Beth Moore Goes Egalitarian and Evangelicals Carry Water for Communist China

Beth Moore, Egalitarianism, and the Southern Baptist Convention

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. If you're looking for something lighthearted, today is not the day. I do have a podcast dropping Thursday morning, which is a discussion with Josh Sommer from the Sommercast on dating and marriage.

We're going to share our stories and whatever advice we have for that whole dating, courtship, marriage relationship. So yeah, I mean, that's more lighthearted. That's more fun to talk about. But this one, this podcast is not that.

This podcast, I'm going to be hitting some things a little harder. And we're going to talk a little bit about Beth Moore. She has pretty much, in my opinion, come out as egalitarian. Her egalitarian stripes are showing.

And then we're going to talk about the churches. And what I mean by church, I should qualify that, some big evangelical leaders, some popular preachers and so forth, ministry leaders, parachurch leaders, their reaction to this government overreach.

And I know I've hit this before. I'm going to hit it maybe harder in this episode and show you some things, including how I think many evangelicals, including many institutions like Fuller Theological, Christianity Today, etc., have been taken in by a Chinese Marxist propaganda line.

And they're carrying the water for the Chinese Communist Party, whether they realize it or not. I'm going to give you some of that evidence and share an article with you at the end of the video. And you can judge for yourself.

But it's crazy times we're living in. So first up on the social justice front, we have Beth Moore. Now, I did not think the story I'm about to share with you was really all that significant because let's face it, over the past year, Beth Moore has made a habit of publicly accepting, receiving invitations to preach at various churches, colleges, and she does so publicly.

And she said this, she's admitted this, to irk reformed brothers, meaning those who actually believe that the office of the pastor and the role of preaching is reserved for men. She publicly posts about preaching at various places to irk them, and she enjoys it or else she wouldn't do it.

So that's what Beth Moore has been doing. And I just thought, well, Southern Baptist Convention, bigwigs don't care enough about this to do anything because let's face it, in the SBC, the criticism, the pressure, it all flows in one direction.

If you're a conservative, if you're the Conservative Baptist Network, if you're Tom Askell and Founders Ministries, if you're someone who's concerned about what's happening at Southwestern in regards to Bobby Lopez being fired because he speaks out against homosexuality and he does so actually consistently, biblically, that not just homosexual actions but homosexual desires are sinful, he gets fired for it.

If you're someone who thinks that maybe hiring Karen Swallow Pryor at Southeastern isn't a good idea and you're going to be publicly vocal about that, you will receive criticism. If you have any kind of following, you will be criticized.

I've been criticized, very much so. I'm going to share more about that probably in my next video. But all that to say, we know which direction the criticism flows in. It does not reach liberals. In fact, by and large, liberals are protected in the Southern Baptist Convention.

And Beth Moore has been one of these liberals. Now I think it was about a year ago now, Al Mohler, without mentioning Beth Moore, started to kind of criticize something that she was saying. She was quoting Roy Honeycutt, who had advocated some basically egalitarian viewpoints.

And Albert Mohler made a Twitter post where he said that, I never thought I'd see the day, essentially, that Honeycutt would be coming back and Southern Baptist would be going back to where they were before the conservative resurgence.

And that was a really good moment for Al Mohler, but there's been about six or seven moments since then, probably more than that, where he's basically slammed conservatives or defended liberals. And so it's kind of like, where are you?

For the past year, Beth Moore has been doing this and you haven't said a thing. And she's one of the most popular figures in the Southern Baptist life. She's got almost a million followers on Twitter.

Now we all know this, if you've been paying attention at least, if you're concerned in the least about the leftward drift of the Southern Baptist Convention, you know about all this. So I thought, not a big deal, this story, but it actually does happen to kind of be a big deal.

And the reason is because this puts soft complementarians in a spot. Let me explain to you, I'm going to first share with you the story and then I'm going to explain why it puts them in a spot. So Beth Moore says, got to get, this is April 14th, by the way, on Twitter, got to get something off my chest.

