January 6, 2023 Show with Kyle White on “The Believer’s Union with Christ” PLUS Michael McCarthy on “The Fellowship Conference New York”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this sixth day of December.

What am I saying, sixth day of December? That's not the date. Today is a date in January.

I'm not sure how I got that sixth day of December in there, but we'll correct that later on.

But it's my honor and privilege to have for the very first—actually, he's not a very first -time guest.

I'm really fumbling things up this afternoon. I'm having a returning guest to start with, and I'm having a first -time guest join us during the second hour.

I'm excited that we have as a returning guest today Kyle White, who is pastor of Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas.

Today he is going to be addressing, during the first hour, the believer's union with Christ and the experience of that union in this life.

And we're going to be joined, during hour number two, by Michael McCarthy, pastor of Christ Fellowship of Patchogue, Long Island, New York, and he's going to be addressing the

Fellowship Conference New York, a conference coming up in February, where both

Kyle White and Mack Tomlinson and some other folks are going to be speaking.

But it's my honor and privilege, first of all, to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Kyle White.

Kyle, are you with us? Yes. Yes. Hey, Brother Chris. Yep, I'm here. Just had to unmute myself.

Okay, brother. It's great to have you here, especially to discuss such an important issue, the believer's union with Christ and the experience of that union in this life.

But before we delve into that, please let our listeners know, for the sake of those especially who are unfamiliar with you and your ministry, and if they have not heard your previous interviews on this program, tell us about Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas.

Yeah, sure. Well, our church was established in 1983, so we're into our 40th year this year, and I've been here for 23 of those years, and I've had the privilege actually of serving as a pastor, one of the elders.

At the present time, I am the only elder in the church, but we do believe that the biblical model is plurality, and we are praying that God would raise up another man or men.

We are a small church. We're on the southern outskirts of San Antonio, and we have officially 62 members in our church, and our attendance is more than that, but we don't really focus on counting the numbers.

But we do seek to serve one another and see the demonstration of Christ's love in the church, and we reach out.

We're very mission -oriented, both in supporting missionaries and in going forth ourselves in evangelistic ways, and so God has blessed us with the privilege of being able to represent

Him in our own area and other places as well. Well, praise God. If anybody wants more details on Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas, go to cbcweb .net,

cbcweb .net. And I just want to let our listeners know or remind our listeners that I am excited about a conference that's coming up in February next month, and this conference is going to actually be held, as it normally is, at the church where I was formerly a member before moving to Pennsylvania, where I live now and where I conduct this broadcast.

This is the Fellowship Conference New York, and although it's being held at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, that is not the church hosting the conference or operating it.

It is being operated by Christ Fellowship of Pacho of Long Island, New York, who are using the facilities of Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, and I hope that as many of you as possible can attend that conference.

We're going to be talking more about that during the second hour with our second guest,

Michael McCarthy, pastor of Christ Fellowship of Pacho of Long Island, who will be joining us later on.

But stay tuned for details on that conference where Kyle White and Mack Tomlinson and others will be speaking.

So this is a very important aspect of the

Christian experience, the Christian life that perhaps is not focused upon often enough, the believer's union with Christ and the experience of that union in this life.

What was it that basically compelled you to want to discuss this very important subject today?

Yeah, you know, Chris, I have personally been impacted by my own meditations on this subject over the past probably a couple of years.

I have been afflicted like a lot of Christians have with more of a performance -based relationship with God in my life.

And while there are definitely commands that we have from our

God and we're to live a life of obedience and all those things, I'm not discounting any of those things, but when the focus of life becomes that and then focusing on our failures, it's so easy to be affected in our relationship to God.

And I mean, our experiential relationship to God. And so, you know, when

I began to see in Scripture the overwhelming emphasis, especially in the

New Testament, of this concept, it's more than a concept, it's a reality, but the concept of union in Christ with Christ and Christ's union with us, of course, you know, you see that even in the incarnation of Christ.

But when I began to think more about it, I began to read some authors and listen to some well -known men speak on the subject.

It just impacted me. And it's something that I've been emphasizing to our church quite a bit.

Well, as people like you and I are Reformed Baptists, we strongly believe in the necessity of repentance to be deemed as one who is truly born from above, born of God.

Without repentance, people are to be viewed as false professors.

If they continue in a life enslaved to sin and make no visible, demonstrable effort to repent, to flee from their sin and flee to God, we are to not only view them as unbelievers, but if they are professing to be

Christians, we are not even to eat with them as far as the Scriptures are concerned.

So how is what you are talking about when you say that you have left a more performance -based mindset when it comes to the

Christian life? Now, I'm assuming that you didn't actually believe in a works righteousness gospel, which is a totally false gospel.

But tell us about the difference of what you are speaking of. Well, whenever you read the

Scriptures, the Apostle Paul, for example, in his letters, he spoke very directly and he called, for example, the

Corinthian church to repentance and essentially scolded them.

But when he began the letter, he actually began speaking to those who were in Christ.

He didn't begin by an emphasis on what they should be doing.

He began with an emphasis upon who they were. When he says the church of God, which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called, and to be is in italics, but called saints.

In other words, they were saints by the calling of God. And then you get to the end of chapter 1 of 1

Corinthians, where he says, but of him, you are in Christ Jesus.

That is, God is the one who put you there. He didn't put you there on the basis of what you did.

He didn't put you there on the basis of your repentance, on the basis of your faith. It wasn't he put you there.

