it worse. I would say that in my mind, the

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Gospel Coalition is a poor example of that, how to engage in that area, and it seems like what they're promoting is indistinguishable from crass worldliness.

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And then you have guys at CrossPolitik who are, I would think, a little bit better examples of individuals who are actively trying to engage the culture in a way that appears to be a little more helpful.

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I wouldn't say that everything that they do is something I would recommend, but I would say that I appreciate the way they do it a lot better than TGC, for instance.

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I always thought that Apologia Church was somewhere in between, but it's been a while since I've interacted with those kind of articles and that kind of discussion online.

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But by and large, I thought it was helpful to hear his perspective about, and some of the insight he had about how some of these decisions are actually made.

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But then there are times where it's just like it, I would think that there needs to be a little more clarity about the path forward as far as that goes.

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I think I understand the kind of individuals that he's reacting against, but then some of the responses do feel a bit reactive and not precisely clear what the path forward is.

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In particular, it feels like to me, just as an example,

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Lecrae is a bad example of how to think through these issues, and his path seems to be the logical outcome of his thought process on that.

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And then it seems, though, that as we're interacting with Marcus, for example, he viewed that as his rationale for going secular and all that as a good example.

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But then, unfortunately, he chucked his Christianity along the way, and I would say that, well,

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I think it's tied a little bit more to how he thought about it than that.

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But that would be just one example of something where I think maybe,

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I would say I'm glad that you have individuals who are attempting to make Christian movies, and it seems like we've largely surrendered that territory to the pagans, but then

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I think I'd probably like a little more definition as to what constitutes a Christian movie, too. Right, right.

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But there's plenty of things to say about that. Yeah, it seems like TGC has relegated movie -making to Disney exclusively at this point.

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Right, right. Hearing some of his insight into the way that companies like Netflix work, he brought up the whole nudity in the first five minutes.

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Sure. That's like an unspoken requirement that Netflix has, and their rule is basically if you have it in the first five minutes, then you're going to keep them for the whole first season, basically.

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And so that was really interesting. I mean, those are the kinds of things that you hear, and they don't necessarily surprise you, per se, but then they do sort of maybe help you understand the reality of the situation we're in when it comes to pagan entertainment and worldly entertainment by and large.

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Yeah, I want to make a brief comment about that, too, before we get to your question, just so I don't forget.

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That's something that does concern me about the standard Christian response to media and entertainment is that we go into media and entertainment in somewhat of a naive way.

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So, for example, with that kind of problem, the idea of someone watching

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Netflix, and this is just something that I don't understand why Christians do in general, and I would say that we need to be more thoughtful about how we engage these kinds of things, but we know that these companies do that.

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But my wife and I, we won't watch anything without checking it on Kids &

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Mind to see what the content is, or IMDb, the parental guide, and unless we're pretty confident that there's not going to be surprises like that, we don't watch it, okay?

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Right. I mean, sometimes in these kinds of discussions, there's this unspoken expectation that it's kind of normal to be surprised by nudity in the first five minutes, and it's not, if you just take even just a little bit of caution.

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And one of the things I've seen over and over again with Christians and counseling and everything else is just like they pretend to be surprised, but it's like how many times do you have to be surprised before it's not a surprise?

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Right. Right? So at some point, it's like I would say we need to, like Job makes a covenant with his eyes that he doesn't put anything unclean before, or how can he gaze on a virgin and everything else.

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So I do think if we know that that's what's happening, and you have like TVMA warning at the very beginning of it, that should, and you know the trajectory of where things are going, you shouldn't be surprised very much anymore.

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And that's just kind of a random comment to say we do have to be careful with how we're interacting with television.

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And I would say that maybe it's possible to get surprised once, but after that point, you're just gullible.

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Right. Yeah. I have seen a lot of Christians who they'll watch like Game of Thrones, or I think maybe

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Breaking Bad had nudity in it. I'm not really sure. I haven't watched it, but as far as I'm, I haven't watched any of it, but as far as what

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I've heard about it, like that's what I remember hearing about it. Westworld is the same way.

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That new show, Euphoria, I'm pretty sure it has the same deal. And it's like at some point there has to be a, you know, like you're saying, all right, it's fair enough.

