Raising Up Elders

All right, we're going to be continuing our study on the church and today we're going to be talking about the topic of raising up elders and I mean, this is obviously a topic that is

Very important, you know raising up elders within a body is really the most natural way of reading the

New Testament But it does seem that many churches struggle to do this or are not actively taking

Measures to do this. Well, so it's something that we want to talk about today and Talk about this as a goal particularly for our church, so the scripture that we'll read at the beginning is 2nd

Timothy 2 1 and That'll give us some insight into the nature of this topic

But as you as you can see you have a handout has a bunch of verses on there we're going to try to talk through a

Lot of different passages of scripture that are related to this topic of raising up elders in general

So we'll start with 2nd Timothy 2 1 which says this You then my child be strengthened by the grace that's in Christ Jesus and what you've heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also, so When you think about the situation as it relates to churches in general

It's sadly it sadly is pretty rare that churches raise up elders from within the church and there's many things that I think are

Contributing to this reality, but in general when a church thinks about hiring a pastor per se

The most natural way that they think about accomplishing that task is going to be to look to the outside Because in many ways when they're looking at their body

They're not finding individuals who who they believe are qualified to be raised up as elders

And you know, there's there's a lot of reasons that this could be happening I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of reasons why this could be the case some of which could be the fact that you have

Very few people who are aspiring to the office of an elder. I think in many churches there there is a

Perspective of the call to ministry that is Very mystical almost so many people they believe that in order to be qualified or called to the ministry

They're they're looking to some kind of subjective inner prompting of the

Holy Spirit That is going to tell them with decisive certainty and clarity that God has appointed them to be elders, right?

And so they they're looking for some kind of supernatural check that's operating independently of any of the normal checks that the

Bible gives namely the qualifications and the testimony of the elders and Witnessed encouragement of other people.

But as I said, I mean, I think many people are looking to some kind of supernatural Confirmation that comes in the forms of some sort of quasi relative quasi revelatory command like within them

As I pursued Vocational formal ministry over the years many many pastors will ask me about my call to the ministry

You know, when were you called to the ministry and they're pointing to this subjective inner Testimony of the

Holy Spirit that is supposed to have told me that God demands that I be a pastor and and do nothing else with my life and and then it's also kind of a promise that God will open up a door someday and You know so I think that there's some problems and conceiving of a call to ministry and that kind of way and that could discourage people from considering themself as Being potential for elders in that way

You know, certainly we're living in a time where churches are not investing in people and Giving them opportunities

To test them to see if they're able and capable of being elders like they should so certainly there's a substantial amount of that That's happening

You know as Matthew 937 says the harvest indeed is plentiful, but the laborers are few so That's I mean, that's the situation in general

There's many churches that are not training people as they should and then there's often, you know

When you do train people now, I've been a part of churches that are making efforts to train people people often resist the idea of being

Trained to consider the office of elder with almost everything that they have They'd rather spend their time and their efforts doing other things.

And so there's certainly No matter how you cut it When you look around you'll realize that most churches seem to have the impulse to hire from without instead of to hire from within and as I said, there's a variety of reasons why that's the case and That obviously, you know as you look through the

Bible that really isn't the ideal that's presented for the most part So that's the situation

The goal, you know, the goal of every church should be to have multiple elders Church is not designed to be just one man who was functioning as a dictator over the body

Certainly, I mean there's many situations where that may be all that there is You know when Paul when

Paul was going on his missionary journey He goes into the synagogues as a lone apostle like slash elder, right?

He basically goes into the synagogue. He preaches Christ makes half the people mad at him then the other happy they come and you know join and form a church and certainly like there's a time when you're planting a

New church where you're telling new soil you're telling new ground where you're the only guy who's the elder at first But that's not the goal

The goal over and over again as you read the Bible is to have multiple elders who serve as a wider base of counsel

For decision -making within a body who have different gifts talents strengths abilities in general

But all who meet the qualifications listed in the Bible. So here's a few verses that Describe that and as you read these you should

I put in bold elders and you should look at the bold font there And that'll tell you what we're talking about But acts 14 23 when they had appointed elders for them in every church with prayer and fasting they committed them to the

Lord in Whom they had believed First Timothy 5 17 let the elders who rule well It doesn't say let the elder rules

Well, the ideal is elders that the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor Especially those who labor in preaching and teaching

Titus 1 5 This is why I left you in Crete so you may put what remained into order and appoint elders in every town as I directed you

James 5 14 gives us a Prescription to follow when members are sick and need prayer

James 5 14 if any among you sick let him call for the elders of the church Let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the

Lord and then first Peter 5 1 so I exhort the elders Among you as a fellow elder and a witness of the suffering of Christ as well as a partaker of a glory

That's be to be revealed. So there's gonna be an exhortation after that But the point that we're making here is just to say the goal of every church obviously should be multiple elders

But I mean the goal in having multiple elders is not to have every person in your church be an elder, right?

So the Bible says that few should become teachers because they'll be judged with greater stick strictness I mean the goal is not to have

Everyone be an elder and in fact, I mean God has not gifted everyone In a church body to be an elder if everyone's an elder, right?