It's of him. You are in Christ Jesus who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

By the way, I'm reading out of the New King James here. So when the thought, and then

Romans chapter 6, of course, is a classic passage on the union, our union with Christ, in Christ.

And it's on the basis of that union, when we understand who we are in Christ, when we understand that everlasting love of God in Christ, when we understand that we were chosen in Christ, when we understand that everything that we are in relationship to God really begins and ends with that relationship that we have in Christ.

That becomes the motivation for everything else in the

Christian life. So faith and repentance are fruits, of course, of the operation of the

Holy Spirit and regeneration. And that is,

I would even argue, an outworking of this union that we have in Christ and with Christ and an evidence.

It's like what 1 John chapter 2 and verse 5 says, but whoever keeps his word truly, the love of God is perfected in him.

By this we know that we are in him. So the foundation of my relationship to God in time and eternity is not dependent on me.

And when that truth becomes a reality, it affects you.

What do you think are some of the most significant ways that our union with Christ is manifest and what that entails that are perhaps not spoken about or preached about or taught about enough, even from the pulpits of Reformed pastors?

Most recently I've been affected by the matter of prayer.

When we are in Ephesians chapter 2, we have that expression that we are seated with him in the heavenlies.

That's kind of an odd expression. Some of these concepts of being in Christ kind of seem metaphysical to us.

It's just sort of, yeah, it's out there somewhere, but it just seems sort of nebulous.

But when we are actually conscious of the fact that we are in Christ, and so when we go to our father in prayer, we are going in the name of Jesus Christ.

And that's not just a formula. We are actually in him, seated with him, so that we have access into the holy of holies.

And when we're conscious of that, I believe that it affects us so that we don't go cowering into the presence of God.

There is that sense of boldness going before the throne of grace, not because of who we are, but because we're actually joined to the one who is our very high priest.

We're in union with him. And so it affects us in our...

At least I've experienced that myself, you know, experientially. It affects me in my praying.

I'll give you another example. Just today, there were some feelings that came over me, some sort of just like...

I wasn't feeling as spiritual or as godly -minded as I...

as I would like, you know? And then it just hit me. You're in Christ.

And it was amazing how that affected my attitude and my spirit in relationship to God, just in that moment of having that thought come to me.

And so the more that I study and think and use upon what it means to be in union with Christ, then

I'm motivated then to actually... Well, I would say it like Paul does in Romans chapter 6.

I would reckon or, you know, think of myself, reckon myself to be dead to sin, alive to God, in Christ Jesus our

Lord. That's, you know, what is that, Romans 6 and verse 11...

Verse 12... No, verse 11.

Likewise, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God. It's in Christ Jesus that that's true.

It's not because of anything in me. But because this is my...

We often use the word position when it comes to sanctification. My position.

Then the progression in my life is affected toward actually experiencing that sanctification in my life.

You know, there are other passages, too, that I think express a similar thing, like Colossians 3.

You know, if you are risen with Christ, set your minds or your affections on things above, not on things of the earth.

And the whole concept there in Colossians, that pressing of us to be and do and mortify and all the things that are to be evident in the

Christian life flows out of the reality of who we are in Christ.

Now, you made reference earlier to that glorious truth commendation in Hebrews 4 .16,

where in the King James Version it says, Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

And as the New American Standard Bible says, Therefore let's approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find peace for help at the time of our need.

As you may know, there are heretics who profess to be

Christian, especially in the Word of Faith movement, that twist that wonderful truth.

And I can even remember, it gives me chills when I think about it, but years ago,

I think it was back in the 80s, I was listening to a Christian radio station, and Kenneth Hagen, the arch -heretic of the

Word of Faith movement, who has passed on from this earth, and I sadly have little hope that he is with our

Lord for eternity. But I can remember him saying how sick and tired he was of wimpy, whiny

Christians coming to the

Lord with timidity and so forth, and he said, You stand up like a man and you boldly approach

God and demand what is rightfully yours. Now, I know that that's not what you are saying, but how is what you are saying different from that blasphemy?

No. In fact, when I hear people talk like that, it causes me to wonder if they even grasp at all what it is to be in union with Christ.

In that same passage there, Hebrews 4, back up to verse 14, seeing then that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens,

Jesus, the Son of God. This is the whole tenor of Scripture, really, is leading us to put our minds and our hearts and our affections upon that one who has done all that he has done.

And as he was doing what he did for us on this earth, there was a sense in which we were in union with him, so that his life, his death, his resurrection, as Paul talks about in a number of places, is really ours.

And it's on that basis that we come before our sympathetic high priest.

And we don't know. It's not a name -it -and -claim -it mindset at all.

That's despicable. But the whole idea, if we didn't have

Christ, if we weren't in Christ, brother, who could approach

God? Who could approach God? But we don't just approach God, we approach him as our

Father. And I know there are people who will abuse that, but oh, let's not let the abuses of heretical teachers steal away fundamental, precious, glorious truths from us, who are truly the people of God.

Well, we have to go to our first station break right now. If you have a question for Kyle White on our subject today,

The Believer's Union with Christ and the Experience of That Union in This Life, please send it to ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And since Kyle is a pastor, you may also ask a pastoral question, a question on theology, on biblical doctrine, etc.

But we hope that most of you will actually stay very close to the theme of The Believer's Union with Christ.

That's ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with Kyle White, pastor of Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas.

We are addressing the believers' union with Christ and the experience of that union in this life.

If you have any questions of your own for Pastor Kyle, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Just to remind you, Kyle and I will be joined during the second hour, God willing, by Michael McCarthy, pastor of Christ Fellowship of Patchogue, Long Island, New York, who will be hosting the

Fellowship Conference New York this coming February on Long Island.