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Maybe you weren't being as cautious as maybe you should have been or something, and you were caught off guard by it, and you shut it off after you realized that's what it was.

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But then, you know, if you keep watching the show after you know something like that has happened, or you shut it off, but then you watch the very next show and have the same deal time and time again, eventually there's got to be something.

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There has to be something wrong there for the Christian, right? Well, I think it just goes to show how normalized nudity is in the minds of many people.

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In general, just like that, as he noted, surprise, you know, it's just like, the fact that so many

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Christians are being surprised is deeply concerning, because it should be like, that should be so unthinkable to the point where,

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I mean it's like if you treated it like another, like imagine if you walked into a room and there was a, you know, or you go to a lake or something like that, and surprise, alligator bites your arm off, you know?

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Uh -huh. Yeah. Okay. Like you might, and then you just walk back out there the next day,

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I mean like that would be unthinkable, you know, that would be kind of like emotionally scarring, and you know, like everything else.

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Meaning, I'm just trying to say that there should be a kind of a, I don't want to tread this path again, and I need to, and I'm not trying to say that it's just like, you know, you see something you shouldn't see, and you should just be like totally psychologically destabilized for the next month, but it should be a, whoa, that was like significantly abnormal and out of place, and we're not going to go back there.

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Yeah, I need to alter my behavior based off of what has happened. Yeah, significantly, you know, to where like there's like a zero tolerance kind of, like that's just, but then like the fact that like that's just, we just think, oh, well, you know, oopsie, you know, is kind of weird.

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Right. And I know we're kind of getting off subject here, but I think the concerning thing going along with the whole, like we're not really taking it very seriously is in reality, so I know it's sort of blasphemous to say this, but in reality, these shows, they're just, it's pornography.

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That's what it is. Like showing nudity, all like sexual situations, oftentimes just literally like sex on screen.

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I mean, that's just pornography, but then it's labeled TV, and it's fine because it's on, you know,

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HBO or whatever, where you have plenty of other perfectly fine shows, and we're not really taking that really as seriously as I think we probably should, as Christians at least.

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I think everyone should be, but if no one else is, Christians should at least be calling it what it is.

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Yeah, it wasn't, I mean, that was something that, you know, it wasn't clear necessarily in the interview.

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I mean, I think in the interview itself there was a, it was very clear like from the company's perspective that, you know, that that was one of their standards.

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There wouldn't be any nudity in the shows. But then, you know, at one point, you know, he did mention that, you know,

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Game of Thrones was a, or that, oh, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, what's the difference?

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But a Christian show, and then, you know, I don't know.

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I wonder, like, did you watch it on VidAngel or whatever else? And maybe that's something

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I should have asked, but I didn't, you know, I wasn't aware of what's in it at the moment. But, you know, so I don't know, like, as far as that goes.

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That's just a comment. Like, I do think, one of the things I find with individuals engaged in that kind of discussion who seem to love, like, movies and entertainment a lot more than I do is that there seems to be kind of a very high tolerance for filth of all sorts, you know.

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And that's something that, you know, there has to be some kind of middle ground,

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I think, between, you know, breaking the fourth wall and having an evangelistic encounter in every one of your movies in order for it to be okay, you know, kind of discussion.

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And just, like, hey, maybe we should avoid, clearly avoid entertainment with nudity and filth in it.

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Right, right. So, anyways. So, talking about his interactions beyond just Netflix.

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So, he said he worked for Pureflix for a while, and he talked a lot about the way that they make their movies.

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And he said that it was pretty much solely focused on data and the data that they collect.

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And that would determine what their movies ended up being. So, for you, was that surprising at all?

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Or were you just kind of like, yeah, that makes sense, pretty much? Yeah, I don't know that it was surprising.

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I would say it's clarifying. It's more just like makes it, it makes sense of what you're seeing.

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So, it wasn't like, oh, that's shocking. I mean, that's essentially what, you know, big evangelical world is doing with their church services too, right?

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It's all data -driven. It's all giving people what they want, giving them the messages they want. It's all tailored to the people.

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So, I mean, I thought it was funny the fact that, and we brought that up in the interview. It's very funny the fact that you can, like, the

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Christians are doing that kind of thing. You pull in the audience and then non -believers are, you know, they're willing to sink their own boats, you know, giving you stuff that you absolutely hate.

