MSL: April 18, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, your host of Matt Slick Live on this lovely, let's see, it's April 18th, 2024 for the podcasters. If you wanna give me a call, as usual, all I have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276 and then we can talk.

We're still having issues with the emails. I have to figure out what the problem is. I've been super busy today and I'll probably tackle it tomorrow, but I mean, I just shut everything down, you know, and just go in and anyway, we wanna let you know that the prayer team and the prayer stuff that we send out, all that stuff, the reason we're not doing that right now is because of the email problems with Gmail.

All of a sudden, we're having problems. Now, is it because the empire of the left doesn't want us to do something or is it because something changed? Everything's been fine for years and all of a sudden, here we are with that.

So anyway, just another issue. All right, like I said, if you wanna give me a call, 877 -207 -2276, you can also, I'd say you can, I think you can email me. I think emails can come in, but we can't send them out.

So info at CARM .org, info at CARM, C-A-R-M .o-R-G. You can email us there and hopefully, everything will work fine. All right, wait, let's just jump right on the phones. Let's get to Matt from, I guess, Connecticut.

Matt, welcome, you are on the air.

Hi, Matt, how's it going?

It's going, man, it's going. What do you got, buddy?

You know, I actually was, I recently left a church I had been at for 10 years and I was considering this other church. Now, I think I'd been there basically about six times, but there was something that happened in a Bible study where there was a misunderstanding about something with Roman Catholicism.

And, you know, I had mentioned that, like, they would be an example of, you know, mixing, you know, false religion in with the true religion, you know, like paganism and some of the, yeah. So I made a comment, but there was actually a misunderstanding where one of the things somebody said was not actually that.

And, but I ended up talking to the pastor of the church today and I guess it was revealed in the conversation with him that he actually considers Roman Catholicism another denomination within Christianity.

Like he doesn't consider it, like for me, I would consider it outside of Christianity. Because I think they have a different gospel. But he looks at it like the Orthodox and Catholic state that those are within the umbrella of Christianity, Orthodox, Catholic, you know.

Well, the pastor's wrong. And he needs to study and he needs to understand why the Reformation happened and why Roman Catholicism is outside the camp of Christ. It's not just me saying it, people who study Christian theology, who study what the Bible actually says, Roman Catholicism, it's official doctrines, they know.

The Roman Catholic Church is not Christian. It teaches a false gospel, it adds works to salvation, and it teaches and promotes idolatry in Mary worship and other things. So he's just, he's ill-informed.

Now, one of the requirements of a pastor is to be able to refute error and teach sound doctrine. So if anybody

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, Matt.

If anybody in the church knows that he's teaching this and if the elders know he's teaching this, that they're Christian, then they need to confront him and correct him politely and lovingly. And if he refuses to recant and still says Catholicism is Christian, then he needs to be removed from the pulpit, okay?

You know, the strange thing, too, is this, you know, what drew me to this church, it's kind of like the evangelical free church, and he is reformed in his superiority, so that was one of the things that made me want to go there, because he does believe in the five points of Calvinism.

So I thought, you know, I didn't expect this. This was unexpected, you know?

What I would do, if I were you, if you could try this, you can go to my website, karm .org forward slash c-u-t for cut and paste, and you'll see a list of things there, and so you can go down to the Roman Catholicism section and just click it, and it's designed, now I have a major section on Roman Catholicism, like 150 articles, but this is just one thing, and so people can do quick and slick, okay?

You click on the salvation link at the top of the article, and it'll take you down there, and it'll tell you, it'll quote from Catholic doctrine, from Catholic writings, of the things it teaches about salvation.

Salvation through the Catholic church alone. Heaven is God's reward for good works. You merit grace for yourself. Salvation through keeping the commandments. You can be saved without knowing the gospel of Christ.

Catholics are still under the law, and what's necessary for salvation in Catholicism, according to its own documents, which I read, and the word necessary is in these, and I won't read all the particulars, but what's necessary for salvation in Roman Catholicism is the church, baptism, penance, sacraments, service and witness to the faith, keeping the Ten Commandments, and detachment from riches.

So I would take this section of Karm and print it up, if you want, or copy parts of it and print it up, take it to him, and just say, look, do you know about this? And if he doesn't know, he goes, oh my goodness, I had no idea.

