Basic Exegesis and a Call from a Roman Catholic

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Sort of took a walkabout the first part of the program, discussing Australia and…various things. Then we took a call from Harrisburg on exegesis, then, after the break, Michael, a Roman Catholic from California, called, and we spent the rest of the show discussing prayer to Mary and related subjects.

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr
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White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the
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United States It's 1 -877 -753 -3341 and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a
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Thursday afternoon. Sorry about the voice, but unfortunately Spending 32 hours in hermetically sealed tubes
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Does tend to cause you to be exposed to all sorts of things feel better Than I sound but I would say to use a
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Star Trek analogy I'm definitely stuck on impulse power. The warp drive is definitely not working right now, but we're gonna do our best
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Welcome to the program. It has been it seems like a long long time I don't even remember how to do some of this stuff
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Do you remember how to do any of this stuff? You got the the thing started on time. That was good. Oh Thanks Great You were yawning right before the program started.
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That was great. I really helped to jazz me up get me going. That's that was good I appreciate that very like the 20 21st or 22nd century
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Fox I have that Yes It was just set in channel
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I need new dilithium crystals and I think it's probably true I Did watch
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Star Trek going out and coming back it did help to it really does That was a fun movie and it was really helpful to get time passing because when you have 12 to 14 hours to pass
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It's very very easy. You didn't like that Heresy yeah, yeah, you're you've died. Never mind, you know, by the way,
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I forgot to tell you one of the most common comments of everyone
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I met in Sydney and Brisbane people come up to me after I talk and They would say
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I listen to the dividing line all the time and Someone said to me and and I need to pass this on.
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He said whatever you do, please don't change the music That I Evidently really likes the this this
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Steve camp music So I just thought I'd pass that along that we have a specific request not change You know it occurred to me the other day that we really don't tell folks
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Where the theme music for the show comes from very much and where they can get it doesn't everybody know.
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I think we Presume that that's that's possible. That's possible In fact, someone asked me what the song title for the closing was and I had to sit there and go
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I think it's pound on Wittenberg's door Wittenberg's door. Yeah. Yeah, and then the opening is run to the battle
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Yeah, both by Steve camp and of course used by permission. Oh Steve. Yeah, it's correct so if you want to get those and you can get them from Audience one minute.
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Is it not a 1m? It's a 1m a 1m .org. I think so. Yeah, so you can do that.
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But it was There was a fellow who came up to me in Brisbane Well, first of all,
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I had three guys in Sydney who came up to me at the end that first night when I was totally brain -dead and the
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Sydney Atheists show up and I had three guys came up to me and thankfully they're Reformed Baptist.
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So I didn't feel like they were about to jump on me I think and they said we have a very very very important question to ask you and I'm like Okay, and they said where did you learn to correctly pronounce
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Brisbane? Because all the Americans always pronounce it incorrectly and I breathe the deep sigh of relief, but another guy came up to me in Brisbane and He told me that after he was converted he ended up in a seventh day
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I'm going off memory here, but I think was a seventh -day Baptist Church and Even in that discovered that Arianism was being preached from the pulpit and The only thing that what he used to battle back was the
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YouTube videos and There were a number of people down there that were commenting on how useful the
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YouTube channel was so again, just amazing around the other side of the earth and That can those kind of resources very very very useful to folks.
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It was very very encouraging Yeah, I would say that most of the phone calls I get are generated by the YouTube channel Really?
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Yes. Wow, of course, they don't seem to really like Since since family radio played the debate haven't you other than us?
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I've got a number of emails Some very pleased and others not so happy isn't
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They tend to type in all caps and all caps and keep saying you never quoted the
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Bible Bible he wrote the Bible all the time and And of course, all you did was ad hominem.
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I know Yep, how do you how do you Harold camping was so interactive the whole time?
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How do you go about? Pointing out that the man is a false prophet without saying that he's a false prophet
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You know, the scary thing is on May 22nd 2011 half those people will still follow him
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Sure, they'll just be waiting for the new excuse. That's what's gonna happen So anyway, so a number of folks back there sort of said hi to you to to the second voice on the dividing line
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Say hi to rich, you know, they they know you work hard. So it was very encouraging. It really was today, mate
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Good. I might it's a note. I got a lot of that. I got a lot of but Australians accents are not nearly as thick.
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No as Crocodile Dundee, but they did say that if I went to the Outback, it would be that thick
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Skyping with Cranmer. Yeah, but he's not Australian. That's true But he obviously has been affected because just about every sentence that he ended with mate mate
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Uh -huh. Yeah, every so yeah, that's true David old. Yes, one of the few actually there's a lot of Orthodox living
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Anglicans down there. That was that was the other thing was to meet the the very strange breed of Orthodox 18th 19th century
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Anglicans in Sydney the Sydney Diocese down there and to teach it more college and so that was all really encouraging to so already
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Discussions going on about New Zealand Melbourne Brisbane and Sydney again Might have to divide that into two trips.
