Resources on Eschatology Then Matt Walsh, Rome, and Mary as Mediatrix

And greetings. Welcome to the dividing line on a thursday. Well morning. I don't have any uh monitor of anything so i'm not sure if we're operating or not but uh here we go anyways hopefully getting record.

Ah there we go. What's that. Hmm uh there's a camera. Okay um let's see all i did move the uh. Oh yeah you don't get to see it quite as well now. Uh yeah. Well uh yeah but you see all the other stuff too which yeah we can go back to that one.

Thank you very much. Um that's much better. Um want to start off uh program today with a little bit of information um um look i understand in light of the last program that uh when it comes to eschatology there's a lot of um emotion a lot of tradition and a lot of ignorance.

And i i don't know what it is about that specific subject but it sure does create a lot of uh a lot of heat without a whole lot of light uh in in my opinion that's why it's sort of a uh mantra around here we don't do eschatology.

But the problem with that's twofold. First of all um eschatology is a wider term than just the theories regarding the timing and the relationship between uh the coming of christ resurrection uh the concept of a millennium what's the nature of the millennium all the rest that kind of stuff.

Eschatology proper is last things and hence is primarily focused upon uh such issues as final judgment resurrection um the nature of the eternal state um heaven and hell. Basically that's eschatology proper.

And then the rest of stuff i wish there was a different term to use for it to be honest with you then that would be a little bit more specific. But uh most of us are raised. If you're raised in the church it's fairly natural to have a default eschatology.

And if you're raised in a church where you didn't have almost any interaction outside of your particular group which uh is common uh in in many situations um then you can just sort of assume that everyone has the same eschatology.

And once you run into somebody that doesn't then you automatically think that they're weird maybe not even a christian. And uh you get ready to put up your dukes and have it have it out. And on the last program i mentioned the king james only guys and how they said that i'm preparing the world for the mark of the beast.

Well there's a whole there's a whole world of beliefs behind that um specifically when i mentioned the uh uh lawnmower just sitting there running in the front yard unless you have been in the basement of an independent fundamentalist baptist church uh at 11 45 p .m on new year's night watching thief in the night um then that doesn't make much sense to you but if you have it still gives you chills.

Really does. And so i understand that if that's all you you've ever experienced that you haven't read anything else or that you don't know other people that have different views um then someone going yeah i just don't buy that anymore um that that can that can make.

I had people writing to me why don't you believe in the rapture and and stuff like that. And and i'm like have you have you looked at this issue down through church history you know there have been different there have been different perspectives down through church history.

And uh dispensationalism is a is a modern perspective very modern 1800s. And you had historic pre-millennialism you've got on millennialism you've got post-millennialism. Man the early church is a mixture of everything.

Uh there's there's millennialism all the way back there. But what did that necessarily mean. Um and it can be uncomfortable to discover that there are other perspectives other than the one that you have held for a long time after uh and for me i've told this story before what happened for me was uh i was raised one particular view and went to bible college and heard other views.

And the thing that first impacted me was being challenged. It seems that the exegetical methodology you're using to substantiate position is not the same method exegetical methodology you use to substantiate other key issues which i was already dealing with at that time specifically um dealing with uh mormonism jehovah's witnesses so defending the deity of christ resurrection.

It seems like the the method interpretation using is is different. And they were right uh it was different because i had just sort of you know accepted a a particular set had never seen it. You know i'd never seen a five views book or whatever else it might be.

Um and so for a long time i jokingly said i'm a pan -millennialist it'll all pan out in the end part of that was just simply due to the fact that i'll just be honest with you when when this issue comes up and when i look at the size of books i just i just can't bring myself to invest the the time and effort i mean i i read a lot of books within one particular perspective uh many years ago uh when i still held that perspective but i just uh i just i can't invest the time i've i it's not an area of my passion at all.

That's why you know we have people in our church that hold to all three of the major perspectives and and probably some people that would still have a lot of elements of dispensationalism in there even though that would not really fit with a overall framework of the london maps confession uh but and i don't care uh there are certain things you need to affirm eschatologically speaking god's going to wrap it all up the way he wants to wrap it all up.

Christ is going to return he's king. There's going to be a day of judgment. All those things are absolutely necessary. But uh especially when it comes to eschatology there are things that are assumed and often very rarely proven when it comes to these things and so i have uh post-millennial friends and i have historic pre-millennial friends and we do not sit around and and argue the issues.

