Tobias Riemenschneider on the Frankfurt Declaration

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Welcome to the

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Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. Today to talk about the threat totalitarianism poses to Christian societies in the

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West, to help me do it, I have with me Reverend Tobias Riemenschneider, who authored, helped author the

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Frankfurt Declaration. If you haven't heard of it, you're gonna wanna know more about it. And that's what we get into today.

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It is a stand, it represents a stand that many are taking in the West, Christians in particular, to try to hedge against this threat.

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And so we're gonna outline the threat, we're gonna give examples, we're gonna talk about ways

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Christians should be thinking about it, because there's gonna be more and more pressure coming from the state as time continues to pass in the next few years,

00:55

I'm sure. So one thing I wanted to let you all know about before we get into it is the fall book sale is still underway,

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September 16th through the 21st. So we only have another day of this, not too much longer.

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And Social Justice Goes to Church is one of the books on sale for 11 .50, 11 .50,

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and there's only six copies left. So if you want that book, you're gonna wanna get on it. Christianity and Social Justice, Religions and Conflict, I still have a number of copies of that.

01:25

So if you're interested for 11 .50, you get an autographed copy, you're gonna wanna check it out. And shipping is flat, it is $6 no matter how many books you order, only through the 21st.

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So take advantage of that while you can. And without further ado, here is Pastor Riemenschneider.

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It's good to talk about the subject we're gonna talk about today, which is in the United States, at least, they call it the separation of church and state.

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We now are facing in our own country, but across the West, questions about how far should that separation be?

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Should there be an actual connection between church and state insofar as the government is accountable to God?

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And this is something our founders in the United States believe, but it's something the reformers believed and Christian civilization has really assumed that for thousands of years.

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But today, the secular state is challenging these assumptions. And so I have with us today someone, a very special guest to bring to you on this particular subject.

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And he is Pastor Riemenschneider, who is gonna share with you about an effort that he's making in his own country, but this has been taking root across the

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West now, of trying to clarify the state's role and the church's role. Welcome Pastor Riemenschneider.

02:38

Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. All right, so you are the author of the

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Frankfurt Declaration, at least one of the authors. And I wanna just, to start off with, get your story because this is something that a lot of prominent reformed theologians in the

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United States have signed, and more people are signing every day. And it looks like a very good statement, but I wanted to hear from you, what brought this about?

03:01

Was it the situation with the virus? Was it something else? Tell me a little bit about yourself and about this document.

03:09

Yes. Well, you know, it was triggered by the virus, the response of the governments to the virus, but I think it has a broad application because I believe what we have seen with the virus, the reaction of the governments, is only one symptom of a bigger problem that lies behind that.

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But so to give you some information, how this work started, I wasn't the one who started it, but I was contacted by a brother from the

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UK, from England, and he was assembling a group of international, mainly pastors, because he had the idea of forming a declaration as an official response of the church to the

03:57

COVID measures. And so I think we met for the first time in April, I believe, in 2021, and started working on this idea.

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And well, it soon became clear that the group did not, well, did not go in the same direction everyone there.

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So we decided to split and three of the pastors decided to form a new group and work on this declaration together.

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And this is this small group of three pastors who actually formed the Frankfurt Declaration.

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It included me, but also a pastor from South Africa, a former theology professor, and a pastor from France, who is an

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American missionary of 40 years to France. So this group of these three pastors, we met over almost one and a half years to work on this declaration.

05:00

Well, I mean, it is a well put together and succinct, it's short, but it's a well put together, thorough declaration.

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And you told me before we started recording that you're actually a lawyer, were a lawyer before you became a pastor.

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Did that contribute to your understanding of this issue? Yes, I believe so. I mean, it is a theological statement, not really a law statement, but the understanding of how the government, how the state works and should interact with the other spheres of government.

05:42

Because I believe it's very similar in the US, but also in Germany, that the German constitution, it basically has all this principles which are derived from the

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Bible. So it helped to understand how our constitution in Germany views the state and citizen relationship, state church relationship.

