October 30, 2020 Show with Paul Viggiano & Bill Shishko on “Apologetics & Pastoral Ministry” (Day 5 of a 5-Day Tribute to Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen)

Iron Sharpens Iron Opens With Proverbs 27:17 and the Tribute to Greg L. Bahnsen

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 30th day of October 2020.

And I am thrilled that we are conducting another tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson, a world-renowned scholar, theologian, philosopher, apologist, and debater who entered into this earth in 1948 and entered into glory for eternity with Jesus Christ in 1995.

And today's specific theme under that heading of a tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson is apologetics and pastoral ministry. And we have two guests to discuss that today. This is day number five of our five-day tribute that has been taking place all this week starting on Monday to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson.

Our two guests to discuss apologetics and pastoral ministry today. First of all, we have a first-time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Paul Vigiano of Branch of Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Torrance, California.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Paul Vigiano. And we also have a returning guest. Somebody, if you are a regular listener to this program, you are certainly familiar with a frequent guest on this program, Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which is currently meeting in Bohemia, Long Island, New York.

And it's great to have you as a guest. Once again, my dear friend since the late 1980s, Pastor Bill Shishko. Amen. Well, Pastor Paul, since you are in the unique position today of being a first-time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we have a tradition where our first-time guests give a brief summary of their salvation testimony, including what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in and what kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life to draw you to Himself and save you.

And then I'd also like to hear about how you came to discover and embrace the Reformed faith.

Both my parents came to church in class to Redondo Beach, but that was the main...

Great. Well, Pastor Bill has urged me to invite you back in the program so we could dedicate perhaps even an entire broadcast to your own story and how you came to the Reformed faith. And I'd like to do that.

And we, God willing, will have the opportunity after the show is over to set something up. But also, if you could, let our listeners know something about the church that you pastor, Branch of Hope, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Torrance, California.

Tell us something about this church.

Well, we...

Yeah, that's a Pentecostal denomination.

Yeah, exactly. Started by Amy Semple McPherson. Through that vehicle in 1992...

Oh, yeah. You mean we're going to be a sitting priest behind a little curtain? Is that what you mean?

That's what I thought. I'm like, where would we put it? Where are you going to put a confessional? We haven't got any room for it. And, you know, who's been hiding this from me? And so in about 2003, it became an Orthodox...

Great. Well, if anybody wants to find out more about the Branch of Hope in Torrance, California, go to branchofhope .org, branchofhope .org. And, Pastor Bill, if you could briefly just tell our listeners something about the congregation where you are pastoring, the Haven.

Well, let me...

That's right.

That's the Reformed Standards, as Branch of Hope is, with an emphasis on music and message and mission, as Branch of Hope has, and a very clear commitment to the final authority of the Word of God. With some of you out in Suffolk County, Long Island area, Deer Park, it's some...

Well, praise God for that church. And I, as I hinted at in the beginning of the program, I've known Pastor Bill since the late 1980s. We have maintained a friendship ever since. He is one of my longest lasting friendships as a Christian.

In fact, out of anybody, because I really don't have too many friends that are still very close to me who were my friends before I was a Christian, unfortunately. But I do have a couple. But Pastor Bill has maintained a strong relationship with me and has been one of my most encouraging and enthusiastic supporters in my career in radio, starting even before I had my own program, and continuing through the days of Iron Sharpens Iron radio until this day as well.

So I just thank God for you, brother. You've always been there with me and for me through thick and thin and bright days and dark. And I will never be able to thank you enough or God enough for the blessing you've been to me.

Amen. And if anybody wants to look up more information about The Haven, which is the congregation where Pastor Bill Pastor is currently meeting in Bohemia, and hopefully returning soon to Deer Park, Long Island, New York, the website is thehavenli, for longisland .com, thehavenli .com.

Greg L. Bonson’s Friendship, Teaching, and Influence on the Guests

Well, Pastor Bill, tell us how you actually met and formed a friendship with the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson. And I know that you're very grateful for meeting and developing a friendship with him. And some of it has to do with your oldest son, Nathaniel.

So why don't you tell us about this story?

I tried. So it was a casual friendship. It was, I've been a Ben in the early part of 1995, that Dr. Bonson gave a course, a college-level course in philosophy in Brooklyn, in Brooklyn, New York. And at that time, our oldest son, Nathaniel, who was then a John, Nathaniel was really wrestling with a lot of questions.

He had been catechized. He'd been taught. But, you know, at that age, you're wrestling with rejecting the Christian faith. So I contacted Dr. Bonson and said, look, I know this is a college-level course, Friday, I think, like until five in the afternoon.

It's the equivalent of... Now, your listeners need to realize that Greg, at that time, never said... He was just really the most remarkable teacher. And he did this in a way that wasn't condescending.

But he said, Nathaniel, I know you're wrestling with issues about the Christian faith. In awe of Dr. Bonson's health, to just opening up to him again without being... See, Monday, Tuesday, we were driving home, stuck in a typical...

From...

About the Christian... Not darkness, but... Of that... To adjust us... A very satisfied, resting... So I will... I will literally... Not just the lecture material, which was excellent... To a young person and was clearly burnt...

Well, it was in Brooklyn, New York. I've already said this in an earlier edition of this tribute. But it was in Brooklyn, New York, where I met Dr. Bonson. Heard him preach for the first and only time, as far as being live in the audience.

He preached a message on the ascension of Christ. Not something that I have heard a lot of sermons on, even to this day. And I remember being utterly riveted to that message. And then I had the privilege, even though I was not a talk radio host at the time...

The pastor there at Messiah's Congregation in Brooklyn, Steve Schlissel, gave me the privilege. He said, I know you're going to be a talk show host one day. I just know it. So I want you to go into my study and interview Greg Bonson.

And I had the privilege of sitting down with a portable recorder, interviewed Dr. Bonson, and still kicked myself to this day because I lost the tape. But hopefully it will turn up.

And it was probably quite a time for his ministry. It was that Sunday night.

And Pastor Paul, you've already started the story on the tremendous impact of Dr. Bonson's teaching upon your life as a pastor and upon the church that you are privileged to serve as an undershepherd.

But if you could, tell us something a bit more. I don't think that you knew him personally, but obviously his theology, his apologetics, and so on, have had a huge impact on your ministry from what you've already said.

So if you could continue a little bit.

Well, he most certainly did. I didn't know he taught modern... You're accused of... You don't learn. You'll never even... You would never even hear...

And the irony is that most cults actually have dispensational eschatology. You all live something close to it.

I'm really at a place... His ability to take complex... It was very helpful.

Oh yeah, Lutherans.

We weren't on the same page. They had had... Greg immediately gave the... Yes, and everybody... It's so unlike... And then they just start talking. But Greg Bonson, there was no... Listen to him on apologetics.

And now I see where this is amazing. And he still is. I mean...

Amen. And I also want to clarify something that I said to our audience. I didn't mean to be mocking my dispensational friends by mentioning the fact that most cults do seem to have either a dispensational eschatology or something close.

I was just actually stating a fact. But I have many friends, in fact, even heroes who are dispensationalists in the Christian faith, such as Dr. John MacArthur, one of my greatest living heroes of the faith.

So we here at Iron Sherpens Iron Radio, we feel strongly about our beliefs and we speak freely about them. So please don't take this program as like a bashing of dispensationalists. We're just maybe occasionally contrasting the views and so on.

And I do have dispensationalist guests on this program, including Dr. MacArthur. So I just want you to be aware of that, folks. This is not a bash fest of dispensationalism, even though what I said may have sounded cruel.

Listener Questions, Sponsors, and the First Half of the Tribute

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Presuppositional Apologetics and Pastoral Ministry

Welcome back, this is Chris Orns, and if you just tuned us in, this is day number five of our five-day tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson, world-renowned apologist, theologian, philosopher, and debater.

And we have as our guests today, to pay tribute, to continue paying tribute to Dr. Bonson, Pastor Paul Vigiano, and Pastor Bill Shishko. And Pastor Vigiano, I'd like to pick up where we left off during that last segment by introducing, or reintroducing presuppositionalism into the conversation, and specifically, the application of presuppositionalist apologetics to pastoral ministry.

Because that's really the hallmark of Dr. Bonson's theology, and something that he no doubt inherited in part, at least from one of his mentors, Dr. Cornelius Van Till. But if you could.

From a seminary, it kind of knocked me, just as I am impressed by the thing to you that God had to convince you of something, that the Bible tells you, the New Year's Eve party, here you're a pastor. You know, I'm thinking, I appreciate the boldness of the early sentiment here.

I certainly didn't get to go, you know, you said, you know, things about religion. I go, let me ask you this. I go, I know why there are certain things. There's something, you're always right. You were horrified at this.

You know, people like to talk. You find is people apologetic.

And Pastor Bill, if you could also apply it to your life as a pastor.

Yes.

How does the word, how does the word of God find that yourself on the, on the faith commitment to come on my faith commitments? And this is critical, which you realize I'm a Christian starting point on the.

Great. Well, I want to let our listeners know that we are going to be taking listener questions. We already have several waiting to have their questions asked and answered by our guests. So I hope that you're going to wait a little bit more patiently, but we will get to you fairly soon.

God willing. So you can send in your emails to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. C H R I S A R N Z E N at gmail .com. And remember, always give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous, if your question involves a personal and private matter. And we would love to hear from you. So get in line with those who are already waiting. And we'd love to hear from you soon.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages. Oh, and I forgot to mention folks, this is a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio in the middle of our show every day needs a longer break so that they can localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida.

It's a requirement of the FCC that they localize their programming to the location geographically where they are. So while they air their own public service announcements and other local things, we air our globally heard commercials.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Divining Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

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I'm author Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Dan LeBennick of West Hills Baptist Church in Huntington Station, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Reverend Buzz Taylor, author of God's Lawson, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground, Washington, founder of the ministry Christian Resources, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Ryan Galan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.