Tom and Jennifer Buck Interview

Justin Peters

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00:05

Hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today.

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I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast I had the privilege of interviewing

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Tom and Jennifer Buck. Tom is the pastor of First Baptist Church, Lindale, Texas and some of you most of you probably watching this channel, you're at least somewhat familiar with the

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Controversy that has been swirling around Tom and Jennifer Buck this rough draft of this letter that was leaked in the

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SBC and all that So if you've kind of heard of some of that if you're not sure exactly what is going on I would encourage you to well, you can google it and read about it

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But also the first place I would like you to go to is in the description down below I have provided a link to an article that Jennifer wrote on the

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G3 website this was published back in April a few months ago a couple months ago and So read that and that will give you kind of some background information but this this rough draft that she wrote was leaked and it was leaked with the purpose of doing damage to Tom's reputation and I was very just a

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Really dark thing that happened and quite honestly my words

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Speaking for them, but quite honestly reprehensible what was done to Tom and Jennifer Buck. So I wanted you to hear from them

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Primary source and I think this interview will be an encouragement to you. So please do watch it all the way through At the very end of it.

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I will have a couple of closing thoughts a couple of important points I think that should be made and so do watch it all the way through out

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Let me say this. You'll probably notice that the audio levels are a bit uneven Jennifer's audio is a bit low and I think it's because she was a little bit further away from the microphone

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So I did my best and post edit to to go through and try to up her volume levels but I am no sound engineer that is for sure and My youtube channel.

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Well, if you're watching my youtube channel, you ain't this ain't Hollywood You're not watching my channel for special effects.

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So anyway, I think I think you can grin and bear it So without any further delay Here is

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Tom and Jennifer Well Tom and Jennifer. It is such a pleasure to have you on my youtube channel

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And thank you so very much for coming on Tom this is a result of you reaching out to me a few weeks ago and just talking about how you and Jennifer would like an opportunity to kind of give your side of the story of all this that's garnered so much attention and So, yeah,

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I want to give you this opportunity and tell us a little bit about I guess maybe just briefly how this became such a

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Such a big story and the publicity that it garnered Well, Jennifer's story got leaked her a rough draft that she had written about the early years of our marriage

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It's kind of a long story and it would take up probably more time than what we desired to do regarding Talking about our marriage and what

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God did to heal it And most of the people a lot of people know already about that, but essentially

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What occurred was? Jennifer and I had mainly Jennifer had about four years ago

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I was a part of her and she was walking through that was writing out the rough draft of What we had experienced in our first few years of marriage we have been married 35 years and Coming up next month and we have always talked about our story regarding the

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Difficulties that we had in the first few years of our marriage mainly in order to bring encouragement to the church.

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We share in counseling sessions When we talk with you know couples that are struggling in their marriage

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Because we know that it gives them hope that if God can do what he did in our relationship in their marriage

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That he can do the same thing for them if they'll submit themselves to the gospel of Jesus Christ Because often like with us mainly with me.

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I didn't I knew what the gospel was I understood what God what God wanted marriage to be, but I didn't know how to live that out.

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I didn't know how to overcome issues in my own life that I had with Anger from things that happened to me in the past and and so forth and it and it spilled over into our marriage

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I just didn't know how to deal with that and I find that that's a lot of times what's happening in in young married couples

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And sometimes even couples have been married longer than that They don't know how to apply the gospel, but we had never shared it on a broader scale and so four years ago

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We were doing thinking about sharing that Jennifer specifically because the me to movement church to movement was at foot

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So maybe you could just explain for a second why you had a desire to share it on a broader scale Because I kept seeing a lot of the voices that were talking

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Basically, they were they were just stuck in the abuse. They were in there was no reconciliation There was no hope being given for a marriage to be redeemed for somebody to change in Christ There was no instruction on how to apply the gospel those things were being lost in a very public and a

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Topic that was much at the forefront even within a lot of the circles of the church that we were seeing and that Was that saddened me because I know firsthand that the gospel can change and I know firsthand

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We've learned how to apply the gospel and I didn't want that to be lost

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Yeah, so we shared that obviously I'd share I've shared it from the pulpit Story I've talked about how that I was controlling and and how that I was

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I Would say I probably used the word abusive with my language I was not kind in the way

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I spoke to my that wasn't every second of every day But it certainly was part of a main part of what our marriage was early on and not to interrupt but just you know

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Yeah, just to set the scene for those who are not as familiar Maybe watching this and hearing of it for the first time this all came about as Jennifer you wrote a rough draft talking about the early years of your marriage

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And so when we say the early years we're talking about Yeah, 35 years ago and and this at the time

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Tom you were not you were not a pastor But you were a seminary student, correct? I was seminary student when we came to that point

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I'd served as a worked in youth and things of that nature, but I was not senior pastor yet Yeah, and so I was at seminary when this all came to a head and when you know things were getting pretty rough

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To one degree or another and but since we'd share that in those other settings Jennifer had never put it in writing

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Right and and and you know when you're go out into public consumption You want because you don't have the ability to to explain things like we're going to on this video

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You know, you're you just got it there in cold black and white, right? Right, and so she was looking for somebody to help her edit that and and give her feedback

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And we reached out to someone for that Jennifer and I both did that's all we had asked for And it's a long story of why it never got even into a blog but at the end we had even forgotten about it, but then it resurfaced when somebody took her story and Was going to try to use that or was using it as a means by which to retaliate against me because they did not like some of the things that I was doing in the

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Southern Baptist Convention and And no need to get into all that But that's how her story came out.

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And unfortunately because of how it came out it It really was robbing us of the opportunity of sharing all that God had done.

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Our story has always been received as hopeful Gospel centered people in the church thankful that we were willing to be vulnerable and willing to be transparent about Their marriage to help other people in the first draft.

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I wrote it in a particular way so that it could be Clear to whoever was helping me fashion it that I knew

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I was talking about and I wouldn't just be disregarded So I put things in there that I didn't necessarily want to be stated that way publicly but I needed them to have a background and understanding to help me know how to translate it without Having the iPad right now in in my rough draft.

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I'd say a third of it was Discussing the issues and then two -thirds of it was

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God's redemptive work. The majority of it was what I did But they have disregarded that.

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Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, and Tom you sent me the rough draft I've read it and and it is a beautiful story of how

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God has worked in your marriage and just to just to kind of clear up so people don't get the

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The way this has been used By some to try to hurt you both of you that Tom you were

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Abusive and so let if I may kind of delve in here a little bit What did that quote -unquote abuse

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Look like now, I know because I've read the rough draft, but I want to hear from y 'all. So Did this ever come to like physical abuse or what?

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What kind of abuse are we talking about? Well, I think it'd probably good for us just kind of talk to how it led up to that, you know

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When when there was a point in time that I slapped Jennifer's arm her wrist I think they're probably good to not because that's kind of turning point of where we realize

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Yeah got to deal with something. So maybe you could just talk about what it was like early early on in our marriage and and Because it was verbal Tearing down verbally.

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So go ahead and just Was It took a long time, you know retrospect you see things differently

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I Realized later that Tom was very insecure in his leadership. And so anything that I said, well not anything

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But a lot of things that I said things that I differed with him on had a different opinion on he took that as a threat and Because he didn't know how to Process that so he would get very defensive

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And in that defensiveness if I kept trying to push my my point he would get very upset over that and I don't remember.

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I don't remember any calling of names. I don't remember that type

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Just very loud very strong. You shouldn't think that way you need to think this way

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Well, I would say certain things like well, that's stupid. Well, yeah, that's you know, and It was never you're stupid, but my ideas were in court.

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Yeah, and and just demeaning, you know, so demeaning language Controlling so to the point of like if we were in the car and I couldn't touch the air -conditioner.

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Yeah, no And if she and I'd be like, why are you you know,

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I wouldn't I'd push her hand away at that point don't don't be The stations that I wanted on it's on let me put the do not disturb on here

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So I was you know I was frustrated that she whenever she tried to contradict me in any way or Anything that I felt that I should be in control of so I'm trying to put this do not disturb on someone do that real

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Quick or that'll be Dean the rest of the time So And there was money control.

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I didn't if he wanted to take me out and buy me clothes That was great and he did occasionally

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But I did not just say oh, I'm gonna go get a shirt or I'm gonna go get this or that It was it was very much controlled on those areas he was good and lavishing those things, but I did not

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I Did feel that I had no say if I felt I needed something that he didn't think

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I needed Then I wasn't gonna get it. So that was an issue Even to the point where you know, and I didn't even realize how bad this was for Jennifer at the time, but Because I've always had to struggle with dieting and stuff like that We didn't have a lot of money so I would say hey we got to eat we got to eat this certain kind of food because that's what

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I need to be able to eat to be able to to maintain where I need to be and just with the stress of You know constantly.

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I think you probably It was on guard. Oh, yeah on guard all the time you felt demeaned the little

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So she had that stress and then on top of that not being able to eat the kind of food She needs to eat because I mean all this diet food.

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We could afford anything else. She got down to Lost weight through the process of that and that's in her in her in the rough draft as well.

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Yeah And So then but then it came to the point when we realized and I think you know

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Jennifer multiple times tried to appeal to me To say to help me see how she is feeling regarding these things

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Even tried to appeal for me to talk to somebody in the process of that but I'm sure it wasn't always very nicely.

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Well But There was a point in time where you can tell the part with the

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Coke can type thing. This is where it came to point. We've got to get help. Okay. Yeah we actually had friends over there was somebody at the house and I just took a coke can and Put it on the back of his neck and he whirled around in anger and grabbed my wrist and slapped my hand

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I don't think it bruised. I don't remember that. It was embarrassing and it was shocking. It was demeaning

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It was more demeaning than then Almost like I would do it like you do a child

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Yes, now I remember seeing the shock in his own eyes, but I was so angry at that point.

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I didn't care Although I think we both realized I knew that that could persist because I I was learning enough to know

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That sin never stays in the same place. It keeps progressing. It keeps moving forward

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I knew we made another progression and that that was not going to stop if something didn't intervene

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Yeah, and like she said we had friends there that wasn't in the story There but it wasn't you know

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If it had been something the way some people tried to portray it some kind of violent slap or across the face or something that nature uh, those individuals would certainly

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Yeah Well, they were standing there. So it was like I said, it was demeaning. It was wrong. It was sinful. It was ungodly.

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It was Not the way you treat your wife as in a gentle as a gentle Godly vessel that she is.

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Yeah, and that's when I realized that's why there was shock in my eyes that if my Because I'd never touched her before in any way negatively and i'm like if I can do that I could possibly do worse

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And so had you been had you started meeting with dotty at that time? I can't remember if you had or not.

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I yes Yes, I was already meeting with dotty which is I think what helped Keep me steady through the whole process.

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I was already meeting with her. We were she was already Had already been teaching me how to pray for time

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This is the older lady that you and one of the things she she anytime

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I would I would just tell her about what was going on I wasn't complaining about him because I was still a little bit in the fog.

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I think of understanding what was going on but She'd say, you know, i'm sure tom doesn't want to teach treat you that way.

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I know he loves you We just need to pray for him and that Was what the lord used to open my eyes to realize there really is an issue here

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But it was safeguarded around I need to pray for him And we would pray for him and I would pray for him and the lord used that to protect

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My understanding of what was going on To seek help instead of just running away

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Yeah Yeah, and then it was after that happened with the slap on the wrist that I Realized it was through the process of that that I said i'm gonna meet with bob who was dotty's husband and So it you know, it was it was a good long road after that, you know year or so uh of counseling and Being having them minister to us and to help me learn how to be the man that god has called me to be

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And I still remember the first time that we talked with bob that he said that when

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When we probably meet together a year and he said when we're at the end of this He said you all I believe by the power of the gospel and the grace of god

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You'll have a marriage beyond your dreams. Is that how you said that? And jennifer literally laughed out loud

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Oh, really? In disbelief and that pierced me to the heart. Oh, wow

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Because I I realized how much i'd hurt jennifer Wow, and how wounded she really was not physically but emotionally

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And I think she would tell you that it was all the all the other things Were far more damaging than that slap on the wrist that day

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Uh in the sense of just emotional Things she had to walk through Um, and so we tell this story and we want you know, because we get to the hope of the gospel through that but jennifer wanted

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You wanted people to know that it wasn't a cake walk Because so many of you know, so many of those who have gone through They call themselves survivors and you never called yourself that terminology

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Use that terminology for yourself but They you know They have a hard time.

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I think believing and jennifer didn't want them to not believe That we went through a real struggle. This was not some

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Oh, we had some you know Spats here and there like a lot of young married couples do we went for a really a period of struggle and I didn't you know,

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I I didn't realize how much anger I had in me And you don't know those things before you get married. You're not putting those positions

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You don't know how you're going to respond. You don't know how you're going to deal with things until you're in the circumstance, right?

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I think a lot of marriages go through that. I don't think we're unique right and and something that Probably a lot of people don't realize is that both of you

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Have had some abuse in your in your past before y 'all ever got married and and tom you you as well

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I mean that well, my yeah, mine mine resulted in producing anger in me. Yeah, and uh the things that I went through um

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That doesn't excuse what I did, you know, there's no excuse for that but that's part of what um helps people understand and that you know, we bring baggage into into our marriages into relationships

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Yeah And if it were not for the gospel Changing and transforming us.

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I would have lost my marriage Yeah, you know that People say, you know, you could have lost your ministry

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Yeah, I think I would have never been in ministry, but there's something more important than ministry and that is my marriage

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Because if I can't leave my home, well, I can't leave the church, right? That's right. Yeah Um had

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I been a pastor when all this was going on I would have needed to step away for sure Yeah, if this did not get rectified and resolved in a way that's

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That honors the lord of the gospel I wouldn't be be qualified But the qualifications that we see in scripture are not that one has always perfectly

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Ruled their household, but they go into that position that they're they're they're Leading in such a way that is godly

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And that's how god has used us to be able to help other families other marriages to say look if god did that with us

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He could do that with you. Absolutely absolutely, what gets lost is the

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So many people look at things and say, okay. Well i'm going to trust god. So make my marriage better And then it doesn't happen

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The whole process of walking through what we did that year with bob and even the years after because you know

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It didn't get perfect overnight It's learning to walk in dependence on the lord. It's learning to seek him.

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It's learning to trust him it's learning to recognize that This situation that i'm in the circumstances that I am in God has allowed me to be in therefore.

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It's his will for me Therefore he will make a way for me to walk through it in obedience to him now that may look somewhat different in different situations

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But the the purpose is to learn to grow and walk in obedience and dependence on the lord

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And that message is lost because we want a quick fix. We want it to be better overnight

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I want him to be changed now. I want me to be changed now so we can all be happy and that's not that's not how god works and that's what i'm seeing in the the the arena of the world today how they're talking about it, it's just Whatever escape you can find that gives you the quick fix.

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That's where you go and that is not the message of the gospel Yeah, amen And in reading your rough draft,

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I mean that that is absolutely the the emphasis of it is the power of the gospel the beautiful redemptive work of the gospel not only in our initial redemption, you know to salvation but our but our sanctification in that and both of you have have been sanctified through this and You know

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Jennifer you even quote romans 8 28 in your rough draft And it's not that what the two of you went through in your first few years of marriage

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It's not that that was in and of itself a good thing right because it wasn't but Romans 8 28 doesn't say that all things are good

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It says that god works all things together for the good even those things that are in and of themselves are not good and So that's the that's the beautiful part about this is how god has used those things

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To bring you to the to the point where you are today and and you can help others who have been through similar things going through similar things and unfortunately that has been lost and uh

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And clouded in all of the you know, the controversy and how this came about Yeah, I mean there is no doubt that had

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I continued in the pattern that I was in that jennifer I think would have escalated to the point that she couldn't have lived in that name longer

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In fact, she knew she could do that and I think I told you That we were on a time frame.

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Yeah, I think I confronted you it was it was It was almost as if when we first got married.

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I was I was very insecure. I was very weak. I I couldn't Battle his strength which was a good thing because if I had we would have never gotten beyond it

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But like the lord brought me through with with uh with dotty working with me and growing spiritually

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I came to a point where I Was able to stand up and say this is going to stop Or i'm going to leave we have this long to figure it out

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And but the lord had been working at him That he was ready to hear it. It just all worked together perfectly in the timing and the lord had in place

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Bob to be able to come in and start working with us because that's we immediately started with bob after that Yeah, I think that's one of the important things in all this is we have never counseled and we disagree with those who say oh, you just go, you know, if you're if you're in danger or Uh, a wife is supposed to just keep going back and living in something that is not in any way reflecting

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What scripture says of how a marriage should be we have never counseled anybody. Oh, you just keep going back home and and And take whatever is dished out

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Dottie didn't talk that way to jennifer But we also don't look at people and say well, you know what?

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Uh, you probably just need to leave you probably need to get a divorce Uh, you know, whatever it may be I don't even understand christians that begin at that point um

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But if we would if we would allow the word of god to govern What we do and how we respond my wife confronted me in my sin

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Yeah my wife reached out To individuals who were willing to help confront me and help me

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Come to the point of seeing the need that for the help that I got I was repentant of those things um

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Jennifer was also was willing we both were to do what scripture says get the log out of your own eyes She looked at her sin as well.

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That was being brought to the marriage, which was one of the hardest things I think that was probably one of the hardest things to do because when

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I was faced with Well, jennifer you've responded this way or this is what you've been doing it was hard to accept that because He was the bigger problem

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And that was very humbling to be able to have to say, you know what you're right. I'm not

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I can't be completely excused. There are things that I did that that perpetuated things or or whatever

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Because we're in these situations It brings out your own sin So that god can deal with you to be able to make me whole

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And to make him whole and I think that's abuse survivors probably deal with that That's one of the hardest things they have to face

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Is that this is revealing my own sin, maybe not sin in that situation But it's revealing my own sin and how

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I respond to it how I think about it how I process it, whatever I'm, not without my own sin.

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Yeah Yeah, and that's an important point and something that needs to be stressed I think that Obviously none of us no one in their right mind would condone any kind of abuse

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But those who are on the receiving end of that Just because they're on the receiving end of it does not mean that they do not have their own sin issues with which to deal so and jennifer,

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I love the your story about The lady that I now know is named dottie. I don't think you named her in your rough draft but but it's a beautiful picture of Titus 2, right?

27:12

older women teaching the younger women and um, you know for we're all complementarians all three of us here and say that oh women can't teach in church well they

27:24

They do some women do have the gift of teaching but it's it's to be used in a proper way as dottie used her gift

27:32

With you and her husband. I don't remember. What was his name? Bob Bob, you know used his with you tom.

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So, um, I think that's a Uh as I was reading your rough draft titus 2 just kept popping in my mind.

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So, oh, that's really cool Yeah, we couldn't have made it without that couple. Uh, You know,

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I mean, you know what I mean by that god obviously would have he used But in his providence, yeah in god's providence.

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He used that couple. That's we couldn't have That god knew that's what we needed uh, god knew that he had a plan for using us in ministry and Again, we've told this story over to you may want to press in on some of the issues we'd be glad to do that, but we've told this story over and over again and We have never whether it be in private counseling or from the pulpit when i've talked about it

28:24

Uh have never encountered people Being repulsed by our story or thinking of me in a some type of a an an ogre, you know abuser type way because people see me they know me they say in fact when the

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One of the most meaningful things that was said to me through all of this when jennifer put her g3 uh article up on g3

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Um is I got a direct message From voddie bockham

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And he said you don't resemble that man in the least Amen amen

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And that I I can't i've never talked about it read it or talked about it without it overwhelming me because That's what it should be.

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Amen. All of us should have stories That Of our sin in the past that if we told

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And we're now true christian that people would say I have no idea who that person is Have you been around?

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And the heart one of the hardest things about all this Is not that our story has been told not about the slap on the wrist not about the

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Abusive words I used with my wife. Those are not the things that caused me to hurt through this

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It's that there are people particularly within the so -called survivor community

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Who are choosing? To want me to look like today

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What I looked like 30 some years ago. Yeah, and then what they want that to be who I am now, right?

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And I I really wonder whether some of these people even know the gospel because paul said

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Some this is what you once were That's right The gospel does not continue to define us

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By what we once were now, we need to know what we once were so we appreciate that we're no longer that Yeah, so I have no problem.

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We will continue to tell our story Yeah, this is And that that was another thing

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I can't tell you the number of people that texted me Uh from back in florida said oh you've told this story all the time

30:49

Uh, remember you tell it this is nothing new. I I talked with nate pickawicks Uh who messaged me or and he said you told me this when we were in baltimore

30:59

Uh, we'd seen each other there. I didn't even remember telling him Yeah, the point is we've told this story so many times

31:06

Right people. We don't even remember that we've told that are not shocked by it because they've heard it before right?

31:13

right Yeah, I was um Your comment about what votey said to you when I first heard of this when

31:19

I first read the article on g3 This was news to me and tom you and i've been friends for a number of years now

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But I I guess it's just I don't know. It's just never really come up and so I didn't know about it but when I read that i'm like That I had the same thought like this.

31:33

This is not tom. Uh, It was almost incomprehensible to me that that uh, this was even part of your background because you're not that guy anymore

31:42

I mean you've Yeah, the gospel has Sanctified you and you've progressed in sanctification over 30 years

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As you would expect Yeah, one of the most important things is not just simply that you didn't recognize that because we do know

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That people can live in secret hidden sin, right and nobody know it then it comes out What matters is is my wife knows that's not who

32:04

I am anymore and testifies to that. Yeah, and my children testify to that They were all go

32:09

I mean, what were the kids saying? I mean my adult kids even that that what's he talking about? What's what is this abuse that they're talking about?

32:17

They knew about our struggles in their marriage, but they couldn't comprehend that people were calling me an abuser. Yeah, absolutely.

32:23

Yeah Yeah You know and tom i'm so glad you just said what you did because there is no one on this planet

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Who knows us better than our spouses? No one Because we live with them, you know, there's no one who and in the very fact uh, jennifer the way you you have um

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Conducted yourself and the things that you've said and your your clear support of your husband um testifies to the to the gracious work of christ in your lives um, and it

32:58

Tom you could not Be a pastor If you did not have the support

33:04

Of jennifer. I know i'm I mean i'm not a pastor, but i'm in ministry. I'm an evangelist I could not in a million years dream of being

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In any kind of ministry if I did not know that kathy Loves me

33:19

And supports me and respects me if I didn't have the support and respect of my wife Oh, man, i'd shut this thing down so fast and i'd go work at burger king

33:30

Mm -hmm, but the the very fact that jennifer has stood with you. Um So faithfully,

33:37

I mean it testifies to the To the fact that you're a different guy than you were 30 years ago

33:42

And he's a good leader and those that the I gave him leadership

33:47

Quality and strength now when we were first married He didn't know how to use that But god used that process to hone him and to teach him and to grow him and to make him into the leader

33:57

He is today. I would never have been able to walk through this As well as we have i'm not i'm, not

34:05

Devastated i'm not Incapable i'm not um so overwhelmed for it from it

34:12

Can't function because of his leadership And because of what god has developed in him and how he's helped me walk through this

34:19

And I have the confidence that he's not going to let me Say the wrong thing out in public.

34:25

He's going to correct me on that not harshly But just you know, jen, is that the best way to handle this? Maybe you should do it this way

34:30

He helps me with that and he doesn't um Yell at me if I get upset but he corrects my mindset of well

34:39

This is where bitterness can come in. We have to be careful on how we think about these things I appreciate that protection

34:46

That he's given me as we walk through this and I know i'm strong enough to fight the battles that need to be fought

34:53

I don't have to feel like he's just going to sit back and passively let it all fly by He's he's engaging and dealing with it and I have immense respect for that Yeah Amen.

35:05

Amen. That's the beauty of marriage. That's the way it's supposed to work and and um, and and two as complementarians uh, we affirm that as men and women we are of equal value before god, we just do have different roles, but But jennifer you are indwelt by the same holy spirit who indwells your husband and and god used you in confronting tom along with bob as well, but but you primarily and so You confronted him in a godly way and in truth

35:37

Uh, kathy is indwelt by the same holy spirit indwells me. So as complementarians, we're not saying that uh as men and women we cannot correct each other and confront each other's sins

35:49

So this is this is the way it's supposed to work in a in a christian marriage let him know his sin all the time

35:57

Yeah, once a month once a month, that's not bad Yeah, all right

36:05

If I can add one thing I want to go back to dotty for just a second because one of the things dotty did is dotty always took me to scripture

36:13

Dotty taught me the word of god. She taught me the concept of god's grace who god was

36:18

Why he's trustworthy and how to submit to him and how to walk in obedience to him

36:24

Those are not things that come natural to us. We have to be taught those things. She never let me wallow.

36:30

She never um, she never Validated incorrect thinking she might say

36:37

I understand how you feel that way, but how do we filter this through scripture? And that that was what really has shaped my entire adult life since then in Thinking through things in a scriptural way and it's it's given me the tools to teach other ladies.

36:55

It's given me the tools Women, so if we had not gone through that I wouldn't have that I would be much less

37:06

Equipped To help other women function so I have no regrets for that and she has done a

37:13

Discipleship material i'm going to put a plug in it's called grace duration You can find it at grace duration .org

37:19

And it's just the simple truths of god's grace That are simple but profound and you walk away going

37:26

I knew that but I didn't know that I didn't know what it looked like and how to live right yeah,

37:33

I think one of the things that's interesting and Sad uh that That many of those who are in again, what's the the so -called survivor community are actually afraid of our story

37:46

Now here's what I mean by that Um, one is we were told that's great for you all

37:52

But we're you know If your story is told it might encourage some women to stay in a relationship

37:58

And just continue to take the abuse. Okay. That's one of the things we've been told We were told by another

38:04

Person in the southern raps convention who's a part of this whole me too church to movement That jennifer got bad advice from dotty because dotty should have told her to leave me

38:14

Seriously, he's one of the prominent names Of the individuals in the sbc right now regarding me too

38:21

Even even knowing everything and seeing where y 'all are now. He said that jennifer got bad advice unbelievable and so When I say they're afraid of her story, they're afraid that our story is going to lead to somebody can you know staying in a situation where they get abused worse or something of that nature occurs because You know kind of like the the the page patterson story where they tried you know, they said that page had said told a woman just go back and You may have to take a beating or something.

38:48

I don't know that page said that i'm just saying what they claim But he said yeah, right. I wouldn't say that to anybody jennifer wouldn't say that to anybody

38:54

But I also nor but I also i'm not going to sit down with a couple and say I always ask you feel safe You know, is there any reason for you to feel unsafe if there is then we need to talk about that and take action but You know marriage is going to because you have two centers living together, right?

39:14

Is going to lead to conflict now, it shouldn't lead to the conflict necessarily that we had but whatever conflict you're having

39:21

God means for this to be used with two christians for good and the gospel can overcome this

39:27

And you need to to have two mature godly people that can help you walk through this so if you go to I know for sure that If jennifer had said hey, you know i'm at home and tom's slapping me around dot.

39:41

He's not was not going to say Live with that nor would I? Yeah, but It's almost like that.

39:48

They don't want stories to be Ending with gospel. Hope they're they've come to a place where because they're so afraid of somebody

39:59

Staying and being abused in a wrong situation if they've almost turned this corridor to where as a believer as a person

40:06

You can't suffer on any level You can't endure anything If anything is uncomfortable, you must flee which brings its own

40:16

Level of suffering and its own level of difficulty, but they're much more comfortable with that There's no perseverance.

40:24

There's no Understanding of seeking the lord and when we tell someone to Wait on the lord and to seek on the lord

40:34

That's not saying like he said you stay there and be allow yourself to be beat But it is seeking the lord of when do

40:40

I need to leave or do I need to stay? How do I stay how do

40:45

I think through this how do I think biblically it's they're afraid of those conversations

40:52

Scripture is replete with as believers. We are going to go through suffering. There's gonna be difficult time

40:58

We live in a sinful world, right? Right there that is almost being ignored and if you are in any suffering you are to flee

41:07

Immediately and that is not where the gospel calls us to and I understand they're trying to protect a certain level

41:13

But they've reduced that level down so low That it's almost as if oh,

41:19

I just don't like the way he looked at me So I think i'm just gonna leave it's it's that easy now to claim abuse and to just run away yeah, the sad reality is and I believe this to be the case that had had jennifer left me and had she if she had a story of tom was a a pastor who

41:37

Uh, you know was abusive in his language to me and and all of these other things She would be platformed in the sbc in a heartbeat to tell her story

41:46

Because that's what it's become Yeah We don't let's not god forbid We take time to have a couple come up on stage and talk about how god redeemed that because that's not where we are

41:56

In the church to movement because that's not something you lament. That's something you rejoice in of what god did

42:02

So the way to get a platform in the sbc right now Is to have a horrible story and some people do and i'm not saying they should not be told

42:11

But that's the only thing that wants to be said at this point Yeah, y 'all weren't exactly given a platform at the sbc convention a couple weeks ago.

42:19

Where are you? Well, we were given the right boot of fellowships On the way out but you know, it was is it we you know

42:27

We were we had some down points down times through all this and one day um, dr MacArthur called us and I was in my office time and jennifer happened to be in there when he called and we talked and And you know, we were just you know

42:41

Even like what people were saying regarding our marriage and you know whether how this paints me as a pastor and so forth and Dr.

42:49

MacArthur said, uh, so how many years have y 'all been married? And I said 35 years. He said well,

42:55

I think it's working out pretty good So it used to be he said it was just the first few years

43:01

Thank god that you know that 35 years you've been together. So yeah. Yeah. Amen. That's cool

43:07

I didn't know he had called y 'all. That's cool. I'm not surprised And yeah, I think you're right

43:12

I think some people and I think there may be another wrinkle to this and y 'all can correct me if you think I need Correction here and i'm not saying this is the majority but along the vein of some people

43:22

Don't want your story to be told uh, because they're afraid that some women will stay in a

43:29

Acutely abusive situation that that they need to leave um Do you think it's fair to say that?

43:36

And hopefully this would be a minority, but nonetheless I think it's out there. Do you think it would be fair to say that there are some others?

43:43

Who don't want your story to be told? Because they want a perpetual

43:53

Victimhood status me too status and they're honestly kind of uh, um antagonistic towards the gospel itself and they

44:03

Do you see what i'm saying? Yep, I do. Is that fair? It makes them confront their own motivations in what they're doing or what they have done

44:13

Yes It it's an opportunity For them to be confronted with truth and to deal with it

44:21

And they'll either choose to do that and allow the lord to do his work or they're going to dig their heels in and reject it and become more embittered and Keep separation on themselves from what the gospel has to offer for them

44:36

Yeah, we don't even really like the term survivor. We've used it and we kind of regretted it points in using it

44:42

Because it's been the means by which to communicate try to communicate. It's like trying to speak their language

44:48

So we try to speak the language of the sbc jennifer's a survivor and i'm survivor Which is technically true from the way they define things

44:56

The problem is you have to be a certain type of survivor Yeah, and and that's what you're getting at one that not has to be in fact

45:04

The bible wouldn't call us that we're overcomers is what we are, right? From the biblical language uh by the power of the gospel

45:14

Uh, we are not what we once were Not just in our justification, but even in our sanctification

45:20

Yeah, I think that there I think that some people want to live Perpetually in a status that keeps them in victimhood.

45:29

I don't know what drives that But there's no doubt that that's the case That those that are in that camp and I do believe there are some well

45:38

I'm not going to mention their names, but I believe there are some I do too would have warmly welcomed jennifer Into their circle of victimhood status and uh bitter

45:50

Rage if that's who she was they would have welcomed her in a heartbeat. Yeah Identity it's become identity, right?

45:59

Being in christ right Right, and they wouldn't have encouraged her to work through all of this in a godly way, they would just have affirmed you jennifer affirmed you in your

46:12

Perpetual victimhood status. That's what they would have wanted for you, which is a a tragedy beyond description in and of itself so Even though the things that I suffered in my past Don't factor in at all, you know

46:26

Uh in regards to under to even a moment understanding Why I may have wrestled with the anger issues that I wrestled with Yeah, so it is it's they're all over the map regarding that.

46:39

Yeah That's why it shows you that what's driving. This is not the scriptures What's driving this is the cultural movement that we have going on right now

46:48

Which plays into intersectionality and all those other things why her story of her past suffering

46:55

Validated mine isn't if we would allow the word of god to control this we were two sinners who came together and because God has designed

47:06

The the man to lead it is a spiritually dangerous thing

47:12

When you have a man in a marriage who is not mature in christ not acting maturely in christ

47:17

It doesn't maybe even know how to rightly do it. There's no doubt. It is a spiritually dangerous place to be.

47:23

Oh, yeah Why we need a church That is helping men be godly men women be godly women titus too, right?

47:32

We need that going on and we And and I think that this doesn't mean that you have to have

47:40

People that are helping in fact bob told me his story bob didn't come along saying i've been perfect my whole lifetime

47:45

And let me show you how to be perfect bob ministered to me by telling me That he was a lot like me

47:52

And how god had changed him. Yeah. Yeah, and it gave me hope

47:58

Uh, it's hard to have hope Uh when you're looking at someone who says i've always been perfect now, let me come along And tell you we are sinners who are helping one another along the way

48:11

Realizing the only person that can help us is christ He's the only perfect one

48:17

Yeah, uh, and he's given us one another to help lead us to him Yeah Amen.

48:23

Amen You know, I I can look back on my our early years

48:28

I mean kathy and i've been married 12 years, but uh, i'm not you know, i've grown a lot in 12 years and Kathy and I don't have the this we didn't have to work through the same kind of Issues that that y 'all did necessarily for one thing cripple guys don't have really lightning fast reflexes that I could turn around and slap around even if I wanted to but But uh, you know,

48:48

I had to grow. I mean my goodness who doesn't who doesn't have to grow? you know there i've always heard the first year of marriage is the hardest because you

48:57

Got so much growth to you've got so much dying to yourself to do. So, um Anyway, I praise the lord for the work that he's done in in y 'all's lives

49:06

It's a beautiful picture So we're I guess we're kind of coming to the end of the interview

49:12

Let me ask y 'all this so y 'all did an interview together or you did a video together back in april

49:18

And i'm going to blur the name out here, but I just want to read you these quotes um this this lady said

49:27

Jennifer looks frightened to me. Tom still seems abusive I'm concerned jennifer may still be being abused um

49:35

Maybe someone can get a word to jennifer to blink out an sos She looks afraid and self -protective

49:41

Jennifer, do you need it? You need to blink out an sos for us? Fine, i'm quite fine She might want to blink a few letters

49:51

Like shut up or something that nature that's been one of the hardest things is people not you're supposed to I Doesn't matter what

50:01

I say. They're not going to believe me. Yeah. Yeah, they just want to frame it in a certain way and it does not matter what

50:08

I say or do they They read anything the way that they want to and I can't Whatever.

50:13

Well, it shows you that they don't that statement in and of itself Shows you that they don't believe the gospel can change people.

50:20

That's the kind of people I was asking about They believe no, there's no way that tom could change

50:28

There's no way that god could and and and they don't a lot of them just don't like strong men period

50:35

Right, and so when they see a strong man speak if it's dr. MacArthur Uh, if it's me if it's you justin,

50:42

I mean you're you're a strong man in your leadership skills for sure Uh, you know, you may not be able to outrun me.

50:49

Uh But you you god has given you great strength. So you speak truth

50:54

And that's why when when I say something very straightforward very direct

51:00

Uh on on twitter when you say something of that nature I think they read that through the lens of this kind of angry spirited.

51:09

They think it's abusive Yeah, they think it's abusive. He's accused all the time of being abusive on twitter. He doesn't he he

51:16

Clearly speaks to what is wrong. He's not afraid to use the words to describe what is wrong

51:22

But he doesn't attack a person we've been far more I feel i've been far more abused by some of these people in Constantly going back calling him an abuser constantly saying that I said he abused me which that's not the context of the story

51:39

But that doesn't you know, they're not going to see it. Yeah, what what they want is They they they conflate or confuse

51:47

I should say strength with abuse Now granted almost all abuse real abuse if you will um sinful actions

52:00

Are committed in strong ways particularly by men to have now sometimes, you know People could be give the silent treatment to be that there's other ways to be that way

52:07

But many of them that's how they've experienced any abuse. They've had it's by some level of strength being used in ungodly ways

52:14

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that all strength in all strong words Or paul would be an abuser and some of them probably think he was

52:22

Yeah But I I just think they see they see the world through that lens and nobody has come alongside of them

52:29

To really help them heal And that's what we see through the years of helping people i've worked with people that have suffered really extreme abuse some of those sadly have not ended in in the marriage being able to Because it takes two people to be committed to repenting for a marriage.

52:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yes, not all those marriages have held together Uh, but we work even with those individuals to help them see that loss

53:00

And that pain through the lens of the gospel because the gospel will heal you the gospel will keep you from being bitter and angry uh to the point of bitterness

53:12

And I have had to wrestle with that with what we've been through in the sbc Um, we have there's no no doubt that my wife has been seriously mistreated

53:23

In this seriously mistreated by some people who are supposed to be advocates for survivors

53:31

Jennifer meets every category Every category that they use

53:38

For what makes a survivor except one? She's an overcomer

53:44

Who has not become bitter? Yeah by her experiences But the holy spirit has healed her completely to the point that she doesn't have to view the world through that lens of victimhood

53:54

Yeah, and that's the difference between jennifer buck And many of these other individuals out there.

54:01

Yeah kind of like um Daryl, harrison and virgil walker and vody balkum

54:06

Uh, they're not the right kind of black guys jennifer, you're not the right kind of um

54:13

You know abuse victim or survivor or whatever whatever word you want. You're just not the right kind and so Yeah her her name

54:22

Jennifer buck is a name that shall not be named at the southern baptist convention So I was appalled for that.

54:28

I took up offense for both of you guys and the way y 'all are treated. So Well, the lord is using that for good too and it's and it revealed a lot

54:39

And we came out that saying if the lord is using if that's all he's going to do in all this Is what did we want justice?

54:47

Yes. Has justice been served? No um But yeah on this side of attorney.

54:52

Yeah But we're going to trust that to the lord and if all that he used this for was to expose the hypocrisy

54:59

That is on clear display in the southern maps convention regarding these things And how they're using a different book to define which is not the bible

55:08

Of how they deal and handle with these things then so be it We pray there will be repentance But the the day the the days

55:17

All the bad days of the sbc are not behind them regarding these things. I would say they're just beginning

55:23

As they have created an environment in the sbc That they'll never be able to satiate the desire of the victimhood status

55:32

It will be a never ending story Of how there must be a forever groveling

55:39

When what ought to be take place and this is what jennifer and I do we we're gonna we're moving forward we have been

55:46

Trampled on by some people in the sbc, but god will deal with them and we're not going to allow that to shade how we

55:54

Move forward in our life and it's a it's a daily Struggle for me. I have to constantly keep going back to the lord and that's we're applying what

56:02

I know. I know it but my mind doesn't always want to to remain there so the constant having to confess when those things overwhelm me

56:14

And going back to what I know is the truth of scripture and asking the lord to make sure that that root of bitterness doesn't

56:21

That it's not allowed to take root that he pulls it from the root that it's gone Because I don't want to be

56:30

Like those who have treated me the way they've treated me well, I know you're the interviewer, but let me ask jennifer this because I Didn't plan to ask her this but if you were

56:39

Talking to a couple like us. They may not be going through the exact same things But they're a married couple

56:45

Maybe there's a feeling a sense of hopelessness with the wife even because I think our wives feel that quicker What would you

56:51

I mean, what would you want them to know? What would you want to say to them regarding how they need to view? their marriage and Hope for for change

57:00

I was gonna ask that question. So, okay Sorry, no, no. No, i'm glad you did.

57:05

I'm glad you did um I think

57:11

I don't know spray the moment i'm trying to think of that. I'll have to um It's not over yet And that our hope is definitely in the gospel and that the lord uses these

57:23

Circumstances to teach us how to be dependent on him and That dependence is never

57:33

It doesn't there's never a quick fix to it It is a process and but he's faithful to that process when we are faithful to yield ourselves to him

57:41

And we don't even know how to yield But we can go to the lord and say I have no idea what's going on I don't know how to do this.

57:47

I don't know where you're going to lead in this You're going to have to show me you're going to have to do this and you're going to have to teach me how to be

57:53

Dependent on you Because I can't do this. I think one of the greatest Freedoms I ever had that dotty taught me was

58:01

I'm, not designed to handle these things. The lord hasn't asked me to handle these things And she gave the illustration of a sheep.

58:08

You never see sheep with the backpack They'll fall over dead because they're not designed to bear burdens

58:14

We have a burden bear and we constantly go to him. He will bear it for us

58:20

And we have to learn what that looks like and how that works so and I would

58:26

Encourage her that she has to be full in christ. She has to be whole in him And seek after him and in doing that these other things will

58:37

There will be a way made of who to go to for help how to pray about certain things or When it's time to say

58:45

I have to separate in order for things to get better always with an eye on restoration And that's a real big question.

58:52

I don't know how to yeah well, i'm just thoughts on that I think for me too when I talk to couples that God it we we have the beautiful ability in marriage once we get to the point to realize that We operate as christians having all our needs already met

59:11

When I believe that Because I was always looking for jennifer to meet my needs and when she didn't meet my needs

59:19

Or meet up to what my expectations were I would take that out on her So if I felt my insecurities and all those things

59:26

But when I realized that I already have everything I need in christ Then she's not an idol from which i'm trying to get my need.

59:34

Yeah Yeah, I now can operate out of the fact that I already have everything I need in christ and when she

59:41

Doesn't give me what I feel I need in that moment um I I can rest in the fact that I already have it completely and it allows me to operate differently

59:51

And so I would tell the gospel is everything you need. We really believe that We believe when scripture says that everything you need for life and godliness you already have in jesus christ.

01:00:00

Amen And so many that we run into in the victimhood status are operating out of a sense of deficiency

01:00:08

Rather than the fact that they're already have everything they need in christ And so husbands are looking for I I need

01:00:14

I need to feel like somebody respects Whatever it may they feel they need and they demand their wife to give it to him or wife

01:00:20

I want a husband that gives me this when you come to the point that the gospel shows you Christ has already provided everything you need you now begin to look not at demanding something from your spouse

01:00:32

To begin to say how can I minister to her? How can I love her the way christ has loved me?

01:00:38

And in the process of that the beauty of it is as we begin to both Not look for what you can do for me. I can do for you.

01:00:44

We begin to do for one another What we were desiring. Anyway, I don't it sometimes it doesn't even make sense because explain it but it's the reality of it.

01:00:54

It's reality We would tell couples out there. There's hope Yeah, get yourself in a gospel preaching church

01:01:03

Where you can tell your real story Who on god's earth in the current climate in evangelicalism would go tell their story like we'd have

01:01:13

Because you're going to get crucified in your average environment in the church right now

01:01:19

Yeah, the church ought to be a place where you come out and share What god has done what you need help with without feeling like you're going to be crushed

01:01:28

And that's what bob and dotty did for us Amen and and this is

01:01:33

Go ahead. Go ahead. Jeff Bob and dotty would say we don't think any less of you Yeah, we'll think any less of you right walk you through this god

01:01:43

And one of the things that helped understanding too is that no matter what i'm dealing with Christ died for that He's already made a way for it.

01:01:52

He's already paid the penalty for that. So my sorrows And my sin He's died for those things because even our star what hurts us is a result of sin

01:02:01

So he's already made a payment for those things and I can go to the cross for that. Yeah. Amen Amen, and this is the importance also of having a good doctrinally sound local church

01:02:15

And and if you're if you're in a situation like this And you're going to a church that's woke

01:02:22

You're not going to get godly counsel You're not going to get biblical counsel if y 'all had been going to a woke church if woke had any been a such a

01:02:29

Been a thing back then Uh, you wouldn't be where you are today. It It would have been the whole situation would have been handled completely differently

01:02:39

If you're going to a woke church, it's bitten into social justice and all that kind of stuff and the me too and all that Well, they just slap a label on you and it's not faint

01:02:48

And it's not overcomer It's all of those other things Yeah, so yeah let me say this one last thing you can ask anything else you want to just but One of the things that everybody else everybody needs to understand out there

01:03:02

We've got to create environment in the church and if you're going to get help in your marriage You've got to come out and be transparent

01:03:08

Yeah, I think one of the greatest tools of satan is secrecy And when you're caught in secrecy

01:03:18

You cannot escape from that and you continue to convince yourself Okay, i'll eventually get over this because I think pride comes in and we're afraid to reveal

01:03:26

What our real sin struggle is? And the church has got to be a place where we can be real about the sin.

01:03:33

We're struggling with yeah As long as we're repentant About what it is and seeking true help.

01:03:40

So if you're out there and you have a marriage that's struggling right now uh Often we wait too long to get help had we waited longer

01:03:50

Uh, the secret would have been kept going and then we would have felt we need to protect the secret You need to go as soon as you can to say somebody help us

01:03:59

So that we can by god's grace be transformed and our marriage can be renewed

01:04:04

I wonder do her husband any benefit if she can holds the secret she needs to go but She needs to prayerfully go with an attitude of restoration

01:04:14

Not just going and saying my husband's doing this get help me get out yes, yeah, and there's situations, but um

01:04:22

Is a general rule She does need to be in prayer that the lord keeps her attitude right and keeps her willing to be accepting

01:04:32

Of the changes the lord does in her husband and that Yeah Yeah Right and and maybe this is a question kind of on a very practical level because I know we'll have people watching this

01:04:44

That maybe they're in similar situations as to what y 'all went through. So we touched on this earlier, but None of us would ever could counsel a woman to stay in um in a in a in a

01:04:58

Acutely abusive situation where her physical well -being is in danger uh, so she needs to Remove herself from that go to someone in the church

01:05:10

Um find a safe place to be, you know, maybe with another family in the church and live with them for a while or whatever um

01:05:16

But divorce should not be immediately like option a right,

01:05:22

I mean they're so we're not in you can You can remove yourself from a dangerous situation without divorce

01:05:35

Necessarily Right. Okay. Yes and as you said jennifer the The goal is for restoration for reconciliation for repentance um

01:05:45

So anyway, yeah, we've seen some situations where I think that for restoration to take place it was going to take some separation

01:05:53

Because it was so deep and with with some marriages. We've seen that sure but Um, so we're not even saying you just go back and tough it out

01:06:04

You have to I think that's why every situation has to be dealt with differently um

01:06:09

Sometimes that's going to be need as you said to separate sometimes that's going to be Uh, no, you don't have the ability to do that And you're not in an unsafe

01:06:18

Uh environment continue to try to trust the lord and press on Uh as we're counseling, but every situation just does have to be different Yeah And ultimately it may take longer for some than others but ultimately the the truth is

01:06:34

Is that assuming you're talking about two regenerate people husband and wife who are both christians?

01:06:42

um who Who have some obvious growth to do in sanctification that needs to take place repentance needs to take place

01:06:48

But if you're dealing with two regenerate truly regenerate people and dwelt by the holy spirit of god, there's no reason no reason on this planet that That couple cannot work through The differences the trials the difficulties that they're going through if they're in dwelt by the holy spirit

01:07:06

They have the word of god. They have the fellowship of the saints Bear one another's burdens do the one and the one another's in scripture um

01:07:15

There's no reason that these things cannot be worked out If both yep, absolutely are willing to give both are willing right and if they want it can be very difficult yeah, and of course if one is not then you know ultimately

01:07:32

If he continues in that state of he or she continues in that state of unrepentant

01:07:38

Behavior than the assumption is that that is a false professor in christ because yeah, that's where church comes in That's what church disciplines right, right which

01:07:48

Sadly, very few churches actually practice church discipline. So yes, you're right there for a reason Okay Okay Well guys, thank y 'all.

01:07:58

Thank y 'all so very much. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for your your um Your faithful witness to the lord.

01:08:06

Um, um, I grieve for you that y 'all have been put through this but um in god's providence, it's going to be used by him to To help an awful lot of people and encourage a lot of people.

01:08:18

I believe I truly believe that Thank y 'all. Thank you. We appreciate you justin and we do hope that this will minister to people.

01:08:25

Oh, I know it will I know it will All right. Is there Any final thoughts anything you would like to share?

01:08:32

No, I can't think of anything. No Okay All right. Well tom, you're the pastor of first baptist church lindale, texas so if people are in the

01:08:43

East texas neck of the woods looking for a good church First baptist lindale. All right.

01:08:48

Thank you both. Thank you brother. All right So dear ones, thank you so very much for watching

01:08:54

I am glad to have had this opportunity to interview them and I hope that you hearing directly from tom and jennifer

01:09:01

Has been helpful for you given all the publicity and controversy surrounding this

01:09:06

Really? It's very important to hear from primary sources and I can tell you tom and jennifer are both just super Super fine folks.

01:09:15

They really are they're the real deal and i'm very grateful for tom and his friendship.

01:09:20

He's been a good friend to me so Tom and jennifer. Thank you uh as we close

01:09:26

I do have a couple of closing thoughts I want to revisit the uh tweets that this individual put up got a graphic here and I have

01:09:40

Scratched out the names and the pictures. I'm sure some of you can you probably figure out who this is but uh

01:09:46

You know to say these kind of things jennifer looks frightened Uh tom still seems abusive.

01:09:52

Maybe someone can get a word of jennifer to blink out and sos I'm concerned jennifer may still be being abused

01:10:00

The only abuse I see right there is grammar abuse, but at any rate and then say she looks afraid and self -protecting

01:10:09

That is that is some of the most Just shocking libelous statements

01:10:17

That um that i've come across in some time that I mean how many biblical principles?

01:10:24

Uh, can we identify that we're broken? In in these statements from a professing christian

01:10:30

It's just unbelievable uh, and uh I'm sure the person who put these statements up.

01:10:36

I'm sure you're watching this right now And you should be ashamed. Honestly, you should be ashamed And I hope in any other

01:10:44

Anybody else that joined in all the reindeer games here? Um should be ashamed and may god grant you repentance in that um

01:10:55

On a happier note though for those of you who are watching and you are

01:11:00

Your marriage is in some difficult times You're a believer your wife is a believer

01:11:07

And you're going through some difficult times some trials and things that you've got to work through Let me recommend a couple of good books for you the excellent wife and the exemplary husband

01:11:18

Written by martha peace and stewart scott respectively These are both excellent books

01:11:24

Uh, I have not read the excellent wife because I have no plans on me ever being a wife Uh, but my wife kathy has read that book

01:11:31

I think she's read it multiple times and I have read the exemplary husband a couple of times. In fact, I read it

01:11:37

Oh just uh I don't know a few months into our marriage actually and it was a big help for me

01:11:43

So I if you've not yet come across these resources, even if your marriage is great Um, these are some very helpful books.

01:11:49

So check those books out There's other ones that are also good. But these these two come to my mind immediately

01:11:57

All right. Thank you very much for watching dear ones until our next time together May the grace of our lord.