If everyone's a leader where the followers right the leaders have no one to lead Followers have no one to follow right? So the goal is not like the goal is not to have everyone be an elder

But then you know if you think about the nature of what the goal is You should have enough elders to have a wide base of counsel who are capable of taking care of the needs of the body

That's what you're thinking about when you're thinking about church elders And then you're you're also thinking about having enough elders beyond just taking care of the needs of the body

So that you can plant other churches So the goal of a New Testament Church is not just to grow

Indefinitely large and get bigger and bigger and bigger so that you have to have multiple services and multiple campuses where you're streaming

You know the teaching of one guy over multiple different places all over the city

Because you're building a kingdom and an empire founded on one personality type That's obviously not the goal

And you know when that guy goes down the whole ship goes down and we've seen that happen over and over and over again

Goals have enough elders to take care of the body and then a few more so that you can plant other Bodies that's ultimately the goal when you think about it, but the goal is simply for the purpose here today is to have

More than one for sure right to have multiple elders and The the goal of every church should be to put some thought into how are we going to raise up more elders?

Does that make sense? Now there's some problems here, so I mean

I've talked about the situation goal Well I've skipped number three the normal means right the normal means

Normal means of doing this would be as I said to train up people within the body that should be the normal means of doing this

Second Timothy 2 1 says you then my child be strengthened in the grace that's in Christ Jesus And what you've heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trust a faithful man who will be able to teach

Others also, I mean so obviously the normal means of getting new elders is to raise them up within your own congregation

That's the goal that should be the goal of a church. That's what that should be primarily what the church is

Trying to do And so I yeah Does anyone have some thoughts on why that would be ideal?

They already know the people right good simply No flock, so they already know the people the people already know him them right go

It's a good. Yeah, it's a good sign that church leadership is functioning. Well in general that they're raising new people up.

It's self -replicating right Yep, so And this is yeah,

I mean it's Hebrews makes a similar point at that at that point like where The author of Hebrews is saying many of you right now should become teachers right, but we're still having to teach the elementary principles of faith so Certainly the point of children is to grow up and one of the ways that it's not that everyone when you know all

The congregation grows up. They're all going to be teachers, but certainly some should be growing up and taking on more formal responsibility

Responsibility of teachers, so this is the normal means this is what Bible recommends is something that every church should be aspiring to There's a variety of reasons why it might not be happening.

There's no we're just one reason why It's hard to do right so could be that you know churches on mass are neglecting this responsibility

I'd say there's some of that that's happening It could be that you're living in a very worldly time where people don't have very many like spiritual aspirations, right?

So there could be some of that it could be that you know churches are not teaching on sanctification

Like they should and church is not growing in holiness like they should so you look around you see hey

We don't we don't have very many people who are very mature So there's some of that But yeah, there could be any number of means

I think there's actually an expectation that the churches have now to hire from without That Is a bit unhealthy it's a bit unhealthy there's an expectation to hire from without It and a lot of that is due to the fact that There are several problems

To trying to hire within okay, so Let's look at some of the problems from Hiring within one of the main problems that I see that churches face when trying to hire from within is

Matthew 13 57 So they took it fenced at him But Jesus said to them a prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household

It's very you know look brothers and sisters. There's a common temptation You're gonna face that you you are facing you have faced before you'll face again

There's a very common temptation that I've seen in almost every church I've been at when you try to raise up leaders from within To despise the people who you're trying to raise up right so Jesus basically says a prophet

It's not without honor except in his own hometown and basically anyone who's ever gone into formal ministry knows that When they're transitioning from normal church member into church leader

It's very very very difficult for people to make that transition in their mind

And they're more naturally predisposed to do the same thing that they did to Jesus.

You know isn't this you know Joseph's son right like we know him he we know where he grows up Who does he think he is like telling us what we should be doing like churches?

They really have a very hard time in the last church We were raising up a leader within our last church and it was very difficult for people to look at the leader we're trying to raise up as Like not just a peer right not as a peer, but as someone that Like they should start viewing as having authority it does that make sense

So like that kind of transition is very hard if you've been in church for any length of time

You'll realize that like as a leader The new people who come in often have a very easy time

Following you as a leader the people who have been there forever Have almost an impossible Following you as leader because it's like isn't this

Joseph's son pat him on the head pinches Jake we know you right We've grown up with you, but the thing is yeah a prophet is not without honor except in his own hometown

You know my family. They treat me a little differently than other like other churches Do you know I don't know that my back my family is totally adjusted to And I've been

I've been in pursuing ministry and involved in ministry for about two decades now But my family doesn't view me as a pastor in the same way that like other people view me as a pastor

Like familiarity breeds contempt right I mean, it's very it's very difficult for my parents to look at I mean

I this is not a dig on there They change my diapers. Okay. I mean they I mean it's hard. It's hard to transition into that kind of thing even though they

They they have over the years Started to view me a little more differently than all that, but I get it so that that's part of the problem

So part of the problem is a prophet's not without honor Except in his own home household So if you're a church you're trying to raise up leaders who are going to tell you what you need to hear

You are going to have an impulse right when they're telling you what you need to hear. They're telling you Areas that need to improve right they're saying hey

This is a job of pastor people don't realize that this is a job of a pastor job pastor is not to say hey everything You're doing is right guys.

You're wonderful. Just keep going You know the job of the pastor is to try to help shepherd you to tell you hey

This is what the Word of God says for you. You need to take this seriously You know what was what did

Jesus John the Baptist do their message the message of repent and believe right repent and believe the good news That's what good pastors should be doing

It's very difficult when you see someone as a peer to start hearing them say repent and believe the good news to you

With any notion of you actually have to listen to what they're saying at all kind of thing You know and consider it very strongly but then

Like what Tim like if you want to raise up someone who a congregation will love right on the other hand

Then the way to do that is 2nd Timothy 4 3 right So for the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and Will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off to myths

So I like if you have a guy who will basically tell the congregation everything that they want to hear No one's gonna fight you if you raise up that guy do you understand now

I know that you got I know that we think that we're reformed and you know, we're doctrinally careful and doctrinally sound and you know completely free from all the temptations that the

Bible says that we may be full like Attempted to fall prey to but I mean this is the reality in in every church

I've ever been at the church will want to raise up someone who will tell them what they want to hear and They won't want to raise up someone who will tell them what they don't want to hear

That's been my universal experience with church leadership There is very very difficult to raise up someone who will tell them what they don't want to hear

It's very very easy to raise up someone Who will tell them exactly what they want to hear and that's that's the basic temptation that churches face

So then if you're a church Trying to raise up new leaders and you know that happens like you're not really allowed to say that this is what's happening

But this is what's happening a lot right then It's very tempting to look for look for leaders from without right

Because they don't know them and a prophets not without honor except their own hometown They don't know the people from without don't have a long history with them, right?

