An Argument for "Gay Christianity"

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00:02

Okay, so you're saying that because you read the Bible for 20 years and meditate upon it. No one has done that May be done that but Certainly, I am among the top 1 % who spend that much of meditation and reading scriptures

00:21

So that you are thinking I I just came up with some Opinion and then

00:27

I try to find it on the speeches. It's not like that. Okay. I have a question Does your arm hurt?

00:36

No, no, cuz I mean you're patting yourself on the back so much. I was afraid your arm might hurt You know,

00:42

I was just Leaning on the wall. Did you did you know that pride is a sin?

00:48

It's actually like the number one Okay, I know I know all that Shaming tactics.

00:54

No, it's not a shaming tactic. You just praised yourself You're in the you're in the top percent of all

01:03

Christians in the world You should be ashamed of yourself

01:15

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

01:29

Well, welcome to another apologetics live. I am your host Andrew Rappaport I forgot about that guy the guy said he had never sinned in Before and he was in the top 1 % of all

01:41

Christians He that guy even said that you could sleep with a prostitute in faith, and it wouldn't be wrong

01:49

Oh Okay, so But I'll bring my my co -host drew in here.

01:58

Oh Wait, you you don't look like drew. You look a lot like Aaron See drew myself.

02:06

Yeah is drew in my room. Yes Am Brewster one of our speakers at striving for eternity.

02:13

And so welcome. You're gonna be filling in for drew today He's he is then the guy is out taking his wife out for dinner for her birthday,

02:23

I mean the nerve of that guy You know, hey, I've subbed for both of you guys, which which means that not only are both of you replaceable

02:33

But you're replaceable by me. So I don't know what Terrible for you both of you.

02:42

Yeah, and so so we're glad to be here. We're gonna be introduced our guest today with topic We're gonna do today and I'm gonna explain this in a bit

02:50

Is we're gonna talk about gay Christianity. We have someone that's gonna come in and make an argument for that I'm gonna give a little bit of history of on him and How this came about?

03:01

Would and we'll introduce him. We'll just deal with briefly as we usually do we try to do is an in the news section

03:09

Just talk about one news topic. Just give a Christian way of thinking about it Then we usually deal with our topic for the first hour and Anyone is welcome to come in and ask any questions.

03:21

They want on the show You just go to apologetics live .com Thursday night 8 to 10

03:26

Eastern Time We have people that come in from all over the world You can comment many people go to our

03:33

YouTube watch stream it live and then from there ask questions Which is gonna be harder because usually

03:40

Drew's job is to flag all the questions so we don't lose them and Aaron doesn't have that capability

03:47

Which means I got it have be doing the talking flagging and paying attention

03:53

So it's gonna be a little bit of a challenge. We will see if I'm up to it, but With that though what we're multitask.

04:01

I believe in you. Yeah So the topic after the topic at second hour we usually will try to answer any of the questions that come up that we have and so I'm gonna give a just a warning for those who are watching

04:18

Live or watching actually and later And an update, I know a lot of folks

04:24

Know that I was dealing with some issues health -wise with double vision. I finally got the special glasses.

04:30

They Are basically with our book called prism glasses They were black to reflect the light so that I can see without double vision

04:40

I guess but one of the things is because they're progressive if you see me just nodding my head up and down It's because I'm looking at the comments and trying to figure out how to look where it's not blurry

04:50

So it's kind of interesting. I'm still getting used to them two weeks. I was told it takes a month. So In the news,

04:58

I Didn't have the article pulled up on this computer head on a different one, but I know Aaron you had seen the article as well

05:04

I thought it was very interesting Now we usually talk about a Christian way to view things in the news

05:10

But this is about Christianity today, which is I don't know the name makes me think it's a

05:15

Christian magazine Aaron What do you think? Does it does that? Yeah, I mean they like to say they speak for Christians Yeah, and and I'm just kind of puzzled because they were

05:25

I forget if it was Daily Wire Epoch News that had an article that Basically said that you know, all of the staff at Christianity Today supports

05:35

Democrats Kind of weird since the Democrats support everything that's against the

05:42

Christian values strange So for those who think that Christianity Today speaks for Christianity today

05:51

Not anymore, I don't think it did that ever since you know James Boyce resigned

05:59

Long time ago. I used to I used to I Submitted a couple articles to them hoping I'm looking for the article right now that you're referenced but I was

06:07

Submitted stuff to them because I it's like I'll be great to be to be featured in Christianity Today And then it was it was a couple years after that.

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I was like, ooh, you know I'm kind of glad I never actually got attached to that and now I follow them on Twitter just to see really the depressing state of Christianity Today not the magazine but if that magazine gets to bear this name if that magazine gets to gets to speak for Christianity then no doubt they speak for a lot of people who consider themselves to be

06:37

Christians And so I just kind of use it keep my pulse on the on the state of the situation out there

06:44

Yeah Well, hey, this is kind of interesting. I just just came in breaking news Scalise dropped out of the speaker race

06:52

So I guess that means only Jim Jordan's the only one left. So I guess it's a race pretty easy

06:58

Yeah, that's it's gonna be interesting So like this is what we need to deal with when we should be dealing with addressing issues of this country of Israel Yeah, but anyway

07:07

And and by by Aaron's suggestion because if I get into discussing

07:12

Israel, I will go long So if there's time at the end, I will address questions dealing with Israel I may we may do a whole show if we'll see

07:23

But I'll probably do something on the my rap report podcast on that coming up. So If I've been taking a break,

07:31

I'll start that one up soon. I think next week so With that Aaron real quick want you as our new speaker.

07:39

I would like to get folks to know more about you as well When you give folks the

07:45

You know some of the topics you end up speaking at if there's any churches that want to have you out to speak What are the topics you kind of deal with you?

07:52

Let's see. I mean, let me give those topics. I heard drew mentioned you do creation and You do apologetics.

07:59

What else did he mention you do social justice? Yeah. Yeah all the things No, I mean,

08:05

I believe that God's Word is very clear. It gives us everything that we need for life and godliness So I'm never hesitant to tackle any issue because I believe that God's Word speaks to it and it's not really about my opinion

08:16

It's about what God has to say about it So I'm never intimidated by a topic but there are ones that I speak about far more often and I you know

08:24

That's kind of caught my wheelhouse. Whatever you want Family marriage parenting is a sector that I work frequently in in fact

08:33

Unfortunately, I my expertise if you can put it that way Is really dealing with the hard cases the difficult situations specifically involving marriage and parenting

08:43

I deal a lot with that but I when I speak I was just at the

08:48

American Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and I had a chance to speak on emotions and specifically a critique of John Gottman's emotion coaching so whether it's like a technical analysis or Or it's a and obviously it's still very biblical

09:06

Talk that I did. I talked a lot about emotions because as a biblical counselor emotions are just something that factor into almost every facet of our being and they come out a lot in counseling and then

09:18

I talked a lot about worship and discipleship as well as biblical counseling and Again, those those are the ones

09:26

I kind of I deal on a daily basis in But Again, I love to I love to talk about anything that the scripture touches and the scripture touches just about everything.

09:37

Yeah That's true. And so They put this coming up real quick before we bring

09:42

Anthony in is from a friend of his it says This is when we talked about the Democrats says not really

09:48

Democrats support taking care of the poor Those who are with disabilities and welcoming strangers and those are

09:56

Christian values but there but that's another topic completely, um, I Don't think they take care of the poor and disabled in the womb for sure

10:06

Because they kill them Welcoming strangers not really the

10:12

Democrats are completely intolerant to anyone that disagrees with their views That's one of the differences somebody argued that that using

10:25

Saying that a Christian can't support the Democratic Party Because of the fact that they support abortion and so on and so forth is a is a propaganda technique a fallacy called no

10:36

No true Scotsman But the reality is is that the scriptures are excessively clear

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What is sin and what is not? and when the scriptures say that you this is not allowed you're not allowed to do this and then a political party

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Identifies themselves with all of these things that the scriptures say no Then to point out the fact that you know

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People in the Democratic Party, you know like to give to the poor and and you know, they're huge on welfare, right?

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And I'm on welfare to a certain degree. I've used food stamps and stuff in the future and in the past so Just to point out to those things

11:20

That's you can't conveniently do that because no true Christian is going to support

11:28

Abortion, right? So yeah, I mean obviously there are Democrats out there

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I know some of them who are very moralistic individuals people who

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Who give Copious amounts of money to charities and so on and so forth, but they stand with a political party that Parades the fact they spit in God's eye with the things that identify them and it's just it's not acceptable

11:56

Well, and and just for folks to understand because you made it false. You mentioned a fallacy and that fallacy is often misunderstood

12:03

Okay, the new no true Scotsman fallacy. What what is that? Well, it's it's basically this The the no and I'm just gonna mute you

12:11

Aaron while you're not talking just we're getting a little hump from you, too I don't know I don't know what that what what's happening lately with with StreamYard, but Anyway, the no true

12:23

Scotsman fallacy goes like this. There's there was you know, the the way that it Reason it's called no true

12:29

Scotsman is you have this Scotsman who says, you know, no Scotsman would eat haggis and So I'm so we'll see there's there's

12:38

Johnny over there having haggis and he goes Well, no true Scotsman would have haggis. And so the argument is you're not a true whatever true

12:45

Scotsman if you don't do something now There that's a fallacy what people will do and they say well if you don't do

12:53

X then you're not really this now There is a case where that is

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Where there that is not a fallacy for example No true

13:08

American I'm trying to think something that would be you know, or you know, no true

13:14

American is Born outside this country with passport from outside the country or something

13:20

You know something because there's a definition of what an American would be and and that becomes a thing But let's put this way no no true graduate of Harvard You know never went to Harvard, right?

13:33

They've they've all gone to Harvard to graduate from it So a true no true Scotsman fallacy is a fallacy if it's something that's not part of the definition of of what's true now

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But just Scotsman didn't get together and say this is the official standard to be a Scotsman That's that's not nobody can do that.

13:50

But God has said this is the standard Yeah, eating haggis is not the definition of being a

13:56

Scotsman, right? Citizenship there does now you're breaking up on your

14:01

Wi -Fi there yikes Okay, and I don't want you breaking up because this

14:07

Leah's got this comment I want you to Talk to this really quick before we bring Anthony in and I think

14:12

I know who Lee is But she says counseling is an entire science that the Bible barely touches

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What are your thoughts on that Aaron since you're as a biblical counselor No, so really

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Everything that is done within the context of counseling That has value.

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I mean besides just slapping band -aids on issues and things like that is talked about in the scriptures in fact the the various concepts of Admonishment encouragement edification

14:46

The the way that we're supposed to communicate speaking the truth and love building people up sanctification discipleship all of these concepts and many more

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All deal with are all wrapped up in this concept of counseling In fact, Jay Adams one gentleman who kind of started the biblical counseling movement pointed to a

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Greek word new fate. Oh, right a frequently translated admonish and He kind of that was the the name for the type of counseling that was being done new fetic counseling so now the scriptures have a ton to say about it about how people change and About the best ways to help people change which is exactly what even secular counselors are trying to do

15:30

They're trying to help people change for the better. So yeah. Yeah. All right So, let me I'm gonna bring in Anthony a moment

15:35

Let me first give it a little bit history of so people understand Anthony is someone that I know personally

15:41

Many years ago. We're not going to allow him to say how many years ago because that would kind of give away

15:49

That I've told him earlier before we went live When he said it's been a gazillion years since he's seen me.

15:55

I said no because I'm the same age Anthony just saying um, I used to Bring him to youth group when

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I pastored at the Chinese Church My first pastorate and I had he used to come to the youth group.

16:08

He would come out with us to do evangelism I knew knew his family both his his father and his uncle

16:16

We used to do a lot of evangelism together and He used to go to Christian school with with my kids my we used to Trade like his dad used to bring my kids and and his kids to school in the morning

16:31

And then my wife would go and pick them up and bring them home So so this is someone who I I know

16:37

I know the family. So just just so we we recognize that And One of the things

16:43

I would just want folks to know because there may be new people tuning in I just want those who who may be new to the program to understand one of the things that we do here is we will let people who we

16:53

I would disagree with to a to have an ability to Voice their opinion.

16:59

So we're not ones who just cut people off. I like to let people to explain It's my show and I have plenty of opportunity to disagree even next week the week after Howard whenever I want

17:11

I we've done that before So I'm saying that to say if there's those out here who will disagree with Anthony as as I'm sure

17:18

I will I don't I haven't heard his argument. I know he said he's got eight pages of notes We're probably not gonna get through eight pages of notes

17:24

But even though I'm anticipating that I'm going to be disagreeing with him a bit quite a bit

17:32

It you're gonna hear that I will let him voice his views now

17:38

I'm saying that up front just because I do know people that are like Why are you letting him say with a reason why I let people that disagree with me say that is for two reasons one

17:45

It's my show Which means I have all the time, you know, I could do a whole show disagreeing with him

17:52

We've done that before with the Orthodox rabbi who came in and we did an entire show in response

17:58

To the things he wouldn't let us talk because he just kept talking over us every time He'd ask a question then before get the answer.

18:05

He'd just talk right over us, but it's my show I can do that. Okay? When someone comes in we want to give them an opportunity to voice their opinion why one so you can hear what it is

18:16

Then we're gonna try to address the issues That are raised. So I'm gonna let

18:22

Anthony come in and introduce himself explain You know where he's at in life some of his background why this topic is of interest and and just say he contacted me after we did the episode with Drew and Chris about the head coverings which he had studied quite a bit and I guess somehow that got

18:43

His attention and I don't know if he's been following us I have to ask you know at the

18:49

LA bring you in I have to ask you if you Before that or did you just like you happen to see head coverings it was like, oh, hey that guy.

18:57

I'm not sure All right testing one two, can you hear me?

19:02

Okay, you're fine. All right So yeah, the head covering passage and it is relevant to this situation after that time

19:12

What Andrew was talking about of us carpooling and stuff? My dad had

19:18

He was so afraid of going to the one side where the guardrail should have been that he just Kept getting more and more conservative with where'd you guys go?

19:28

I just highlighted you Okay, he kept wanting to get more conservative and more conservative.

19:34

So after that time and period We ended up joining a sect of the fundamental

19:41

Baptists Combination like the Duggar teaching Bill Gothard and then the

19:46

Amish and the Mennonites and the head covering Women wearing it and stuff. That was such a big part of their theology that That it just Dominated our whole family for two or three years and for quite a while.

20:03

It was almost the end of my faith so I started researching all different types of viewpoints on it and Kept watching different YouTube videos reading different articles and one on head coverings came up and it was by you guys

20:20

And and that you you found that like I think then night or two after we did it so So God's Providence, so all right

20:30

So bring us to see where where you're at today and and I want to give you an opportunity to You know to explain your your view

20:39

Obviously, you know not getting through all eight pages and in one shop But give it give us an overview of your argument and and and then we'll dialogue about it

20:49

Okay The eight pages of notes is just simply like me writing all my thoughts out.

20:55

I think that it We don't have to like go through each point by point, but it hits most of the things that we talked about.

21:03

So My entire life from about age 12, well even before that but I knew something was different about me

21:11

I I Have cerebral palsy we moved everywhere growing up, you know

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My parents weren't quite Married when I was born they were five when

21:23

I was I mean I was five when they were married So it was kind of like I was always in some form

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Different and hated getting dirty and stuff. So then around the time I was 12 right around when we met

21:36

Andrew I won't Reveal how many years ago that was she told me not to My dad had a very genuine experience with God, but he just didn't really have much direction and With the way things were going in my family between my dad and uncle my uncle started embracing the more reformed

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Theology and my dad started embracing more the Anabaptist, you know Kingdom Christianity theology there.

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I am in the middle and we had a conversation on the way home from Bible study about like Purity and what not to look out on the internet and that whole conversation well,

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I was doing some soul -searching and I went in to my shame did everything that my dad told me not to do

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Well, I saw two guys just embrace each other. Not even sexually I don't think it was just embrace and I'm like, that's what it is and yeah,

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I said I'm gay, but I shouldn't tell anyone because the life as I know it is

22:44

Gonna be over for me in some form. Well, I Do I get a different Bible I use the

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Christian Standard Bible, but I use plenty of them But we'll get into that a little bit more But as I went through my life,

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I felt like you know, God doesn't love me Am I just doomed?

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Am I a mistake? you know, so up into my and then when we joined the more conservative

23:10

Mennonite Anabaptist churches, it just They told me don't acknowledge it it won't be there and I went through a couple therapy programs, you know

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They told me just tell yourself loud enough. You're not gay when I got into my 20s I went through conversion therapy

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For two and a half years and it was basically pray this prayer again Say it loud enough try to convince yourself and it seemed the more

23:33

I did that the more I was drawn to guys Oh Don't one second there

23:51

Anthony you're getting you're breaking up a bit Might have to turn your camera off if you're is your if your

24:00

Wi -Fi is not good Are you getting the same thing in Aaron you hearing the same?

24:08

Okay, just checking. It's not just me You know, there's some there are some statements in the chat to he's breaking up Yeah, okay.

24:18

So if you try try turning your camera off just at the bottom. There's a stop cam click that.

24:23

Yeah at least reduces what you're You're saying so now try talking. Let's hear see if we can hear you

24:30

All right No, it's not it's not getting better I know you had to drop off just before we went live

24:42

Yeah, Jamie saying it sounds it sounds like crackling. That's what I'm hearing Lee is saying static

24:48

Okay, it stopped Anthony I don't hear him at all now.

24:57

Oh No, okay, if you if you could hear us

25:02

Anthony, maybe maybe go out and come back in Yeah Okay, I changed my

25:14

Wi -Fi back I'm having endless issues with our With our house

25:19

Wi -Fi. It keeps going in and out. I don't know why Okay, but well, we're good now.

25:25

We're good Yeah, I mean it's the video is not as good but that's fine It's as long as we can hear you.

25:32

That's yeah more important part So, okay, if you remember where you were continue, if not, I'll tell you where we last heard you.

25:38

Yeah Okay, yeah, where did you last hear me before all the popcorn started going

25:45

There's plenty of people wanting to get the popcorn to see the fights that might happen but no, but no the

25:51

The last see he's frozen That's not good

25:58

There now he's unfrozen. All right. Okay. Yeah, you guys hear me at least we might have to do that because it's more important to hear you if that's a

26:07

So yeah, you were talking about your your your your dad Kind of you you had started to Go through conversion therapy was kind of where it started crackling

26:23

Okay, maybe you could pick up from there Yeah, so I It seemed like the more

26:33

I went through therapy the more these feelings actually Enhanced they didn't get better and then when around the time kovat started hitting

26:46

I started embracing the Gay dating scene and I started feeling really objectified and Then about a month before my birthday year 2020

27:02

I Said I'm coming out. I'm gay. I'm done with God.

27:07

I guess atheism is better and I went to bed that night.

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I started singing. How can it be by Lauren Daigle in my sleep? And I just haven't really tried the atheism thing it lasted less than 16 hours

27:25

So I started embracing I started embracing affirming

27:31

Christianity and I found out that they do not have a very good answer for the what

27:38

Believe and they don't really take Scripture and they would get demolished by the

27:44

James White's and the Mike Winger's and all okay For folks in the audience describe what you mean by affirming

27:51

Christianity Just because you're using terms and and not everyone's gonna be familiar with it Yeah, affirming

27:58

Christianity as far as affirming the LGBTQ people. We would believe that LGBTQ people's orientation their identity and their relationship status is in fact valid before God And I have done painstaking research on the concepts that people use to counteract that and I have studied extensively the six or seven passages that are used and part of the reason for me wanting to reach out like this is because the the people that I've seen do this before me such as Rob Bell or John Shelby song or The tick -tock pretty boy

28:38

Brandon Robertson if anyone's heard of him and yeah, it just I would feel like I was pricked in the heart as you and my uncle used to say from our street witnessing days and like my

28:53

Stomach would legit turn When I would hear these so -called Christians just get

29:01

Make these arguments and you know, my heart would ache because I'm like how many more people out there were searching like me you know,

29:09

I want to save the affirming I Want to save the searching

29:15

LGBTQ You know gay lesbian trans bisexual

29:21

Searching person who's closeted who still wants to follow Christ and doesn't want to be

29:27

Excised from the church if that makes sense Okay, so let me ask just to get some ideas where you're at.

29:35

Do you believe that? Homosexuality would be a sin in the Bible. I I Mean if It depends what you define as homosexuality because there is a difference between homosexual actions actually participating in certain actions versus being attracted

30:00

Well, would you would you believe? You know that if I go lusting after a woman, would you believe that's a sin?

30:09

Yes Okay, so so it's a sin if I lust after a woman but it wouldn't be a sin if I lusted after a man

30:18

Well, there's lust You know, I want that person I want to do

30:25

Something to that person. I want to hurt that person and you know, I want to take advantage of them

30:31

Well lusting or not Yeah, luster doesn't has nothing to do with hurting a person

30:39

Okay sexual being sexually exploitative but not Why are we jumping right to lust, you know?

30:46

Well, you did I don't walk around and say, okay right because you you made a difference between the act and the feeling

30:56

Right the thought and so you're saying the thought is okay, but the act is wrong. And so that's why

31:02

I'm asking if if in a heterosexual Lusting is wrong. Then wouldn't lusting be wrong in a homosexual?

31:09

Like what? How do you how do you? How do you Justify that in Homosexual lust is okay, but heterosexual lust is not

31:24

Well, I I am NOT a very lustful person I do not walk around lusting after every guy

31:31

I see just like you probably don't lust after every woman you see Yeah, but They back up though because you added something to it.

31:40

So I want just for clarity I know that Aaron has a what's that's clarifying question, too But I just want clarity.

31:46

I'm not saying that lust is after every person I see If I lust after a woman

31:54

That's not my wife Is that a sin? Even if it's just one woman, is it a sin?

32:04

Yes Okay, no what what I meant what I meant by feeling is being predisposed

32:11

To being attracted to men Well, I think there's a difference between seeing someone as attractive and lusting

32:21

May I ask a clarifying question and obviously, you know, Anthony You know, feel free to answer this with whatever level of transparency you desire

32:32

If I'm hearing you correctly, this is why I want to clarify if I'm hearing you correctly I Think I'm hearing you say that the act of homosexuality

32:43

Intercourse whatever however you want to call it is a sin But you're arguing that the attraction is not am

32:49

I hearing that correctly or are you arguing that? Homosexuality to be engaged physically in a relationship that is not a sin

32:58

No, I don't believe being engaged in the same -sex relationship is a sin Does that I believe

33:07

Good. I Believe yeah, I I think there's a difference between being attracted to somebody and lusting

33:15

True. That wasn't the question. I was trying to get to I'm just trying to Because there there are some people who say that homosexuality as defined by the world, you know same sex, right?

33:28

That actual the act of homosexuality physical contact kissing intercourse

33:34

Whatever the case may be there are some people who say that is not a sin And then there are people who say well that is a sin

33:42

But being attracted to somebody of the same sex is not a sin. So they argue for like a celibate

33:49

Gay Christian type of an approach. I'm just trying to figure out what side of the fence you're arguing. Yes Yes, okay.

33:56

I would be I would be More towards side a in the

34:04

Christian LGBTQ community their side a basically God recognizes

34:10

Same -sex relationships as valid God recognizes same -sex intercourse as valid and then there's side

34:17

B, which is what Aaron was talking about which is You know a celibate type of relationship

34:25

Now as far as the action of like male penetration I have no qualms about I Talking about that openly and we will get to that in a minute, but I'm not talking about lust

34:40

I'm talking about the action the Process of being attracted to a male as a male being attracted to a male.

34:48

Would you call that sinful? That's lust. So yes Well, and I guess maybe

34:56

I'm still a little a little slow here on the pickup you're arguing side a correct that that you know, the the romantic sexual relationships with another man or someone of the same sex is is

35:07

Okay, that's can be glorifying to God you're arguing that Yes.

35:14

Okay. Got you. Thank you. I appreciate you answering that. Thank you for your transparency I just want to make sure I was on there correctly Yeah, say it say what you said again, cuz

35:20

I would want to make sure I I'm just trying to make sure I understand correctly As far as I understand correct me if I'm wrong

35:26

Anthony. He is saying that Homosexuality in this broadest definition is

35:33

It can be glorifying to God so romantic. Yes touching and so on and so forth between same sex would be okay

35:41

But you're saying that wouldn't be lost No, because what makes what is the

35:49

What is the defining difference between male? Opposite sex attraction

35:55

Versus same -sex attraction what makes one completely wrong? Not even a thought and what makes one completely?

36:01

Okay desiring someone sexually is Lost now and I just want to point this out because you know,

36:10

I know your friend Jamie here saying Anthony is being straw manned right now Jamie actually

36:16

That would be false because what we're doing is taking the time to get straight definitions Maybe maybe you don't know what a straw man argument is but a straw man argument is when you make an argument.

36:28

That's not What someone's actually arguing and then you attack that it's a straw man because easy to knock down We're taking the time

36:36

Jamie to understand the position So we don't do that might be good for you to practice the same just saying

36:42

Leah I think is saying I think the definitions are getting confused That's the reason I'm taking the time and I think

36:48

Aaron as well to make sure we understand Anthony's definitions before we start to address them.

36:54

So you know, but I'm just gonna say for some of you on the comments, you know

37:00

You guys have are getting knee -jerk reactions when right first time ever engaging with me or or Aaron and so You got to be able to discuss these things honestly

37:16

Without you know rhetoric and so if you're gonna say that we're strawman and we're asking for definitions or we're confusing definitions when we're

37:25

Asking for definitions so that we could be precise and have good conversation Then you guys are not

37:32

Engaging an honest discussion. I think Anthony is so far so and I also too

37:38

I think it's really quick just to make sure that we're all on the same page because Voltaire is not somebody that the average

37:44

Christian wants to quote because of how much he was against Christian against God And yet he said something that's really valuable.

37:52

He's been a paraphrasing He basically said if you want to have a conversation with me, you have to define our terms, right?

38:00

Biblically speaking and from my perspective as a Christian as a biblical counselor, everything has got to go back to the scriptures.

38:05

Okay And we get really really really in trouble When and I'm just gonna be really blunt about this every

38:12

Christian listening We get super in trouble if our at the deepest level of our biblical understanding stops at the

38:18

English And I praise God for English translations, and I do believe that we have God's Word in English However, the conversation that's happening right here right now

38:26

I think is a perfect example of the fact that we need to be more diligent in our Understanding of the scriptures because the word lust the

38:32

Greek word in particular translated lust in the in the New Testament Can be translated a number of different ways.

38:40

It can actually be translated attracted. It can be translated Covet coveted.

38:46

It can also be translated delight Desirable to desire desired desires pleasing precious precious things.

38:54

These are different ways that these words can be translated throughout the scriptures and And so the the word for lust the word translated lust quite frequently and the word translated desire are the same

39:08

Greek word So we have to be very careful if we're yeah, if we're saying something like, you know, well, you know, it's wrong to lust

39:15

But it's okay to desire it. We're almost revealing at that moment a lack of understanding

39:20

There are some desires that glorify God and there are some desires that don't so just if I'm not lusting

39:25

I'm just desiring I'm not lusting. I'm just attracted. I'm not Well, I mean the Merriam -Webster defines attraction as something that attracts or is intended to attract people by appealing to their desires and tastes so attraction desires lusts

39:44

These are all synonymous terms within the context of what we see in scripture So it doesn't it's not you can't just pick apart lusting versus desiring

39:52

We have to see what the Bible says is okay to lust after and would desire after and what's not Okay Yeah, can

40:01

I just make a statement for my onlookers who are getting much much more triggered than I am

40:08

Yeah, Seth and Jamie and Leah Jordan, I Can handle it myself.

40:17

I am NOT once triggered at all You know I Start to break up and All right, so you fix the

40:34

Internet You're doing that Yeah, Aaron knows or so Anthony knows

40:40

Anthony. We we always have a lively Yeah Even without your friends in here

40:47

They they like to have good discussion that sometimes goes side aside from the show

40:53

So don't let yourself be distracted By the chat. I'll try to bring comments up times.

40:58

There are three different conversations going on in the chat There's nothing to do with what we're talking about folks are not watching live.

41:05

I'll just say Yeah, the chat can be having a discussion has nothing to do with the show.

41:11

And so we generally like we read it and sometimes we could go off on tangents with what goes on the chat and so Yeah, so focus on what you want to say

41:25

Bring up some of the things, you know, I try to keep an eye on it now I'll tag some of them will bring them up later in discussion but All right.

41:33

How about now? You better Okay, so, um, but I I do think

41:41

Aaron based on what you were saying. I Understand what you're saying about desire and lust being a sin

41:48

However, I Think that the sin comes When it goes over excessive, you know, it's not a sin to have pride but or You know to take care of yourself but when you

42:04

When it goes over a certain threshold, I believe God's Spirit testifies to us that we shouldn't be walking in that way

42:11

Do you have a do you have like a particular? Biblical illustration or command or passage that because I just want so, you know

42:21

Just so you know if you hear me say something like well I think or I feel or it's my opinion or I you know, so on and so forth

42:27

You can feel free to throw up the red flag because right if it comes right down to what I think and what I feel

42:33

Was this a waste of time to listen to anything that I'm saying because I'm not God I don't get the final word And so I'm gonna hold you to the same standard that I'm gonna hold myself to I respect the fact that you believe what you

42:43

Just said, but can you point to the scriptures to support that fact that lust is only a sin when it crosses a certain seemingly subjective line

42:52

Okay well like For instance, we look at the book

42:58

Song of Songs, you know That was Solomon expressing love and desire for a certain woman

43:11

His wife or his wife or one of his many wives But you know,

43:17

I could say I have a strong desire to follow God but you know if I'm if I am using that strong desire to follow

43:26

God and pasting it all over everything and saying, you know, I'm better than you and You know not listening to instruction and hearing different things

43:39

And being open I believe that it is You know, that's where it becomes sin.

43:46

I Would agree with you to a point with the exception that you can say that you desire after God But if what you're doing

43:52

Some of the examples that you just gave are clearly not things that would please the Lord then doesn't really matter what you say

43:58

You're not actually desiring God see and I think that's a that's a key thing what people say versus what people do

44:04

You know James made it very clear that our works Will will show what we believe far better than our mouths will

44:12

So yeah, so I mean I I see what you're saying, but it's got it. I think for me it's got to go beyond Just the you know the claim

44:21

To desire after something because I don't think if something is truly biblically right and good there is no excess in fact

44:28

Jesus himself quoted from the Psalms saying that the zeal of the Lord has consumed me and that word zeal that that word of being

44:35

Zealot was like it was almost to a certain degree depending on the context synonymous with terrorism like a

44:41

Terrorist was a zealot right and but Jesus is saying the zeal of the Lord the passion of the Lord There was there was no degree to which he lusted after something so Good that it became wrong.

44:53

I think in the scriptures. I think we're gonna see a pretty clear thing This is wrong. Don't do it ever.

44:59

This is right. Do it all the time Right oversimplify, but I think that's what we're gonna see every time we open up the scriptures like One example came to mind and this is one of my favorite passages.

45:10

My dad used to quote it all the time Revelation chapter 2

45:15

I believe 2 or 3 I should have wrote down the reference But where the Spirit of God is talking to the church in Ephesus, you know, he lists all these good things

45:24

You know that they're doing right, but then he says, you know You've forgotten what's important year you have all of this pride that you're doing the right thing and all of this

45:36

Desire to do the right thing, but you're not embracing what's important, but I Don't really see what love and lust has to do with this conversation because Almost no on same -sex attracted person that I know walks down the street and says ooh, there's a hot guy there

45:58

I want to get in on him. You know, I want to fantasize about that You're going to define lust that way

46:06

Then fine But the reason I quoted Voltaire earlier and the reason I went to the scriptures to define for us what lust is

46:13

Lust and desire are synonymous things Lust desire and attraction are synonymous concepts.

46:20

So that's how I'm gonna be using it. That's how he's gonna be using it That's how the scripture uses it if you want to use it in a different way, that's okay but please what

46:27

I would ask that you do is don't say that that Like what we're saying about lust and desire is wrong because it disagrees with you because we're trying to be consistent with the scriptures on that point

46:37

Right. You're right. Lust is not always just oh There's somebody I want to get in their pants. Oh, there's somebody I want to get her in bed

46:43

No, that's not what the scriptures is talking about when it's talking about less But in my mind and tell me if you think

46:49

I'm wrong with this Can you? Can you have? Sexual relations with someone without thinking of them sexually.

47:01

No So if the scripture is clear that we can't have sexual thoughts

47:09

With anybody who we're not who's not our spouse our husband or wife then wouldn't every act of Of Sex outside of marriage whether heterosexual or homosexual be sin

47:30

Well, you're not talking to I I don't really want to get into the sexual specifics but you're not talking to somebody who

47:40

Really wants to have sexual relationships outside of somebody that I am

47:49

Not married to or at least in a loving committed relationship to so Yes, I believe that I just want clarify

47:58

So but you're when you're saying that you're saying you're saying though that with another man, right? Yes.

48:03

Okay So You're sitting you and I'm asking this because I want to make sure we're clear on things, right?

48:11

You're saying you believe that Lust the way we're defining it right having sexual desires for someone who you're not married to is a sin

48:21

Right. Yes, okay So now you're you're gonna make a case

48:28

And and the re it well, I'll get to the reason I asked that well, I'll just I'll say it now is

48:34

The the reason I bring up the issue of lust is because of what you said earlier

48:39

Anthony and and I'm trying I don't want to get distracted. I won't give you a chance to make your argument but since I said

48:45

I kind of stepped in as I should finish the thought and but You know, you you basically said well, this is the you had this attraction and therefore

48:57

You you're able to embrace it and you you mentioned earlier that the the spirit would testify and Becomes my question would end up being how does he testify?

49:07

How do we know it's the spirit confirming something or how do we know it's the spirit versus just our own feelings

49:14

Because I mean you you would agree. We have sinful feelings, right? Yes. Okay. So how could we determine whether?

49:21

It's the Holy Spirit testifying versus our own spirit testifying

49:29

By the fruits that are led, you know does Do my actions and do my inner thoughts and my inner interpretations of Scripture Lead me to love people lead me to make them feel valued lead to a good end result or do the desires that I have lead to abuse of a fellow man

49:58

You know depression drug abuse even Compromising my own values because I've been on both sides of the of the situation.

50:08

We have to look at The end result of our actions. Okay, so I know just I want to make again

50:15

I'm making sure I make sure I'm clear with all right. So you're saying the Holy Spirit The way we know it's of him is based on the the fruit our feelings how we treat others versus abuse and depression

50:29

What is that accurate Yes, there are other things too, but that was specifically what

50:34

I went through So so would you say that the your authority then would be your your feelings?

50:42

No No, but but these things you mentioned were about feelings Well with my feelings my own personal feelings

50:53

I see in Anglicanism We have the three -legged stool of Christianity. I do not base my my

51:02

Faith and my worldview solely on scripture. I would go by church tradition by my own reason and scripture and then sometimes

51:13

Wesleyan throw a fourth category in there The Christian experience and so all of those things

51:21

Brought together, but when I have feelings, of course, I do check it with the

51:27

Word of God and then I look at What Please don't get into sexual spastics.

51:35

Yeah So Anthony Will bring up comments that if there's a company you want to address.

51:42

Let me know and I'll bring that up Okay, you know you you can get distracted by the we got a very lively chat every every week

51:51

You know, I I Bring all of those things together You know the way

51:57

I check my own feelings is first and foremost through prayer the scriptures and through spiritual mentors in my life, but no if I went by my feelings

52:07

I would be curled up in a gutter on the streets of Lancaster County after my

52:14

Ex -boyfriend did what he did to me and we don't need to get into specifics of that so To that point you made about the the three -legged stool and I think it's just it's viable to address these things as we go along I think one of the most petrifying

52:30

Passages in the entirety of the scriptures comes from Jesus's words in Matthew chapter 7 starting verse 21

52:36

Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven But he who does the will of my father who is in heaven will enter

52:44

He goes on to say that many people are going to claim that they've prophesied They've cast out demons and they performed many miracles earlier

52:52

So first of all, you know our lived Experiences don't get to speak into the reality of whether or not we're truly born again

52:59

God does because at the end of that passage Jesus says to these individuals whose lived experiences were far more

53:06

Spiritually phenomenal than mine ever have been I've never prophesied never cast out demons never performed any miracles, right?

53:12

But Jesus is going to say to these people depart from me. I never knew you you who practice lawlessness Okay, so so on the one side our experiences mean very little on the other side

53:23

Sinful people can do good things by God's common grace You know right now we're looking at you know, this terrible thing going on in the

53:30

Middle East, right? I guarantee you that these terrorists who are doing wicked awful terrible things are

53:37

Somewhat decent individuals from time to time They might go home and tuck their daughters in and give them a kiss on the head and maybe read them a story and buy

53:44

Their friend a beer or whatever else right? That's because of God's common grace So we have to be careful when we're arguing that my lifestyle choices are okay

53:53

Because I desire good things. I do good things, right? Therefore I'm okay because even

53:59

Jesus himself says that doesn't work that way Okay Yeah, I Have that verse thrown at me many many times, but I think

54:13

I just got you guys on something What You know

54:22

Explaining the clobber passage we will get to that before it's over. I will make sure What is the will of Christ Christianity and Christ have always identified with the marginalized and I believe that you know

54:37

Jesus was saying it does not matter What you say you can do it doesn't matter about your actions, you know, you can prophesy you can say all of those things

54:48

But if you're not putting God first if you're not putting others first it just Nothing.

54:56

None of your good works could be done, you know None of you Yeah, I agree with I agree with that statement.

55:05

So what's the where did you get us? So, you know and then there's the parable about the sheep and the goats and the only

55:14

But wouldn't you say? pedophiles Wouldn't you say that the

55:20

LGBTQ people are the marginalized of society the ones the churches have said?

55:26

Should be lined up and shot in the back of the head. No, we can Texas. Okay So so let's let's deal with that you're speaking of Muslims would do

55:34

Christians want to evangelize Okay, I practice homosexuality Muslims want to throw them off buildings.

55:41

So so that's a first off That's a straw man argument because you should know the scriptures First off the scriptures would be really clear.

55:49

It's the Christians who are marginalized It's the Jewish people that were marginalized It was the people who believe in God versus the whole world system that does not and that whole world system every single group can claim

56:01

They're marginalized This is this is the the faulty thinking of intersectionality because everybody's looking to say

56:08

I'm something special because I'm marginalized and The reality is is every human being is is unique in some ways and yet everyone is still human so when people

56:20

So true that there are people who are genuinely marginalized for very good reasons.

56:25

For example cannibals Are they a marginalized, you know group of individuals?

56:32

Yes, they are and they should be so Jesus I agree with you that Jesus did you know?

56:40

He didn't neglect a person simply because they fell into a certain category But he also just didn't open his arms wide and say all of you who are marginalized

56:50

Continue to live the way you are. I love you as you are. You don't need to change Yeah, and that's that's why when

56:55

I put the comment because you mentioned that Christianity is about the the marginalized but but the question is

57:04

Which marginalized group because everybody's a marginalized group in some way Okay. Now Jamie West is saying that Christians aren't marginalized in the army.

57:14

Like where's that comment? There it is Christians aren't marginalized in in in the u .s. Sorry.

57:19

Yes. I saw I said army in the u .s Actually, I'm sorry to disappoint you but they are if Christians weren't marginalized abortion would never have been legal

57:30

You wouldn't have The things that are against God's law as legal

57:36

So yeah, the reality is is that you know as someone else is asking is you know, our maps marginalized?

57:42

So if you don't know what maps are maps is minor attracted people

57:49

Aka pet of pedophiles You know, they're the reality is that right now you'd have to say that If we're gonna look at the numbers

58:01

Homosexuality is supposedly with young kids in school the majority now so therefore you by your definition if the majority of kids are

58:14

Coming out homosexual then they're not mind Marginalized and therefore they can't be

58:20

Christian. Would that be a logical way of thinking? No No, you guys jumped from about here to Antarctica with what

58:29

I said Jesus Jesus went for the people who were not

58:35

Casting out demons and not praying and not giving, you know a chapter before that Or a chapter or two before that.

58:44

He was condemning the Pharisees for having extra -large gatherings and prayers in the marketplace and making broad their flackery as the

58:53

King James says and things like that and For me as a same -sex attracted person.

58:59

That is what I want to have you know, I want to be the publican with his face down in the dirt who says, you know,

59:09

God be merciful to me as a sinner and I don't think that Just because I am predisposed to be attracted to males rather than females that I'm somehow

59:21

Cut out from experiencing God's blessing. Okay, so let's let's examine that then so when

59:27

Jesus Did approach people when he approaches? Prostitutes did they continue in their prostitution?

59:37

No, why not? well But because prostitution

59:46

Selling your body out making yourself an object is completely wrong however,

59:51

I think this is where the disconnect is you can be a same -sex attracted prostitute as You can be a heterosexually attracted prostitute

01:00:01

Your your sexual disposition and desires come before anything cannibalistic or pedophiles or anything

01:00:08

I would be Completely Against Pedophilia and all of those things.

01:00:16

Yes, that's fine. I'm just so the prostitute comes to Christ and gives up prostitution

01:00:22

What about the tax collector who is? Taking for folks who don't understand how tax collection worked in that day

01:00:30

Let me just give a quick explanation the the Roman government would hire tax collectors if they're you know in Judaism You're starting in Judah.

01:00:39

They would they find someone who's Jewish here You get a tax booth the tax collector can charge whatever he wants

01:00:46

As long as the the Roman government gets there what they say has to be paid and so they would abuse people and take more than they should so Did the tax collectors continue with that practice when they got saved when they came to Christ?

01:01:02

No, okay, so they were marginalized People but they gave that up when they came to Christ.

01:01:08

Yes. Okay, and But there is a difference in the way we're using marginalized, you know,

01:01:17

I I am NOT speaking for the gay person who

01:01:22

Is trying to get with as many people as they can and you know, probably say yeah

01:01:29

I know I'm exploiting people. I know I'm selling myself out, but you know, I don't want to change

01:01:34

Yeah, let me say what I think you're talking about so so we can make sure we're clear I think you're speaking of someone that is in a monogamous same -sex relationship

01:01:46

Right Yes, okay. So we're definitely here what you're saying.

01:01:51

That's you know, don't be confused about that I think the real issue is that I want to keep down this room for a moment.

01:01:58

So so the thief Who who comes to Christ does he continue?

01:02:03

Stealing no However, the Bible provides a very very clear

01:02:11

Solution for that, you know Paul says let him who stole steal no longer But let him rather working with the labor working with his hands.

01:02:19

We don't see a if being if even having instead of having a heterosexual desire

01:02:28

Even somebody who is just predisposed to having a homosexual desire. We don't see a clear

01:02:38

Solution for that in Scripture Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do. We do. Where's that?

01:02:44

Well, well actually Andrew if you don't mind, I'm curious I think I think the linchpin of this whole conversation and it is possible for us to kind of chase our tails on this one

01:02:52

Is that again? We're not we're not really dealing with the crux of the issue if I'm not mistaken Anthony from your position you

01:03:00

You do not believe that the Bible says that all forms of homosexuality are sin, right?

01:03:06

No, I do not. Okay, so I I guess Andrew and I do believe that the

01:03:12

Bible condemns that And you already mentioned that you are prepared to deal with the six passages and so on and so on and so forth

01:03:21

I'm interested. I think I think if we can nail that one down I think if we can discuss that one everything else wraps up of this because because Andrew's point is a very valid one

01:03:30

It doesn't matter how marginalized you are. It doesn't matter what sin you're wrapped up in if you come to know Christ repentance sanctification change

01:03:39

That's required of us. We need to grow away from our sin toward Christ And so therefore our argument is simply a homosexual definitely can come to Christ be born again be saved from that sin and be changed

01:03:51

But you don't see that way because you don't think the Bible says that it's wrong so I'm I think maybe And I think

01:03:57

Andrew is that a good place to go? Well, yeah Because I want to go to a passage scripture because I was leading down a certain way with you and this is you know the first Corinthians 6

01:04:07

I'll start in verse 9 Got it, or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

01:04:16

Do not be deceived neither the sexually immoral Nor idler idolaters nor adulterers nor men who practice homosexuality

01:04:26

Nor thieves nor greedy nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers

01:04:32

Will inherit the kingdom of God mistake that many people make You've probably seen it on the streets as well that those who go out with the signs and they put just that there they don't read the very next verse, which is the most important one and Such were some of you but you were

01:04:52

You were you are Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

01:04:57

So all the things that you're saying Well, I agree with you that yes Jesus came to the the people who practice homosexuality the greedy the drunkards the thieves the adulterers

01:05:08

He came to all those But they didn't stay there the whole point is that they came to Christ and changed

01:05:18

That's that's the thing that I'm trying to say with it so you you're agreeing with all these others

01:05:25

Why do you make a distinction then when it comes to the homosexuality? Well, I I was prepared for this or since we're talking about going to the original languages

01:05:36

I assume you guys know what and is that the English Standard Version? That one

01:05:41

I read from the English Standard I usually read out of the New American Standard, but I can read that one instead if you want.

01:05:49

Um, no, it's fine. I have the Christian Standard Bible Next to me. It doesn't materially at face value say anything different and says males who have sex with males

01:05:59

Yeah Yeah, the New American Standard says effeminate nor homosexual

01:06:07

And yeah, so yeah, the the English wording isn't very important there

01:06:12

But art since we're talking about going beyond the English language. I assume you guys are more familiar

01:06:18

With the Greek terms that are used there arsenic. I tie a Malik way Yeah, okay now, um, are you aware also that we only see that in Two passages in Scripture first Timothy 110 and first Corinthians 6 9 word is in first Corinthians 6 9 and Timothy 1 10.

01:06:41

Yes Okay Now are you also familiar that one chapter earlier

01:06:49

Paul condemned the Corinthian Church for having a sin that was not even named among the

01:06:57

Gentiles for a man was sleeping with a stepmom Yeah Okay.

01:07:03

Now because that that word was

01:07:08

Not used before Paul coined it and seldom used after in the scripture and for hundreds of years

01:07:16

Hold on. It was not word was not used before arsenic. I tie you're saying it was never used

01:07:22

Before Paul coined it and put them together. No, even James White admits that It comes from people theorize it comes from the

01:07:33

Septuagint al terms of Leviticus 18 arsenic up Arsenos and quite basically man better But that the specific compound word was not put before Paul used it in first Corinthians 6 even

01:07:52

James White admits that Paul could have coined it himself Okay, I can't speak to that Yeah, it doesn't necessarily matter in my estimation, but by all means continue.

01:08:03

Yeah. Yeah, okay So my I'll just say print also coined the term that we use for inspiration

01:08:12

But we know what it means Right, but okay Yeah, and Well, yeah but I'm just saying that And there are about 17 other words that Paul could have used for same -sex attraction

01:08:30

However, let me make my point. Um Don't you think it is possible that?

01:08:38

Paul coined a certain situation to describe cultic abuse that was going on of status older men in the

01:08:47

Roman Corinthian culture Um Abusing younger men. I mean even the

01:08:53

New King James Bible in the footnote says that Malacost which is the term they translate as homosexual

01:08:59

Could mean calumite which is a boy put away for prostitution so,

01:09:05

I mean do all the other words are all the other words can we do the same thing with those and Explain those away by saying that there's some

01:09:14

You know like stealing is okay if you're doing it for the Roman government, so being a tax collector is fine

01:09:20

I Mean adultery is okay. As long as you don't act on it. Idolatry is okay

01:09:26

I mean you could do that with every one of these the But what you're doing when you do that is missing the main point of the passage

01:09:36

The main point is not being deceived that these sinful behaviors people change when they came to Christ And that's what

01:09:44

I was in They never did there's no I And I know many other people that did not one one other thing to consider here too is

01:09:54

Your hermeneutic. Are you familiar with that term? Yes Your hermeneutic and for anyone who's listening who's not familiar with it is basically how how we interpret the scriptures, right?

01:10:05

It's very important that we don't ever look at a text of Scripture in isolation, okay, right

01:10:12

Yes, what you proposed Sure, I can't argue logically that that Could not have happened like Paul could not have made up that term in order to communicate a very specific

01:10:24

Meaning so on and so forth. Yeah, I can't argue that he wouldn't have done that but I Do know that God inspired the scriptures.

01:10:31

It's never gonna contradict itself. It's always going to agree I also know that Paul himself was a very studied very learned man, right?

01:10:38

So he would have been familiar with another passage that no doubt you're you're prepared to address and I'm interested to hear your thoughts

01:10:44

He would have recognized that Leviticus 18 21 through 30 Is so I say 22 and 23 in particular really are

01:10:54

They're really helpful in that they don't necessarily focus on a specific term to define to label identify homosexuality

01:11:00

But it actually refers to the action you shall not lie with a male as one who lies with a female

01:11:06

It is an abomination abomination being the strongest word that God uses in the Old Testament to deal with any type of sin

01:11:12

Idolatry is referred to as an abomination. Okay, it's a big deal. So So understanding what

01:11:18

Paul knew as a human being it would be difficult to say that You know that that necessarily was what he was trying to do considering that from verses like this and other passages

01:11:30

It's clear that homosexuality is condemned by God But then the bigger picture that the scriptures come from God, there are no mistakes in it.

01:11:38

It's inerrant. It's completely perfect It doesn't contradict itself to look at that verse and to kind of pigeonhole it into a very specific meaning when the scriptures are

01:11:50

Abundantly clear on the opposite side. I think the dangerous thing to do. I mean, do you agree with that or no?

01:11:56

well, there are a lot of things in first Corinthians specifically that are

01:12:01

Dealing with that time period I Mean specifically with that church. I mean not every church is going around And has someone sleeping with their stepmom.

01:12:13

You might be surprised. Yeah well, not any that I want to fellowship with you and There, you know, we find the whole head covering passage and that is another four -hour discussion.

01:12:25

I've done four -hour seminars on that you know and Then we have abuse of communion, you know

01:12:35

It Paul did not have to address at least those three specific things to all the churches We see other things that Paul addressed in all of the other churches

01:12:44

And I do not believe that scripture has to say it more than once but what

01:12:49

I'm saying You're breaking up you're breaking up and you just got to your your important point so We don't want to miss that We're gonna give him a second to clarify to get that fixed or okay now it sounds better.

01:13:09

All right, go ahead Okay So I would read first Corinthians 6 9 not as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality, but you know of Expressing force over somebody who is like dominating someone, you know

01:13:26

The active and passive partners in a male, you know, what relationship? Okay, but the other passages are not taught the other

01:13:37

Language in all the others are not talking about abuse so when we do the hermeneutics first off what

01:13:42

I had said you you're missing the main point of it, which is that These people did these things before they were saved

01:13:50

But now they no longer do those things. That's the main point of it Now if you're gonna argue that it's you're gonna try to make this nuanced argument

01:13:58

Okay, Aaron brought up Leviticus. I would bring up Romans 1 what why because they're there we're talking definite definition of terms

01:14:07

This is defining the terms now I'm also gonna say the because I use you use this term earlier clobber passages that is a poisoning the well argument

01:14:20

Okay By saying it's a clobber passages if you're someone's using it abusively

01:14:25

No What we're doing is we're looking at what the scripture says the question for you is are you in line with the scripture? Is the scripture gonna clobber you the scripture clobbers everyone when they're in sin?

01:14:36

Okay. Well, it's very clear in Romans 1 what what God's view is on this it says

01:14:43

Start verse 1 start chapter 1 from verse 24 Therefore God gave them over to the lusts of their heart to impurity

01:14:54

Not good. The lusts of their heart is not good say oh, it's impurity It says so that their bodies would be dishonored among them for they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and Worshipped and served the creature rather than the

01:15:10

Creator who is blessed forever. Amen For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions for their women exchanged the natural function

01:15:22

For that which is unnatural and the same way also, the men abandoned the natural function of women and burned in their desire toward another men with men committing indecent acts and Receiving their own persons the due penalty of their error.

01:15:44

That's really clear that the act itself God is saying he's using terms of of impurity

01:15:54

You know abandoned The natural function or the natural function scripture says is man and woman

01:16:02

He's saying that by doing that you're abandoning that so now you take that Whether you want to say that the the other passage in 1st

01:16:11

Corinthians 6 is not it's talking about this hybrid view of Homosexuality which by the way nobody held to in history

01:16:24

Until recent times when people were trying to make excuses for homosexuality in the

01:16:29

Bible You don't see that ever you find me a lexicon that makes the argument It's it's not gonna exist

01:16:35

So the reality is that was there was that type of relationship happening in Rome?

01:16:42

Yes, it was does anyone argue that that's what was that speaking about not until recent and so the thing here is

01:16:50

When we look at the totality of scripture This passage is really clear on the view of homo the act of homosexuality

01:16:58

The point I was bringing with 1st Corinthians 6 is the fact that someone desires something

01:17:05

Doesn't justify it. The fact is that we had we all are in sin

01:17:11

Before we come to Christ and all of us every one of us If I'm lusting for women and you're lusting for men both of us have to change in that Both of us put that aside

01:17:21

In it if if I'm committing adultery with another woman and you're committing Homosexuality that's still adultery you know, it's still the same thing of then it's

01:17:34

Sorry, but as a Christian we give up those things. We're washing the blood. We shouldn't be deceived and My concern for you

01:17:41

Anthony is that but what Paul saying you're deceived in this I mean just listen to what you said with your testimony that it's like you didn't want to be an atheist

01:17:50

But you found a way to to say you're a Christian while practicing or wanting to be in a same -sex relationship and and the concern that I would have for you is that you're you'd be deceived and in a group with of others who are

01:18:05

Furthering it and what you need to do is get saved and and I look I don't know what the conversion the conversion therapy

01:18:12

You were talking about. I don't talk about conversion therapy. I talk about getting right with God And if you're practicing sin

01:18:22

Whether it's adultery stealing idolatry homosexuality you name the sin if this is a regular practice and Something that the person is saying

01:18:36

I can I can be a murderous Christian. No, you can't You can't you could be a

01:18:44

Christian who who Continues to sin because the influence of sin is still in the flesh

01:18:50

You continue to sin, but you don't embrace the sin. You hate the sin Okay, and they look like one of the things when people question

01:18:58

Bill come to me and say well, I don't know if I'm really a Christian like they start having doubts of their Christianity The question

01:19:03

I always ask people is when you sin Do you hate the sin or hate the consequence?

01:19:10

Because if you hate the consequence then you're probably not you know, then it's just you're not a Christian you just don't want people to know a

01:19:17

Christian hates the sin but if you're embracing the sin and justifying it then I Don't I just don't see how you could be a

01:19:25

Christian. I don't know your heart clearly right, you don't know mine, but Can I give a

01:19:34

Reply to the Romans one passage because this is something that I have studied in depth when

01:19:40

I was 16 Are you too familiar with the Church of Wells? Yes, you you shouldn't know.

01:19:45

I'm very familiar with it. But okay Yeah, we kind of fell out of contact. I am as well, but that would be a four and a half hour video

01:19:53

I did a two hour YouTube video on them myself Friends with Matt Meyer the whole shebang, but our family folks

01:20:00

They're a cult that is in Wells, Texas We've done some things in the past with them, but it's been a long time since brought up but they're they're a cult that reached out to open air event with the evangelism community and tried to bring everyone to Wells, Texas where they the the three kind of founders believe that they have a special spiritual gift that only like basically only they can interpret the

01:20:24

Bible rightly and They have a gift of discernment to determine who's saved or not and They have you tell your testimony and it's amazing because no one's ever saved

01:20:35

Rightly until they agree with the guys in Wells, Texas right Yeah, okay when

01:20:43

I was 16 those three goofballs Called me possessed and tried to do an exorcism over me

01:20:49

My dad read Romans one but started it with but when Anthony knew God he glorified him not as God Took off that whole passage

01:20:59

Back up say that so he he read that passage putting your name in there.

01:21:04

Yes So I am more than familiar Was this I'm just trying you understand was this before after you came out and said you were a homosexual

01:21:16

Way before I was 16 by about a decade Okay, my parents have forever excised that out of their brains

01:21:25

I Was still trying to get healed from it Do Romans 1 and 1st

01:21:32

Corinthians 6 11 contradict in your opinion? because in my opinion if they're talking about the same thing they do and I do not believe concepts in the

01:21:41

New Testament written by the same author contradict We'll say that again Romans 1 in what passage 1st 1st

01:21:47

Corinthians 6 11 11, but 9 to 11 And They and I would say they both speak of the same act if you're speaking of the one -word

01:22:00

Homosexuality and this description in Romans 1. No, I disagree for God gave them over to a reprobate mind a point of no return and then at the end of Romans 1 it says it's even a shame to speak of those who do

01:22:15

Those things and then 1st Corinthians 6 11 says but such were some of you and you were washed

01:22:22

One saying God is making God is letting them be reprobate and then the other is saying you can be washed

01:22:28

No, I see that as a contradiction Well, yeah, I could see why you see it as a contradiction because you're adding to scripture.

01:22:36

You're not reading scripture You've you've put something in you give the you end up giving a new meaning to this, right?

01:22:42

I do Well, you're saying that the homosexuality in 1st Corinthians 6 is is an abusive homosexual relationship.

01:22:49

It doesn't say that You're you're you're inserting that and but the thing is is that you're you're trying to say that in verse in verse 1

01:22:59

That it's saying that if you practice this you can never be regenerate and invert in chapter 6 of Corinthians.

01:23:06

You can be But it's speaking to two different groups of people Isn't it it's speaking to one group of people that commits sins

01:23:14

Where they've been given over to those sins and another group of people that did do those sins, but have been saved

01:23:20

So the point of 1st Corinthians 6 is that even though someone commits these sins They still can come to Christ and be washed in the blood

01:23:30

Okay, we agree on that No, but we don't agree on is that 1st

01:23:36

Corinthians 6 says that you will change from those behaviors exactly but No, I believe that you can be washed from sin

01:23:48

It's what those sins are that you can be washed from You know, um when

01:23:54

I was with my first ex -boyfriend, I got into drugs drinking lying Alcohol all of those things none of my fruits lined up with anything in the scripture people that I used to preach to and lead

01:24:07

Bible study with Would be like why I went by my middle name there.

01:24:12

That's why I have an under Anthony Tyler They're like you're not the same Tyler or Anthony we met before What happened to you?

01:24:19

You've completely changed and When I Got out of that relationship

01:24:25

I was it was so abusive that I just finally sat down and I lifted my hands up and I said

01:24:31

Lord Who am I and you know, I don't Lie anymore the way that I used to I don't steal things.

01:24:39

I don't get into drugs, you know, isn't the fact of regeneration Isn't the fruits of regeneration that I've been regenerate no and My point of Romans 1 and 1st

01:24:52

Corinthians 6 was if they are talking about the same form of homosexuality Why does one say?

01:24:59

If you're turned over and then the other ones say you can be washed because I may okay

01:25:05

Let me answer answered it They just take one thing real quick and I'm gonna hand it over to you

01:25:11

Would you say the same thing then with the idolatry which is mentioned in both? Again you can be a homosexual idolatry as you know,

01:25:22

I'm not anything about homosexuality. Okay, I'm trying to see if you're gonna be consistent Okay, because they both also mentioned idolatry

01:25:30

Romans 1 just like it describes homosexuality by defining it in detail same

01:25:36

So it does with idolatry which first Corinthians 6 mentions. Are you saying that this was an abusive?

01:25:41

Idolatrous relationship does Paul use a new word for idolatry. I Mean if we're gonna compare you to take your argument,

01:25:49

I want to see if you're gonna be consistent with it Right, but he is advocating for Christian idolatry, huh?

01:25:57

Nobody's advocating for that. So I think I think you guys you're I think there's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of talking past Yeah, I want to I want to I want to hold on I want to hang on to this because I want to so so let's look at this in in Romans 1

01:26:12

Okay It it says that in verse 23 they exchange the glory of the

01:26:17

Incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and a burns and four -footed animals and crawling things.

01:26:24

What is that? What's that? Idolatry, so now when we have in first Corinthians 6

01:26:33

Right 9 to 11 and it says in there nor idolaters

01:26:41

Oh You have two things that's in both passages So are you saying that that then the word the idolater in first Corinthians 6 must be some abuse of idolatry?

01:26:56

No, no, I just want to keep working with this so are they the same type of idolatry

01:27:04

It doesn't really tell us Paul went All went into excessive detail there with idolatry and it was a very specific type because well

01:27:15

In Romans 1 he goes into detail both, correct? That's my point.

01:27:22

And okay, maybe I didn't make this very clear People will use those two interchangeably

01:27:30

Without any distinction. I'm not using interchangeably. I'm using them Idolatry to idolatry homosexuality and homosexuality you're saying it's a different homosexuality and Your your proof of it is that in Romans 1 they can't be regenerated.

01:27:47

But in in first Corinthians 6 they can But then we have the idolatry to idolatry

01:27:53

Are you saying the same thing because now you have the description just like you have with the homosexuality just being described in Romans 1

01:28:00

And the word being used in first Corinthians 6 So therefore if you're going to be consistent the idolatry has to be an abusive idolatry to be consistent in your argument because if it's

01:28:14

Idolaters then it means that the that what I said is consistent and your view has to be changed that Paul speaking of two different groups of people unregenerate and regenerate

01:28:27

Right, and that was my point I'm just saying can we not and the reason maybe

01:28:34

I didn't make this I'm not saying you guys are clobbering me with those that is what?

01:28:39

People in general just call them both Christian and non -christian alike, you know, they say

01:28:45

They say oh What I would say Christians don't use that term.

01:28:51

I say I would say I would say Unbelievers use the term or those who want to promote homosexuality as being consistent with Christianity would use it that way those that are promoting

01:29:02

Homosexuality use it the word clobber because as I said, it's it's a logical fallacy called poisoning the well, it just negates the argument

01:29:10

Right. No, my point is there are six passages in Scripture that Even Christians will say oh, yeah

01:29:19

LGBTQ folks Feel that They get clobbered by six passages.

01:29:25

I I thought you knew what they were Romans 1 Genesis 19 those ones

01:29:30

Yeah, I'm not saying you guys are clobbering me with them. Yes Now I mean, oh, go ahead

01:29:36

Anthony. That's right now. Um Okay, so I do have to ask because I have had people use those even

01:29:45

James White if you watched the debate I told you about is New Testament consistent with New New Testament obedience where he went up against pastor

01:29:56

Dwayne J. Robinson and Reverend Ruth from the MCC Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? But I know what you're talking when him and dr.

01:30:05

Brown went up He he went from within five minutes tears in his eyes saying

01:30:10

I'm sorry If you've been told you can never turn around that isn't what the scripture says. It says you can be washed you can be sanctified

01:30:17

In accordance with Romans 6 11 or throw idolatry in there, too But Romans 1 gives an illusion of being turned over.

01:30:26

So how can we consistently apply those? What is the determining factor there

01:30:32

Because I would say it's excessive. Well, I already I already answered whether they're not but go ahead

01:30:38

Aaron Andrew did answer it That's for sure. He did First of all, I would say Anthony and I tell everyone that's

01:30:45

I tell my own children this If there is contradiction and disagreement in the scriptures throw it out

01:30:50

God's not worth your time. He's impotent. He doesn't exist It's a fairy tale forget about it, right? However ones that are wrong

01:31:00

No, of course, I'm saying if if it were possible to find a contradiction of the Bible were wrong about something

01:31:06

Well, I mean I do I do use that argument with Muslims. Yeah, because there's contradictions in the

01:31:11

Quran and so yeah, but they won't To Romans 1 and what what

01:31:16

Andrew was saying It's exact. It's primarily exactly what I'm going to say just potentially in a different way.

01:31:22

So you're saying you're going to I I don't believe those two passages contradict

01:31:31

I See that and I know I know why you don't think they contradict but you've suggested that our understanding of homosexuality

01:31:39

Requires that those passages contradict and that is not true. That's not true so Romans 1 homosexuality is is a consequence of something and in 1st

01:31:53

Corinthians 6 Homosexuality is the genesis of something if we can just say it that way and Jenna in 1st

01:31:59

Corinthians 6 you started out as this But something happened. What was that something coming to know

01:32:05

Christ truly being born again washing the blood and Then you were changed.

01:32:13

Okay, that's Genesis 6 So is it talking about homosexuality? Yes, it is. It's talking about a prior state

01:32:20

Right in the Romans 1 passage It's talking about somebody who the prior state as far as we know actually wasn't homosexuality in some cases

01:32:30

Not as it's presented in the in Romans chapter 1 the prior state was a scorner a mocker a scoffer

01:32:37

Somebody who high -handedly rejected the truth of the scriptures God says that he gave that person over their

01:32:45

Genesis right was a Refusal to accept God gave them over to the consequences of their choices the consequences of some of their choices led to Homosexuality so right the

01:32:58

Bible is not saying in one passage that you know, you used to be a homosexual and You can be saved

01:33:05

But the other passage says you can't be saved if you're homosexual that you Completely have to mix the verses around to get it to say that so in 1st

01:33:14

Corinthians 6 It is talking about as the as the scriptures consistently do it from Leviticus to Romans and everywhere in between The the

01:33:21

Bible consistently describes homosexuality in the exact same way, okay And I Yeah, you can be born again from that sin, but if you are born again just like any other sin

01:33:35

Hey, literally list any other sin you want to list There's going to be repentance. There's gonna be sanctification

01:33:40

There's gonna be change and the Romans one passage is simply saying and this is something I was prepared to talk about if it came up in conversation a

01:33:48

Lot of people who like to argue about the you know, well, I'm just attracted to people this is how God made me so on and so forth one of the things that people misunderstand is that People can learn to be attracted to things first of all people can be attracted to that which is sinful and I'll be the first person to step out there and say

01:34:07

I'm Attracted to lots of things that are simple and James chapter 1 tells me why I am Okay, second of all people learn to be attracted to things because of introduction they get introduced to something and they're told that this is fine and good and They just believe it and there's again the cannibals are a perfect example of that child who eats human beings is going to believe that That's okay

01:34:30

People can also learn to be attracted to things because of repetition Having been enslaved to pornography for a long time when

01:34:38

I was a teenager I understand the that that idea of that repetition

01:34:45

Substantiating habituating something and then finally people can learn to be attracted because of desensitization Which is also something a lot in pornography

01:34:53

So that's all that Romans what chapter 1 is talking about Romans chapter 1 is give us an example that sometimes not all the time

01:34:58

But sometimes homosexuality is a process of that desensitization Because you've rejected God And because God has removed his convicting hand on you and you're just you know

01:35:10

Growing in your sins that the sins are multiplying and changing and homosexuality is the end result of one of those so holding our position

01:35:17

Does in no way shape or form make first Corinthians 6 and Romans chapter 1 contradict in this life?

01:35:23

Okay, both are consistent with the scriptures Okay, that was a very good explanation and you are the only one who

01:35:30

I've grilled and pressed on that To actually bring that up because a lot of times what happens is you know

01:35:38

Andrew was talking about the people who Stand out on the street corners with the 9 and 10 verse didn't get screamed at you know,

01:35:47

Church of Wells. We did that When we were with them and I didn't even know verse 11 existed at that point

01:35:57

Yeah, and that's why I never like anyone that holds those signs, you know Unless they have verse 11 because they're abusing the text of Scripture when they do that Because that's not the purpose of that passage

01:36:10

Okay, that's not really about homosexuality. No, it's not right about the consequences of rejecting

01:36:15

God just like 6 isn't about homosexuality. It's about the consequences of accepting

01:36:20

God. Yes It's not the fact that when we when we're washing the blood of Christ We don't do the things we did in our past life.

01:36:28

We don't we don't That's not the pattern of our life anymore That's the whole thing is and then and the fact that it says don't be deceived and the word deceived is a command there

01:36:38

It's an imperative in the Greek, right? He's commanding us do not be deceived which means guess what?

01:36:44

We can be deceived Right, and just so folks see what you agree to what you were agreeing to anything.

01:36:50

I'll put this back up I put this coming up. Well Aaron was speaking but Chris Huff said this is a great and I was in all caps great explanation at two passages

01:37:00

So that's when when when Anthony said, oh, I agree with that that comment That was what he was saying.

01:37:07

He agree. He was agreeing with just so we have it clear I'm gonna disagree with a friend of yours though who said

01:37:15

Jamie says people Or oh, I thought I read this wrong It said people cannot learn to be attracted to things but he said people can learn to be attracted to things

01:37:22

It's the glasses folks. He's still having a hard time Yeah, I well because if I look at the wrong way it's blurry so when it's down at the lower part it's still blurry so Sorry about that.

01:37:32

Jamie. I read it wrong. You're good Well, I don't think anyone in this universe would agree with that wholeheartedly that you don't learn to be attracted to things

01:37:43

Now this is what I wanted to Yes, James White and Michael Brown debated to homosexual pastors

01:37:52

They did an awful job and it was a decimation Yeah, they you can watch it it's on both

01:37:59

Michael Brown and we got we got about 20 20 minutes left so Yeah, okay.

01:38:05

This is what I want to address What would you say is the

01:38:13

What would you say is the solution for someone who is same -sex attracted?

01:38:19

And wanting to serve God because I I do not see

01:38:24

I think we did ourselves an injustice Starting with the lust agreement, but we very clearly disagree on that Now No, the two pro -homosexual pastors did an awful job in defending

01:38:40

LGBTQ affirming Christianity now The the argument

01:38:45

I've heard is yeah, you'll have temptations You'll have struggles, but God will get you in the end you know

01:38:51

James White even told Justin Lee who was the founder of our of the gay

01:38:57

Christian Network now, it's evolved past that but Justin asked

01:39:02

James a very sincere question You know who's going to take care of me in my old age if I'm not attracted to a woman

01:39:11

And you know, I'm just gonna be by myself and James is like I just hope and pray you find yourself in a situation where You know, you'll be in a church and maybe that time will bring you closer to God.

01:39:26

Okay, so Can I address that or? And let me just say one thing the

01:39:31

God I serve does not Leave someone in a defeated state.

01:39:37

He doesn't say well You'll just have temptations to something that is very in their innate being that I believe goes before any sin that we've talked about Okay, being same -sex attractive comes before any sin we've discussed today

01:39:52

All right. So so you said the person who was who was saying that you know, what's gonna happen if they're if they're

01:40:02

They get older and they're alone, right It was that part

01:40:09

Do you know a passage scripture says God must Have us get married No, so so a person who's gifted to be single or someone like Paul was was he left alone?

01:40:24

No, so he had others with him Yes, even though he wasn't in a homosexual or sick or a heterosexual relationship

01:40:32

You misunderstood what I said, well, no, I understand what you said I'm just pointing out the I'm pointing out the fallacy of it.

01:40:38

So the point being is these emotional arguments don't Negate the truths of Scripture.

01:40:46

And so when you're saying when you're saying that the God you serve wouldn't leave people defeated Right. Well the

01:40:53

God of the Bible Seems to leave people defeated those that practice sin Yes So so maybe maybe you're that you're bidding you're not serving the

01:41:03

God of the Bible because he does leave people defeated all the time actually more Than he does those that he brings to new life okay, so you know the before I forget the thought and Aaron I see a reason but but the the thing is that What what you keep appealing to is is emotions and and personal experience and and we're appealing to what the scripture says so the answer to the question is

01:41:31

You know, what what do you do? Well, how does a person who who who is desiring sin serve in the church they don't

01:41:39

Know right and and I'm not saying what sin if you're if your desire is for sin

01:41:48

Then you're not a Christian If your desire is for God, but you continue in sin

01:41:55

Then it it doesn't matter which sin that is You are going to be like every other

01:42:00

Christian now, there may be limitations of what you could do in church You can't be

01:42:06

You can't be a drunkard and the pastor that Scripture says that can't you shouldn't be doing that So there are limitations.

01:42:15

Can you can someone drink now? we could debate whether drinking today's the same as first century because different purposes, but You know, okay, can you can you can you drink?

01:42:27

Okay, let's fine you can drink you can't get drunk Yeah, but it's you're getting drunk and it happens because you you went somewhere you got drunk and you're it's

01:42:39

Happening a bunch, but you're still a Christian Right, you're not desiring that you're not going like I've got to get drunk.

01:42:46

It's happening, but you hate the sin. That's the point But I think you ran away with the example

01:42:53

I gave My question is how would you Aaron and Andrew?

01:43:00

Reach somebody who honestly wants to serve God struggling with same -sex attraction and How would you go about doing that because the answer

01:43:11

I have always gotten is well, you'll always have this sin Um, you'll always have these struggles it'll just be your temptation.

01:43:20

You'll just have to live with it. Yeah I'm not wild thing that Meanwhile Okay. Yeah, this is what

01:43:27

I've heard. Yeah, and so I'm gonna be really clear. I'm saying you repent You you change your thinking you don't get and I don't care if you're having heterosexual fantasies if someone is if someone's a

01:43:41

Christian and He's he's watching pornography every night

01:43:49

I'm not gonna have him serve in church. No, I would agree. Okay, I'd like to answer your question if I may

01:43:57

Anthony I think it's a valuable question and I will say that it's a question that I've answered for many people

01:44:02

Many times throughout my life and ministry And the answer is going to be the same

01:44:10

Generally for them As it is for anybody else with any other temptation to any other sin, which is all of us

01:44:20

And it's not gonna be a one -time conversation. There's nothing that I'm gonna say to you right now that presumably would just change your mind

01:44:26

But it would it requires a foundational understanding of who we are What temptation is a lot of people say that temptation is not a sin and I would agree with that to a certain extent

01:44:37

But temptation is the direct result of sin Okay Temptation God says that he cannot be tempted with evil.

01:44:47

We say oh that's a contradiction because we know Jesus was tempted by Satan the the concept there is that External what we call external temptation someone saying hey buy these drugs

01:44:59

Nobody's ever going to sin if that's all that's happening Nobody's ever gonna do something that they don't want to do the temptation bring referred to in James is internal temptation that comes from me

01:45:09

God doesn't have internal temptation. He's perfect. We do because we're sinners All right The only reason I have temptation in the first place is that I'm a sinner and I'll just tell you when

01:45:17

I was five years Old I said to my mom. I want to wear a dress I want to dress like a girl if I had been five years old today

01:45:25

I would have been labeled as gender dysphoric and so on and so forth I I have had lots of temptation

01:45:32

I'm married and my wife and I are gonna be coming up on our 18th anniversary here soon I have

01:45:38

I have Been tempted to look at and to fantasize about women who are not my wife

01:45:46

Okay, so I am being open honest with you about these struggles Those are all sins because of my sentence or because the temptation so just because a lot of people say well

01:45:55

God made I'm attracted To men this is how God made me. No, he didn't Okay, he didn't he's not the author of sin, right?

01:46:02

So right So then the next question ends up being well, how do I how do

01:46:08

I do this? Well again, if I'm 10 I used to also used to be a huge kleptomaniac when I was in in high school If it wasn't nailed down and it didn't belong to me.

01:46:15

I took it. I mean right everything I Used to use every swear word in the book

01:46:23

Multiple times every single day Okay I'm being transparent with you because the exact same thing that by God's grace helped me to overcome those sins is the exact same thing

01:46:31

That can help somebody who's struggling With the temptation to homosexuality overcome their sins and really the answer to your question in the most simplistic form comes from Jesus himself

01:46:42

Jesus perfect God man never attempted to sin his entire life in the

01:46:48

Garden of Gethsemane Prayed and he said, you know, not my will but your will be done

01:46:55

Now there are so many deep theological implications in that passage We can't get into but Jesus illustrated for us, even though his will being, you know

01:47:05

Part of the tri the Trinity right the triune God second member of the Trinity Being in complete agreement with the

01:47:11

Father and the Holy Spirit in that moment He exhibited for us perfectly what it is to say

01:47:16

God not my will not my desires Not my lust not my not not he thought that he would send and had lost but yours be done and then we submit

01:47:25

To his truth So as a married man, it is very easy for me to Look at a beautiful woman woman and to lust after and Jesus tells us that lusting after her

01:47:39

Desiring her thinking about her inappropriately not to get hung up on the word lust Is just as much of a sin as if I actually physically committed adultery with her

01:47:47

So when I do that, that is a sin. Okay, so well, I'm God created me to be a you know to be attracted to women.

01:47:56

What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to deny myself Take up my cross and follow after him now a lot of the things that you've quoted other people saying

01:48:05

It's interesting that you haven't quoted the scripture in this in this regard you quoted scriptures before but in this regard you haven't really

01:48:10

James White and you quoted other people who've talked to you Those people I don't really care what they had to say if what they had to say didn't come from the scriptures

01:48:18

Okay, and to say that you know that you'll come to a place where you'll never have that temptation again would be a lie

01:48:25

Yes, it is true by God's grace will never be sinless this side of eternity, but we should be sinning less and less

01:48:31

We should be transformed from one degree of glory to another we should be you know, growing in our sanctification.

01:48:36

We should be maturing Yes, that's obviously true But I will not be surprised if when

01:48:42

I'm one foot in the grave and like Andrew is Where I might still be tempted to look at a woman a way that I shouldn't but how do

01:48:50

I respond to that? What do I know when that happens? The repentance the the saying not my will your will be done the taking up my cross and denying myself and following him

01:49:01

Those are the the steps and the practical steps obviously get a lot more specific. Okay, can

01:49:06

I just interject something because Well, can I ask a question? Have you have you another okay.

01:49:14

Yeah another Have you ever been attracted to a member of the same sex? No No That is a complicated thing for me to answer, but by all means continue

01:49:28

What makes being attracted to the same sex inherently lust inherently wrong and what makes being?

01:49:35

In a way that we're not using it. Yeah, we I said that Any sexual desire outside of marriage whether it's heterosexual or I mean, so so Homosexual attraction is a sin.

01:49:51

Yeah, let me take a step back That is sin and what makes heterosexual attraction not a sin.

01:49:57

Okay, so Dame heterosexual attraction within marriage heterosexual attraction outside of marriage

01:50:06

Attraction as defined by You know Not to looking on it not to look on a woman

01:50:14

Yeah, let me lay back up because they're called and I'm looking for the comment because one of your friends

01:50:23

Okay here yeah, Jamie said this and because I want to dress this lust is wrong when you're married

01:50:29

You can't find a passage that says it's okay when you're not referred when it's not referred to marriage

01:50:36

But you can in 1st Corinthians chapter 7 He says to verse 8 to the unmarried and to the widows

01:50:46

I say it is good for them to remain single as I am But if they cannot exercise self -control they should marry for it is better to marry than burn with passion

01:50:55

That's clearly speaking to an unmarried person now the big problem people have is they take

01:51:02

What the the are our day and age and try to fit it into the Bible?

01:51:09

People didn't get choose who they married That was chosen for them

01:51:15

People found out who they were getting married to often at the altar Okay, okay, so the idea of well,

01:51:23

I'm attracted to this person Sexually, and therefore I want to date her. That's not the biblical framework

01:51:31

Okay, so when I'm saying that lust is wrong It's all wrong all of it

01:51:39

Okay, he sexual desire Before marriage outside of marriage is sin whether it's heterosexual

01:51:47

Homosexual it's because that's it you're you talk of attraction as if it's something that the no you are not to be attracted to anyone but your wife

01:51:58

Now That's something that their way of marriage is different than ours.

01:52:04

You can't shove our 21st century dating recreational dating into the

01:52:09

Bible Well, you use that term all these years later. I I liked it back then

01:52:16

It's still true Yeah, I did slightly misunderstand something that you said earlier and I want to attempt this again you asked about you know attraction

01:52:27

You know to females Let's let's go ahead and I think I want to use it the way you've been using it

01:52:33

Right because you've been saying the last things like, you know, like I look at a woman I look at a sunset I look at flowers

01:52:38

I look at a woman and I just make the observation that that is a beautiful thing I want you to know that I can do that with men as well

01:52:45

You can ask my wife there are times when I look at Jason Mamoa in Aquaman and I'll say that is a good -looking man

01:52:51

You can disagree with me if you want to that's fine or whoever else I can say that is a good -looking man That is a good -looking woman.

01:52:57

Okay, am I attracted to them? Sure. You could use it in that way if you want to Okay, I think that that would be an inappropriate use.

01:53:07

I think that that it's a dilution of the word Because I have no desire because again remember even

01:53:13

Merriam -Webster defines attraction in having the idea of Pulling on someone's desires.

01:53:20

I have no does I mean I might want to look like Jason Mamoa in the body without all the ink and whatever

01:53:25

But I have no desire for Jason Mamoa in any kind of a way Other than the fact just to observe that you know, he was a good -looking guy and I'm sorry

01:53:33

I keep mentioning him now. You guys are like really wondering rightfully so yeah, but but here's the here's what

01:53:39

I wanted to say God created human beings to require food for our sustenance right

01:53:49

It is completely appropriate for me to desire food for my sustenance However, if I gave up food and started eating nothing but rocks

01:53:58

Eventually, I'm going to die Right, so there's nothing wrong with me eating food as long as I do it in the way that glorifies

01:54:04

God first Corinthians 731 so in the same way There are appropriate

01:54:10

Christ honoring ways for me to be attracted to A woman specifically my wife but to find women to be beautiful to be able to say women and men are beautiful There is a

01:54:20

Christ honoring way to do that. That has nothing to do with sexuality That has nothing to do with any type of romantic desires and I think that this touches on another big misconception that I talk with individuals a lot about is that It's this idea of a huge misconception of what the

01:54:37

Bible talks about when it's referring to love It's a misunderstanding of biblical love in the Bible. Love is not attraction

01:54:44

Love is not sexuality. However in our world today That's all that love is you a love is literally defined by who

01:54:52

I want to have sex with Okay, that's how the world handles. Can you guys still hear me? Yeah Okay, my one air pod died since we only have five minutes left

01:55:02

I I do need to address this you know my Self, he's my boyfriend.

01:55:10

We've been dating for about six months now long distance because of kovat and because neither of us travel and This is what

01:55:16

I don't believe people understand. I Do not want him just for his body.

01:55:22

It's not based on who I want to have sex with He is a very dear soul who I want to treasure

01:55:28

I want to spend my life with I want to do all the things that the four different types of love

01:55:35

In the scriptures have to say Only three only three in the

01:55:45

Bible three Words, okay

01:55:54

And I would just say here that there are there are men who I love desperately like that too who I want to have

01:56:00

My life and in every form of my life, but that's not homosexuality. That's biblical love.

01:56:05

I'm supposed to love strangers I'm supposed to love enemies. I'm supposed to love everybody So that's not homosexuality.

01:56:13

Here's here's the thing and and first off. I do want to Since I know he your buddy

01:56:21

Jamie's has been commenting and he made a comment here And he said this he said

01:56:27

Lol, he's bullying. He he's a bully with a platform. He's been bullying

01:56:32

Anthony He started at the beginning being dishonest with me. I had him numbered early on So he claims that I he had me numbered early on Because I talked about fallacies and he told me to get an education.

01:56:46

I'm trying to see if I could start that one Yeah, here it is. He says But my advice to him would be to go get an education in something before you make yourself look foolish online talking about it example

01:57:00

Logical fallacies now the irony irony Jamie Go back in the chat and look when

01:57:06

I talked about a straw man fallacy I just find it and you defined it the same way I did

01:57:12

So you understand the definition of it when you abused it? Just saying the the it being a bully would be to not allow

01:57:19

Anthony to have his his chance to speak at all We've been clarifying in definitions and and maybe we need to have a further conversation

01:57:28

Because it you know two hours goes quick Especially when we're trying to make sure we understand the terms a bully though.

01:57:35

Jamie Does what you've been doing in the chat? Will you just talk over people and slam people and tell everyone they have to believe what you believe?

01:57:42

Okay, i'm trying to understand see that's what tolerance is Jamie is i'm listening to anthony engaging with him.

01:57:51

I could disagree with him, but tolerance doesn't mean you must agree with me Anthony's being tolerant of me and aaron.

01:57:59

We disagree with him. He's being tolerant. He's listening disagrees, but Not sitting there and saying that we're we have to agree with him.

01:58:07

That's what tolerance is Okay, and i'll encourage you jamie to maybe learn what tolerance really means

01:58:15

And stop calling people a bully just because you can't argue yourself out of a wet paper bag

01:58:20

If you'd like to come in Any thursday night we're here we can answer any questions if you want to come in if you think you're up to to it

01:58:28

Fine, you want to do a debate we could do that, too But the reality is is that you know, you're you're the one looking foolish when you make arguments that you can't defend

01:58:38

We were we kind of showed those um If I could just jump in here because uh, seth says stick up for him um

01:58:47

I I I do not need to uh defend anyone the reason I did this discussion

01:58:54

Is because I wanted the onlookers for the searching soul who thinks that they struggle with same -sex attraction

01:59:01

You know, jamie can get heated. He has an amazing story Um, we've known each other for years and i've discipled him in many different ways and uh,

01:59:10

I uh, I think that um Yeah, people can get triggered different ways and we'll have a long discussion personally after this is over But I just hope everybody saw the fact that um

01:59:24

It was emotions versus scriptures on one side And then We never really stuck to one example, and I didn't really even get to use the notes and that's not important but I just I want to say, um

01:59:39

You're not broken because you are accused of having lusts or um same -sex attraction

01:59:47

And I hope that um, I gave an answer for the faith Uh that um is within me with gentleness and respect and I will continue to sanctify christ as lord and um be able to uh

02:00:03

Disciple the people i'm discipling That's well i'm gonna end it off. Yeah I mean, I think you made a good point but and that should be a concern for you is that you know, we gave you scripture and and you gave us feelings like your the experiences and and How you grew up and like that none of that matters

02:00:20

It matters what scripture says And and the thing anthony what when we we take the scriptures

02:00:27

I don't care what group is doing it right Any group when you are when you're trying to read something into the scripture to justify

02:00:36

Either a lifestyle or you know, even you take a theological position People want to take the scriptures i'm going to get myself in trouble.

02:00:44

They want to justify baptizing babies Uh, can we steer away from that one because I am actually a pato baptist, okay

02:00:52

Well, it's still I I the way you're gonna do that is to interpret the bible through a view of covenants

02:00:58

Right. Yes. Um, and so i'm gonna say that that's not being fair with the just the the hermeneutic of letting scripture speak right we we read it into scripture because it

02:01:10

There's not a single verse that anyone can turn to and say that teaches baptizing babies um, but someone's theological system

02:01:21

Is how they interpret the scripture so they take a theological system And they take the scripture and the theological system gets read into the scripture when that happens

02:01:30

What ends up being is that the scripture is not the authority? Right, he's like you were saying with the the three legs you have uh in anglicanism

02:01:40

Right if it you you could look at the same with You know catholicism when they when they when the catholic church says that you need the church to interpret scripture

02:01:49

What that does is it puts down scripture and raises up church, right? Because now the church is the ultimate authority not the scripture

02:01:58

I heard a lot from you and and you may disagree with it. But what I heard a lot was was

02:02:05

Your your experience your um What you went through what your feelings were

02:02:12

And and then you're looking at the scriptures and trying to to justify them but what I what

02:02:17

I didn't hear is you saying that As aaron said and you know as I said, although aaron went into more detail

02:02:24

That our feelings are wrong and instead of trusting our feelings i'm trying to say how do we how do we reconcile our feelings with our

02:02:33

With what we're seeing in scripture And I mean the way like I mean just to look at my notes From what you said earlier when we were talking about how the holy spirit testifies and the authority and you were talking about the fruit and the feelings and and others and things like that, it's

02:02:45

That's that doesn't that's not how we interpret scripture, right? The way we interpret scripture is we we let god say what god says

02:02:54

And we bow to that whether we like it or not Right. I mean there's things

02:02:59

I wish the scriptures didn't say There's things I wish I could I could do but I I can it's sin, right?

02:03:08

I do I do that? Of course like aaron said But it doesn't mean you know, but I hate when

02:03:14

I do it because I know it's sinful This is what christ died on the cross for right It's all of these sinful behaviors we do

02:03:23

That we desire to do that we think about doing these things this is what christ died on the cross for And and I you know

02:03:35

I think your friends may not know my heart. I think you probably do because we've known each other um, but My concern is and and i'm not

02:03:44

You know, I I know a little bit with your family. I'm not going to treat you clearly the way your family treated you nope

02:03:52

He just dropped out. I don't know if his internet went out again or not I know you assume that it was an accident.

02:04:00

Yeah. Yeah, I I will i'll continue what i'm saying um and and hope that he comes back in or at least listens, uh, and and I because I I didn't want to say something about his family that was beyond what he would want shared so I don't want to say but What I'm saying is

02:04:19

I i'm not up there. He is. Let me Yeah, put him back in he's coming in so he's internet problems the one thing we pray every time that the

02:04:32

Technology would actually work Are you there Let's see, it's frozen.

02:04:40

I know he kept switching between you guys I see a frozen picture of you holding up two fingers

02:04:51

Oh, maybe turn your camera off let's see if we could at least hear you Here's some crackling. Yeah, like we had earlier

02:05:02

Okay, so now we can see you so you think it's the other Oh, maybe it was your maybe that's what it was.

02:05:09

Nope. That doesn't work things back Yeah, maybe maybe turn the camera off and um

02:05:17

So so anthony, let me just say I mean, I i'm I wouldn't i'm not gonna treat you the way uh

02:05:23

You know some of your family did You have a welcome invitation, you know, you want to get together You know, we'll get together for dinner.

02:05:30

I'll be happy to buy you dinner Uh so we can get together and talk um He dropped out but i'll continue and we'll hope that that he gets to hear the the concern that that He probably switched internets.

02:05:42

Here. He is again. Let's see Is that better? Are you there anthony?

02:05:52

Appreciate everyone sticking with us through the technical difficulties. I appreciate it. I'll just i'll continue on and then

02:05:57

I'll i'll ask anthony to listen to this afterwards and and uh, you know, if he has comments We'll read them on next next show or something

02:06:04

But my concern anthony for you is this is that as I said earlier Me trying to be a big meanie or anything like that.

02:06:12

It's it's me submitting Yeah, I hear you you're frozen on the screen, but I hear you um the issue is is that scripture would be really clear that if we try to justify sinful behavior and to Identify ourselves by our sinful behavior.

02:06:29

We can't be a christian It's not me being it that's what what god would say in the passages that that we looked at and so I I know that people want to feel that they're a christian or They're in a good state with god

02:06:49

And continuing in in sinful behavior. Um Whether whether I mean you have

02:06:55

Devout muslims, they they feel sincere a devout muslim feels sincere about If they know that Yeah, we

02:07:04

I hear you Okay, can you hear us? Okay? I don't know if he can hear us

02:07:12

Okay, so I mean a devout muslim could could have a desire to be with god

02:07:18

But he's not going to have it because he didn't come to christ God's way

02:07:24

And and and that's the concern I have for you anthony is I I don't see I don't know your heart, but I don't see from what you've shared with us tonight

02:07:33

How according to scripture you could be a christian and so my challenge to you Is to consider that to consider that maybe the issue that you you need to do is get right with god to to repent of of the the sinful thinking that homosexuality is okay and that that That these that there there could be a you could have an intimate physical sexual

02:07:58

Marriage -like relationship with seth or anyone else Um, may I okay

02:08:03

Let me let me let anthony speak for it.

02:08:09

I got like every fourth word that you said yeah, that's I i'll encourage you to to listen to What I said is you kept dropping out and and then maybe we can

02:08:20

Talk again But but aaron go ahead um yeah, and it may be uncomfortable to try to go back and and re -watch this but I would encourage you to do so to try to hear us to see our faces and to to recognize that This really is being spoken out of love.

02:08:38

I'm going to Um, i'm going to only partially disagree with andrew Um, and i'll just be really transparent in what i'm saying here

02:08:48

There are a lot of believers Right right now potentially people who are watching this show um, who are

02:08:59

Who are enslaved to a sin and they don't even know it Okay Um, you know, the process of sanctification is a growing one

02:09:08

There are people out there who you know, I meet with people all the time in my counseling And they are doing things in their life that they think are right and good, but they're wrong

02:09:17

Are they believers oftentimes? Yes, they are but they're immature The best they can understand is the milk of the word.

02:09:24

They haven't grown. They haven't matured They have a lot of growing to do And the key is that when i'm able to show them from the scriptures

02:09:31

What god says about you know, like you said to the adulterous woman go and sin No more when they're able to see their sin for what it is

02:09:38

Then that desire of repentance is there I don't know if you're born again or not anthony I I would agree with andrew in that if you are high -handedly refusing to um

02:09:52

To submit to god and a clearly identified biblical reality

02:09:57

You are unrepentant And you continue to be unrepentant then even jesus himself says that that type of a person needs to be treated as if they're an unbeliever

02:10:05

You know, they're they're refusing to repent when god's people are coming into their lives and saying this is a sin, right?

02:10:11

However, there are other people who have been lied to They have been convinced that what they're doing is not wrong.

02:10:17

They're living in a delusion Though they potentially do actually have a saving relationship with jesus christ.

02:10:23

Is it possible that you are in that situation? It is possible and I you know, jamie's been making a big deal and jamie.

02:10:28

I respect your passion I respect your love for anthony. Um I don't know anthony.

02:10:34

I I don't know his heart. I can say that there's one of two possibilities And I think andrew is right, you know if and you know, if if anthony is, you know

02:10:42

Just completely unrepentant doesn't really care what god's word has to say and wants to justify his lifestyle Then well, yeah, that's the mark of an unbeliever

02:10:49

But it's also possible that you just are ignorant of the biblical reality on this that you've been lied to By people, uh that you have a misunderstanding and that by god's grace

02:10:59

And the working of the holy spirit who convicts us of sin righteousness and judgment that you will come to see that That homosexuality is a sin something for which you can be forgiven something from which you can repent something from which you can grow uh, so so jamie, you know, you you've been making a lot of statements in the in the

02:11:17

In the comments and I do want to address them because I think it's valuable. I I respect you as an individual. Um Um, it is fair to say that it's possible that a person who is a practicing homosexuality

02:11:30

Home an unrepentant homosexual is unsaved because a refusal to repent is a mark of unbelief

02:11:36

It's also possible that that practicing homosexual or thief or liar or glutton or fill in the blank

02:11:44

Also hasn't learned yet what the scriptures really have to say on the subject and when they do The holy spirit convicts them.

02:11:50

They will repent and start that process of change Okay yeah, my internet, uh, just Um, like totally shut me out for the last 10 minutes, but I think

02:12:02

I got um overall what you were saying Go back and watch it I will you'll heal my heart for sure.

02:12:10

Yeah um, and I I appreciate your heart and I was not hoping to uh, change, um your

02:12:18

Uh, either of your minds at all. Um, I just hope that for the um searching

02:12:23

Um person out there who went through what I did. I hope they were able to hear my heart and uh, when

02:12:30

I say love it is, um pouring myself out to people and I just we very obviously have a different view of God's ordained roles for men and women and people in between but um,

02:12:45

I will go back and watch it and thank you guys for this platform and uh, Jamie and seth

02:12:50

I will have a conversation with you both. I'm sorry that at some points that was triggering Yeah, well,

02:12:58

I mean look Jamie Maybe more so than seth has been making a lot of nasty comments as he says i'm being nasty.

02:13:06

I'll let the audience see uh, whether I mean we we disagreed but if you if if jamie thinks that disagreement is being nasty

02:13:15

Well, jamie, you're being nasty then All right. I didn't call you names Uh as you have

02:13:22

I I don't remember calling you an idiot or some of the other names you you referred to me um a liar uh things like that uh uneducated

02:13:33

Nasty, these are the terms you used if this is your definition of love jamie Yeah, I want nothing to do with that I mean, you're you're all talking about love and feelings.

02:13:43

Well, guess what? You're not practicing what you claim That's all i'm going to say with that because But the bible's really clear on these matters and the question is just going to be look

02:13:54

None of none of jamie seth anthony. You guys are not going to come to andrew or aaron as we're not going to be your judge

02:14:03

Okay Christ is the judge But christ makes it clear how he's going to judge

02:14:09

The issue is is if you're going to make Something that god says is sin and make excuse for it

02:14:16

It's gonna get judged That's that's not me saying it if you think i'm nasty Then you don't like what god says if you want to say,

02:14:24

I don't know how to interpret the bible Well, you know jamie. I'll just say stop being a keyboard warrior and man up and come on here

02:14:32

Don't don't say oh it's you know I forget how you said you you you why you wouldn't do it and I see if I if I actually

02:14:37

Kept that one because I thought that was interesting um Let's see Did I save it?

02:14:46

No, I I saved where he called me an idiot and oh, yeah, he said here Uh, I would

02:14:51

I would never call into this joke of a show No, you you wouldn't call in jamie

02:14:57

I think because you can't defend your beliefs if if you had a conviction that you could defend

02:15:03

You'd be happy to come on. I go on all kinds of shows that that Because I I believe

02:15:08

I have the truth and I can support it in scripture and if i'm corrected i'm corrected That that's what it would you would do if you really if you were really so convinced so, uh

02:15:20

But I the thing that I have for for anthony is anthony You know, my greatest concern is as would be

02:15:25

I don't know your heart. I don't know if you're saved or not But I do know that someone who continues To to practice a any sin claiming to be a christian, uh

02:15:37

They're probably not in christ, I mean I I can only look at the external fruit, right? I can't see anything more and that's that's my reason to plead with you that you'd come to repent um, and at least at least consider that now if you want to if you want to continue

02:15:51

You you know how to get in touch with me. We can get together and have long talks you and I that'd be that'd be fine i'm, not you know, i'm not against having the discussions because the the reality is that You didn't come to the these conclusions lightly and quickly and you're you're

02:16:10

You know, once you're in a an echo chamber you end up believing everything in the echo chamber We there's a whole bunch of questions.

02:16:16

We never got to I got a whole bunch of things that questions that were asked we didn't get to I know we're we're going a bit long, but I you know, you're welcome to come back and we can further the discussion

02:16:27

Uh, or if you want to discuss it privately, you know, we can get together i'll buy you dinner We could talk and we could talk um so but I do appreciate you coming in because I think

02:16:37

I think it's helpful for uh, some of the for for people on both sides,

02:16:42

I mean, I obviously, you know, I I don't think seth and and um And and oh,

02:16:48

I just lost his name Uh, jamie jamie. I was gonna say justin, but I knew that wasn't right and and jamie are are really doing this

02:16:56

But you know your appeals to people to hear what you're saying Uh, and that's the thing I want there's a reason

02:17:01

I let you give your your views um It was hard because we were we had to get definitions down um but That's the thing is, you know you know

02:17:15

Want some of the folks that are in either side of an echo chamber to understand both sides? That's one of the things we do here at this on this show is let people view explain their views interact with them

02:17:26

And and try not to misrepresent what people believe I and I think both aaron and I tried to do that with you

02:17:32

That's why we kept asking clarifying questions um Because there was a lot of definitional things that we needed to resolve

02:17:40

Before we could get on to the talk and that made it harder um so Let me just see

02:17:49

So jamie is saying I failed miserably, okay Um Yeah, I will address that later

02:17:57

It's okay. It's okay. We hear what others are saying and talk to people who are honest and listening

02:18:03

That's the difference but but jamie if honest and listening means they must that they agree with you

02:18:09

Then you're not being honest and listening Um, and and I want because I want to encourage him jamie as well

02:18:16

Maybe he's in an echo chamber and he needs to get out of that um It'd be hard for anyone to accuse me of being in an echo chamber when

02:18:24

I mean I you Spent months listening to four different transgender podcasts to learn the the views that they have

02:18:33

That's not being in an echo chamber. So You know, I I I understand the arguments and and want to hear people out.

02:18:42

So Uh, I hope that I hope folks that you you at least learned a lot from this um

02:18:48

And I think that what we we Need to do in conversation, especially conversations like this.

02:18:56

I hope there's one thing that both sides would learn That we must understand the the definitions of terms that we use when we speak to people who disagree with us

02:19:09

I I the one thing i'd like folks to walk away with is notice how often throughout the show both aaron and I Would ask anthony

02:19:17

Okay, hold it clarifying question. What do you mean by that? What how and and trying to make sure we're all understanding each other's terms even when we disagree on a term like lust

02:19:25

What are we doing? You were saying? Okay. We know how you're interpreting it. This is how we're making the distinction why because When we don't do that, we talk past each other and people start to think they understand what someone thinks

02:19:39

Because they're using their own definition For what someone's saying and then they go see you're you're you're wrong here

02:19:46

You're being hypocritical there. You got a contradiction there when really what it is is we have a different definition Right, okay

02:19:52

And and that's the thing. I hope that people walk away with is if we're going to have honest conversations honest dialogue

02:19:59

One thing we need to be able to do is actually hear one another out all right

02:20:05

So, uh next week, uh, I will not be here. We we never even got to the advertisers, I guess

02:20:12

My pillow my pillow. Yeah Get yourself in my pillow promo code. There you go uh, but The uh, but next week

02:20:21

I will not be here. I will be traveling. It should be the last Thursday, I believe that I will be missing until Other than thanksgiving till the end of the year.

02:20:32

We weren't going to do one on thanksgiving Anyway, I know i've been missing a lot. I know that some people have have asked when am

02:20:38

I coming back? um I will be starting up the rap report podcast. Hopefully next week.

02:20:44

I got two interviews next week that i'll be doing Uh, so I should be doing something this weekend that i'll record and put out

02:20:50

Uh introducing what we're going to do as we restart the rap report. So go check that out follow that podcast and Next week drew will probably be running things again.

02:21:01

Maybe aaron will be back The week after that now, maybe you heard last week At the end of the show as they were talking about the case for cessationism

02:21:11

An atheist came in. I believe if I remember correctly his name was evan Asking some really really good questions and as justin peters had said

02:21:21

He was asking he seemed to understand theology better than most christians well

02:21:27

He contacted me and we're going to give him To have him come into the show if he wants if no one has questions like tonight

02:21:33

We'll do a full two hours and I told him he can come in We'll try to answer as many of the questions as he has so that's going to be in two weeks um, and so Uh, anthony just just left but he did say

02:21:46

I I have to tap out but loved the conversation So enjoyed the time with you anthony is good to get together with you again

02:21:52

And so folks hope that you you enjoyed and hope you learned something and hope you come back next week