Well, okay, good.

Yeah, he said he's strongly against a lot of things, obviously, he said that's why I'm Protestant, you know, he's not, you know, he is against it, but he just believes that, it's almost like he doesn't see this as like, like, I kept trying to say, well, I think this is beyond just denominational, like, you know, differences, this is something, he really doesn't, you know?

Yeah, it is. If I was in that congregation and I found this out, I would go to him, and I wouldn't be in attack mode, I would just say, look, are you familiar with what it actually teaches? And maybe he's just not.

But I am, and I will just say it, Roman Catholicism is not Christian, it is false doctrine, and all who die believing official Roman Catholic theology regarding salvation are damned. It teaches a false gospel.

Do you think that I'm wrong. For now, now I'm kind of considering not going to that church and just going back to my, the church I left?

Well, yeah, that's definitely a consideration, but what I would do is go to the site and print up the document. There's a lot of stuff there, it's easy, you could just print it up, maybe it might be 10 pages, but you could just take the section, salvation, you know, and you could just highlight it, copy it, put it into Word or something, and just print it up, two, three pages, I think, whatever it is, and just take it to him and say, this is from official Catholic stuff.

This is official doctrine, what do you think of this? And if he still, seriously, if he still says they're Christian in light of this, then he doesn't know his doctrines, and he does not know what true salvation and the doctrine of salvation is.

And then you have to go to the elders, and you gotta tell the elders, because they would, this is a serious issue, because this is the actual essence of the gospel. If he were to reject the documentation, say, no, they're still Christian, even though they require works for salvation, which is against what the gospel is, absolutely against it.

So, I think you might wanna consider actually doing that. Okay?

Well, I appreciate your advice. I'm glad I talked to you, because some other people I told about this situation, they kinda made me feel like I'm making a big deal about, like, oh, you're just getting hung up on these secondary issues.

I'm like, I don't know, that's a big deal, you know?

It's not a secondary issue. The gospel itself is not secondary, yeah.

Yeah, that's a very important, that's like one of the most critical issues, you know, so.

Yes, it is. And it just shows you that this is typical of so many people who don't understand biblical theology, because pastors and elders aren't teaching them. Now, I'm not saying every pastor and elder doesn't do this or bad and evil.

I'm not saying that. But this problem is just so prevalent, and I come across it all the time, where Christians raised in a church, been a Christian 10, 15, 20 years, they don't even know what justification is.

They don't even know. And they don't understand what Catholicism teaches. It's just, it's bad. It happens a lot. Yeah, it's bad.

Well, thanks for your time. I appreciate your answer.

Sure. Stand up for righteousness, even when others won't, because you now know this. Now, you have an obligation to do something with it. You have to act. You either bring the information to him, or you leave.

And I would tell him while you're leaving, if you do. Me, I'm different from most people. I will go and talk to them. I will, I'll say, I'm sorry, but I don't know if you know this. What do you think of this?

And then if they continue to do that, it's bad. In fact, once I, years ago, back in Southern California, there was a church that was hosting a Christian science lecture. And Christian science denies a trinity, the deity of Christ that says we're all divine.

The atonement of Jesus Christ was no more efficacious to cleanse from sin. The blood of Christ was no more efficacious to cleanse from sin when it was shed upon the cross than when he was walking around doing his father's business.

That's Science and Health, the key to the scriptures, page 25, line eight. And so, you know, I said, oh, this guy, this pastor of this church doesn't know this. So I brought documentation to the church, to the pastor we met, and I was talking.

And I was very polite, and I said, are you aware of what they teach? And he says, well, what do you mean? And I quoted him this stuff, more stuff. And I said, do you see how problematic this is? And he said, well, they have their opinions.

I said, but you let them use your facility to promote this. I said, is that what you want to continue to do? And he says, yeah, everybody has a right to believe whatever they want. I said, but it's a false gospel.

And he said, well, they can do whatever they feel like. It's okay, they can sell you the church. And I said, are you a Christian? And he kicked me out of his office. Yeah, are you even a Christian? Do you even know?

Yeah, so.

Yeah, like you said, there's some things you gotta take a stand for, I mean, absolutely.