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And they're more committed to their principles than we are, as far as that goes. So, they're absolutely committed to what they perceive to be the truth that needs to get out there.

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Whereas we're, you know, much more, like, man -centered than even the pagans are. And that's just deeply embarrassing and shameful.

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Yeah. Yeah, I guess that makes sense why there's all of the, like, horse Pure Flakes movies.

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If they're mainly selling to women. Well, one of the things that was interesting about that, and I kind of joked around with him about it a little bit, but I didn't get the impression towards the end of the, you know, as the interview was going on, that there wasn't really any substantial response to that.

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And I don't know that it's, like, a significant response. I just thought it was funny. But, you know, so I mentioned that, so I guess the only good stories are the ones that are for guys, right?

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And that seemed to be kind of how he defined, like, a good movie or a good show as one that would appeal to men, you know.

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And it's like, well, I mean, yeah, there's two genders, though. So, I mean, I get there's an imbalance and, you know, that one is utterly lacking, but I wouldn't want to necessarily…

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Forsake the other. Well, I mean, I think they're different, you know. I'm more than happy to say, like,

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I think, like, your standard Hallmark movie doesn't have a plot, but then it is the kind of plot that a lot of women do deeply appreciate.

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They do, man. I don't know why. There's no plot, you know. It's just, like, the relationship, like, the development of a relationship.

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And that's just the kind of thing that, you know, like, a lot of women typically like. Now, I mean,

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I don't know that… I mean, you know, maybe the answer is that that's just a rebuke to the superficiality of, like,

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American women. And maybe that's the case. It's something I need to think about a little bit more. But I would say that, yes, like, your standard guy show is going to have substantially more, like, plot, like, development.

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And it's going to have substantially more, like… I mean, it is going to be centered around some kind of, like, objective, like subduing the earth and, you know, going on a quest and that kind of thing.

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Or overcoming adversity, you know. And, like, there is a story, you know.

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The story is not just the development of a relationship. It's a story about life in a different way.

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But that was something that was interesting that came out that I don't know that I have fully formed thoughts on.

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But it was funny. I think it makes a lot of sense from the theological perspective in terms of, you know, the quote -unquote

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Christian message that is being presented in all of these movies.

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It typically seems like it's basically just, like, a prosperity gospel charismatic type thing more often than not.

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I'm sure, you know, it's… Well, he didn't say that. That was something that was a little bit… I couldn't get a feel for him on that one.

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Yeah, I was a little surprised by that as well. I couldn't… I didn't know if maybe that was just him being a…

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You know, if I'm speculating, you know. Like, I didn't know if that was just him, like, making movies with some of the people involved in those films and not wanting to, you know.

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Maybe we, like… Not wanting to step on toes or something.

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Yeah, I mean, maybe so, you know. But my perspective of all the Kendrick's Brother ones has been that they're just, like, prosperity stuff, man, you know.

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And they have, like, you know, some gospel moments in there, but, like, there's… It's just, like, there's a very strong charismatic, you know, health and wealth, you know.

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You know, faced in a giant's kind of, you know, no weapon formed against you will prosper.

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You know, your standard megachurch, you know, myths of evangelical Christianity and, you know, prosperity charismatic stuff.

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You know, so… But, you know, I was surprised that he didn't have a stronger critique against that.

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But it may be that, you know, his critiques were just…

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He hadn't thought about that very much. His critiques were coming in other directions. Right.

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But I think it makes a lot of sense based off of the other things he was… You know, that whole, like, it's all about the data.

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It's all about what's going to sell the most. You know, because if you think about it, I mean, more often than not, that kind of message is going to bring in a lot of people, right?

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Right. Because it's all about, like… I mean, it's obviously a spectrum, you know, in terms of what all people teach.

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There's a lot of things that could fall under prosperity or, like, you know, charismatic

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Christianity. But a lot of it really appeals to even people who aren't actually

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Christian, you know? So, like, the idea that, you know, God wants you to be healthy, you know, wealthy and have great relationships with everyone around you, that's…

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And win the football game, right? Yeah, win the football game, you know? Face all your giants.

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Stand up out of the wheelchair, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's a message that everyone wants, right?

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Like, everyone wants that, whether they like God or not. Well, yeah.

