SRR 111 Emails, Events, Books, Controversies

I do a podcast.

I'm not interested in your podcast. The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone. When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the air and combating the air.

We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so, the next few statements that I'm going to make, I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.

We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style.

I would first say that to characterize what we do as bashing is itself bashing. It's not hate, it's history. It's not bashing, it's the Bible. Jesus said, woe to you when men speak well of you. For their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

As opposed to, blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness.

It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle.

Podcast Updates, Controversies, and Recommended Episodes

Alright, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the podcast. My name is Tim and you are listening to Simple Riff around the radio. So, today I'm here with my good friend and co-host Carlos Montijo. So, Carlos, welcome to the show.

It's good to have you here with me tonight.

It's good to be back on. It's been a while, so I'm excited to catch up.

It has been a while. I've pretty much gone AWOL. I've been dealing with some controversy. I've had to leave the church that I'm at, or that I was attending, which was Horizon Christian Fellowship in El Paso, Texas.

And I don't think that you should just up and leave and not explain why you're leaving. And I don't think that you should leave a church for any reason. I think a lot of people, I'm going to hear it, there's no perfect church, there's no perfect pastor.

And so, I think that when you leave, you need to leave for an appropriate reason. And when you leave, you need to explain why. So, the other thing is, Carlos really enjoyed those episodes with Hiram Diaz.

And I want to just give a big thanks to Hiram for coming on the podcast. And man, he really killed it with the Critical Race Theory stuff. One of the things that I really appreciated was the connection that he made between Satanism and some of the views that are being accepted now.

And it really just goes to show that there really is nothing new under the sun. So, a big thanks to you guys for that.

Yeah, those were episodes 108. And the first one that we did was 105. So, check out those episodes 105 and 108. It was when I interviewed Hiram talking about Critical Race Theory. And it was an excellent episode.

We had a really good in-depth discussion about those topics.

Yeah.

And the other thing that I want to highlight is Timothy Kaufman's Eschatology. I think it is one of the most outstanding series in eschatology that I've ever heard. Have you been listening to that?

Yeah, I need to catch up, but I listened to the latest episode. And I've gone through about half of it so far. And it is very good stuff. It's hard to listen to when you're not focused. Because I have to really focus when I'm listening to that.

Because he just throws so much information at you. Very good information. But it's a very serious in-depth study of the Bible. Regarding all of the prophetic events in the Bible. And making sense out of them.

And comparing them to the other traditional views. And pointing out the problems with the traditional views. So, he's extremely thorough. And he's got some really good articles that he's published as well.

This is like world-class scholarship that he's done. And I hope he publishes a book or something about this. Because it needs to be out there. I'm really glad that we have the opportunity to publish it on our platform.

And I hope people get a chance to take a look at that stuff. Because it is excellent.

Yeah.

You know, I've also been listening to the Trinity Foundation Radio. And they're on episode 8. And Steve Matthews is just killing it. And he's also putting out some really good stuff on his own blog. And his own website, Lux Luquette.

And he's also putting out some really good stuff on Thorn Crown Ministries. So, big thanks to Steve. And then, of course, a big thanks to Pastor Patrick Hines. Who is really behind the scenes. He has really been helping me to deal with the personal conflict.

Or the controversy that I've been walking through at my church. Giving me some really good sound advice. And so, big thanks to him. He's had some really, really good episodes come out recently. One of the ones that I wanted to highlight was his episode where he talks about what an elder must do.

So, if you get a chance, be sure to check out that episode. Let me see if I can pull it up real fast. Oh, also, episode number 84 where he had on a guest. And they talked about J. Gretchen Mason's book.

That was very, very good. Be sure to check out that episode.

That's actually one of the men that he's training for leadership in his church. It's a very good episode.

Yes, yes. And that guy was really... He brought his A game. He was really on top of it. I forgot his name. So, I'll have to go back and listen to it again. But I really appreciated the format that they had there.

So, seven characteristics of false teachers from Thomas Brooke. That's episode number 83 on the Protestant Witness. And then the other one that I wanted to highlight... Oh, man. This is really good stuff.

He's really put out a lot of good stuff. Why ruling and teaching elders must call out false teachers. Episode number 76. Be sure to check that out. Radio Luxe Lucette. Is it Lucette or Lucette? I say Lucette.