This is one of them. All right, this is one of them. This is one of the ones you die, you shed your blood for, this issue of salvation. Not pre-trib rapture, post-trib rapture, okay, whatever. This you die for, okay?

That's how important it is, all right?

Well, you know, it's always good to talk to you, Matt, and to listen to you, and I hope the rest of your callers, I hope to listen in here, you say, for everybody else.

Well, you know, I try, and I know that I say pretty tough stuff sometimes, but that's just the nature of what truth is, it doesn't care about your feelings. So I say to people, submit to the word of God.

I was actually counseling online with a group of people, men who claim to be Christians, and one in particular was living with his girlfriend. And another one, the day before I was talking, was living with his girlfriend.

And I'm just calling them both to repentance. You know, and I'm not yelling and screaming at them, you're on your way to hell, I said, you need to act like Christian men. If you're gonna claim the name of Christ, do it.

Live it, don't compromise, you know, and stuff like that. So that's what I say, we as Christian men should not compromise, not the faith, not the essentials. Okay?

All right, Matt, have a great night, take care.

You too, man, God bless, buddy.

Thank you, God bless.

Oh yeah, good for him, good for him, good for him. I'm glad that he's aware and concerned. He should be concerned, this is an essential doctrine. The Roman Catholic Church as well as the East Orthodox Church are both outside the camp of Christ.

All right, we'll get to Scott after the break. If you wanna give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. I'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Now, yesterday I forgot to do something. I was supposed to say happy birthday to Carrie and I forgot to do that yesterday. I guess I got so busy, got so many things going on.

So I know Carrie's listening and hey, happy belated birthday.

So sorry about that.

And the wonderful Laura said,.

Yeah, man, you're gonna do that.

And right now I'm gonna say hi to his, to, oh, where is it? I scrolled up Victor. Let's see where, oh man, here we go. I gotta get his name. Oh man, I can't believe I can't find it. Victor, he's a little two and a half year old and he's watching the, oh, he's listening to the show right now.

So I just wanted to say hi to him. But I wanted to get the whole name because it was written and then all of a sudden the text went up forward and doing all this good stuff here. So, oh, what is his name?

I can't get it, but his name's Victor. He's two and a half and I'm just saying hi. All right, that's good, that's good. What, boy, man, I guess you,.

Anyway, hey, Victor, I'm waving to you.

All right, okay, let's get to Scott from Utah. Hey, Scott, welcome. You are on the air.

Hey, thanks for taking my call.

Sure.

We are having a new temple built here, a Mormon temple. And we have these long-term neighbors that we really care deeply for that are caught up in Mormonism and they've been bugging us to go to the opening, you know, the tour before they, it's in Layton, Utah.

Anyhow, I was just wanting your opinion. What would be three or four questions, like really poignant questions that you would maybe ask them to kind of really stir the thought in their mind about getting out of Mormonism and associate it with the temple?

Like, why do they have the temple? You know, I mean, what's the, you know, what hard-hitting question would you ask if you were me going on this tour with them?

Well, there's, see, I got, I'll tell you some stuff you can say. But we always gotta remember that they are, Mormons are loyal to their religion. They're demonically deceived. Sorry, Mormons are hearing this, they don't like that, but that's the case.

And they trust feelings. And so for them, truth is based upon an inner witness. And they feel that the witness of God is with them because they prayed about the Book of Mormon, they got a testimony, et cetera.

So all of it's sinful, what they've done, but they don't know that. And so if you were to go in and start yelling and screaming in the middle of the temple, Joseph Smith's a heretic, you know, they would rightfully kick you out.

So what do you do? How do you talk to your friends? And so what I do generally in that kind of a situation, if I had friends that said, hey, you wanna go to the temple? I say, yeah, sure, I go. I've been to many temple openings.

And so one of the things I could, you could ask, you could just ask. And you go to the temple and you say, I know you guys have a veil in there, right? Yeah, okay. But in Matthew 27, 51, Matthew 27, 51, when Jesus was crucified, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

And the earth shattered and the rocks were split. And I ask him, why does the Mormon church put back what God destroyed? Simple question.

That's a good one. That's a good one.

It's very simple. And another question I'll ask Mormons is tell you why I do it, in what context. Because you said it's in Layton, which is between Ogden and Salt Lake City. And so I may just come down there and hold up signs.

They're called, we do temple openings. I've done it here, done it other, where you just go hold up a sign, you know? And I have a sign, it's mormonismchristian .com. I just go out there in front and just hold it up.

I've done it many times. And Eric Johnson, he does that a lot. I don't know if he's gonna be doing it. He's in Sandy, Utah. So maybe I'll come down there and do it.

If I let people know I'll be on the radio, I'll go down there.

So anyway, so what I'll do sometimes outside is I'll ask these questions to people. I try not to be mean or anything. They think they're doing something really godly. But one of the questions I'll ask is, don't you have to pay a full 10 tithe of your income to get a temple recommend in order to go into the temple?

And they say, you know, yes. Well, here's a question then. Is your church then requiring a certain payment of money in order for you to go into the presence of God?

That's a good one.

Yeah.

And I've asked these kind of questions, whether it's a line passing by me, and I'll say these things to people holding up the sign. They don't like it that I do this. But I have to ask these questions.

And another question I say is, in the temple, in the temple, is it not true that you go in and you do ceremonies, you kneel down many times in different places, you do things? I said, I know you're not supposed to talk about what happens in the temple.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful here. But, and I point up to the golden image of Moroni. And I say, notice what is up at the top of your temple. It's not Christ. It's not the place of the crucifixion, but it's an angel, a golden image.

And you're bowing under the temple where he's on top. I said, is that suspicious to you? I'm not saying it is, I'm just asking the question. Why do you bow in a temple you gotta pay money to to get into, and on the top of the temple it's a golden image of an angel?

Why do you do that?

That's a good one. I've thought of too, they do their sealing ceremonies and in Matthew 22, 30, Christ says there will be no marriage in heaven. I've thought about asking that too. It's like, well, he clearly says there will be no marriage in heaven, so how do you guys, is he wrong?

You're saying there's gonna be marriage for eternity.

So? Yes, and you can basically tell when a man has invented a religion. Women, power, money. And we know why women are there, because Joseph Smith had over 30 wives and Brigham Young had over 50. And Mohammed, he'd said that the average Muslim man could have up to four wives, but he could have many more.

And he got lots of money, lots of power. People say, well, Joseph Smith didn't have all that money. Yes, he did. He had a lot of money and a lot of power, and women. And so, there's that, there's another one I'll ask him.

I'll ask him, and in line, I'll repeat this, because as they walk by, and I'm just there, and I say, Joseph Smith said he saw God the Father, because that's the first vision. And I'll say, why does the Bible say in 1 Timothy 6, 16 that the Father dwells in unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see?

So, the Bible says the Father cannot be seen. Joseph Smith said he saw the Father. Who are you gonna believe, God and his word, or Joseph Smith? And then, sometimes.

They do have that listed as one of their books, so, I mean, you know, along with the three others.

You know, sometimes they'll respond to me. Some will wanna respond, and they'll say, well, the Bible's been corrupted. And they'll say, okay, so it's corrupted, right? So, it's not true, then, what Jesus, what Paul the Apostle said?

Are you saying it's false, what he said there? Now, they're stuck, because if they say it's false, how do they know? They just say it's corrupted, because the eighth article of the Mormon Church says so.

Hey, we gotta hold on, okay, there's a break, so hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We have two open lines, 877 -207 -2276. We'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show. If you wanna give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276. All right, so we're having a problem with our email, so they're not going out right now.

I have to do a whole bunch of troubleshooting tomorrow, gotta figure some stuff out. I don't know what I'm gonna do. If I can't figure it out, we gotta change email systems, so you can see how big a problem that we're having.

That's why the prayer stuff hasn't gone out yet, so we're just there. We lost the guy from the LDST questions and stuff. That's okay, no big deal. So now, let's get to Susan from New Jersey. Susan, welcome here on the air.

Hi, how are you?

I'm okay, how are you?

I'm good. I was calling, so I have two daughters. My older daughter, she's 26. Her boyfriend is Catholic. He doesn't go to church, but says that that's his religion and he doesn't feel like he's in church when he goes with us.

My daughter, she's a Christian. We went to church, but when she went to college, she kinda stopped going. So she still believes, but going to church to her isn't really important at this time. And I'm just wondering what you suggest how I should guide her.

I don't wanna insult her boyfriend. I mean, I thought maybe Lutheran would be a happy medium, but I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Actually, that's not a bad idea, actually. The Lutheran, some of them are bad, but LCMS, Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. That's within orthodoxy, Lutheran sub-denomination. I went to a Lutheran, an LCMS college.

Not because I'm Lutheran, I never was, never would be, but just ended up going there. And there are a lot of good people there. They love the Lord and a lot of good stuff. So that might be, because some of them have this liturgical thing.

And some people think church is the robes, the incense, the, and then you gotta stand up, sit down, turn around, touch your nose. And they say, that's church. That to me, kills me, that would kill me.

But some people love it, okay? So it just depends. So that's not a bad idea, actually. Seriously, I'm glad you said that.

I mean, I don't really care, as long as she's saved, I don't really care. What, you know, to me, if that's, if all the standing and sitting and repeating is what you feel brings you closer to God, I'm okay with it, but I just, I wanna make sure she's not doing something against God.

Well, being a parent myself with children of that age, who are not walking with the Lord right now, we raised them in the Christian home, church, everything. They just made their own choices. So what do you do?

You continue to pray for them. I know you're doing that. And you continue to show love to them. And the problem is, you're the mom. Mom can't say it, but the neighbor can. A stranger can, you know, just how it is.

I have a friend, and he was talking to our youngest daughter. He's a really great Christian man. And my daughter would talk to him about the Lord, but not me. And he asked me, are you offended by that?

I said, not at all.

Keep going, because that's just how it is.

It doesn't bother me. All right, so what do you do? Well, if they're open to having conversations, you can have a conversation with them. They probably aren't open to that. I will, however, just say, if they'd be willing to have a conversation with me over the phone, I'd be glad to do that, very gently, and say, here's some of the issues, here's some of the stuff, this is what it is.

Ask your tough questions, if they want to do that. If not, that's okay, I'm just throwing it out there. You never know.

Thank you.

And so, and I'm serious, I'm dead serious about that. So, you could ask questions. You could say, well, can we go to a Catholic church, go to a service? And you just watch, and then say, to him, what do you think, and to her, what do you think?

And they might say, well, what do you think?

Because he, he had said he wanted to invite us to a church in Morristown, up north, where they live now. And I watched an online service, and I thought, my daughter's not gonna like that at all, because she's used to just going to our non-denominational church.

And I bet, I bet neither one of them are gonna enjoy that, really.

Well, but here's the thing, if you go with them, it's mom and dad, sometimes it's just not gonna work, because it's mom and dad. You know, my daughter's going to Europe, and she'll be leaving in a few weeks, and she's gonna stay over there, she's got lots of friends, and I said, hey, what do you think about me coming over and hanging out with you, with your friends?

And she says, oh, that would be wonderful, dad.

You know, and you know, but she's really gonna say this, don't even think about it.

And I just say it for fun, because that's how it is. That's okay. But you just never know, you can always test the waters. You know, hey, I'd be willing to go with you guys to a Catholic church to check it out.

Well, that might get them thinking. And if you go, because you're mom, you gotta be extra careful, right? And so.

I know.

Well, that's just what it is. So if they ask you, what do you think, you say, well, man, a lot of statues. I just don't see that in the Bible. You know, and why there's statues of Mary? I just, I don't, I don't see it in the Bible.

So I'm confused. And you don't have to say it's wrong. You just ask, why is that? And then leave it alone. Get some thought talking. And then you could say, maybe later, hey, you wanna come to our church?

And then the question is, which one's more biblical? Ultimately, which one follows scriptures more? And, you know, seeds of truth. And it takes a long time. And the other option is, you kidnap them both.

Don't let them sleep for 48 hours. You feed them coffee. You tape their eyelids open and you make them watch videos about the churches, the Catholic churches. That's another option.

Well, when I told my daughter, I said, maybe the Lutheran church, because my daughter doesn't believe in the Pope and confessing her sins to a priest. I know she doesn't, but she's just with this boyfriend and trying to just, you know, keep the peace, I guess.

But I thought Lutherans don't do that, right?

No, they could be liturgical, like a Catholic church. Some people like the liturgy of some Lutheran churches because of it. But if this is their relationship right now, it'll just get worse later on in the future.

I tell people that marriage, I do marriage counseling, marriage intensifies your relationship. Is it good? It'll be better. If it's bad, it'll be worse, generally speaking. So, yeah.

But will she still be saved if they do go that route?

Salvation isn't dependent on what church you go to. It's do you trust in Christ. I'm sure there's really Catholics who really are saved. They just don't know any better and they go to the Catholic church.

But salvation depends on her trusting in Christ, not a church, because the Roman Catholic church takes Jesus, puts him aside, and puts the church in place so that you have to go through the church, the sacraments, the priest, in order to get to Jesus.

So they do.

That's what I'm scared of.

Exactly. So, here's the thing. If she's really regenerate, the Holy Spirit will work on her. If she's not, she might just move into a false church like Catholicism. So, it's scary, there's great answers for it, just don't.

I know, I know, there aren't any answers. I just, I think I like the idea of the questions. You know, where does it say the Pope is, whatever they believe, I don't know. I guess I really should get on your website and read up more on what you say about that.

Yeah, there's a lot of, a great deal written about it. Like 6 ,000 articles, and 150 of them, or something like that, are on Catholicism alone. I've got notes, you know, my notes on Catholicism are 217 pages.

You know, I study, and that's kind of abnormal. And my wife would say to me, hey man, you're abnormal, all right. But, you know, it's just what I do. And so, there's a lot there. On the CAR website, on forward slash C-U-T, for cut, you know, cut and paste.

It'll forward you to a series of topics, and one of them is Roman Catholicism. You click on the link, and it'll take you to a single page. It's very long, but you can just scroll down through stuff and see the Catholic documentation for some of the things.

You might find something that you think might be useful. And you could even, you could print some of it up and have it with you. And you never bring it up, unless it's a good time to bring it up. They say, no, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that.

Well, I happen to have some documentation with me if you want to see it, you know.

Okay, knowledge is power.

You could say, hey, there's a guy named Slick on the radio. He'll talk to you, and see how that goes over, you know.

I would love that, nothing more, all right.

A guy named Slick, forget that.

Well, thank you, I appreciate the help. I enjoy your website a lot.

Well, good, thank you. It's what it's there for, to help people, by God's grace.

Okay, thank you. And if you could pray for, if you could pray for her. Her name is Jenny.

Okay, Joanne, who runs our prayer ministry, heard that, and she will, she'll make sure people know, okay.

Yep, thanks very much.

And call back sometime, let us know what happened, all right.

Okay, bye-bye.

Well, hey folks, we're at a break, and we have no callers waiting. If you want to give me a call, it's 877 -207 -2276. We'll be right back after these messages.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show, all right. So now what I want to do is get the number out, and get to the callers coming in, 877 -207 -2276. Let's get to Mildred from Charlotte, North Carolina.

Mildred, welcome here on the air.

To be with you, this is my first time even hearing you. And I wanted to encourage you, because I was listening to a couple of callers ago, and you were encouraging the guy to speak in truth, even when someone else was not speaking the truth.

And you were also encouraging the guy to give, you know, his comments in a tactical way, you know, not to be too blunt. So I appreciate you, and I encourage you to continue to help people speak the truth.

Secondly, with regards to the Catholic Church, I have never heard anyone say what you said about the Catholic Church being a false church, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. I grew up in New Orleans, where everybody went to a Catholic church, pretty much.

And if you asked them something about God, they couldn't tell you. If you asked them something about Jesus, they couldn't tell you, but they could do all this signs of the cross and mother of Mary and this and that and the other.

And so they had no relationship. They were just doing a whole bunch of, you know, religious things, but never had a relationship. And to your point about, you know, them looking at Mary as being, you know, above God, I'm like, what?

Above Jesus? I'm like, what? You know, no, this isn't about Mary. So yeah, thank you that she was the vessel that delivered the baby Jesus, but that's about it. You know, so from a savior standpoint, that is the gospel that we should be teaching, that the whole Old Testament was a prelude to when Jesus finally arrived.