California's Totalitarianism, Then Calls on Racialism, JWs, OT Scholarship, and Much More

Get up there And greetings welcome to the dividing line today.

We're just going to cover one one topic and then open the lines at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one haven't done that for a couple of programs and Everyone seems to like to do that for some odd strange reason

So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number

You know, it would have been smart of me to have actually Maybe Put the phones thing together before we got started, but we'll we'll take care of that as we go along Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one the topic that I somehow did not address

On the last program I've we covered enough don't you think that was there was there was a lot on that program

I I don't know when I started using the term It was a very long time ago

Well before we had video cameras in this room and I think before we started even before we even came over here while we were still doing stuff back at in my office someplace

Long long ago But the homosexual movement

I Used the term long ago. I said these folks do not want equal rights they want uber rights and We are most definitely seeing that today over and over and over again,

I mean you know when I first started utilizing that kind of terminology the idea of Profaning marriage and All the the gender identity stuff just wasn't even

Wasn't even on on the horizon for me anyways, and I don't think the vast majority of everybody else in this audience either and yet here we are and We are facing an incredible situation in our in our day and so a few weeks ago when

I saw an article about AB 2943

A bill in the California state legislature written by and submitted by Homosexual Assemblyman Evan Lowe You know you hear about this stuff and there have been times in the past when

You know We've we've heard of weird strange stuff being introduced and then it

Dies in committee or it doesn't pass or something and then you know It comes back the next year or the next year or the next year just keeps coming back until it's finally a thing

Well, you know when you first start hearing this you're like, well, that's what's gonna happen again but then it goes through committee and then it goes through the

House and it goes to the Senate and it goes to the Senate's and and of course in California There's no you're supposed to have some guy at the top that has some sense of what's right and wrong and What is not going to pass?

constitutional muster and things like that, but you don't have that in California, so There there really isn't there really

I can't see any controls in in California The assembly you have a one -party system and once you have one party rule that that party just could care less what not only what the other side is concerned about but What has been true in the past you get to you know again, it's

I Hate to keep telling people to do this But if for some reason you're one of the last people on the planet that have not read

Brave New World in 1984 both because we're sort of Mishmashing them together with a little

Fahrenheit 451 thrown in for the fun of it you need to read these things because that's where we are and Once you've got the all -powerful

State and this shouldn't surprise anybody as Christians. We should this is this is just such basic stuff when you when you concentrate power in the hands of one particular group

Given our biblical understanding of something called total depravity You know just just read the prophecy of Jeremiah and note his insight into the heart of man and then just put you know, but what we what we don't do is

We a lot of us that have just been taught we we read the Bible we have our faith and we we keep it over here and then we go over here and we talk about government and We've been taught.

Oh, you're supposed to do that. Yeah separation of church and state you see but the anthropology that we believe over here has to be just as true over there and So it was a good thing in the history of the

United States to diffuse power To spread it out even things like the

Electoral College actually had their initial root in Judeo -christian

Concepts of mankind you're diffusing power. You're you're putting blocks in the way of people who would

Seek to use their power to overthrow The very governmental system that was being put in place and so it shouldn't shock us really when we see someone like Evan Lowe and the homosexual lobby

And the totalitarian leftists, let's just call them what they are the communists The Marxists who are running the state of California Which by the way, they're now now collecting collecting signatures for Cal Exit and You know, everybody goes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's pretty much they thought when brexit started too. So Boy, I don't know what that would mean

It's fascinating to think about it I mean a lot of us have sort of wished the San Andreas Fault would just sort of open up and and California drift off to China where it belongs anyways as far as its politics go.

Sorry for those of you in California that are still Americans, but your state isn't that's for sure

Anyway, it does does make you make you think You know withdraw all the the

US government money and all the military and stuff out of California And and just watch what happens it's just I mean it'd be a disaster obviously

They couldn't defend themselves. They couldn't police themselves. They're already in so much debt. It's it's you know, they'd be bankrupt in three seconds

They are bankrupt But hey, you know sometimes you just see what's going on and and and Culturally, you just want yeah, you guys you guys go

Some place else float on up to Canada or something, you know Maybe we could you know get

Alaska to float down and take their place and become seafront property or something. That'd be nice.

Anyway The stuff going on and over there is is absolutely positively

Amazing to observe but it makes sense Once you have a one -party system no controls

Willingness to just thumb your nose at the at the Constitution and everything else. Hey, and that's what's gonna be happening everywhere.

I I Read it before I'm not gonna read it again, but You know

John Adams is right. The Constitution was designed for religious and moral people It is wholly inadequate to the governments of any other.

This is not a religious immoral people any longer I don't think the Constitution is gonna work in this situation.

I just don't I can't see how it can and what we're seeing in You know, we've been given a couple years respite with Justice Gorsuch but There's gonna be a wild -eyed socialist

Democrat in the White House before long and Every wild -eyed socialist

Liberal on the courts going to resign so as to be replaced by even wilder eyed folks and then the conservatives can't live forever and They will own the court.

They already own the justice system and All those protections that you've been you've been thinking are yours in the amendments first or second

You can't there's words on on a piece of paper once you no longer believe words have meaning once your your oath to protect and defend

Is to protect and defend only whatever you feel like protecting and defending Because I mean that's that's the whole thing today, isn't it for it for everything

You are whatever you think you are You can be a woman today and a man tomorrow and something in between and 48 different things and it's whatever's what's there

What's going on between your ears if that's all that that matters. There is no objective truth

That worldview cannot continue to uphold the

Constitution United States or any meaningful set of Western values at all it is incapable of Becoming anything but 1984 brave new world

Fahrenheit 451 craziness dystopian nuttery and now of course we have the technology

To make all of those books Look like child's play Come Lord Jesus is what

I think many of us are saying and so we see this this bill and We see very quickly

Right now what you're seeing are people saying no no no no it's not gonna mean this it's not gonna mean that we're not banning

The Bible we're not no it's not gonna mean this that and then the other side goes. Um have you read it well?

Yeah, I mean the author himself says it's not intended. How many how many times do we have to go through this?

