January 8, 2024 Show with Andy Woodard on “Great Reset Christianity”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this eighth day of January 2024.
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I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest who has written an extraordinarily valuable book, speaking of Pastor Andy Woodard, who pastors
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Providence Baptist Church, a Reformed Baptist congregation in New York City, Manhattan to be more specific, and we're going to be addressing his new book today,
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Great Reset Christianity, How Evangelicals Twist Scripture to Advance the
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Left's Agenda. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back onto Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Andy Woodard.
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Hey, Chris. Thanks for having me. And tell our listeners about Providence Baptist Church in Manhattan.
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So we are a confessionally Reformed Baptist church that meets on the Upper East Side of Manhattan at 62nd and Lexington.
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We have 60 something members, I'd say 63 members right now, and about 75 to 80 people on a typical
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Sunday. We started during COVID and things have been rolling along since then.
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And I am very appreciative of the fact that your church is one of the only churches in Manhattan, or even in the five boroughs of New York City if you expand that, that takes a public, very strong stance against the woke movement and the social justice movement.
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Are you aware of any other congregations that publicly take a bold stance such as the one you're taking?
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Publicly, I mean, I think if you say publicly, like they signed the
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Dallas Statement. I'm not sure. I don't know of other pastors that have signed the
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Dallas Statement in New York City. There might be some, but I'm not aware of them. But we put that on our website.
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Hey, we oppose Marxism, critical race theory, et cetera. Now, there are other churches that would be fairly conservative, but they're not willing to take that stand publicly.
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Yeah, well, there are conservative churches that are theologically conservative that are woke.
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Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of those. And even conservative reformed and conservative reformed
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Baptist churches that are woke. I don't know of any that are confessional. The ones that I know of may be confessional, at least some of them might be, but I don't.
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Did you know, this is not in New York, but you know that the Vianney Relays Church claims to hold to the 1689?
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I, you know, I assumed that. I didn't know if he still did, because when I first began interviewing
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Thabiti, my last interview with him was about a decade ago. He would not be publicly saying the things that he is saying today.
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Yeah. And in fact, his book on the decline of African American theology or the decline of African American churches,
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I should say, is a very good book. And when he was on my show, he publicly condemned not only the
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Civil Rights Movement as one of the reasons that there was a serious and radical decline of biblical soundness in African American churches, but he even went back as far as the abolitionist movement when it became secular.
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Yeah. So, I don't think that Thabiti would be saying that ever today. Yeah, that's interesting.
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I haven't read anything by him. Well, if you listen to my interviews, they're still archived.
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You can hear him say those very things. Yeah. You would never think in a million years that the man that I was interviewing would have eventually become a leader in the woke movement.
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You never would have thought that. But anyway, well, if anybody either lives in Manhattan or is traveling through there or has family, friends, and loved ones in Manhattan, and you'd like to recommend them to a solid
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Reformed Baptist Church, go to pbc .nyc. pbc, for ProvidenceBaptistChurch .nyc.
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As we've already stated, it is a confessionally Reformed Baptist Church. Now, Andy, you and I both know that there have been quite a number of books that have come into print by conservative evangelicals and even
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Reformed evangelicals who were openly and in writing making a public protest against the woke movement and the social justice movement.
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And so I'm wondering, why did you think that there was a need for great reset
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Christianity? What are you saying that may not be included in the other volumes already available?
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Yeah. So some of the other volumes might be focused on doing like a deep dive into critical race theory or exposing
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DEI or some of these other theories or philosophies.
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I'm not trying to duplicate that. I think that other books do a good job of that.
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My book is specifically, the heart of the book is messages on these passages of Scripture that have been often weaponized by woke evangelicals to push the left agenda.
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I don't know of another book that does that. I don't know of other books that talk about Leviticus 19 and love your neighbor or Romans 13 or Revelation 5, diversity around the throne.
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From the books that I've read or I've seen, they're not necessarily going at it from that approach.
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I also think that my chapter one is very unique.
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I mean, redundant to say very unique, but I think that there's nothing else like chapter one of my book that is in print.
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Chapter one is discussing or unpacking how some prominent evangelicals have worked really hard to create the current woke movement and that those leaders are people who would call themselves conservative.
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They would call themselves conservative evangelicals, some even reformed. And from what
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I've seen, the other books have a tendency to either not name names.
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Are you there, brother? You broke up. Other people told me, hey, you need to get this in print.
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So I was a reluctant publisher that was urged along by some friends.
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OK, well, it would probably be good. I mean, this may sound unnecessary, but you never know.
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Who might be misunderstanding what we are saying and what the woke movement is saying.
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Could you give us a working definition of the woke movement and the social justice movement?
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Yeah, so a friend of mine defines woke. What it means to be woke is to adhere to critical consciousness.
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Critical consciousness is there's a whole field, many fields of study that have the word critical in front of it.
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So critical, biblical studies, critical legal theory, critical race theory.
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Basically, that criticism, that word critical there, the idea is to deconstruct, it's to criticize, criticize, criticize, it's to tear down the existing systems and to expose the the racism, the critical theory is rooted in Marxist thought.
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And then it's applied to a lot of other fields of study. And so the woke movement is a broad term that applies to having critical consciousness or basically a
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Marxist framework, a Marxist worldview. You mentioned before the Dallas statement on social justice, which is, to my knowledge, the most thorough refutation and warning against the social justice movement and the woke movement by conservative
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Christians, I think, if not all reformed, mainly for reformed, and even those who were involved in it will be honest enough to say that they don't believe it's a perfect statement.
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And there are levels of disagreement among those who signed it.