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And I think that's something that, you know, the different movies, it's like… I can't…

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Maybe it was War Room or whatever, where the guy is, you know, he gets in some kind of sin problem.

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And then at the end, it's just like he repents and everything goes well, you know, for him, and everything's fixed.

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Right. And it's just like, that's not always true to life, you know? Right. Like, it's not…

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I mean, that's where it has, like, the prosperity kind of health and wealth kind of leanings to where it's just like, hey, you know, there are times where, like, that can happen and God is gracious and merciful, but that isn't a guarantee, like, that'll happen.

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And so… Yeah, I mean, there's, like, a lot of times… You know, when you repent of sin, a lot of times you experience blessing in terms of, like, things start going right in the sense of,

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I'm not doing that bad thing anymore, and so I don't have to deal with, like, any more new consequences that come from doing that thing anymore.

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But, you know, if you're the guy that murdered five people… Right, there's…

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You can repent and, like, I hope you do, but then it's not like, you know, no one needs to make the movie where the murderer repents and then he goes to the courtroom the next day and the judge is like, you're free to go.

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Right, right. You know, like, no, you still need to go to jail. Right, right.

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So there's a difference there, but then, you know, like I'm saying, I think that makes a lot of sense just because, like, that's what people want to hear.

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I mean, that's what people have itching ears for, and so that's obviously going to sell way more than the…

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To most people, it's going to sell way more than the story about someone who repents and then their life is still just as hard afterwards, you know?

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Like, there's not a feel -good, happy ending kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you can have that story and they have peace, you know, as they go to jail and get in the electric chair, you know?

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You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. I think you could portray that in a way that… I mean, I'm not saying that everyone in this life…

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You know, God is obviously merciful and he doesn't give us what we deserve and we don't always experience, you know, all the consequences we deserve for all of our actions.

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Praise the Lord for that. Right. You know, if your movies are just like, you know, if you just repent, you know, everything in this life will be fixed perfectly.

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It's just like, wow. I don't know, man, you know? David went through a lot of junk, you know?

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Yeah, yeah. Even though he repented, and so there's that. Yeah, I mean, it is very data -driven.

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It is, like, I do think, you know, like, the individuals with the money are the same individuals, you know?

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And that's, it's not surprising, but it's like the individuals with the money are the, like, the church, you know?

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The ones with the money, they're making this stuff. Right. And they're doing the same thing at church that they're doing in their movies.

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But I would have a stronger theological critique of what's going on, for sure, you know?

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And I think what's happening is influenced by their theology. It's not just, like, neutral movie -making methodology.

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It's influenced by their theology in a very primary way.

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Yeah. So to where their bad theology is showing up in what they're doing, and I think that's kind of a different way

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I would tackle the problem, for sure. Right, yeah. That definitely makes it feel a lot more cringy for me watching that.

26:59

So the other thing that Marcus had mentioned in our interview was this idea that, you know, basically all good stories are

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Christian stories. And what he meant by that was basically good stories come from God, and the reason they're good stories is because they're true in some way.

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Not necessarily in the places being, you know, presented or the characters themselves being presented.

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They don't have to be real people, but then at least the themes behind the movie have to be true in some sense.

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And if they are true in any sense, then that can be categorized as a

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Christian movie, TV show, book, whatever.

27:57

So what were your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard to, you know, if a person's not prepared maybe to give certain answers, then it might be that you can't fuss at them for not providing the clarity that they would like to provide.

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So, you know, making allowances along those lines. Right. Meaning, you know, no one speaks perfectly in the moment.

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I didn't come away from that part of it entirely clear, and I was trying to ask questions along those lines to gain clarity, and it seemed to be elusive as it relates to that.

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So I think there's, my perspective is that there's a much better way to communicate that.

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But then I would say that I don't know that I've sorted out all the math in its final form as it relates to Christian media either.

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But, I mean, I have impressions, I have leanings, I have things that seem to make sense based on my reading of the

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Bible and places that, you know, I have critiques. So I would say, I think it is hard to kind of synthesize everything that there is in that kind of discussion and put together something that is complete.

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And like in terms of just the final product of, you know, what makes for, you know, if you're trying to ask the question, you know, what kind of movie is a

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Christian allowed to make? Like, there's the caricatures, you know, and a lot of, I think, his interaction was to pick at some of the caricatures.

