October 30, 2020 Show with Paul Viggiano & Bill Shishko on “Apologetics & Pastoral Ministry” (Day 5 of a 5-Day Tribute to Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlyle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 30th day of October 2020 and I am thrilled that we are conducting another tribute to the late

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Dr. Greg L. Bonson a world -renowned scholar, theologian, philosopher, apologist, and debater who entered into this earth in 1948 and entered into glory for eternity with Jesus Christ in 1995 and today's specific theme under that heading of a tribute to the late

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Dr. Greg L. Bonson is apologetics and pastoral ministry and we have two guests to discuss that today.

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This is day number five of our five -day tribute that has been taking place all this week starting on Monday to the late

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Dr. Greg L. Bonson. Our two guests to discuss apologetics and pastoral ministry today.

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First of all we have a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor Paul Vigiano of Branch of Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Torrance California and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor Paul Vigiano.

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Well it's great to be here Chris thanks for having me. And we also have a returning guest somebody if you are a regular listener to this program you are certainly familiar with a frequent guest on this program

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Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church which is currently meeting in Bohemia Long Island New York and it's great to have you as a guest once again my dear friend since the late 1980s

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Pastor Bill Shishko. Hey Chris good to be with you again. We have to keep meeting like this.

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Amen. Well Pastor Paul since you are in the unique position today of being a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio we have a tradition where our first -time guests give a brief summary of their salvation testimony including what kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

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Lord raised up in your life to draw you to himself and save you and then I'd also like to hear about how you came to discover and embrace the

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Reformed faith. Of course Chris I was not raised in a

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Christian household both my parents came to faith after I did and as a seven -year -old in Hermosa Beach California for some reason

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I wandered into a church around the block I don't remember why.

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I think I was fascinated with the flannel board cutout that the Sunday school was using and for some reason you know and we know we understand that it's really by the

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Spirit and Grace of God as a seven -year -old I went there for a whole year by myself and I still have the

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Bible they gave me this was 1963 -62 -63

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I still have the Bible they gave me when I turned eight into the next class and then we moved from Hermosa Beach to Redondo Beach which is about two miles but if you're eight it might as well be the moon and so I never went again

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I didn't go to church until I was about 17 and I was in Redondo Beach and a friend of mine's big brother shared a tract with me on being a

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Christian and I read it it resonated and I started going to a

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Presbyterian USA church in Redondo Beach at the age of 17 and then from there you know transitioned into kind of a more

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Reformed understanding of the Christian faith but that was the means by which God brought me into his kingdom.

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Great, well Pastor Bill has urged me to invite you back in the program so we could dedicate perhaps even an entire broadcast to your own story on how you came to the

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Reformed faith and I'd like to do that and we God willing will have the opportunity after the show is over to set something up but also if you could let our listeners know something about the church that you pastor

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Branch of Hope which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Torrance California tell us something about this church.

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Well we were a we're called Branch of Hope because we were a branch of a church here in the

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South Bay of Los Angeles called Hope Chapel which is a four -square church

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I don't know if people if your listeners know that it's what that is yeah that's a Pentecostal denomination yeah exactly started by Amy Semple McPherson Jack Capert would be a big name associated with that denomination and so it's as far as I wouldn't say as far as you possibly get from the

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Reformed faith but they certainly aren't tightly woven together we wouldn't call that denomination a denomination of white faith practice although you know obviously we believe they're brothers and sisters in Christ but that's how our church started in about 1972

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I wasn't a pastor at the time and then I became the pastor in 1990 and I preached my first sermon series

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I preached through John and I picked what I thought would be one of the easiest books to preach through and then

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I decided to preach through Revelation I mean I'm studying John I might as well go through Revelation what could possibly go wrong and so I was preaching through Revelation and I got about six chapters into it before I realized

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I don't really have any idea what I'm talking about here and I stopped in the middle of a sermon and I had confessed to the congregation that I had just quoted a dispensational commentary that I didn't really see

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I didn't I didn't get it I just quoted it because he was the guy that I was reading and at that point we decided we need to re -evaluate who we are and a lot of people weren't terribly happy with that some people were happy with it church got out a little early that day but it was there it was through that vehicle that we had to really examine well who are we as a church

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I mean the one guy thought because I wasn't a pre -millennial dispensationalist

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I must have been a leader of a cult and he started accusing me of being a cult leader and our church being a cult and keep in mind this is about 1992 and if you remember at that in that era there was a church called

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Branch the Branch Davidians oh yeah and so we're okay and you know my last name is

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Viggiano and so they started calling us the Branch Davidians you know

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I'm like that's clever and I got to kind of figure this out and we did have a we had an elders meeting that's what we called them and we didn't think we were a cult because you know we believed in the the deity of Christ and the

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Trinity and the verbal canary you know inspiration of Scripture and so forth but I did

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I asked the elders like you know we're being accused of being a cult how do we know we're not who are we and you know in terms of Christian history and so forth and one of our elder was he was kind of the most knowledgeable and he goes well maybe we should become confessional and I got to I'm gonna tell you

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Chris I didn't even know what he was talking about I was a pastor and I didn't know what it meant to be confessional on and I thought you mean we're gonna be seeing priests behind a little curtain is that what you mean where would we put it we're gonna put a confessional we have got any room for you know and so somebody recommended

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GI Williamson's commentary on the Westminster Confession I started reading that and I just felt like I felt like somebody had just splashed me with fresh water and I'm like I would who's been hiding this from me and just I'm gonna try to make this it's a waste longer story but if I can make it short and at that point we started embracing the

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Westminster Confession and the one thing we needed to do in order to be consistent with the confession was become connectional you know find find a denomination that we'd have that kind of accountability and so forth and that's where we kind of locked horns with the blessing of Greg Bonson because at the time

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Greg Bonson was probably the most published Orthodox Presbyterian pastor and so as we're looking at potential denominations to join well the

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PCA was a lot bigger than the OPC but we started reading Greg Bonson and he was probably the number one reason in terms of earthly maneuvering in Providence that our church actually joined the

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Orthodox Church great so in about 2003 our whole church became an

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church great well if anybody wants to find out more about the branch of hope in Torrance California go to branch of hope org branch of hope org and a pastor bill if you could briefly just tell our listeners something about the congregation where you are pastoring the haven right we just have a

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PS I've had the privilege of preaching at branch of hope OPC out in Torrance California I have and I preached in a lot of Orthodox Presbyterian churches and others

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I have never felt as at home in that congregation a lot of reasons for that but I encourage your listeners if you're anywhere out near the