But Radio Luxe Lucette. Episode number 29, Anchor Babies. Very good stuff. So, you know, just check it out. It's all there. Subscribe to us. Carlos, you wanted to read an email that we got?

Website Access, Podcast Feeds, and Older Content

Yeah, so we have a backlog of emails that I wanted to catch up on. We've been getting some really good feedback from John Bradshaw. He's left us several comments and emails throughout our time as Thorn Crown Ministries.

I'm really grateful for his comments and encouraged by his feedback. So thanks, John, for your comments and your feedback to us. He brought up a question that I wanted to highlight to our listeners because it's a common question.

He was asking about being able to access older content on our website. Older episodes, older articles, and things like that. So I wanted to explain that a little bit because we're still working out the kinks in the website.

When people see the pages in the website, Squarespace typically limits the amount of posts to 20 in a page. We're trying to work around that to see if there's a workaround to that. There are a few things that you can do now.

You can actually search. The search function works really well on the website. If you're looking for a specific episode or article, you can search for it and it should come up. The other thing is that we have two main sections on our website, which is the blog and the podcast.

We have the megafeed podcast, which is the Thorn Crown Network. If you're on the website and if you go to podcasts and if you click on Thorn Crown Network, that will take you to the megafeed. That will show you all of the episodes.

You can scroll down and click on older posts or older episodes there. If you're looking for articles, the main blog is called the Scripturalist. The Scripturalist is our main blog and that's where all of our articles are.

You can scroll down there. That's the megafeed for our articles. That's where everything is. Everything else is basically a page that filters out specific content. Like if it's pertaining to polemics or to the Protestant Witness podcast or Timothy Kaufman's podcast.

We're trying to figure out a way to keep the full list of things that pertain to those podcasts. Right now, we're still kind of limited at 20 episodes. I just wanted to bring that up. Also, an important thing is you can subscribe to our podcast.

Whatever podcast app you use, you can subscribe. We're on iTunes or Apple Podcasts or whatever they change their name to. You can search for us there and we should come up. You just search for Thorn Crown Network.

I mentioned this before. I don't know what podcast app you use, Tim. I've been using CastBox and I like CastBox because it's compatible with Android. And I use both. But the problem I've been having is that they've been putting out a lot of trashy advertising.

Like trashy podcasts that has nothing to do with me. Because all of the stuff that I subscribe to is basically Christian stuff, business stuff, technical stuff. It has nothing to do with what I like. And they keep throwing a bunch of trashy ads.

And now it's getting worse. When you play an episode, they're actually starting to flash even trashier ads. I wouldn't recommend CastBox to people. I'd recommend that you try looking elsewhere first. I just wanted to point that out for people.

Because we've had some questions about accessing some of the older stuff on our website.

That's helpful.

We've got some other emails that I wanted to get us caught up on here. Yeah, somebody actually subscribed because they heard from us from God's Hammer. From Sean Garrity's blog and God's Hammer. So a big shout out to Sean Garrity and his blog.

I highly recommend that you check it out. He has some excellent articles there. Very good stuff covering a whole bunch of things. And he's an author from the Trinity Foundation. He's published books with them.

And he has excellent material. So thank you for that.

Yeah, I think that we've decided that we just need to create Sean an account. And tell him to put his stuff on Thorn Crown.

That's right.

We kind of joked about that we're being outnumbered now quite significantly by a bunch of Presbyterians. Dude, who does that? We're Reformed Baptists and we started a network with a bunch of Presbyterians.

Yeah, it's our ties to the Trinity Foundation. But that's more of a good thing. Because not all Presbyterians are created equal.

Well, it's funny, man. Yeah, we're pretty outnumbered. But I think it's awesome. I think every single one of them, they're just outstanding theologians. Yeah, we need to do that. And we're going to do that as soon as we just get the time.

So, alright. Go for it, man.

Trinity Foundation Books, Clark, and the Hodge-Thornwell Controversy

Yeah, we also got a... I subscribed to Doug Dalma's newsletter for Solar Appalachian. And he's got some exciting updates that he was publishing. So, I wanted to direct you to his ministry as well. It looks like they're getting up and running.