Don't let, Twitter's the best place to do that, right? Just to get it off your chest. Don't go to your journal and privately write it down. You got to go to Twitter. So she's getting this off her chest.

Don't let churches disregarding social distancing tell you it's all about faith. Now, I don't, I'm not sure who she's talking about here, but I'm going to assume that there's some churches out there that are saying, the Lord has commanded us to meet.

We're not supposed to forsake the assembly of the saints. We need the full spectrum of gifts as outlined in first Corinthians chapter 12 represented in a physical way. We need the one another's to be able to be performed.

We need the sacraments or ordinances, depending on your tradition. We need those to be administered with right authority. I mean, this is part of what makes for a church. You learn this in ecclesiology class, or at least at one time you did.

Accountability is necessary. Church discipline is part of the functioning of a church. We can't do all these things if we're not meeting physically and the Lord has commanded us to. So out of faith, we're going to, and I haven't heard of any churches doing this irresponsibly.

I'm sure they probably exist, but the ones I've heard about, we're going to do so responsibly. We're going to do so while usually going above and beyond the CDC guidelines for social distancing. Certainly way more, way more caution is practiced in these churches than at your local Walmart or your Lowe's or your liquor store, or if Planned Parenthood is open, I'm sure Planned Parenthood, all these places that are open.

Churches, I would say from my experience from what I've seen, are probably the most cautious about meeting. Now, that being said, Beth Moore is saying, don't let those churches tell you it's all about faith.

It takes more faith to trust Jesus to build his church, despite empty sanctuaries, to sustain churches financially and bring people back who broke in the habit of going. Really? Really? So you think about this for a minute.

Financially, everyone's getting hurt just about. I mean, unless you're a big corporation who has been favored by the elites because you're essential and the mom and pop stores that are being completely ravaged by the status of being non-essential, unless you're in that position, you're an Amazon, a Walmart, or, you know, some big grocery store of some kind, you're being hurt big time right now.

And churches, whether they meet or not, are going to feel the brunt of that. Meeting doesn't magically make money appear necessarily. I don't know. Maybe it helps a little. I guess it could, but the bottom line is you're being hurt no matter what if the people in your congregation don't have jobs and aren't making money.

I mean, unless every single person in your congregation works at Walmart, then you're probably being hurt or for the government or some essential industry. Now, so she's saying that it takes faith to not meet because you have, basically, it's a financial thing.

And then to try to bring people back after breaking the habit, that's just so hard. It takes faith. I don't know. Compare the two. Does it take more faith to buck the trend of the rest of the entire society and say, I'm going to submit to the Constitution of my state, and I'm going to do so responsibly, and I know I'm going to take probably a lot of public criticism for it and possibly be arrested or fined for my stand?

Or does it take more faith to just go along with what everyone else is doing, receive, accept the government loan under the CARES Act, and just not to make any waves? I mean, which takes more faith? But Beth Moore apparently thinks it takes more faith to just not make waves and go along with everyone else.

Beth Moore’s Public Endorsement of a Woman Pastor

So then, so this is where the real story comes in. That was just the preliminary. I had, you know, I had to get something off my chest, just like Beth Moore. So I wanted to address that. Now, Lisa Saunders, or I guess it's Saunders, how it's pronounced, she responds to this.

She says, I assume I knew and first pastor it on Easter Sunday. Now stop. What she's saying, she's not saying I'm preaching on Easter Sunday. I happen to have a gig preaching somewhere. I'm filling the pulpit for a week.

That's not what she's saying. She's saying, and she's doing this with a capital P, pastor it. I assume I knew and first pastor it on Easter Sunday. So not a seasoned woman pastor, someone who literally, this is her first time, and she is entering the role for the first time of being a woman pastor.

I was on the phone preaching and singing with my new parishioners. I thanked these dear people for trusting me to shepherd them. Capital S, shepherding them. That's beyond preaching for a Sunday. That's taking the full role that is given to elders.