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So this helps. And it is especially helpful because these things are derived from the

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Bible. They were introduced into the constitution by Christians, or at least by men who had a

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Christian worldview. Now, I know you're the pastor of the Evangelical Reform Baptist Church of Frankfurt, if anyone's interested in checking your church out who might be listening in Germany.

06:33

But obviously Germany with a Lutheran heritage has a, there's a Christian cultural understanding that at least used to exist.

06:41

And obviously I'm not German. I have a little German in me going back a long ways, but I wouldn't have any familiarity with the current situation there.

06:50

So when you said that your constitution has Christian principles, I'm a little curious about that.

06:57

When was your constitution written? Where was the influence of Christianity coming from that made its way into your constitution?

07:04

Just out of curiosity. Yeah. So the constitution we have was written after World War II.

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We got a new constitution there. And in the preamble, it even refers to God.

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So it's clear that the framers of the constitution, they wanted to have this reference to God.

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And they said that this is done in regarding our responsibility we have to God.

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So, and you can see these Christian principles. For example, we also have, we call them fundamental rights.

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So basically I believe that's basically what you would maybe call in your constitution these unalienable rights.

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So we believe that God given rights, which should not be taken away by the state.

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And there is also the recognition that church and state should be separated.

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Even though we have a special situation in Germany where state and church is somewhat conflated here, but this general principle is still there.

08:14

You have a state church, right? Pardon? Do you have a state church? Yeah. Yes, exactly.

08:19

We have a state church. So, but it's clear that the state has no saying in what the church should believe or how it should handle its own affairs.

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So the state is, even though we have a state church, the state still does not tell the church what to believe, what to do.

08:46

But those are separate spheres. Right. And that, of course, that was a problem back in the 1930s and 40s when the state did overstep its boundaries in Germany and start to dictate to the church.

08:58

So you've kind of corrected that in Germany, but now we're in a situation, at least in the last few years, where the government has overstepped its boundaries.

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Would you care to maybe talk to me about the situations or the scenario that you saw that contributed to your concern about the government overstepping its boundaries?

09:20

Yes. I mean, I believe it was very much the same in most of the

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Western world. I think it was maybe especially bad in Germany and it's still continuing.

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So I believe we are one of the last countries which is still talking about new restrictions for the coming winter and so on.

09:41

So - Oh, wow. Yeah, so we are really bad, but it was very similar to the reaction of most states in the

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Western world. So we had, regarding the church, the church services have been prohibited for,

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I'm not certain, six, seven, eight weeks, completely prohibited, which as far as I know, never happened before.

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And then there were, when church services were allowed, again, there were restrictions.

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For example, singing was forbidden for, I believe, seven months or so. No one was allowed to sing in church.

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You were not allowed to let all people in, but only a certain amount of people.

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So you had to ensure that everyone could distance themselves. You were required to wear masks.

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We're at some point even required to have a negative test result. So there were several interferences.

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You were also required to collect and store the personal data of everyone who attended.

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So names, addresses, and so on, and to give it to the state if they required.

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So there were quite some interference from the spider state, but not only the church, but of course also just the normal life of people.

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So you are still not allowed to go on a bus or a train without wearing a mask.

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And - Wow. Yeah, and only very few countries had that, but we were really even discussing having a vaccine mandate for the entire population.

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And it almost went through. So it is really, you know, God really did something to prevent that because it was totally clear that everyone wanted it, and it still didn't pass.

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So we're very grateful that God prevented that. But we were even talking about things like that.

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So there were much of state overreach into the other spheres.

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You were not allowed to visit your dying mother in the hospital or anything like that. So -

11:54

Wow. And that's what's reflected also in the declaration. Well, let's talk about the declaration a little bit, because I think we can all relate to some extent to the circumstances that you were just referring to.

12:07

It sounds like you're suffering in a more extreme form than maybe some of us in the United States.

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But you start off with this statement that you have four or five articles rather here.

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And the first is that God, the creator as sovereign lawgiver and judge. And I like the way this is formed because you have the affirmation and then the denial throughout these five articles.

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And why don't we just go through each one of them briefly? You have a lot of scriptures here as well. And so I know we can't look at all of it, but the first one, you say

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God is the sovereign lawgiver and judge. So we affirm that the triune God is the personal creator of all things and ultimate lawgiver for all human conduct.

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And then you say, and it goes on, and then you say in the denial that we deny that impersonal matter is the final reality behind all things and belief that human conduct is merely a biological or sociological phenomenon.

13:07

Now in the United States right now, in I'd say many areas, there still is somewhat of a reverence for God, especially in what we call the

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Bible belt. So people will kind of acknowledge that God exists. You'll walk into a courtroom, it'll say in God we trust.

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But functionally speaking, we are definitely in, I think a situation where the government operates on this sociological basis, that everything's subjective according to social groups.

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I mean, that's the problem we've had with critical race theory. Is that what you were thinking of or what kinds of things were you thinking of when you wrote this?

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Critical race theory, Darwinism, what philosophies do you see that are threats? Yes, right.

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So surely Darwinism, so that the belief that everything is basically mere coincidence.

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And we wanted to make clear that what we do matters and there is a morality.

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And this morality is not something which changes from people group to people group or from time to time.

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But this is an unchangeable morality because it is given by God and it is rooted in his unchangeable character.

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So what we see today is that many states in the Western world at least, they try to redefine morality.

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What has been called evil for thousands of years, now is called good and should be in fact celebrated by many.

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Now this goes also into homosexuality and transgenderism and so on. So we wanted to make clear, no, there is a standard, there is a morality which does not change.

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And this is actually a higher morality than any government could try to establish.

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So if government says this is now good, but God says that is evil or the other way around,

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God has the last word. So he is the ultimate law giver. And we have to listen to him more.

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We have to do what he says because at the end he will judge us. Governments can also judge us, but only in this world, but ultimately

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God will judge us and will judge us for eternity. So that was important for us to make clear that there is a higher authority than any state.

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And that ultimately we are responsible and have to obey this higher authority, have to obey

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God rather than any man or any state. Yeah, and it's not an advocation of,

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I think what often in our country at least gets termed theocratic or theocracy. It's not, you're not saying that the church has dominion over the state or that Christians can disregard what the state says.

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You're just saying that the state is answerable before God for what it does, just like the churches and every individual as well.

16:22

Exactly, exactly. And then in the second article, it says God is the source of truth and the role of science.

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I know science has been a big topic with, of course, you just mentioned actually the treatments that were going to be possibly mandated that thankfully were not.

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Are you afraid or are you concerned that in the

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Western world and in Germany, there is a trust that is being given to quote unquote science or science so -called that should be given to God?

16:55

Because I've seen this in the United States. Yes, for sure. There is a trust given to the state because everyone believes what the state said.

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They do, okay. Our chancellor even says, well, we give you the truth. So she even said the truth comes from the state.

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So don't listen to anyone else. There is a belief in the state, but also a belief in science, which is undue.

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We call that scientism. So you basically believe that science is the answer to everything.

17:27

We saw that during COVID, we had that in Germany and you had it also with Dr.

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Fauci. We had also a virologist here in Germany. There was only one expert basically who got to say what we have to do now.

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And he is focusing only on the virus and what might be effective or not effective to fight this virus, but that is not enough.

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So politics governing a whole society, a whole country is more than fighting a virus.

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So all the ethical implications, the decisions of governments have on the lives of everyone, they cannot be assessed just by science.

18:13

So that is basically our concern here. And also that science has been turned on its head because science normally is you hear different voices, different experts, and you have a scientific debate and you use scientific method.

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And during this COVID crisis, we were just told there is a scientific consensus. This is what science says.

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And everyone who argued against this, even though he has a great reputation for decades, he just was canceled.

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So it wasn't even real science we dealt with, but some distortion of science.

18:52

Yeah, you talk about in article three, and I think this is incredibly interesting, especially for an

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American audience, a number of threats that you see, you talk about the states mandating medical decisions for its citizens, criminalizing enforced segregation, vocational disempowerment, and any other deprivation.

19:11

But if you keep going, you talk about something that I don't think is talked about a lot in the

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United States. So I'm curious if it's talked about in Germany and that's transhumanism. And so I love the fact that you're getting out ahead of this because I know what that is because I've read the

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World Economic Forum's, some of their material on this. What is transhumanism for those who might not know?

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And why did you feel compelled to include that in a statement about mankind being made in the image of God?

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Right, so because we believe that man is made in the image of God, we believe that every human being has dignity, inherent dignity.

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And this means that we have all certain, in earlier level, got given rights and freedoms and they should not be infringed on by the state.

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And this, for example, includes the right to personal, so it's a medical self -determination. So the state has no right to tell its citizens which medical procedures they should have performed.

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And transhumanism is basically the idea to improve humans, to expand our natural limits by incorporating technology, by using technology.

20:40

And we've seen that. I'm not sure if that was a thing in the States, but it was here in Europe. I believe

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Sweden was very much into that and others as well, that people, even during the

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COVID crisis, began to have chips implanted into their hands, which functioned as vaccine passports and so on.

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The problem with this, well, there's more than one problem. But of course, if God says, if God says,

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I made man in my image, and he says, it is very good. But now we come and say, well, it's not so very good.

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We could improve that. We could make it better. By adding technology. And this is rebellion against God.

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I don't believe that anything good will come out of that. And also it opens the door for a total surveillance and control over human beings.

21:39

Once you have a chip, well, we already have that with smartphones. You had all that stuff there. But once you have technology implanted into your own body, the state, and maybe also others, can trace your every move and basically know everything about you.

21:56

And that even happened in Germany. The German government, during COVID, they developed an app for smartphones, which tracked you the entire time, and also tracked when you came close to another person.

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And they knew if that person was probably infected. And so they knew, okay, you came close to a probably infected person.

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So now you're also under surveillance. So all this started already. It reminds me of Big Brother, of Orwell's 1984.

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And that's basically happening right now. And we don't believe that that is really something which goes along with us being made in the image of God and having dignity and having certain rights and freedoms.

22:45

Now, that's very helpful. To put a fine point on it, though, because I'm anticipating as transhumanism becomes more normalized and more of a threat, you're going to have

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Christians, or at least people who call themselves that, advocating for it and trying to say, well, it's just like getting a prosthetic if you lose an arm, or it's like getting an operation when your heart is in heart failure.

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And I'm wondering if we can make a distinction here, because the distinction in my mind is that transhumanism seems to want to merge human cognition, human thinking.

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It wants to improve upon what God has already made. It's not fixing something that would be as the result of a sinful curse.

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It would be to look at the foundational design and say, we can do better.

23:44

Do you understand what I'm saying? And do you agree with it? Or would you differentiate those two things in a different way?

23:52

No, I totally agree. I believe there's nothing bad with trying to fix someone who has an injury, who has an illness.

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That is one thing, and I don't have a problem with that. But exactly as you said, taking the image of God, taking man and saying we can improve that, even though there is not an illness or an injury, but just thinking we can improve on that.

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We can maybe improve our thinking by adding technology. I believe that is the important distinction.

24:24

Right, so I've heard these theories or these anticipatory thoughts that some of these globalists have where they'll say, we can create, we can put chips in people's heads, right?

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Where they can, we improve their memory bank. But what it does is it introduces now a, as you said, a surveillance feature.

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If you can connect man's brain to a wireless network or something like that, then you are now under, your thoughts are not private or your own necessarily.

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That's the fear, at least I sense, that the government is now going to be the one surveilling not just your actions, but also your very thoughts, which is something that was left to the realm of God and should be left to the realm of just God.

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God knows your thoughts. So it's another example of the state wanting at least to become like God.

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And I'm sure you're probably farther along with that in Europe than probably in the United States, but it's definitely, we're right behind you in many of these things.

25:32

So I think this is important. I'm glad that you put this here. There's a number of Bible verses on man being made in the image of God to ponder.

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The fourth article is that God given mandates and limits of authority. So you say we affirm all earthly authorities derive their authority from God and must give a just account.

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And therefore you deny totalitarian ideologies of governments, which do not recognize the boundaries of their authority and usurp the authority delegated by God to the church or the family.

26:01

So this fear of totalitarianism, legitimate fear is certainly present. And I'm wondering in Germany, do you see, what ideology?

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Do you have a name for it there that, is it just totalitarianism or what is it that people are subscribing to if it's not a

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Christian understanding of these divisions? Yeah. So at least

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I would say that is totalitarianism. You could also say statism.

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Statism. Because it is the state who is absolute. You have a state who reigns as a totalitarian tyrant.

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And we have this problem in Germany. We had that for a long time because you may or may not know, we are one of the only countries in the

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Western world where it is not allowed to homeschool. So you have to send your children to the government school.

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You can have private schools, you can have Christian schools, but you're not allowed to keep them and homeschool them.

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So, and one of, well, our current chancellor, few years ago, he wasn't chancellor then, but he even said that he wants the state to have authority over the children's beds.

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So that's how he expressed it. So he wants the state to have the children, to get the children and to indoctrinate them with whatever the state thinks is the right ideology at this moment.

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And I believe that we see this more and more.

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You have this ideologies, which a state, if the state is not

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Christian anymore, not at least influenced by Christianity, the state will find something else to worship.

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And it makes himself God, but it also finds other ideologies.

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And I think we see that very clearly, for example, with homosexuality and transgenderism, there are things which are now elevated to the rank of religion.

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You're not allowed to say anything against it. Otherwise you'll be canceled or even have to go to jail, which also happened in Germany with a pastor here.

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So he didn't have to go to jail, but he had to pay a high fine for saying something biblical against homosexuality.

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So the state has its own ideology and it cannot accept that someone within his realms, within his borders, thinks otherwise.

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And so they want to get the children very early and want to indoctrinate them with their ideology.

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And they want to cancel everyone who says otherwise. And we believe that this totalitarianism, which crosses all borders, because the state has nothing to say with regard to the family or what the family believes, what parents teach their children or what every citizen believes.

29:02

Wow. Yeah, I had forgotten about that, that in Germany, homeschooling is illegal.

29:08

We had a famous case a few years ago where I know a family was trying to immigrate to the United States seeking asylum and it was rejected.

29:15

I think that was during the Obama administration actually. And so the last article is

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Christ as head of the church. And this seems to be the crux of the issue. Who, at least with the situation that we just, with the virus and everything, who gets to make the rules for the church?

29:34

And of course you say, we affirm that the church of the Lord Jesus Christ belongs to him at the cost of his life and that it is accountable to him alone in all matters of faith and practice.

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And you deny that any other authority is jurisdiction over the church to regulate any of its affairs in matters of faith and practice or to regulate its activities to a non -essential status.

29:52

Which I think is just phrased very well. Oftentimes the objection that's brought up is that, well, what about a building inspection?

29:58

Or what about if someone breaks the law and seeks asylum in a church? Shouldn't the state authorities go into, and of course we believe that.

30:07

That's the government serving in their role to punish evil. And I mean, even in a building inspection,

30:14

I think I can see in the Old Testament some laws concerning negligence. But the way you phrased it was that its own affairs in the matters of faith and practice.

30:24

And that's exactly what happened during the last few years. Did you, out of curiosity, I mean, did you have to shut your church down?

30:31

How did you navigate that? Yes, so we were required to shut down for, I don't remember,

30:37

I think six or seven weeks in the beginning of the COVID crisis and in 2020.

30:43

And we don't have an own church building. So we couldn't enter the building we rented.

30:52

So we couldn't meet as a church, but we still met in the houses. So this was also illegal.

30:59

We're not allowed to leave your house only for what is really necessary for life, yeah?

31:05

Well, we said meeting and worshiping together is necessary. So we decided to meet in secret and in the houses.

31:14

And that was really an exciting time because for the first time, many of us really broke the law and you never know what happens.

31:24

You know, if the neighbor sees you, if the neighbor calls the police. So we were not able to worship as a whole church for six, seven weeks, but we never stopped meeting and worshiping in the circumstances that were possible.

31:39

Yeah, well, I think a lot of people in the United States did the very same thing you're talking about. And it feels surreal in 2020, at that point, 2020, to have to do that, but I respect you for doing it.

31:53

Now on the website, I'm just looking right now at the signers. You have 4 ,600 signers so far, more than that actually.

32:03

And people like John MacArthur have signed it, Votie Bauckham, there's a number of names here,

32:10

Phil Johnson, Doug Wilson signed it, Dr. James White. I mean, you have a few more prominent people in the more reformed movement in the

32:21

United States who have signed it. And anyone though can sign it if they go to frankfurtdeclaration .com.

32:28

And so you have not just in English, but you have it in German. It looks like you have it in,

32:34

I don't know, eight different languages, which is - We have Chinese even. Yeah, you didn't translate all that, did you?

32:43

No, I did the German translation, but what is great, people read this and they contact us and say,

32:52

I want to translate that into Dutch or I made a translation into Chinese. So people are doing that and there are more in the working right now.

33:01

So we only took care of, I think, three or four translations and the rest was done by other people who sent it to us.

33:10

That's great. I'm so glad though this is going out there. So I encourage people to go and sign up.

33:16

What else can they do? Is there anything else they need to do other than sign it? Well, it would be great if the declaration would be shared with others, if it would get some more attention.

33:32

There was already some attention, but I think what is interesting with this declaration, you have other great declarations, for example, the

33:39

National Statement or the Social Gospel. But those were mainly

33:46

American declarations and this is really very international. So I got a lot of feedback from Australia or even from Africa or the

34:00

UK. So this is very international, but it would be great if it would be shared with others, if others sign it as well.

34:09

If someone wants to do a translation, that would be great. Yeah, we will publish it. Well, what I'm hoping is people will hear about this on this podcast and sign it.

34:17

But if your pastor hasn't heard of it, let them know. And I know my pastor signed this and I haven't yet,

34:25

I will. But I think this can probably get into some other realms that it hasn't, for instance,

34:32

Pentecostals, perhaps. I know that many Pentecostals in the United States took a stand against the government tyranny, but I don't think a lot of them know about this.

34:42

So if you're in the audience and maybe you're a Pentecostal or a charismatic or a traditional

34:48

Baptist or whatever denomination you're in, let your pastors know about this and maybe we can get it into a wider audience.

34:57

But you already have some momentum going here. So I do appreciate it. And I'll leave you the final word, if you have any final thoughts or encouragement that you wanna give.

35:07

Yeah, I think there's maybe a small funny story

35:12

I could add. There was some media coverage also in the

35:19

States, for example, the Daily Wire reported on it and also some other articles and podcasts.

35:25

And at least two or three times, I heard people talking or writing about how interesting it is that some people did not sign it and others have.

35:39

And I have to say that is just due to the context

35:44

I have, because this was not a declaration like most declarations where many people, maybe hundreds of pastors come together and sign it officially and have a wide coverage.

35:56

But it was basically just me contacting my friends in the US and around the world, asking whether they would sign it.

36:04

So it's quite funny to see that people talk about this and asking themselves, why did he not sign, he not sign?

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Well, it's just because I could just contact the people I know. And therefore

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I would be really happy if you would help make this spread even wider. And maybe the last word of encouragement,

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I would refer to how our declaration, the framework declaration ends, because it is also meant as a strength, strengthening for Christians.

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So we know that the times ahead might be difficult. Maybe COVID is not the last problem we had on this border.

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So we want to encourage Christians to have really a biblical worldview, to understand these things more biblically and also to act courageously and faithfully.

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And this includes helping others. There are many in Germany who lost their jobs because they didn't get the vaccine or something like that.

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So we want Christians to stand together and help each other, but also to be just faithful.

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And if the state says you have to do this, but this would mean to disobey God, we have to be faithful and obey

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God. And that's basically what we want to do with this declaration, encourage our brothers and sisters to be faithful, stand together and obey

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God rather than men. I love it. Well, Pastor Riemenschneider, I appreciate you joining me and being willing to talk about it.

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God bless you and bless your efforts. And I hope more people will sign. Thank you very much. God bless. Bye now.