So they like they view them. There's no like They view them almost as a blank slate and they'll get to know him over time and and so this is just a dynamic that is

At at work in these kind of discussions that people should be aware of if that makes sense

So situation churches aren't doing a wonderful job at this Goal obviously is to raise up elders from within as much as you know,

God's providence allows and you are able Normal means obviously would be to raise them up from within problem is yeah prophets are not without honor in his own hometown

It's very difficult to raise up someone from within who will will Be faithful.

It's very easy to raise up someone within who basically will You know tell people what they want to hear

So let's think about some candidates to reject right so as elders, you know, what are some

Candidates to reject in people that you're trying to raise up. There's this goal to raise them up I'm going to talk about like candidates to reject if you turn your page over you'll see

Then we'll talk about faithful men to invest in because elders are told to invest in faithful men

And then I'll just say a few brief words about a plan in general or some of the basic Characteristics of what an elders plan should be.

I'm not gonna probably have time to go into great specifics at this point, but This will be just a brief intro so candidates to reject

Yeah in general if you think about people to reject people to reject or people who try to be the voice of the people

Those are people to reject that may not be intuitively obvious Why that's the case

But when you think about the nature of what God has called pastors to do God has called pastors to be faithful fundamentally first and foremost to who to God, right?

The job of an elder is to present the whole counsel of God to people That's what the job is

Job in the first first instance is not to be a popular person The job is is not to get everyone to like you.

This is not like how to win friends and get influence and all that right the job of an elder is to be faithful to present the whole counsel of God to people and if If an elder is doing that job well

Then there are many many many many many many many many many many many many many Passages in Scripture which tells which tells you the things to expect of someone who is faithfully doing their job

Well, right, so what's the Bible say? What a man what do you when all men speak well of you, right?

Servant is not above his master if they persecuted me. They're gonna persecute you, right? I Rejoice and be exceedingly glad when you're persecuted why because great will be your reward in heaven

But we're so they persecuted me Jesus says do not think I came to bring peace on the earth

I did not come to bring peace but a sword to set fathering his mother's assuring his brothers a Man against his wife right a man a man's enemies will be those of his own household

You think about the nature of faithfulness in both covenants Every faithful leader in the

Old Testament was persecuted weren't they? They weren't universally liked

When the Pharisees come along the scene they they identify Jesus as doing true miracles Doing true miracles, and they still want to kill him right and Jesus says you testify against yourself

Or so they did to the prophets before them right so they killed the prophets before them You're gonna kill me. That's the way it's gonna work like so you think like what it in both

Testaments Every leader that faithful leader to God raised up had people that he also raised up to be enemies against him

So Moses God raised up Moses to be a leader his own family It comes up to him and says you know has

God only spoken through you has he not also spoken through us and God Defends Moses against that kind of thing but at every single point like there

Moses was faithful prophet people willing to kill him Trying to kill him try and start a rebellion against them you have you have multiple rebellions that are happening

I most of the experience of Moses leadership in the Old Testament is one filled with distrust

Complaining rumbling who is this Moses fellow right? We don't know him You know that kind of thing you think about Paul's experience in the

New Testament. What is that like I mean?

He has the super apostles raging. I mean constantly he's having his apostolic authority that's being undermined and attacked and At various points him having to give a defense of his ministry that the point here is just to say that yeah

Obviously like you know if faithful pastors are going to be just like their master They're gonna have people who dislike what they're doing and people who like what they're doing.

It's gonna be both right You know Paul basically makes this point He says it's necessary that there are divisions among you in order that the genuine among you might be revealed essentially

Okay, so this is this is the point servants not above us master if they persecuted them. They're gonna persecute you

It's not the case. It's not the case that in a in a church body of any size like if that When a pastor is faithful Everything will be smooth sailing and it'll be great and it'll be wonderful and everyone will be deeply unified like that's not the point

That's not God's plan. In fact, you should be very suspicious of churches where everyone speaks well of the individual

So I can fear if you're in a church and like there's no conflict. There's no disagreement

You know everyone is just you know One hundred percent remarkably on board with everything the pastor is saying the only times that happens is when they're like they're basically playing the role of Second Timothy 4 3 for the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching but have a itching ears

They'll accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions. So in those kind of churches, yeah Yeah, you have teachers telling me tell them everyone what they want to hear

And when you have teachers telling people exactly what they want to hear There's no fallout from that Because why would there be right so Candidates to reject are those who try to be the voice of the people, you know exodus like Exodus 23 to you should not fall in with the many to do evil nor you shall shall you bear witness in a lawsuit siding

With the many so as to pervert Justice there's a great temptation that many people have any time there's a controversy of any sort to fall in with the mob justice and to Try to be the voice of the people the advocate of the people like what what you need is you need someone who's going to Be faithful to God who's gonna faithfully present what