And they're also asking for support, you know, for prayers and for financial support. And to do that, you can go to discoversolar .com. Actually, we need to get Doug back on the show. We've talked about getting him back on.

And we really need to do that because we have a lot of unfinished business to cover with him. Yeah, so he's... Big shout out to Doug and his ministry. I hope things are going well with him. You're going to say something?

Yeah, I just wanted to point out the Trinity Foundation is also doing their annual book sale. Where quite a number of books are marked at 50 off. The 2019 resource sale. So, the 50 off list price.

You can get such books as Against the Churches. So, Against the Churches. Let me see. There's For the King. And then there's Against the World. These books are really, really good. They're basically the published articles.

Those are extremely... I mean, you're going to get so much out of those. Can the Presbyterian Church Be Saved? Oh, and that's by Sean Garrity. So, you know, maybe we should have him on to talk about that.

But A Christian View of Men and Things. An outstanding book by Gordon Clark. The Clark-Ventile Controversy. Definitely a must read if you're going to get into discussions about Gordon Clark and Cornelius Ventile.

I mean, so many people just spout off bad information. They'll say stuff like, you know, Gordon Clark was denied ordination. And it's like, no he wasn't. He wasn't denied ordination. You don't know what you're talking about.

So, there's a lot of misinformation about Gordon Clark that's out there. So, definitely that's a must read. You know, For the King. That's another book that has a compilation of Trinity Foundation articles.

So, all of these books... I mean, these are really, really good quality books. They're all listed at 50 off. Saddle is effective. It started May 1st, 2019 through January 6th. So, I don't know if you have a birthday coming up or Christmas is coming up.

Just get yourself some quality Christian books.

I highly, yeah, highly recommend them. I recently ordered nine books from them as well. I got some really good stuff. I got God and Evil, The Problem Solved. That's a chapter from Clark's Religion, Reason, and Revelation.

That's actually also in Volume 4, which is Christian Philosophy. So, I highly suggest that you get that as well. My family, we're doing a Bible study. We're doing a study on that book, on God and Evil.

And it's been a really good study.

Very helpful.

I've read that, like, I think at least six times. And I keep learning something new every single time I read it. So, that's an excellent book that people should definitely get. And then another one I got was The Emperor Has No Clothes.

That's Dr. Richard B. Gaffin, Jr.'s Doctrine of Justification by Stephen M. Cunha. I just finished reading this and it was really informative. Pretty startling stuff that Richard Gaffin teaches. And unfortunately, when he presented this stuff to the elders at the church, I think, they basically just dismissed it.

So, that was very... It sounds very similar to other accounts of other issues, like the justification controversy with Norman Shepard and things like that. But this was a very, very good book. Very helpful, exposing some of the serious errors that Gaffin has.

And not surprisingly, some overlap with John Piper. There are some similar statements that both men make. So, that's another good one to check out. Then I also ordered Can the Presbyterian Church in America Be Saved by Sean Garrity.

I've been wanting to read this one for a long time, so I finally got a hold of it. Haven't started it yet, but look forward to it. And I also bought The Changing of the Guard by Mark Carlberg. And I think that one is an article up on the Trinity Foundation.

But I wanted to get the booklet as well. And that was an excellent read, too. He's just kind of showing some of the transitions that were being made in the seminary, Westminster Seminary, and the negative consequences that resulted from that.

And I got a couple of e-books, too. The Holy Spirit, Clark's book on the Holy Spirit. Clark's book on the biblical doctrine of man. That one looks really good, too, because he talks about covenant theology there.

So, there's some really good stuff in that one. The Covenant of Works and things like that. And I got Logical Criticisms of Textual Criticism, which is a very good... I think that's also up on the Trinity Foundation as an article.

It's a very good critique of some of the textual critical decisions that modern scholars make that aren't necessarily warranted. They may not always be valid decisions because they tend to make assumptions that may not always be correct.

So, it's a really good study of that. It's a very good introduction to textual criticism for people who aren't familiar with the matter, the subject matter. It's a very complicated subject, but Clark has some really good things to say about that.

And then another really good book that I ordered is Sacramental Sorcery by a Presbyterian named James Henley Thornwell. And that book is outstanding. It's a really good book. I haven't finished it yet, but he talks about just how corrupt Roman Catholic baptism is.