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But if you could give us an overview of that. Yeah, so the Dallas statement was written by a number of men, maybe like 12, 15.
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I'm not sure that the names are on it, though. But the idea was to have a unified statement against these ideologies that are addressed in the statement to address these issues of critical race theory and feminism and the gender, like LGBT issues and really to have this statement that was broad enough that a lot of people would sign it.
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So it's not explicitly reformed. It's not a Baptist statement. It's not a Southern Baptist statement.
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So that people would come together who are conservative
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Christians to have a unified position. And honestly, part of it is awareness because a lot of people are not aware of these issues because they're just living their lives.
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They might be a pastor of a small church or a homeschool mom or dad. And so the issues that are assaulting broader society might go over their heads or they're just not aware of them.
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So the design of the statement was to kind of rally the troops to confront these issues.
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So that was the design of the statement. But I was not involved in that. I didn't know any of the signers at the time that it was written.
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But I've been able to meet a number of them since then. But you did sign it. Oh, yeah.
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I signed it the day it came out. Right. As did I, actually. Well, the issue at hand is that both sides of this dispute, both those that are vehemently and vociferously and adamantly opposed to the woke movement and those that are equally passionate in defending it, we both believe it is extremely serious.
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Which is more puzzling, I should say, is that there is a middle group that has concerns.
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They may even tend to side in a stronger way with those who are opposed to the woke movement.
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But they never say a word publicly. They never warn about it in any way, shape or form from the pulpit.
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They don't go on the record publicly about it. Do you think that that is dangerous?
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And do you have any reasons why they are doing that? First off, yes,
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I think it's a problem. Because ultimately, you can't straddle the fence on it.
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The kids in your church that are being told that there's multiple genders, you have to have a position on that.
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Do we go with that or do we oppose that? The kids in your church that are being told that they are racist because of their skin color, not because of any action or thing that they've stated or anything, but just because of who they are and what they look like, you can't be neutral on that.
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And so you have to do something. You have to take a position. And not taking a position, there's a famous saying that silence in the face of evil is itself evil.
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And so that's the issue. This cowardly approach of being silent when there's all of this horrible evil happening.
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I mean, it's a huge problem. And I understand why. They're silent because of peer pressure or fear of man or fear of losing funding from the denomination or losing the backing of a prominent woke leader who's very famous and is going to give them a speaking opportunity.
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Or they don't want to lose their publishing contracts. There's all kinds of reasons, many of which are financial.
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So I understand that. I understand the fear of the loss.
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But ultimately, if you if you know what time it is, if you see what's going on, not just in the church, but in the culture, you can't continue to stand by silently and let these things happen.
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Now, there are some folks,
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I've even had conversations with a few of them, at least, who side more clearly and more aggressively with the woke side than the anti woke side, who are theologically conservative and even reformed
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Christians. But they would compartmentalize,
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I should say, this issue because they would say,
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I'm not a Marxist. I don't promote Marxism or socialism. I am very much opposed to the sin of homosexuality and the transgendered movement.
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I am merely identifying with a cause that I believe has been neglected.
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And that is the cause for equal treatment amongst minorities in the church.
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And they will make that claim that they can somehow pull that off. In fact, one individual that I had a conversation with about a year ago said he didn't know anybody who was a conservative, reformed and especially reformed
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Baptist who was publicly defending the social justice movement, who was
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Marxist or socialist or soft on homosexuality. So how do you respond to that group?
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Sorry, can you restate that? There are people, apparently, who say that they are in favor of much of the rhetoric or on the same side of much of the rhetoric of the those that would identify as woke or social justice advocates.
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Who would say, also, I'm not a socialist. I don't I never said anything that remotely looks like socialism or Marxism.
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And I'm definitely not in favor of people committing the damning sin of homosexual activity or transgenderism.
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But they still see the woke movement as in some way communicating the truths of Jesus Christ, in their opinion.
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So how do you respond to those people? Well, I would say that if what they're actually getting at is similar to when
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Ligon Duncan cried or cried at T4G and said that he was racist or that he's repenting of these things.
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Or when Matt Hall said, I'm a racist. If that's what we're talking about, like a leader or a pastor saying,
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I acknowledge that I used to hate, fill in the blank, a certain people group based on their skin color.
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And if you want to repent of that and you recognize that you used to actually be racist, then praise the
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Lord. I'm glad that you are stopping that sinful behavior.
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But I don't think that that's what is actually going on. I don't think that I don't know too many people who actually are genuine racists.
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I'm not saying they don't exist, but that's not really what's going on with the woke movement.
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And so anyway, the issue is that, well, one of the issues is that you're not going to be able to straddle the fence.
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Basically, the person might themselves say that they are conservative on points of doctrine and they do not endorse homosexuality, but that BLM just really is good.
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And that they might be able to hold that together in their mind, but their kids can't because it doesn't make sense.
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That system, that worldview is incoherent.
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And so it's not going to age well. They might be able to stand on that position for the moment, but give it five years, give it 10 years.
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The woke evangelicals that I know in New York City, they have all taken the next logical steps that align with their beliefs.
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Let's say someone like Greg Thornberry is now supporting homosexuality and attacking the conservative movement on many fronts, attacking the anti -abortion movement, all kinds of things.
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You start taking these steps and the next thing you know, take another step left, another step left, another step left, another step left.
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And then eventually you are in a place that you didn't think that you would ever be.
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You mentioned Greg Thornberry. He was at one time the president of the well -known evangelical seminary in Manhattan.
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And it escapes my mind, the name of it. Can you let us know what that seminary was where he was at one time the president?