Shepherd. I'm now busily seeking God's wisdom on shepherding from afar. It's daunting, but there's grace. Now, before we read Beth Moore's reaction, I want to take you to a very familiar biblical passage, if you followed this debate at all, and it bears some repeating.

Let's review it real quick. 1 Timothy 2 -3. Apostle Paul, he says, verse 11, a woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Must mean cultural, right? This isn't an actual rule that's in effect today. This was during Paul's time. Well, the next verse, verse 13 says, for it was Adam who was first created and then Eve. And then he says, but it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived fell into transgression.

He's saying this is a creative norm. He's saying this goes back to Adam and Eve when I'm talking. It's nothing new. This is nothing new I'm sharing. This goes back to creation, Adam and Eve. And the context is the very next chapter about overseers and deacons.

Church leadership. And the male pronoun is used over and over in this. If a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God? Verse 5. Verse 8. Deacons, likewise, must be men of dignity.

Verse 10. These men must be first tested. Verse 12. Deacons must be husbands. I know there's some confusion in our culture today about what gender a husband is, but in Paul's time, there was no confusion about this.

Husbands were men. There is a passage in verse 11. It says, women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. And there's questions about, is there another role, a role for women being a deaconess maybe perhaps.

And the reality is if there is a role for women that in this passage, it is a separate role from the role that is given to men because we see the male pronouns all over the place. So in the context of church leadership and being an elder, being a deacon, men are the ones that are designated for that role, according to the apostle Paul in first Timothy.

And there's many other passages we can go to, but that's the one that often gets quoted. Now I want to read for you what Beth Moore has to say in response to Lisa Saunders receiving her first pastorate and shepherding.

Thank God there is no limit to his grace. I had to take a few minutes last night and mourn what may never be again and steady myself for the blessings ahead. These are new ministry days, Lisa, and he who calls us knows exactly how to equip us.

Now the significant part, the difference in this particular interaction, the difference between this and the other things Beth Moore has said is in this particular interaction, she affirms the calling not just to preach one Sunday, but an actual calling, a position, an office of Lisa Saunders in receiving and accepting her first pastorate, which involves shepherding, not just preaching.

And she's encouraging her with, hey, God called you to it. He'll provide. He'll give you the grace for it. That's what she's doing. Now, why is this significant? Well, it's significant for this reason.

I'm going to show you what the Baptist faith and message has to say about this. Baptist faith and message 2000, and I'll just read for you the relevant portion. It's under number six. The church says, while both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by the scriptures.

Now, this has been the debate thus far. This has been what Beth Moore has been able to, this is why she's been able to function in the way she has while preaching at various places and not raising as many eyebrows, perhaps as it should be raising.

There is a position called soft complementarianism, and there's a range within this position. I don't agree. I think it's a synthesis between egalitarianism and complementarianism. It's basically some kind of a neutral, not even neutral is the word.

It's a compromised position, but it is compromised. That's why I don't like it. I don't think it reflects biblical truth at all. And I usually bring it up and I'll bring it up this time. Danny Akin's probably a little more on the harder end of this soft complementarian perspective, but he's a soft complementarian.

And he likes to tout that he believes in the Danvers statement. And, you know, he believes in the Baptist faith message 2000, and he's, you know, rock ribbed, I guess, conservative because of these statements.

But, but he also says he wants to, he wants a more kinder and gentler complementarianism, those words. And I've shown you, I've, I've cataloged it on this podcast, how this has affected even students at the seminary.

They know what's going on. They know this is a new thing. This isn't something that was happening in the eighties and before that this is new. This is a kinder, softer complementarianism, which in Danny Akin's own words, which you can find, I've talked about it on this podcast.

I think A .D. Robles and I did a whole podcast where we, and the, on complementarianism and the last part of it, I think we examined one of Danny Akin's lectures on this, but Danny Akin says, yeah, I'd have Lottie Moon preach.