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Meaning, like, so I would say that the Kendrick's Brother kind of thing where, like, you have to have an explicit gospel, you know, moment where the audience is being proselytized for it to be

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Christian. And I would say, I don't know that anyone's communicating that, like, that, well, not a lot of thoughtful people are saying that that's a requirement.

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But I do think that there is, like, they're obviously doing that and they feel like that they need to make it evangelistic in order for it to be

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Christian, I would assume, you know. Or at least it's an added bonus, so I wouldn't want to put, like, thoughts in their mouth.

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But I would say that that would be not right. So, there's a difference between Lord of the

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Rings and, you know, Face of the Giants, for sure. And Lord of the Rings doesn't have an altar call moment in it.

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And yet, you know, it is still a story that I would want to say is a Christian story over and against – so, they would both be, you know,

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Christian stories, leaving aside some of the theologically problematic elements of it. You know, that are there, that I would say they're both

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Christian stories, but then they're different ways to do Christian stories. And there's a lot of Christian stories, you know, that we have access to.

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You know, my perspective of it, long story short, my perspective of it is

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I feel like we need greater clarity about what makes a

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Christian story a Christian story. And it seems to me that the response given is, like, if you can consider

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Breaking Bad a Christian story, then I just – I think that word has lost its meaning at that point.

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And so, if everything is a Christian story, nothing is a Christian story. And, like, I don't think that that's a helpful way to answer the question of what makes a

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Christian story a Christian story than if Breaking Bad can be – or considered a Christian TV show or whatever.

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Like, it's just – like, we need more breaks on it than that.

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And – Right. So, that seems to me to be not right.

31:54

Yeah. Yeah, it seems like there's a pretty profound difference between a story like Breaking Bad and The Lord of the

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Rings. Right. Now, I mean, what I came away with, and I don't want to misrepresent, but, I mean, what I came away with is it's like if you're living in God's – and a part of this is, like, related to the post -mill theology and, like, just, you know, perspectives along those lines.

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But, you know, what I came away with understanding

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Him to be arguing was essentially that – because, you know, essentially the world – like,

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God upholds the world by the, you know, word of His power, and this is God's universe that we're living in.

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And then, essentially, any story that is, you know, set in this kind of reality would essentially be

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God's story. Or it would be a Christian story, you know, if it's corresponding with the kind of universe that God made.

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Right. Or even, you know, it's an exercise of creativity within that kind of universe that is not fundamentally necessarily teaching people to – like, if it's not – the only caveat

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I think I could get from Him is that as long as the story is not teaching individuals to reject

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God. Right. Actively, then it can be, in some sense, considered a

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Christian story because, in some sense, it's authentic or true to life or something like that, right? Yeah, even with the, like, the – there was –

33:40

I can't remember what TV show or movie it was, but there was something He brought up that was basically, like, you know, the main character basically just fails, you know, the whole time.

33:52

Like, morally. Well, that would be Breaking Bad. Fails the whole time. That would be the Breaking Bad kind of example of, you know, a guy getting into some money trouble or whatever the plot is and, you know, spending his whole time, you know, basically being addicted to drugs.

34:06

Trying to dig himself out. Yeah, being addicted to drugs and, you know, selling drugs to kids and just, you know, but I don't understand how that's in any sense a

34:15

Christian story. Now, I mean, like, if – I mean, I don't know that the moral of the story was go and do likewise, but I don't know that there was any, like, anything necessarily saying, like – like,

34:29

I don't know, you know, I don't know that, like, that's sufficient to make something a Christian story. Right, right.

34:35

Like, I think we need more than just kind of, like, authenticity, you know, like, it's authentic, it's true to life.

34:41

It's like, if you're in trouble – like, you know, having a story about, hey, this is what happens if you get hard up on money and, like, try to dig yourself out the wrong way.

34:50

It's just like, okay, but, like, what – what about that made it

34:56

Christian at all, you know? Right. So, like, at some point, you know, that – just because it, like, it's true, you know, or it's true to life or it's authentic, it feels like we need more breaks in that or we need more checks in that.