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Yes. Well, he was most recently the president of the King's College. Yes. Yes. In Lower Manhattan.
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Dinesh D'Souza was at one time also the president there and the and others that that were would not be considered by any stretch of the imagination proponents of wokeism.
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Yes. Before that, he was the VP at Union University with David Dockery.
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And before that, he was a VP at Southern Seminary with Al Mohler. Thornberry has gone very far left from where he would have been before.
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He has a podcast. I'm not sure if it's still active, but as of a year ago, this podcast called
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Multiple Sources. And in that podcast, he and the two co -hosts just openly ridicule all things conservative, whether that means attacking the pro -life movement, lots of things related to sexuality.
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So it's a tragedy. But I do see it as a logical step, a series of logical steps based on other steps that he took.
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And frankly, those steps that he took were taken while in the in the favor of woke evangelicalism, you know,
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Great Reset Christianity, Manhattan Christianity, which is the mainstream of Manhattan Christianity is different from Christianity of the
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Bible. What makes
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Greg Thornberry's story even more of a tragedy is that I have known his dad since the early 1990s.
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I'm not even sure his dad, John Thornberry, is still with us, but a real wonderful, biblically faithful pastor, author, church historian, conference speaker.
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And I would love to I would love to touch base with John because I always enjoyed my communication with him, but I'm sure he must be heartbroken over this.
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I don't know if you heard anything about John or know who he is, but he never would resemble anything about what you're saying now about his son,
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Greg. In fact, God helped me to dodge a bullet. God helped me to dodge a bullet because I tried on numerous occasions to interview
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Greg before I knew anything like that had happened. In fact, I think it was before anything public began to deteriorate as far as his theological views and something always happened that prevented it.
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And I'm thanking God right now that that we never had that interview. Yeah.
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Yeah, I know who John Thornberry is, but I've never met him or spoke to him.
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But, yeah, he wrote that book, A Pastor in New York City or something about the. Oh, yeah, that was that was the biography of Spencer Cone, A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone, which still is my very favorite biography of a
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Christian of all time. Yeah. And it was. I need to finish reading that. I have it on my shelf.
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Oh, good. You should. That was originally published by Evangelical Press. But a really excellent book that I've said on many occasions should be turned into a movie.
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That's royaldiadem .com and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Andy Woodard, pastor of Providence Baptist Church, a
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Reformed Baptist congregation in Manhattan, New York, and we are discussing Andy's book,
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Great Reset Christianity, How Woke Evangelicals Twist Scripture to Advance the
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Left's Agenda. Now when you say in your subtitle, How Woke Evangelicals Twist the
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Scripture to Advance the Left's Agenda, is it of your opinion that some of these self -professed evangelicals are intentionally doing that to advance the left's agenda?
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Yeah. I mean, I've been in meetings, which
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I describe in the book, where leaders of those meetings are bragging about being at the
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White House and the president and his administration is telling them, here's what
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I want you to do. And then they're glowingly describing how they did that.
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You mean Joe Biden's White House? What's that? Joe Biden's White House?
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I think it was Obama's White House. Oh, okay. I mean, it was under,
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I mean, we're talking like, let me think what year that was.
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Well, it was under a liberal president's occupation. Yeah, but I mean,
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I don't want to spoil all the tea, like you got to read the book. But yeah, like this is intentional.
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Also, I've done enough membership interviews with people who have come from some of these very, very prominent churches that push for leftward agendas.
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And they're all like, Andy, this church's platform is the DNC platform.
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Like, you realize that, right? And I'm like, oh, okay, that's good to know. And so I spell that stuff out.
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And then I did some more digging and then we have the book. And tell us about the primary concerns that you have about this.
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You know, as long as I've been a Christian, perhaps even especially in my younger years in the
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Christian faith in the 80s and the 90s, there was a commonly held and perhaps even unspoken understanding, even amongst the most conservative of evangelicals and Reformed Baptists even, that somehow there was a disconnect from the conduct and belief system and worldview of members of any given church when it came to any area of life except the voting booth and who you voted for and what kind of political activism that you were in.
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There was something that was strangely held as a sacred thing.
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And it has to be defended at all costs. And we should never even inquire about what candidates a member of a church is voting for.
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We should never challenge them if they're public in trying to drum up support over people who might have as a part of their agenda the murder of unborn children and the sexual agenda of the public school systems, of the government school systems, that not only want to indoctrinate children about approving and exploring and experimenting with homosexuality and fornication, but even to the point that we've reached of children without even the knowledge of their parents getting drugs and so on, puberty blockers, and the promotion of surgical means to change the gender of a child as if that could actually happen.
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But even though those things may not be a part of the accepted worldview of a Christian, they say that the other things that the left is doing are far too important to abandon and that that is really the attitude and the behavior of Jesus Christ to look out for the downtrodden, the underdog, the less privileged, and on and on we could go.
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So how alarming is this in mainstream conservative
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Christianity? We already know that for nearly 100 years, leftism has been championed by mainline liberal apostate denominations.
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But I'm talking about people that you and I would call brothers in Christ, or at least we used to, and people who used to say exactly the same things we're saying, and something has radically changed.
41:29
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. Sorry, what was the question?
41:35
What are the things that we should be most alarmed about when we hear more and more conservatives aligning themselves with the woke movement?
41:45
Yeah, I mean, there's a whole vocabulary of terms. Whenever I hear someone adopting the language like marginalized, whenever they start talking about, you know, we need to care for our marginalized brothers and sisters,
42:05
I've never heard them use that term and refer to, let's say, Christians in northern
42:11
Nigeria who are being persecuted by Boko Haram. I would consider those to be marginalized brothers and sisters.
42:19
I would not consider an individual who is, let's say, robbing a convenience store and happens to get shot while they're holding up the convenience store.
42:31
I would not consider that person to be a marginalized brother or sister. And further,
42:38
I just don't think that, let's say, criminal justice reform. Criminal justice reform is a big topic, but people who are committing crimes are not marginalized.
42:53
They are marginalizing other people. They are the ones who are disregarding the humanity of the person that they are robbing or assaulting.
43:04
Another term that's popular in these circles, in woke circles, is Imago Dei. Imago Dei is image of God.
43:12
Now, the concept of Imago Dei or image of God is not a woke concept. It's a biblical concept.
43:18
But the ones who are talking about it are typically people who are coming from a further left perspective.
43:27
And the reason why they're talking about it is because of a political agenda, which is usually tied to things like abolishing the police and having a free welfare state and just like government taking care of us and paying for everything and taxing the rich and removing individual responsibility, removing individual rights, getting rid of private property, just like pushing a very hard left socialist perspective.
43:59
But the issue with it, well, what I'm addressing is importing that, which for a long time was widely understood to be progressive
44:10
Christianity, if you want to call it Christianity. But then now bringing that into conservative evangelicalism, bringing that into the
44:19
Southern Baptist Convention, into the PCA, into reforms
44:24
Christianity, it makes sense if you are a resurrection -denying, substitutionary assignment -denying, progressive
44:35
Christian, but for you to hold up the ethic of the world as the
44:46
Christian ethic while also saying that you affirm the Trinity and the atonement and the resurrection and the deity of Christ and the virgin birth and all that stuff, it doesn't make sense to be merging these things together.
45:00
Except once you realize what's being taught in seminaries, in the Reformed Theological Seminary, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, so on and so forth, when you realize what's happening in these seminaries, then it makes sense what's happening in the churches.
45:19
Okay, we have an anonymous listener in the Bronx, New York, who said, what was it, in your opinion, that began the cracks in the foundation of some conservative
45:31
Bible -believing Christians, at least those that profess to be, that began their welcoming, woke ideology into their, not only minds, but into their pulpits?
45:46
A lot of it started through the Gospel Coalition. Gospel Coalition, a long time, like 10 years ago, publishing tons of great articles and just very insightful and addressing current issues.
46:03
But then they start tying it in with left -wing politics, and it's the way any sort of movement takes place, where it's a little step at a time.
46:16
It's not, you're not taking giant leaps. You're inching forward, and in this inching forward, you're inching to the left.
46:23
And so, whether it be like, you know, you started, you heard Sabeti Anubule back in the day, and you're like, wow, this guy's really solid,
46:31
I like him, he's got good things to say. And then you keep reading him and keep reading him, and so you start getting shifted to the left as he is going to the left.
46:41
You have a soft spot in your heart for other people, and you see, you know, let's say a tragic shooting or a mistaken identity situation.
46:55
There was the shooting in Louisville a number of years ago, where a police officer went into the wrong home.
47:07
I believe the female cop got the wrong address and came into this home and then shot the lawful resident.
47:16
And like, that's a tragedy. It was not, like, there's no other way around it. But this woke agenda then twists that tragedy and makes it about racism, instead of making it about a mistake.
47:32
So then, you know, it ties in, it uses terms like systemic injustice or systemic racism, instead of just saying, well, no, this was a mistake that this woman made, that, like, mistakes happen, and we want to avoid those at all costs.
47:49
But, like, we call them accidents because they're accidents. Yeah, well, the irony is that the ire is raised by those on the left when a minority is seriously injured or killed accidentally by law enforcement.
48:11
And they will call that racism, even when the police officers involved are indeed themselves
48:19
Black or Hispanic or women like the one that you just mentioned.
48:25
And they will even call it white racism and that white supremacy is the root of it, even when there were no white police officers involved.
48:34
That's mind -blowing, isn't it? Yeah, well, they would say that this person was killed by the system.
48:41
They weren't killed by the individual, they were killed by the system. And that's the way that Thabiti Onyebwile described
48:48
Martin Luther King. And when he was killed, he said, he wrote this article that became very famous.
48:57
It was titled, White People, We Await Your Repentance for Killing MLK. And he said that if you're white, your grandparents were responsible for killing
49:07
MLK, even though they had nothing to do with it. And even may have marched in the civil rights activist parades and so forth, maybe right next to MLK.
49:21
Yeah, so he's saying that you're responsible because your grandparents were part of the system, even if they opposed the system, even if they were not part of the system.
49:34
And so that sequence of thought is only possible, it's only possible to string together those words when you have adopted these presuppositions, when you've adopted the woke mindset or the critical theory, critical consciousness,
49:55
Marxism, Hegelianism, whatever you want to call it. You're only able to come to those conclusions because of a radical shift in your worldview.
50:04
And so then that worldview, a friend of mine described it as, he said, Andy, it's emotional abuse.
50:11
That's what that is. It's no matter what you say, you are wrong. Even if you didn't participate in it, you stood against it.
50:19
No matter what, there's always a way to attack. There's always a way in which you're wrong.
50:26
And that's that's abuse. But we don't really talk about that too much.
50:35
And I don't know if you'll be able to finish answering this question before the middle break, which is starting in two minutes.
50:44
But we have Byron in Pigeon, Utah, who says,
50:49
Do you think a lot of the reasons why conservatives who are pastors or denominational leaders are buying into this woke movement is simply out of fear of somehow losing something, perhaps popularity and numbers?
51:08
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely part of it. Popularity, numbers, money, opportunities.
51:16
They don't want to get cut off from their friend groups. They don't want to get blocked from their networks, their associations, their pastors' fellowships.
51:29
You're going to get blocked by people on social media. You're going to get disinvited from local pastors' associations.
51:36
These things will happen. But that's a small price to pay.
51:42
Like Spurgeon was kicked out of the nomination by a vote of 2007 and his own brother seconded the motion.
51:49
So if you if you think that you're exempt from being criticized or you should be exempt from criticism when you stand for truth,
51:59
I think you're in the wrong line of work. If you want to do that as a pastor. That's right. And we have to go to our middle break right now.
52:05
If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, send it to Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com,
52:11
C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence and only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private one.
52:22
Please be patient with us because this is a longer break than normal, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1
52:28
FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle. Because the FCC requires of them to localize
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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, where the radio station is located.
52:42
And they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things. While we simultaneously, on the other hand, air our globally heard commercials.
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53:06
And send in your questions to Andy Woodard, to Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. We'll be right back. Puritan Reformed is a
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Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.
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Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.
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We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God, so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.
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Christ. This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.
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Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.
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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?
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So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.
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It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the word of God and is built upon sound doctrine.
54:40
Much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible. Hi there.
54:47
My name is Jordan Tew, and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House. Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound
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We are Baptist, and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the word of God, I invite you to go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.
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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed.
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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.
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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
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Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and a toy in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.
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When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
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Before I return to my guest Andy Woodard and our discussion on his new book, Great Reset Christianity, I have a couple of very important announcements to make.
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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Andy Woodard on the woke movement, on the social justice warrior movement, and anything in regard to his book,
01:10:20
Great Reset Christianity, How Woke Evangelicals Twist Scripture to Advance the
01:10:25
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01:11:04
And always keep in mind if you are a first -time questioner, not only do you receive a free book, you also receive a free
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New American Standard Bible, that is if you're also a first -time questioner.
01:11:17
And can you give us some examples, before I go on to any listener questions, of specific ways where you believe evangelicals are actually twisting
01:11:28
Scripture in order to accommodate the left agenda? Yeah, so in the book
01:11:35
I address a number of these, but one that was wildly popular for a while there was submit to the government,
01:11:44
Romans 13, basically saying you need to close your church, close your business, just do anything the government tells you to do no matter what, because Romans 13.
01:11:59
Meanwhile, ignoring a host of other passages of Scripture that actually give examples of what some would call civil disobedience, where let's say like the
01:12:14
Apostle Paul is being beaten unjustly by a government official and he rebukes him, he says, wait a second, what you're doing is illegal.
01:12:26
So, you know, there's a lot of biblical examples of this resistance to tyranny in the
01:12:34
Bible, and I mention a bunch of them in the book, so I would encourage people who are looking for a different perspective on that to buy the book and check out that chapter on Romans 13,
01:12:48
I think the title is Submit to the Government? So that's one popular one.
01:12:56
And there's nothing new about twisting Scripture because every cult has done it.
01:13:05
The left has always done it, and those who hate the doctrines of grace continue to do it.
01:13:13
So that is what really compels us to be
01:13:18
Bereans and not just take as a fact everything that we hear, even from the pulpits of our own churches.
01:13:26
Now, that's no disrespect to you, Andy, or any other pastor, as you would,
01:13:31
I'm sure, heartily agree, that although we should not let our suspicious minds get out of control when it comes to this, aren't we supposed to be testing everything according to the
01:13:46
Scriptures that we hear, even from our own pulpits? Yeah, for sure.
01:13:52
And we should not just be sitting there believing lies. Obviously not.
01:13:59
Which is why it's important for us to, to the best of our abilities, read the Word, study, learn for ourselves as well, because we should not be participating in lies, we should not be going along with them, but we should be thinking critically and demanding that people tell the truth.
01:14:20
And when things are not true, we should not go along with it.
01:14:28
We have a listener named Joshua in Sicily Island, Louisiana.
01:14:36
And Joshua says, is one of those portions of Scripture that you believe is frequently twisted by the left,
01:14:49
Acts chapter 2, 42 through 45, which teaches that believers sold their possessions and had all things in common, and that this is a model for all
01:14:59
Christians? Yeah, that definitely happens. It's definitely a passage that gets twisted to support socialism.
01:15:10
I didn't address that in my book, or I didn't address that text in my book, but yeah, it's definitely twisted to support socialism, which is antithetical to a biblical worldview.
01:15:26
Yeah, I mean, that text does not compel
01:15:31
Christians to support governments that by force or by law take money and possessions from its citizens to do this.
01:15:44
This was a voluntary act, which is the whole reason that it was a wonderful sign of them being humbled by the gospel of Jesus Christ and being generous and so on.
01:15:58
If they were being forced to do this or compelled to do this by a government, it would be less to their praise and honor for doing it.
01:16:08
Am I right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's one of the biggest differences between what you see demonstrated in the book of Acts and a welfare state system is that the giving in the book of Acts was voluntary.
01:16:26
It wasn't the same amount for each person. You could decide for yourself whether or not you wanted to give and how much you wanted to give, and then it was being given to the church and then distributed among the members of the church who had need.
01:16:43
It wasn't just money being thrown off a balcony or even just given to people who had needs.
01:16:54
It was given to Christians who had needs. So the most similar comparison would be like if someone in your small group lost a job and the people in that small group decided to take up a collection amongst themselves to help their fellow church member pay their rent.
01:17:16
So they didn't get evicted or something. And how much of this, the content of your book and the serious issues that are addressed in it, how much of it should compel us to actually separate and break off fellowship from other, even brothers in Christ who may believe in the gospel and may teach the gospel but have gone way too far in their, not only toleration, but their promotion of these leftist ideas?
01:17:57
Yeah, the topic of separation is a tough one. I do think that you can't, the
01:18:05
Bible says, can two men walk together unless they be agreed? But you can't meaningfully partner with people who have radically different belief systems.
01:18:18
And just being practical about this, our church is involved in an anti -abortion ministry, but we don't have other churches partnering with that organization that are woke.
01:18:43
Woke evangelicals don't stand in front of abortion mills advocating for the unborn.
01:18:50
That doesn't happen. Even though the theory would say, oh, hey, we're united in the gospel, but we can, and we have these differences on secondary issues, but we can participate together in social causes.
01:19:07
That's what the theory says. But practically speaking, not only are we, we have different theology, but we also have different practical views as well.
01:19:21
We have different applications in our social causes that we're concerned about.
01:19:27
I'm not interested in raising money to build housing.
01:19:36
I think that capitalism has the right answer to the church not need to be selling church property to build condos so that we can give local people apartments.
01:19:54
That's not the mission of the church, not the solution, but instead the free market provides the solution.
01:20:01
And so what we need is less government regulation, less authoritarian control, and more freedom to take responsibility for ourselves and our own actions and our own livelihoods.
01:20:15
And so like the idea that everything is the business of the church or the mission of the church is a very flawed way of thinking because when everything is the mission of the church and nothing is the mission of the church and the church loses its way.
01:20:29
It has what they call mission drift. So yeah, I don't think that we can have meaningful partnerships with woke evangelicals.
01:20:43
Like sure, maybe your church can be in the SBC and you are anti -woke and you're giving money to the cooperative program and then a woke church is giving money to the
01:20:54
SBC and they're giving to the cooperative program. But then at the end of the day, the problem is that denomination or an association of churches is going to have a position.
01:21:05
They're going to take a position on missionaries and missions. So they're going to have to decide, would we send a white man to be a missionary in a predominantly black culture?
01:21:19
Would they view that as oppressive? Would they view that as colonialism?
01:21:26
So if they're going to have prejudice against certain skin -colored missionaries, that puts you in a difficult spot.
01:21:35
Now, I'm not saying that they're doing that. I don't know if they're doing that or not, but that is a logical consequence of a woke worldview to say actually our church, we have three small groups that are led by white people and we need some diversity.
01:21:52
So I know you're the most qualified small group leader, but we're going to remove you from being a small group leader in order to elevate someone else who has a different skin color so that they can lead a small group even if they are not suited to lead it for other reasons.
01:22:09
So those types of things, organizations are going to be making decisions one way or the other on those things.
01:22:15
And for me, I would view it as a compromise of my belief system and my worldview to be funding organizations that are doing those types of things.
01:22:26
So as far as that goes, I don't see it as a possibility to associate for ministry with organizations that stand on the left side of these issues.
01:22:40
So that's like a ministry partnership. And then as far as like friendships, associations, hanging out, like I don't want to be friends with people who think that I'm racist because I'm white.
01:22:54
Like that's ridiculous. My church is majority non -white and those people in my church don't like hanging out with woke people either.
01:23:07
So like why would we, we can't meaningfully partner with these people in ministry.
01:23:12
I'm not interested in being close friends with people who think this way. I just,
01:23:19
I think that separation will naturally occur. Now, I'm not saying you can't be friends and I'm not saying you shouldn't talk to these people.
01:23:27
Certainly, I mean, I play baseball with them. I interact with them on a regular basis, but that's very different from being friends with them or actually, you know, wanting to associate with them in the way that friends would.
01:23:46
But I do think separation is necessary. How do you separate that from the fact that Jesus Christ is a friend to sinners, he was separate in the way he lived and behaved and the message he proclaimed, but at the same time, you can't win lost sinners to Christ if you shun them.
01:24:15
So how do you balance that out? Yeah, well, the previous question was about separating from woke evangelicals, but I think that Paul addresses this with the issue of the professing brother who's living a sexually immoral life and he says that you should withdraw from the one who claims to be a
01:24:42
Christian who's walking this way, but that he's not talking about the unbeliever who's living a worldly unbelieving life.
01:24:50
So, yeah, I'm not limiting my baseball team to conservative reformed
01:24:56
Christians. My baseball team has conservative reformed Christians and non -Christians.
01:25:03
And so, yeah, we are friends with sinners. We are friends with unbelievers and we do seek to evangelize them, but we don't seek them out as one to instruct us in a right worldview on Christian faith and these types of things.
01:25:26
Yeah, being a friend of sinners does not require ecumenism, religious ecumenism with people and cooperating with congregations that you believe are supporting dangerous or blatantly false ideas and harmful ideas.
01:25:44
By the way, Joshua, you have also won a free copy of Great Reset Christianity and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,
01:25:55
will ship that out to you if you provide for us your full name and your full mailing address there in Sicily Island, Louisiana.
01:26:02
So we look forward to getting that information from you. We have Dwight in Warrior, Alabama.
01:26:08
What a cool name that is. And Dwight says, you laid at the feet of the gospel coalition the origins of the spread of wokeism into evangelical
01:26:23
Christianity. I have heard that Tim Keller, who just passed on not long ago, was open and very bold in his woke beliefs, but D .A.
01:26:35
Carson is another story. I've never heard anything that he has said or written that would lend me to believe that he is woke.
01:26:42
How did these two work together? So I don't really know how they worked together.