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Maybe do it every other year or something like that Because I don't know if I can handle that That's that's that's a long a long ways it was it was good
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But great times in Sydney more college. I put the debate up.
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Oh, by the way people kept asking Well, why aren't you? Webcasting this stuff because I didn't have access to internet when
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I when I have my little when we did the Imam Shams Ali Debate which by the way, we're going to be doing again in November Lord willing in New York On Jesus in the
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Quran in the Bible, which would be a great opportunity But when I did that I had that cool are cool neat little teeny tiny
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PC but I had my broadband modem and My broadband modem does not work
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Of course in Australia my BlackBerry did but I can't I can't use my BlackBerry to tether to my
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Mac or to anything else That matter And it wouldn't I don't think it would have allowed me to do that down there Anyways, so I would have had to have access to the
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Internet now when I was at the hotel Paying 2750 a day for internet.
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It was actually pretty good But at the hotel Phil and I were at the the wireless was worthless
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It would burst for 10 seconds and then sit there for 30 and so there's no way I could have done dividing lines
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I couldn't broadcast that stuff because You're saying am I out of town to pay for the expensive stuff today to see in the
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Northern Hemisphere We would call those jackrabbit starts I Think that probably would have been appropriate.
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Yes. I didn't eat any kangaroo. By the way, I was offered it I did I said nothing. I would have been all over that man. Yeah. Yeah.
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Absolutely. I guess I could have well No, I could not have brought any kangaroo Jerky back for you because they they were really really strict about what
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I could bring and I had to declare my cashews Going to go I Had a hair
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I got some cashews and some M &Ms I have to tell it a quick story on you that you don't know about.
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Oh great David David. Where's where's the where's the Skype? I control the vertical and the horizontal and He he
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Skypes me and he's gonna take you out to dinner that evening. Oh, yes, and And he says, you know, good night, mate and wants to know where He can take you to dinner because we've got you in a in a very nice area of town and there's all these wonderful restaurants around and I said
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Is there a McDonald's nearby? And you know people are gonna think I always don't eat at McDonald's that often, but I travel he's thinking
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I'm kidding He's like you're kidding. Okay, come on now. We're gonna go for fish and chips, you know, and I say well, you know
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Is there a Long John Silverstone? You know now I do need to tell you a story about that though.
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Let me okay. Go ahead Well, let me let me finish this though. What is hilarious is he finally gets the picture and he goes?
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Okay. So what we have here is a cheap date And I said, yeah, that's pretty much what you got there.
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It's gonna be pretty and he goes, okay. Well, I'll I'll tell the kids And we ended up at McDonald's and that's where I that they say that was after Seeing p91 at Macquarie University and we we had to rush.
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We wouldn't have had time to do much one way or the other there so we we did a takeout which is a drive -thru there, but They had this picture, you know, the
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Angus burger that we have here in the States, you know That's a big burger and it's a good burger But they had that same picture
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But when you got it, it was as big as the cheeseburger in a Happy Meal I'm serious.
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The portions there are one half the size that they are here. They really really are so metric doesn't exactly
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Know it did not translate at all, but he did take me. Have you seen finding
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Nemo? Yes, of course Okay, do you remember when they get to Sydney Harbor? Uh -huh.
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Do you remember the? Seagulls. Yes, they were pretty radical. Okay, I Now know why
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Okay, David and I sat we drove out to the edge to the end of the of the bay in in Sydney and There's this fish and chips place
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It gets it's pretty famous fish and chips place because there's a lot of people around there And so we order fish and chips and we go over to sit on these benches.
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Well, there's seagulls. I open my thing up and Literally a seagull flew into my face trying to get the first bite out of my hand.
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I It was I mean all I see is the bottom end of a seagull in my face trying to get my food and the rest of time
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I'm sitting there kicking at these things on this bench to get him back because they're just like and they get a little closer and get a little closer and I'm I'm worried that I'm gonna pick up a french fry and There's one you see there's a girl in my take a bite.
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I I could not believe it So now I know why in finding Nemo those seagulls in Sydney were so utterly insane because they are
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It was this was real -life research that ended up in finding Nemo. So I thought everyone would like to know that Thank you for letting me share that story
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Anyway Probably talk about something theological.
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It might be a good idea. You're probably get some some complaint letters now I listen to the dividing line for my theological input and you talked about feeding seagulls.