35:10

Yeah. Without having to have a, you know, an altar call or something along those lines. I mean,

35:15

I do think Doug Wilson wrote an article about this at some point to where, like, there does – like,

35:23

I do think his take on it is a little different than Marcus's in that, like, there – and I was trying to find the article, but I can't seem to find it.

35:31

But, like, he seemed to indicate that there – I do think that, like, if there's anything good and if there's anything beautiful and there's anything true, you know, you think on these things.

35:41

And, like, for the Christian, like, just taking a bath in depravity is not redemptive.

35:47

Right. And it's not, like – so, I don't think you – like, just taking a bath in depravity, like, that doesn't, like – like, is that – it may be true, right, that certain people do these kind of things, right?

36:02

Mm -hmm. But is it beautiful? No. You know, is it good? Is it of good repute to think on these things?

36:09

I do think the standard for a Christian should be that we shouldn't be just filling our mind with debauchery just to experience what it's like to, you know, just so that we can better relate to a fallen world or something like that.

36:26

Like, there are some things that are even shameful to be spoken of, you know? So, I don't know, like, if you're talking about sanctification, like, are you – like,

36:34

I do think you have to run certain checks with your entertainment and ask, am

36:39

I – is this sanctifying me? You know? And I think maybe that's part of what was missing in the kind of calculus in general is that, like,

36:49

I do think with entertainment in general, there's, like, a hidden assumption that, you know, all entertainment is fundamentally neutral.

36:57

Right, yeah. To where, like, I don't know that I share that assumption.

37:03

Like, meaning, you know, we should be wise as serpents, gentle as doves, and we need to redeem the time for the days that are evil.

37:10

And, like, we do need to think on what is good and beautiful and, you know, praiseworthy and excellent.

37:16

And, you know, and then you do have to ask your question, all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful.

37:22

All things are lawful, but not all things build up. And so, like, there's tests that you have to ask as it relates to your entertainment consumption in general.

37:32

And one of those tests is just, like, is this going to help me in the race? Like, is this going to help me be more like Christ? Is this going to help me to – like, is it helpful, you know?

37:42

Like, even – and, like, that doesn't mean that, like, you can't be edified through watching a tragedy or something like that.

37:51

But, you know, like, I do think we need a little bit more – a little more categories than just, you know, is it authentic, so to speak.

38:02

Right. Yeah, and while you're saying that, it made me think of – it seems like there's even a difference between more modern

38:11

TV shows and movies that are coming out these days compared to something like sitcoms from the 80s or the 90s where, you know, typically, like, a lot of times they're not, like, you know, they're not, like, outright

38:32

Christian things being – shows being made. But then they are trying to push some sort of, like, family value or moral story along the way that's meant to inform the audience about how we should act.

38:52

And the interesting thing about that is I think typically most people nowadays, at least, probably view those shows as, like, corny, you know?

39:05

But then, honestly, I think that might actually say a lot about our morality in general.

39:13

It does. Like, as a society. Yeah, I think we're definitely living in a time right now that, like, in order for something to be, like, considered good, like, it has to be transgressive in some way.

39:28

And, like, so, and, like, that's kind of the issue, like, with a lot of the entertainment that we're actually producing at this point is it just, like, it has to be, like, you would think, like, most people are trained to think in order for something to be good it has to, like, basically put total depravity on full display and you just have to wallow in the filth and the mud, you know, because, like, what matters is what it makes you feel, right?

39:56

Right, right. What matters is what it makes you feel. And so, if it can produce any kind of feelings that it can produce in you, like, that's what makes it good.

40:05

It's just, like, you know, I did,

40:11

Doug did have an article on this and, like, he was basically talking about, you know, like, it has to be possible to write a story about, you know, a dad who has a cute daughter who, you know, buys her a, you know, huge teddy bear or whatever and has a conversation with her and without it just being corny, right?

40:35

Like, meaning, like, that would be true to life and it's good, you know, but then there isn't, like, a market for good, right?

40:43

In the same way that there's a market for bad. Like, and it seems like we gravitate towards, like, the more depraved this can be the more we think, oh, that was great, you know?

40:55

Right. In general. We like stories these days that are all about, like, making the villain the hero of the story.

41:03

Yeah, the morally ambiguous villain, you know, to where he's a little bit more complicated than that. The problem, you know, it's funny with that is that, like, no one ever does that with, you know, any of the villains in our society, but we do that on the screen, you know?