And it's amazing. Being a Catholic myself, I didn't realize how bad it was until he was kind of exposing it. How just the way that they corrupt the water with oil. They mix it in with oil and just all of this perversions that they do to the baptism.

And this is a huge controversy with Presbyterians because some Presbyterians... I think Calvin himself said that Roman Catholic baptism is considered valid.

So you were telling me about this and Hodge thought that the Roman Catholic baptism was legitimate because Roman Catholicism retained some of the gospel. Is that right? Or what was it that you were telling me about that?

Yeah, so it's a very interesting book. There's a big controversy. There was a big controversy at the time with Thornwell and Hodge. And Hodge, unfortunately, made a very poor assessment of Roman Catholic baptism.

And there was a big debate about that. And Thornwell was squarely on the right side of the camp. Yeah, let me see if I can find the quote real quick. Yeah, here it is. So, on page 9 of the book, Thornwell...

Actually, yeah, it's the foreword. I think it's Robbins. John Robbins wrote the foreword. He quotes Hodge saying this... That was from Charles Hodge.

I don't understand the disconnect. That sounds like a lot of the people that we talk to today that think that Roman Catholicism is a legitimate form of Christianity. And it's not. And I don't understand the disconnect.

But that is... That is wrong. You gotta be able to say it's wrong even when it's people from your own camp. We both respect and highly revere Charles Hodge's work. But he was human and he's not the standard.

When he's wrong, he's wrong. That's all there is to it.

Yeah, yeah. I was pretty surprised by all that. And unfortunately, because of Hodge's clout and the influence that he had in Presbyterianism in general, this did a lot of damage downstream. And there's still a very...

It's a pretty sharp debate still going on in Presbyterian circles. And it's pretty sad because Thornwell destroys all of the opposition. There's no way you can validate that claim from the Catholic Church.

All of the doctrines that he quoted as being preserved by the Catholic Church are completely perverted. And this is somebody coming from the Catholic Church. There was no understanding of the Gospel at all.

I had none of it until I got out of the Catholic Church. It's all a farce. It's so demonic because it's Antichrist. And none of the stuff that he mentioned is actually taught from a Biblical perspective.

Yeah, well, they did not preserve the Gospel. They anathematized the Gospel at the Council of Trent. And therefore condemned themselves. And Roman Catholicism preaches a damnable Gospel and is a false church.

It is pretty baffling. And this also reminds me because I was listening to... Our church library has a copy of a debate between James White and Doug Wilson about baptism. And it was very interesting that they brought up this issue with Calvin.

Wilson was bringing up this issue with Calvin and citing Calvin in his favor. And Hodge as well. And so it's just interesting to see how people use men like these because they know that they're well-respected theologians.

Rightly so.

And that's why you've got to be able to say, Yep, Calvin was wrong. Hodge was wrong.

Yeah.

Good argument, but it's not going to hold any water. You know, it's very similar to people quoting these other people in favor of Piper. And it's like, okay, well, great, that's not your standard. And just because somebody said something similar to Piper doesn't exonerate Piper at all.

Yeah, right.

You know?

Yeah, even Gaffin. Gaffin does the same thing. He quotes Machen in his favor. Unfortunately, and people of the federal vision variety, they tend to quote some quotes by Machen where he unfortunately kind of took an unbiblical view of works in certain passages.

And they take that and run with it because they know that these men are highly revered.

Well, Richard Gaffin quoted him. I think that if I remember correctly, that was in The Emperor Has No Clothes.

Yeah.

The author points out that Gaffin quoted Machen to sort of substantiate his view.

Yeah.

So, I mean, we only agree with men as far as they agree with the word of God.

Yeah.

Put that on a t-shirt.

Right.

Because one of the issues, and it's partly the issues that we've been talking about with Piper, is how you define works. And Machen basically kind of restricted the view of works in certain passages to only relate to works that you try to use to earn your salvation.

But that's not what the works in that context means. Works just means works required by the law. Hodge actually has a really good definition of that. It's works required by the law. And so that led to some serious problems downstream once again.

And these federal vision guys try to run with that in order to sneak in works back into the picture on the final judgment and things like that. So it's a very subtle error that some of these men make.

So let's move on. What else do we got? I don't even know what we're going to call this episode. Like a conversation between Tim and Carlos?