And that will be at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick. Christ Fellowship of Patchogue is using the facilities of Grace Reformed Baptist in Merrick.

And we'll be giving you more details when Michael joins us during the second hour. We do have a question from Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

And Arnie asks, Is this union that believers have with Christ one of the reasons that we who are

Reformed believe in what has been known as the perseverance of the saints and even eternal security?

Well, absolutely. And, in fact, that is our security.

Union with Christ also is accompanied with it's not only us in Christ, but Christ in us, which

Romans chapter 8 makes so very clear. If the spirit of Christ is not in you, then you are none of his.

And that is the very power. He is the very power that not only gives us that sense that we are in union with Christ, but also enables us to grow in the grace and the knowledge of Christ and the likeness of Christ.

And so there is that both perseverance and preservation of the saints that are involved in this union.

And I would just suggest this that, you know, be observant as you read the

New Testament of how often the expression in Christ Jesus or in him is found.

It's amazing. You may have even overlooked it. You even get to the end of Romans chapter 16.

And as Paul is writing about the various believers that he knows, I think it's six or seven times in verses 3 through 16 that he follows up so -and -so with in the

Lord, in Christ. And so he's emphasizing that relationship, which is part of the fellowship or the communion that we have together.

This idea of union with Christ, and I'm actually going a little beyond the questioner's question here, but this idea of union with Christ actually is,

I believe, the fundamental truth that breaks down the walls of division, certainly between Jew and Gentile, as Paul taught in Ephesians chapter 2, but between any cultural group or sometimes we call races.

We're in Christ. There is no believer who is superior to another believer.

We are one in Christ. And so that has a huge effect upon our lives when we come to the realization of what this really means, that we are one in Christ and we're united with Christ and united in Christ.

It affects not only our personal lives but our relational lives, particularly on the church. Now perhaps you could clarify about what you meant by there is no one who, in the body of Christ, is superior to another

Christian. There are certainly those that are making an infinitely greater impact for the gospel than others.

There are people who are living out a more sanctified life in obedience to Christ.

There are people who are more demonstrable and vividly clear in possessing the fruits of the

Spirit and so on and so on. How is what you just said, that very powerful and important declaration, how is that different from what

I was just listing? Yeah. And I would say this, that it's like the

Apostle Paul, this was his attitude in 1

Corinthians 15, where he says, I'm the least of the apostles who are not worthy to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God, but by the grace of God I am what

I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain, but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not

I, but the grace of God which was in me. Now, while that's not a direct statement of union with Christ, I believe it flows out of that thought.

Paul understood that he was who he was, not because of who he was, but because of who he was in Christ and the grace of God that was at work in him.

I'll just give you a practical example. When I go to the prison, and I'm standing before 50 some odd men every week, and I'm looking at these men,

I'm not looking down at these men as if I'm superior to these men.

Many of them aren't even born again, some of them are, but am I better than them? Well, in the flesh,

I'd have to say, no, before God, no. I am what

I am by the grace of God, and if any of those men are in Christ, though they are incarcerated, they have the same relationship to God that I do.

They have the same access to our Father as I do. I don't believe that God looks upon us and distinguishes us from one another based upon our,

I would say, our value, based upon our performance. Now, that's not to say that there aren't those who are more greatly used instruments.

I mean, who wouldn't say that Paul was more greatly used than others that were living in his day or any who have lived since?

Surely, we don't despise the instruments, but we don't exalt the instruments.

We exalt the Christ, whose instruments we are. Amen. We have an anonymous listener who asks,

I am going through some very difficult and frightening trials in my life, but one thing that comforts me, among other things in the

Bible, is a quote, and I'm not sure of who the author of the quote is, but I believe it rings very true.

God plus one equals a majority. Is what you are talking about reflective in that quote that I love so much?

God plus one? Equals a majority. I've heard that phrase also, and I also do not know what the origins of that quote are, but from what

I have taken from that quote is, no matter what we're facing in this world, no matter how many people are attacking us, either verbally or physically, if they are enemies of Christ and we are

Christians, it doesn't matter what people may do and how many people may do evil against us.

Right. God plus us, or God plus me, or God plus one equals a majority.

I believe that's what the quote is referring to. I suppose you could say that.

I would say that God is a majority. He doesn't need me. Here's what

I would say to turn it positive. I would say everything that I am that's of value is because of who

I am in Christ. I would say that I am no more united with Christ if I fall, or if I have, let's say, a moral fall, or if I am soaring high in my experience.

I am no more united with Christ based upon me. I don't know if that...

That doesn't sound like that's the point that that statement is making, but I believe it is important for the security of our own souls, for the rest, for the peace of our own soul.

When Hebrews 4 says labor, I'm quoting, I think that's the

King James, but labor to enter into that rest. I believe that rest is

Jesus Christ. So our responsibility... Let me say it this way, that the experience of that union that we have in Christ fluctuates.

Okay? But the fact of that union with Christ does not fluctuate.

So there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

That's that union language there. Now those who are in Christ Jesus are known by their walk, by their fruit.

That's another point that fruit, if you're in union with Jesus Christ, like Paul states in the

Romans chapter 7, if you're married to Christ, there's going to be fruit. And in Philippians chapter 1 and verse 11, flipping there right quickly,

Philippians 1 and verse 11, being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ to the glory and praise of God.

So our union with Christ brings forth fruit in our lives. And so maybe just reflecting back upon that comment,

I would say, maybe I'll say it this way, the most important relationship that you have in this world is your relationship with God and Jesus Christ.

And from that relationship, I mean, if God is for you, who can be against you?

Yeah, that's the actual biblical, direct from the God -breathed word statement.

Well, thank you, Anonymous. By the way, if you are a first -time questioner, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible. So if you could, email me back if that is the case, with your full name, obviously that won't be disclosed on the air since you're anonymous, and your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

can ship out to you a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

NASB, and compliments of cvbbs .com will be shipping it out to you at no expense to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Well, I'd like you now, before we close out this first hour of the program, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today when it comes to the believer's union with Christ and the experience of that union in this life.

Yeah. There's a hymn that has this line in it,

Loved with everlasting love, Led by grace, That love to know,

Spirit, breathing from above, Thou hast taught me, It is so.

And I would just encourage those who are truly believers,

I would encourage you to ask, pray, ask the Father to give you the best of gifts, which is the ever -present ministry of the

Holy Spirit in you to bring to life the reality of your union with His Son and in His Son, and all the benefits that come to you because of that union.

And then I would encourage you to live your life in that daily communion and fellowship with God in Christ.

J .C. Ryle said this, We must seek to know something of heartfelt, experimental communion with Him.

Never, never let us forget that union is one thing and communion another.

Thousands, I fear, who know what union with Christ is know nothing of communion.

And I'm convinced that that communion is going to impact us in very practical ways.

And for those who may not be, believers, I would just encourage you to cry out to God in repentance.

If you feel the burden of the guilt of your sin that's separating you from the living God, cry out to Him in repentance and see

Jesus Christ as the Spirit opens your eyes, look to Him and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

And you will, you will know that union with Christ and you will begin to experience that communion now and forever.

Amen. Well, folks, if you still have questions on this subject, feel free to continue to email them in during the second hour when

Michael McCarthy will be joining Kyle and myself. So we're not cutting off your ability to ask questions on the

Believer's Union with Christ. You can ask anything in regard to that, in regard to a pastoral nature, in regard to biblical doctrine, etc.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. So, as I said, we're going to be joined shortly by Michael McCarthy of Christ Fellowship Church of Patro, Long Island, New York.

He's going to be introducing to you the Fellowship Conference New York, where Kyle White and others are speaking.

And this is the longer -than -normal break, folks, so please be patient with us. Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information provided by as many of our advertisers as you possibly can so that you can further ensure that you will successfully put yourself in contact with their advertisers.

And we hope that that will include buying their products on occasion, using their services, visiting their churches.

But when you cannot do any of those things, there's one thing that you definitely can do. If you really love this show and you're grateful that there are people who support this show with their finances and enable the show to exist, then please thank them.

Thank our advertisers. We absolutely, positively need our advertisers to exist. So if you're really thankful that somebody is keeping this show on the air through their financial support, thank our advertisers.

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I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia, again for the

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino and thanks for listening. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Before I return to our program, where we have both Kyle White, Pastor of Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas, with us, and now joining us,

Pastor Michael McCarthy of Christ Fellowship of Patchogue, Long Island, New York. Before we get involved in that discussion again, we have some very important announcements to make.

First of all, if you love this show, folks, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,

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Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, like Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas, or Christ Fellowship of Patchogue, Long Island, New York, no matter where on the planet

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Ironsharpensironradio audience in all parts of the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes, from where these listeners live.

And that may be you, too, if you are homeless spiritually, you need a good church home, or you know folks, you have loved ones that need a good church home.

Well, send me an email to chrisarnsironradio .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in questions to Kyle White of Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas, and also

Michael McCarthy of Christ Fellowship of Patchogue, Long Island, New York. That's chrisarnsironradio .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Well, I would like to now welcome to the discussion

Michael McCarthy, pastor of Christ Fellowship of Patchogue, Long Island. Greetings, brother. Thank you for having me,

Chris. Oh, the honor and privilege is mine, brother, and I'm so delighted that you are here with us for the first time.

Before we get into a summary of your personal salvation testimony, which is a tradition we have whenever we have a first -time guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, before we do that, why don't you let our listeners know something about Christ Fellowship of Patchogue, Long Island.

So, Christ Fellowship is a church, as you have already said, in Patchogue, New York.

It's on the eastern end of Long Island. We had, really, the church was the church became

Christ Fellowship at around, I would say, spring of 2018. It was a group of believers that were already friends, but we were part of different local churches, and we were meeting regularly

Friday nights at one of the brothers' houses to pray. And we felt that it came to a point where God was calling us to continue meeting together in a more formal manner, and we decided to plant what is now

Christ Fellowship myself and Anthony Quagliata. We're pastoring together for the past five years.

He recently had moved down to North Carolina to pastor a work down there, too. So, at the moment,

I'm pastoring by myself. We are a church that loves the gospel, centered on the gospel.

We have an evangelistic zeal to us. We recognize that the only way the church grows and Christ's kingdom has expanded is through the people going into the world and preaching the gospel.

We are a smaller church, so things are very intimate. And as for right now,

I guess what I'm learning, and I guess what our church is learning as well, is loving the simplicity of the local church.

So, that's really a flavor of what Christ Fellowship is. We meet together weekly.

We sing together. We pray together. We eat together and enjoy the Lord's Supper. Amen.

And what would be your theological positions that you stand most firmly upon?

Yeah, so we are not affiliated with a denomination, for those that might wonder, but we are

Calvinistic in our soteriology. And I guess, to pull the cat out of the bag,

I am a continuationist in what I believe how the gifts function in the church age now, but obviously done in a manner that is obedient to Paul's commands in 1

Corinthians. So, that is really the main flavor of our church. Though, I know that some, when they hear the word continuationist, they have a certain idea.

We don't have manifestations of the gifts, as you might find in a Pentecostal church.

I have yet to experience them, though we long for that. What we do treasure, though, is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Amen. And I understand that right now your website is really your

Facebook page. Am I correct? You can also find us on Christfellowshipli .com.

Oh, okay. I was unaware of that. Yes, yeah. Christfellowshipli .com.

Great. Now, tell us about Fellowship Conference New York. So, back in 2018, after our church had planted, we had gotten contact with Don Curran, and we reached out to him, and we had asked him if, excuse me, this was 2019.

This was the wintertime of 2019. We reached out to Don, and we asked him and Cindy, who are such wonderful brothers and brother and sister.

They came down, and we had a small conference, and we were aiming to mimic what

Anthony Quagliata had experienced at the Fellowship Conference in Benton.

So then, the following year, we ended up getting in touch with Mac Tomlinson. We got in touch with Tim Conway, and once again with Don Curran, and we decided to actually make it an actual

Fellowship Conference, and the first Fellowship Conference was in February of 2020, and that was just before the mayhem ensued, especially here in the

East Coast with the lockdowns. It was a wonderful time. It's my only experience at a

Fellowship Conference. It's all that I know, and I think the name itself describes what the experience is like.

It's centered on fellowship, and I'll get into it a little bit more if you would like me to.

That is the flavor of this conference. Many conferences are about a particular set of doctrines, but this conference is about meeting other believers, fellowshipping with them, enjoying the

Word of God together, and eating together. Yes, I understand from having been a visitor, an attender, or attendee of at least one of your conferences in the past, that there is no pre -scheduled specific topic for any of the speakers.

Yes. Basically, you're leaving it up to each speaker to teach and preach on whatever is burdening their heart at that time the most, what they believe they are being called of God to speak on during that season in their ministry.

So there's no theme of the conference, no theme of any individual message.

Right? Yes, you're exactly right. There is no theme, so you're not going to hear all the speakers at the conference over the three days speak on Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

I had one brother reach out to me and ask me what the topics of the conference were, and I told him evangelism,

I told him prayer, devotion to Christ, and I said, I know I probably didn't help you.

That was a very vague answer, but those are some of the topics.

Like, for example, the last conference we had, you had ranging topics from revival when

Matt preached out of Psalm 83. You had Tim Conway preaching on the last day and judgment day when the believer will be judged according to their works.

And then we also had Tim, excuse me, Don Curran preached on distractions, and he talked about social media and phones, so it was many different topics, but I think somehow, some way, by the

Spirit, they all had a unified message, and that was we wanted to be better disciples of Jesus Christ.

Well, tell us about your speakers this year. So the speakers this year are

Mac Tomlinson, Michael Durham, and Kyle White, who's on the show. This isn't the first time

I've actually met Kyle. Hey, Michael. Nice to meet you, Kyle. And I have yet to meet

Michael, too, but over the past few years, I've grown a very good relationship with Mac, and I'm very thankful for him, and he's been a big influence on my life, so I entrust these brothers wholeheartedly to preach the

Word of God faithfully and to edify the Church. Well, as I've already let our listeners know,

Kyle White, who's been on with us for the first hour, is pastor of Community Baptist Church of Elmendorf, Texas, and my dear friend for many years,

Mac Tomlinson is a pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and he's also an author.

Tell us about, with more details, the other speakers. So Michael Durham, I believe, is also a part of Mac Tomlinson's church as well and functions as an evangelist at this point.

My familiarity with Kyle and with Michael is online. I've been very blessed by their teachings to the

I'll Be Honest ministry, and that is really, I would say, how this conference came to be.

Both myself and Anthony Quagliata at the time were greatly influenced by many of the preachers and teachers that are found on that page through James Jennings' ministry, which

I'm very thankful for. So, yes. You know, if I can butt in here for a minute,

Chris, and just say that I know both of the brothers, the other brothers, and the one thing I will say about them is perhaps

I'm most impressed with the spirit of those men. I mean, they love

Christ and they love people and they love the truth. And anyone who comes and engages with them will definitely be blessed for the effort they put forth, for sure.

Praise God. If I could add one thing. Sure. I would say that what marks these men is reality.

It's one thing for a man to be able to parrot a bunch of different doctrines that a particular group of people love, but there's reality.

Though I have not met Michael and Kyle yet, I know the flavor. I know the spirit of these men.

They are men that you could say they have been with Christ. And that's been my experience so far.

And I know that Michael Durham also heads a parachurch ministry called Real Truth Matters.

And the website to that is realtruthmatters .com. Mack Tomlinson, as I've already mentioned, has been a dear friend of mine for many years.

He's been a guest in this program a number of times. He's also, he and Providence Chapel have been extremely generous financially to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and have sent in very generous financial gifts, have advertised with us.

And I thank God that during the last weeks of my oldest brother,

John's life, who providentially lived near Denton, Texas, he had the privilege of having visitations by Mack Tomlinson in the hospital.

And my brother thanks be to God and his grace and mercy. I believe my brother

John made a very credible profession of faith in Christ before he departed this earth.

And I thank God that Mack was the human instrument that God used to introduce in a more intimate and face -to -face manner the gospel.

And I believe that by God's mercy it penetrated into the heart and mind of my brother and that he did have his heart of stone removed and received the heart of flesh from our

Lord. And it is now in eternity with Christ. I'm very confident of that.

Well, how do our listeners register for this? Or how do they know about more details?

In fact, tell us the dates. I don't think we mentioned that. So the dates for the conference are

February 23rd to 25th. For those that are part of the public school system or familiar with the calendar, that's at the back end of winter break, which is why

Grace Reformed Baptist Church has been so kind to us to allow us to use their building during that time because they have a building they have at school on that premises as well.

The conference is from Thursday to Saturday, so the first session is 630 on Thursday evening.

We'll have some refreshments for people as they come to the conference. You can register at the conference as well in addition to registering online.

And if you just search on Google, I'll Be Honest, or I'll Be Honest Fellowship Conference New York, you search Fellowship Conference New York on Google, you can find the conference there.

The date will be listed right on the title of the link, and the page is rather simple to maneuver your way through.

So that's where you can register. Okay, well, let me ask you a question about the challenges of being involved in a church plant and also pastoring a congregation that, as you said, is numerically small.

There are those that actually prefer a smaller congregation because they prefer the intimacy, they prefer the family -like atmosphere.

Everybody knows each other very well. They are frequently in each other's homes.

They're sharing more meals with people more frequently. And there is an atmosphere about that that is positive.

On the other hand, there are people, and I know this from people that I have seen visiting churches and who have followed up with me with their comments.

There are many people, in fact, the most typical thing I hear from people when they are discouraged after visiting a church that they find is small numerically is, oh, there's not enough programs for the kids.

That's really the main complaint that people that I know, or at least know of, who visit churches and are disappointed with the small size, follow up behind that.

And this actually is more of a reason that disturbs me to a pretty large degree, is when people are disappointed because, oh, they don't have a real spectacular music program.

These people are looking for Broadway -style or Broadway -level worship music, sometimes with an orchestra and all kinds of special music and all that.

But tell us if you have confronted those issues or others and how you react and respond to them.

And please, Pastor Kyle, chime in if you desire to with any questions or follow -up answers that you care to.

Yeah, many of the convictions that I've come to regarding the local church have really been learned by experience and suffering, entering ministry with unbiblical expectations for what the church should be.

I'm not going to lie. I think there was a portion of these last five years where I found myself embarrassed and ashamed of the simplicity of the local church.

And over time, this is something that I've learned. And I think here in America, we have false expectations of what a church looks like, what a church should be doing.

We go back to Acts chapter 2 and you see the things that the early church committed themselves to is the apostles' teaching, to prayer, breaking of bread, and fellowship.

That's what characterized the early church. It was simplistic. And I've grown over time to love it.

And by God's grace, He saved me from going down a road that not only would have been destructive for my own soul, but also would have been destructive for all those around me, placing burdens on church members that I shouldn't or expecting certain things.

I was talking to one brother of our church recently, and I think I've always thought church growth to be mainly numerically.

But what I've learned over the past two years, especially, is that church growth, biblically speaking, looks a lot more like growing in love.

And thankfully, I've got to experience it as a church over the past few years.

So, Kyle, I don't know if there's anything you want to add. Yeah. I was just wondering, Michael, what is your background? I mean, when did you come to know the

Lord? I don't think you gave your testimony yet. Oh, yeah, that's right. In fact, I wanted you to do that now. I completely forgot about that.

Thank you, Kyle, for reminding me about my own tradition here. Maybe lead from your testimony into just where you got to where you are.

Yes, of course. In fact, include with that the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised and what kind of providential circumstances our

Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So, thankfully, as a young boy,

I grew up surrounded by biblical teaching. Whether all of it was false or not, regardless,

I was surrounded by Bible. Chris, I know that you're very familiar with the Pentecostal landscape back in the 80s.

Oh, yeah. Based on what Anthony has told me. Thank you for aging me.

Well, I apologize about that. So, I grew up in a

Pentecostal church in the late 90s. And, by God's grace, that's all

I ever knew. And there were many extremes. There were many abuses. But the one thing I could say is that I knew of Jesus.

As I look to my experience as a young boy, and even as an adolescent, it was as if the

Holy Spirit was sort of surrounding my heart with brush. So, as I grew older,

I would say at around 19, I went off to college. I went off to SUNY Cortland.

I went to go play football there. I was going to go pursue a degree in physical education.

And it was during that time where the faith of my family became my own.

I can't tell you of a specific point where the lights turned on, but I can tell you a period of time where the

Bible seemed appealing to me. And I may not have understood what was happening or what

I was reading, but I just wanted to keep reading. And then as I came home that summer going into my sophomore year, that's when

I would say I experienced what Paul speaks of in Romans chapter 5, where the love of God was poured out in my heart by the

Spirit. And it was no longer me just knowing of... It wasn't just me knowing of Jesus.

I knew Him. He was my Savior. He was my Lord. And it wasn't like I learned anything new, but it was me actually understanding the things

I have always known. And like I had said earlier, by God's grace, He sort of lit a flame, the brush surrounding my heart, which was biblical truth.

And it became the most appealing thing to me ever since then. So the

Lord saved me at 19. And then once I had gone back to school, I couldn't help but tell others about Jesus too, whether it was people on my team or whether it was just others on campus.

And I immediately had a desire to actually teach others. So there was a group of us that I realized, wow,

I'm not the only Christian on campus. And there was others there. And we actually created a chapter of what is called the

FCA, Fellowship of Christian Athletes. And there was also another campus ministry called

Campus Crusade, which would become CRU. And what we realized is all the men were joining my studies and all the women were going to Campus Crusade.

And so what we decided to do was actually just merge the two. And I did not go to seminary.

Like I said before, I have a bachelor's degree in physical education and I have a master's in liberal arts.

So I don't have any formal theological training. But when I do speak to others,

I do say that my experience at Cortland as a college student,

I was there for five years by God's grace. The Lord tore up my knees. He crushed the idol of football that I had.

And in God's providence, I was able to stay an extra year and actually devote all of my time to campus ministry.

And that really was, I would say, like my seminary. I was learning how to use the Bible to counsel others.

We were going out on the campus and telling others about Jesus, though ever how uncomfortable it may have felt.

And there, that's where I actually was able to actually make disciples. And I was teaching weekly, going through the book of Galatians, going through the book of Genesis.

And although I did not say everything correctly and I had theological imbalances, it was invaluable to me.

I thought I was going there to play football, but rather I came to know Jesus by going upstate to a party school.

So that's my experience, at least there. And then shortly after, I came back home.

I was longing for Christian friends. Growing up in a... Once I had left the smaller

Pentecostal church, I went to a mega church here on Long Island. And I could not...

I came to know the doctrines of grace in the midst of my time at Cortland and that sort of made me an oddball in the large

Pentecostal church I was in. I was the black sheep. No one answered my theological questions that I had.

And I was very prideful and zealous, as many cage states Calvinists are. And I try to...

You know, I found every reason to get out. But thankfully, you know,

I was a bit afraid because that's all I knew. I didn't know of any other churches that held the same convictions as me at the time.

And thankfully, I got to connect with some other brothers, Anthony Quagliata, especially.

I can't tell you the great influence he's had on my life and the privilege I had to pastor with him. And yeah, so he encouraged me to leave the church.

I went to another church and then eventually, I would probably say two to three years later is when Christ Fellowship was planted.

And that's really how I came to be a pastor now. I pastored prior to being formally ordained.

The church recognized me as such and then Mac and a few other brothers got involved in my ordination maybe two years later.

Now, how did you specifically come to discover the doctrines of sovereign grace and embrace them?

So, I was confronted by a few Jehovah's Witnesses when I was maybe six months after being saved.

And I read the book of Romans through one time and I thought I knew my Bible. And they fooled me.

They schooled me one day. I went to my friend's door where the

Jehovah's Witnesses were and they schooled me. I couldn't articulate the doctrine of the Trinity. And that led me, as for most, to Dr.

James White who, a man that I have not known personally, has had such a huge impact on my life.

And yeah, so I started listening to the dividing line. I started consuming everything he had taught on the doctrine of the

Trinity. And as he always would say, you know, Calvinistic soteriology is

Trinitarian soteriology. And before I knew it, I was on my way home from school one day and I was listening through an exposition that he was giving through John chapter 6.

And then ever since then, I couldn't run from it. So, it wasn't a big struggle for me. It was actually pretty natural as I came to understand

God as Trinity and how he saves. Amen. Amen. Well, just to give a praise report that you may not be aware of,

Dr. White dedicated his book, The Forgotten Trinity, to me. And that's something that has blessed me for years.

That was approximately 1998, I think, that book came out. And I can still remember, not long after the death of my father, when

I was being consoled and comforted by James, he said, well, and this is back in the day when we used fax machines, he said, well, keep your eye on your fax machine right now because I'm faxing you something.

And he faxed me what would be the dedication page to The Forgotten Trinity.

So, that was an added source of comfort. We're going to go to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If anybody has a question for Michael McCarthy or Kyle White or both of them,

I would urge you to send it in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state and your country of residence and only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private one.

And I would like to remind my guests to please mute yourself during the station break because everyone listening will hear every noise you make.

So, don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Attoye in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Welcome back and Pastor Michael McCarthy we have a question for you.

This is from C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York and I hope that C .J. attends your conference.

Lindenhurst is only about 25 minutes or so from Merrick so it's not that far of a trip to where the conference will be.

But C .J. asks how do you respond to people who may say that the reason that your church is numerically small is that the congregation and perhaps even the leadership are lacking in doing something.

Perhaps it's evangelism or perhaps they are not having a stronger impact and outreach to the local community.

And there may be even some people in the congregation itself who start to have guilt trips over this.

Like I had said earlier I think a lot of the feelings of failure for a pastor and a lot of feelings of failure amongst a congregation has a lot to do with what they are expecting in a local church.

Going back to what I had said before what it seems like in the New Testament the local church is the meeting when the church meets together it is not an event rather it's the meeting of a faith family.

And really what it comes down to at least for myself and the other brothers and sisters in our church is we have to judge ourselves according to what

Scripture commands of us. You know the immediate thing is for us to think well there must be something about us and maybe that is the case for some people.

I've had the experience of some people running away from intimacy that characterizes a small local church.

Discipleship is very hands on it's life on life and some people are very uncomfortable with that. Sometimes it has to do with us and I totally understand that and I have to have some tougher skin and not be offended by that.

I guess the question comes down to well are we doing the things that Jesus commands of us? And it's really that if God chooses for us to be a smaller fellowship then my job as a pastor is to simply be faithful and that's what

I'll be judged on Judgment Day is according to my faithfulness not numbers. Yes, amen. In fact I've heard very wisely put that people should be more concerned with the spiritual growth of individuals in a congregation rather than the numerical growth.