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I didn't feed any seagulls They fed themselves off of my food. It was it was pretty wild But anyways,
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I do not by the way eat McDonald's that that often I really don't not when I'm here But when
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I travel I have discovered there's one little trick Eat something that your body is used to and I will tell folks don't bother taking me to fancy restaurants when
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I travel because I When I travel I eat small portions the first place and I just don't like it
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It's and you're definitely not used to eating fancy food. No, no Nope. Nope. Nope. So so, you know take him to the best prime rib place you can possibly think of I mean where prime rib melts in your mouth and he'll order a hamburger.
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Yeah. Well, we went to sizzler. I had fish and chips In fact, in fact,
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I asked the lady if the kids menu was still available and she says well I can upsize it for you
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So I had the kids fish and chips thing. Yeah, I'm just not no anyway, but did have a great time down there in in Australia great folks and it is a strange place because it is so Much a mixture of the
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US and the UK and having been the UK now a good bit I can see that even in the language
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Sometimes they'll like GPS. They call them GPS the British column sat nav
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But they call them GPS. So but then other places they'd use the same terminology at the
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British use So it's a very very very interesting only 20 million people in the entire continent
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I mean, there's more people in the Metro, New York area than in all of Australia.
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So it's It's very very interesting so it was it was a great time. Thanks for everybody who helped to make that a reality and Hopefully I'll get over whatever
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I brought back with me fairly soon, but it's knocking me for a loop right now that's there's there's no twist, but I and like I said,
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I'm The voice is the voice but anyhow Like I said coming up in November We are looking at in fact.
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I was just talking with Chris Arnz on the phone He sounds as good as I do. In fact, he sounded worse than I do He's got something too, but he didn't go to Australia to get it
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Trying to get the details hammered out for an early November date back east with Imam Shamsi Ali Jesus in the
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Bible in the Quran Santa Fe I'm heading your direction For I don't think we have anything on the website on this.
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Unfortunately yet. I had hoped to get something up there But I didn't get that done But I'll be at the
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CERN o9 conference at a Calvary Santa Fe. Yes, Calvary Santa Fe. It's that Calvary.
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It's the same one. I was at last year Dr. Bruce Ware and I and some others will be speaking and I get to speak on all my favorite
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Topics while I'm there. So that'll be good and Then two weeks later as the website does announce
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Dan Barker and I will be debating on the uniqueness of Jesus up in sort of Southwest a little bit of Portland at the end of September And then in October, I'm up in Montana and I'm also in Southern, California at the at the
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Southern Baptist Southern Baptist. Sorry guys reform Baptist get together once to come once a quarter in Southern, California and I'll be speaking at that for a reformation weekend and then early
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November, New York and we're looking at trying to put together a Debate in st.
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Louis this time because I'm going there for my 10th year The first weekend in st.
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Charles actually first weekend in December there in December January I'm gonna be teaching an apologetics class in Mill Valley in Northern California at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary and I think in February.
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I'm supposed to be back in Georgia somewhere and also in the UK or going So, can you tell
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I've got a lot of stuff coming up? Lots of good opportunities. It's going to be it's going to be a great fall as long as we stay healthy so with all of that said
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I appreciate your indulgence in talking about some of those little things, but Actually We have a caller on the line who can possibly help
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With spelling of the word exegesis, but let's talk with I know it's a very small screen
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It really it no No, here. Let me There we go,
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I Just I just sent the message over to Anyway, let's let's talk with Gino in a place that I lived and for six years
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Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Just over in Camp Hill. Actually, you know that Yes, I went to Bible Baptist Church was baptized in Bible Baptist Church in Charlemontown, Pennsylvania Went to Ross Moyan Elementary School and the whole nine yards
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Wow, yes Well, in fact, let me tell you in 1994
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I went back there. It had been over 20. Well, we had been 20 years 20 21 years as I've been there and the weird thing is, of course,
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I left when I was 11 So I never drove in Harrisburg, but when I drove into Harrisburg in a in a rental car
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I never took a wrong turn the entire time. I was there I drove directly to both of our houses directly to our church the whole nine yards and I never missed a turn and I had
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Never driven in Harrisburg before isn't that weird? That is weird. Thank you. I always seem to get lost as soon as I go into like the main city area
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It's ridiculous What can we do for you? Do you know Colonial Park progress area? But uh, you know,
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I like I keep going back to that one You remember brother Peter when he called and he was asking about Your view of justification yes.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh -huh. Yeah, I Remember I was uh, I keep listening to that over and over again
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I mean, I remember thinking so wait a minute I got a little piece of that of the puzzle of how he does exegesis because the passages would discuss the topic first and Then makes application elsewhere
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Given what the inspired text says at those places where uses the term out of stuff
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But I kind of wanted to get more detail like what is your process for exegeting text like something
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I could use for Bible study well there it is a Skill that any
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Christian really really needs to cultivate and it is something that takes some time but and while there are spiritual elements to dealing with scripture the foundational elements are the same elements that we would we would utilize in In analyzing any written text, especially from antiquity
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And and that is you you start with the the key Term and that is context
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You none of us would want to have our writings Whether they be emails or whatever else it might be interpreted outside of the context in which they were originally intended and Yeah, and yet that is that is probably the single most ignored
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Elements, it's real obvious when you look at a herald camping. Okay context nothing the herald camping it
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The whole text is is just this big mash of words that you can form put in any form you want
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But the problem is in a Roman Catholic context Context itself is frequently provided by the dogmatic teaching of the church rather than the immediate context of a particular
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Passage of Scripture, so there's there's all sorts of issues that go in the context which includes who the author is
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What his background is if you know, you don't always know Well, yes
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Somewhat, but even then we have some good idea given the author's knowledge of the
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Greek Septuagint something about the Judaism That he would have been familiar with in what's called
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Second Temple Judaism in the first century and things like that so you actually can Garner some knowledge of what the the author was like there
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But certainly with a Paul or with a John or something like that, though Those are important things, but you also need to know something about who it's being written to and that's very useful
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Definitely, especially, you know, what was Corinth like what was Ephesus like? It's very difficult to handle the first few chapters of Revelation appropriately without Exactly all that kind of stuff is extremely important then what about The next step of context is the author so you can look at Paul and look at how he uses language you can allow
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Romans and Galatians to help Shed light on each other and then the next step down from that is the book itself the overall argument of Romans the overall argument of Galatians the overall argument of Philippians and that's where people really tend to break down because I personally think a
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Christian who's been a Christian for a number of years should be to the point where you you certainly would have in your mind a general outline of Most of the major books of the
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Bible. It's not so much memorizing every scripture in the Bible I know lots of folks who memorize scriptures, but they couldn't give you a breakdown of Galatians or the argument of Galatians or things like that.
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That's sometimes missing the the the forest for the trees shall we say It's really good, you know a lot of Study Bibles would give you things like that, but I'm not a big study
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Bible person but if that's where you want to get it that that's great, that's fine, but it'll give you the the flow of the arguments and How it works and then you get down to the passage context
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And and of course you can even get down even more closely to the syntax of words of sentences and things like that, but so many people treat the
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Bible as if it is just simply a Cookbook where you open it up and you pull out a text and and there's a lot of piety
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That sort of promotes that kind of view of the Bible, you know people saying well you know I was praying and all of a sudden there was a gust of wind a breeze blew by and I looked down and My eyes opened and I saw this verse and I claimed it for myself and and you know
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We chuckle a little bit, but let's face it. That is a very very very common form of Piety, but you're not allowed to question
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You know don't dare question that or you're being a mean nasty terrible horrible person and you're unloving and you don't have the spirit and blah blah blah blah
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Unfortunately when that ends up being the stuff that fills the pulpit then you got a real problem, but So anyways going back to Jesus context context context so vitally important I realized that as a young man
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Thankfully because I was already dealing with Mormons and so when I took classes like Old and New Testament backgrounds and stuff like that I didn't fall asleep because I realized that was very very very important in being able to Honor the text by handling it in in a correct manner
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So that sort of descending levels of context is very important Obviously the original languages are extremely important because while we have many fine
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English translations And we can compare them with one another and we need to know what other translation.
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We're using is One that is a formal equivalency dynamic equivalency
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We need to know something about whether it's literally rendering words or whether it's could be translating thoughts and things like that So that even our comparison is knowledgeable And that we're not using paraphrases like the message and stuff like that as if that was somehow a translation of the
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Bible From which we could actually derive theological truths You put all that together and you have a solid foundation upon which to work to do one thing and that is to pull from the text the meaning rather than Creating the meaning in my own mind and inserting it into the text and saying oh,
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I think this could fit here I think this could fit there One of the main things that Peter was doing was and this is something
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I've criticized Roman Catholics for doing for a long time It's not like they can help themselves It's what their leaders have done and defined for them in the dogmatic teachings of church down to the the centuries
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So they're sort of stuck with it But yeah it the analogy I've used over and over again has been you you go to the places in Scripture Where you have specific lengthy discussion and you do you derive your theology from there?
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And then when you look at other places that mention it in passing You don't create the you don't take the in passing references and create your theology from that and then overthrow the plain text and I've used the the
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Instructions the the owner's manual to a car as an example You can look up the word lights in the index and lights will be mentioned lots of times
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But there's going to be a section about the lights and you go there first because that tells you how to operate the lights and so On and so forth and if they're mentioned someplace else fine and dandy but you don't go over to the the secondary references and Create some theology of that and then overthrow the primary references and that's what
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Peter was doing And that's what Roman Catholics as a whole have to do because if you if you go through the text on Justification, which is what we were discussing and you allow the entire chapters
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Romans 3 Romans 4 Romans 5 if you allow them to speak as a whole and work through that or John chapter 6 and Jesus teaching the synagogue
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Capernaum if you allow those texts to stand as a whole Well, then these idiosyncratic views that people develop over the centuries aren't going to stand up And so what you what you do is you you go to these other texts these secondary texts create a theology and then overthrow the plain
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Teaching that's that's what Rome does and Mormonism does and the Jehovah's Witnesses do and so on and so forth
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And that's why I keep saying exegesis exegesis. It's the it's the marrow of theology. It's the marrow of apologetics as well
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I see and and that makes sense like You know, it's funny.