Catching up. Yeah, we got some catching up to do. This is an excellent book. And even David J. Engelsma, a very well known and respected Protestant Reformed Church theologian. Highly respect him. He has some excellent material.

And yet he believes that Roman Catholic baptism is valid.

You know what's interesting? He just did an episode with Sonny Hernandez.

That's right.

On Reforming American Ministries. Maybe we should reach out to Sonny and ask him about that. Because he has an ear with Engelsma. The episode that they did was really, really good. I learned a lot about the Federal Vision stuff.

I think the way that Engelsma articulated the problems with the Federal Vision. And then he talked about Piper as well. I thought it was a really good episode. So yeah, maybe we should reach out to him and just ask him what his views are on that.

I mean, he's still alive. So I think he's like 80 now. But maybe we could dialogue with him about that.

I listened to his interview with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron. Another really good Reformed Baptist podcast that our listeners should check out if they don't know about it already. He interviewed David Engelsma on there.

And Engelsma basically said that he believes it's valid because he's being baptized by a minister of the church. And it's like, how are you calling the Catholic Church a valid church? That's not a church of Christ.

I don't know. I don't know how you can say... I mean, so there seems to be a disconnect. Because I believe Engelsma would call somebody like Piper a heretic.

And he does.

But it's like, how would you not call a Roman Catholic priest a heretic?

That doesn't make any sense. There's a big disconnect there. And that's a trail that is... You can see a lot of it in the Sacramental Sorcery by Thornwell. Highly recommend this book. It's an excellent book.

It really sheds light on the controversy between Presbyterians today. And Thornwell himself was a brilliant theologian in his own right. He, unfortunately, was kind of overshadowed by these larger figures like Hodge.

And he died young, I think, too. But he is an excellent theologian. I have a lot of respect for him after starting to read this book. It's excellent material. So you should check out Thornwell when you get the chance.

So I'm really excited about those books that I got a hold of from the Trinity Foundation. I also got What is the Christian Life by Gordon Clark. That's his book on sanctification. So there's really good material there that I'm eager to dive into.

But yeah, so going back to our emails... I also wanted to mention... I actually wanted to recommend a podcast called Undaunted Life by Kyle. And I apologize, Kyle. I forget the last name. But I got in contact with Kyle not too long ago.

And told him that I appreciated his podcast. And he's got some good stuff that you should definitely check out. It's sort of a podcast for men. And it's very good. It's got some good material. He seems to endorse some of the people that we call out.

That we sharply criticize. Like Tim Keller and things like that. But he has some really... He's very thoughtful. So he listens to podcasts that don't agree with him. And even teachers that don't agree with him.

So he's actually... It's part of what being a man is. You should listen to people that you disagree with. I even think they said that in his Bible studies they read books by atheists and stuff like that.

So that's useful to keep you sharp. And to sharpen each other. Good podcast there. I wanted to recommend that for our listeners. Specifically, he actually gave an interesting commentary on... The recent interview between Andy Stanley and Jeff Durbin.

I don't know if you got a chance to listen to that dialogue. But it was a very good dialogue. Jeff Durbin basically destroyed Andy Stanley. He did an excellent job.

I listened to about 75 of it. And I thought... If Jeff had just asked... Andy, how do you know who Jesus is? What else can he point to other than the Word of God?

Yeah.

I thought the arguments that Jeff used were really good. He had some really good points. And maybe I need to go back and listen to it. But I think there's just a much simpler way to approach it. Anytime Andy Stanley starts talking about Jesus Christ...

Or about the resurrection... Just ask him, how do you know about that?

Yeah.

What else can you point to other than the Word of God?

Yeah, right.

And I think this partly ties into this issue between metaphysics and epistemology. And which is primary. Because he tends to favor the historical event. As opposed to the written revelation that's recorded.

And it's like, when you're talking about primacy here... We're talking about epistemology. And how you know. And this was one of the fundamental differences between Clark and VanTale as well.

So let me say this.

Jeff...

Dropped a bomb on him. When he... I forgot how it was said. But it was a meme everywhere. And Jeff said... By the Word of the Living God.

And he asked Jeff, what is your standard? Or how do you... And he just basically said the Word of the Living God.

And all I'm saying is... Jeff should have capitalized on that a little bit more. And this is just... This is just friendly... Commentary on this. I think Jeff did a really good job. Don't send me any hate mail.

I like Jeff. I think he's an alright guy. I just think he could have capitalized on that a little bit more. And impressed Andy.

For...

You know...

His epistemology. Because Andy's going to stand on...

The...

The event of the resurrection. But how do you know about that?

And...

How can you be sure about that?

Well...

Is he going to point to some other source outside of the Bible? Or is he going to point to the Bible? And so... I think that was a really good point that Jeff made. But he should have thrown it back on Andy.

And made him answer the question.

You know...

How do you know? I don't remember him doing that. Hey sweetheart.

What are you doing dad?

I'm just talking. Are you going to go play?

Okay.

I don't remember him doing that.

And...

If he did, then great. I'm not criticizing him. I think he did a good job.

Yeah, I think he made several good points. I think he did an outstanding job. I don't personally like Apologia Radio. I really don't like their style. I think sometimes they go too far. With some of the sanctification issues.

And things like that. I don't really... I'm not a big fan of them. But I thought he did an excellent job.

So...

It was very informative. A very revealing discussion there. And I think it really showed the strength. Of a presuppositional approach. That's far more biblical. Than any evidential kind of take. That Andy Stanley was representing.

But yeah.

That was some... Good stuff there. You can check out that podcast. Undaunted Life by Kyle. And there were some other emails. I wanted to catch up on as well. Yeah, so we actually... We got a really long email from...

Michael. A gentleman.

Is that a hate mail?

No, no. He was very... He starts by saying... I think he was talking about... Pastor Hines' episodes on Eastern Orthodoxy. He has a good number of episodes. And Hank Hanegraaff. As well. And I was a little surprised by this email.

Because he says he's an Orthodox Christian. And I was under the impression that... There wasn't really a sound... Strain or branch of Orthodox Christianity. That was actually biblical. So that kind of surprised me.

I might try to get back to him about that.

Because...

It seemed like he really agreed with... What Pastor Hines was saying. So that was a pleasant surprise. But yeah, so... You can check out Pastor Hines' episodes on that. And the Protestant Witness. Pertaining to Eastern Orthodoxy.

And...

Yeah, I think... I think that was... I think that was most of them. I think we got caught up on the emails now. So actually, there was a few other... Comments. That some people left us. That I wanted to get to.

I wanted to give a shout out.

To...

A good friend of ours. Ernie. Ernie Van Boven. So Ernie... He left us a really good comment. A really good feedback. Pertaining to... Some of the stuff with Piper.

And...

Let me find it. He left us a really good comment. He says this... You guys probably already pointed this out about Piper. But if not... Here I noticed what Piper says compared to the Canons of Dort. Rejection of the heirs.

By which the Church... The Dutch Churches have... For some time been disturbed. Piper says... That on the Day of Judgment he will really reject people. Because they are workers of lawlessness. And he's talking about believers in that context.

We talked about this in... Fatal Flaw Number 2.

And...

Kaufman had pointed that out. Then I will declare to them I never knew you. Depart from me. So he twists that verse in Matthew 7 .23. And he says that people will go into... Internal punishment. Because they've really failed to love their fellow believers.

So we talked about that in... Fatal Flaw Number 2. And that's a quote from John Piper. In his book What Jesus Demands from the World. Page 160. But what we didn't point out... I don't think we pointed this out.

At least I didn't. Was that the Canons of Dort. Has a very relevant passage. Pertaining to this. In section 6.

I don't know.

The one pertaining to... I'm not sure if it's a section on election here. But it says here. It's a rejection of those who teach that... Not every election to salvation is unchangeable. But that some of the chosen can perish.

And do in fact perish eternally. With no decision of God to prevent it. By this gross error they make God changeable. Destroy the comfort of the godly. Concerning the steadfastness. Of their election.

And contradict the holy scriptures. Which teach that the elect cannot be laid astray. Matthew 24, 24. That quote. Christ does not lose those given to him by the Father. John 6, 39. And that quote. Those whom God predestined, called, and justified.

He also glorified. That's Romans 8, 30. So that's a stark contradiction. To Piper's teaching. That fellow believers will go away. Into eternal punishment.