Former Cru Intern Shares Story about Ministry's Leftward Drift

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to conversations that matter podcast. My name is john harris and i am joined today by scott willis who is or was a crew intern for two years

00:11

At the university of florida and he is going to share his story of what he saw from the ground up Inside crew and so scotty you have worked for crew or at least you you interned with them for two years

00:27

And I just want to bring um our audience up to speed real quick With what's going on at crew and then i'm going to give you the floor.

00:33

So a few weeks ago A video came out a montage of some of the speakers and what they were saying at crew 19

00:39

Which was a staff conference for crew and since then, uh, some other things have been dug up um, not just by myself, but by others who have shown that crew is sliding as a

00:51

Organization into not just social justice, but that whole panoply like going soft on homosexuality and Just a bunch of stuff came up And so i've done

01:02

I think three videos now where i've talked about some of this and there's been a reaction within crew and so, um,

01:08

I think the most notable thing is uh sellers who is Uh, the vice president of crew put out a letter to their donors and I guess it went out to staff as well

01:17

It was to their supporters though as my understanding and he tried to Sort of combat some of the things that have been said about crew

01:24

But all that's really been said is what crew saying is just you know, here's the video you can watch it for yourself here's clips of people on staff at crew saying things and so um scott

01:34

I really want to i'm very curious to hear your perspective on this and i'm sure Everyone watching this is as someone who was involved with crew

01:42

Um, what is going on in crew tell us a little bit about your experience there

01:47

Um, and is it sliding towards social justice? And if so on what level?

01:54

Um, well, first of all, I want to say that I was an intern for just two years and I worked.

01:59

I Was involved as a student Um that that does mean that my experience is somewhat limited.

02:07

Um But I think That my experience plus everything that you've said everything that i've heard others complain about both current and former staff members

02:20

I think my experience fits in with that. So what i'm hoping to do is to share my little slice of the pie and Sort of show how it corroborates um

02:30

I I think there definitely seems to be a move towards social justice and I I think there are two

02:39

Sorts of people that I've found or that I personally experienced um in in my time with crew either ones who were very much into the ideas of oppression and oppressed intersectionality

02:55

Etc. Or you had people who simply followed along Or of course you also had people who didn't agree.

03:01

Um, or who mostly ignored it, but There's definitely a movement that I experienced toward Imbibing that cultural narrative of This certain sector of our society is a victim this certain group is a victim ethnic group

03:21

Or gender in the case of women that there was some of that too um, yeah, there's

03:28

Definitely in my experience seems to be a lurch toward that and but it's not just crew I mean other people have pointed out.

03:34

It's the pca. It's the sbc is A gospel coalition a lot of different organizations

03:40

So, yeah, that's a good point. I wanted to ask uh, and I I do want to hear your story I want to hear some of the things that you saw and the in the evidence for Why you're saying that it is taking that turn, but I want to ask you this

03:51

I've had a number of crew staff members reach out reach out to me. Um on social media email and the theme that I keep hearing is

04:01

Don't tell anyone who I am. I can't talk publicly You're the only person that i've talked to who's a former crew staff

04:08

Who's been or and and technically I know you said you're not you weren't on staff. You were an intern, but I mean Very very similar.

04:14

It's just a limited two -year position They can do the same thing as a staff person does during that two years

04:20

So you're the only person that was a staff member or an intern who's been willing to actually come On camera publicly and talk about these things.

04:27

Why is that? How come Staff members are afraid to talk about what's going on inside crew well,

04:34

I think Some people I had mentioned there are two groups either those that are really really promoting it or if you just go along with the

04:41

Flow, I think a lot of people aren't aware that there's any disagreement um especially among the interns or younger staff

04:49

I think Certainly in my experience. There are some that Simply this is what they've heard and they accept it because it's coming from trusted authorities that that's the impression i've gotten um

05:01

Also, I mean it's really hard to talk against your boss. Um, yeah, I get that yeah, definitely the backlash from friends or co -workers,

05:12

I mean I felt that to a I mean a limited degree because i'm really not all that important as a person but um

05:19

I definitely experienced that. I mean I posted several times on my facebook. Uh, pointing out like There are alternative viewpoints

05:28

Crew seems to be going in this direction. Not just crew but again that litany of other organizations and I got dogpiled um every time

05:38

I did um, so there there's A lot of mentality where Basically follow in line

05:50

Don't go against the team um, I I think that Leads to people not wanting to speak out people don't want to jeopardize their jobs and their livelihood

06:01

Or the ministries that they've worked really hard um to to build up I mean I think of staff people that I know who definitely don't agree with this but Don't want to jeopardize what they're doing because what they're doing is is good and they can more or less do it independently um

06:16

There are people who are able to get around um the social justice stuff just because it's promoted from the top doesn't mean that everyone is

06:25

Promoting it themselves that you can still Get sectors of crew and of course there's other organizations where you just don't hear it.

06:34

Um uh yeah, I think a lot of people are also concerned or This is what

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I heard from The people that I know could be different for other people But they're concerned that if crew has too much negative publicity

06:49

That it would hurt either their supporters or their parents supporters or their friends supporters And that they would lose funds um, i've heard that I I don't really find that a convincing reason not to speak out.

07:03

Um, I I think The new testament paradigm is that those who are promoting false doctrine are the ones who are divisive

07:11

Not those who point out the false doctrine. That's right If there are financial repercussions, which is unfortunate for people who

07:19

Aren't going the wrong way I mean there can be collateral damage sometimes and that that I would want to minimize that and encourage people not just to pull out their funds um, talk to your ministry partners first definitely, but At some point if there is

07:36

There are repercussions for people that's big cruise fault That's the people who are actually promoting these ideas

07:43

But I think those are some ideas that would or reasons that would lead people not to want to speak out So what what did you see then when you were interning with crew for those two years?

07:54

Uh on the local national state level what you know all three of those things What did you notice that prompted you to think wow this organization as a whole seems to be moving this way um well

08:08

I'll get to the local team last and when I do I I don't intend to like share Personal names just because I don't think it's right to pick on individual private individuals um understand but Definitely at both of the winter conferences.

08:22

I went to in the southeast And the way they described the regions has shifted over the past few years because they just did a massive reorganization um

08:32

But that played a significant role Um just this past december We had a pca

08:40

Pastor get up and he preached from nehemiah the the section of nehemiah that's on the covenant renewal ceremony um, and he talked about white privilege and talked about how you know people that Complain that this is just a political thing.

08:56

They're they're just irritating him and Then I think went to Twist the passage by reading himself in in modern um

09:05

Sociological ideas into the passage that that's another reason why it really irritates me because it's not faithful exegesis

09:12

Um of the biblical text. It's really reading modern ideas then um the winter conference before that, um we

09:21

Toward the end there was a giant panel not we had the giant stage with a

09:27

Large audience and there were several people on on the stage in this panel. Um a two young black women an asian woman and a hispanic woman and a white guy um, and you can guess which one was doing the

09:44

I just need to listen. I just need to Hear what they're saying. I'm right I'm the one who's like has the power and I want to give that up That was very very clear.

09:55

Um, and I thought it was very unfortunate Um Both for those young women because they don't have to be victims.

10:03

Um, that's I think really the the mentality is subversive to human dignity on both sides

10:12

But that that happened in it. Those weren't the only things at winter conference. There are positive things. There are wonderful speakers at both of them, but This is something that's coming in It's not the only thing that's going on with crew there's a lot of good which is why

10:27

I'd say I really want to push back because This isn't cruise legacy and I don't want it to be right.

10:35

There's great work That yeah, and we don't want that either Yeah, I don't want that. I this is more of a warning to say go this direction.

10:43

Um, Because we love you and you've done some good things not Let's destroy the organization and yeah,

10:50

I think maybe that's being misunderstood by some of those in leadership there I've seen some of those posts by well

10:57

Damage control. Um, and that experience on a really small level um, but Scott you just mentioned, um two winter conferences and what years do you remember what years those were that you're talking about?

11:10

The last december and then the december before. Oh, okay And The the videos are online if you want to go find all the speakers

11:17

Okay, and the other panel was it was what subject was that panel supposed to be talking about that?

11:23

They got into this weird conversation The entire theme of the the winter conference was supposed to be on world missions um, this was in atlanta the year before last and They talked to they're really

11:37

I think the ideas of ethnic minorities and missions have gotten Really wrapped up in and almost indistinguishable in the minds of some people with the social justice victimhood oppressor oppressed um sort of mentality, so they they were talking about Ways in which majority culture can listen to minority culture that that was the general thrust of it.

12:00

Um, Gotcha, there were other weird things that happened. Um there too

12:06

So so yeah, tell us a little more tell us, uh, what other things you saw I know you wanted to leave the local stuff sort of to the end

12:14

But what other things did you see at some of these conferences? Well, just at the winter conference in atlanta a year before last.

12:21

Um, It was really weird Normally, I think what they do and this this had been my first winter conference

12:27

Um, but my understanding is that normally they have uh an outreach day, which is great train train young christian college students in evangelism um

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And someone majorly goofed uh, because they ended up inviting this guy who was a lunatic for for lack of a better word and They fixed it.

12:47

They fixed it very quickly Someone did not do their homework and they sent out a massive apology and shut him down very quickly.

12:54

Um, basically The complaint was if you want to look up the guy whirlwind missions,

13:03

I think is the the The organization no one at crew actually takes him seriously it was a complete mistake and they handled it well, they cut it off, but um

13:15

The point that everyone was offended by was that he'd made racially insensitive comments, which was horrible, um if you can think of uh just imagine a stereotypical kind of bore like a

13:29

Obnoxious person who really is uncultured and puts his foot in his mouth. That's pretty much what this guy was

13:36

But he was also a raging pelagian um, and what he wanted us to do was to go to these these poor this poor apartment complex and talk to these kids and try and get them to pray the center's prayer and you know, boom, they pray this prayer and they become christians and Yay, good.

13:53

No Emphasis on the local church getting them discipled getting their families discipled it was

13:59

About as theologically bad as you can think. Um, and after he left

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Everyone was offended and rightly so and crew sent out a massive apology to everyone via email even people who weren't there and convened a

14:16

Assembly for all the staff and people who were at the not the students. They wanted to keep them out.

14:21

Thank goodness um With the staff and to give them an opportunity to voice their complaints and the ways in which they're offended

14:29

As I recall, I was the only one who was offended by the obnoxious

14:34

Pelagianism. Let's just get these kids to pray a prayer and that means they're christians.

14:40

Everyone else was offended by the Obnoxious statements that he made about culture and ethnicity which were bad, but What was the direction

14:51

Were they flowing and I i'm just a little confused. So he's making these statements against a particular ethnic group.

14:57

It wasn't against he was just well stereotyping, uh Stereotyping particularly hispanics.

15:03

Um, which was it wasn't good. It was bad but there was also

15:10

Completely aberrant theology that no one else seemed to notice. Okay. So your point is that there's kind of a weak uh theology then they cared much more about the

15:19

Him putting his foot in his mouth and being offensive in terms of ethnicity than They did about him wanting to get false converts effectively

15:31

Okay Yeah, that's interesting priorities were not in the right order Yeah, and that's something that i've noticed in other organizations as well

15:39

It seems like there's uh more of a priority more of an orthodoxy almost that's forming around These more tertiary or secondary issues and of course, you know, we don't want to offend anyone

15:51

When it's not necessary if possible, obviously and uh, there's certainly racially insensitive remarks that we would both condemn here together but we would

16:00

See those things as as bad but not as bad as someone going to hell because they've trusted

16:07

False gospel and we're seeing the cart before the horse now Um, which is interesting uh, so Um, what other things did you see then at some of these conferences?

16:18

I know you had talked on the phone and you told me a few things um, those were The primary things that I encountered at the winter conferences.

16:26

There was also the usaf intern, um Train, we basically last october we had to go away for a week.

16:34

Um to I forget where is somewhere in south carolina um toward the the northern tip

16:40

And spartanburg, I think yeah spartanburg and Again the emphasis was very much on Let's listen to these minority groups let's

16:56

Set aside our privilege they showed a movie on mlk Um in the civil rights movement, which is great.

17:03

I mean, that's that's a wonderful thing, but it doesn't doesn't have much to do with missions and Evangelism on a college campus that that's if that's if your hope is

17:15

Suffrage for a particular ethnic group. That's a really worldly hope and again, it was the priorities.

17:22

Um Yeah Misusing ephesians too that that's that's an interesting one.

17:29

I I heard that at several different points um where that that's just Sort of simplistically used for racial reconciliation

17:38

It has application very much. But I think what people forget is that that um, it's talking about jews and gentiles coming together and Gentiles and jews forming the new israel the new covenant community um, and when you just cut corners exegetically and apply it to african -americans and white people and america um you miss the wonderful unity of All these ethnic groups coming together to form

18:08

In effect a new israel a new nation um that it isn't at home here on earth, but in the new heavens and I I think with these wrong emphases with the

18:21

Issues of priority that that I experienced again. I have my narrow experience, but I think others corroborate this

18:28

Um, they end up missing out. Uh, that that was one of the passages I heard talked about at that training week

18:35

Um, and there are other weird things was that the training week? I know you had mentioned to me when we spoke that you had to go and do it was kind of like an evangelism

18:46

But not really Okay, why don't you tell that story here? Um the the guy We each because we're all new staff and interns and there were older staff with us who were supposed to like mentor us and guide

18:58

Um the guy who's a wonderful guy. I enjoyed spending time with him those days

19:03

Uh, but he had us he had me and another intern break off and we went to this sort of satellite campus

19:10

Forget what college it is. It's in spartanburg, south carolina. Um, and we had uh

19:18

Normal versions of the the kgp the knowing god personally booklet the four spiritual laws for those who aren't familiar

19:25

Um, and we had specific ones for impact which is the african -american outreach ministry of group um, and what he

19:33

He wanted me and this other intern to do is to go find all the african -american students

19:39

Um and invite them to an impact meeting that we're trying to start on campus um it was socially awkward because I and the other guy are these two young white dudes and walking up to to the black students like come join our black student ministry and It's just really weird and I tried to explain this is socially awkward.

20:03

I don't think it's gonna work Yeah, well, it's not the church either. The church is supposed to Welcome, you know every background to like you just said unite around the common message of the gospel and and forgiveness in christ

20:15

That's just yeah, that would be awkward to say i'm not in your group, but come out for a group for you

20:21

Yeah, yeah, I mean and I don't I don't mind Outreaches that are specifically targeting groups.

20:28

I mean we have muslim outreaches we have outreaches that are missionaries that specifically go to to try and win jews or um,

20:36

People of asian american background. I don't mind that as long as they're brought into the church Um, but it was just really weird.

20:43

So eventually I looked at my friend and said we're we're not going to do this anymore We're going to do We took the normal, um booklets the tracks and we started walking up to people inviting them to the normal meeting and saying

20:54

Hey, we have this other thing that you can go to if you'd like um Well, it seems like the assumption behind something like that and this isn't the first time i've heard of a similar um, i've heard of even you know

21:04

Guys trying to use theobonics, which is like eubonics, but you know, you know Hey, hey white dudes who grew up in the suburbs.

21:12

You need to start learning theobonics And it almost is like that they assume that there's a barrier.

21:18

Um that ethnic groups have that Makes it impossible for them to understand the christian message apart from Changing the whole style and the way it's communicated which is unlike, you know a religious background like a muslim a muslim of course is going to come from a background that they understand islam and you have to Talk about what what the trinity is and explain it and those kind there are there's an actual barrier there but it's almost like they're creating an artificial barrier because You know, yeah if I talk to someone who knows english who's grown up in this country

21:50

Like I shouldn't have to go to them and be like, well, I know you're You know, you're 50 black or you're asian or you're you know, they speak my language

21:59

I can tell them the gospel right is that's my heart and I think Yeah, I I definitely think there's a danger to pushing the contextualization too far they yeah later on in that day,

22:18

I had a conversation with the guy because I Very clearly did not agree with the the sort of mentality and approach.

22:26

Um to witnessing and evangelizing, um particular groups that he had um and we were talking about uh, the local church and how this would look work, um, and I forget the details of the conversation, but it became very clear to me after a while that the issue

22:44

Really was one of ecclesiology and his understanding of the mission of the church.

22:50

Um, he His concern was that certain aspects of the church in worship

22:58

Wouldn't they would turn off? Um Certain minorities that they wouldn't be able to overcome this and that they wouldn't feel at home

23:05

They'd feel uncomfortable and they would leave um And I i'm part of the opc orthodox presbyterian church we hold to the regulative principle of worship the idea that Worship our standards of worship aren't whatever the bible permits but rather what the bible prescribes um, and if those are your priorities then

23:26

As long as you have the right preaching of the word in the sacraments All the other stuff

23:31

That it doesn't matter as much um And his argument and response was well, it might take a lifetime for these people to to get to that point where they understand that and I think that goes back to what you're saying where you assume that These groups can't understand.

23:48

So wait, let me get this straight He was saying like a certain ethnic group. It would take them a lifetime to understand.

23:54

I want to just make sure Because of their cultural background and then the perceived hurts they might feel the perceived depression that they might feel um the hostility that they might

24:08

Be worried about or just general uncomfortableness. Um, so he's saying that's a barrier to the gospel then that Yeah, certain styles of worship might be

24:18

Wow, that's fascinating. Do you remember what styles or was it vague? I I can't remember it was vague

24:24

I think most of the time we were trying to understand what on earth the other person was was saying it

24:29

Yeah, it's a new language Chase your opponent around trying to define the terms

24:35

Um, but it did become clear that a lot of this was the result of not having

24:41

I think a fully formed theology, um If you don't have good solid theology that that's comprehensive

24:52

You I think you end up imbibing stuff for the world. That's certainly what's happening with the issue of homosexuality and true

24:59

Everywhere it's certainly not just it. I've encountered in ruf as a student Encountered it elsewhere.

25:05

So, um, why don't we talk a little bit more about? I don't know if you have other stories you wanted to share from more the national level

25:12

But if not, let's talk about some of the things you experienced on the local level because these were to me more

25:18

Concerning because you shared concerns about some of the things you saw And the response you got

25:24

I just think that It's almost terrifying that you would get the response that you got.

25:29

So why don't you go ahead and Talk about some of that Again, I I do want to stress that I I love the people that I worked with.

25:36

Um, we didn't always get along and I think there was not the smoothest ending, um, but I do care about them and I My goal isn't to hurt them.

25:48

That's that's why i'm not going to share their names Um, I respect that I I think there are

25:54

There were some things that were very upsetting and I think they weren't handled very well. Um, we had

26:02

La not last fall fall before last fall we talked about same sex attraction every other week and that was

26:09

Explosive every other week we we had staff on mondays and yeah,

26:16

I I think there are more important things to talk about but What the sort of things I was interested in weren't priorities, um, unfortunately uh, but That wasn't my decision so some one of the other girls, um was really

26:32

Uh felt led to minister to that group because we were on a college campus a secular school

26:37

So big not the big portion, but a sizable one. Um, and she felt called to that which is fine

26:44

Um, I don't think the resources that we used were the best Um, I think crew is kind of soft, but they're not the only ones but the year before that Um every staff meeting we'd start off with a discussion about a particular minority group

26:58

Um, or in the case of women a perceived minority group sort of a because they're not actually a minority.

27:05

Um an oppressed group, uh We talked about asian americans.

27:10

We talked about I don't know if we ever got to native americans Um, we got to african americans. Definitely women

27:16

Um, we were going to get to lgbtq plus, uh people I was going to leave that that would have been interesting

27:23

Um, but we that got cut off. Um We talked about Hispanics, etc.

27:32

Never talked about men. Um but yeah, those were really uncomfortable conversations and I think

27:38

Uh, I think my leaders sincerely wanted to have good conversations but I I know the people who were

27:49

The guy who was in charge at the time and he really is good at listening and does care But I think it might have been slightly naive to think that it would work.

27:57

Um just because You can't have such an explosive conversation um

28:05

Potentially explosive conversation in the span of 15 minutes So scott what i'm hearing from you is, you know two years, uh, you're you're on staff

28:14

Essentially, you're an intern and you're in these staff meetings and for the first year

28:19

One of the themes that kept coming up was these oppressed groups. Yeah, so trying to understand them which trying to understand is one thing but you're saying this this was the

28:29

But this was the whole thing it was like that was the main emphasis was just trying to understand victim groups and then the second year

28:36

Same -sex attraction and understanding that was the emphasis. Yeah, and i'll get to that in a moment.

28:42

Um the It wasn't just understanding. Um, there really wasn't time to like think critically and to really talk about it.

28:52

Uh What I felt very much the way I felt pressured was to Listen and agree.

29:00

Um, particularly the staff person who was leading it. Um Not the one who was like overall over everything but the individual who was leading it.

29:10

Um very much was in favor of Listen and that really meant to agree

29:16

So to agree that these groups are oppressed that we as the christians need to do something and then

29:21

I would have a voice I can't think critically about it Because you're not an oppressed individual because i'm white man okay, and I This was part of the thing that really caught my attention with that Sort of litany of clips that was put together and sent around the web.

29:37

Um The one at the I don't know if you saw the same video Or if there are multiple versions of it

29:42

But the one the clip at the end of the video I saw with the woman at q and a asking the speakers well, my family came over and After slavery and that's documented.

29:54

We never had slaves How can I be blamed for this and the response was Your skin color because you're part of that that culture

30:04

Um, you benefit from the oppression of others Um, and I I asked that same question and I had that exact same response given to me

30:15

So these are the discussions we didn't necessarily know my background which was actually quite cosmopolitan growing up Grew up in a secular family with a lot of different kind of friends

30:25

Um, yeah, but that didn't matter. Um, so this is interesting because steve sellers when he put out this message to all the supporters he said

30:35

Those people that we had at our staff conference this last summer like sandra van obstel and james white and you know

30:42

They were just guests. They don't necessarily represent cruise beliefs But what you're telling me is that same stuff that you saw in that clip

30:50

That was in the small group staff meetings you saw on the campus you were at yeah, I mean It might not have been that way with the other local teams

30:59

But it really was with mine. Um That's interesting. It wasn't all that we did.

31:05

Um, and not every staff member agrees with it Certainly not but that was the priority of the leadership of my team

31:13

Okay What kinds of things did you see? I know you had told me some things, uh about um

31:19

Different events you held locally and and some things you saw, uh that kind of bothered you well, um that first year

31:31

First year was interesting because we had a hurricane and then richard spencer, you know, the white supremacist neo -nazi guy came to right because Not another hurricane

31:42

Yeah And we wanted to do something to respond to that which is fair um

31:51

And we invited a speaker but we did this dragged on for multiple weeks I I think at some point it became too political um

32:01

One of the staff members who were speaking and leading one of these events was wearing a black lives matter t -shirt on stage

32:08

Which I think was really inappropriate and that individual Award to many other things including staff meetings.

32:14

I I would they represented crew and Were wearing this in the capacity of being a representative on stage.

32:22

Wow I would not have worn a crew. I wouldn't have worn a trump t -shirt. I wouldn't have been allowed

32:27

There's no way I can't imagine. I wouldn't have gotten fussed out for that given the things I was fussed out for um but yeah, this individual did and the same individual later on, uh was on stage and Encouraged all the students at our main meeting to sign a petition restoring voting rights to felons

32:46

Which I mean if that individual wants to do it, that's fine. This was at a crew event

32:52

Yeah, which I again, I I went out to us afterwards said I think this is really inappropriate and his response was well, but she's getting the idea from one of our churches that partners with us and and Nothing happened.

33:07

Um the same individual I on slack Because we had been having these conversations and i'm thinking well

33:14

I know there's an alternative viewpoint How about I share and our you know, the slack app where businesses communicate?

33:23

um I shared a link to the statement on social justice. So the the one that macarthur and votey balkan and that James white that I like, um put together um along with the first of macarthur's blog articles about social justice and I said um

33:42

I said Yeah I think this is relevant given the sort of conversations we've had.

33:48

Um, i'd encourage you all to Read it if you're interested think critically about it

33:53

Um and just consider it whether you end up agreeing with it or not I mean it was

33:59

I it could not have been more innocuous and i've shown it to others Uh, my friends and talked about it with others but apparently it wasn't innocuous enough because when

34:09

I was talking to Another of the the staff members who was over me one of my bosses that could be one of several people.

34:17

So i'll let People back home can't necessarily figure it out immediately. Um I was meeting with him for lunch because he wanted to get to know me um, and that that came up and he was like I wanted to talk to you scotty about appropriate use of slack and My heart went cold.

34:35

I didn't know what he was talking about. I was ready to Have something Surprise me and then it did surprise me because he mentioned that um and So you're not allowed to share the statement on social justice?

34:49

No, no, I wasn't not in that context apparently because That that's divisive and it would have caused arguments and but you can wear a black lives matter t -shirt

34:59

Yeah, the better. Yeah, they they were not handling it. Well, I I think It gets better i'll explain why

35:06

I think that is why they're not handling it. Well, but um Yeah, the conversation went on and I asked him.

35:11

Well, how on earth should I have shared it because we had a large staff make team This was at the beginning of last year august before last um and I thought it was relevant

35:24

How can I share this link with a bunch of people all at once so I don't have to go to them individually? And he kind of stared at me for a good 20 seconds

35:32

On because he didn't have a better answer and finally he came up with on well I should have gone to everyone individually

35:38

Which is just socially awkward, um, and it's inefficient and unnecessary. I mean it's it was the specific hour after hours uh chat in our slack app it was the most efficient most logical way to share it, but um, that wasn't okay and he said, you know, there's

35:59

There's a spectrum of acceptable belief there's the mainstream and then there's

36:05

Um acceptable dissent and then there's stuff that's not acceptable over here like white supremacy and kkk, etc and I asked

36:13

Are you suggesting that i'm in that? Ladder category, um, and he said well some people would would put you there

36:19

Would put would put what you're what that statement on social justice said there. Um Which is really weird because macarthur has partnered with crew um that that I think is very unfair and I was an intern.

36:35

Um part of my weaknesses, I I didn't necessarily speak up and Approach them every time

36:41

I should have mostly just kept it to myself. So I let it go um

36:48

I mean, it's really hard to talk to your boss and say I think you're wrong, uh when you're right um

36:56

But yeah that I think wasn't handled well and I think it that among other things set a very negative tone from my year yeah, what does that do for you scott when you heard that was that kind of Like you just put up your hands and said well forget it.

37:10

I'm gonna just kind of ride this out or Like how did it make you feel to that point? That was a process um, and there there are other things that don't have to do with social justice and this sort of trajectory that Happened that aren't aren't really relevant.

37:25

They're more personal issues. Um, but Yeah, that that was really unpleasant and and hurtful.

37:32

Um, It definitely didn't endear me because like I was supposed to get to know him What what's your sense?

37:38

Uh, at least in in the circle that you were in of the other crew staff members and interns What are they thinking in general?

37:45

I'm not looking for the outliers like yourself, but are are they mostly? um

37:51

You know Into the social justice stuff and and waving that flag or are they just kind of going along or both or what do you think?

37:59

The impression I get and again My experience is limited Is that most people are just going along.

38:06

Um, I think there are a lot of faithful christians who want to evangelize um and Are trying to do that.

38:13

Well, and they hear trusted leaders promoting these ideas and they imbibe them um

38:19

And that's part of why i'm willing to speak out because I think of the students back home some are really care about and I don't want them to adopt these viewpoints just by default

38:32

They don't have to agree with me, but I want them to at least know that not everyone agrees narratives

38:39

And that there are I think really convincing Arguments against them. Were there any other stories or situations that you wanted to share about?

38:47

Uh from crew at all yeah I mentioned that I think there's a reason why

38:56

Things were handled the way they were with me. Um I I get the impression that with that one particular staff person who was very much into Social justice movement and black lives matter, etc.

39:07

I think that individual Caused a lot of noise And made people uncomfortable at times and thus the people over me mainly wanted to keep the peace

39:16

And were willing to make compromises that really weren't fair Um, one of my other co -workers had posted online on facebook you know the the entire issue with kavanaugh and the the woman who

39:30

Was claiming he raped her and oh, right. Yeah remembered this after decades Um, he posted something to the effect of on facebook

39:40

Why would anyone believe this woman with a link to an article? um, but that that did not go over well because the the danger is that well

39:49

If one of our female students sees this What are they going to think they might they might feel uncomfortable coming to us if something happened to them um

39:57

So he got forced to take it down Um, I I I think on his wait, this is his personal facebook.

40:05

Yeah, I think I think they they have too tight of control On I thank goodness. So he posted his thoughts on his personal facebook about the kavanaugh situation

40:14

I don't work for crew anymore and they complain that I post on my personal facebook page because somehow i'm

40:20

I owe loyalty to a particular group That's stunning to me.

40:25

I thought it was unreasonable. I've talked to my dad. I've talked to others and Not everyone agrees.

40:30

I think I think a lot of evangelicals A lot of people

40:36

I really care about Are imbalanced in the sense that they are overly compassionate and I think this leads to issues with homosexuality um where They're so worried about offending people that They over listen they they're way too quick to accept whatever someone else says rather than thinking critically about it

40:58

Which is not the biblical standards of justice where? You have to determine what happened. He was involved, etc

41:05

I mean think of the mosaic laws back in deuteronomy. Um the way you establish justice two or three witnesses.

41:12

Um But that that's not the concern. It's listen to people and accept Presume that they're in the right

41:20

Now you had told me about wanting to go. Uh Talk now it was a group on campus.

41:26

I don't know if it was the young republicans or more conservative group and oh, yeah um I I think first of all, i'll say it was the same staff person who really didn't like conservative stuff.

41:38

Um but That individual I think did did learn Not to interrupt the staff meeting and call someone out if if they didn't like it

41:47

It what was said because that's what happened with. Um, my other co -worker when he posted on facebook

41:54

But this individual Texted me and met up and I had said in staff meeting um, you know, why don't we

42:05

Suggest that some of our young conservative guys Maybe attend yaf or college republicans or some other conservative turning point usa.

42:14

Um, you know young america's foundation for those who don't know Yeah, yeah. Um, because one of the things that we tried to do because crew's primarily evangelistic is

42:23

To get our students really involved on campus so they can meet non -christians And so that they can make friends and do relational evangelism.

42:30

It's not the only way to do it But that's something that crew promotes um so and we were

42:37

Sending our students and suggesting they go to their engineering clubs Journalism club whatever for their major or some leadership thing and I was looking at all the pamphlets and you know, you had these nice Cute looking leadership events for u .s.

42:52

But I was thinking if I were a student this would look boring as heck Um, so why not encourage our young males who

43:00

I know some of them are very conservative go to college republicans or yaf um and It seemed fine.

43:08

That seemed like a reasonable thing to do at the time but then I got a text and met up with the the staff member and She wanted to encourage me, you know

43:20

I want to make sure that you know that Yaf is a registered hate group Young america's foundation, which

43:28

I think their base is at the reagan ranch in california. That's a hate group and they promote white supremacists and Racists and I told her

43:39

I Never heard of this. I I don't know anything. Thank you for telling me this.

43:44

I asked her Who's who's got them registered according to whom are they a hate group and the response was the splc the southern poverty law center

43:52

And I I bit my tongue because I had about a month left splc is a hate group and I wanted to say that and Again, her her particular ideas are not reflective of crew as a whole.

44:05

I know that because we had a faculty commons Conference which was wonderful. It was fantastic faculty commons is the the faculty ministry for crew

44:15

Because we reach out not only to students but staff and and the professors as well and grad students but they had a lawyer from the alliance defending freedom come and speak about how you can and can't share your faith and the environment of a secular university

44:33

And splc has labeled them a hate group too and got them demonetized from amazon smile so Clearly the splc standards are not the same.

44:43

Um Yeah, so they they'll allow a young Alliance defending freedom to come in but if you were to go to a young america's foundation meeting, that's a double standard it sounds like And that's again.

44:58

That's not reflective of the organization crew, right? That's one individual within it again, i'm trying to explain my slice of the pie and understood crew didn't

45:09

My leaders didn't do anything to stop it And I think that's part of the problem is that you have a very vocal group

45:14

And I think that's why evangelicalism as a whole is going this way you get very vocal Outspoken people who feel very passionately and promote these things and other people for the sake of peace.

45:26

Um, don't stop them It's just incredible to me that you know, I know this is a different event

45:32

But you're at this winter conference and they want you to go and um as a white male go to Black students and invite them to a black group a black ministry group and that's in your purview as an intern with crew, but then to encourage guys who are already conservative to go to a ideologically conservative group

45:53

With this at least this one staff individual who had some authority now that that's not okay that's just that's just blatantly contradictory in my mind at least it's just um frustrating

46:06

Her authority was limited, um, but still but it affected you It did no one stopped no one stopped that and they didn't stick up for me when

46:14

I think they really should have. Um, but Yeah So I thought they didn't always care about um, at least they didn't seem to care so much about White males or white students in general

46:31

One of the things I kept complaining about because we had problem with shrinking numbers. Um at our local movement at u .s.

46:38

Um, and Tried to point out a few times especially the first year, uh,

46:45

I think we need to be careful about Too much politics because we it's an evangelical organization.

46:51

You got conservative people, especially among the young males We we don't want to like shoot ourselves in the foot and destroy the numbers we actually have um, but the very the big push was

47:03

Let's get minorities and that that wasn't just my campus that seemed to be The region as a whole at least in florida.

47:11

I I Really can't imagine it wasn't elsewhere and it was specific minorities.

47:17

Um, I remember to Higher than my boss the level higher than my boss at the local level.

47:24

Um, they came and met and wonderful guys. I like them um Had them over at my house actually, uh, not here but back in florida

47:33

And I asked them because they were talking about how we need to reach minority students. I asked them what about What about muslims or jewish students?

47:43

because Those are groups that meet christ

47:49

They don't have any knowledge of christianity within their their group Because it's different religion african -americans and asians and hispanics and white people in general all have christians within their groups that can minister to them or cross culture, but Especially muslims coming from a different country.

48:08

There's a big need and there's a growing number on our campus That that wasn't the priority I asked them why it wasn't and they said well,

48:15

I don't know that's a good question um And it was very frustrating as a missions organization why

48:23

Why not more of a push for that? Um Yeah, yeah scott.

48:28

Well, i'm grateful that you shared some of your experience and it's concerning that this is happening

48:35

Because this is where the rubber meets the road. It's one thing to hear what's going on at a big conference But it's another thing to hear from the ground up a student or an intern who's working with students and and to hear that these ideas are actually having an effect on campuses and In my experience definitely.

48:52

Yeah, and and so, um, yeah, I think uh, the concerns that we would both share would be that like you had just shared about the muslims coming in that there's a mission drift from sharing the gospel as The the truth of god that applies to every person and breaks down those, uh gender and and You know racial barriers and so forth so people can unite and we're building barriers and then trying to um, trying to I'm going to use the word privilege here privilege some groups with the resources that crew and other evangelical organizations have

49:31

While not putting emphasis where it's probably more needed um in the case of refugees coming here and that that's just uh,

49:41

That's a concern of over mission drift. I know there's more concerns than just that but um, you know, you kind of ended it on that note and so that's the what's you know percolating in my mind

49:51

What would you say are your if you have other concerns, what would those be? Um, I think what you just described as a concern

49:58

I think um A warped view of the covenant community what it means to be a church uh,

50:06

I think In my experience listening to some people. Um even here at wheaton to some extent um less so because I haven't had as many conversations, but often the the line between Um my ethnic minority christians

50:24

Yeah, and Other christians seems to be much darker At least in the minds of the people promoting social justice than the line between Minor ethnic minority christians and ethnic minority non -christians

50:38

That's fascinating. That's a good point and that's really concerning because The new testament call is to leave your father and mother and hold fast to christ

50:49

You're a nation called out of the earth Um a new people to die to the old self the old adam and put on the new you can't do that there is some

51:01

Overlap, I mean we're in a inter -advent period but Yeah, your ultimate identity is not with your family in an earthly sense.

51:11

Your ultimate family is the church Um and to see it any other way and I don't think that people would outright

51:18

Disagree, although they might i've been surprised. Um But that's

51:24

Functionally the way it seems to me Yeah, what advice do you have for those out there who are giving to crew and they think maybe my missionary that I support

51:33

They're doing good work. Um Would you have maybe you haven't thought through this but would you have advice for them on what they should do?

51:40

Yeah, I mean I had a lot of ministries of partners, uh partners and I didn't I I didn't promote these ideas.

51:47

Um I wouldn't have and they couldn't have made me. Um In fact, there were there were times when

51:53

I was talking alone with students where I explained. I think this is a bad idea You should not go that way.

52:00

Um So I I would say talk to your Your missionaries talk to the the crew staff that you support.

52:07

Definitely Don't don't just pull funds because it's really hard to raise money It really is.

52:12

I mean I had to do it twice over the course of a summer raise 40 grand. That's not easy. Um But If you're giving to the organization as a whole

52:23

Maybe consider it or a particular facet of it Um, do your research first before you hurt people that aren't

52:31

Because you don't want to chase out people from the ministry who aren't doing Anything wrong who are doing everything, right?

52:39

Um Yeah, try and minimize the collateral damage, but it might happen.

52:44

Um People might not listen and again, I really don't think that's my fault or your fault or anyone else pointing out these issues

52:52

That's the fault of the people who are actually divisive those who are teaching false doctrine That's the new testament paradigm if you read the pastoral epistles

53:00

Well scott, uh, it was a pleasure getting your thoughts and um, I appreciate you being brave enough to share them uh, and i'm sure you'll be getting some messages from Friends and others probably about what you've said once this goes online, but uh, you know,

53:15

I commend you and Um, you know stay in touch. All right. All right. Thank you. All right.