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My one friend is a is a Roman Catholic actually wants to be a Roman Catholic priest well, which
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I told him he was not but I Remember like him and I'll have like little debates and arguments and stuff
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But it's it's funny to watch him realize If he faces up to the standard that I'm trying to hold it to with with the text of Scripture.
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He's like, ah Well, you know well, and what's more is if he really is serious about the priesthood and you know
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You can you can respect someone for wanting to be serious about their faith It's just a shame to be going that direction
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Which is going to lead him to taking an oath in which he is identified as an altar
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Christus another Christ That's the tragedy of something like that it would be wonderful to see such a person come to know what the the true gospel of grace is and then dedicate that kind of zeal to the ministry of the word, but The education that he would receive is not education how to do exegesis.
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It's an education in philosophy and The laws of the church it is not an education that is going to drive him ever deeper into the text
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I have not found Roman Catholic priests to be individuals who are exceptionally skilled in in the field of exegesis and and why should they if they don't believe in solo scriptura
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Why in the world would you go that direction? Anyways, so definitely but keep praying for him. Keep witnessing to him, you know, and Say hi the
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Susquehanna River for me as you drive over at some time Alright, thanks a lot Yes, good good, all right.
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Well, we try to help folks out All right. Thank you God bless.
29:41
Bye -bye All right, so let's go ahead and take a break let my voice recover a few moments and we'll be right back right after this
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Thank you. I Am actually for those of you who are interested in such things, which you may not be but I'm sort of rambling today anyways
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Working on a new opening and closing for the videos in high -def
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You notice that YouTube went to the 16 by 9 Format, I don't know six months eight months ago
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I don't remember what it was, but that meant I would have to redo everything. I didn't want to do that Well, someone was a very kind.
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I know who it is. Thank you very much I think that he is a regular listener to the vying line while I was in the the land down under Where they they they they will not speak long words, they
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Abbreviate everything like registration is rego Everything sends with an O or an
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E, you know put a strip on the Barbie barbecue is too long of a word to say So you it's Barbie and rego and it's just really weird.
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Anyway, well, I was down in Australia this fellow 7 .46 months ago. Thank you very much
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Lane This fellow donated the flip video unit and I had seen these
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I think someone in England had Sent me a link to these flip video things and it's a it's a little video unit very small but has a flip out
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USB thing and You plug it in to your computer and this thing does
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HD recording. I used it last night I spoke in prayer meeting. So I used it last night and Wow is the quality high now, of course,
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I have to Pull that down a little bit to have any type of decent shot of getting it uploaded to YouTube anyways
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But I suppose if you start with a good product it ends up looking better anyway, and so I'm redoing the openings and closings and In a 16 by 9 format so that it'll fit that new box.
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So I'm working on one right now Don't know if I'll get up tonight, but I am working on that stuff.
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So Anyways, we're very appreciative when folks send us really cool stuff like that.
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So We will put it to good use. I can't necessarily use it for my debates though because it only records two hours shorter debates
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I could I could have used in Sydney for example for the Abdullah Kunda thing But most of my debates are significantly more than two hours
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So but I will use it for various talks and things that I do and stuff like that so much much appreciated
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And I'm gonna try it in the office because it's HD so it might look real good
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We'll see what what the sound quality looks like and we'll see see what comes out with that So we will continue putting up YouTube stuff every time
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I travel and hear folks Talk about how they've been blessed by that. Well that just Reignites the fire to keep putting putting that material out there
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Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I did have stuff queued up from William Lane Craig today We might get to it, but let's go ahead and start.
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Let's go ahead and take another phone call with Michael over in California. Hello, Michael.
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Hi. Hi is the state still solvent or are you all? Going to the local pawn shop.
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I'm sorry, California. You're in California, right? You know Sorry a little bit of humor they're not related your question just I didn't know if because honestly once I went to Australia I didn't even know
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Brett Favre signed with the Vikings when I left He was still in retirement and I come back and he's in a
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Vikings uniform. I and they didn't care in Australia They didn't really didn't discuss that and they haven't been discussing, California either.
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So that's why I didn't know Okay, do you know who Brett Favre is
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I know Go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead.