That's fine. I'd have a woman come preach for a Sunday. But the role, the office of pastor, now that's reserved for men. That's the compromised position, separating the office from the function, office of pastor, function of pastor.

Beth Moore has been able to slip under the radar with this because she's able to say, well, I'm not, not a pastor, not taking that office. I don't believe that the office of pastor, she doesn't even say that.

She, she's just as silent about it. So everyone guesses, but she, she's not saying that she believes the office of pastor is, is relegated for both men and women, or it's acceptable for both of them. So we give her the benefit of doubt.

We assume that she must be complementarian, a soft complementarian of some kind. She just thinks it's okay to preach once in a while. That doesn't mean you're, you're a woman pastor. It just means you're preaching once in a while.

And this is acceptable. This, this is fine thinking in today's Southern Baptist convention among many of the elites. Danny Aiken is one of them. It doesn't mean he believes every time Beth Moore does it, it's right.

Or, uh, but, but it means that he at least is opening, um, the possibility up to people like Beth Moore to justify preaching on a particular Sunday. Now this blows all that out of the water. This, this, this, this was Beth Moore's lifeline and she doesn't have it anymore.

And for people like myself, who are, I guess, complementarians or, uh, believe in, you know, biblical hierarchy that used to be called patriarchy. Now it's been so demonized, no one wants to use the term, but people like myself who believe in what the Bible says on this topic of the role of men and women, uh, we never thought Beth Moore was at least for the last year or two was, uh, in, within orthodoxy anyways.

So this may be not, this may, might not be a big deal to you and me if we're in that line of thinking, but to someone like Danny Aiken, who, who wants to tout that he believes Baptist faith message, which says while both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by the scriptures.

This is a big deal. And now we wait, now we need to see, we know where the pressure is in the Southern Baptist convention. If you're a Tom Askell and you happen to make a documentary called by what standard, you'll have everyone against you immediately.

As soon as you drop the trailer, all the seminary heads, just about Greenway and Allen and Moeller and Aiken, they'll be on you like a duck on a June bug. Uh, we know what happens if you, uh, you know, try to say something against what happened at Southwestern with Bobby Lopez.

Al Moeller's going to tweet and defend them. Al Moeller will defend Danny Aiken when people are critical of his hiring of Karen Swallow Pryor, who believes in revoice theology on some level, by the way, didn't say she endorsed every aspect of revoice.

Didn't say that she believes in homosexuality. I'm going to get into that hopefully in the next episode, the sneaky way they're trying to sell Karen Swallow Pryor to everyone. But she does in some level believe in revoice theology and people like Tom Askell have been critical of this.

Well, he gets slapped around for it. Let's see what happens with Beth Moore. Beth Moore is directly in violation of the Baptist faith and message 2000 for this. She has let us see what she actually thinks about the office of pastor.

Will she be rebuked? And if not, what does that say about the leaders in the Southern Baptist convention? What does that say about Danny Aiken, Al Moeller, Jason Allen, Adam Greenway, JD Greer, Kevin Ezel, the list goes on.

Do they care about their documents anymore or the documents not really matter? If you have, you know, a lot of books that you've published, you're popular and have almost a million Twitter followers. Let's see what happens guys.

This is a test. This is a moment for us to keep our eyes open because if they say nothing, then, and this has been publicized by the way, it's not like they're ignorant. If they say nothing, it says a lot.

It speaks volumes. Now let's switch gears a little bit. Let's talk a little more about this quarantine pandemic, et cetera, government overreach and how evangelicals are reacting to this. And then I want to ask a question.

Are evangelicals being played right now by Chinese communists? And so let's talk about that. Here's what Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan,.

Government Overreach, Essential Services, and the Church

Had to say about planned parenthood. As we speak in Texas and a couple of other states, I think Ohio may be another. The state has asked to suspend abortion services as part of this COVID -19 protocol.