You know when when when if we're gonna pass legislation on same -sex marriage No, one's gonna be that's not gonna force anybody to do anything and then six months later you're bringing cake bakers and Photographers up on charges and going.

Oh we said that I Remember saying that and it just happens over and over and over and over again, you know

We look at the situation with this poor child in in the United Kingdom All the death panels are come on you people.

You're just trying to scare people and then you end up with people in silly looking wigs saying that doesn't matter if Everything's been paid for to take this child someplace else for for medical treatment stuff.

That doesn't matter Just got just got to stay here and die That's the state

That's yeah, and this this the young generation is just going. Yeah, we like the state state goods

We we follow state state take care of us So what happens when you don't

I mean you these these people can't look 70 years in the past Or less.

I mean this in the in the in the case of of East Germany, for example, they can't look 25 years in the past 30 years in the past It's astounding.

It really really is and so it you know, we keep saying it's coming.

It's coming. No, it's here it is it is now a Situation where what's gonna happen?

Is this thing is going to become law and When you make something that is fundamentally immoral

Law Then you destroy the moral fabric of law and its power to curb evil and you turn law into something that actually

Encourages evil and That's what these people want to do anyways, that's their worldview to begin with So what's going to happen is very shortly after this

You are Going to have some event

You're gonna have a conference. You're going to have a speaker I mean,

I I'll be honest with you if if someone were to Say, you know, you know we for a long time we've tried to arrange a debate

Where Michael Brown and I would debate Dr. Brownson and another

You know Someone else who would Matthew Vines or something in a two -on -two debate on the subject of homosexuality

I don't know that that would be wise to do in the state of California I mean if what you want to do is actually do the debate and see the debate

Widely disseminated That might not be the place where you want to do it unless you want to be the person

Who is going to invest? Most of their waking moments for the next few years

Taking your case to the Supreme Court Risking what would happen over those next few years?

I mean, let's say and if you think this isn't a Possibility you're living in in in La La Land.

Let's say Two years from now a Younger Bernie Sanders is elected as president

United States And if you don't think that's not possibility, you're just like I said, you're just not even watching

You're not even thinking So Let's say your your court

Process has already started You've done something in California You've preached clearly from 1st

Corinthians chapter 6 you have told people that Jesus Christ can in fact deliver you from the sinful behavior of homosexuality and you've put that in a book at a conference and therefore it falls under the fraud legislation and you have been

Charged with a crime under AB 2943 and You have appealed and of course you've you lose in the

Ninth Circuit immediately, you know, you don't even bother. I mean just the Ninth Circuit is

You don't even don't even go there. Oh, well you have to I realize By the time it gets to the

Supreme Court It could be six three seven two Of people that I don't believe for a second could care less

What the Constitution says the Constitution is whatever they think it is there's already four people on the court pretty much that that's the way it is and So just takes one or two more and that's it that's it you lose and First Amendment's gone

Second Amendment will go right after it or before it one of the two they they're they'll sort of go together and There you go

So who's gonna do it? You know, I know of a Reformed Baptist Church right there in Sacramento a matter of blocks from the the black hole vortex of lunacy

Called the state legislature You know Don't don't for a second think that every

Bible believing pastor in the state of California Will not have it in the back of their mind and this is their this is their purpose

This is their reasoning. They are trying to chill the freedom the expression. They want to silence the other side

And if they can do it the easy way rather than the hard way they'll do it Is not thinking about these things when they

When they choose the texts are going to be preaching If they are doing a book study

When they get to Leviticus 18 Leviticus 20 Genesis 18 or 19

Romans 1 first Corinthians 6 first Timothy 1 The temple prostitutes sections in first second

Kings or whatever else it might be The thought is gonna cross their mind

Will I will I bankrupt my church in in seeking to defend itself simply for a single sermon and Obviously, there's a bunch of people that will go

I will do what I need to do, but there's a Big group of other people that are sort of a little bit more squishy.

They're gonna go No, I'm not even gonna think about it. And that way you you silence speech you you push it you push the narrative your direction and That's just all there is to it that's that's what's going on so We have prayed for many years

Lord protect us from evil men and women in positions of power and We continue to pray that But we recognize that when you live in a nation that is under the judgment of God When you live in a culture that is under the judgment of God that Those texts in for example

Hebrews you have not yet Resisted under the point of the shedding of blood you but you had they had already experienced the

Taking of their physical possessions and they they did so with joy So when the government shows up and padlocks your church you have no place to meet

Gonna gonna stand outside and rejoice There is a lot of prime real estate owned by Christian churches

Man, you just knock them buildings down. You could build some pretty cool condos or government buildings on top of those sites

You could make some make some make some money How are we going to respond to those things that's

That's really the question. It's AB 2943. I would you know, I saw a lot of people saying you need to contact the legislators in California why

It's a one -party system There's there's no there's no responsibility to the to the

Citizens the state of California. There's no moral or ethical foundation left

In this place why contact them? They they know that they have

I mean look at the people they keep electing to Congress They don't care it's irrelevant to them, you know, they may mark it down in a sheet someplace

But that's just well, there's another wacko. We're gonna have to get rid of someday You know, there's another person to put on the list of deportation or whatever else

Yeah, I don't know I don't know eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is

The phone number that you can call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's start taking some of our phone calls and let's talk with David in Chicago.

Hi David Good I'm a 33 year old

Hispanic and I really appreciate the discussion. You've been having on so -called radical race theory

And extremely helpful, you mean CRT critical race theory. Yeah, it's been extremely helpful your discussion

Over the last few podcasts Now the only time I've ever experienced explicit racism was about 17 years ago and other than the encountering the black

Hebrew Israelites Can we leave them out of the conversation they sort of they sort of tilt everything the wrong way

So we'll just leave them out. Hmm. Well, then again, you mean they do have the highest view count on your videos

It's been concerning to me to see sort of you know popular scholars such as Craig Keener at Purdue University Major publishers

IVP with the titles white white awake and myth of equality by Ken What's ma who was recently at Wheaton College on the same subject here?