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What's your question? Yeah, I'm a I'm a Catholic and I Some I wanted to know if you think this is a good argument from the
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Protestant side Concerning Mary and and I asked because I hear it quite a bit. I don't know if you've used it or not
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I'm sad to say I don't know but I Hear this a lot like if they say if Mary in heaven can right now here
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Thousands or millions of prayers simultaneously for people all these petitions at the same time
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That would amount to giving her God's attribute of either omniscience or omnipotence
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Are you familiar with that argument? Yeah, it came up in Actually, it was an audience question in the debate with Patrick Madrid on prayer to veneration of saints and angels in New York I forget what year that was 2003 or something like that someone in the audience
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Specifically asked that question of mr. Madrid and we actually covered that A number of months ago when we replayed that entire debate and commented on it.
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So I've I've heard it I did not make the presentation. I would not put it necessarily in those terms
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I would say that there is absolutely positively no biblical evidence whatsoever
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That any redeemed human being and that's what Mary is she is a redeemed human being and and Rome would agree with that except they would say that she's redeemed by the preemptory application of the merits of Christ's sacrifice
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That protects her from original sin. So she would be unique on those lines, but still it would be you would be redeemed in that way
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There is no evidence whatsoever that any redeemed human being in heaven is the recipients of Prayer on earth my my big problem with that is aside from the
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Logistics of what it would be it would involve for Mary to hear simultaneous prayers
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You know, I suppose you could make an argument from Rome's side that well God just miraculously allows that to happen
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Maybe he changes the nature of time as Mary experiences it. So she only hears it one at a time.
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I don't know The problem is that prayer is an act of worship and it doesn't go to a human being in the first place and that the only text that Rome has ever come up with That they use to substantiate something like this is that the
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Saints? in one one passage in Revelation have bowls hold bowls
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That have the the that's not the Saints 24 elders that have the prayers the Saints in them
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Well how that means that that those who have died and gone to heaven are the recipients of prayers we're not told but that's the the fundamental issue that I raised was that I do not believe that there is the slightest reason for believing and I don't believe any of the
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Apostles ever taught in any way shape or form that Mary Has been in in essence cursed with having to hear all of the ignorance and sinfulness of mankind
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For the entire history of the church in the form of prayer. It's just not biblical.
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It's not Something the Apostles ever taught. It's not it's just simply not true. So Your particular argument that you've heard.
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I think there's a grain of truth to it in the sense that You basically simply have to say well
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Mary ceases to be Mary it's some miraculous thing that God does that allows
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Mary to hear all these prayers and so on and so forth But I have numerous times especially in debates with Muslims had to defend the
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Roman Catholic Position not that I was taking it but saying no Rome is not elevating
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Mary to the status of deity They try to avoid that but very clearly given the unbiblical nature of the exaltation of Mary It's certainly easily understandable why people would understand that Okay So there's a
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I believe there's a scripture in 1st John that talks about The beatific vision, you know, we we will be like him because we will see him as he is
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Now the Catholic position on this which Allows for Saints in heaven to continue and to pray for their loved ones who are suffering on earth
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That seems to be more consistent with that text because if we ask what God is like Well, we know that he is loved and that he loves us so much
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Cares for us suffering people here on earth so much that he's going to become one of us to suffer for us with us and by us for our sake and So it seems if we're going to be like him because because we're going to see him as he is then it seems like the
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Blocking Saints once they go to heaven from being able To intercede on the behalf of their suffering brethren.
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Doesn't it seem like that would be making them less like God Notice what you just What you said first John 3 2 says beloved now
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We are children of God and has not appeared as yet But we will be we know that when he appears we will be like him because we will see him just as he is
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So that's not talking about Anything more than the fact that when we are in the presence of Christ That our sanctification is complete the idea that that somehow something that somebody with blocking
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Saints I don't know. We're blocking Saints from interceding
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I don't I already have an intercessor and I only have one intercessor that has a ground to intercede for me
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And that is Jesus Christ. There is no ground for someone else to intercede Outside of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for me so the
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Saints in heaven while they are alive in Christ do not have communication with those who are on earth and even if You get past that somehow.
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I do not need some Secondary ground of intercession to where those
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Saints then are going to be taking my sinful petition petitions because my petitions are often marked by Selfishness and ignorance and things like that.
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That means the Saints in heaven are always going to be constantly Bombarded with with the what's going on on earth as far as our sinful actions and things like that The Saints in heaven are in at rest in Christ.
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They're worshiping God They're not Yeah, I understand your point and that's what
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I was trying to address with the text from 1st John it's because we're gonna be more like a
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God when we're in heaven and The God is he's not
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He's not affected by our sinfulness down here, you know to where he's not going to do something about it
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And come down here and get his hands dirty So if the Saints in heaven are more like him, aren't they going to be more willing to help their brethren?