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Torrance California area make the make the trip to worship at branch of hope OPC and it's interesting

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Chris you got the East Coast and the West Coast represented for this Graham probably the two most entrenched secular areas where doctrinal liberalism has eroded so many things right that's quite fascinating so the haven is a haven is was a mission church of the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church as of Sunday November 1st it will be what's called a new and separate congregation of the

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OPC we a church that's committed to the reformed standards as branch of hope is with an emphasis on music and message and mission as branch of hope has and a very clear commitment to the final authority of the

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Word of God with some examples that we'll be giving in the program today but if you're out in Suffolk County Long Island area

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God willing we'll be back in Deer Park at some point which is where we started right now we're meeting at the

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OPC in Bohemia which is 906 Church Street in Bohemia and we meet at 1 o 'clock in the afternoon well praise

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God for that church and I as I hinted at in the beginning of the program I've known pastor

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Bill since the late 1980s we have maintained a friendship ever since he is one of my longest lasting friendships as a

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Christian in fact out of anybody because I really don't have too many friends that are still very close to me who were my friends before I was a

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Christian unfortunately but do have a couple but but pastor Bill has maintained a strong relationship with me and has been one of my most encouraging and enthusiastic supporters in my career in radio starting even before I had my own program and continuing through the days of Iron Sherpins Iron radio until this day as well so I just thank

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God for you brother you've always been there with me and for me through thick and thin and bright days and dark and I will never be able to thank you enough or God enough for the blessing you've been to me.

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Chris the feeling is very much mutual I thank the Lord for you and for the program and I so appreciate the fact you've taken this whole week to feature the material of Dr.

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Bonson because his uncompromising commitment to the final authority of the

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Word of God especially as it bears on defending the faith that is exactly where you stand with Iron Sherpins Iron so thankful to be working with you generally and specifically on this program.

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Amen and for anybody who wants to look up more information about The Haven which is the congregation where Pastor Bill Pastor is currently meeting in Bohemia and hopefully returning soon to Deer Park Long Island New York the website is thehavenli for longisland .com

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thehavenli .com Well Pastor Bill tell us how you actually met and formed a friendship with the late

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Dr. Greg L. Bonson and I know that you're very grateful for meeting and developing a friendship with him and some of it has to do with your oldest son

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Nathaniel so why don't you tell us about this story. Yeah it's hard for me Chris to tell this without being maybe rather uncharacteristically non -Presbyterian in my emotions over it but I tried to I had read

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Dr. Bonson's material when I was in seminary which is 1976 to 79 and then when

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I came into the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in 1981 Greg was a minister out in the west coast at the study center that was out there.

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I don't know actually when I met him but we were on the phone we would correspond this was pre -email and Greg was amazing with being able to send out letters so it was a casual friendship that we had and then it was

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I believe Chris 1994 Dr. Bonson died in 1995 it may even have been in the early part of 1995 that Dr.

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Bonson gave a course college -level course in philosophy in Brooklyn in Brooklyn New York and at that time our oldest son

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Nathaniel who was then a junior in high school we were we were homeschooling him. Nathaniel was really wrestling with a lot of questions about the

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Christian faith he had been catechized he'd been taught but you know at that age you're wrestling with worldview issues and it wasn't rejecting the

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Christian faith it just there things just didn't seem to connect for him so I contacted

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Dr. Bonson and said look I know this is a college level course but our sons in a junior in high school he's a smart kid we may we enroll him in this class it was it was a five it was a

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Monday through Friday I think like nine in the morning until five in the afternoon with breaks class it was it was equivalent of I think maybe a two -semester course in philosophy which was of course

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Dr. Bonson's expertise so Greg asked some questions and said now I know you and could imagine

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Nathaniel's been well taught have him come along I look forward to having him in the class now your listeners need to realize that Dr.

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Bonson had had heart issues I mean spiritual heart issues but physical heart issues from his youth his health was always borderline if there was any man

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I knew of ministered out of weakness it was Dr. Greg Bonson which makes even all the more amazing the output this man had so we trek into Brooklyn every day from Long Island Monday through Friday and Greg at that time really needed at his break he needed to rest he needed to I mean when

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Greg taught he it's hard to describe I have never sat under a teacher who was clearer who could take the most abstract concepts and make them concrete without being simplistic he was just really the most remarkable teacher under whom

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I ever had the privilege of sitting and of course Nathaniel was fascinated with this with this teacher and the material and Greg consummate teacher at every break would or at least one of the breaks during the day would would make it a point even though he needed his rest he would make it a point to talk with Nathaniel and he did this in a way that wasn't condescending but he said

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Nathaniel I know you're wrestling with issues about the Christian faith was this clear was this helpful do you have other questions and of course

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Nathaniel went from being in awe and wanting to be respectful of Dr.

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Bonson's health to just opening up to him with some of the questions he had Greg was a magnificent listener and could very concisely again without being simplistic answer the questions that they all had they all didn't say much actually

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Monday Tuesday and Wednesday he was processing things Thursday of that week when we were driving home stuck in a typical traffic jam going east from Brooklyn to Long Island I asked

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Nathaniel how he was doing he said dad the Christian faith makes sense to me I see it I get it now and the lights went on for him

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I really believe that was the time at which the Lord regenerated Nathaniel I don't know that for sure but but at least that was the time he went from from confusion about the

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Christian faith or maybe relative not darkness but he but he but he went from questioning how's that to adjust us a very satisfied resting in Jesus and so I will

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I will literally be eternally thankful to Dr. Bonson for that ministry that he gave that week not not just the lecture material which was excellent but his pastor's heart it reached out to a young person and was clearly burdened that whatever questions he had as best as Greg could could answer them would be answered during that week so I just and I'm sure

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Chris there's many others who can give similar testimonies to how dr.

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Bonson's teaching impacted them well it was in Brooklyn New York I've already said this in an earlier edition of this tribute but it was in Brooklyn New York where I met dr.

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Bonson heard him preach for the first and only time as far as being live in the audience he preached a message on the ascension of Christ not something that I have heard a lot of sermons on even to this day and I remember being utterly riveted to that message and then

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I had the privilege even though I was not a talk radio host at the time the pastor there at Messiah's congregation in Brooklyn Steve Schlissel gave me the privilege he said

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I know you're gonna be a talk show host one day I just know it so I want you to go into my study and interview Greg Bonson and I had the privilege of sitting down with a portable recorder interviewed dr.