Am i saying it's not important. No um it does impact things. There's there's no question about the fact that it impacts things that there is a relationship it's not just some area that's off there and you can just ignore it and not worry about it and know that it is it is relevant.

There's no two ways about it. Well people ask well and how do you adopt. Well what position do you hold then. I am an millennialist and people say well are you an optimistic on millennialist or a pessimistic.

Oblin is so it depends what i have for breakfast i guess um but if if i had to if i had to choose between those two i'd say i'm a pessimistic on millennialist. Um and that generally is is in regards to the idea of uh the idea of the growth of the kingdom.

Well i think god's kingdom has grown worldwide. But i think it will always be persecuted. And i believe it will always. Men will always be deceiving and and being deceived and that if you want to live godly in christ jesus you will always experience persecution.

I just i don't see the evidence that it's god's intention during the existence of the church on earth for the church to become um the majority voice in culture. Certainly historically. Any time that anyone thought that was happening it was actually the opposite of what was happening.

Um to be honest with you. But anyway well how'd you get there. Uh you you were raised dispensational pre-millennial. Yep. Um uh pre-tribulation rapture too in case you're wondering because there's all if if you want to see people fight um if you want to see a knockdown drag out.

It's not about uh post pre. It's between the pre-trip mid-trip and post-trippers. They'll go at each other like i don't know what. Um it's uh it's it's it's pretty amazing anyway. Um people say well what moved you from being pan-millennial uh to being on millennium.

Because pan-millennial isn't really a position. I mean some of you really like it. But it's not really it's it's it's an agnostic thing. Um you know i don't know. So it'll all pan out in the end. So i won't.

You know um i'm still hoping these lectures will someday uh appear in uh you know where they where they somehow will will appear in print or or what. Because i don't have them anywhere. Um but what i would like to to see is the the set of lectures that i heard from on the subject of this age and the age to come.

They were from trinity ministerial academy. Dr nichols was the one that delivered them and it was listening to him work through jesus's own eschatology. You know jesus taught a lot about this subject.

And in jesus's teaching you have this age and the age to come. That's all you've got. You don't have any transitionary periods. You don't have any periods in between. You don't have any evolution this age.

Here's what happens in this age the age to come here's what's there. So if you start with that as your framework there's not a whole lot of room for all the speculative stuff that has been crammed into various eschatological theories.

Amillennialism is the simplest. It's the it's the cleanest. Uh i don't think any system has answers for everything. Um but of the three i believe that it has the least it has the most consistent exegesis and least unanswered questions or at least the last least forced answered questions.

And given that some of uh dr nichols stuff is appearing in print right now i'm still hopeful that that might that might take place it might happen. Um very similar i actually grabbed i had to. The funny thing is i had to go looking uh and i didn't even find all of them.

But they were all at least ones i found were in one spot anyways and i even forgotten where they were. Because again this is just not my it's not my area. But someone on twitter asked yesterday and i looked up and i found the end times made simple by samuel waldron.

How could everyone be so wrong about biblical prophecy. And uh basically and i i guess i uh read on uh amazon. Basically what he's saying is what i just got done explaining in regards to um those lectures jesus's eschatology was this age and the age to come.

If anybody's teaching you something more than that then they're missing the basic paradigm. And that's pretty much what sam waldron's saying. And most of my reformed baptist uh brethren are all millennialists.

They're they're posties amongst us there's a few odd uh historic premillers but basically the reformed baptist default position is all millennial. And so there you've got sam waldron's book. Highly recommend it.

Another recent book. Yeah i know there's sequel to it. They're both in the albany amazon bookstore now a case from millennialism understanding the end times. Kim riddlebarger. This one uh i remember this just recently huh.

Okay. Well you know you're getting older. When just recently was 14 years ago i thought this was fairly recent. Um hey it's more recent most of my books. So a case for online realism. Kim riddlebarger 2003.

Uh it's an ibp imprint online ism today i love today. And today was uh 1966. But um uh you've got william e cox's and it's just got to be the most boring cover i think i've ever ever seen uh well there are actually a lot of them and then sort of a classic ray summers worthy as the lamb is uh is is another.