God says? No matter how deeply unpopular it is at the time and certainly like we are living in a time that is very hostile to the truth in so many different ways and Yeah, there are many many many pastors like the primary temptation most pastors face is to pull their punches so to speak

In order to try to keep the ship afloat. They know they can't teach on certain topics They know that they can't go certain places because if they go certain places

They have this entire empire that they've built up right where so many people's lives depend upon Them keeping the peace and so the pastor is seen as this

PR representative right HR representative, you know, like basically it's his job to try to keep everyone happy and together and unified and not rock the boat

But that isn't really God's plan So the candidates to reject are those who try to basically be the voice of the people

To make it their ambition to show the elders how incompetent they are without their help that's kind of pointed it's long

You say where do you find that right? Well, you have a lot in the

Bible about How to treat elders don't you? So Hebrews 13 17 obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to Give an account let them do this with joy and not with groaning

Because that would be of no advantage to you Why do you think the Bible says let them do this with joy and not with groaning because that would be no advantage to you if not the fact that there's going to be a great temptation that church members face to Let them do this with groaning and not with joy, right?

This is a common temptation that people face in all areas of life You know when I when

I consider going into ministry, this is something that was deeply troubling to me And when

I consider it when I was you know A single man looking to be a husband one day These kind of phrases that are in the

Bible obey your leaders submit to them for they're keeping watch over your souls as those who Will give an account let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that be a no advantage to you

These these kind of passages all the passages about husband -wife roles and in the New Testament Ephesians 5 first Peter 3

They were troubling to me because I I knew that I was pursuing different roles that granted me

Authority and I didn't want to be the kind of person who

Was pursuing these roles because there was something about my character

That was unable and unwilling to submit to anyone, right? so a lot of people crave power and the reason why they crave, you know power as it were is because they

Don't want to be under the power of anyone else All right, so Marriage grants a husband certain authority certain power in that relationship.

It certainly does pastor grants like the role of an elder grants elders certain authority certain

Responsibilities certain, you know power if you want to put it that way and there's a there are people who go into these roles and They think you know the way that they're demonstrating that they are capable of these roles is to basically show how unsubmissive

They are to anyone and everyone In the process you understand so like when

I when I was thinking about being a pastor and I was thinking about being an elder I Didn't want to pursue being a pastor and elder because I was unwilling and unable to submit to anyone, right?

Now, I mean in church after church that I've been in where people have aspirations towards eldership. It's kind of funny I mean one of the main impulses they have to show

That they should be considered to be an elder It's to basically take you aside and tell you all the ways in which they disagree with you

As a habit in the practice of life, that's kind of the pattern So basically they they make it their ambition to be a thorn in your side

To tell you all the things that you're doing wrong, right? They have nothing good to say nothing positive to say about you or about the nature of anything that's happening

They basically just they think the way to get your attention To get you to appoint them is basically

To do the exact opposite of obey your leaders and submit to them for they keep and watch over your souls as those are given

Account they think their job is to make your job as hard as possible So you'll realize you'll realize as an elder that you were just woefully incompetent without their help

So therefore we need to give you we need to we need to we need to add you to the elder board so that you Can fix us man because we're just we're doing this like I don't know what we do without you

But a lot of people I strangely enough. They really think that way It's really amazing like that. They really think that way that they really think that that's the way that you

You pursue church leadership is just to basically take every opportunity You can to tell them how bad they're doing and how much they disagree with you

And show how incompetent they are without your help First Thessalonians 5 12 says we ask you brothers to respect those who labor among you and are over you and a lord and admonish you

And to esteem them very highly in love because of their work be at peace amongst yourself

So that's a very like these are very like obey your leaders to submit to them for their keeping watch over Keeping watch over you

You know as those whose souls are gonna have to give an account like let them do this with joy not with groaning That's a very different posture then

Let me fight everything that you say Show you I disagree with everything you say show you how incompetent you are at everything that you're doing without my help

Kind of posture, right? First Thessalonians 5 12 we ask you brothers to respect those who labor among you and are over you and the

Lord and admonish you And esteem them very highly When you're an elder you're thinking about people to try to appoint to eldership

You are looking at this and you're saying hey Who are the good followers?

Who are those who? You know who are the who are the best followers we have who are those who esteem us?

Esteem the work that we're doing right very highly in love like who are those kind of people and in Like a crazy person look a crazy person would say hey

Who are the people who disagree with everything that we're saying and fight everything we're saying tooth and nail and make our job as miserable

As possible like a crazy person would say oh, yeah, why don't you come join the team, right? Crazy person would do that That's not the path.

No one would want to do that you wouldn't do that in any other organization Like you wouldn't look at you wouldn't look for the guys who are

So mad at you and discontent with everything that you're doing and saying and think oh, let's promote them They would be a good manager, right?

But people do this and people do this in church people do this in the corporate environment They think in order to have like in order to like You know climb the ladder at my employer

I'm just gonna be the most difficult employee possible to show my employer how Unconfident he is so that he knows he needs me to help him out

You know fix all the things that he's not seeing you have a thought Well, it's very different yeah,

I mean this is a very different than saying hey pastors elders should want to hire Yes, men or a promote.

Yes, men So what if you hear me to be saying elders should want it should should basically only promote like yes

Men right sycophants who are gonna do every think everything they say and do everything they say that's that's not what

I'm saying at all I'm just talking about basic postures Towards leadership towards the church towards the

Bible you understand Like if you're an elder, and you're looking for to appoint someone who's going to help to be an elder

Like you are thinking about well, who are the people who are the best church members

I have As defined by their responsibilities towards me and that doesn't mean like perfect agreement, right?

