Tom and Jennifer Buck Interview

Hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today. I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast. I had the privilege of interviewing Tom and Jennifer Buck.

Tom is the pastor of First Baptist Church, Lindale, Texas and some of you most of you probably watching this channel, you're at least somewhat familiar with the Controversy that has been swirling around Tom and Jennifer Buck this rough draft of this letter that was leaked in the SBC and all that.

So if you've kind of heard of some of that if you're not sure exactly what is going on I would encourage you to well, you can google it and read about it. But also the first place I would like you to go to is in the description down below I have provided a link to an article that Jennifer wrote on the G3 website this was published back in April a few months ago a couple months ago and So read that and that will give you kind of some background information.

But this this rough draft that she wrote was leaked and it was leaked with the purpose of doing damage to Tom's reputation and I was very just a Really dark thing that happened and quite honestly my words Speaking for them, but quite honestly reprehensible what was done to Tom and Jennifer Buck.

So I wanted you to hear from them Primary source and I think this interview will be an encouragement to you. So please do watch it all the way through. At the very end of it. I will have a couple of closing thoughts a couple of important points I think that should be made and so do watch it all the way through now.

Let me say this you'll probably notice that the audio levels are a bit uneven. Jennifer's audio is a bit low and I think it's because she was a little bit further away from the microphone. So I did my best and post edit to go through and try to up her volume levels but I am no sound engineer that is for sure and My youtube channel.

Well, if you're watching my youtube channel, you ain't this ain't Hollywood. You're not watching my channel for special effects. So anyway, I think I think you can grin and bear it So without any further delay.

Here is Tom and Jennifer. Well Tom and Jennifer. It is such a pleasure to have you on my youtube channel. And thank you so very much for coming on Tom this is a result of you reaching out to me a few weeks ago and just talking about how you and Jennifer would like an opportunity to Kind of give your side of the story of all this.

It's garnered so much attention and So Yeah, I want to give you this opportunity and tell us a little bit about I guess maybe just briefly how this became such a Such a big story and the publicity that it garnered.

The Leaked Draft and the Buck Marriage Story

Well, Jennifer's story got leaked her a rough draft that she had written about the early years of our marriage. It's kind of a long story and it would take up probably more time than what we desired to do regarding Talking about our marriage and what God did to heal it.

And most of the people a lot of people know already about that, but essentially What occurred was? Jennifer and I had mainly Jennifer had about four years ago I was a part of her and she was walking through that was writing out the rough draft of What we had experienced in our first few years of marriage.

We have been married 35 years and Coming up next month and we have always talked about our story regarding the Difficulties that we had in the first few years of our marriage mainly in order to bring encouragement to the church.

We share in counseling sessions. When we talk with you know couples that are struggling in their marriage. Because we know that it gives them hope that if God can do what he did in our relationship in an air marriage.

That he can do the same thing for them if they'll submit themselves to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because often like with us mainly with me. I didn't I knew what the gospel was. I understood what God what God wanted marriage to be, but I didn't know how to live that out.

I didn't know how to overcome issues in my own life that I had with Anger from things that happened to me in the past and and so forth and it and it spilled over into our marriage. I just didn't know how to deal with that and I find that that's a lot of times what's happening in and young married couples.

And sometimes even couples have been married longer than that. They don't know how to apply the gospel, but we had never shared it on a broader scale. And so four years ago We were doing thinking about sharing that Jennifer specifically because the me to movement church to movement was at foot.

So maybe you could just explain for a second why you had a desire to share it on a broader scale.

Because I kept seeing a lot of the voices that were talking. Basically, they were they were just stuck in the abuse. They were in. There was no reconciliation. There was no hope being given for a marriage to be redeemed for somebody to change in Christ.

There was no instruction on how to apply the gospel. Those things were being lost in a very public and a topic that was much at the forefront even within a lot of the circles of the church that we were seeing and that.

Was that saddened me. Because I know firsthand that the gospel can change and I know firsthand we've learned how to apply the gospel and.

I didn't want that to be lost. And so we shared that obviously I'd share. I've shared it from the pulpit Story. I've talked about how that I was controlling and and how that I was. I Would say I probably used the word abusive with my language.

I was not kind in the way I spoke to my that wasn't every second of every day. But it certainly was part of a main part of what our marriage was early on. And not to interrupt but just.

Early Marriage Conflict, Anger, and Control

Yeah, just to set the scene for those who are not as familiar maybe watching this and hearing of it for the first time this all came about as Jennifer you wrote a rough draft talking about the early years of your marriage.

And so when we say the early years we're talking about. Yeah, 35 years ago and and this at the time. Tom you were not. You were not a pastor. But you were a seminary student, correct? I was seminary student when we came to that point.

I'd served as a worked in youth and things of that nature, but I was not senior pastor yet. Yeah, and so I was at seminary when this all came to a head and when you know things were getting pretty rough to one degree or another and.

But since we'd share that in those other settings Jennifer had never put it in writing. Right. And. And. And you know when you're go out into public consumption. You want because you don't have the ability to to explain things like we're going to on this video.

You know, you're you just got it there in in cold black and white, right? And so she was looking for somebody to help her edit that and and give her feedback and we reached out to someone for that. Jennifer and I both did.

That's all we had asked for. And it's a long story of why it never got even into a blog but at the end we had even forgotten about it, but then it resurfaced when somebody took her story and was going to try to use that or was using it as a means by which to retaliate against me because they did not like some of the things that I was doing in the Southern Raps convention and.

And no need to get into all that but that's how her story came out. And unfortunately because of how it came out it. It really was robbing us of the opportunity of sharing all that God had done. Our story has always been received as hopeful Gospel centered people in the church.

Thankful that we were willing to be vulnerable and willing to be transparent about Her marriage to help other people.

Draft I wrote it in a particular way so that it could be Clear to whoever was helping me fashion it that I knew I was talking about and I wouldn't just be disregarded. So I put things in there that I didn't necessarily want to be stated that way publicly but I needed them to have a background and understanding to help me know how to translate it without.

Having that we've had right now and in my rough draft I'd say a third of it was discussing the issues and then two-thirds of it was God's redemptive work. The majority of it was God did but they have disregarded that.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah, and Tom you sent me the rough draft. I've read it and and it is a beautiful story of How God has worked in your marriage and just to just to kind of clear up so people don't get the Way, this has been used By some to try to hurt you both of you that Tom you were Abusive and so let if I may kind of delve in here a little bit.

What did that quote-unquote abuse. Look like now, I know because I've read the rough draft, but I want to hear from y 'all. So Did this ever come to like physical abuse or what? What kind of abuse are we talking about?

Well, I think it'd probably good first just kind of talk to how it led up to that, you know. When when there was a point in time that I slapped Jennifer's arm her wrist. I think they're probably good to not because that's kind of turning point of where we realize.

Repentance, Counseling, and the Slap on the Wrist

Yeah got to deal with something so maybe you could just talk about what it was like early early on in our marriage and and. Because it was verbal. Tearing down verbally. So go ahead and just.

It took a long time, you know retrospect you see things differently. I Realized later that Tom was very insecure in his leadership. And so anything that I said, well not anything. But a lot of things that I said things that I differed with him on had a different opinion on he took that as a threat and.

Because he didn't know how to Process that so he would get very defensive. And in that defensiveness if I kept trying to push my my point he would get very upset over that. And I don't remember. I don't remember any calling of names.

I don't remember that type. Just very loud very strong. You shouldn't think that way. You need to think this way.

Well, I would say certain things like well, that's stupid. Well, yeah, that's you know, and. It was never you're stupid, but my ideas were in court. Yeah, and and just demeaning, you know, so demeaning language.

Controlling so to the point of like if we were in the car and.

I couldn't touch the air-conditioner. Yeah, no.

And if she and I'd be like, why are you you know, I wouldn't. I'd push her hand away at that point. Don't don't be Stations that I wanted on. It's on. Let me put the do not disturb on here. So I was you know I was frustrated that she whenever she tried to contradict me in any way or anything that I felt that I should be in control.

So I'm trying to put this do not disturb on someone. Do that real quick or that'll be Dean the rest of the time.

So. And there was money control. I didn't if he wanted to take me out and buy me clothes. That was great and he did occasionally but I did not just say oh I'm gonna go get a shirt or I'm gonna go get this or that it was.

It was very much controlled on those areas. He was good and lavishing those things, but I did not. I did feel that I had no say if I felt I needed something that he didn't think I needed. Then I wasn't gonna get it.

So that was an issue.

Even to the point where you know, and I didn't even realize how bad this was for Jennifer at the time, but Because I've always had to struggle with dieting and stuff like that. We didn't have a lot of money.

So I would say hey we got to eat we got to eat this certain kind of food because that's what I need to be able to eat to be able to to maintain where I need to be and just with the stress of. You know constantly.

I think you probably Yeah on guard all the time you felt demean the little. So she had that stress and then on top of that not being able to eat the kind of food She needs to eat because I mean all this diet food.

We couldn't afford anything else. She got down to lost weight through the process of that and that's in her in her. In the ref draft as well. Yeah. And so then it came to the point when we realized and I think you know, Jennifer multiple times tried to appeal to me.

To say to help me see how she is feeling regarding these things. Even tried to appeal for me to talk to somebody in the process of that.

But I'm sure it wasn't always very nicely. Well.

But there was a point in time where you can tell the part with the Coke can type thing. This is where it came to point. We've got to get help. Okay. Yeah.

We just we we actually had friends over there was somebody at the house and I just took a coke can and Put it on the back of his neck and he whirled around in anger and grabbed my wrist and slapped my hand.

I don't think it bruised. I don't remember that it was embarrassing and it was shocking. It was demeaning. It was more demeaning than then.

Almost like I would do it like you do a child.

Now I remember seeing the shock in his own eyes, but I was so angry at that point. I didn't care. Although I think we both realized I knew that that could persist because I I was learning enough to know.

That sin never stays in the same place. It keeps progressing. It keeps moving forward. I knew we made another Progression and that that was not going to stop if something didn't intervene.

Yeah, and like she said we had friends there that wasn't in the story. There but it wasn't you know. If it had been something the way some people have tried to portray it some kind of violent slap or across the face or something that nature.

Those individuals will certainly. Well, they were standing there. So it was like I said, it was demeaning. It was wrong. It was sinful. It was ungodly. It was Not the way you treat your wife as in a gentle as a gentle godly vessel that she is.

Yeah, and that's when I realized that's why there was shock in my eyes that if my because I'd never touched her before in any way. Negatively and I'm like if I can do that I Could possibly do worse. And so had you been had you started meeting with Dottie at that time?

I.

Remember if you had or not, I yes. Yes. I was already meeting with Dottie, which is I think what helped. Keep me steady through the whole process. I was already meeting with her. We were she was already had already been teaching me how to pray for time.

This is the older lady that you. And one of the things she she anytime I would I would just tell her about what was going on. I wasn't complaining about him because I was still a little bit in the fog.

I think of understanding what was going on. She'd say, you know, I'm sure Tom doesn't want to teach treat you that way. I know he loves you we just need to pray for him and. That was what the Lord used to open my eyes to realize there really is an issue here.

But it was safeguarded around. I need to pray for him and we would pray for him and I would pray for him and the Lord used that to protect My understanding of what was going on. To seek help instead of just running away.

Yeah, yeah, and then it was after that happened with the slap on the wrist that I Realize it was through the process of that that I said, I'm gonna meet with Bob who was Dottie's husband and. So it you know, it was it was a good long road after that, you know year or so of counseling and Being having them minister to us and to help me learn how to be the man that God has called me to be.

And I still remember the first time that we talked with Bob that he said that when Probably meet together a year and he said when we're at the end of this. He said you all I believe by the power of the gospel and the grace of God.

You'll have a marriage beyond your dreams. Is that how you said that and Jennifer literally laughed out loud. Oh. Really? In disbelief and that pierced me to the heart. Oh, wow. Because I realized how much I'd hurt Jennifer.

Wow, and how wounded she really was not physically but emotionally. And I think she would tell you that it was all the all the other things. Were far more damaging than that slap on the wrist that day.

In the sense of just emotional. Things she had to walk through. And so we tell this story and we want you know, because we get to the hope of the gospel through that. But Jennifer wanted you wanted people to know that it wasn't a cakewalk.

Because so many of you know, so many of those who have gone through. They call themselves survivors and you never called yourself that terminology use that terminology for yourself. But they you know.

They have a hard time. I think believing and Jennifer didn't want them to not believe that we went through so real struggle. This was not some. Oh, we had some you know. Spats here and there like a lot of young married couples do we went for a really a period of struggle?

And I didn't you know, I didn't realize how much anger I had in me.

And you don't know those things before you get married. You're not putting those positions. You don't know how you're going to respond. You don't know how you're going to deal with things until you're in the circumstance, right?

I think a lot of marriages go through that. I don't think we're unique right.

And and something that Probably a lot of people don't realize is that both of you Have had some abuse in your in your past before y 'all ever got married. And and tom you you as well.

I mean that well, my yeah, mine mine resulted in producing anger in me. Yeah, and uh the things that I went through um That doesn't excuse what I did, you know, there's no excuse for that but that's part of what um helps people understand and that you know, we bring baggage into into our marriages into relationships.

Yeah. And if it were not for the gospel Changing and transforming us. I would have lost my marriage. Yeah, you know that. People say, you know, you could have lost your ministry. Yeah, I think I would have never been in ministry, but there's something more important than ministry and that is my marriage.

Because if I can't leave my home, well, I can't leave the church, right? That's right. Yeah. Um had I been a pastor when all this was going on I would have needed to step away for sure. Yeah, if this did not get rectified and resolved in a way that's That honors the lord of the gospel I wouldn't be be qualified.

But the qualifications that we see in scripture are not that one has always perfectly Ruled their household, but they go into that position that they're they're they're. Leading in such a way that is godly.

And that's how god has used us to be able to help other families other marriages to say look if god did that with us He could do that with you. Absolutely.

Absolutely, what gets lost is the. So many people look at things and say, okay. Well, i'm going to trust god. So make my marriage better. And then it doesn't happen. The whole process of walking through what we did that year with bob and even the years after because you know.

It didn't get perfect overnight. It's learning to walk in dependence on the lord. It's learning to seek him. It's learning to trust him. It's learning to recognize that. This situation that i'm in the circumstances that I am in God has allowed me to be in therefore.

It's his will for me. Therefore he will make a way for me to walk through it in obedience to him now that may look somewhat different in different situations. But the the purpose is to learn to grow and walk in obedience and dependence on the lord.

And that message is lost because we want a quick fix. We want it to be better overnight. I want him to be changed now. I want me to be changed now so we can all be happy and that's not that's not how god works and that's what i'm seeing in the the the arena of the world today how they're talking about it, it's just.

Whatever escape you can find that gives you the quick fix. That's where you go and that is not the message of the gospel.

The Gospel, Sanctification, and Romans 8:28

Yeah, amen. And and in reading your rough draft, I mean that that is absolutely the the emphasis of it is the the power of the gospel the beautiful redemptive work of the gospel not only in our initial redemption, you know to salvation but our but our sanctification in that.

And both of you have have been sanctified through this and. You know Jennifer you even quote romans 8 28 in your rough draft. And it's not that what the two of you went through in your first few years of marriage.

It's not that that was in and of itself a good thing right. Because it wasn't. But Romans 8 28 doesn't say that all things are good. It says that god works all things together for the good. Even those things that are in and of themselves are not good and.

So that's the that's the beautiful part about this is how god has used those things. To bring you to the to the point where you are today and and you can help others who have been through similar things going through similar things and unfortunately that has been lost and uh.

And clouded in all of the you know, the controversy and how this came about.

Yeah, I mean there is no doubt that had I continued in the pattern that I was in that jennifer I think would have escalated to the point that she couldn't have lived in that name longer. In fact, she knew she could do that and I think I told you.

That we were on a time frame. Yeah, I think I confronted you it was it was. It was almost as if when we first got married. I was I was very insecure. I was very weak. I I couldn't Uh battle his strength, which was a good thing because if I had we would have never gotten beyond it.

But it was like the lord brought me through with with uh with dotty working with me and growing spiritually I came to a point where I Was able to stand up and say this is going to stop Or i'm going to leave we have this long to figure it out.

And but the lord had been working at him. That he was ready to hear it. It just all worked together perfectly in the timing and the lord had in place Bob to be able to come in and start working with us because that's we immediately started with bob after that.

Yeah, I think that's one of the important things in all this is we have never counseled and we disagree with those who say oh, you just go, you know, if you're if you're in danger or. Uh, a wife is supposed to just keep going back and living in something that is not in any way reflecting What scripture says of how a marriage should be.

We have never counseled anybody. Oh, you just keep going back home and and. And take whatever is dished out. Dottie didn't talk that way to jennifer. But we also don't look at people and say well, you know what?

Uh, you probably just need to leave. You probably need to get a divorce. Uh, you know, whatever it may be. I don't even understand christians that begin at that point um. But if we would if we would allow the word of god to govern.

What we do and how we respond. My wife confronted me in my sin. Yeah my wife reached out. To individuals who were willing to help confront me and help me. Come to the point of seeing the need that for the help that I got I was repentant of those things.

Um Jennifer was also was willing we both were to do what scripture says get the log out of your own eyes. She looked at her sin as well. It was being brought to the marriage, which was one of the hardest things.

I think that was probably one of the hardest things to do because when I was faced with Well, jennifer you've responded this way or this is what you've been doing. It was hard to accept that because He was the bigger problem.

And that was very humbling to be able to have to say, you know what you're right. I'm not. I can't be completely excused. There are things that I did that that perpetuated things or or whatever. Because we're in these situations.

It brings out your own sin. So that god can deal with you to be able to make me whole. And to make him whole and I think that's abuse. Survivors probably deal with that. That's one of the hardest things they have to face.

Is that this is revealing my own sin, maybe not sin in that situation. But it's revealing my own sin and how I respond to it how I think about it how I process it, whatever I'm, not without my own sin.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's an important point and something that needs to be stressed. I think that Obviously none of us no one in their right mind would condone any kind of abuse. But those who are on the receiving end of that.

Just because they're on the receiving end of it does not mean that they do not have their own sin issues with which to deal. So and jennifer, I love the your story about. The lady that I now know is named dotty.

I don't think you named her in your rough draft, but but it's a beautiful picture of Titus 2, right? Older women teaching the younger women and um, you know for we're all complementarians all three of us here and say that oh women can't teach in church.

Well they. They do. Some women do have the gift of teaching but it's it's to be used in a proper way as dotty used her gift. With you and her husband. I don't remember. What was his name? Bob. Bob, you know used his with you tom.

So, um, I think that's a. Uh, as I was reading your rough draft titus 2 just kept popping in my mind. So, oh, that's really cool.

Titus 2 Discipleship and Gospel-Centered Counsel

Yeah, we couldn't have made it without that couple. Uh, you know, I mean, you know what I mean by that god obviously would he used. But in his providence, yeah in god's providence. He used that couple.

That's we couldn't have. That god knew that's what we needed uh, god knew that he had a plan for using us in ministry and. Again, we've told this story over and you may want to press in on some of the issues we'd be glad to do that, but we've told this story over and over again and We have never whether it be in private counseling or from the pulpit when i've talked about it.

Uh have never encountered people Being repulsed by our story or thinking of me in a some type of a an an ogre, you know abuser type way because people see me they know me they say in fact when the One of the most meaningful things that was said to me through all of this when jennifer put her g3 uh article up on g3.

Um is I got a direct message From voddie bockham. And he said you don't resemble that man in the least. Amen amen. And that I I can't i've never talked about it read it or talked about it without it overwhelming me because.

That's what it should be. Amen. All of us should have stories. That Of our sin in the past that if we told And we're now true christian that people would say I have no idea who that person is. And the heart one of the hardest things about all this.

Is not that our story has been told not about the slap on the wrist not about the Abusive words I used with my wife. Those are not the things that caused me to hurt through this. It's that there are people particularly within the so-called survivor community.

Who are choosing? To want me to look like today. What I looked like 30 some years ago. Yeah, and then what they want that to be who I am now, right? And I I really wonder whether some of these people even know the gospel because paul said Some this is what you once were.

That's right. The gospel does not continue to define us. By what we once were now, we need to know what we once were so we appreciate that we're no longer that. Yeah, so I have no problem. We will continue to tell our story.

Yeah, this is. And that that was another thing. I can't tell you the number of people that texted me. Uh from back in florida said oh you've told this story all the time. Uh, remember you tell it this is nothing new.

I I talked with nate pickawicks. Uh who messaged me or and he said you told me this when we were in baltimore, uh, we'd seen each other there I didn't even remember telling him. Yeah, the point is we've told this story so many times.

Right people. We don't even remember that we've told that are not shocked by it because they've heard it before right, right.

Yeah, I was um. Your comment about what votey said to you when I first heard of this. When I first read the article on g3. This was news to me and tom. You and i've been friends for A number of years now, but I guess it's just I don't know it's just never really come up and so I didn't know about it, but when I read that i'm like That I had the same thought like this.

This is not tom. I. It was almost incomprehensible to me that that uh, this was even part of your background because you're not that guy anymore I mean you've. Yeah, the gospel has Sanctified you and you've progressed in sanctification over 30 years.

As you would expect. Yeah, one of the most important things is not just simply that you didn't recognize that because we do know. That people can live in secret hidden sin, right and nobody know it then it comes out.

What matters is is my wife knows that's not who I am anymore and testifies to that. Yeah, and my children testify to that. They were all go. I mean, what were the kids saying? I mean my adult kids even that that what's he talking about?

What's what is this abuse that they're talking about? They knew about our struggles in their marriage, but they couldn't comprehend that people were calling me an abuser. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

You know and tom i'm so glad you just said what you did because there is no one on this planet Who knows us better than our spouses? No one. Because we live with them, you know, there's no one who and in the very fact uh, jennifer the way you you have um Conducted yourself and the things that you've said and your your clear support of your husband um testifies to the to the gracious work of christ in your lives.

Um, and it Tom you could not Be a pastor If you did not have the support Of jennifer. I know i'm I mean i'm not a pastor, but i'm in ministry. I'm an evangelist. I could not in a million years dream Of being in any kind of ministry if I did not know that kathy Loves me And supports me and respects me if I didn't have the support and respect of my wife.

Oh, man, i'd shut this thing down so fast and i'd go work at burger king. Mm-hmm, but the the very fact that jennifer has stood with you. Um So faithfully, I mean it testifies to the To the fact that you're a different guy than you were 30 years ago.

And he's a good leader and those that the.

I gave him leadership. Quality and strength now when we were first married. He didn't know how to use that. But god used that process to hone him and to teach him and to grow him and to make him into the leader.

He is today. I would never have been able to walk through this. As well as we have. I'm not. I'm, not Devastated. I'm not Incapable. I'm not um so overwhelmed for it from it. Yeah. Function because of his leadership.

And because of what god has developed in him and how he's helped me walk through this. And I have the confidence that he's not going to let me Say the wrong thing out in public. He's going to correct me on that not harshly.

But just you know, jen, is that the best way to handle this? Maybe you should do it this way. He helps me with that and he doesn't um. Yell at me if I get upset, but he corrects my mindset of well. This is where bitterness can come in.

We have to be careful on how we think about these things. I appreciate that protection. That he's given me as we walk through this and I know i'm strong enough to fight the battles that need to be fought.

I don't have to feel like he's just going to sit back and passively let it all fly by. He's he's engaging and dealing with it and I have immense respect for that. Yeah.

Amen. Amen. That's the beauty of marriage. That's the way it's supposed to work. And and um and. And two as complementarians uh, we affirm that as men and women we are of equal value before god, we just do have different roles, but.

But jennifer you are indwelt by the same holy spirit who indwells your husband and and god used you in confronting tom along with bob as well, but but you primarily and so. You confronted him in a godly way and in truth.

Uh, kathy is indwelt by the same holy spirit indwells me. So as complementarians, we're not saying that uh as men and women we cannot correct each other and confront each other's sins. So this is this is the way it's supposed to work in a in a christian marriage.