Yes. And Pastor Carl White do you have anything to follow up with on that? Yeah, I'm just kind of thinking over the course of my years

I've been here 23 years I was in a church before this but this one for 14 years which was a very small congregation this one's not a big one but I've seen fluctuation over the years and there is a temptation to try to accommodate in a number of different ways but we have to fight that we have to fight that and you know one of the things that sometimes people will say is they feel disconnected and so they want to go to a church where they feel connected and then other people want to go to a church where they are not noticed one thing

I will say about a small church is that every hiccup is felt and in a larger church you can have some of the same things happen in a larger church and no one even notices it but in a smaller church everything is noticed, everything is felt that's not always a bad thing but sometimes it is a bad thing sometimes in smaller churches we need to learn to let some things go and not so that everything is not a big deal and so that's something that we can learn in smaller churches that I think may help us in our growth because it projects a spirit to those coming in that we're not going to jump all over every little difference or every little problem that we may see we're going to we're going to be tolerant as much as we can be biblically

Yes, I can recall vividly having a conversation with an acquaintance of mine from New York City who was a member of a very large charismatic church and I asked her, so tell me about your elders there do you think that they are really caring shepherds and are they theologically sound and she said, well

I've never met any of them so there you have the dangers of some large churches

I have to remind myself because I have a tendency to be overly critical about very large churches but I have to remind myself there are churches like Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California where John MacArthur is the pastor which is a very large church and also even

Metropolitan Tabernacle in the 19th century which was pastored by Charles Adams Spurgeon so we can't automatically dismiss a large church either which some reformed people have a tendency to do by the way it reminded me when

I just thought of Charles Adams Spurgeon that you are in good company Pastor Mike in that you were speaking earlier about having no formal education well that should be no reason for anybody to take you for granted or dismiss you because Charles Adams Spurgeon didn't have any formal education either so that does not automatically mean in some way that a pastor is inferior oh my goodness thank you for that one

Chris but perhaps since we are already reaching the end mark of our time together

I'll let first you, Pastor Mike McCarthy have several minutes of uninterrupted time to give to our listeners what you most want etched in their hearts and minds after we go off the program today

I guess what I would like to just what I would like to have everyone like you had said etched in their hearts and minds is to go be a faithful churchman go love the brethren like take risks in loving them it's one thing to attend a meeting weekly it's one thing to sit in a seat it's one thing to listen to a sermon but it's a whole other thing to truly love as Jesus commands us to love one another as I've been learning myself in pastoral ministry is you don't just want to see faces you want to know people you want to know about them you want to find ways that you can better serve them and especially when the church meets

I don't know how everyone else's meetings might look but come to a meeting not simply to be a consumer but be a contributor come with something that you can bring to the table whether that's knowing that you have to go to a particular brother and sister to pray for them whether that's a word of encouragement whether that's you sharing what the

Lord's been teaching you in your own private devotion find ways to serve the church and not just be merely a consumer

Amen, in fact that gives people something to think about when they are looking for a church to join if they believe they have abundance in gifts of any kind that are gifts needed by a congregation they might want to consider should

I join a large church just because I might receive a lot more accolades for what I am doing or should

I join a congregation that needs me and my gifts more so that's something for them to consider and Kyle White if you want to conclude with any final words

Amen, well I really appreciated what you said Michael I agree with you wholeheartedly

I would encourage any brothers and sisters in Christ that are listening to really take seriously cultivating before any other relationship your relationship with God in Christ and press in to your relationship with them so that everything in your life flows out of that of that sense of being in Christ everything about you and then when you do go to the gathering of the saints go to the gathering with the mindset that you are gathering with others who are also in Christ that ought to stir you, that ought to affect you so that you're not when you see that other person you're not simply seeing a face and you're not seeing the problems, you're not seeing the things you disagree with, you're seeing a brother or sister in Christ you're in communion together in this union you have with Christ and that really ought to impact all of us in our local churches especially but even in our you know as I'm looking at you guys engaging with you guys brothers in Christ, we are that before we are anything else and so I guess that's what

I would leave with Amen, well I want to make sure our listeners have both of your websites, first of all

Michael McCarthy who is pastor of Christ Fellowship in Patchogue, Long Island, New York that website is

Christfellowshipli for Long Island dot com Christfellowshipli dot com and the website for Community Baptist Church there in Texas in Elmendorf, Texas that website is cbcweb .net

cbcweb .net and for one final time Pastor McCarthy, let our listeners know all the details they need about the

Fellowship Conference in New York So once again the Fellowship Conference is

February 23rd to 25th, it is going to be hosted at Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Merritt Go online register, go on Google type in I'll Be Honest Fellowship Conference New York it'll be the first link that pops up go on to the register page, there are different registration fees for those that are for those that are singles, single individuals show up if it's a single admission $40, couples $60 and a family with children over 5 years old that's $80, food is included, especially the day that we will be having a lunch together and that is going to be on that Friday afternoon all food will be included, we want to encourage everybody to come and meet other believers, establish friendships with others that you haven't known and enjoy

Christ together. Amen and I want to let our listeners know the good news since we've been mentioning Mack Tomlinson one of the speakers at this conference he is going to be my guest

Monday and Tuesday of next week and he is going to be discussing the temptation of Christ in the wilderness both days he believes he has such an abundance of information on that issue that our listeners should know and hear, so he is going to be doing a two part discussion on that very important subject.

I want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write I want to thank both of my guests today

Pastor Kyle White and Pastor Michael McCarthy for taking time out of their busy schedules to be my guests

I hope you all have a blessed and safe and joyful and Christ honoring weekend and Lord's Day and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater