Cultish: Examining Reiki Energy Healing and Kundalini Yoga, Pt. 2

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Is Protestantism Heresy? Pt. 3 - The Pope | Collision w/ Jeff Durbin

00:00

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the Colts. My name is Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here.

00:07

I am always joined by Andrew the super sleuth of the show sleuthing around in the background in the digital background over over and up and Harriman, Utah just a little north of me.

00:19

How are you doing, man? I'm doing well, and I'm excited for this second part of this little series that we're doing here, man

00:25

Yeah, so we were back with Amber Aldridge and it's good to have you back. Yeah Thank you so much great to be here.

00:31

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Bible dramatization and please consider supporting our good friend back to the episode Yeah, absolutely.

01:12

So let's just kind of jump right back into it. So if you this again, this is part two So if anyone's brand new to this definitely check out part one

01:20

We're kind of going to a little more of your background a lot of a new age spirituality that you were in Well, we kind of left a little bit of a cliffhanger kind of bringing into the forefront of conversation that a lot of people tend to ask when we've brought this up before on cultists or just in general is

01:35

Yoga that tends to be kind of very controversial when it comes to whether or not Christians should practice it.

01:42

So Fundamentally just want to get your thoughts and because this is something to experienced What's your position?

01:47

Is it fundamentally a spiritual practice that just so happens to have physical? Component to it or is it fundamentally?

01:54

You know, it's just a physical stretching practice that just so happens to have you know Some spiritual components out there, but you can separate the two from each other.

02:01

What's your take on that? I think it's fundamentally spiritual and it happens to have physical practice attached to it.

02:07

Okay, how would you make a case for that? So someone say okay. Well proof proof of claim and obviously experiential but it's kind of how it just giving your experience

02:15

How would you flush it? I make the case for that. Yeah my initial experience Well, actually my first time ever going to a yoga class

02:22

I think I was like 16 and my mom took me my mom and my sister and I and we all just had that kind of similar experience to when

02:29

I talked to the previous episode about Us going and getting that cat and she like looked in the white light and kind of was like checking it out to make sure

02:37

It was okay It was like a weird kind of seed planted But so there was you know There was all the Hindu gods on the walls and things like that that it didn't make sense and I didn't understand when they were speaking in Sanskrit and And all of that, but then as I went on actually before my divorce,

02:55

I got very involved in hot yoga, which was a ripoff of Bikram and That would they would talk openly about Bikram's view on that whole process and the idea was that you did those poses in that specific order and at that specific heat and Humidity in order to wear the body out

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So that way when you laid in the final shavasana the final corpse pose you could

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You could actually get your mind to still and quiet and have a spiritual

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Experience and so And then and then going forward and you know

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I'll leave it to you if we want to just deep dive into this right now, but I ended up becoming

03:39

Involved in kundalini yoga I went through yoga teacher training for that and taught and that is a holy spiritual wh holy spiritual yoga practice because they almost don't even focus on you are doing

03:57

Movements with your body albeit many of them very strange and repetitive and potentially Damaging to your body, but you're you're it only goal is the spiritual

04:10

Gain from it. It's not it is not you're not there to Work out or anything like that And if you are like you'd probably be well, you wouldn't be impressed and you also would probably be you know mocked or shunned for that because it's really about Having you're you're there for your spirit you're there for your soul and your your ascension.

04:33

That's that's the point Yeah of that specific lineage. Mm -hmm So me every any time that you're doing this initially at these ripoffs of Bikram In fact, there's a

04:42

Netflix documentary on Bikram as well, too And that's that's definitely a you know, interesting and I watch that but just an issue when you got into this

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You know, this is around when you're going through your divorce I mean you you probably instinctively did you instinctively know that this is something

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I'm doing That's that's spiritual and I'm looking for a true outlet to kind of truly transcend and kind of get out of you know

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The difficulties that you're going throughout that time. Was that kind of your purpose of why you're doing yoga then?

05:10

Absolutely. Yeah, and I mean I'll be clear There are people in the studio that are doing it because especially hot yoga

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Because you do I mean that you see the physical effects of doing a practice like that You're absolutely gonna lose weight and gain muscle and all of that versus to say a kundalini yoga but And I'm sure there are people that are in there thinking that they're just working out, but you're being inundated with spiritual content throughout the course of the class and there's usually the teacher kind of has this this goal of really like giving you you know some quote or some piece of Wisdom while you're in corpse pose that's really gonna just be like Life changing to you.

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And so I I think it's similar to You know how the occult is seeping into just our mainstream world

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That people may see it as maybe it's just I'm working out or maybe it's just oh this.

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Yeah Okay, sure. They say these spiritual things, but they're not seeing like the full impact but I think that's part of the seduction of It starts out like that and then you want more yeah

06:29

Andrew I have one more question Andrew is specifically about yoga, but then this is just something I think it gets brought up a lot and Andrew you can jump in as well, too

06:36

Just with any thoughts that you have is that a lot of people when they when we have we've had this discussion people ask

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Well, can I just you know, do these different stretches whether it's the vinyasa or you know

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The warrior the warrior pose or just kind of like follow, you know You look up like yoga stretches and people are doing it, you know, who knows how many different ways well, can

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I just sort of Do the stretch but somehow Just stretch but not think of not think of whatever

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Hindu gods that might be associated with or what if I just do the stretch? But I but I pray to Jesus Like those are two objections that people would kind of bring up off the get -go

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Like how would you just given your background? This is something that you're in like, how would you respond to that? Well, I really wrestled with that at first, you know and wondered can

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I find a way, you know, can we do the entire Sun Salutation series to you know worship music or something like that and And while there were times where I wasn't sure what

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I thought the answer actually was to that I feel really clear now that I would not

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I would not recommend that at all. I would not move in that direction at all There are plenty of ways

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I you know, I I stretch and work out and exercise Yeah, and I don't incorporate any of the classic yoga poses the different asana postures, yeah, and especially would never do them in the exact sequence in which they're taught because I Just I just think there's a certain

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I think there's a certain level of power that you're that you're tapping into With that.

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Yeah, it's sort of like an incantation Yeah, I mean, I'm leery to say that because that's such a claim but it it

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I've had enough people who have experienced Who have experienced yoga and then come to Christianity and had that similar sense about it

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And so I I would not recommend it. Okay, and what questions do you have?

08:39

What's on your mind? It just kind of reminds me of Trying to syncretize beliefs right and we know that throughout all of the

08:46

Old Testament in the book of Judges specifically We have examples of the Jews doing the very same things. I can worship

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Yahweh, but have a pull to Asherah as well You know, it's it's the same thing I mean in Colossians chapter 2 it says see to it that no one takes you captive by Philosophy and by empty to seed according to human tradition according to the elemental spirits of the world not according to Christ a little bit

09:05

Further on it says this and elemental spirits. I would say could be demonic, right? It says let no one disqualify you insisting on asceticism and the worship of angels

09:14

Going on in detail about visions puffed up without reason bias By a sensuous mind not holding fast to the head from whom the whole body nourished in it together through its joints and ligaments grows

09:24

With the growth that is from God asceticism is severity to the body. What is what is yoga, right?

09:29

It's severity to the body yeah, you can get strong in some areas and maybe stretch but the things that you're doing are painful and they're painful for a specific

09:37

Reason and like Amber was saying there's poses and that you're doing in specific orders Definitely don't do them in those orders

09:44

But the point is is why do you need to? Syncretize beliefs in order to grow in a relationship with God Is that what

09:51

God says you need in his word is to do asceticism severity to the body and to grow closer to him

09:56

No, it says don't do it. Don't fall captive to elemental spirits of the world to human tradition

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It says if with if with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world Why is it why would you still walk in them as if you were still alive in the world?

10:11

It's just a form of syncretism really, but those are things that we need to push off, you know, you can't separate

10:17

Yoga from the spiritual. It's just not something that that it was that's not why it was even created in the first place

10:22

So, I don't know. It's just it's hard. I think for some people to balance those things. Well, I'm Christian That means I can't do anything now.

10:28

No, you can stretch like what's the point though of doing a yoga stretch versus a regular stretch?

10:35

You know, like what's what's really the point here? I don't know. Hmm, so Somebody asked here said doing and this is an objection that they had and we'll just go over this quick We'll kind of delve back into your story, but it says doing as a stretch actress doing as a stretch as exercise

10:51

I don't see the problem if yoga practice creates a name for my squats as a worship pose

10:57

I can't do squats anymore. I am free to do whatever stretching I want and I know

11:03

I'm not worshipping demons Yeah, when you think of like that objection to do you have any thoughts kind of given your experience?

11:09

I I hear what this person's saying. I also I've I've done squats in a gym and I've done

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Goddess or warrior pose and they're very they're different. Mm -hmm. So You know, there's

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I work out every day and I don't I don't find the need to do any of the specific yoga postures or poses

11:29

You know, you you've given the definition of yoking and that that is a common definition for yoga and then grow in in Kundalini yoga

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It's specifically and we say it almost every class that it is the divine union or communion with God Yeah, so when you're showing up to a yoga class, that's what you're saying you're doing but you're in a studio that has all sorts of Gods on the altar or on the walls or you know in there on their posters or whatnot, you know, and I mean a lot of times

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I felt like a Total fraud teaching at the studio. I taught at because I thought one day

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I sat there I was waiting for anybody to show up and I sat there and I was looking at the altar that was that sat behind me while I taught and I Don't even know who all of these

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Figures are, you know, but here we are and there's candles lit and it's it's very sacred

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You know and not all yoga studios are like that. I think a lot of yoga studios are more secular I still think you're tapping into that same energy and intention of the practice which is thousands of years old and has

12:49

You know roots in other religions and other Ideas of God and are much more in that what we were talking earlier about the one ism versus two ism

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They're not even if they say God, they don't mean the Creator and we are the creation They don't they're not talking about right the

13:08

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13:56

Mmm, do you think like like going to the the yoga studio and essentially as a person who's doing yoga to yoga studio?

14:03

You're essentially in a worship a worship service, right? Absolutely, you look a certain way you're doing a certain thing.

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You're following the leader that is there So I think the question would be is Well, if you're not a yoga studio and you're doing those things at home

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Well, aren't you actually just doing their church liturgy at home? Aren't you just doing a form of worship at home?

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That's a way to think about it. Well, I'm not in the studio. I'm just doing those stretches at home Well, that's their worship and that's their liturgy.

14:28

What point of view do you have to do with the worship of? False gods taking it from the altar and bringing your home makes it special now makes it not worship anymore

14:37

I don't know. It's just an interesting concept to think about Or you could use the same what if you use the same argument to like could you

14:44

What if praying to Mecca a certain amount of time towards Mecca certain times today and pray in that particular pose?

14:51

With that are there stretch benefits or the health benefits you can get to that? Like if you want to go down that road like that That's the type of argument the type of argumentation you can make in fact

15:01

One last thing I have two questions before I kind of jump on back in your story This one person says it's kind of a statement

15:08

But also a question and I think it articulates with what you're saying earlier. I said I have major questions

15:13

I miss hot yoga for the intense stretching and core strengthening. Also. I miss just the plain difficulty of it

15:20

I like a challenging workout and I can't literally salute the Sun over and over or do poses named for gods or goddesses

15:28

Yeah, they renamed them to normal names But they still but they are still God and goddess poses meant to activate chakras and energy channels not to mention the studios

15:37

I used to attend have various idols all around plus chanting and mantras Etc.

15:43

Etc. For someone bringing that up like it will be your initial thoughts on that. I mean,

15:49

I Understand and I would highly recommend finding a good cardio class or start weight lifting or you know

15:56

And there's plate there's ways to challenge yourself and get a really difficult workout in that does not involve

16:03

Setting a toe inside of of the yoga world, right? It would be my

16:10

My first thought gotcha, but I understand the the you know I mean there there are things about the practices that I miss to Not enough to do them.

16:20

Gotcha. No, there's there's definitely the allure for sure So obviously this is a began and this is example

16:27

We talked when the first episode how it starts one area, but always it always continues to escalate. It's never enough So you went from doing the

16:34

Bikram yoga this hot yoga to Kundalini yoga? That's bring us into the help us understand what that entails and how did you get into that as well to sure there was a local studio in Nevada City in Northern, California where I was living and they were pretty well known for having actually a world -renowned

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Kundalini yoga teacher and While I didn't really practice with him more than a couple of times

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I did I did find a teacher and I had signed up for a workshop with her initially

17:11

Not really. That's you know what I had been to one Kundalini yoga class in Seattle before I left

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That was my first First try of it and it was basically

17:23

I was working. I was volunteering for an organization Called yoga behind bars and so we were we were advocating to get yoga teachers into prisons to teach them yoga and there was a lot of there was a lot of Immediate benefit to it and I actually

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I went on later on since I wasn't a yoga teacher at that time, but I did go on when

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I lived in, California and Would go into the local jail and teach mindfulness and meditation classes

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So a little bit of a derail, but I I did go to this This Kundalini class in Seattle and then so that peaked my interest and then when

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I was in Northern, California Found this teacher started going to a workshop with her and then started going weekly to her

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Classes and she became a dear friend I mean it just it became

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I had other friends that I that I had found through that that practice and And we would go, you know and support one another we would do challenges together because Kundalini is really big into there's specific commitments that you make and the the

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Expectation is that you are practicing every day They call it a sadhana and it's your personal practice and the intention is that you absolutely have a daily practice and Ideally, well, no,

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I I never made this unless I was on You know at a workshop or something But ideally the idea was you got up at four o 'clock and you had a two and a half hour practice

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You gave God ten percent of your day at the beginning Which is really not that bad of an idea for those of us

19:01

Christians like to spend like I'm like Why don't I spend two and a half hours in the Bible every morning? right if I was willing to spend two and a half hours doing chants and and You know meditations and yoga poses but So there were a lot of things like that where you would you would commit to a 40 -day challenge you would commit to a 120 -day challenge at the end of my practice when

19:25

I finally set it down I was in the midst of a thousand day challenge So I had been practicing the same meditation every day for like two years at that point and it was a big deal when

19:36

I stopped because the next day I was like I don't do it today like you just because if you lose if you miss a day you start over from day one

19:43

Yeah Yeah Yeah, so it teach it. I mean there's like really good discipline habits in it, you know

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It's like there's there are those things where you're like, oh There's there's a little bit of truth woven in and there's a little bit of benefit here and there on things but the overall is

20:00

You know not not nourishing what I've understood is that so the chakras are aligned and usually people will have this

20:08

Kundalini awakening at the bottom of their spine. I know For a lot of people

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I've talked to who are former into the new age is something that they really look forward to and You know, but all of a sudden once they experience that in many ways for them

20:24

It was actually something that was like scary in the sense that it's something that's almost out of their control

20:30

So it's like exciting but it also gets terrifying very quickly. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?

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Yeah, so I mean in that you know just for the the imagery in the description the the kundalini energy the way they

20:44

Describe it is it's a serpent coiled at the base of your spine, right? and so then it's as you're as you're working as you're doing these these exercises and Chanting these mantras and doing all of this you're moving it up the spine and as it's moving up the spine

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You know these blockages or issues in the chakras and helping align them and then you know once it hits your crown chakra, then you have what's this like kundalini awakening and I you know,

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I remember being in that same that same popular teachers class and getting like right up to the edge of that and I Totally backed off because it was terrifying

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It was just like I'm not going there like you're this close to actually going to that point of the actual

21:34

Yeah, can link awake awakening and but you're not even a Christian, but you're just like no mass. This is not describe it

21:40

What's terrifying? How's it terrifying? I've not ever done psychedelics, but I imagine it's that same level of just complete loss of control like like that that place of like if I If I let go like you like you have one fingernail on the cliff and you're like if I let go of that I just don't know what's gonna happen.

22:01

Yeah, you know, like I don't know where this is gonna take me and and so I backed off right and Yeah, yeah, well it's a space where you just don't you don't know

22:15

What's on the other side? You don't know, you know, is it is it benevolent or is it?

22:21

Malicious like you just and so You know, and that's the same thing with the with the energy healing and all of those things.

22:29

I think there can be There can be actual benefits or Experiences that people have but I just don't know what you're tapping into and I would be highly concerned

22:40

That you're opening yourself up when you are and and I know When you had

22:45

Christine Schwan on she talked about how so many of these postures are just very vulnerable

22:50

You're in a very open position and so you're in this place and you're calling in this experience and You're very open and it's like you don't know what's on the other side of that.

23:01

That's awaiting your invitation Yeah, I would be highly concerned and suspect

23:06

So after this experience where you're like you were this close and you're like, nope

23:12

That's not I'm not gonna go down that route or I'm not fully giving myself over Was it kind of like you just sort of right?

23:19

Well now I just need to move on to the next thing or what happened after that really into Kundalini I mean,

23:24

I practiced it regularly after that point and and then I decided to do my teacher training and I went on to teach it and I hosted what

23:35

I would call healing circles and We would pick I would pick a specific meditation.

23:41

We do it for 31 minutes Everything's very specific on how much how many minutes how much?

23:48

You know, how many days do you practice something all of that? And so we would sit in the room and I would walk everybody through the chant and we would chant the same thing for 31

23:57

Minutes and holding usually holding a position and you know, I'm like trying to remember the one that I was doing

24:03

It was like a meditation for trust or something But you had to hold your hands like something like this for 20 some odd minutes, you know

24:11

And I have like injuries that I'm just like it's probably probably from holding my arm above my head for that long

24:18

Yeah after day after day Can't prove it for sure, but wouldn't be surprised right which is interesting too just because in the new age

24:27

Practitioners talk about how this is ultimately supposed to bring healing to you physically and spiritually

24:32

But there are in fact, I can't remember who it was, but it was no

24:38

Teresa Gentry, for example We're bringing her up a lot. And so Teresa if we're doing well for you,

24:43

I listen this podcast love you and pray for your sister, but You know, she talked about you know in her past.

24:49

She was into like a static dancing yeah, and she actually got injuries because of the fact that she would get so caught up and ultimately get tapped into something outside of herself and It would throw her around so she has injuries to this day where she can only bend her arm in certain areas

25:09

Yeah, I mean for yourself, is that something you just saw with other people as well to her practitioning like getting physical injuries?

25:15

Oh, yeah, absolutely Yeah, what would be like some examples of like injuries you mentioned like yoga specifically because people see that is like totally positive

25:24

You're gonna be all you're gonna have all this amazing agility. There's really no negative aspects to it

25:30

Like when you say like injury prone like will be examples of that. Oh, I mean, I know I've known yoga teachers

25:36

Who've had all kinds of injuries, you know Like really messed up their backs and things like that and even

25:42

I've had actually have known maybe even more yoga students who have had teachers come to adjust them or try to get them better in their posture like or really like try to Align them better and end up causing injuries, you know, it definitely happens

25:58

I mean, I guess the the contrast could be made that you can get injured working out at a gym, too but But as far as you know, it just being this

26:09

This benign practice that's only for the good. No, of course, of course not and you know and especially if you're

26:15

I think there's a lot of a lot of comparison and a lot of trying to Keep up with the

26:21

Joneses in it. And so people really push themselves I saw that a lot in hot yoga and definitely in Kundalini because some of the postures that you do are

26:29

Extremely challenging and you're doing them repeatedly and you're doing them for many minutes straight in Kundalini yoga that is extremely common and it's it's another like Kind of breaking down that mental state to get you into a spiritual place.

26:45

So that way you can really you know Have a very meditative Experience when you're in the final corpse pose.

26:53

Mm -hmm. Yeah, because yeah, well your thoughts Andrew Yeah, like when you get into Kundalini yoga and you start going down this different branch of Almost like new age practices in a sense in the way that you were taking it

27:05

Did it open up a whole nother realm of? Things that you're seeking for to obtain knowledge because it's different than Reiki and I would assume that it would take you kind of On a different path.

27:13

I'm sure you can do multiple of these things at a time But it is a different branch essentially of this massive tree.

27:20

But um, did it did it bring you anywhere? Did you go travel to try to meet gurus after that since this is more of like a

27:27

Hindu based of essentially worship Did anything like that happen?

27:33

I didn't really do any travel for it. I mean I would go to local

27:38

There was a there was a local Like immersion workshop in outside of Nevada City that I would go to and but I mean

27:49

I would say more that Some of the things about Kundalini so they it's a the the person who brought it forward to the

27:57

West Was a Sikh and they would say repeatedly that Sikh is not a religion.

28:03

It's a lifestyle I don't know if somebody want to fact -check that I don't really know but But you you know, it was like you wore a turban you wore all white you ate a vegetarian diet

28:15

There were a lot of there were a lot of rules and it wasn't like You weren't gonna get kicked out, you know for a lot of them, but you had to be sober

28:25

That was one thing and you would get kicked out for that all the time all the time You were not allowed news not you didn't have a drink of alcohol or anything like that.

28:35

That was extremely important in it And so there's a lot of lifestyle ways and a lot many people change their names

28:45

I I flirted with the idea for a little while, but I never did I flirted with the idea of just wearing a turban every day in normal life the the man that I was dating at the time was terrified of that idea and Like it really he's like, please do not come and visit me if you're gonna wear that, you know

29:03

Yeah, I almost wanted to do it just for that reason But but I never did and but you know

29:08

Common for me to wear, you know some sort of head covering or something like that and always really trend towards wearing all white and You know just all of these different things that were supposed to be some indicator of how spiritual you were, you know, and really kind of honing in on that But it definitely opened up.

29:32

I mean you you start learning, you know It's very common to move from Kundalini into learning more about the world of Tantra, you know

29:41

There's a very I feel like there's a very big connection there There's a lot of different practices that it just surely opens the door for and you start

29:49

Investigating more and more of those things just like, you know I was just reading a Wayne Dyer book and then suddenly

29:54

I was a rookie master and then I mean It's just kind of like it's a downward spiral that gets that just kind of can go as deep as you want

30:03

You'll never hit the bottom. Oh for sure. Yeah, and speaking of never hitting the bottom I mean you kind of unravel here that you were able you were getting into you're going multiple times studying very additional forms of energy healing on top of Reiki and One of them was called theta healing theta healing.

30:21

Yeah, so it's like the state of state of being that's It's like outside of dream state.

30:29

So you're like mildly Aware and conscious that theta healing is a real trip because in that practice as a practitioner if I'm working on you, then there's a whole part where I visualized my energy body above your body and then

30:46

I enter in and I can just walk around and kind of check out the Halls and see what

30:51

I see Oh, wow And then I'm gonna let you know what I'm finding and then I'm gonna with your permission start pulling things and replacing them

30:58

With things it's a very strange practice that's and like remote viewing but almost like utilizing

31:07

I Don't know like would would you go like to do it to heal them? So in other words you go outside of your own body.

31:14

Mm -hmm, and then you'd work on the other person's like physical body like or mm -hmm

31:21

That just that just that just makes my skin crawl. Yeah And Somebody allowing somebody that they barely know or don't know at all to enter your enter your body like that Regardless of if you think like they physically actually, you know, like they actually are but like on an energetic level

31:42

It's just you know, and it's like you don't know who I'm who I'm working with Like yeah, that's something that I've thought about in in preparation for chatting with you.

31:52

It's like You know, you don't know if somebody Intentionally or unintentionally is in league with demons, right?

32:01

You know because people get excited about being able to help and heal and have these certain powers and it's real

32:08

It's really exciting if I go in and do this, you know kind of remote viewing Healing on you and I discover something that I would have no way of knowing

32:18

Like channeling or things like that if I discover that and I tell you and you confirm that's absolutely

32:24

Something that's in your past or your experience. It's an ego trip You know and that's and so that's like part of it.

32:32

Like it's so it you don't know who people are who what kind of entities or spirits people are kind of Coupling with to be able to have that power and I don't think it's intentional

32:45

I really do think that people for the most part. I'm sure there are malicious people out there But I think for the vast majority of energy healers and practitioners like this

32:54

They genuinely just want to help but when they get that little taste of it worked, you know

33:01

Or something like that. They want more of that Even if it's just genuinely to heal more people

33:08

It's still it's still it's impossible to have that experience and not get a little prideful in it

33:14

Oh my goodness. I mean it this is Andrew you gotta give me your thoughts on this I feel like I'm playing I'm taking your role.

33:20

My mind is being blown right now just because just because like in this whole like aspect of you know, this environment like you're

33:30

Creating a position of people being totally dependent on another person I think in any environment like well,

33:36

I think one of the nature the nature of why spiritual abuse is so prominent It's just just because of the spirals just the spiritual nature of who we are people end up, you know in order to Even in like in basic pastoral counseling like you go there and someone is opening up about what's what's going on And you have to kind of prod and pry and kind of find out what's going on a lot of times people truly

33:59

You know that people are end up having to be vulnerable sometimes and as someone who's an authority

34:05

Like it's even the best of us can exploit that to our advantage in many ways

34:11

And I think even for someone like yourself I mean you could go be in that background of healing and you could have the best of intentions

34:17

But all of a sudden people sort of look to you as the healer and they almost sort of become dependent on you

34:23

That has to on many levels that had to become like an ego trip for you as well, too

34:29

Andrew would you agree with that? What are your thoughts? Yeah, I would say it kind of has to be that way

34:34

But the way the more my mind's thinking right now is like what what were the things like can you give examples of things?

34:39

That you saw when you're entering into somebody's I don't even know if think I don't know if psyche is even the right word but like give some examples if you could as broad as possible just for The people or whatever that went through this as well

34:53

But just just some examples, so I'm very curious Like did you see visions of like you said hauls like hauls and you're materializing things in your head about walking into somebody's

35:04

I don't know some type of mental compartment where you're going in there sorting through files Like what exactly were you doing?

35:09

Yeah, that's what it felt like it felt like Oftentimes the visual would be that that you would be

35:15

I'd be walking Through like a hallway and there would be many doors, you know and I would

35:21

I would walk through a specific door and then it would I'm not a I'm not a terribly visual person in my mind when

35:28

I close my eyes, you know some people are and some people are not and I'm not one of them, but so I would get more of like a

35:35

Sense of something and then have to try to Put words to it, you know

35:43

And so and then and then you're getting the feedback from them as you're as you're sharing what you're finding

35:49

I didn't do a lot of this. Honestly the majority of the sessions I did for theta healing

35:56

I was doing during my trainings I Feel like this is a grace of God that there were a lot of failed attempts at me being an energy healer

36:06

Like I would try like I was really on point and on path to open my own

36:13

Space and I had you know, I had the business license. I had the space I had everything figured out and then

36:19

I mentioned in that in the last episode that my my best friend died Unexpectedly and it just I went into a tailspin and then

36:27

I ended up leaving and going to Ecuador So there were a lot of things like that where you know

36:33

I didn't I didn't end up practicing as often as I maybe would have or or should have

36:41

But I feel like now looking back It was a real grace because I think I would have I I think

36:47

I would have just delved even deeper like it helped Kind of temper it a little

36:52

Yeah, that makes sense Hey everyone, if you are watching us right now on apology of studios

36:58

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37:04

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37:19

Which will also help support the studio which will allow cultists to be a possibility as well on a weekly basis

37:25

So we thank you all for watching us and now back to the episode. Yeah. Yeah, definitely

37:30

So I guess another question I have as we kind of go along here So, I mean you're doing all these different healing modalities You're kind of still bouncing from one thing to another and sometimes this hit is hit or miss

37:40

Like in this whole process a continually to bounce from one thing to another Was there ever a part of you that just said is this is there an end in sight?

37:50

I mean, it's or at least you can maybe begin to kind of question like where is this? Where does this all in regards to the all the different spirituality you're practicing?

37:57

Because I mean this was nearly two two decades of your life. I mean a long long time Yeah, and I mean there has to be a point at some time where it's like something's gotta give like I've got a reach

38:09

Like am I gonna send at some point? I mean, I don't know. I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on that Yeah, I mean,

38:15

I think it is is what we talked about earlier that you know It's there's so many good reasons for why it's a slow process

38:22

And so and they're not good technically reasons, but that in the new age

38:27

They push a lot of these reasons and so it becomes you know Well, I just must have more karma to deal with or more shadow stuff to deal with or you know whatever the excuses like you just find you just you find these these reasons and then you realize that like the the power or the

38:49

The high of going to yet another workshop or another training kind of becomes the answer

38:54

So it's it I didn't I'm sure maybe smarter people got around to being like, huh?

39:01

Maybe there's more But I just kind of kept thinking it's par for the course, you know, but I will say in a completely egotistical space

39:12

I I Absolutely believed that I was here because I was you know

39:18

Going to ascend in this lifetime Like so it was a it was more like just keep pushing because you know, you came at this specific time to be part of the help for the earth and so and and so it's a very

39:33

Like I said, very egotistical perspective to Self -assign as a as an absolute

39:40

Ascended master And I wouldn't have said that out loud to anybody but in my mind,

39:46

I certainly felt that way and I had experiences where other practitioners would work on me and they would get these visions of You know people bowing to me and all of these things and that really messes with you.

40:00

Yeah It really does, you know, it creates this this ego situation.

40:07

Oh, man Yeah, I mean so Yeah, I'm actually even nervous that I just said that Yeah, I mean that again this part of who you were and where you came from and it's just you know

40:19

And this is and and this is just amazing of what you know, how the Lord has worked in your life

40:24

You know, which is a real testament to that. So this is where I want to kind of really Get into the just really where it gets interesting

40:33

Specifically so we all every one of us listening in knows that 2020 was an absolutely crazy insane year for all of us

40:41

March of 2020 Everything went crazy But for you, that was a unique year for you

40:49

In regards to really being saved out of the new age, but it started on a vision quest

40:55

You know and so tell me about that I just think about going on a vision quest somewhere out in the middle of Arizona, especially now as hot as it is

41:03

Mm -hmm All I see in the description says you went out on your first vision quest and you sat out in Joshua Tree for 24 hours of fasting with no food or water in a hundred hundred and three degree heat alone with nothing but a camp pad blanket and what you're wearing surrounded by prayer ties, so Bring us into that because again,

41:26

I'm thinking it's currently Hunters probably like a hundred and something degrees outside. Yeah.

41:32

Yeah, so it's definitely so it's in the same neighborhood Yeah, so I can resonate with what you're talking about here.

41:38

So bring us into this vision quest back in 2020 Yeah, I will I'm in a rewind just slightly for 2020 because how it started off it kicked off with a bang before kovat hit but the

41:52

January of 2020 a book came out that basically exposed

41:58

And just rocked the kundalini world. So I was still teaching. I was still practicing daily and It was my it was my identity slash life was was in that world and And this book came out and it basically it's all the things you ever hear about a guru

42:21

It's you know a sexual abuse extreme abuse of power It being hidden and and covered up and continues to be so and And everybody just kind of all the all of my friends in that world just had like this earthquake and this

42:43

Reconciling of like does this mean I can't practice anymore and there was a lot of like we can divorce the teacher from the teachings and And desire to continue forward and I just really, you know

42:58

Meditated on it and felt strongly that it was just not

43:03

Okay, and that I was gonna put my practice down and so I set my kundalini practice down I was literally finishing up a workshop that I was teaching at the local yoga studio yeah, so I had to completely change like what

43:15

I was doing and and do something that was not kundalini for a kundalini workshop and And try to not make it, you know, super awkward and then

43:27

And then March hit and then I was in California. So it was extreme lockdown.

43:33

I lived alone So it was really bad. I was I was really depressed I had a lot of really hard times and I had been stripped of the practice that I felt most defined by and And so the

43:48

Opportunity came up. I actually went in June to Oregon for For the the same vision quest process, but I wasn't

43:57

I wasn't one of the questers I went in support and so I went just and served my time in you know

44:06

Preparing food for when they could eat again holding space and praying for them during the time that they were out and and all of this and so and it was with the

44:15

Person that I ended up going out and and having this experience with in Joshua tree

44:20

So so that was June and then the opportunity came up in September To actually participate and do it and I think

44:29

I made the decision like less than a week before Because I was really wrestling with it and it was supposed to be in the 90s

44:38

Which I thought was going to be unbearable But it ended up being hotter than that it was it was above it was triple digits every day we were there and so we had they did

44:50

They did build a shade structure That I was underneath because otherwise there's just not a chance.

44:58

I mean, I'm like Norwegian and English and German Yeah, so and And that process is

45:11

It's I believe it's from the Lakota tradition. He had been trained by by those people and And had been given permission to Go ahead and offer it out.

45:25

And so it was yet another sweat lodge so we sat for a sweat lodge at like four o 'clock, which happens to be the hottest part of the day and Went in for that it was the quickest sweat lodge

45:36

I've ever sat for because he didn't want to kill us and But in in that vein that that sweat is considered your death thing

45:46

It's a death and when you come out of that sweat lodge You are taken to the space that's already been prepared for you and you have created in Preparation for this event.

45:59

You have created these prayer ties and they're they're tied to To you know, willow sticks or some sort of stick that's put into the ground as a stake and each tie is a small square of fabric and they're very specific colors and they have to go in a very specific order and you fill each one with tobacco and you

46:18

Blow your prayers into it and then you tie it off and they have to be a certain, you know you're trying to get them a certain distance and it's very specific and and then that Encircles you and you don't leave that space and the combination of that Surrounding you plus the fire that's back at the main camp outside of the sweat lodge is

46:41

The and the prayers of the people there is the protection that's holding you safe while you're sitting out there with no food and no water

46:50

I made an interesting choice My vision is really poor and I knew I couldn't sit out for 24 hours in the desert with my contacts in Especially not drinking water.

47:00

That would never work, right? But I was worried if I wore my glasses inside the sweat lodge that they would break because it's so hot in there

47:06

So I just went out blind So had I been bitten by one of the five different types of rattlesnakes that was out there

47:15

I probably would not have been able to identify it for the hospital to know which antivenom to give me.

47:20

Oh, wow So I was praying hard. Mm -hmm. I was praying really hard and and the prayer was and I mean

47:29

God put this prayer in my heart. I didn't I don't know where it came from other than that, but the prayer was

47:36

Changed my heart and my mind show me the truth and They come 24 hours later and retrieve you and you go into another sweat lodge and That is your rebirthing sweat lodge

47:50

So when you come out of that they welcome you like the first day of your new life And I thought it was really interesting because when

47:57

I was getting ready, I was baptized in March of this year and And as I was thinking about that whole experience that death thing and that rebirthing in the sweat lodge.

48:09

I was like, oh, it's interesting it's like How the enemy likes to play with things

48:14

And and use pieces of things like it feels like a baptism by fire Yeah that that process which is leaving you with a counterfeit which is the opposite of the baptism by water.

48:25

Yeah. Uh -huh Wow, that was a lot So when you were on your your vision quest

48:33

How far you were you away from anybody else that could have a possibly helped you if you were to have heatstroke or anything?

48:40

Yeah, I actually was closer than I ought to have been So I'm terrible with distance, but I could have walked to them and they could have walked to me on occasion

48:52

I could hear them It was originally He originally questioned me on my placement

49:01

But you're supposed to walk out there and wait for The earth to tell you where you're supposed to be and that was where the earth told me to be

49:08

So that's where we were. That's where I was But the other there was only one other quest are on that and and he was out a bit further

49:15

So I could not see I could not see him from where I was

49:22

But you know if I had screamed they would have heard me so it's not like I don't mean I'm I'm sure there are people who have done this in in my in a much dangerous way like Much more dangerous way

49:34

I'm sure there are people who and I know people who including the person who led this who have just put themselves out themselves and nobody's holding space for them and nobody knows where they are and And the idea is that so the the traditional vision quest is a four -day process you fast for the four days.

49:53

No food. No water But they know that that's in that's just not That's not reasonable for white folks that have grown up in houses and you know what

50:05

I mean Like had this whole like comfortable life. And so So how they do it is they do each year you go out for 24 hours longer

50:17

So it's on the fourth year that you work yourself up to a four -year or I'm sorry a four -day Process Wow, yeah.

50:25

Yeah, so I don't know if I have the physical wherewithal for a vision quest I don't know from vision quest material myself

50:32

But yeah, so what's interesting too is that you know We're kind of going through all the different practices that you are in not necessary to glorify it

50:42

But just to show that this is just something that when you look at just New Age Ideology or people who are into the

50:47

New Age is that you know Walter Martin had this prayer where he says that we need to have compassion and the love of Christ for these people who are seeking

50:54

Out for help, but he said but not from the but from the forces of evil So, you know you have people that are legitimately trying to find true meaning true healing true purpose true

51:06

Identity that ultimately can be found in Christ that the triune and the triune God but they're trying to find it everywhere else and So what's interesting too is that While you know

51:18

There's always different areas a lot of times where people in the New Age will come to Christ in a very sort of soup very transcendent supernatural way where it's like they see

51:27

Jesus and as some sort of vision or Something that entails them that gets them like to a Bible and with this case

51:34

There wasn't exactly that I mean you kind of said sort of the super almost like a superstitious prayer Kind of like it reminds me of the when you're in the sweat lodge

51:42

It almost reminds me of you know The woman who's like if I can only touch is if I can only touch the garment of Jesus I'll be made well, but even that act of faith.

51:50

It was very it was really Tied up with a lot of almost like superstition But it was still faith in the object that she was looking that she was head towards but with you

52:00

It's like you said you got back from this vision quest but all of a sudden you just Had the desire to start reading your

52:06

Bible and and all of a sudden a lot of you said you're woke ideology or probably you're You didn't feel as antagonistic towards patriotic white men.

52:15

Yeah, or tell us about that. Yeah, that started falling away praise God and then And then yeah, it was probably a couple months later that I really

52:23

I couldn't explain it But I really started desiring reading my Bible and I had my

52:29

King James Version Bible from my childhood, which I don't know how I still had.

52:35

I mean I had contemplated burning it That's how rebellious against God I was And and how much of a fraud

52:42

I thought it was and so but I did have it and I pulled it out and then

52:48

You know, that was that was probably December of 2020

52:54

January of 2021 and by by March I had Moved across the country to Western, North Carolina and started attending

53:05

You know a reformed Christian Church and Just and and felt like a fraud there too, you know and and just felt like I don't even know why

53:16

I'm here I don't even know if I believe this because I had just been so Ripped up by just the you know

53:27

I love that Pastor Jeff will call it like this these man -made religions and that's where you know, they've they've taken the gospel

53:34

Misinterpreted it they've added to it. They've made it into a works -based belief system or you know, something super legalistic and You know are making making somehow you part of your salvation like you have to do these certain things and taking away the the doctrines of grace in that and So, you know,

53:55

I had all of that baggage that I was dealing with but I just thought

54:00

I just felt that it was where I needed to be and so and then

54:07

Over the course of time and especially, you know, once I got here, you know

54:12

I decided it was time to come back home and a couple of things worked out really well that I wasn't

54:18

I wasn't Intending to move to the Phoenix area. I was gonna go to Tucson But a number of things kind of all unfolded at the same time and I found out about apologia and I started

54:30

Just I just shifted my plan and was like I'm gonna at least go there long enough to check him out Mm -hmm, and once I got in really solid biblical teachings then

54:41

Then it what I didn't feel like a fraud anymore. I was like, oh, this is actually the truth like and it's just such a

54:49

Like but I've been seeking for so long and the answer is so easy, you know and as you said before it is so easy, but We just rail against it

55:02

So hard. Yeah, so so I have a question How did you get to a reformed church in North Carolina?

55:08

Like did was there someone that came alongside you? Did you get hooked up in a Bible study somewhere? Yeah, someone pointed you to a church

55:14

My aunt and uncle who live in Tucson, which was why I was planning on moving to Tucson. They've just been really influential

55:21

God to use them heavily in in calling me back to himself and And Calling me to him.

55:28

I don't like how that came out and they They actually she did some research and found a church and it was it was a lovely church.

55:39

But I Never heard any of the doctrines of grace while I was there. I didn't even understand.

55:45

I still didn't understand what reformed meant when When I was attending that because there was no evidence from any of the sermons

55:54

I attended so so it wasn't really until I moved here and and got linked into Apology and and starting to go to you know

56:05

A Bible study reach group here and and all of that that I really started diving deep and I mean that's that's something about Yeah, we don't do church light

56:16

Yeah so a question I have to is that we're kind of wrapping up here is that you mentioned that uh

56:22

So one of our good and dear friends Doreen virtue one of the sweetest people I know

56:27

She was talking about Getting rid of all of your idols. You talked earlier about you just had a giant just collection of Every just everything under the sun when it comes to New Age stuff

56:38

And so the one commonality anyone we talked to who gets into the New Age is that once they genuinely come to Christ They have this conviction.

56:45

It may not be right away But there's a certain point to like you have to get rid of all our idols Will Who's also part of apology at church?

56:54

There's a video of him back at our man camp where he had? Handwritten tarot cards that he had and he threw them into the fire, you know as a public, you know pronounce or just renunciation of You know his time his commitment to when he was in the occult and now being in Christ But yeah, tell us just about that.

57:11

You listen to rain you got rid of a lot of your stuff. Tell us about that Yeah, I had heard Doreen's Testimony and I remember thinking she was really

57:21

Over the line and really harsh about everything I had that experience because I wasn't convicted of any of it yet and so I think it's interesting because I know you know,

57:32

I saw on the on the comments on the Teresa Gentry interview that you did that a number of people kind of railed against her on on different things and And it's just it's it's easy to do, you know

57:44

And even I've spoken pretty strongly against yoga and certain energy healing modalities in this interview and I imagine, you know,

57:52

I'll get some flack for that, but it's yeah It was at a point when

57:58

I was leaving North Carolina and I had start I was getting ready to move back here and I had started calling my

58:05

Bookshelf, you know, and I'm like, I can't keep these tarot cards or all of these New Age books

58:11

Or the Buddha statues or the crystals or the sage bundles or the you know, all of it and I Was really torn up about what to do about it.

58:22

I had a box of it actually for a while that I intended to donate and I just kept

58:31

Thinking back to what Doreen had said and she really she calls people to burn her stuff

58:39

Or or at a minimum throw it away and I actually know I met somebody

58:46

At a conference last week and they were saying they just anytime they see any of her stuff out in public

58:52

Like a thrift store. They buy it and take it home and burn it. I said, oh she would be so happy about that To know that but she so that was really influential and so I didn't feel like I had a safe place to Have a bonfire.

59:09

So I just took them in and put them in a trash dumpster And then anything that was of the natural world

59:19

I went ahead and threw in the river there in in Morganton, North Carolina So so all the crystals and all of that stuff because it felt

59:26

I don't know It just felt weird to throw them in the garbage I was like you can just go back to the dirt from where you came

59:32

But the last thing I did was I had a I had a crystal that I wore around my neck and The problem with these things is it's like they become you really do idolize them

59:42

And so when I was out if I walked alone at night and got scared You know that somebody might be following me or something like that I would think it's okay because I have my crystal on I'm fully protected

59:56

I might even say a small prayer or something to it You know And so when I when

01:00:02

I stood on the bank of the river and went to throw this crystal that had been around my neck for years

01:00:07

Into the river. I you know I felt really ready to do it and I threw it and I felt my body it didn't physically move

01:00:15

But I felt like my body tried to leap after it. It just was this moment of like no

01:00:21

You know and then it plunked into the water and I thought Okay But there was just this like it had such a hold on me, you know

01:00:31

And I was having this conversation With my sister about things like that and how it's almost like You know, we were talking about the

01:00:38

Lord of the Rings and how I don't know these cultural references But it was like, you know, my precious like it's it's like that.

01:00:44

Yeah, you just have this moment where you're like My actual power but like there's something tied up in it.

01:00:50

Yeah, and that's the that's the heart that's the problem with it you know because I think crystals in and of themselves are there were pretty rocks, but people put a lot of People put a lot of meaning on to them and they become idols

01:01:05

Yeah, so just in summary as we're kind of wrapping up here. I mean, this is You really we've kind of gone through it like a linear

01:01:13

We've got through like almost like a linear timeline of you know, your life like the last like 20 years

01:01:19

You know starting where you're you're desperate looking for answers in response to the trauma of your of the divorce that you went through Which anyone who goes through that?

01:01:28

I mean, we're only human that that anyone's gone through that it has to be devastating and then you know You're just going from different healing modality to healing modality

01:01:36

Just continue going on and on and on If you're just if you were just to say like all of your life and I feel like I've asked this question before like Every every aspect of your spiritual resume that you have on here.

01:01:50

Like how much of how much does that matter now? not at all,

01:01:56

I mean aside to just Humble me at the glory of God That he pulled me out of that and to encourage me that when

01:02:05

I see other people who are super lost in it that they Nobody's beyond his reach

01:02:10

He can he can just pluck us out of that and bring us into the actual truth and the light and So but aside from that, you know

01:02:19

I mean in that in that trash heap there was a moment where I picked up the specific box and it had all of my

01:02:25

Certificates and all of the manuals and and everything for all of the trainings I had gone through and it it represented tens of thousands of dollars worth of trainings, you know and and and it just It's it's nothing, you know other than Just an ability to see the grace of God that yeah, he called me out of it

01:02:48

And how would you sum up especially like just the work in person Jesus and who he is in?

01:02:55

comparison to all the new age spirituality now having access to the Father through Christ and understanding the role the true reality of The salvation that you have if you could sum that up as far as like that in Comparison to all of that is

01:03:09

Jeff would say scuba like how much how would you describe that for yourself personally? it's

01:03:15

It's complete relief. It's it's It's that piece the you know passes all understanding like that ability to just sit in In truth and not

01:03:28

I don't I don't seek anymore. What would I be seeking after? I know the answer

01:03:33

I know the way I know I know the light. I it's just a matter of like Wanting to understand more so I'll read books just to scratch the surface of the incomprehensibility of God but I don't

01:03:48

It's never like oh this next thing is gonna really, you know, get me closer like get me closer to what

01:03:56

I I have I have Everlasting life and salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

01:04:02

Like what more could I need? you know, that's it's it's the sum total answer and I it it there's a there's so much gratitude and relief and joy and celebration

01:04:15

Inside me and then there's also just seeing the people that I love that are still on this never -ending carousel or the parking lot at the airport up and up and up and up and up and never gonna get there and It's just you know, that part is sad that part is that part is

01:04:33

Heartbreaking at times to watch that that happens, you know and and that not you know

01:04:40

We didn't we didn't all get plucked out at the same time and brought brought to sit in front of him.

01:04:45

But hmm. Yeah No, I appreciate so much sharing that Yeah I think really what you're articulating true is like our hope too is that Putting out this content is that we show people who either are in the new age maybe the former newagers and hearing a story like yours is gonna be just encouraging because a lot of times people will come out of the new age and it feels almost like very like a very isolated process because there is so much community in that world and Then when you come to know

01:05:13

Christ, it's like you feel like you're I'm the only one Who's going through this that feels almost like I'm going crazy.

01:05:19

You're crazy. Yeah, I'm gonna say that and so yeah So being able to hear and having people able to hear this test

01:05:24

I'm sure is encouragement for them But also for anyone maybe they've made to this podcast and maybe they're into these practice in practice

01:05:32

Maybe they'll see that as well to understanding the reality of the gospel Like maybe they're going from there.

01:05:38

They're in there in your spot they're going they're bouncing from practice to practice the healing modality to healing modality either being on the receiving end or trying to become a

01:05:46

Healer not realizing that the ultimate healer they need is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Andrew do you have any last thoughts as we wrap up here?

01:05:55

Yeah I just kind of want to read a section of scripture because I think it really speaks to The situation of amber right like almost how

01:06:01

Paul describes himself in Philippians 3 is like he was the Pharisee of Pharisees Right. It's like almost at this one point in time in your life

01:06:07

You are the the New Ager of New Ager, you know But this is what Paul says and I think it'll be very encouraging for you as well

01:06:14

Amber near the end of this section of scripture, but listen to what Paul says He says if anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh

01:06:21

I have more circumcised on the eighth day of the people of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin a Hebrew of Hebrews as the law of Pharisee as To zeal a persecutor of the church as to righteousness under the law blameless

01:06:31

But whatever game up gain I had I counted as lost for the sake of Christ Indeed, I count everything as lost because of the surpassing worth of knowing

01:06:39

Christ Jesus my lord for his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may

01:06:45

Gain Christ and be found in him not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law Right or any of these

01:06:50

New Age practices but that which comes through faith in Christ the righteousness from God that depends on faith that I may know him and the power of His resurrection and may share his sufferings becoming like him in his death that by any means possible

01:07:02

I may attain the resurrection from the dead and this is this is right here This is so good Not that I've already obtained this or I'm already perfect But I press on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me his own brothers

01:07:13

I do not consider that I have made it my own but one thing I do Forgetting what lies behind in Straining forward to lies ahead to what lies ahead

01:07:22

I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus let those of us who are mature think this way and if and and if in anything you think otherwise

01:07:30

God reveal that also to You only let us hold true to what we have obtained Like even says in Ephesians chapter 1 that the

01:07:36

Holy Spirit is our seal of the inheritance that we have to come that you are Press -forward right not dwelling on what lies behind in your past and the experiences that you had amber

01:07:46

But guess what? You have salvation and when you die, you're going to meet Christ, right that um

01:07:51

The Ascension has occurred through the blood of Jesus Christ now has been given to you You're off the carousel and it could only be obtained through the

01:07:59

God man Jesus Christ who completed all the works of righteousness and died on the death for us

01:08:05

You're there you press forward and you you obtain the inheritance that is to come and it's a praise

01:08:10

Jesus right and now, you know him, you know him because he first loved you and it's in it's just amazing.

01:08:17

Hmm All right. Well, uh, that's a good way to wrap it up Andrew and I just I love like watching you respond like just React to like him like saying all that it just it's just so Demonstrative all the work that the

01:08:31

Lord has done your life and I'm just excited to see and there he is in which you grow Now as well, too So, yeah, it's just praise

01:08:37

God for saving you and and thank you so much for coming on and really sharing with us your story Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

01:08:43

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01:08:50

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01:08:56

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01:09:05

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