So there there are just a few books uh that i just they're all in the same spot in my library and hadn't been moved in a long time but um so we grabbed them and um there you go. Uh if you want to take a look at them look there's all sorts of books presenting post-millennialism.

Don't judge. The most important thing to do uh is do not judge any eschatological system based upon your viewing of the modern world situation. Um when you've got people who are for example uh selling videos and books and stuff like that based on you know the current headlines.

Hal lindsey. Sorry but hey i remember i don't know why this is so clear in my memory but i know i remember exactly what the little inside auditorium looked like at my high school independence high school 75th avenue in maryland here in phoenix um i was in the first four-year graduating class from independence high school and so it was real brand new and it was really neat.

And that's the same room where we had the trial of lee harvey oswald. I was the lead prosecuting attorney. I've still got some pictures of that man i wish i really wish we had kept it it disappeared somehow.

But we had the videotape of the trial lee harvey oswald. And man i wish i still had that. That was uh really really really cool. Um someone just posted the cover of dangerous airwaves on twitter and said here's an example of a non-boring cover.

Yes and that artwork was done by chris arnzen. By the way just uh thought you all would want to know that. And he's the one that came up with the uh the title too. So he wanted me to write that book and so i did.

And pulpit crimes that matter uh did that too. Um anyway uh what was i saying. Oh yes um i remember that room that uh you know it had fold-down seats. It was really nice back then they probably had to have had redone it three or four times since then because kids destroy things.

But well we're trying to burn the school down 13 14 days after it opened. That was that was a bummer. Uh no seriously we had a fire and some sophomore started fire amongst uh desks boxes of desks and it was uh that was the first time i ever went running out of a burning building.

Uh so anyway um it was beautiful school. And i remember sitting there is one of those tests your senior year where you know california standardized achievement test. I don't remember but um we i would always get done very early.

Um i don't know when i was a kid i developed this bad habit of trying to get everything done fast rather than checking my work and stuff like that. Um but i was done long before everybody else was. And you're allowed to take out a book start reading.

I have the clearest image of me sitting in that room reading the late great planet earth. Um and uh you know i i get it i get i get the attraction you want you want the bible to be something it really isn't.

A lot of us forget that the bible has been read by christians in many different cultures at many different times. And you know one of the things that really was important to me was coming to realize you need to interpret the book of revelation as having meaning to the people to whom it was written.

If its primary meaning is for people way down the road who would have no clue what this was all about sort of missing something. And um so just just a few things to keep in mind it it's it's sad that this is such an area of uh i don't know uh unnecessary division.

Um it it is something we need to talk about it it does have meaning and impact but we need to be able to have our discussions about it. And um so i just eschatology just scares me. Uh it really does. And uh because it it gets people so angry with one another and uh there's there's all sorts of things that divide us.

That's not that's not one that's not an area that we need to be really focusing upon speaking of divided. So there's some books you might want to look at. They're uh they're in the uh bookstore alman .org go there.

Well i may not even be in print anymore. Yeah rich is saying that so the worthy is the lamb one that's not available. Okay amalism today of where the islam is. Oh okay yeah that's well i'm one is today is a pnr one.

Maybe they figured that was on millennialism decades ago so it's just changed it. Um yes so so someone from down south is saying uh he's the guy who was. You know i had somebody this this fellow on twitter was going say it's all eschatology.

It's all eschatology and i'm like huh um your eschatology should flow from preceding presuppositions not from uh its own its own self. Anyway speaking of divisions and separations uh pretty excited well excited and daunted um you know the debate coming up the 21st i'm home for about three weeks and then i'm going on the longest time-wise uh trip i've ever taken uh overseas uh three weeks that's a week longer than my expiration date.

We used to say funny it used to be 10 days 10 days of expiration date. Now we're talking 21. Um now i've got come close but i've never never not done one this long i've come close um but the trip to um wittenberg and czech republic and no i don't know where i am in the czech republic it's wherever the ebtc tmi uh school is.

You can go to ebtc and and find out and i will i be doing anything public while i'm there. I don't know uh i haven't been told in fact i'm not even sure what the topic class is yet. So um and then ukraine i wanted to um i wanted to arrange something in london on my way to wittenberg.

That's what's made the trip fairly long so it's my fault i'm the i'm the dumb one that does these things. I've got to find some way while i'm over there to keep working out and working out hard. Or this summer is going to be really ugly uh when it comes to trying to climb mount evans but um bad as it may i've mentioned to you that we had a uh really excellent discussion on the unbelievable uh radio program with justin briarley between myself and peter d williams on the subject of the reformation which may not air until closer to october.

But peter and i have been on once before and uh unlike peter stravinskis who didn't think it was relevant to read anything that i have ever written i have a feeling peter williams has has read a lot of what i've written and so we have a really fast-paced uh rock 'em sock 'em conversation uh he's he's a really bright guy and very articulate.

You know he's british so he sounds a lot smarter than he actually is. I love that and you know sort of like the nt right thing you know as long as you say it with a british accent you you sound so much more more erudite anyway uh we had a great conversation and said afterwards you know we really need to need to do some debates and he specifically said we need to debate the marion dogmas.

I'm like let's do it so i wrote to him and he just got back to me for the program and tentatively i can't absolutely nail this down right now but it looks like it's it's pretty rock solid uh monday night may 15th uh i will still be very jet lagged but i'll do my best uh monday night may 15th in london uh peter d williams and i marion dogmas a public debate.

And the neat thing what i'm really hoping uh from from peter d williams is i really hope that that peter and i can have the kind of dialogues that i've had with mitch pacwa where i'm not having to be constantly dodging um verbal barbs uh the type of things that i've always have to deal with jerry maddix for example uh mitch and i's conversations have always been really good.

And what i like about peter d williams is he's a historic orthodox roman catholic. He's not one of these wishy-washy well maybe this maybe that who knows blah blah type things he's not a fenite or anything but he's he's orthodox and he knows his faith and he knows that we are not proclaiming the same message.

That's that's the important thing it's it's hard for me to have conversations with roman catholics today that think we're all there you know you know i'm sort of like pope francis who am i to judge you know uh it's hard to have meaningful dialogue or or debate for that matter uh with someone like that.

So i'm really looking forward to it. And i guess it's best to do at the beginning uh at least i i can almost guarantee i'll be healthy uh well i guess i can't really guarantee that at all but uh at least better than the chances you know if we did it on my way home the last day you know you're you're beat up and your your your mind's not working very well anymore.

So monday night may 15th um so looking at this year man uh the inc debate that is going to be wild is going to be well wild hopefully only in the speed and um fervor of the exchange. It better not be wild as far as the participation of the audience is concerned um that's the only thing that could ruin it.

So please pray for that. But um that's 21st less than a month later that's basically three weeks later uh we have uh the debate in uh in london and uh wow it that's just starting to kick things off. It's going to be going to be an incredible uh time period there.

So uh pray for those things. Now in light of that uh it was really interesting um um yesterday afternoon i started to see some uh posts uh in twitter regarding matt walsh. Well no no no no back that up.

Um what i saw was sai ten bruggenkate post on twitter a statement from matt walsh. And basically sai was saying for all of you conservative protestants who just post everything from matt walsh because he's a social conservative um you might want to keep this in mind and it was a standard orthodox from a roman catholic perspective statement where walsh was saying why should you be worried about uh my asking mary or the saints to pray for me.

It's no different than if i asked you to pray for me. And it has been many many years since we did the um debate with uh patrick madrid. What year was that. Man. That was 2000. Early 2000s. Yeah early 2000s.

We did the debate with patrick madrid on veneration of saints and angels and i forget why it was about 2010. Maybe uh i think it's because of some stuff that said on catholic answers live if i recall correctly we did a three or four program series here on the dividing line.

This is before we were videotaping. At least i think it's before we were videotaping. Yeah it was uh where i went through that debate portion by portion going more in depth into various aspects of the subject of veneration of saints and angels.

In fact other than the jimmy aiken bible answer man program i think that's about the only other debate we've ever done that where we went back and revisited and went through it and stuff like that i forget what prompted it.

Now algo would remember but i don't think algo's in channel right now. So he'd remember exactly what it was and exactly what i said and everything else which is scary anyway. Um if you are familiar with roman catholic theology regarding the veneration of saints and angels then you know that matt walsh was just this that that's the standard type of argumentation.

That's what you're going to get from catholic answers. That's what you can get from all of them. When we're praying to mary we're not doing anything different than what uh we are doing when we ask each other to pray for each other.

It's it's all the the fellowship of the saints. This is the body of christ and their their intercession is no different. Well that's just not the case um the nature of that interaction the idea of the of contacting the dead um what that requires of them what that says of their relationship in eternity their relationship to god their relationship here on the earth.

And when you look at what rome is actually teaching when they are given the capacity to actually grant grace then we're not talking about just asking somebody else to pray for us. And certainly when you start reading through and i'm not going to do it today but we've done it before when you start reading through the statements of roman catholic saints and um what do they call the spiritual writers the doctors of the church louis de monfort and please people like that what they're literally saying about mary's role is that she is the neck that turns the god's head of grace and all grace accrues through her.

And the idea of the intercession of the saints. And what that means that when you go into roman catholic church and you see these elderly women um bowing down before statues and lighting candles and rocking back and forth and saying the rosary.

And that's not like you asking someone else to pray for you. And the idea. And they came up part of this came up. It was interesting because right around the same time someone linked me to uh the um nc register national catholic register and uh let's see what's the date on this january 31st this year under the vatican section a new title for the blessed mother theological commission requests papal acknowledgement of mary as co-redemptrix.

Elizabeth defner is the writer mary the immaculate virgin of nazareth through her free and feminine yes consented the conception of the divine word in her womb by the power of the holy spirit and thus mediated the one mediator first timothy to the world bring salvation to the human race.

So begins the role of mary in redemption. A document of the theological commission of the international marion association the ima requesting that pope francis publicly acknowledge and honor mary the mother of jesus as the co-redemptrix with jesus the redeemer.

Now those of you who um know my books know there's nothing new here. Uh this is the subject that i wrote a book on i think it was 98 uh mary another redeemer. Uh there was big push going on at that time.

John paul ii was coming up on the on the millennium um and john paul ii very very dedicated to mary. And there was a lot of speculation that he might define the fifth marion dogma the fourth having been defined only in 1950.

Uh and the third in 1854. So that's funny. I look over on on the page and there's uh there's uh mitch pacwa smiling at me. Uh uh from the proverbs explained by mitch pacwa. Well he has a new book the proverbs explained um he does read 12 languages.

So smart guy. Anyway uh so it goes on to say this isn't the first time the title has been used to describe mary saint. Uh john paul ii referred to her as a as co-redemptrix more than once. Nor is it the first time a request has been made for a papal statement on marion co-redemption.

Actually millions of petitions have been sent to the vatican requesting the definition of the fifth marion dogma. If you're asking well why hasn't been defined. Then if popes have taught it as doctrine then why not define it as dogma.

Um primarily because there is a tremendous uh concern about disruption and destruction of ecumenical progress between rome and especially eastern orthodoxy because the orthodox have not embraced um like the bodily assumption or something like that as a dogma.

Um and so so what review june of 2008 was what. Okay so uh okay june of of 2008 was when we for some reason don't remember why i'm sure it's explained at the beginning uh reviewed the uh the debate with patrick madrid.

Yeah i see it. Um so there's a lot of resistance in the the curia the magisterium against the definition of this as a dogma. Because it's already a doctrine you can already teach it but you can't define it as a part of the faith which is an odd odd thing from my perspective.

But anyway uh goes on to say but this may be the ideal time for such a papal statement says robert fastigi a professor of systematic theology at detroit's sacred heart major seminary and a member of ima's theological commission.

Now why did i emphasize robert fastigi's name. Because robert fastigi is one of the first roman catholics i debated uh we did forgotten how many fairly short televised debates in a i remember this tv studio to this day.

In fact i remember this isn't on any of the descriptions or any of the any of the recordings. But i remember very very clearly um pointing him to some roman catholic writers that were contradicting what he was saying during the break.

And what was he muttered something along the lines of well that's the problem we have since the inquisition was outlawed or something like that. It's like oh okay all right there you go. Um i really think a papal statement on marian co-redemption would be opportune during the centenary of the fatima apparitions fastigi told the register.

That's a big thing right now is the fatima apparitions. Now again that's a whole other area. Um and i focus upon the dogmatic teachings primarily. But you gotta understand how many roman catholics really really really really really believe uh in apparitions and all sorts of stuff like that.

Uh and it ends up going off the rails all the time. But anyways in fact the document itself describes the marian apparitions at fatima as a powerful manifestation of our lady's co-redemption in action.

End quote. How did the idea of mary as co-redemptrix first come about the teaching of mary in cooperation with christ. And the role of redemption is there in sacred scripture explains fastigi. We need to see it through the eyes of faith.

And he added catholic teachings about mary have not shied away from her active role in the redemption of mankind. Lumen gentium for instance states that mary quote devote herself totally as a handmaid of the lord to the person work of her son under him and with him by the grace of almighty god serving the mystery of redemption rightly.

Therefore the holy father's see her as used by god not merely in a passive way but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. End quote. If vatican 2's constitution on the church touched on mary's role in the general work redemption why request a papal statement now quote.

Because there is a lot of confusion today said fastigi. Many catholics think vatican 2 wanted to downplay mary's role in the redemption of mankind. In fact even at vatican 2 there is a movement to request definition of the blessed mother as co-redemptrix.

But it was not the intention of the council to give a complete teaching on maryology that opened the door for another movement in the next century. About a decade ago five cardinals petitioned pope benedict the 16th to proclaim mary the spiritual mother of all humanity the co-redemptrix with jesus redeemer mediatrix of all graces with jesus the one mediator and advocate with jesus christ on behalf of the human race.

That's all a quotation. Though the pope did not make the requested statement he did refer to mary as mediatrix of all graces in a letter in the last year of his pontificate. This new request is word in such a way that fastigi said it is up to the holy spirit.

Catch that up the holy spirit. Let's be honest. Um you make this dogma and you don't believe revelation has ceased clearly this is a revelatory concept. There is no way you can stretch biblical teaching to say oh yeah that that's.

No no. Um it's up to the holy spirit. How pope francis might interpret it. He might make a formal statement or clarify how the church understands mary role as mary's role as cooperator in the work of redemption.

But will the request be successful this time. Will pope francis make a statement on mary as co-redemptrix. These things are often difficult to predict said fastigi pointing out that pope francis has a deep devotion to the blessed mother.

And that he also sometimes states things that are quote a little bit daring and quote uh yeah the blessed mother has a quantity of appellations and titles. And to catholics today they are familiar comforting.

And the farthest thing from controversy. Who for instance would argue against calling mary theotokos god bearer. A lot of people would. Um but centuries ago this title was a point of contention with some christians arguing that mary was the mother of the human christ as though his deity could be separated from his humanity.

Yes the initial argument uh nastorius uh clement of alexandria was about the nature of jesus at his birth. It wasn't about mary. The shifting of the focus from jesus to the nature of mary is unorthodox biblically speaking.

Um so theotokos has a perfectly orthodox meaning. As long as we're talking about jesus it falls off the rails becomes unbiblical when you change it to a discussion of uh the nature of mary. But perhaps future catholics will also look back on arguments about the title co-redemptrix with bemusement.

But in this moment said fastigi those of us who see the term as acceptable sometimes receive such strong reactions. First of all they're not used to the term. Second they misunderstand the term as if somehow christ couldn't redeem us on his own.

But that's nonsense yet. And after all god could have chosen another way to redeem the human race but he chose to associate mary in redemption as the mother of the redeemer. The funny thing is you have to ask the question from their perspective.

Um could mary have derailed this. And i actually saw a catholic answers uh video on this. I didn't didn't download it and watch it. Um but you know when you think this through this it really makes you ask ask the question.

So how come none of the apostles ever thought this was important enough to talk about it. How come none of the early church fathers i mean the farther down the road we get and the more utterly ahistorical unbiblical farthest from the minds of any of the apostles you can possibly get.

You get with this stuff. Just how far can you go before it just becomes so patently obvious that the whole claim that what you're holding to is based on scripture and tradition is is used car salesman jargon that that's all it is.

It has no meaning. There's no there's no reason to trust it anyway. Um additionally there's papal precedent for the title. Pope pious the 11th used the title mary co-redemptrix post pious the 10th approved a prayer with an indulgence attached to it referring to mary as co-redemptrix human race.

And pope john the paul's second used the title repeatedly. A statement on this title would actually help. Here's you can tell where he's going from would actually help ecumenism said fastigi for the separated brethren to see how we understand mary's spiritual motherhood.

So he knows that the the primary reason that this has not been defined is because it doesn't help the ecumenical movement at all. Uh so he's trying to cover that uh over. That's what cardinal telus for topo believes to a member of ima's theological commission.