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And don't you believe in intercessory prayer? I believe that individuals on earth can pray for others not based upon anything
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I have done or based upon any merit that is mine But there is no evidence that there is communication between those who are alive on earth and those who are alive in heaven
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That's just prayer is an act of worship and you do not worship anyone
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But God only God is worthy of worship If I if I ask you to pray for me,
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I'm worshiping you I don't I don't get it. No if you pray to me, then you're worshiping me
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I said prayer is an act of worship and it is to be directed only to God not the
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Saints not to angels and Not to Mary Okay, so you're assuming a continuing communication
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With people who have passed from this life. That is not a biblical Position to take that's the first thing you're assuming and Secondly, you say well, we're gonna be more like God.
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Well, okay Does that mean we start creating things because that would be like God does that mean we start ruling over things?
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No, of course exact gap between creatures and God is infinite Exactly, but but you know asking
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God to help your suffering brethren is doesn't require infinite But that requires the
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Saint in heaven to know about what's going on on earth Which again takes us back to this idea that somehow there is this
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That Saints are not at rest and peace in Christ They're observing all the sin and all the stuff that's going on here on earth and and they're involved in all this stuff
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Which there's no biblical evidence that that is the case Okay What about you know where Christ said there's more when somebody repents when one sinner repents
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There's all this rejoicing in heaven, how do they know that sinner repented in order to rejoice over it well again
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Listen to what Jesus is saying. He's talking about the fact that there is more rejoicing that is
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Those in the heavenly realms rejoice in the accomplishment of God's purposes Not in anything else not in the 99 that was in the context of the 99
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Righteous ones and the one person that was redeemed He was rebuking Jewish attitudes at that point that did not see it necessary for The truth to go to Gentiles and things like that to read into that the idea that they're looking down here
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And it's like a big cheering squad in heaven or something like that and that therefore They're seeing this stuff and then we pray to them and then they go to God and and and and pray for us so that there's this
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You know maybe a transfer of grace or merit or whatever else it might be well however things like that again
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There's just simply no evidence for anything like that you're taking a practice that developed long after the apostolic period and You're reading it back into text that never had that kind of meaning in the first place and the question is why?
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Why in the world would you believe that there is anyone other than God that you should pray to and I've read
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I've read what the answer for many Roman Catholics Especially in regards to Mary, you know
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Yeah, we kind of got off on the you know Saints interceding and that's really not specifically what
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I wanted to talk about although It's relevant I believe that and I think you believe this too that the creator creature distinction is of absolute fundamental importance and well
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God's Knowledge and will and operation for that matter are identical with this infinite being and so if if you alter his knowledge will or operation then you've altered his being and So it seems like whatever
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Catholicism and Protestantism differ in those cases that the
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Protestants Would have are attributing either a different knowledge will or operation to God Than the
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Catholics in that case and I think the case can be made in every one of those cases
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The difference on the Protestant side is going to tend to undermine that creator creature distinction
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Give me an example. Yeah, the first thing I brought up about Mary, you know this I hear that objection constantly
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There's probably the one I hear the most that's why it's the first one that came to my mind You know that if if Mary is simultaneously receiving all these petitions
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Then she would have to be on omniscient or omnipotent and and my response to that is no it
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It's a finite number of petitions going up at any given time. So it only requires a finite
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Power up to that task and God is certainly capable of making that kind of power Well, again it again, especially when it comes to the
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Marian dogmas Rome has has already So surpassed anything that could be even be slightly called biblical that you can you can come up with an answer for anything
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I mean, how does Mary hear 10 million people praying to her at the same time? Well because she's married
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God makes it happen Because she's been bodily assumed in heaven because she's the queen of heaven. I mean once you've gotten there
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It really doesn't matter. I don't see how any of that is relevant to the creator creation distinction But I think there is in Roman Catholic teaching.
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Let's let's just consider this parallel between Jesus and Mary according to Roman Catholic teaching
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Jesus was predestined to be the Redeemer Mary was predestined to be the Redemptrix Jesus was virgin -born
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Mary was immaculately conceived. Jesus was the incarnate deity the Son in human flesh, right? I understand where you're going.
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I like in all those cases the terminology Being used to describe
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Mary's operation or knowledge There is equivocal from you know from what the same terms being used of God Yeah, but it's the it's the number, you know
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You can you can come up with an excuse for any one parallel, but I only did three of I of 12
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In every case I think it can be shown that there's some equivocation going on When you have a consistent pattern
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Michael, that's where the problem is you see if you can explain one Okay, but then when you have to explain two three four twelve
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That's where it becomes rather obvious to me that one of the greatest problems in Roman Catholic dogma is this exaltation of Mary to a position that the
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Apostles never understood her to have and never taught her to have well, I could respond like for example
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You brought up the Immaculate Conception in in Pope Pius the 9th. Oh enough of Beulah's He did say that Mary being immaculate can immaculately conceive was a singular grace and privilege the
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Almighty Infinite God It cannot receive graces or privileges only a creature can receive such things being higher than it, of course
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So, I mean, I don't see how that is defying Mary seemed like the very language built into the encyclical itself
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Makes that impossible. Well, of course Rome tries to protect its foundational dogmas
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But again, the issue is so was the virgin birth a unique event?
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The point is that there is a parallel that is being drawn between Mary at each one of these points that Results in the massive amount of idolatry that takes place all around the world every day when people bow down and like Candles to Mary and pray to her that's idolatry.
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It is biblically idolatry You can never show me where anyone in the New Testament ever Approved any kind of practice like that or ever taught anyone to engage in a practice like that at all
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It's not what the Apostles delivered to the Saints. It's not the ones for all delivered the
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Saints faith That's the foundational issue Can I ask you another a question relevant to to this, you know
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God being simple and infinite and all that on the Eucharist Do you think this is a good argument because I hear this one a lot as well that the
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Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation amounts to a denial of the Incarnation Because it gives the divine attribute of omnipresence to Christ's humanity and not just to just as divinity
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But his humanity. Are you familiar with that argument? And do you think it's a good one? Well, I'm familiar with with the arguments
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Especially in regards to Lutherans and the concept of the ubiquity of the body of Christ and issues related there, too
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I have not used that particular argument because I think there are far more fundamental arguments that demonstrate the error at that particular point not only the
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Lack of any type of sacerdotal priesthood that has the power to do this But also the simple reality that to even address the concept of a representation of the one sacrifice of Christ Especially asserting that it's a propitiatory sacrifice as Rome does is so flatly contradicted by plain biblical teaching that to even go beyond that into speculation beyond that is is
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Unnecessary for a person who honors the Word of God as the Word of God and seeks to follow it and believe it Okay Well, I thank you for your time.
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And I hope we get a chance to talk again someday. Okay. Well, thank you, Michael Bye -bye.
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I Don't think that last point was fully understood but I was about to go to Hebrews chapter 10 and emphasize the singularity of the sacrifice of Christ and Demonstrate that Rome's constant assertion that the mass is a representation.
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It's the same sacrifice Simply is is not a tenable assertion whatsoever, but I appreciated
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Michael's questions I I do hear elements. There's elements of truth in each one of the issues that he raised there is a concern as to I think the separation of the the
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God man in the concept of transubstantiation But transubstantiation is just so far removed from anything even remotely biblical
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It is it requires such massive anachronistic Eisegesis taking a concept that developed a thousand years after Christ and cramming it back into the scriptures that it it really is extremely difficult to even begin to seriously deal with it on an exegetical level at that point and that's why
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I hope you notice that as As we were talking You know, it would have been one thing to respond to just the surface level of Michael's questions
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But I kept trying to go to the foundational reasons why from a biblical worldview in a biblical theology the particular discussion or the particular point of discussion or argument is untenable for a person who holds to the ultimate authority of Scripture and I think that's one of the most important things that I've tried to do over the years is in Analyzing what someone is saying or looking at the argument that someone's presenting first and foremost
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I want to know what are the foundations of this argument a Lot of times when people have conversations like that They they bounce around on the surface level without ever getting down to the foundational issues
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That can get you into the biblical text on a on a solid ground hopefully in that particular conversation there was a
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Illustration of hopefully how that can be done and that I I don't know who Michael was I've not had any contact
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But I'm thankful that he took the time to call in and that we took about 24 minutes
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I think I forgot to look at before I hit the drop About 24 minutes or so to have a good conversation and given the conversation we had
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With mr. Bellisario a while back That demonstrates you can have meaningful conversations on the ground
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Subjects you don't have to have what happened with a brother Peter when he just wanted to keep
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Sort of interrupting and those things, but even that was a fairly lengthy call I mean most folks are not going to get that kind of time on Catholic answers live or something like that.
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That's for sure but that's the type of thing that we like to try to have happen here on the dividing line, so Lord willing next
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Tuesday when we have the next issue of the dividing line My voice will be back as well as my health you would pray toward that end that would be nice I have a lot of things to be accomplishing a lot of studying to be doing and you know where I do my studying is on the back of that bike and So I need to be able to get back out there
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I've got a lot of things to be reading before my duties this fall and a lot of things
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I want to be writing as well, so I've got to jump on these things So I'm not always getting to things right at the last minute that would be very very helpful as well
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So continue to pray for the ministry. We've got a very busy fall lined out already and all the way into the winter and in fact all the way into February and March of next year and so I'm looking forward to all that But it's always a whole lot easier to do that when folks are supporting us drop us a line
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Let us know you're praying for us keep us in your prayers And we will see you Tuesday on the dividing line regular time.
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See you then God bless We need
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