Yeah, I read a book called Prophetic Lament by sung Chan raw where he states that for a white person to be reconciled to African -american that they would need to leave their church and become and come under the spiritual

Authority of a black pastor and this would go a long way into somehow reconciling themselves

But I just I don't know I just want to hear your comments on that as an aside it's like well

Yeah, I just panic. What would I what would I do if? where I I'm at a

Predominantly white church. I really doesn't come to my mind. Should I? Start bringing up grievances of the

Alamo or something. It just sounds this whole thing is just worth it And I I don't I don't know.

Well, I like to say I don't know what the Endgame is but I I think at least politically and socially

I know what the endgame is. That's the problem I have in the importation of these political social categories into the church is that It doesn't fit because it fundamentally contradicts the oneness we have in Christ the fact that these

Issues have been reconciled in Christ already and so if we're trying to say that this group needs to be in a constant state of repentance toward another group and Okay, how often how long is is it a one -time thing?

Is it a penance type thing? Just just what is it and I don't get answers to that.

And so, you know There are issues my Understanding I could be wrong about this my understanding in many of the major cities

For example, is that there is strong animosity between Hispanics and blacks in some of the in some of the gang groups and things like that So what happens if you end up with a well in our church?

we have black church members and we have Hispanic church members and should there be some kind of special pastoral

Application of seeking to make sure the Hispanic members and the black members are

Doing proper penance toward one another or something, you know I we've never even considered these things because we've always assumed it was a given that when you break bread together at the

Lord's table Everyone's seated at the same table and and all those things are under the blood of the cross and therefore there's there

Shouldn't be these divisions, but you do wonder exactly what it is is supposed to take place and so last week

I was directed to a book that was recommended by David Platt at t4g

To called divided by faith It's it's an older book actually interestingly enough.

I think it was 2002 somewhere around there Which doesn't sound very old to me, but you you know what

I mean and It's it's not a Christian book. I don't think the authors are

Christians in any in any fashion, but it was recommended to everybody as Being extremely enlightening on this subject.

And so I took the time. I bought it. I mentioned this in the last program I finished it up yesterday and you know, it's it's by sociologists.

So all of the solutions are Sociological there's no understanding of the gospel.

There's no understanding of reconciliation. There's no understanding of forgiveness. There's no understanding of regeneration There's no understanding of biblical anthropology

All those things are missing which obviously means it has very limited utility to Christians and yet it is one of the main books being suggested to people and part of the alleged solutions

Echo what you just said and that was one of the chapters talked about In they interviewed lots and lots of people and said so would you be in favor of this kind of means of Combating racialism or that kind of means and one of them was in essence a forced or governmental

Integration of neighborhoods and This was one of the things that was being suggested.

And so when you listen to what some of the Individuals within the church are saying then you're gonna hear what you just mentioned and that is well there needs to almost be a quota system and so if if you are a guilty if you're guilty of whiteness then the penance the proper thing that would show your penance would be to Put yourself under the authority of someone who doesn't have whiteness and I'm not sure if that Cleanses you of your whiteness or if it just shows that you have a proper

Understanding of the wrongness of whiteness. I I don't know. I'm not exactly sure how that works, but That kind of thinking is out there and I've I said a few weeks ago

In talking about this what my concern is is is if this is exported outside the

United States, this is a very American perspective and one of the things that really bugged me about the book was it it focused solely upon white black issues and I Live in Phoenix for crying out loud

So, you know, there's there's a huge Hispanic population here and you just you you just get used to it

It's not like it's I mean, that's what you grow up with that's what I've grown up with since I moved here in sixth grade and and you hardly even see it anymore as far as your your personal relationships with people go, but When you transport this outside the

United States to South Africa or other places It could create divisions that are not even there right now that no one even

Experiences where the churches are already so far past this That it's that it's not even funny and yet if you've got people like David Platt and and Chandler and and big big big names even

John Piper and Mark Dever and others Promoting these kinds of books and these kinds of concepts

Then it is gonna go out the outside the United States and could end up creating division where there currently isn't any

Because outside the United States there's evidently been a little more in the way of maturity in recognizing what the real basis of our fellowship in Christ is so I Don't know what the endgame is because this is primarily as a sociological political movement that Only has very radical

Concepts as its final outcome and it you apply it to the church and it makes no sense

There's it's destructive of the gospel. That's one of the things that's really concerning to people, you know, what's the endgame and how do

I even know? I reached the threshold of being reconciled. That's just answers that you'll never get but much appreciated for the response.

Okay. Thank you, sir. God bless Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Hmm. All right Jack in Kentucky hijack Hi, dr.

White, I just wanted to say before I start you have been such a blessing to me Personally, I've been listening to you for a few years now, and it's just been very edifying.

Well, thank you So About a week ago. I was reading I got a book called stories from ancient

Canaan and it has four texts I think they're called Bugharit text Which basically show the religion of Baal and the author who translated it is kind of making the argument that The Old Testament was a polytheistic text first And then sort of became a monotheistic text after being edited by later authors

And I just want to preface this that doesn't make any sense to me Given that Genesis kind of only makes sense in a monotheistic framework, but Oh Jack Jack Jack You're just being too simple here

Last night I went to Fuller seminary. So I've I've heard this for a long time Well since you went to Fuller What are the other major liberal claims about the

Old Testament and why do they have so much sway? we I've said a number of times we

Pretty much gave the Old Testament to the liberals about 150 years ago And there are still few good conservative

Christian scholars out there But even what used to be our trustworthy Christian publishers don't tend to look to them.

They tend to To look to others and that's why I've often said going into a Christian bookstore is one of the danger most dangerous places you can go

And the the commentary section is one of the most dangerous places you can go because you assume

Unfortunately wrongly that what you're gonna buy there is being written by Bible -believing people when in reality

So much of that material Comes from a very different worldview and that's especially true unfortunately of Old Testament scholarship today

And so the vast majority of Old Testament scholarship is based upon some form of the

JEDP Theory the graph Wellhausen theory Which all this stuff developed at the same time in out of German rationalism and and things like that.

It's a Application of naturalistic principles to the text of the Old Testament beginning with the assumption

That the New Testament writers and especially Jesus himself were all washed up and wrong about their view of the

Old Testament Even though many of those people would still call themselves Christians interestingly enough And so once you look at the

Old Testament text something is written by 40 different authors Oh, and of course from their perspective probably 400 different authors over Well, we would say 1 ,500 years they would say over maybe 500 years between maybe 200 to 700 is as far as as most of them would go

But once once you are free of any controlling authority that says you need to look at the

Old Testament as a whole you need to operate within the parameters of even

Jesus's own teaching about the Old Testament once you're free to Atomize it and cut it into parts then what

The limit there are no limits. And so when you say, you know, what else is out there everything?

I mean pretty much everything if you go and just scan the

Old Testament titles of Papers presented for the past five or ten years at SBL Society for biblical literature

Just look at the Old Testament stuff scan All you gotta do is you don't even have to read the papers. You just look at the titles of papers and you will

Sit there staring and drooling at the insanity That is that is

Old Testament scholarship today. I mean everything you'd expect intersectionality homosexuality this book as erotic literature in regards to Yahweh and other gods and Everything that you could ever find is going to be out there someplace because there are no rules so you can take any author you can take any book and You can just simply theorize that the form we have today

Was edited in this way this way this way in this way. You don't have to provide provide anything in As far as hard data is concerned because because we're talking about such ancient literature

You only have manuscripts back to the Dead Sea Scrolls. So anything before that?

Yeah, once in a while We'll find a scrap here a scrap there, but pretty much Once you push back past that point then you can just engage in theoretical reconstruction of anything

And that's how you get published. That's how you do your dissertations. That's how you get published You got to come up with something new you're if you're just simply trying to defend orthodoxy or say yeah

You know what what Christians or even Jews have always believed about this is actually true. It's gonna get you nowhere

So the very way we do scholarship in much of Western thought

The only thing that's gonna get published is something that's new and normally what's new is heretical

And so that's where it got started. That's where it continues. And so the idea that Well, I can tell you back in 1997 or 8

Richard Mao then president of Fuller Seminary Did a live thing this is really

Back in in in the day when when internet stuff was just starting he did a live thing and I actually asked him about the idea of Mormon because he's been big into dialogue with Mormons without really challenging

Mormonism in any significant way and I mentioned the monotheism in the Old Testament. His response was exactly what you read

Well, it wasn't originally in monotheistic text. It eventually became a monotheistic text

There are there are polytheistic texts in the Old Testament. There are henotheistic texts in the Old Testament Then you've you've got monotheistic texts, but the monotheistic texts are later on so you stratify the

Old Testament You've got the Yahwist, the Eloist, the Deuteronomist, the priestly, the JEDP sources and then of course since then you've you've had people introduce 47 other categories along with the

JEDP and so you can just chop it up into into bits and pieces and parts to do with it as you wish and So if you ask what else is going to be heading your direction pretty much everything

Because there's there's no controls on this either Once you abandon any type of meaningful understanding of what the

Old Testament is and certainly the idea of allowing Jesus to have the final say

Is is going to not be allowed in 98 .8

% of all Old Testament studies programs in the Western world today Hate to say that.

Didn't Alma bring up the polytheistic thing in y 'all's talk about who the real Jesus was? Yes All right, well on that, is there any like major specific things that liberals like at the base liberal scholars in the

Old Testament knows about this in particular theory and will launch it that way? Like I heard Deutero -Isaiah is like a big one.

Mm -hmm I'm not I'm not following the question. What about Deutero -Isaiah? Well, like that's a major theory that I know has a lot of sway.

Do all of these theories just get accepted like right away or Like what is the measure?

How do you how do these theories get? Well, I wish I wish

I could say that there is this fair Process of scholarly review that that keeps bringing these things up and things like that.

It doesn't work that way my experience is That if you go to a conservative seminary

You will unfortunately have to spend a lot of your time learning a lot about what the liberals believe

If you go to a liberal seminary, you will not spend a moment of your time

Learning about what people used to believe or what people continue to believe on the other side of the aisle you it's an echo -chamber complete echo -chamber

So think of think of the modern liberal University secular University echo -chamber and it's the same thing in liberal

Seminaries, and so it's not that there have not been Thorough and consistent critiques of this liberalism

From conservatives over the years. It's that the liberals don't read conservatives. They don't care what we have to say every liberal

I've ever debated John Shelby Spong John Dominic Cross and Marcus Borg Bart Ehrman.

Well, he's not really a liberal. He's an agnostic but Didn't had not even googled my name

I had never read a word that has said because they don't believe that there we have anything meaningful to say and So it's a one -way street.

And so if you were trained in a liberal seminary, it's all you've ever heard It's it's just a given in your mind that This is the

Enlightenment view this is what we've come to know and the other guys on the other side are just closing their their minds and of course they can point to some of the fundamentalistic responses and some fundamentalistic type schools where They have the same attitude in reverse.

You don't read anything from a liberal That'll that'll you know cause you to grow horns and read something other than the

King James. So they use those extremely rare Examples of that and then do not interact with the entire spectrum of believing

Evangelical scholarship reform scholarship that has responded to these things and so there just isn't a whole lot of communication going on and that's why it becomes our responsibility to Educate ourselves on these issues and to think presuppositionally to examine

What is being said what we're being told? Presuppositionally and be able to identify

The foundational assumptions. I think that I think I can pretty certainly say now after all these years that that's why

The Lord had me go to Fuller seminary is that's where I learned to do that. I had to there was no other game in town

Did not have the money to go anyplace else the ministry was already started had a had a kid on the way

That was all I could do and It wasn't fun and it wasn't enjoyable in the sense that it might have been to go to some place where I would have had more

Consistency with the viewpoints of the professors and things like that by the way, I had some conservative profs because I went to the

Phoenix Extension, so I'm not saying everybody was like that, but I did have to learn to Listen and Evaluate and to do so presuppositionally

Dig out the gems and throw away the dross and We all have to do that today

All right Last question. Do you know any conservative Old Testament? Scholars who actually deal and with and take apart these things because I'm just not familiar with them

Could you like direct me toward them because I would really well There there are books it depends on what you're talking about you got to remember that Most of the time in most of scholarship if for example, if you're looking at JEDP, then you're gonna find

Articles they're gonna deal with elements It trying to find books is is difficult.

You're generally focused upon finding articles you if you if you look into Some of the conservatives like Gleason Archer and people like that.

They will have bibliographies Everybody needs to learn how to mine You know when you find a really good book on a on a related subject

Then mining it that is its bibliography and its footnotes or end notes depending on the form is that is just a extremely important skill to be able to To find your your resources in that way

I do I know where in the other room I have some various books

Related to this but off top my head I'd have to go digging them up and and drag them out to give you some specifics, but if you if you go to Some of the current

Now remember I could I could you know, I could say hey go to Such -and -such seminary find out who's teaching

Old Testament there look at their books, but you'd be surprised If I mentioned even some seminaries that we would have general

Agreement with especially the Old Testament Department, you've got to be really careful So You know, but but places like masters you know you you talk to their

Old Testament people and They're gonna they're gonna be able to you know Their books are gonna be where you're gonna find the bibliographies that are you give you?

And of course their bibliographies are going to include liberal sources because they study liberal sources

But the footnotes and the quotes especially are where you'll be able to find a lot of the good stuff I had a student

Did a master's with me in Columbia. I was his mentor a number of years ago

Colin Smith that did a real good paper on the JEDP stuff, which I Think we posted.

I'm not sure Did we put Colin Smith's? JEDV paper on the on the blog.

I don't I don't remember Rich is looking so we'll we'll see but that's the best way to find that kind of information

All right. Well, thank you so much. It is there an honor speaking to you Okay, it is there by the way, if you is what's the title of it?

Does it have JEDP in it? Well, I just Went to this site went did search on JEDP and that's what popped up first critical assessment of the graph

Walthausen documentary hypothesis Colin Smith is the author. Okay, good.

So you put a JEDP in at ailment org the search thing. You should be able to pull that up Okay. Thank you so much.

It's an honor speaking with you. All right. God bless There's something wrong with your microphone. There is a there was a pretty strong In your thing there so anyway, let's press on here cuz

Three calls 15 minutes. We can probably pull it off Let's talk to Jeremy in North Carolina, huh,

Jeremy good afternoon. Dr. What good and toxic gates it's even

Before before I Speak I want to preface by echoing what

Jack said and pretty much everybody else Your ministry has been a tremendous blessing to me and I want to thank you for being obedient to God and Doing the work that he has laid out before you

My quick question and it may be a very quick one on John 20 28

Your debates that you've done in Islam You know how it says my

Lord and my God well That that has come up in and I can't remember which one as a

Explanation for the deity of Christ and My question is

By them acknowledging that he said that are they are they not?

acknowledging that Christ was resurrected or you know Because they say that he wasn't crucified

Or are they just equivocating on that point for the sake of argument on on the topic at hand?

Well, there really isn't a consistent Islamic Approach on this they will on the one hand

Quote from the Gospel of John and they will quote from John 14. They'll quote from John chapter 16 in regards to the

Comforter and identify that with Muhammad as long as something can be used in defense of Islam They'll they'll quote from it.

But even for example when they quote Jesus's words of that day and now or no, no one knows

Not not the angels in heaven nor the Son But the Father only even though from their own perspective

Jesus would never have uttered those words because Jesus would never identify himself as a son. So it's more of a rhetorical device

That they would be utilizing but I'm interested. I mean, I've certainly brought up John 20 28

I don't remember a a Muslim bringing it up They may have but I know okay.

I'll take that back. I was thinking of the real serious ones there Okay, I know what you're referring to now

Yeah, the the fellow who tried to say That there's a distinction between my lord my god

Yeah, okay. That was yeah Yeah, that's that unfortunately

There are there are well -read Muslim apologists and then there are really not well -read

Muslim apologists And that was a example of that. I'm afraid so I do recall that now.

I think I know who you're referring to Has has Shabir ever? Have you ever gone with him on that topic or I'm drawing a blank.

Yeah We have of course addressed the deity of Christ in a number of different contexts

I off the top my head I'll go my in our chat channel. I remember what exactly what should be said but I don't

I don't listen to my debates over and over again like I'll go does so I Don't I would be surprised if Shabir would attempt at least in debating me to To go there because if you recall in our first debate

I I caught him In not knowing what the what the

Greek was and making an argument that he had made for years and in reality He was misrepresenting the original text and as you remember what he said was well

If you're correct about that, then I concede the point and now I have more more reason to learn

Greek So I think he he knows better I think than to try to go at Greek grammar with someone who's taught the language for a few years, so So I don't remember us going back and forth on my assumption would be since he and I have debated whether Jesus is prophesied

And I'm sorry, whether Muhammad is prophesied in New Testament and he takes

Extremely liberal perspectives to where oh, well, you know We can sort of take John 14 and 16 out and it was written at a different time and it has different meaning

And so you don't have to worry about what it actually means here there Yeah, then you probably do the same thing with John 20, but I don't know

Alright one more question for you real quick. I Have recently come out of A For lack of a better term non -reformed

I was born and raised a freewill Baptist and You know,

I held strong to that autonomy of man's will and it was through your debate that God revealed the beauty of reformed theology, but I still attend a freewill

Baptist Church mainly because The the pastor does

I mean he preaches the word and I find it consistent on most points other than you know, the who so ever the the

John 316 thing and you know Pleading for for the will of man to to come down, you know when he's totally unable but unless the the

Spirit of God moves, but How how do you how are you able to know whether or not you need to Seek out a different congregation when it comes to Like I know that that might be considered an important thing, but yet still adiaphora

But how do you differentiate between those well, you know, that's gonna that's really gonna depend on Your Situation for me as a person who was already teaching and writing there was more of a pressure upon me to have consistency

Between what was being preached from the pulpit and what I was saying in classes even within the church

If you're not teaching then you don't have the same level of pressure upon you at that at that particular point

But You also have to think about the implications that the theology has in regards to pastoral counseling death the graveside there there are a lot of of Implications aside from you know, how you do evangelism how you do apologetics there

There are a lot of of things and so it also depends on whether there are other options

Available to you that would be more consistent in their exegesis and our theological perspectives

Within a reasonable distance that you would be able to be actively involved in that church

So it really depends on a number of factors And as I've said to many other people who have called in on that subject

However, it works out it needs to be a situation where It's it's very prayerfully handled and very

Seeking to do so in a very gracious manner, especially if you do end up leaving a fellowship that that's very very difficult to do and oh, yeah, your ultimate goal is to to do it in such a way that That Christ is is glorified in that but that can be extremely extremely hard because many people will interpret your

Desire to go elsewhere as a personal front against them and their their ministry in your life, and it's it's a minefield

There's no two ways about it The distance thing is a major issue.

I live out in the sticks So I've been you know Looking online at a bunch of different churches and reading their statements of faith and you know seeing where they match up theologically with with my understanding and The closest closest one is, you know over an hour

Hour or so drive that I think would would fall under the reformed

Baptist category, right? Yeah, that is believe me.

You wouldn't be the only person driving that far. There are a lot of people that do do that And there there are things you can do on long trips like that Good time to listen to other sermons and things like that, but all depends you know it depends there are a lot of people that are just simply don't have a a close by fellowship that need to I Still highly recommend they be involved in a fellowship up to the point where their conscience doesn't allow them to Be able to do so and that that all depends on the situation you're in so we'll we'll hope that a

Worker will start up even closer by to you All right.

Well, I do I do appreciate You taking the time and thank you also rich for working behind the scenes and Y 'all have a wonderful evening.

All right. Thank you. All right. God bless All right, let's

I was only gonna take two more calls and I don't think you heard that so you you you took a new a new call after that but Huh?

No, well, well, we'll try to get everybody if you've put somebody on hold for nine minutes. We'll try to get to him. So Let's talk to David hi,

David Hey, dr. White, thank you for taking my call. You're most welcome

Hey, I had a question about the Holy Spirit Um So I came from a come from a oneness

Pentecostal background. I'm young. I'm a college student. I I live here in Charlotte and Like the other day my brother confronted me for not attending a oneness

Pentecostal Church anymore And he asked me some pretty hard questions about you know, the Holy Spirit I think

I was able to answer most of them based off of what I've learned so far The whole tongue the whole tongue thing didn't happen for me and Now I understand why it didn't happen for me.

Um, but he um, he was more confronting me based off of his own His girl, but basically asked me are our angelic tongue biblical and Does the

Bible ever mention angelic tongues and I told him that the only time it was mentioned was in 1st Corinthians 13 But I don't believe that's what happened in Acts chapter 2

Right, and I didn't know how how to further answer the question myself Well now

I'm a little confused because the the topic here said the Holy Spirit, but it sounds more like This is in reference to like the

UPCI belief in the necessity of speaking in tongues to be saved or is

Yeah, yeah, so they so basically they teach that that you have to speak in tongues or you haven't read the

Holy Spirit, right? well, they're not unfortunately, they're not the only ones that teach that but There there are a number of others.

It's obvious when Paul in 1st Corinthians 12 says Not all speak in tongues.

Do they the Greek construction that is used there? Expects the answer that that's correct.

Not all speak in tongues I'm going to have to have a little discussion with the young man who keeps trying to FaceTime me thinking.

I'm one of his friends That's what's going on there Anyway, sorry about that So you have the direct statement right there in the discussion of the gifts and things like that that Not all speak in tongues now

I would imagine that those who teach that are aware that it says that and they'll try to contextualize that passage and and and say well

That's in this context that context but the oh It's just it's just the basic statement in regards to the gifts of the

Spirit that not all experience this So you have that direct statement the other thing to keep in mind and I won't have time to develop it right now but you can find a number of discussions of this is

I think when you look at the purpose of The the gift of tongues as it's laid out in Paul's discussion, especially when you look at his citation from Isaiah as To what the purpose of tongues is

You will see that it had a specific application at a specific time and That is why someone such as myself would be a person who believes that certain gifts of the

Spirit specifically apostolic sign gifts that had a Specific association with the

Apostles and a purpose in their ministry when the when the

Apostleship ends When there aren't any further Apostles Then the result of that is going to be that those gifts

Do not continue. All right, and so hey, dude, you got the wrong number

Thank you The Kid looks like he's about nine.

So nine nine to eleven and obviously he's trying to call his friend. Sorry about this But that's we are so connected these days that's also how my grandkids call me so I I loathe to You know, you know, it's life today

You know that I I don't want to not have little January be able to call me and babble at me from Las Vegas Just because some kid with spiked hair can't type the proper number on his on his touchscreen anyway

So back to the subject you can tell these are live programs and they're not edited.

Yes, indeed We're professionals here So when you when you look at the purpose that Paul lays out in in regards to tongues being a sign to the people of Israel Regarding the fact that Judgment has come upon them.

Well, that's only gonna be relevant up to a certain point in time. And so you combine those two and You have the basis for my understanding that that particular

Aspect of the Spirit's ministry is not continuing in the church today It does not follow as some people have taken it that the

Holy Spirit is not active in the church today Or the Holy Spirit does not give gifts to his people he does but those are ministerial gifts they are gifts in regards to the continuing ministry of the

Word of God the things that continue to keep the church alive and growing and I believe the Holy Spirit is extremely active in conforming the people of God the image of Christ and and and all the things that are associated with that, but I think that the idea of angelic tongues

You'd have a real hard time I think Substantiating any concept of that. I think some of that comes from a misunderstanding of Romans chapter 8

And groanings that cannot be uttered But the idea I and probably is tongues of men and angels

Taking a illustration that Paul used and expanding it way out beyond anything that he would have intended

That's the the problem is that there isn't you know When you do have

Paul specifically teaching on this subject There is nothing that that can be really fairly in a soundly exegetical way

Expanded out to mean those things that doesn't mean people won't do it and they they have done it and that becomes a tradition that becomes

Read back into the text and especially in in charismatic Pentecostal circles Right, right

Okay, yeah, I think that answers my question a little bit well a little bit anyways Okay, thanks, all right god bless

All right, two more calls Let's talk to Zach hi

Zach Hi, dr. White. You're not the one calling me on FaceTime. Are you? No, of course.

I'm 24. I'm not Um, so but uh first I would like to also echo as everyone else has and said thank you to rich and you as well

Of course. Well, are you telling your buddy? How much you paying them as your screen the calls rich to uh to say that huh?

You don't like three words But thank you guys, of course so much for your guys's obedience and seemingly tireless ministry, of course

Uh, but you've never seen us taking naps around here. So you better not talk about Well, you guys in my mind all you guys do is this and debate and bike

But biking is what I'm preparing to do this part so that's that's how that works. Yeah So my question is that um,

I've been dialoguing with a Jehovah Witness recently and this Monday We're meeting again And she has asked me prepared to prove that the

Trinity is a biblical thing And my question to you is is that you had two to three hours to discuss the

Trinity with a Jehovah Witness How would you go about it? What would you go to or what would you stay away from maybe here?

It wouldn't be it wouldn't take two or three hours. Oh, that's good. No it well obvious I mean you can you you can invest a huge amount of time

On the subject and you can answer all sorts of questions. And if they're willing to do it, that's great Just keep in mind of the fact that there is a very strong Controlling tradition in these folks minds that will even keep them from Acknowledging any kind of Meaningful point that you make so don't expect to see it

But don't let that discourage you either because while I would assume you're not meeting alone with this person

We we are I take Spanish classes from them and so we meet usually before Spanish class a little beforehand

And then we go into going to Spanish a little bit later. Just one person Yes, oh that's interesting because Jehovah's Witnesses Certainly when they go door -to -door, they always go minimally two by two

And so it's a little unusual because see they recognize there's a danger there because when they've got two the one can always keep the eye on the other and And that's one of the ways that's one of the reasons they do this is to is to keep that group think going

And then the one can see it the other starting to go. Oh, that's interesting. Then they they shut it down So that's actually a good thing that that that's actually a positive thing, but you know, we'll we'll we'll see where that where it goes from there, but a

Number many years ago. I've told the story before many years ago. I was invited over someone's home to Talk to some

Jehovah's Witnesses that were coming over and three elders Came on a Saturday morning.

And what I did is I was just straight up front with them I said, hey, you know, I I I teach seminary.

I Have written books on this subject that subject I teach Greek Hebrew that that that that and I teach apologetics

And so I've done many lectures on what you guys believe could I Lay out for you what you believe and you tell me if it's accurate and they're sort of like okay, and it's pretty unusual and So I just went through used all their language.

I mean I could have been in the theocratic ministry school thing, you know Just just going Going through the whole thing and they were blown away because I gave a very very accurate full discussion of Who is

God what they believe about Jesus Michael the Archangel Holy Spirit? 144 ,000 1914 back then

Etc. Etc. And then having basically earned a

Few minutes I said now That's what you believe. I'd like to explain to you.

What what I believe and So they couldn't say no at that point. And so what

I did is I Presented to them the one

Subject that Jehovah's Witnesses have no meaningful Responses to and that is the strongest clearest

Texts that Demonstrate that Jesus in distinction from the

Father is identified as Jehovah You can argue about Jesus being called

God or a God until the cows come home Yeah, Jesus is

Jehovah, that's the end of the argument and that's the end of the story and so I What I did is

I the first text that I walked them through was I went to Psalm 102 in their

Bible had them read verses 25 to 27 and Then I asked them some questions and I said

Would this be true of anyone other than then then Jehovah and go ahead and use

Jehovah Don't even argue about Yahweh and all the rest. That's right. It's not it's not not worth it at this point Is there anyone other than Jehovah who is unchanging the all of creation he will

Roll it up like a garment and it will be changed and his years are never -ending But everything he creates grows old, but he never grows old.

This is the immutability of Jehovah God Is this true of any? One other than Jehovah God and they agreed

No It's only Jehovah is eternal and immutable and and so on and so forth and I said, okay

With that in mind and they were a little bit They will be intrigued most will be intrigued by a

Christian who not only is talking about Jehovah But is talking about the immutability of Jehovah from Psalm 102 and doesn't mind if they read from the

New World Translation the process Keeping that in mind. I then went to Hebrews chapter 1 and Had them read verses 10 and following which as you know is

If you go back to verse 8 and of the Sun he says then verse 10 begins and so this is of the

Sun And it's the exact same words quoted from the Greek Septuagint of Psalm 102 25 27

Which they had already agreed could only be of Jehovah God And So you got to start at Psalm 102 before you go back there or that provides wiggle room

So you you got to get them to close the back door before you you walk into that room.

And so At that point now you could run into some

Jehovah's Witnesses who have heard some of this before it's rare but it's possible but the vast majority have never been presented something like this before and So what you do is

There is there is an awkward moment after they finish reading

Hebrews chapter 1 when they realize and in fact the New World Translation in the

Big brown version their their reference edition. I've got down there. I'm not gonna do here right now, but in the reference edition

Will have a cross -reference there in Hebrews 1 back to Psalm 102 so even their own reference edition will will tell them that's what's being quoted and There's an awkward moment where you have a decision to make you can either press your advantage get out your theological sword and run them through And go aha.

Mr. Jehovah's Witness. I've gotcha or You can leverage that moment and say now

I can't ask you to answer that right now I've never seen it before. I'd like you to take a look at it. But could

I show you one other and I've never had somebody say no so what you do is instead of What most people say, you know push your advantage and push through and you know get some theological blood on your sword

Instead you take the opportunity you've now purchased for yourself a few more minutes to get a little more truth across because that's the problem is

The Watchtower has hours to give them untruth. You have minutes to give them truth. So you need as much as you can get and So what

I did is I then presented to them the parallel I very similar parallel between What you have in John 12

Where John quotes from Isaiah 6 Isaiah's temple vision and Then in verse 41 says these things

Isaiah said because he saw his glory and he spoke about him And then take that back to Isaiah chapter 6 who did who did

Isaiah see in Isaiah 6 and Isaiah 6 1 I saw the Lord Sitting and lofty and lifted up and and there's more to it than that.

Do you have my book the Forgotten Trinity? I do. Yes. Okay, if you if you look up John 1241 now, by the way, if I'm recalling correctly

Sadly, the Forgotten Trinity didn't have a scripture index in it when it was first published someone created one and it's on our website

So if you if you search the a omen org for the Forgotten Trinity the

I know that we posted At some point in the past the scripture index so you can track it down that way if you need to but If you have it electronically then it's it's right.

It's right there Anyways, but note the footnote that I have on that there is an end note on that that gives you more information

It actually strengthens the argument. I just don't have time to get to it today Check that out. And and then again you know at that point you can say so, you know, the point is

I believe in the Trinity because The Father is identified as Yahweh.

The Son is identified as Yahweh The Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh And so we've got one name

Yahweh or if you want to use Jehovah That describes the being of God and you and I agreed the

Father Son Spirit are not the same person You don't believe this spirits person we could get into that We could talk about how the Spirit wills and does things that only person can do but the point is that the reason

Christians believe in the Trinity is we have one God Yahweh and We have three persons who are distinguished from one another each described as Yahweh and believe me if you can just Communicate that much you have done more for that person than probably anybody at any door in in all their years of Going door -to -door have ever done for them.

So That's that's where I'd start. That's where I'd go. Awesome. Perfect. Beautiful.

Thank you so much. Dr. White for your time All right. God bless Come on, all right last call you you

Michael you snuck in there I had actually said no more calls and rich decided to have some level of Mercy upon you.

So there you go Hello, how you doing, dr. White doing good.

Well, I have a question I just got your book The Forgotten Trinity. I'm loving it.

I'm actually in the part where You're breaking down John chapter 1 My question is

I've also been listening to your Study in Hebrews. Mm -hmm and sermon index or sermon audio.

Mm -hmm and You know, my question is actually

About Hebrews 6 4 to 6 and 10 26 to 31

You stated that The big sin there was bringing the sacrifice to the temple correct, well that both in Hebrews as well as in 1st

John and 2nd John what 1st John especially chapter 5 the the ultimate act of apostasy in the early church would be the offering of The sacrifice the cursing of Christ.

This was what was required for a person to enter back into the

The fellowship having left it to become a Christian and that this was the great pressure that was being placed upon the

Jewish believers at that time period to come back to the old ways and the whole point of the book of Hebrews is there there is no there's nothing to go back to and so that normally is the specific act that is in view in regards to The denial of Christ by a person of Jewish lineage going back into fellowship with the

Jewish people Okay, so my question is What of Acts 21 where Paul, you know offers for annual, you know pays for annual salaries

Yeah, those weren't those weren't sin offerings. He brings a It's an Acts 21 where he brings

You know Doesn't Nazarite bow, I believe right those weren't sin offerings.

So there were these were there's a lot of discussion of this I mean, there's certainly area of Inquiry as to exactly what this means as to the freedom of a

Christian to participate in For example the Jewish feasts and things like that at that time period when the temple was still standing

But what was not offered was a sin offering The Nazarite vow Was a very different thing and did not involve the offering of blood sacrifice for sin and and I mean there you you could have done

Nazarite vow where things like that would Have been happening, but the the specific vows that were being taken that he participated in as evidence of his continued

Faithfulness to the people of Israel would not involve saying well,

I need to Sacrifice an animal on the altar for the forgiveness of sins or it would not have involved

Anything in regards to whether you did or did not confess that Jesus Christ was the Messiah the specific element of What was discussed as the the sin of apostasy that I was just mentioning?

Was the offering of a sacrifice? specifically in Regards to the denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ There's nothing like that even related to that in anything that would be going on in regards to the

Nazarite vow. So You know there there are people still have Serious problems as to why there would be any

Participation in the temple precincts at all, even though obviously you go back to the beginning of Acts and Why are

Peter and and John going to the temple to pray? There's sacrifices being offered while they're praying there.

Well Because they'd always gone to the temple to pray and they weren't offering sacrifices that in any way

Yeah, they weren't offering sacrifices in any way would say that there was a something that could be added to what

Jesus Christ did So it's the nature of those vows. That's different in regards to what was being demanded of those who were apostatizing from Christianity Okay.

Yeah, I was just curious about that because it says that you know Paul offered gifts as well as for these other four men.

Yeah, I took the vow with yeah But it wouldn't be it wouldn't be in regards to sin. So Okay Okay, that's it.

All right. Thanks Michael. Thank you very much, sir. All right. All right. Thanks, brother All right, excellent calls as always great audience that we have that listens to the program and hopefully those

I want to I want to hear what I want to hear what happens with the with the

Jehovah's Witnesses, so let us know if You know, I I'm pretty sure there's an article

Isn't is is Jesus Yahweh Isn't that one of the articles the one of the classic articles we have

On on the website is Jesus Yahweh. It not only is

The noise you're hearing it not only is But we just reproduced it.

We just reformatted it and and sent it out in the newsletter two weeks ago Well, maybe the fellow who called then might want to call back and and get hold of that Specific all

I have to do is that phrase that you just mentioned But I I want to make sure since he has a forgotten

Trinity make sure to look at every Endnote in that chapter

Because there is an extended end note on Isaiah 6 1 and the Greek Septuagint textual variant

That's very important there that helps to Solidify the argument that I didn't get into in the presentation

So just want to make sure that that information is there So the last three the is

Jesus Yahweh was three weeks ago last week was prototic us. Mm -hmm

And then this week's was they audit us? Oh, okay So yeah, the last three then would be really on target is full along those lines.

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah All right. Well, there you go a little bit of everything for everybody as we always have

We open the phones it it can it can get that way but Appreciate your joining with us today.