Revival Q&A

Revival in Asbury and the Marks of a True Work of God

Well, welcome back to our spring conference and we are finishing up the conference today by doing a Podcast style Q &A we have two of our speakers from the concert or from the concert from the conference.

We have two of our speakers from the conference brother pastor Andy Montoro. Pastor Mike Collier from here at Sovereign Grace. Unfortunately, Aaron Bell has to attend a wedding. He's participating in a wedding this afternoon.

So he wasn't able to stay with us. So I'll be participating as the third man in the Q &A as well as the Q &A moderator and host and As you all know, we do have a podcast here at Sovereign Grace Family Church.

We put out a podcast every week called conversations with a Calvinist. So as I always begin the show I say Thank you for listening to conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist.

I am contractually obligated to say that every time but so today we're going to do this. Just like we would a podcast and I want to begin By just sort of talking to you gentlemen before we begin the Q &A I want to ask a question from my own heart sort of have you guys answer this as we know.

You guys have both mentioned That there are good revivals and that there are revivals that are not good. We talked about the tents and we talked about how Scheduling revival is not necessarily The way that we see biblically it's something that sort of came out of the the Phineas and Second Great Awakening things like that.

So with that in mind very recently there was a revival in or what was called a revival in Asbury, Kentucky and We created this conference way before that ever happened. So just in case people think that this conference was somehow a response to Asbury.

It wasn't but I do want to get you guys to both sort of give your thoughts. I know you both looked into it. I know you both had thoughts that you've shared with me and I thought a good way to sort of get the ball rolling is What were your thoughts about it?

What did you see from an outsider looking in? I know none of us got to go. So everything that we're going to say is purely opinion and and I want to say this to the commenters on YouTube we're allowed to have opinions and That's what we're sharing.

This is just our thoughts and that we weren't there and we can't speak with authority. All we can do is say this is what we saw what we think and whoever wants to go first.

Well first and foremost time will tell if it was an actual revival time will always looks back to say whether the Great Awakening or the Second Great Awakening was an actual revival because a true revival has a change that last.

As those things were transpiring you could get on their Livestream and you could watch it so that's what I would do about every evening when I would get home to see what was new or what was going on and.

The absence from the chapel service was a clear Consistent pattern of the Word of God being preached. I'm not saying that somebody didn't get up there and read the Bible. I'm not saying that somebody didn't mention the name of Jesus, but the consistent pattern of the proclamation and the exposition of God's Word was not consistently.

Done in the auditorium in which was being live-streamed lots of singing lots of raising hands a lots of emotionalism there was many Testimonials that would come on there and say there's been large amounts of people wanting to be closer to God.

Wanting to be have a better relationship with God, but with all this God talk. They seem to drowned out the Christ centeredness of it. That was what I have I had seen. Was I there? No, and I told Keith if something like this happens Be ready within the day of it continuing to hop on a flight and we will go and we will check it out in person.

But so next time look out here we come yeah.

Three three of us on the horses and things that were that were taking place. On the side you could hear what we can't control the amount of people coming. We we need to do something to maybe move people to another venue.

I'm sorry if that broke out here. We're not moving and we're not stopping. We're gonna can and we'll figure out a way to get people that are wanting to come and to continue here the preaching of the Word.

We're gonna figure out how to do that if it means pop up a tent outside. So people have somewhere to go call in portalettes. That's what we would do. But if you all know this they that two weeks later.

They said hey, we want to ask people to quit coming. If that was true revival they just hindered the work of the Spirit and That bought that was bothersome to me. Let's don't send it to another place that this is where the Spirit of God is working and people are really flocking there.

Then why wouldn't we continue it and I would I would have asked that question.

No, I mean you you've answered most of my thoughts And I have Not been able to get all the facts as you said and and all I saw was really the reports and so many interviews that were done by the but in those organizations, but the thing that did strike me was what was twofold one was the lack of the preaching and You know the revivals were going 24 hours a day.

But it didn't seem to be a real emphasis on in that sense Messages being given to different groups coming in at different times in the different things. It just was seemed like almost had a party atmosphere to it.

That was the other part was the experiential part when they interviewed some of the people who was supposed to be the ones who kind of were Logistically handling it was all experience-based. It wasn't there wasn't as much emphasis on the word and Conversion as it was people are really enjoying themselves.

And again to me that was Somewhat of a sign not knowing all the facts that it was perhaps Not really a true worker revival. But other than that, I think what you said brother is are the main things that To be considered about anything that calls itself a revival.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And I would only add this thought is I'm always concerned with what cannot be criticized. If you're not allowed to criticize something because you it's it's. How dare you say? This might not be a work of God anytime I see that that that rings in my heart of not being the the the Biblical discerners that were supposed to be.

We're supposed to discern we're supposed, you know. Even when Paul preached the the Berean said let us look at the scriptures to see whether or not these things are so. And if we can't criticize something that I mean think about me.

I heard recently it was a good quote. It said it said the people who have the control in a society or the people who can't be criticized the people who are the true People who are in charge are the people you can't say anything about and think about who those groups are in our society.

They're the groups that can't be challenged for anything whether it's the letter people or whatever, you know. And you know what I mean by that, you know, the people who go by they're defining themselves by their letters types.

Can't can't criticize them because if you do You're going to be Doxed you're gonna be Marginalized you're gonna be put off of Twitter and Facebook and all these things because you're not allowed to criticize that.

Well the same thing I saw happen at Asbury because I posted one small tweet simply to say Shouldn't we be able to question what's going on here, especially when it's being Visited and attended by false teachers and I mentioned that Todd Bentley went if you don't know who Todd Bentley is.

Todd Bentley is a Maniac, he's an absolute maniac and his teachings are far afield from scripture. In fact, I'm gonna be talking about him tomorrow because in our text tomorrow in Colossians. It talks about the worship of angels and Todd Bentley believes that he receives his revelation through an angel.

He talks about seeing the angel in his in his revivals quote-unquote revivals now. Some people challenged me and they said well just because he went doesn't mean they endorsed him and that's true on Asbury's favor.

They didn't endorse him. They didn't put him on stage. They didn't ask him to speak and I get that.

But I did. They should have asked him to leave.

Amen, and and and. I don't know that I don't know what happened with him. But ultimately if we can't criticize if we can't ask questions, maybe the word criticize is wrong if we can't ask a question.

Could this be pure emotionalism as we talked about what would John says. John says don't believe every spirit. But what? That's right. See whether they be of God or not. So, I mean, I think it's even stronger that not only do you question the test?

And the test would have to be the Word of God and and the fruit that would the Word of God says is to proceed.

Out of it granted with a time built into it. Yeah, I'm thankful that there wasn't people falling on the ground flopping like fish out of water. Hysterical laughing or someone walking around touching people like a Holy Ghost bartender giving him shots of the Holy Spirit.

I'm glad that was not what we saw. So that does give some encouragement that maybe the work of the Spirit could have actually been doing something. Could have. Time will tell we'll look back on this time.

And you know what maybe in this time next year, we may not even remember as Barry. Yeah, or we may look back and go. Oh, wow. We. We may be wrongly criticized them. It was a true work of God.

Yeah. But Tom but time but time will tell and any one of us would be willing to say that. Sure to say that the God can do this. Yeah. And it and and as much as we believed in the first Great Awakening and and and in parts of the second Great Awakening.

You know the things that were good. Then, you know, we can say God can do it again.

And and and certainly we're not saying that's impossible. Sure. The young man that preached the sermon. Or the message. It was nothing erroneous about it. There was nothing Heretical. It was a a speech about loving the P loving God and loving the community.

So could God have used that? Well, of course he could have. He didn't he did. Speak of the holiness of God and the and the righteousness of God and the sinfulness of man those things he did speak of. So I'm not saying that that that.

God can't use that he certainly could because what he said was true. God uses truth. He does not use falsehood. Yeah.

Revival, Discernment, and the Limits of Criticism

Well, brother Jerry you have the microphone and I'm hoping that there is going to be some interaction praying for interaction from some of our folks that maybe have a question and You're welcome to ask all three of us or if you want to pinpoint on one of us maybe from a specific message that was preached and One thing I would just preface by saying that even though as elders we always seek to speak with one voice We do have differing opinions and there may be a time where one of us has a little different answer than the other and we're Willing done all of us to say that none of us have arrived at pure perfection.

And our thing you don't believe that come to one of our oldest meetings. Yeah.

So so when you ask your question, just know that you know, we'll answer as best we can brother Jerry.

I kind of want to start there because that's where my question is. Growing up I never went to a revival, but I went to these huge conferences. However, my question is for all three of you I.

Would I would counsel in the same way I would counsel anyone I I wouldn't discourage and I would probably Seek to carefully encourage and counsel to See how you know what Jesus said. He said it's it's He that preserves their perseverance to the end shall be saved and I think I would handle it that way.

Not trying to limit God that God can only save in a reformed orthodox Church. But God can save anywhere and he does save anywhere and he does save by his means and not our means. But I would I would be cautiously seeking to encourage them to press on and to See where they are and where their?

Purposes. Are they going to church? Are they? Reading the Bible or they are they pressing on in those things that we know to be the marks of a true Convert, so I think I would handle it that way. Not be two on one side or two on the other side.

Certainly. Would encourage that person to continue on Firsthand experience. I have a worker that's worked for me for Almost 18 years. He supposedly had gotten converted at a Billy Graham crusade. This is no bash on Billy Graham so when I say this massive evangelism and He would tell you today that he's not The Finney ism that comes out of those type of things.

The aisle walk was all from Charles Finney. Charles Finney believed in what we would call decisional regeneration, which means you regenerate yourself by the Spirit I mean by your decision that Activates the Spirit of God in the heart of the believer and that is what we see in mass Evangelism.

And if you think that what I'm saying is misrepresenting Finney I would I just have you read his book or read his sermon where the sinner changes his heart to God. But how does a sinner change his own heart?

He can't that's the power of God but in that mass evangelism having people come forward and and pray and those massive Crusades are just erroneous because they they don't save the coming forward and all of that does not save.

Emotionalism does not save when someone saved is there any motion attached to it? Well, of course there is but we filter that emotion through The scriptures to see if that conversion was genuine and has it sustained as he said it would continue on.

And just no no, no, I would say to clarify you wouldn't say people can't get saved you say the.

Method is the method. Hey, and I mean I could go off on Finney.

The way if you.

During the second Great Awakening Finney's methods were attacked. That's not what should have been attacked on Charles Finney from Ozzie Hill Nettleton Lyman Beecher those other men that looked at what he was doing.

This is erroneous. You have to look at his theology and if you look at his theology his theology is what drove his methodology and. Because his theology was wrong his methodology was wrong. And if you don't want to take my word for it read his systematic theology, which is neither systematic nor theological.

But if you would read it, you would see that what I am saying is true. Don't take my word for it.

That's gonna be a great quote just to clip that moment's neither systematic nor is it theological. I Would only add I would agree with both What brothers have said. I would add one thought? If somebody comes to me and says I got saved at X and whatever X is this church this revival this.

You know Bible study. I want to know if they know what the gospel is. And so if they were at that revival and didn't get saved through the gospel, then they didn't get saved. So so that's my first thing.

Do you understand the gospel? That's my you know My basic question for everyone and if they heard the gospel and it was preached and they responded to it Then as brother Andy said we would look for the fruit of repentance and and and a life that was changed.

That would be the result of that now again we can't always see everything we want at the beginning because people do grow in sanctification, but Understanding the gospel would be primary if a person had.

If a person has understood the gospel Then I don't know how they could have gotten saved. They could have had an emotional experience but but salvation comes by hearing and hearing through the Word of Christ, so That that would be my first thing.

I'd want to know from them.

Charles Finney, Decisional Regeneration, and Pragmatism

Let me clarify something. Billy Graham crusade does preach the gospel. So I want you to be clear. Oh sure. Okay, they're not preaching a false gospel, but their methodology Creates false conversions and that's even in their own records.

They're aware that 95 to 90 percent of the people that come forward are illegitimate conversions.

Yeah, they say that they say they say. They'll tell you that they'll say. We know that a lot of this is just people responding in emotion.

Yeah, just throw a wide net and hope they get some good fish. Yeah. Yeah, throw the drag net.

All right, brother, let's see if there's anyone else I know we have at least a couple. Someone raise your hand if you have a question. We got one right here. Well, you're the yeah, you're the fit you're probably.

He's a finny expert on the panel but go ahead. Appears by his writings.

He was very Pelagian. He did not first of all if if you deny original sin Everything collapses. Because if you deny original sin and that Adam sin was not imputated to you and I Then that means man then has the ability to save himself.

Finney did not believe that men's will was bound to his sinfulness because he denied original sin and I said this last night I'll say it again. He denied the imputation of Christ's righteousness. To the center if you or you or you or anybody in this room does not get the righteousness of Christ Imputated on our behalf.

There's no gospel. And not only did he he deny imputation he denied obviously justification. So he he drew these things out of his own mind and I can't remember the exact page number I know it's in his memoir.

I think it's page 58. I think I know in his systematic theology page 370 to 373 He calls justification and the imputation of Christ's righteousness theological fiction so He is not taking 2nd Corinthians 5 where it says he made him who knew no sin To be sin on our behalf that we might have the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus you understand it.

So where was he drawing it from his own figment of his own imagination from his only devising of his own interpretations? Why do you think he then immediately went from being a revival preacher? To moving quickly into the holiness movement to where men could be sanctity.

Perfectly sanctified that's where he that's where most of his efforts then were moved to. So that's where he was. He was a scoundrel. He was moving from one place to the next, you know, I.

Would say just and again, I can't quote the exact page like Photographic memory over here Kevin, but From what I know of Finney and that host Time Finney was sincere at least at the beginning. But I Would caution because being sincere you could be sincerely wrong.

Yes, right. And I think in part that's what Finney was he was sincere at least before I would say he fell into the ditch, but Sincerity in and of itself and I think sincerity will drive us to do a lot of things but sincerity Has to be tested again by the the true standard which is going back to word of God.

Because there is a great danger for all of us, especially when you will want to believe something. Again, you could be sincere and sincerely wrong. So I would say that was part of what happened in that whole Time frame.

Would and that led to the camp meetings and then the camp meetings seemed to be successful. So now they extended it and then they had more larger camp meetings and and on and on and on so I.

Would add that into it. Even his own biography was frustrated that he would go back where mass conversions had taken place and There was nothing that had remained. So then you had men like Azahel Nettleton who actually confronted him on his methodology.

Kindly did that and he was unwilling to change course. So when a person is corrected by the scripture and then is Unwilling to submit to the authority of the scripture that should be suspect. That's me included.

You come to me and I'm on a course that It's taking me down a path that is error and falsehood that could lead to false teaching and you come to me and lovingly. Or I wouldn't even care if it was lovingly.

You openly with hostility Rebuked me and I am unwilling to turn course and get back to orthodoxy. You should be suspect of the words that come out of my mouth from that way forward and that should it be with any.

And ladies if anyone's looking for a great name for a baby, Azahel, it would be the. That's my recommendation. Ozzie I Do want to speak one last quick thing about Finney. In this regard Finney is you asked about his the biblical question and I think because I've been dealing a lot lately with people who are obviously anti-reformed and I and I've had a lot of conversations with people who Oppose our view of man's deadness and sin and things like that and here are the two ditches Andy talks about these two ditches all the time.

But when it comes to this question, the two ditches are on one side you have people who believe because man is responsible He must be able and the other side. And that's what we call the Arminian or maybe even the Pelagian view and the other side is the hyper Calvinist that says because man Is not able he must not be responsible and therefore you end up with people who don't believe in evangelism and things like that.

And the biblical balance and Andy mentioned this in his messages is sometimes hard to grasp that man is fully responsible yet God is fully sovereign and how we justify those two things is difficult. But that is what the Bible teaches that we're fully responsible.

We're responsible for our sin we're responsible for these things and yet God is sovereign and the the ditch that it seems that Finney was in was the ditch of because man is responsible. He must be able therefore I must use whatever methods necessary to make this responsible man respond and There is no unwrong, there is no wrong method when when the eye when it's about this thing.

So I can use whatever method works and there is the birth of pragmatism. Yeah when it becomes whatever works must be right and. And so at the end of the day, it's it's a denial of biblical categories of man's nature it's denial of those things, but it's also The birthplace of the pragmatic movement and we've seen.

And liberalism and you can see how people would want to jump on that train because that train appears successful. Oh, yeah.

Nobody's ever Garnered the crowds that the revivalist movement has there's there's another one going on right now. And I and I hesitate to even mention his name, but Greg Locke is Is is is is courting thousands and thousands of people to his church.

Which is which is not a building. It's in a tent. They intentionally have it in a tent, but they have Nightly services and these things they just made a feature film about it because of the the people that are supposedly being delivered.

It's I think the film is called come out in Jesus name because they're doing all these demon exorcisms and stuff. Hey, you want to go that's the one we can go to. Let's get on a plane brothers. Here we come.

He even put out a twenty five thousand dollar reward for anybody that could prove Cessationism which is a fool's errand. Because nobody who puts out a reward like that is going to accept any evidence you place before him.

Anyway, and and whatever we might feel about the the position of cessation ism contained continuation ism. The same thing could be said by a person who disagrees with the Trinity. I give a $25 ,000 reward for anybody who can prove the Trinity.

Well, if you've already determined that the Trinity isn't true, I can't show you anything that's going to solve the problem anyway. So your $25 ,000 offer is a joke. It's not real because you're not going to accept correction.

Because you've decided you're already above it and that again is because why because I got thousands of people. Hey, man, Foxy, you've only got 80 people in your church. I've got thousands of people in my church.

That means I must be right. Well, then we go over to Dallas and we see Joel Osteen. Who's got a basketball stadium full of people and you say well, does that mean he's right? It's not about counting noses.

It's about the truth. All right. Who else? Come on now. Who we got oh you again, okay. We're. Even if you don't see a ton of fruit at the during that, okay, I'll let you guys go first. I have a thought little age before beauty.

Again, I think what we've said in the messages in different ways and at different times in the messages is that in order to remain encouraged and not become discouraged we need to Stay where God has called us to stay again preaching of the word the word itself and prayerful meditation on the word because those are the things that You know what Isaiah says he said.

Isaiah 26 says you will keep them in perfect. Peace. Whose mind is stayed on him on thee? And so when you think about that the only real Encouragement in the midst of discouragement is what? David said he encouraged himself in the Lord and I think there's a great danger because we are many times emotional and and Looking for something to charge our spiritual batteries kind of that we miss the forest for the trees because our real encouragement and our real hope in the midst of trouble as the psalmist said is In the Lord and so I would say stayed upon Jehovah.

Like we sing that our hearts are fully resting there. And so I would encourage us to to look at that rather than looking.

With your wife wants me to slap your hand. Could you keep it in the table?

You might know someone who encourages me when I'm doing wrong.

That was a great that brother. I'm sorry I'm gonna interrupt you.

Your thoughts. Can you clarify are you asking like was it? How did Ezra not get discouraged? Do you mind I get discouraged or are you asking? How. My encouragement comes first and foremost that God's remaining faithful to his people.

Then my encouragement also then comes from serving with two other men That I know are faithful to the Lord. This is the first time I've served with three men that I could explicitly trust and know that they are Faithful men of God that love the Lord.

No, look there is no. There is no inkling in my mind that these men do not love the Lord. They do not love his word and that they do not love God's people. They love all of those and we love you. I'm part of God's flock.

Yeah. So and that I'm thankful for but what how I stay encouraged is just as Ezra knew his role. Okay. And as Nehemiah knew his role and as those other Levites that came alongside Ezra and knew their role is to stay in my lane.

My job as an elder and pastor of this church, is it to never at any time try to usurp any of. When I say the authority the the unique position that Keith has nor am I tried to think that I could usurp any type of Gifting that Andy has and he's been gifted in such a way that I have been not.

He's certainly gifted in a way that both me and Andy have not and the unique position that he has. Okay, so I'm encouraged that God's going to continue to use all of us as a unit. Well, I'm gonna say this and if I need to clarify it I will.

Keith's position is very unique. Even though we're three elders. Okay, three pastors, but his position is very unique in the sense that he's the vocational person. Me and Andy are not that person our ministry to the body is much different than the ministry that Keith gives to the body.

Because his is week in week out as the voice that God has put him to be to this group. If we were to lose Keith in any shape form or fashion Me and Andy would be in an ecclesiastical crisis. Would we not?

Yes. Okay. Now I'm not saying that me and Andy are easily replaced. But we could raise up other men within the body quickly. To take my role to help lead the body to shepherd the people with the unit.

Andy could get somebody to replace me if he needed to if something happened to me. It would be very difficult for us to replace Keith that quickly. Can me and Andy hold hold down the bat and hold the fort down till we found somebody most certainly.

But that would be very difficult. So to answer your question I stay encouraged that God is going to continue to use us as a unit to lead God's people and my first and foremost is To remain faithful to God faithful to his word and faithless to his people and whatever God does to his people here that he's entrusted Us as God's business and I stay encouraged that God's faithful that his word will not return void.

If anyone wants to correct or need me to clarify something, I'll be willing to do that. Well, I'll answer.

With a little different than than how the brothers answered. Because it is easy to get discouraged. Mike and I have talked some about this and and and Andy and I as well. Andy has. You know Andy and Mike both both have different experiences.

Both of them have served in other churches. I never have but and and and and I do have I have battles with sadness and Discouragement. That I have shared with them and that I've shared openly here. I'm not.

I try to be an open book. To be honest about things that I struggle with. But there's a story and I won't make it I won't take. I won't tell that I won't tell it the long way. There's a short way in a long way to tell this story.

I'll tell the short way there's a story about a man who was who handed out tracts on a on a pier as People were getting onto boats going across from the United States to Europe. And they were traveling and he was every day was at the same pier handing out gospel tracts.

And that was his ministry and A man got a gospel tract read it on the boat and got saved and while he got saved he he began to talk to other people who had also gotten gospel tracts and and Over his time of traveling back and forth from the United States to Europe he began to realize that this man had talked to hundreds of people and many of those people had gotten saved and so there was there was actually a Vast amount of people who had been touched by this man's ministry.

Well, finally he makes it his mission to go back to that pier where that man was and there he was just as he'd always been faithful handing out tracts and he goes to the man and he Says hey, I want you to know that.

You gave me this track several years ago I got saved and I've talked to hundreds of people who have gotten saved through this and he said I didn't know there was one. He said no one has ever come back and told me that this was doing anything.

He said but this is what God gave me to do. And so I do it. And I and and he cried he said the guy wept. But that's that's a faithfulness that has to be from God that even if we don't see. Like you said some of the people who started the the old you know going through that people who were at the beginning weren't at the end.

That's right. You know. Even if we don't see all the fruit we stay the course we do it and we preach and we study and we love and we pray. And we know that God's going to be faithful. It's just. It can be tough.

But trusting in God's faithfulness is the answer and that Christ is building his church.

That's right. Mike Collier not Keith Foskey. Not Andy Montora. Christ is building his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

I told this story. Actually, I just told that story like two weeks ago on Wednesday night, didn't I? Sorry? I didn't mean it'd be so repetitive. No, no, no, why. Just because it was about the must. There's there's one parable in Mark.

There's a parable in Mark that's not in any other gospel and It's the Jesus is giving a list of parables or he's saying parables but there's one in Mark where he says a man plants a seed and He goes to sleep and the seed begins to sprout and the man doesn't know how.

Now that seems like a weird thing to say and it's only in Mark that this one little parables there but the point is that the gospel itself is Powerful enough to go out and as long as we're planting the seed as long as we're preaching the gospel God will be working even when we're asleep.

That's right. And that was the point of that parable. God's gonna work even when we are in our times of rest.

You know, I think about in the Psalms Psalmist. The psalmist says one generation shall praise you to another and I think that that ultimately It is the mainstay for for anyone who's seeking to see the kingdom of God move forward in any position.

That the realization as brother Mike said God is faithful One generation shall praise him to another. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church and in that day Everything will be made.

Perfectly clear. Amen. Was anyone else have a question? It looks like we got one over here.

John 16 8 He will retrieve the world sin and of righteousness and of judgment and. Of course, this is Jesus words, and I'm never going to speak against him. But when is that going to happen? Because it seems like the world today Rejects Jesus.

They don't believe what they're doing is simple. They don't care about righteousness.

John 16:8, Conviction of Sin, and the Work of the Spirit

Mm-hmm. Well, I have my thoughts but I'll let you guys I don't have to go last but I could go first. Okay? Well, then I may get corrected and that's fine a couple of things to consider. You know, there's there's always the conversation about the word world and does it always in fact have in its view every single person?

Because oftentimes It's referring in that sense to people of every tribe tongue and nation and that when the gospel goes out it does in fact reprove everyone who is it's intended to Regenerate and save and so one one could say that in that sense that may be the that may be the answer.