This is probably going to go to the Supreme Court. What is your reaction to that? You're a governor. You have to make these decisions as well. There are other procedures.

That have been suspended. You know, we stopped elective surgeries here in Michigan and some people have tried to say that that type of a procedure is considered the same, and that's ridiculous. You know, a woman's health care, her whole future, her ability to decide if and when she starts a family is not an election.

It is a fundamental to her life. It is life sustaining, and it's something that government should not be getting in the middle of.

So churches need to be closed. They're not essential. You can't go to your friend's or family's house in Michigan because that would be dangerous. But planned parenthood needs to remain open because it's life sustaining.

It's so essential. It's within the fabric of what we would call an inalienable right. It can never be trampled upon because the culture of death is so important to these folks. They're doing so in the name of saving life, killing babies.

Now, I wish that I could say Michigan was the only state that was this totalitarian and secular and crazy, but I would be wrong.

That special order did make it clear that liquor stores here, like Discount Liquor and many others throughout southeastern Wisconsin and the entire state, are considered essential and can remain.

Open. A flashing open sign lights up liquor stores across New York State at a time when many businesses are closed. What makes liquor stores essential in the first place? Koerner says first.

It's a legal substance. Anytime I put restrictions on businesses, I run those restrictions through the Department of Health if we want to keep them employed. And there's really no reason from a policy perspective to not allow people to have a drink in their home, especially when we're.

Saying the government wants you in your home. So liquor stores are remaining open in many places. And by the way, that last clip that you saw, West Palm Beach, isn't that where Rodney Howard Brown was arrested for holding a church service?

But liquor stores are essential. Meanwhile, as liquor stores remain open,.

This is what's going on. And while home may be the safest place to be, it's not the case for everyone across the globe. Women and children who suffer from domestic violence have no escape.

From their abusers during quarantine. I'm outside of Cornerstone Advocacy Service here in Bloomington. This is where they run a 24 -7 domestic violence hotline, and they say in the past week, their call load has gone up 25%.

But that's not all. Governor Walls saying yesterday that last weekend, two out of three calls to police were related to domestic.

Abuse. So let's make sure we understand this. In many places, including West Palm Beach, by the way, I didn't show you the clip, but domestic abuse is on the rise there as well. Liquor stores are open.

Domestic abuse is on the rise. But churches are non-essential and need to be closed. How does that make any sense? Let me show you how New Jersey is justifying this. Liquor is essential. And the reason, and here's a quote from Paul Nestad, John Hopkins University School of Medicine, if someone is dependent on alcohol and they can't get alcohol, then they can go into withdrawal.

And that can put a load on hospitals, etc. All businesses, this is Sergeant Jeff Flynn of the New Jersey State Police, says were deemed essential after careful consideration of several factors, such as the impact on our healthcare system and transportation and accessibility to food, water, and hardware.

So New Jersey, they're making very careful, very careful decisions here on what is essential and non-essential. Churches don't make the cut, but liquor stores do. Think about that for a moment. Now, if that weren't enough, what is the governor of New York State saying about their attempt to flatten the curve?

Our behavior has stopped the spread of the virus. God did not stop the spread of the virus.

So to review, many states have kept their Planned Parenthood facilities open as essential. Governor of Michigan says it's life-changing. That's why it's essential because it's life-saving, is what she said, actually, life-saving.

Number two, many states are keeping liquor stores open as essential because of the public health crisis that would ensue if they didn't. However, domestic abuse is up and liquor stores are open. Doesn't seem like a great combination, but churches closed.

You can't go to those. Those aren't essential. Those don't address, I guess, the public health issue like alcohol does. And some people think, apparently, some municipalities that, well, it's not in the purview of the state or the magistrate and their local municipality to crack down on liquor stores because it's something that people can have in their home.

I guess that's the standard. But you can't gather at your home to worship the Lord in many places. I mean, this is kind of what we're seeing out there. And it's amazing to me. And then we have the governor of New York.