41:18

But, you know, we're the frenemies, right? Like, the good guy, the bad guy, you know?

41:24

So, I do think, yeah, I mean, there needs to be, you know,

41:31

I do think there is, like, the movies that are good, I think you should define them by their correspondence with, like, a biblical worldview and how closely they match.

41:41

I do think God has given us kind of a, I mean, typically the way it works is, like, the movies that we actually do, like, gravitate,

41:50

I mean, that we should gravitate towards the most are the ones that are going to remind us of the things that are most important to us.

41:57

And so, part of the whole discussion with, like, you know, entertainment in general is that, you know,

42:04

I do think that you have a lot of people, I do think we need people who are going to make good Christian entertainment, and I would,

42:13

I do think, I do agree that that would probably look different than, you know, the pure flicks and all that.

42:19

I do see the distortions, I do see the caricatures, but then at the same time, I don't know that, like, good entertainment needs to be defined by what the world currently praises as good.

42:32

And if we are redeemed people who, like, have different priorities and different values, and, like, you know, so for me, like, my heart is tied to the

42:46

Bible, and if something reminds me of the Bible, that's when typically I'm thinking it's better. I mean, you can, you know, show me a movie where, you know, buildings are exploding nonstop and it's full of action and whatever, and it's just like, okay, whatever, what do we do here other than just watch a bunch of, you know, action, you know?

43:08

Right, right. And so, but that didn't do anything to my mind, you know, and so I do think a Christian's mind should be more tethered to the

43:14

Bible and should be more resonating with that kind of thing, and, you know, I do think it should be kind of repelled by, you know, wallowing in depravity for long periods of time with no, you know, silver lining whatsoever, period.

43:33

You know, it's just depravity, depravity, depravity, and the end, you know, it's just like, well, how many times do you want to do that, you know?

43:40

Right, yeah. But anyways. Yeah, okay, well, I guess that's it in terms of questions that I have for you, but is there anything else that you wanted to say that maybe we didn't really get to touch on?

43:55

Yeah, no, I appreciate the interview. I think we needed, I think, you know, there's a couple comments

44:03

I'd make, and maybe we could leave it at that, but I do think a more careful, like, definition of what makes for Christian entertainment would be helpful in that discussion.

44:13

So if everything is Christian, then nothing is Christian at that point, and so, like, it definitely, like, we need better distinctions between what makes for a

44:25

Christian movie and what makes for a secular movie, and it seems to me that that's the need of the moment as far as that part of that conversation is concerned.

44:39

You know, I would say, too, I think that I'm always a little bit concerned with, so I'm not, like, you know, poo -pooing the project or something like that, but I do wonder at times, like, there's, like,

44:53

Christians have, like, disengaged from that space, and I think that's not good, but then, you know, it does seem like, you know, most

45:01

Christians are entertainment addicts, and, like, I would think what needs to happen is that for a vast majority of Christians, we need to watch less entertainment, too, so.

45:15

Right. You know, so that's not, like, saying it's not a valid project, that's just saying that, like, I think we watch way too much entertainment, and, like, we need to be filling our minds with more substantial and more important things, and in some sense, it's just like,

45:31

I don't know that, like, the advertising that goes along with those engaging arts and culture is necessarily as thoughtful as it should be.

45:44

Meaning, like, it's like, you know, we failed to reach the people because we haven't given them the right entertainment, it's like,

45:50

I think that's saying a little bit too much, like, I do think, like, the godlier you are, probably the more you're going to wean yourself from frivolous pursuits anyways, right?

46:01

Yeah, yeah. Like, meaning, that's not saying there's no place for it, it's just saying it shouldn't be, like, what we don't need is we don't need a

46:10

Christian alternative to Netflix, like, think about what I'm saying here, like, we don't need that in order for the church to be holy.

46:19

Uh -huh, yeah. Like, in fact, you could do that, and let's say that you take the nudity out of it, let's say that you make real stories in it, you're still going to, like, if they just substitute

46:32

Netflix for, you know, lore, right, and let's say lore actually works out well, they're still going to be fundamentally worldly.

46:42

Uh -huh. You get what I mean? Like, meaning, like, if you're spending eight hours a day, if a standard

46:47

American is spending eight hours a day being entertained, and you switch it from worldly entertainment to, well,

46:55

I don't know, what? Entertainment without nudity, like, the only breaks that I heard were entertainment without nudity and entertainment that, you know, maybe is not going to tell a transgender story, right, or something like that.

47:12

So, but then, you're still spending eight hours a day entertained, and, like, that means, that's a big problem, you know?

47:20

Like, you're, you know, so, like, that doesn't mean don't do it. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just trying to say that there has to be some kind of, hey, let's all insert reality that there's a lot more important things to do than just sit around being entertained by, you know, even stuff with a better worldview than the other stuff, right?

47:36

Yeah, yeah. Like, at the end of the day, entertainment is still entertainment, and it might be a little bit better, but then…

47:44

It should only occupy a small space in your life anyways. Yeah, when you're spending, you know, five to eight hours a day on entertainment, then it doesn't really matter what the entertainment is, it's not going to be very helpful for you, like, in your walk.

48:00

Yeah, I mean, like, that should be a very small… So, I think sometimes, like, these discussions, like, the value of entertainment is being massively overhyped, you know?

48:11

Marcus didn't go there in general, that's just a comment about entertainment in general, like, you don't want to massively overhype the value of, you know, entertainment, period.

48:23

Like, what you have is you have a society where people are massively addicted to entertainment, and they need to wean themselves from it, so, there's that.

48:29

But, yeah, no, I think short of it, just a more helpful definition of what, or distinction between Christian entertainment and pagan entertainment would be helpful.

48:42

And, you know, I think there's plenty of other things we could say there, but that would be the main thing.

48:50

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, from my perspective, I do think this is a pretty important topic that Christians really do need to think through in general, specifically because of what you're saying.

49:04

I mean, entertainment just dominates our culture in so many ways. I mean, like, everywhere you go, you're going to be exposed to different ads for things, you're going to be exposed to different stories that are being, you know, presented for you to watch, and you're constantly being told, like, you deserve this, you deserve that, all of these things.

49:27

And entertainment is, like, a nice way to just, like, basically just be a very passive person in general, right?

49:34

I mean, where you can just turn your brain off and not really have to think about things, and that's what our culture is addicted to.

49:41

So, you basically, as a Christian living in America in modern day, you can't escape the reality that entertainment is just all around you.

49:52

So, we've got to have some sort of understanding in terms of, like, what do we do with that?

49:58

How do we interact with entertainment as Christians? How do we prioritize what we watch, and how do we think through these things?

50:07

How do we view the people that are making all of these things and then trying to sell them to us?

50:13

What do we do with all of this, and how do we honor God with all of this? And I think at the end of the day, probably what you're saying right now is probably the most important takeaway that people should get from this.

50:29

This idea that, really, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you're watching if you're watching eight hours of it or something.

50:41

You're really not going to be growing in your relationship with Christ, and honestly, it's probably at the expense of your prayer time, reading scripture, trying to go evangelize, or discipling your family or your church members, whatever.

50:56

And so, at the end of the day, it's probably the wisest thing to say, like, well, probably 98 % of all people need to cut back on what they're currently consuming right now and spend that time doing other more fruitful things.

51:15

And I get that maybe that doesn't apply to every single person, but I think it does apply to most. So it's good that we think through these things and try and figure out what do we do with it all.

51:24

So hopefully this has been a helpful episode for you guys, and it's really blessed you. And our hope is that it encourages you to really think through these things for yourself and try and figure out what is going to most honor

51:38

God when it comes to what I allow myself to be entertained by, what I allow my family to be entertained by.

51:46

Basically, what am I putting in my mind? Because the entertainment, it still is putting ideas in our minds, whether we realize it or not, and they can be good things or they can be bad things.

51:58

So we need to be acutely aware of the situation we're in right now.

52:03

So hopefully this has helped you guys, it's blessed you guys, and encouraged you, equipped you for the works of ministry in your own life.

52:12

And so we thank you for supporting us, for listening to this episode, and we'll look forward to seeing you on the next one.

52:46

If you would like to be Bible bashed personally, then please know that we also offer free biblical counseling, which you can take advantage of by emailing us.

52:55

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.