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Bonson and still kicked myself to this day because I lost the tape but hopefully it will turn up it was probably it was probably

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Chris that same weekend which was quite a quite a time for his ministry it was that Sunday night that he preached in Franklin Square and this is after a grueling week by a man that had health issues

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I mean he didn't he I believe he died about nine or ten months later but he preached in Franklin Square from Proverbs and Lennox's favorite text don't answer a fool according to his folly lest you be like him but answer a fool as his folly deserves lest he be wise in his own eyes and he preached his preaching was very much teaching oriented

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I believe he preached for over an hour and you could have heard a pin drop and afterwards people just said they had never heard a message that made clearer to them how you present how you defend the

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Christian faith to others I can't overstate what a masterful teacher and preacher dr.

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Bonson was and pastor Paul you've already started the story on the tremendous impact of dr.

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Bonson's teaching upon your life as a pastor and upon the church that you are privileged to serve as an undershepherd but if you could tell us something a bit more

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I don't think that you knew him personally but obviously his his theology his apologetics and so on have had a huge impact on your ministry from what you've already said so if you could continue a little bit well he most certainly did and it it is one of my you know regrets that you know our church is 45 minutes away from where his church was in Costa Mesa and of course

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I didn't know that he was ill he was fairly young I didn't make a lot of effort to you know to get together with him we weren't in the

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OPC at the time so so we didn't have personal we'd have a personal relationship we didn't know each other but now going back to my story though no here we are church that is transitioning from you know a kind of a hybrid

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Pentecostal dispensational modern Western evangelical church into these reformed waters that put everybody's eyebrows up kind of go you know you're accused of being a cult and you're going down this road and one of the big things was eschatology because quite frankly you you don't learn

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I attended five different seminary Chris and in four of them you'll never even you would never even hear that there's another option other than the pre -millennial dispensational option so the idea that there's an all -millennial or a post -millennial way to look at eschatology made it even worse people are coupling us with all these cults out there and so and the irony is that most cults actually have dispensational eschatology will live something close to it right yeah yeah but you know a lot of people it was just strange in their ears and I'm and I'm really at a place where I'm I'm trying to figure it out yet I'm the pastor of the church and so now

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I have in my hands books by Greg Bonson I have access to you know tapes you know in those days there are little cassette tapes right and I'm listening to him constantly to kind of help me through this very kind of thorny season in my life theologically in our church's life theologically and as we're making this transition and so I also and I realized this guy is a treasure and it's like Bill was saying his ability to take complex and not make them not dumping them down but make them comprehensible accessible and and graspable was astonishing and one of the reasons

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I think was his lack of being political he was the least political and when

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I say political I mean political in the negative sense I mean he was very active in terms of obviously with his understanding of Christ and culture but you would ask him a question and he would give you the yes or no answer right up front

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I was taking your class at one seminary a dispensational seminary and my professors were

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Bob and Gretchen Passantino I don't know what that those names ring a bell oh yeah pretty well Lutherans and yeah and Bob has gone to be with the

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Lord but we weren't on the same page at all but they had they had had Greg Bonson come in one day and not when

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I was there but to just kind of field questions in this in this class and one of the questions was is

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God are you saying that God is the first cause of evil and of course you know most people would dance around that for a little bit and but not dr.

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Bonson dr. Bonson immediately gave the yes or no answer if his answer was yes and everybody in the classroom you know exhaled and everything and then he goes on to explain why that makes sense and why first cause is not the same as author and so forth but you know it's so unlike the debates that we see today you know where somebody is asked a question and I think you know the candidate the potential you know presidential nominee when when somebody asks a question like you do you ban do you want to ban fracking or can you give us your plan for immigration the candidate all the candidate hears is oh

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I guess it's my turn to talk and then they just start talking but Greg Bonson would answer the question he was so unambiguous there was no calculated ambiguity and so when

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I'm looking at okay how am I going to navigate through these eschatological waters and I have a degree in apologetics myself but it was from a very evidential seminary and yet I saw the weaknesses in that and then but I couldn't really articulate them but then you listen to him on apologetics and you're like going oh oh

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I I see where the weakness is and now I see where the strength is and so even though we never met although his son

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John and their family became members of our church before they moved out of the area so I got to know him pretty well even though Greg and I never met he probably mentored me more than any other individual that I could think of in terms of just preparing me to be a pastor of a reformed church at a time and in a place where sound thinking sound theology and just keep in the culture itself the ability to think clearly has taken a big hiccup and so Bonson has been he was just amazing and he still is

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I mean to this day I access him things that I've heard before I listened to him over and over again amen and I also want to clarify something that I said to our audience

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I didn't mean to be mocking my dispensational friends by mentioning the fact that most cults do seem to have either a dispensational eschatology or something close so I was just actually stating a fact but I have many friends in fact even heroes who are dispensationalists in the

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Christian faith such as dr. John MacArthur one of my greatest living heroes of the faith and so we here at iron sharp radio we feel strongly about our beliefs and we speak freely about them so please don't take this program as like a bashing of dispensationalist we're just maybe occasionally contrasting the views and so on and I do have dispensationalist guests on this program including dr.

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MacArthur so I just wanted you to be aware of that folks this is not a bash fest of dispensationalism even though what

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I said may have sounded cruel but we are going to our first station break right now and if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own there will be an opportunity at some point in the second half of the program for my guests to field questions from you you could send in those questions to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com and as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your own past or on a theological issue you're asking about or something like that we would understand that you would want to remain anonymous but other than that if it's just a general question please give us your first name city and state of residence and country of residence we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

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40:02

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

40:16

that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is

40:21

Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always welcome back this is

40:35

Chris Orns and if you just tuned us in this is day number five of our five -day tribute to the late

40:41

Dr. Greg L. Bonson world -renowned apologist theologian philosopher and debater and we have as our guests today to pay tribute to continue paying tribute to Dr.

40:54

Bonson Pastor Paul Vigiano and Pastor Bill Shishko and Pastor Vigiano I'd like to pick up where we left off during that last segment by introducing or reintroducing a presuppositionalism into the conversation and specifically the application of presuppositionalist apologetics to pastoral ministry if because that's really the hallmark of Dr.

41:26

Bonson's theology and something that he no doubt inherited in part at least from one of his mentors

41:36

Dr. Cornelius Mantill but if you could yeah no

41:43

I gladly and like I mentioned you know I got a degree in apologetics from a seminary that was very committed to evidentialism and I I'm not against evidence of course

41:54

I'm not against the classical proofs for the existence of God and what have you but when

42:02

I was hit with Dr. Bonson's approach in terms of presuppositional apologetics it kind of knocked me over in terms of in a way the simplicity of it in your interaction with with others because what we would do you know

42:22

Allah things like evidence that demands a verdict is we would just throw a bag of evidence on the table and for some people that's compelling but other people would be like well

42:34

I got my own bag of evidence and they throw it on the table and then you're like well wait I'll be back with another bag and you throw your bag on and that goes on kind of ad nauseum and you go back and forth back and forth and that really can go on forever and as much as I am impressed by the you know the historic kind of theological proofs

42:51

I don't think they're actually proofs I think they are I think they're good arguments I think they have some weight to them but listening to not only

43:01

Dr. Bonson's instruction on presuppositional apologetics but watching his example of it are well listening really to his example in as many debates was priceless and part of it is is the way he would deconstruct opposing worldviews and you know what they would call the the impossibility of the contrary so dr.

43:28

Bonson didn't seem in his presuppositional ism all that concerned with proving to you that God exists because his argument at least his understanding he had the cheat sheet and the cheat sheet was

43:40

I already know that you know God is I'm not going to try to convince you of something that the

43:46

Bible tells me you already know what I'm going to do is I'm going to remove you from this corner that you've become comfortable in in terms of the way you're approaching your life and so let me it might be easiest

44:02

Chris for you for me to give like an example of how this worked one time my wife and I were invited to a party

44:09

I think it was a New Year's Eve party or something it was not a Christian event and you know the couple that invited us were

44:16

Christians but half the people there weren't I think they were members of my wife's health club or something and I'm sitting at the sitting on the couch and my wife is sitting across by the fireplace and there was a man and his wife he was in a chair and his wife was next to me on the couch and you could tell they were like young upwardly mobile

44:36

SoCal people you know they successful business oriented and great shape and so forth and his wife who was a tiger

44:44

I mean just a very aggressive woman she looks at me and she goes so you're your gent husband

44:49

I'm like yes it's like I hear you're a pastor I'm like yes she was you know my husband and I we hate religion so I'm like all right this is the beginning of an interesting evening so I didn't

45:02

I have to say deep down I'm trying not to laugh but I'm thinking I appreciate the boldness of the early sentiment here and I didn't respond right away

45:12

I certainly didn't get offended but I waited a little while and I'm like okay how am

45:18

I going to implement dr. Bonson's method here so I asked her after a few minutes

45:24

I go you know you said you and your husband hate religion I'll tell you something I had there are things about religion

45:30

I hate myself I mean you said you hate organized religion and I made a little joke you know you might like our church we're not very organized you know just trying to lighten things up a little bit and I go but let me ask you this

45:42

I go I know why there are certain things about religion that I hate I'm wondering what do you access to determine what you're gonna hate about religion like what is your starting point and she looked at her husband and they kind of made eye contact and their answer was something along the lines of I guess it was the way my parents raised me so I said so were your parents always right

46:13

I'm like well no no no they were wrong a lot I'm like so there's something you're accessing to determine whether or not your parents are right now

46:22

I think Chris you could see where this is going now I'm gonna I'm sharing this with you in 90 seconds this went on for about two and a half hours they said well maybe it's the culture

46:32

I go well do you think the culture is always right and I'm like well no of course the culture

46:37

I guess so what is your kind of ethical starting point you're you know the way we would say it is what is your what is your you know epistemological presupposition are your ethical presupposition where do you begin and what

46:52

I found was they were horrified at the notion that they don't really have a leg to stand on they they had no foundation they couldn't tell me just what it was they were reaching for to determine why it was valid for them to hate religion and at the end of the evening they were you know they said you know what we should go out to dinner some night and so we're still waiting for that to materialize but that type of thing

47:23

I think dr. Boston was great at and that is you ask a question and genuinely listen because you know people like to talk and you listen to what they have to say and then you ask them why does that make sense and why does that make sense and what you find is people are not what we call epistemologically self -conscious they don't know why they know the things they know they don't know why they believe they believe and I have to say that in terms of the conversation is really valuable in terms of getting them to finally and Chris this has happened for them to say okay if that's not true then what if it's almost like the

48:08

Philippian jailer at that point going well what must I do to be saved you know I clearly I don't have the answer so what is the answer and now you move from apologetic to the gospel which is where you really always want to go anyway and so that has been you know at a very basic level something that has been very valuable in terms of dr.

48:30

Boston's approach a lot presuppositional apologetic and pastor bill if you could also apply it to your life as a pastor well so many ways to answer yeah

48:41

I think well first but the first thing I'd say is when we presuppositional apologetics that goes over people's heads

48:51

I love Eli Ayala's use of the language revealed apologetics yes how does the work how does the

48:57

Word of God tell us the Word of God is to be defended or presented so that that's number one maybe after you got a break coming up it's kind of long maybe afterwards

49:08

I give you a specific illustration but I have found very helpful as a pastor building on what pastor

49:15

Vigiano said I always try to put myself on I call it a faith commitments instead of presuppositions of the people that I'm dealing with when people say that they don't believe anything also that you do you have a faith commitment not to believe anything and and that's really important I mean everyone's religious everyone has faith commitments and so I will listen long enough in order to to find that that there's internal contradictions in what people with they'll say not non -believing faith commitments have and again

49:50

I'll give an example a bit later but you you must listen to what people say and put yourself on the on the faith commitments or the religious floorboards if you will of the people you're speaking with and then you begin to ask them questions that will make them realize they really don't have a basis for saying what they say then

50:13

I ask them to come on my faith commitments and this is critical you don't say there's some neutral area in which we're both looking at things neutrally that's not the case

50:26

I say no I usually say well what you need to realize I'm a Christian I'm committed to Jesus Christ as Lord he is the way the truth and the life and so he is not only my starting point for dealing with with everything but but his word that that is self -authenticating answers questions and then

50:45

I'll show them on the on my on on a Christian faith commitments how the kinds of questions that have come up are answered and are answered in a way that's satisfactory

50:56

I mean that that's kind of a that's kind of a big picture I have to after your break that I know is coming up I like to give you an illustration or two of that great well

51:06

I want to let our listeners know that we are going to be taking listener questions we already have several waiting to have their questions asked and answered by our guests

51:18

I hope that you're going to wait a little bit more patiently but we will get to you fairly soon God willing so you can send in your emails to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

51:28

CHRIS ARNZEN at gmail .com and remember always give us at least your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

51:41

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we would love to hear from you so get in line with those who are already waiting and we'd love to hear from you soon that's

51:55

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away

52:01

God willing we're going to be right back after these messages oh and I forgot to mention folks this is a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio in the middle of our show every day needs a longer break so that they can localize

52:17

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to Lake City Florida it's a requirement of the FCC that they localize their programming to the location geographically where they are so while they air their own public service announcements and other local things we air our globally heard commercials so I'm asking you please to use this time wisely write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them and we're at the very least reach out to them to thank them for sponsoring this show if you do love the show and remember if you keep our advertisers happy they are more than likely going to remain our advertisers and we subsequently will more than likely then remain on the air for a longer future because we absolutely positively depend upon our advertisers to exist the financial support that those ad campaigns provide is essential to the existence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio so please try to keep our advertisers happy and also send in questions to Paul Figiano and Bill Shishko on the late

53:25

Greg L. Bonson on reform theology in general on presuppositionalism and anything else connected to our discussion today that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

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that's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Chris Arnsen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine my trusted source for news from a

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send in questions to Paul Vigiano and Bill Shishko, who are our guests today, paying tribute to the late

01:15:15

Dr. Greg L. Bonson, and Pastor Bill, you wanted to continue on how you have applied presuppositional apologetics, something that Dr.

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Bonson had mastered, and continue on with that thread of thought.

01:15:33

Yeah, and let me mention a book, Chris, this week we're thankful you're promoting what's called the

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A -H -N as in no, S as in Sam, E -N as in no,

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Dr. Greg Bonson. We're promoting the Bonson Project, which is a way of getting material that prior to now people had to pay to get, to make it all available for free on the internet.

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It's a work in process. You can go to the Bonson Project, just Google the Bonson Project, and you will see what's available now and be checking, because literally every week more material will be coming.

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A book, it's in print now, it will eventually be available for free, but Dr.

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It is a primer for defending the faith biblically. We used it when I was a pastor of the

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But yeah, here's an example. I was in a fruit stand actually one

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It shows me that there's a little bit of kindness left in the world. Now, just let me add this.

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When we talk about a person resonating with kindness, remember that kindness has its origin in God.

01:17:25

Kindness is actually meaningless on a non -Christian worldview. But anyway, she said, I'm thankful there's a little kindness in the world.

01:17:32

And I said, well, ma 'am, I'm a Christian, and I serve a kind God, and I want to represent

01:17:38

Him in the world. And she grimaced and looked at me and said,

01:17:43

I cannot believe in God because I have relatives who were killed in the

01:17:48

Holocaust. And that, you don't want to respond viscerally to that.

01:17:55

That's a painful, horribly painful subject, and I acknowledge it. I said, ma 'am, it breaks my heart.

01:18:01

I know of others who've lost relatives in the Holocaust. I'm so sad to hear about that, and I may have asked her a couple questions about it,

01:18:08

I don't know. But I said, do you mind if I ask you a question? And again, as Pastor Vigiano had mentioned, it's very important to ask questions in our evangelism, drawing out what people believe.

01:18:20

And she said, sure, what's your question? And I said, well, I really want to be sensitive to what you've faced, but if, in fact, there is no evil, if, in fact, there is no

01:18:32

God, why was the Holocaust wrong? And another grimaced expression, and she thought a moment, she said,

01:18:42

I have never thought about that. And I said, well, you should, because your moral revulsion at the

01:18:49

Holocaust, which I share, really assumes the God that you tell me you don't believe in, because He is a

01:18:56

God who hates evil. And the reason why we have a moral revulsion at it is because of God.

01:19:03

Now, that brings in the whole issue of the problem of evil, which I didn't have time to get into by then. She was at the register, and I even offered to give her a ride, and she said, no, that wasn't necessary.

01:19:14

Now, I didn't have time to say much more, but at least the language is, you're putting a pebble in somebody's shoe to let them think about things, and you're praying that God will water that.

01:19:25

But there's an example, Chris, of how, you know, I'm not going to throw out evidences to show that God is good.

01:19:34

That would have meant nothing to her. She needed to realize that, technically, her atheism presupposed

01:19:42

Christian theism. Her denial of God's existence presupposed, in that statement, that there is a

01:19:49

God who is a God who does things that are morally right, and therefore, against that, there's evil in the world.

01:19:58

But that's kind of one example of how, and there's so many you could give, of how presuppositional apologetics is applied, as Greg Bonson would put it, getting down and dirty right on the street level with people.

01:20:12

You know, I can remember clearly when I arranged a debate between our mutual friend,

01:20:19

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and the man who was, at the time, the president of American Atheists, the organization founded by Madeleine Murray O 'Hare.

01:20:34

And during this debate, Dr. White got David Silverman to admit that the only way that he could determine what is right and wrong was by what the majority of any given culture, in any given geographical area, at any given time, believed.

01:20:57

So he got him to admit that, and so Dr.

01:21:03

White said right there on the stage, so then, if you were being marched through the death camp known as Auschwitz, and David Silverman, by the way, is an ethnically

01:21:14

Jewish atheist, you were being marched through the death camp of Auschwitz. The most you could say in protest is that I find this personally offensive?

01:21:23

And David Silverman said, yes. He actually admitted to that. Yeah, to which, quite frankly, the

01:21:32

Nazi death camp doctors would have responded, they regard that, given their evolutionary presuppositions, as morally superior.

01:21:42

See, there's the problem when we start dealing with people's personal opinions or their feelings about things.

01:21:52

Yeah. Well, I think it's time that we should take some of our listener questions.

01:22:00

This is kind of reflective of something that Paul said earlier.

01:22:08

I'm looking for the question right now. I had it in front of me just a moment ago. It was from our friend, a very faithful listener to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and not only a faithful listener, but a very generous financial supporter of this program.

01:22:23

His name is Grady, and he is from Asheboro, North Carolina. And Grady asks,

01:22:33

I have to enlarge Grady's email because it's microscopic. Here it is.

01:22:38

Greetings, brothers. I know Dr. Bonson was post -Mill, but how did he get to that eschatological view?

01:22:45

Did he start pre -Mill and eventually come to that view? And so, Paul, maybe you could start, because I know that was your journey, but was that Dr.

01:22:54

Bonson's journey? Well, actually, Bill might know better than I, because the only

01:23:02

Greg Bonson that I was ever exposed to was a post -Millennial Greg Bonson, and I think his history was very much in the

01:23:11

Reformed faith, and so I'm guessing he was somewhere between all -Mill and post -Mill the whole time, but I don't know the answer to that question.

01:23:21

I don't know if he was ever a pre -Millennialist. Maybe Bill, Pastor Shishko, might know better than I.

01:23:27

Yeah, I can't answer the question, Chris. I think Roger Wagner, who was probably Greg's closest earthly friend, would be the one to answer that.

01:23:36

And I'm not being facetious when I say this, although it's going to sound, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, either.

01:23:42

Greg was so radically committed to the final authority of the

01:23:47

Bible that I don't think he could come to any other conclusion when you're dealing with, for example, and I don't want to program, it's not about post -Millennialism, but when you're dealing with the parable of the mustard seed, or the parable of the leaven, or Daniel's account of the little stone that dashes the statue, the feet of the statue, and it crushes, and it becomes a great mountain filling the earth,

01:24:15

I think certainly those things would drive Greg to what we know of as a post -Millennial view.

01:24:21

The other is that presuppositional apologetics is not defensive, and this is extremely important when

01:24:29

Jesus says that the gates of hell will not prevail against the

01:24:34

Church, that the gates are defensive, and the Church is not offensive, meaning mean, but it is moving forward.

01:24:44

And presuppositional apologetics is very much that.

01:24:50

It is bringing every single thought captive to the obedience of the

01:24:55

Lord Jesus Christ, and that text in 2 Corinthians is in the context of actually spiritual warfare.

01:25:02

So I'm not sure whether Greg came to a post -Millennial conviction along the way.

01:25:09

He certainly was post -Mill, and very responsibly so in the way he presented it, but I think he was driven to that conclusion by the weight of the biblical data.

01:25:20

Well, thank you so much, Grady, for being a faithful listener and sending in those excellent questions from time to time.

01:25:30

And you have actually won a free book, and that book is

01:25:38

Van Til's Apologetic, Readings and Analysis by the late Dr.

01:25:44

Greg L. Bonson. And we thank PNR Publishing for providing us with copies of this book to give away this week.

01:25:53

And if you want to find out more about PNR Publishing and this book in particular, go to prpbooks .com.

01:26:01

And also, cvbbs .com,

01:26:06

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, will actually be physically shipping that book out to you. So please make sure we have your full mailing address in Asheboro, North Carolina.

01:26:16

Let's see, we have another listener question. And the listener question is, and I'm sorry, this is from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York.

01:26:30

Bobby says, I know that sometimes people in all camps, whether they are

01:26:36

Reformed, whether they are Dispensational, whether they are Calvinist, whether they are Arminian, whether they are

01:26:41

Pentecostal or Charismatic, or whether they are Cessationist, they contend to be very sectarian and mean -spirited and denounce all others outside of their specific camps as lost or as ignorant and as troublemakers, and we could go on and on with the negative descriptions.

01:27:03

How is Dr. Bonson in regard to those in the Body of Christ with whom he disagreed?

01:27:13

Paul, you want to answer that? You know, that's a great question.

01:27:19

That's a great question, because I went and taught at a seminary in China, and one of the things

01:27:27

I taught there was Westminster Confession, and obviously that's very Calvinistic, and you know,

01:27:33

I got home, I was getting emails, the questions continued to this very day, and one of the things that came up was, well, should we determine that if somebody's not a

01:27:44

Calvinist, that they're not a Christian? And I was kind of horrified at that thought, and it's my very

01:27:51

Calvinism that allows me to regard people who have not somehow ascended to some level of theological accuracy to recognize that they very well may be born again, because they're not saved by their theological accuracy, they're saved by the blood of Christ, and whatever theological accuracy they have is a result of regeneration.

01:28:14

It's a result of being born again, not something that you acquire salvation with.

01:28:20

And I think Dr. Bonson would have known that better than anybody, yet I would say that I felt like early on, because the guy was a genius.

01:28:31

I mean, he was a towering intellect, and as a teenager in his 20s, and he was from Southern California, and so I know people who knew him, and there are still people who were wounded by him as a young man pulling a sword out and slashing away.

01:28:50

But as he got older, and he didn't live very old, so, you know, the 46, 47 -year -old

01:28:56

Greg Bonson, who in my book is still pretty young, as he got older, you really saw him temper his passions and become a much more tender shepherd than, you know, young, restless, and reformed, and you know, this kind of thing.

01:29:13

And so I think that there was a general graciousness that he had, but it didn't always come out necessarily, because he was very forthright in the way he would answer questions.

01:29:27

You know, he wasn't going to play a game, he was going to give you the answer. But I think he got better and better, as hopefully we all do, you know, as we get older.

01:29:36

Yeah, I would say the same thing, Chris. If you disagreed with Dr.

01:29:45

Bonson on something, and you wanted to go in the ring with him, you lose in the first round.

01:29:51

And I think in many ways that brought out the worst in him.

01:29:59

This is a personal reflection. I almost believe this is one of the reasons why the

01:30:05

Lord took Dr. Bonson home. It's amazing, he died at age 47, and the corpus of his material is unbelievable.

01:30:12

But he could be off -putting just because he was so brilliant.

01:30:19

And you've got to realize, Dr. Bonson was probably the greatest debater of the latter part of the 20th century.

01:30:26

I mean, put aside for just a minute the Christian convictions, I really can't, but just in terms of his debate skills, he was absolutely remarkable.

01:30:36

Listen to his debates. But Pastor Vigiano is right. When it came to discipling people, and I'll give an illustration,

01:30:45

Dr. Bonson was patient, he listened to people. Again, if you wanted to be adversarial with him, forget it, you're done.

01:30:53

But somebody just has got questions. He was just a wonderful patient teacher.

01:30:59

Now, let me give an anecdote here. Probably the elephant in the room with Dr.

01:31:05

Bonson is the book that he wrote in, I think, the early 1970s called

01:31:11

Theonomy, in which he argued for the exhaustive application of the

01:31:17

Mosaic Law given to Israel in the Old Covenant, and applying that to the state today.

01:31:25

And that will be part of Dr. Bonson's work that will be available. Maybe some other time,

01:31:32

Chris, when you deal with it, there's a background to that book that helps understand it. But in my last talk with Dr.

01:31:39

Bonson, when I was actually driving him to the motel he stayed in before he flew from New York City back to California, I talked with him a bit about what

01:31:49

I regard as kind of a standard Reformed view, that there are principles of the

01:31:56

Mosaic Law, something often called the general equity of it, that apply always in relation to moral law, and how that differed with his theonomy.

01:32:07

We chatted about that, but this is what he said. It's almost exact words. He said,

01:32:12

Bill, put it this way, my concern is to see disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ made.

01:32:18

I want to see people following Jesus as Savior and Lord. That's what you do in ministry.

01:32:24

He said, if we ever get around to theonomy, I'll talk with him about it. And I think that's the most seasoned

01:32:31

Greg Bonson when it comes to not just the theonomy issue, but his whole view.

01:32:36

He was passionate about seeing disciples of Christ made, but disciples of Christ are going to follow

01:32:44

Jesus as Lord in the way they think as well as the way they act. That's kind of Dr.

01:32:49

Bonson, I think, in a nutshell. Well, Bobby, guess what? You have won the final copy that we were given to give away of Van Till's Apologetic by Dr.

01:33:01

Greg L. Bonson. It's quite a large book. In fact, it's 800 pages, 800 page hardback.

01:33:12

So, you have been very blessed today indeed, and make sure that we have your full mailing address in Hartsdale, New York, so that cvbbs .com,

01:33:20

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that book out to you. And keep in mind, folks, whenever we have an author on, please always try to purchase the books either from cvbbs .com

01:33:35

or from solid -ground -books .com, because those two publishers, actually those two book ministries,

01:33:45

I should say, sponsor this program. cvbbs .com is not a publisher, so you could even purchase solid -ground

01:33:54

Christian books, titles from them, but solid -ground -books .com is indeed a publisher, so please try to purchase from them as much as possible.

01:34:05

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks, the only presuppositionalists

01:34:13

I have ever met or heard of are theologically reformed. Are there any Arminians of note that claim to be presuppositionalists and they're apologetic as well?

01:34:24

And you want to pick that up first, Paul, since Bill had the last word last time? Yeah, that's a good question.

01:34:33

I am not aware of, let me just answer it this way, presuppositional apologetics tends to comport with a reformed

01:34:44

Calvinistic understanding of the human heart. And the reason

01:34:50

I say that is because we don't think that I can somehow argue somebody into the kingdom of God.

01:34:59

That if I give you enough evidence, I think Greg Bonson's primary mentor,

01:35:07

Van Til, says something along the lines of giving evidence to an unbeliever is like handing material to a man standing next to a bottomless pit.

01:35:17

And as you hand it to him, he just throws it in the bottomless pit. This idea that somehow you're going to be able to talk somebody into the kingdom of God with enough evidence is ignoring the fact that man's heart will continually suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

01:35:35

And so I would guess, for that reason, that people who tend to be more Calvinistic in their kind of anthropology, human anthropology, biblical anthropology, their understanding of the human nature, would lean more toward a presuppositional approach to apologetics, where if you think somebody, you know, can, on their own, make that right decision, if there's a glimmer in there, then the more evidential approach tends to comport with that view.

01:36:12

So I would say your observation is probably pretty accurate. Yeah, I would agree,

01:36:18

Chris. An Arminian would have to be really, if he's aware of what he's dealing with or she's dealing with, with presuppositional apologetics, would have to be incredibly inconsistent, because presuppositional apologetics assumes the sovereignty of God over all things, which

01:36:36

Arminianism does not. But that's a fascinating question.

01:36:42

As doctrinally evangelicalism in America, at least, is in foment,

01:36:50

I would tend to think that even among those who aren't in a Reformed viewpoint, or holding a

01:36:57

Reformed viewpoint, it's precisely because of the biblical character of Dr.

01:37:02

Bonson's material that there are going to be many people not from Reformed backgrounds who will come in through that door to the

01:37:10

Reformed faith. Well, Susan Margaret, you've won a different book, and it's the last copy that we have to give away this week as well,

01:37:21

Against All Opposition, Defending the Christian Worldview, by Greg L. Bonson, published by American Vision.

01:37:28

This is a series of lectures that have been transcribed into written form by Greg L.

01:37:36

Bonson, and we thank American Vision for providing us the copies that we've been giving away for free, and I specifically thank my friend

01:37:44

Gary DeMar for offering them. And if you want more information about this book, AmericanVision .org,

01:37:50

AmericanVision .org, make sure, Susan Margaret, that you send us your full mailing address in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, so that CVVBS .com

01:38:02

can ship that out to you. That's CVVBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, so look for that name on the envelope or the package in your mail,

01:38:12

CVVBS .com. We're going to our final break right now. It's going to be much more brief than the last two breaks.

01:38:18

If you do have questions, please send them immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

01:38:25

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, after these messages. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, a trusted source for news from a

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01:47:53

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final segment of today's interview with Paul Vigiano and Bill Shishko as we pay tribute for the fifth day in a row to the late

01:48:05

Dr. Greg L. Bonson and also use this opportunity to promote the

01:48:10

Bonson Project. And once again, that website is bonsonproject .com, B -A -H -N -S -E -N .com.

01:48:20

And Pastor Bill Shishko, how might our listeners, if they start investigating that website, how might our listeners expect to be blessed, and how might their churches and their pastors expect to be blessed by the ministry that will be offered by the

01:48:40

Bonson Project? I'm actually looking at the site right now, and keep in mind that this is a developing project.

01:48:51

The project began in August of 2020. Thank God we've been able to raise the funds to purchase all of Greg's materials that have been digitized and then getting them up on the site.

01:49:04

Our commitment, though, as people on the board of the Bonson Project, are to make sure the quality is excellent.

01:49:10

But to answer your specific question, people should just look at the Bonson Project free audio lectures, debates, and sermons, and they're going to find amazing things.

01:49:26

A brief introduction to philosophy, which, of course, was Greg's expertise. The extent of the

01:49:31

Atonement Covenant theology. A godly attitude, which is interesting material bearing,

01:49:37

I think, on one of the previous questions that came. Being a disciple of Christ, which was one of Greg's passions, of course, and church membership.

01:49:45

Even deals with practical apologetics, the modern tongues movement. And there's sermons here on the

01:49:53

Trinity, material on the Book of Revelation. So, frankly, you're going to feel like a kid in a candy store when you get this site with all the things that are there, and all you've got to do is just pick out something that's of particular interest to you, and you'll learn within 10 minutes why

01:50:10

Dr. Greg Bonson was just really, not only a scholar, but the man was a consummate teacher and is captivating.

01:50:17

So, yeah, they'll be blessed by that. We do have another listener with a question.

01:50:26

Let's see here, I was just looking at it. Oh, we have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

01:50:36

Why is it that Reformed theology, and even more specifically, presuppositionalism and theonomy, have gotten such an ugly, horrible reputation when you bring them up with those who are outside of these theological camps?

01:50:54

They act as if you're a lunatic very often, and it just baffles me how they could be arriving at these conclusions.

01:51:04

Paul, do you want to start that one? Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that it's entirely unwarranted when people recognize that within this little camp, the theonomy camp, the

01:51:23

Reconstructionism and all that stuff, there's been... I don't think everybody's played nicely within the camp.

01:51:31

And so you're working out, you know, say you got somebody like R .J. Rushdooney, who was kind of a generation before Bonson, who wrote the

01:51:41

Institute of Biblical Law, and then you have Bonson, and they're a little different, but basically very similar.

01:51:48

But now, because you have a little bit of a difference, that's what you argue about at the Thanksgiving meal, is this little, do we have the dietary restrictions or not?

01:51:59

And that kind of takes over, and these types of guys don't mind fighting.

01:52:04

You know, they come from the kind of family I came from. You know, I was raised in an Italian family, you argued, you screamed, and then five minutes later everything was fine.

01:52:14

Not everybody functions that way. And so I think part of it was, like, the growing pains of kind of the...

01:52:24

I don't want to say this discovery. I think it's a rediscovery.

01:52:29

I mean, I just was reading today a quote from Calvin to the

01:52:37

Prince of France in a dedication, and one of the most theonomic statements by John Calvin imaginable.

01:52:45

And so I don't think it's because it's something new, but I do think that it's something that happens when you're working something out, similar to maybe the way

01:52:53

Martin Luther must have felt surrounded by his contemporaries. And of course, many people, regardless of what it is that people are responding with nastiness to, with even hatred or whatever it is, a lot of people, they have never even read a single thing by the person or a person from the theological perspective that they are criticizing.

01:53:19

They very often have just either read or heard the accusations, and very often slanderous accusations, of those who have preached or written against these different views.

01:53:33

Wouldn't you say that that's very often the truth? That, Chris, that is very true, especially in regard to Greg Bonson, and especially in regard to theonomy and Christian ethics.

01:53:45

In some corners, it's a vilified book, and I've been in those corners, and I've asked, have you read the book?

01:53:52

And it's almost unanimously, no, it's kind of a thick book. So I started buying them and handing them out, figuring, well, these are young pastors or licentiates, because they should read it themselves.

01:54:04

I think you're exactly right. And in fact, I am not a theonomist or a reconstructionist, or as my friends in those camps would say, not yet.

01:54:13

But even though I'm not from those camps, some of the most gracious, ironic, and loving people that I know are in those camps.

01:54:26

I'm a very close friend of Gary DeMar, Joe Morecraft, and I could go on and on.

01:54:33

So I think the stereotypes that some people have of these folks are pulled out of thin air, or just, you know, just like everybody has bad apples in their camp, or people with hot tempers in their camp, no matter what camp you're in, they may have only experienced those individuals that have brought reproach upon the rest of the folks having that similar theological view.

01:54:56

In fact, I remember R .J. Rushdooney, I used to subscribe to the

01:55:02

Calcedon Report, his magazine, and over the years that he was still with us on this earth,

01:55:09

I had sent him many books that I found fascinating or edifying, even when they were not from a

01:55:17

Reformed author, let alone a reconstructionist. I sent him many books by non -theonomists and even

01:55:24

Arminians, and it was amazing that 99 % of the time he wrote positive reviews on those books in the magazine.

01:55:31

So he actually read them and posted positive reviews on them. But anyway, Pastor Shishko, I'd like you to conclude the program with what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.

01:55:43

Yeah, I'd appreciate that. I think, Chris, it's important for people to realize that with the rise of post -modernism, the evidentialist way of defending the

01:55:57

Christian faith, frankly, is going to be really found wanting. Two marks of post -modernism.

01:56:04

Number one is there is no non -interpreted data. Post -modernists are honest that all data that you have has an interpretation that precedes it.

01:56:14

We say the same thing. And the second is post -modernism sees the issue of knowledge and communicating data as a matter of control.

01:56:27

And frankly, they're absolutely right. People are going to interpret all data either from an unbelieving perspective or a believing perspective.

01:56:38

There is no neutrality. Post -modernism has said that. And the second is, yes, it is about control.

01:56:45

Jesus is Lord, and people, individuals, are working for their own lordship as idolaters.

01:56:53

And here's why this is so important. That way of trying to impose a worldview on people and individual humans going to be lord of all those things.

01:57:06

That always brings slavery. Only Christ's lordship brings liberty.

01:57:12

So that's why this approach to defending the faith and the implications of it are absolutely huge.

01:57:21

And Paul Vigiano, you have a couple of minutes to share your own thoughts before we go off the air today. Well, I totally agree with Pastor Shishko.

01:57:29

I just think that the value of this project can't be overstated.

01:57:35

I just got a text from one of our members who's at Baylor, this 19 -year -old boy and young man.

01:57:47

But we have another member who went to Stanford. He's about 30. Then we have another member,

01:57:54

Katie. She's about 26 years old. And then this guy, Luke, who's 19. All three of them, well, the first two, it was almost required, if not required, that they listen to Dr.

01:58:07

Bonson's Taking It to the Street series before they went to college. And the two older ones have conveyed to me that what they heard from Dr.

01:58:15

Bonson kept them sound and safe throughout their college years, because Dr.

01:58:22

Bonson deals with everything they're going to hear in terms of opposition to the Christian faith. Now, this third young man just texted me.

01:58:30

Pastor Paul, any good books on apologetics? He's been asked to lead a Bible study, you know, in this group. And the ability for me to send him links to Dr.

01:58:41

Bonson is going to be such a joy. See, right now, he doesn't, he doesn't have a

01:58:47

CD player. You know, CDs, they've gone the way of beta. I mean, they're gone.

01:58:53

You need to send links for these kids to see and read and listen to, and there's going to be great value there.

01:59:00

Amen. And that website is bonsonproject .com, B -A -H -N -S -E -N, project .com.

01:59:08

Please make use of that resource and also fund it financially when you are able to do so.

01:59:13

This has been a great gift to the body of Christ. bonsonproject .com,

01:59:19

B -A -H -N -S -E -N .com. I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to thank my guests for being on the program today.

01:59:27

I hope you all have a blessed, safe, and Christ centered weekend and Lord's Day. I hope you go out and vote, and vote prayerfully.

01:59:36

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.