And if he says this again, I wouldn't want to be near him, lest lightning strike me as well. But saying, yeah, it's not God. God doesn't get credit for this. It's our efforts, even though New York has had more deaths than any other state, as far as I know.

But it's all the efforts of the government, what they're doing there. I mean, this guy's a tyrant. He's the one that said, hey, if we need ventilators, we're just going to take them. Privately owned citizens.

We're not asking. We're just going to go take them. And now, you know, God doesn't get any credit for flattening the curve. And so this is what's going on. This is a sampling of it. Now, I want to give you another sampling.

How is Big Eva responding? How are Christians responding to this? Now, there's some encouraging things in little pockets in different areas. Like, I think recently I heard that a pastor in Mississippi whose congregation was ticketed and fined for attending the service will sue the local municipality who did that.

And those kinds of things are happening. But it's small churches. Where is the—you would think a drum would be banging from the highest heights of big ministries, denominations, etc. You think the Gospel Coalition would be posting endless articles about this.

I mean, they care about abuse so much. What about the abuse that's going on against pastors and churches? The discrimination, right? Discrimination is such an issue. I guess it's only racial discrimination.

If it's religious discrimination or religious bigotry, they're not creating statements about this. What are they doing, though? What are they doing? Well, here's a couple things that they are doing. Number one, and this just shows you some of the anemic response that's being put out there.

ERLC on the 11th, new from Dr. Moore, most local and state authorities have operated well and in good faith. Let's keep it that way. So he's going to try to focus on the local and state authorities that are doing well and encourage churches to go along.

Okay, explainer. Here's the most aggressive they've gotten. Department of Justice statement of interest regarding religious freedom case in Mississippi. ERLC will continue to monitor and engage these situations.

So this is the situation in Mississippi where you had people showing up at a drive-in church and getting ticketed for it. They're going to monitor this while continuing to advocate for churches to cooperate in good faith with state and local authorities, as well as public health officials.

Churches and government remain critical allies in the fight against COVID -19 and we must continue to engage with each other to maintain trust and strong cooperation. Does that sound anything like a strong stand against the abuse and discrimination that is coming against pastors and churches?

No, it doesn't. Not one bit. This is not the kind of language they use when they think something might even smell like racism or sexism. No. And in fact, in that vein, here's what J .D. Greer has done.

J .D. Greer has launched in this pandemic the Church Cares website. We believe every church must be equipped to respond well in the initial stages of learning about instances of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse.

This is why we created Becoming a Church That Cares Well for the Abused. We have a 12-lesson program. Rachel Denhollander is helping out with it, so forth and so on. Context, guys. What's going on around you?

And this is where you're going to put your time and effort? This is the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. This is what his efforts are being put into right now. Not the obvious discrimination and bigotry against churches that are in his own denomination.

It's amazing. Amazing. And to soften the blow of not being able to go to church, I saw this. This is from David Platt's church, McLean Bible. And they sponsored this, which means they paid money to have this advertised.

Literally, they actually want people—this is what they want people to see on social media. This is from their Instagram. Ten benefits of going to church online for Easter. If you've ever been curious about church or why we celebrate Easter tomorrow, it's your chance.

So, this is going out, I'm assuming, to non-Christians. Hey, if you've been curious about us, now you can tune in to a live stream. Number one, there's no commute. Number two, get the closest parking spot.

Number three, no small talk. Number four, your church and restaurant for brunch. Lunch or dinner afterwards is the same place. Number five, refill your coffee anytime. Six, keep wearing your sweatpants if you want.

Seven, if you show up late, you can rewind. Back to the beginning. Eight, sing as loud as you want. Nine, get to have the pastor over to your house. Ten, connect with others in a season of social distancing.

Now, this would be funny, in a sense, if it was a conversation, perhaps, between believers, like, I don't know, like, in a small group or on the phone, like, hey, you know, look at, even then, it's not that funny to me, to be honest with you, but I could see it potentially being funny to someone.

But you're literally talking about a situation in which liquor stores and abortion clinics can remain open. And I happen to know they are in Virginia, so I know what's going on in Virginia, and this is the situation they're in.

They have one of the worst governors, as far as the crackdown is concerned. You have that going on. Churches are non-essential. Churches can't meet. Distancing guidelines and so forth and so on. So this is what's happening.

Grocery stores are petri dishes. I mean, I live in the same state. And this is what they want to put out there, especially for non-Christians to see. It's like, hey, look, it's convenient. It's a seeker-sensitive thing.

Wear your sweatpants. Don't have to find a parking space. Don't have to, you know, go through all that small talk, because that's so terrible, apparently, having to talk to Christians in small talk. And you can just get your bird's eye view.

You can be a fly on the wall. You can see what's going on inside our church. Don't you want to see it? We're going to be doing a live stream. So, hey, the live stream is good. This is a good scenario.

Ignore those other things. I've seen this a lot, and I could give you countless examples of it, but how often have you heard this phrase? And here's a bunch of churches that are pushing it. The church isn't the building.

It's the people, right? Here's some other examples of it. Church is the people. It's not a building. A number of churches trying to advertise that. You know, hey, here's one. I'll read it. Legacy North's Quiet Sanctuary is a great reminder that the church isn't a building.

It's the people. We can't wait to worship with you this Sunday at 9 a .m. Worship with you online, of course. Now, look, I'm not against pastors doing an online stream. I mean, churches I've gone to now for most of them have, the last few years, have some kind of an online stream to accompany their regular physical service anyways for those who are sick or to keep a record.

So, there's reasons for it. But that being said, to promote this as the ideal and to try out this false dichotomy that church isn't building, church is people, as if those are the two options. No, the church is the gathered assembly.

If you're a local church, not the universal church, right? There's the universal church, everyone who's saved. But the gathered assembly, the local church, means they get together. And in Western culture, that's happened in a building.

And the building is generally the most prominent structure in the town. It used to be. That's how the Puritans, when they came here, that's how they set up their town. It was all centered on the church.

That's why steeples are the highest thing in the town, most prominent. You have church bells that go off to remind everyone. Usually there's a hymn. I mean, I have one down the street from me here. It's very nice.

I hear hymns all day when, you know, as each hour passes. The Muslims have sort of a version of this that they still do in Muslim countries where they have the call to prayer. Well, it wasn't like in Western countries, in Christian civilization, it wasn't like that.

We had churches that were prominent that you could see and then you could hear with church bells. It doesn't say in the telling. It's a public witness to the community that this is where the gathered assembly meets.

And if you want hope, if you want to find the Lord, if you're searching for Him, that's the place to go. And you knew where to find it. It wasn't a secret. Apparently, we can just disregard all that now.

That church is just the people. That's all it is. No, it's the people publicly gathered. And you don't have that online. That's not a public gathering. You don't have the full spectrum of gifts as outlined in 1 Corinthians 12.

You can't practice necessarily all the one another's if you're not physically meeting. You can't do all the ordinances, certainly, online. I don't know how you would do baptisms, marriages, communion.

Not really. I mean, I've seen some attempts at this that, frankly, are frightening. You can't do a lot of these things. You have to physically meet. We're commanded in Scripture not to forsake the assembling of the saints.

And there's a lot of churches that are saying, well, on that basis, we have to meet. We have to obey God rather than men. And I've been through this before. I don't want to go into it again, necessarily.

I know the whole discussion about what if a hurricane comes through? Look, I grew up in the northeast. I know. I know what a blizzard's like. I never saw the government, though, ever mandate that you can't go to church.

It was just, hey, it's impossible to go to church today or impossible to do it safely because of the conditions outside. And neither would we go to the grocery store or the liquor store. We wouldn't go anywhere because the conditions are so bad.