But there's a way to agree, and there's a way to disagree right yes, sir Sure Yep So best church member.

I'm trying to say best at being faithful church members to their pastor so I There's other qualifications.

We'll talk about the other qualifications as well But I'm just trying to say you don't like what you're not thinking about when you're thinking about promoting leaders is hey

Let me find the one who hates everything We're doing the most and it has a plan to fix it all and like thinks that we're just Crazy and incompetent and fights everything we say and do that would be that would be the ones who are making your job groaning

Not joy right so you you don't think as an elder, huh? Why don't I want to get get all the people who are making our job a grown job of groaning filled with your groaning?

show constant disrespect and You know make them an elder like that doesn't really the thought process

Yeah, so best in that context is meaning the most faithful church members at honoring their pastors, right now

That doesn't that as I said that doesn't mean like a yes, man There's plenty of issues that me and Connelly disagree on but there's large unity and in most areas

Over time and then there's a manner in which we disagree that is Amicable, but I mean

I imagine that if I were to be in deep sin over any particular issue Connelly would ramp it up and maybe scream at me and yell at me and holler at me and If I deserved it, you know, and I would be willing to take it if that were the case

But I mean in general most most things aren't like that, you know so what you want when you're looking for promoting an elder board is you're wanting someone who is

Doctrinally solid who shares your philosophy of ministry has general godly character has demonstrated, you know that they are capable of following not just desire to lead right and so Yeah in my early on in my life.

I wanted to be a person who I'm not just Trying to be a leader so I never have to follow.

I want to be a person who's good at following Who is a model of these things so that I can know that this isn't just a power trip on my part

And I would say by God's grace that that's how it's always been. You know, I Mean not perfectly, but I I wasn't like causing chaos at churches before before I got appointed to eldership

I was in a lot of ways a model You know model church member by God's grace in those areas

So look Yeah Candidates to reject to those try to be the voice of people make it their ambition to show the elders how competent incompetent they are

Without their help hint to others that things would be better under their rule. I mean, this is the Absalom plan of leadership, right?

Like you have absolutely so 2nd Samuel 15 The Absalom path to leadership. Yeah, so Absalom is

David's son There's a lot that you could say about Absalom.

It's David's son. I mean David had plenty of wives and like Absalom is an example of the conflict that happens when

David has so many women that he can't manage all the children in the family and there's inner family dynamic

The more you look at this you more you'll see that this is kind of a polygamy problem that has happened among other things but 2nd

Samuel 15 to Absalom used to rise early and stand beside the way of the gate and When there was any man who had a dispute to come before the king for judgment

Absalom would call to him and say from what city are you and when he and when he said your servant is of such -and -such

Tribe in Israel Abba Salon would say to him see your claims are good and right There's plenty of church members who do this kind of thing see your claims are good or right

Hey, come over here and talk to me. Yeah, what are your problems? Oh, yeah, you're right You're right and what you're saying, right? Your claims are good and right

But there is no man designated by the king to hear you. Oh, man, if only leadership Were willing to address your claims, you know what you're saying is right

I mean, there's plenty of churches church members who do this kind of thing over and over and over again Like hey, come over here.

Yeah, talk to me about your problems. Yeah, I agree I'll if only if only King will listen right then

Absalom would say Oh that I were judged in the land than every man with a dispute or cause might come to me And I would give him justice

Well, you know what the end of the story was right Absalom starts a rebellion against David A rebellion has to put be put down It ended up costing him his own life

As church leaders, you'd be a fool to appoint Absalom's to leadership, wouldn't you?

Yeah, you understand what I'm saying? So hint to others that things would be better under your rule. I mean these are examples given to Tell you bad things and warn us, right?

Candidates to reject are those who sow division Titus 3 10 as for a person who stirs up division after warning him once then twice have nothing more to do with him

Not promote him to leadership, right? I have nothing more to do and do with him knowing that such a person is warped and sinful.

He is self -condemned Numbers 12 1 I already talked about this But most Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because the

Cushite woman Whom he had married for he'd married a Cushite Cushite woman Has the

Lord indeed spoken only through Moses has he not spoken through us also, right? So that was their plan

They're basically say hey, yeah, I know that God has established Moses as a leader But he's also spoken to us

Through us too, right? So you shouldn't listen to him like he's not the sole arbiter of truth

Moses is so humble. He didn't defend he didn't well He was so humble that he told us how humble he was in the

Bible and then he didn't defend himself, right? He didn't defend himself against his accusation, but but God did right?

So God says I have a unique relationship with Moses with mothers. I spoke speak face -to -face as a man would speak to friend

But yeah, I mean that this is this is the New Testament path, right it's in the Old Testament It's in the

New Testament Same thing happens in the Old Testament New Testament So in the Old Testament you have Miriam and Aaron doing this to Moses New Testament You have the super Apostles doing that to Paul same kind of thing, right?

Has the Lord only spoken through them hasn't he also spoken to us, right? In fact, we're better than he is right like kind of thing

He's not even a real Apostle, you know that that kind of thing. So listen to us So yeah, you don't want to be appointing people who sow division

What is what is characteristic of false teachers? What's characteristic of them

Jude 116 these are crumble grumblers malcontents Following their own sinful desires.

They are loudmouth boasters Showing favoritism to gain advantage Isn't that what we're talking about showing favoritism to gain advantage?

With the points we're making trying to be the voice of the people make it their ambition to show the elders how incompetent they are Without your help hint the other hinted others that things would be better under a rule

These are grumblers malcontents following their own sinful desires They're loudmouth boasters showing favoritism to gain advantage

But remember beloved the predictions of the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ They said to you in the last time there'll be scoffers following their ungodly passions.

It is these who cause divisions worldly people devoid of the Spirit so as as as elders

Like these are The kind of people that were told to reject right?

Like this basically just if you have aspirations to church leadership. This is not the path. Okay, you understand

This is not the path. This is not the way to go. It's not way to go Faithful men to invest in Are those who

Well here, I'll stop real quick any any questions about any of that feel free.

Yes, sir It's not

I don't think it's an expedited process. It's a like in the sense of You skip all the other steps

It's just it tells you how like basically it's telling you not to tolerate this sin

And to run it through the steps quicker Do you understand? I mean not not that you should tolerate any sin, but I mean

There are some sins that are very easily easy to establish In a court of law and then there are other sins that aren't right so if Like we all have pride in our heart to a certain degree, right

So like trying to church discipline someone over the generic sin of pride is

Very hard to establish because a lot of times that involves judgment motives at times, right?

So for instance like trying to church discipline someone over lust Would be very difficult like if if it's just lust right, it'd be very difficult because There's it's very hard to get the evidence that comes from thoughts inside this person's brain

Right. So is it a sin? Yes, should it be repented up? Yes. It's very hard to establish it as Until it takes physical form right so if it takes the form of a man having a

Committing adultery. Well, that's a tangible thing that can be verified over and against the thoughts inside of a person's head, right?

So with something like sowing division It's it basically it's just saying this is such a harmful practice within the body

That you need to not tolerate it at all. And I mean sadly most churches are tolerating it almost indefinitely

Right, they're tolerating it and what happens is it just grows and grows and grows It's like a cancer that grows and grows and grows within a body until you're ready for a church split so most church splits could have been avoided if pastors were willing to get rid of the divisive person immediately and instead of tolerating him for years and years and years as he's

Turning everyone against the leadership and against the him or her, you know as they're turning everyone against sowing division behind the scenes

You're undermining everything that's happening gossiping to everyone that will have a listening ear, you know that It could have been stopped a lot quicker.

And so this is just such a destructive sin in the life of body that You were told to deal with it in the

Matthew 18 sense quicker Yes, sir. And you had a question thought sure

Yep So yeah You have

I imagine what's probably happening is you have the Greek word there heresies or whatever.

However, you say it that is there. So yeah, I mean I Part of the problem without going into great length here, you know,

I'm trying to comment on I know what to say I just don't know how to say it in any short manner We Have a notion of heresy that is

Pretty well -defined and it doesn't precisely map upon the Greek word For it if that makes sense, but then it is a clear concept that exists

So I I think this is a fine trans like stirring up divisions. I think is a fine translation here

I don't think that the King James Heretic is a superior translation because of the

Greek word there. I would just say that in that instance Hair, you know heresis or whatever it is

I have to look it up is not operating as a technical term with the univocal meaning if So it's just it's not functioning as a technical term for some very specific rejection of doctrinal formulations at that point

If that makes sense But yeah, there's more I could say, but I don't know how to say it any quicker So there's that all right faithful men to invest in are those who are faithful church members a big shock rain big shock

Who would have thought Who would have thought You then my child be strengthened by the grace in that is in Christ Jesus that you have heard from me in the presence of many

Witnesses in trust to faithful men faithful men faithful men Faithful men right faithful men

Who are able to teach others also, right? So faithful faithful church member you're looking for church members who are faithful church members who are model church members

Church members who excel at being church members, right? Church, I can I have an example.

I'm trying to filter it through For some people okay in certain areas of the country

I mean, I think there's probably a temptation everywhere, but some people like This is a church that we're in right now that has fairly high expectations of church members, right?

And one of those expectations is it's I mean, there's a reasonable expectation that when the doors are open You'll be here and and like there's like you look at when the doors are open.

There's a very high percentage of people Like our church membership who is there right?

So we have you have people who come with a regular attenders We have church members like this is a fairly high

What is the word phrase I'm was participation rate yeah in the various activity, yeah

Now the last church I was at last church. I was that we had a very very very high participation rate.

Okay among our members When the doors were open they were there. I mean it was abnormally high.

It was extremely high They were almost all there every single time And that's good like that's a blessing to church leaders to have that kind of situation

The vast majority of churches are not like that at all. You understand there are nothing like that at all so MacArthur gave an example of this where they were at an elder meeting and they were looking at the giving rates of the church or whatever and So they were discussing the giving race and basically

This is a stat that works in almost every church environment, okay, but the elders are telling him that you know 10 % of 10 % of the church members are giving 80 % of the resources, right?

So there's like the 80 10 rule and that's just true in almost every single church So MacArthur was troubled by this and I mean he was deeply troubled by this and he thought okay

Well, we're gonna have to address this and I I guess it was I can't remember what book it was I'm thinking

Titus for some reason, but I may be mixing up my references But he said we're gonna teach this whole book in order to get to the giving section

So that we can address Okay, because we're gonna spend some time on it when we get there we'll go through it and just see what happens

So he taught the whole book, you know, it takes him as long as it takes him which is long But he finally got there he got through it

And so then after he got through the giving section on all that he asked the elders, you know So what's the situation now, right?

What's the situation? They say well good news. Good news. Giving is up, right? He's like, oh that is good news, right?

What's the bad news? Same 10 %? But that's

I mean that in every almost every church you go to there isn't that that is Like that that's the sad kind of situation, you know

The sad kind of situation is 10 % of your people are the most faithful and then 90 % aren't right

I can and and and the issue is like it's not just I mean, I thought this way growing up I thought well

All right The people that go Sunday morning. We had three service people to go

Sunday morning. They're just kind of Low commitment people, right? I mean people don't go at all.

There's no commitment the people go Sunday morning They're kind of low commitment people go Sunday night. They're a little higher commitment and the people go

Wednesday night They're the really committed ones, right? And that's that's kind of how it worked out when I've grown up for for us

I mean in in the generation I grew up under those were the real committed people. That was the real church, right? So this is the real church the other one, but that's but the thing is yeah

I mean, I think you're living in a church culture that has very minimal Like expectations for commitment level to anything

But if you're trying to pick a leader you're trying to pick someone who not just is Beating the bare minimum standards have maybe we can't church discipline you

I mean, I bet churches we've had we've had leaders who were in positions of leadership who basically, they would spend months and months camping, you know and Like missing church to go camping or they you know

They spend months like whenever football season came they would kind of disappear your I mean your leaders in your church

They would disappear when football season came in the south They disappear when hunting see hunting and football season like they're kind of and then they come back later.

Yeah, we live right beside We live pretty close to Tuscaloosa. You can imagine the idolatry that is

Alabama football It's crazy It is crazy

But I mean, yeah, you'd have you'd have members of your churches who were season ticket holders at Tuscaloosa every week

They're driving out there doing a thing they're gone, you know, and then they're back But then you're stuck with them as leaders of your church, you know kind of thing

Because no one's wanting to do anything about it, but yeah faithful men divest are those who are faithful church members, right?

faithful church members I Have teaching potential Second Timothy 2 1 you then my child be strengthened by the graces in Christ Jesus and what you have heard from me in the presence of many

When this is interest to faithful men who are able to teach others like there's a process of trying to entrust

Like to faithful men, you understand there's a process so They don't come faithful overnight

I've often said that trying to learn how to teach is like trying to take a free throw Like learn how to shoot free throws by taking one a month or something like that Imagine what kind of progress you'll make you take one free throw a month

I mean it really a Piper Piper would say this about his own teaching that That if anyone can find the first two years of like messages that he preached that please throw them in the trash and dispose of Them and I feel that way too.

You know, I've been looking back at my early stuff. It's like man. That was really really bad You know like But I mean there is a like there is a path to learning how to teach right you're not going to be entrusted

So he's telling you and trust to faithful men who are able to teach others also But there's some kind of path to figure out are they trustworthy

Should you entrust to them right make them an elder and that path is going to be testing him So they have teaching potential do they have management position potential first Timothy 3 1 the saying is trustworthy

If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task He must so what is the office of overseer is an office of overseer, right?

It's a managing task. It's managing task, isn't it? so they He must manage his own household well with all dignity keeping his children submissive for how is he going to care for Church of God if he can't manage his own family because overseer is a management role, right?

So you're looking for people who have teaching potential. You're looking for people who have management potential who are faithful You're you're looking for people who have a reasonable pathway to be fully fully qualified So once they're fully qualified then you you know

All other things being equal they're good church members right there unified with church leadership leadership

Not imperfect unity, but reasonable unity then Yeah, that's yeah reason once they're fully qualified.

It's like yeah, no -brainer, right? But before that you're gonna have people who have a reasonable pathway to get there and people who don't have a reasonable pathway to get there

So there's some people who they'll never get there and in one of the major hang -ups is that they're not able to teach and There's not a reasonable pathway to get there.

Okay So what's the plan? What's the plan? I'll say a Few words about this and answer whatever questions we have before we get out of here.

But what's the plan? Well, most churches intentionally structure their churches in such a way as to violate everything about what the

Bible says The plan should be right so most churches They basically just create as many teaching opportunities as they possibly can

And I give people into the like so people that they don't know if they're ready to teach yet But they just throw them into formal teaching roles in order that they can grow as teachers

So you create all these different teaching role opportunities? you throw them into these roles because MIT like the priority is just to reach people and administer to people and You know priority is like felt needs first So whatever needs there are like whatever people perceive as needs of the church you respond to that by creating a ministry

Giving like putting someone into that plant like into that role of a formal teacher

Even though you're not sure if they meet the qualifications of elder or not you put them in to that role

It's kind of a it's not a role that's overseen in any way, right? So it's a out of sight out of mind just create the position like there's a felt need step one felt need right

Step two create position Step three throw the teacher in there. We don't know if he's ready to teach or capable of teaching

Really, but hey he can practice right he can practice, but he's doing so in a way

That's just completely out of sight out of mind right and then Like there's no mechanism to figure out

How are they doing really right because You're teaching in your area.

They're teaching in their area. You don't have any way of overseeing. What's happening, right? So that's generally the plan that churches have so unaccountable teacher don't know what's happening

Are they capable maybe maybe not I don't know right and Then right there's no path to saying okay.

Well. Let's see how you're doing. Let's help you to do better And then see if we can promote you to the next step so to speak right so what's the plan not many of you?

Should become teachers my brothers for you know what that we who teach will be judged with great strictness

Second Timothy 114 by the Holy Spirit who dwells within you guard the good deposit the deposit that's trusted to you, right?

That's not just handed out to just just handed out to as many people as there are felt needs to fill It's guard the good deposit that's entrusted to you first Timothy 310 related to deacons

It says let them be tested first and let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless And you seem kind of logic applies for elders.

You don't lay a hands -on an elder hastily First Timothy 522 don't wait don't be hasty in the laying hands

Nor partake in the sins of others keep yourself pure so you need to have some mechanism to test and to oversee

Teaching opportunities that other people have That you're given to them so that They have an opportunity to demonstrate that they're faithful, and you have the ability to verify

What's happening help them become better at what they're doing and then? Ideally promote them to the next step if everything is going well right and if it's not going well, then

You don't have a permanent position. That is just you have no way of it dealing with without significant disruption in the body, right?

so Yep, saying is trustworthy if anyone aspires to office of overseer

He just he desires a noble task ideally in an ideal world what you would have is you would have elders that future become teachers

You have elders who would see it as their job to guard the faithful deposit You would have them who see it as their role to oversee the teaching ministries of a church

You would have them have a real responsibility to raise up new leaders And the way that you do that is to give opportunities to people give regular opportunities to people you're not just Like being the only one who teaches you give regular opportunities to other people.

I mean not so much so that you're They become the if like they're supplanting that but you're giving regular opportunities to people

Like That's just like this is generally the plan like you give regular opportunities to people you see how they're doing

You tell them how to do it better, right? You see how they take care of it

And then over time you promote people to do that But I mean, I think that those that's a natural kind of impulse that a person would read

When they're reading through the New Testament is something like that, right? That would be the plan for raising up elders that comes naturally off the pages of the

New Testament You can get into specifics about you know, is everything that every church everywhere is doing completely and totally wrong

You know, is there ever any a place for? You know creating

Teaching positions for those who may not be fully capable of being elders

You know you there's a lot of questions that can be asked about that but this what I'm trying to say is this generally is just the plan that naturally arises off the pages of the

New Testament when you read it in a pretty straightforward way and As a church like we should we should be pursuing that plan

For sure. Does that make sense? Any any thoughts or questions about any of that before we?

Go, what's that?

What should the teaching opportunities look like? Oh For people who aspire to the office of overseer

Yeah, I mean I in every church I've been that I think Sunday school is a great place to give other people opportunities to teach

Yeah, I mean, I think Sunday school is a great place I think I think

Sunday night service is a great opportunity occasion to give people I even think Sunday morning would be a fine opportunity to give people

I mean, I think every every teaching thing that we're doing there should be They're all occasions to give other people opportunities after they demonstrate competence

I mean, I don't know that there's one kind of great plan. We do the we do the food pantry ministry

I think that's a great opportunity to give people to you know Share the gospel see how they do with teaching opportunities, so I I think that Ideally that the issue is not like in any environment

You want to be giving regular opportunities not so much so that it's just like the opportunities become roles are reversed, but I mean

I think there's regular opportunities you can give in general and To the extent to which those opportunities are able to be overseen

Then you're able to see what's happening help it get better Identify if it's not good enough. You know and deal with it like that, but just as elders

As elders yeah, I mean the elder role yeah

Yep Yeah with with elders of a church everyone in the church should think that I like there's one standard for elder

Everyone in the church should like think that I can go to any one of my elders and learn what the

Bible has to say For me does that make sense so there's not like you don't want to create a situation where like This elder like you can only go to one elder because he's the only one who's confident

Right or he's the only one for your age group, or he's the only one you know for Whatever right now.

I mean in churches that do youth ministry

Well like that you know like the that the whole church is not going to view the work the youth pastor

Whatever that they're gonna view him as a pastor. I Mean there's some churches. I know that are more like that.

They're viewed as a pastor They're not viewed as a youth pastor that only young people can go to to get pastored right

So if he is taking on the responsibility To teach the youth in one particular setting

It's it's not being done so that that's the only setting in which he ever teaches and no one

No one views him as a shepherd except for The youth right now in the worst case like violations of that what happens is you have?

You lower the standards significantly right so that no one reasonably would view him as an elder because no even the pastors don't view him as Elder you're just calling him a pastor.

He's basically just a few years older than the people. He's ministering to And largely what he's doing is entertaining them and trying to nudge him a little bit spiritually kind of thing so it

There's better ways to do it in other ways to do it, but I think in general elders can be given

Uniquely gifted in certain areas and take on more responsibilities in certain areas, but I Have been at churches where they've described me as a counseling pastor

But the other people know that I counseled to the other people counseled to it's just more. I was taking on more of that burden

Due to time considerations kind of thing, but it wasn't as if I'm the only one who can tell you what the

Bible says on a topic everyone did it you know if that makes sense yes I'm suggesting that With every command in the

Bible Few should become teachers Elders are overseers right they're supposed to guard the faithful teaching that's been entrusted to them right

I would say that Trying to structure the teaching ministries of a church in a way that honors those three priorities is going to look very differently

Than in a typical megachurch where none of those priorities are really

Yeah, so I would think oversight like I'm not trying to define like the perfect standard of oversight

That is there for present that is present, but I would just say that yeah, I mean

We elders should oversee the teaching ministries of the church. They should know what's happening. It shouldn't just be

Teaching that we have no idea what's going on Hopefully that's kind of stuff like that that if we're if that's what's happening

It's very difficult to imagine how we're even doing our job at that point Yeah, so trying to structure trying like I think trying to raise up teachers can be more intentionally done

With more oversight and less oversight Kind of thing and it could

I mean then you could you can help people grow in those areas, too, right? What's that?

Yeah? I mean so And I've been that I've been in many many churches that have done different things and you you can kind of You see all the problems that come from different ways of approaching it, but okay guys.

I think we need to be done I've gone too long here. Let me pray Lord We thank you for the time that we've had today to think about the topic of raising up leaders

I pray that you raise up new leaders within our congregation. Give us more elders Lord give us more people we pray that you would send us more people help us to reach more people help us to open our mouth and Make converts as we go out from here.

Give us more people to shepherd give us more leaders to shepherd them to Lord help us to be a church that does a good job of raising people up from the inside and That is our desire and help us to do it your son's name.