01:26:51
I've never met Carson. I think the closest
01:26:57
I ever came to him was I saw him at the gospel coalition conference back in 2015, but I think
01:27:06
I asked a question in a panel discussion, but that was about it as far as interaction with Carson. My interactions with Keller, I have met him in the past, but more so it's just interaction with those who were instructed by him.
01:27:27
Yeah, I would agree with what the caller said, with what Dwight said. In that Keller was very aggressively promoting all kinds of these woke ideas, and also
01:27:40
I would agree with the caller that I've never heard Carson teach these things.
01:27:46
I don't know what he thinks about these things.
01:27:52
He's one of the most intelligent people alive, so I'm sure he is aware of these issues.
01:28:00
Oh, wait, actually, let me think. He gave a message. I listened to a message that he was preaching.
01:28:11
I have to think of what it was from, but he specifically addressed the issue of societal decline into apostasy, and he was addressing the situation in Amsterdam with the
01:28:35
Dutch church, if I'm getting that right, with Abraham Kuyper. These comments of his were at the very, very end of the sermon, and when
01:28:46
I heard that, I was amazed at what he was saying and its implications for the situation in which we find ourselves today.
01:28:58
It seemed to contradict what the Gospel Coalition has been pushing. As far as the listener's question that he asked,
01:29:07
I'm not sure how they worked together. Obviously, they did. I'm not sure if these were issues where they had disagreements or if they had contentions.
01:29:16
I really don't know. I do know that there is, in academia, there's a lot of cooperation and collaboration where people have different views and opposing views, and they might just say, oh, well, we agree to disagree and that this is a scholarly debate, but I think a lot of that is very misguided and a very, very bad decision to be allowing some of these issues to be agree -to -disagree issues instead of saying, no, there is a right answer and a wrong answer, and you're in the wrong.
01:29:53
So I'm not sure precisely what Carson's view on these things.
01:30:00
I don't know what it is. I also think that it's possible that Carson is simply not involved or not aware of these, the things that are being done and said.
01:30:16
I don't know. I don't know how technologically savvy he is. I know he's definitely fairly old, so it's quite possible that he's not even aware of what's being published on the
01:30:32
Gospel Coalition website. I have no idea. Have you been aware or have you witnessed that there are men and perhaps women involved in the
01:30:46
Gospel Coalition that you actually support, enjoy, promote, who just have a disconnect when it comes to the more disturbing issues of wokeism?
01:31:02
So the question is, am I aware of men or women who are involved in the
01:31:08
Gospel Coalition yet? Okay. You know, that they're sound, that you don't see them as parroting
01:31:16
Tim Keller's woke views on things. Yeah. So, I mean,
01:31:21
I think that description would probably, like, if a listener was asking that question,
01:31:27
I think they would probably have Kevin DeYoung in mind. Kevin DeYoung always has come across as a very careful thinker, a very sober -minded, very sound, conservative individual.
01:31:47
And I certainly appreciate many things that DeYoung has said and written through the years.
01:31:53
There's a lot of people like that who have written or published through the
01:31:58
Gospel Coalition through the years. So I'm not saying that every article that is published by them is the same or that every author or speaker who has been published by them is on the same page.
01:32:14
Of course not. And merely having an article published through them does not make you supportive of progressive or a woke -reformed evangelicalism.
01:32:26
But I would say that, overall, the purpose for the
01:32:32
Gospel Coalition and the direction of it is to pull things to the left, to shift things in a progressive or a woke direction.
01:32:42
But, of course, many of their authors are not or have not been involved in any of that stuff.
01:32:48
Many of their authors are just average pastors or average scholars who got an invitation to write an article, so they did, and so they sent it in.
01:32:58
And so I wouldn't blame them for having an article on that website.
01:33:05
Yeah, it's ironic that D .A. Carson, 11 years ago, wrote the book The Intolerance of Tolerance, which is basically a warning alarm that tolerance has morphed into a view that we should not hold firm convictions on things and, you know, be always in the middle and in a gray area or something.
01:33:38
And it's interesting how those who wave the banner of tolerance have become the most intolerant people on the planet.
01:33:48
And now they're not just asking for tolerance. They want celebration.
01:33:54
They want you to enthusiastically support what they are standing for, not just tolerating their existence.
01:34:05
Yeah. And so, before we go to the final break, give us your idea of the most dangerous place a tolerance of the woke movement can lead the church into, and individual
01:34:29
Christians into. There's going to be very few people in my audience who are regular listeners and supporters who would be woke, but you might have some.
01:34:42
There are more in the area of, I don't want to make a fuss about it. How is this going?
01:34:49
What is the most dangerous scenario you could see happening here? Well, any question that has a word like the most requires a little bit more thinking.
01:35:03
But what I'm seeing, I was reflecting on a comment you asked earlier about, do we really see conservative, reformed people embracing the
01:35:19
LGBT movement and things like that? And where they would say, well, I stand against progressive theology, but I just believe that there's a real problem with systemic injustice related to racial issues.
01:35:35
Thinking about that question, what we do see, people who are inclined that way do typically also go soft on the issue of sexuality, and we see that through organizations like Revoice.
01:35:55
And Revoice is, even the label of it, the name Revoice, the idea is to revoice or to re, to change the tune, to change the sound of the music that is played so that it is still the same song, but it sounds different.
01:36:13
That's the idea of revoicing a piano. You go in and you file down the hammers so that the hammers sound different than before, even if they're still playing the same tune.
01:36:24
And so this, the woke Christian agenda is completely in line with Revoice.
01:36:33
Now, Revoice is trying to rebrand the church's position on homosexuality.
01:36:41
And we all know where this is leading. This is not a secret, and it is not, you can't even argue this.
01:36:51
People who are pushing this, they're all the pronouns in their bio, here's my pronouns, here's my, identify as a sexual minority, they're defending the inherent goodness of homosexuality, even if it's saying it's not acted upon, but it's an identity.
01:37:13
There's just so many issues with this. There's nothing good about it. But people who are promoting these ideas are still calling themselves conservatives, conservative
01:37:24
Christians who hold to a traditional sexual ethic. So that is a very, very big problem.
01:37:32
I don't know if I would call it the most dangerous thing. I think that it's equally as dangerous or problematic for people to be silent in the face of evil or to be silent in the face of the danger that they see.
01:37:50
That's definitely a big problem. Another problem would be to wrongly address the things.
01:38:01
So if you're fighting against it in such a way that you're driving people away so that folks aren't even actually hearing what you're saying because you're just so angry all the time,
01:38:12
I do think that it's important to pick your battles. It's important to know what you're talking about and how to address the issues and not just be shooting at every single possible target as much as possible because no one's going to actually listen to you.
01:38:30
So I think it's important to establish credibility, to study, to understand the issues and understand the topics.
01:38:37
So I'm not sure if that's even answering your question at all. But those are my thoughts.
01:38:43
Yes, it did answer them. And I'm going to my final break right now. If you have any intention on joining the conversation with your own question, please send us an email to chrisarmson at gmail .com
01:38:56
immediately because we are rapidly running out of time. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
01:39:04
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and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. That's chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, says, in my own experience, it seems that far more white evangelicals are promoting this woke stuff than those in the black community.
01:53:33
Have you experienced the same thing? Yeah, definitely.
01:53:41
Here in New York City, there's no sure way, no more certain way to guarantee your church is exclusively wealthy white people than to preach social justice.
01:53:58
It's going to drive away the minorities that are Christians, and it's going to appeal to left -wing, upper -class white women because they spend too much time on social media and they are heavily weighed down by so -called white guilt.
01:54:24
And it's bad. It's a huge problem.
01:54:31
And thank you very much for that excellent question. And you have also won a free copy of Great Reset Christianity.
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can ship out to you that copy. And I really want to make sure that you summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this issue before we go off the air.
01:55:01
Yeah. So the summary of my book, which I would really love it if folks would buy it for my publisher's sake.
01:55:10
I'm not really making any money on this, but the publisher would like to recoup some of the money that they spent to pay somebody to edit the thing.
01:55:19
The idea is that the woke movement exists for a political purpose, and that political purpose is to promote the
01:55:29
Great Reset. The Great Reset is a political movement built around the idea of Agenda 2030.
01:55:36
Agenda 2030 is to implement basically like a new world order, a new humanity that is kind of a utopian vision.
01:55:47
And my argument in the beginning of the book is that the reason why the woke movement exists is to promote the
01:55:54
Great Reset. And so that's why I coined the term Great Reset Christianity. So what
01:56:00
I'm calling the woke movement is that this woke movement is Great Reset Christianity, and it is a different religion.
01:56:08
It is a different religion completely from the Christianity taught by the
01:56:13
Bible. And so that's basically the summary of it, and I would love it if folks would go on Amazon and order my book,
01:56:23
Great Reset Christianity by Andrew Woodard, and it could be found there. Sometimes it's carried in Barnes &
01:56:30
Noble, so if you go to Barnes & Noble and ask them if they have it, you can also request it because they have it in their warehouse.
01:56:37
So that's what I'd love for people to do. Well, we got time for one more question from a listener.
01:56:45
Darnell in Roosevelt, Long Island, New York. And Darnell says, Isn't this movement really guilty of the racism that they pretend to oppose?
01:56:58
Yeah, for sure. It's a very racist movement. The presuppositions tied up in critical race theory are white supremacist presuppositions.
01:57:10
The idea that persons of color cannot achieve the same as white people unless white people are held down or pushed back, that's a very white supremacist presupposition, and that's the reason why it's not promoting equality.
01:57:28
It's promoting equity, and the equity is equal outcomes instead of equal opportunities. So instead of saying we need justice, we need social justice.
01:57:38
Instead of justice, we need to push the balance of power so that those who currently have more are held down so that those who have less are pushed out.
01:57:52
But I address all these things in the book with an illustration of, well, I address this situation with an illustration of $100.
01:57:59
If you gave everybody $100 and they all started out with $100, just in a matter of moments, people would very quickly become unequal again because they would make different choices.
01:58:10
Right. We're not the same. So some people like candy and other people like investing.
01:58:16
So you can't have equal outcomes because people are not the same. Well, we're out of time, and I want to make sure our listeners have the website for Providence Baptist Church in New York, New York.
01:58:29
That is pbc .nyc, pbc .nyc.
01:58:35
I urge you, if you live in Manhattan, passing through there on vacation or a business trip, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones in or near Manhattan, please pay a visit to Providence Baptist Church, a
01:58:49
Reformed congregation in Manhattan. And also, you may want to consider inviting Andy Woodard to speak on this very subject at your church, parachurch, ministry, school, anywhere else that you'd like him to speak.
01:59:02
Go to pbc .nyc, pbc .nyc. And please don't forget, if you're a man in ministry leadership, to send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:59:13
and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line if you'd like to register for the next free Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor's Luncheon featuring
01:59:20
Dr. Joel Beeky as our speaker on Thursday, June 6th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the
01:59:25
Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Not only is the admission free and the food free, but you'll get at least a heavy sack, maybe two heavy sacks of free brand -new books personally selected by me, donated by generous
01:59:38
Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater