Former Cru Staffer Shares Experience

CRU’s Shift Toward Social Justice and Internal Tensions

Well, welcome everyone once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast, I'm your host John Harris and I have a guest with me today to help talk about one of the largest, if not the largest campus, Christian campus ministry organizations, CRU, and that is John Anderson.

John, I appreciate you joining me. Yeah. Good to be here, John. John, you were, you were on staff with CRU. For how many years were you on staff?

I was on staff about five years. One stint in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and later in Richmond, Kentucky, and there were some rocky points, but there were still, still great times and I saw it overarchingly as the big thing I took away was just be faithful to the Lord, faithful to his word, spread the good news of Christ.

And that's what I look back on the experience fondly over. So five years, enjoyed it. There were definitely some times that we'll get into today that were a lot tougher for me and I think tough for a lot of people.

But yeah, it was a blessed thing and I had a blessed financial and prayerful support base behind me too, that I just even to this day look back on and think that was amazing. Yeah. So that's a blessing.

I mean, seeing God's life change. Similar in some ways, I think, to the experience I had at Southeastern, where, especially as I first got there, I had a lot of positive experiences and love class and yeah.

And then, and watching the organization change has been kind of hard and CRU has of course been changing and not to go into the deep details. Some people watching this probably remember after the 2019 CRU staff convention, there was a montage that I put out on this podcast of on just, here's what was being said.

And it was a social justice completely dominated event. I watched just about every session and I was only, I could only find one where the gospel was even presented in a kind of watered down form. The rest of it was mostly just social justice.

And since that time, and I know they were already going that direction before that, but since that time there's just been a number of things that have come up to show a tug of war within the organization.

There was that concerned group of students and staff, well, staff workers, I should say. And they put together a document outlining some of the errors and concerns they had about CRU's direction. That, without getting into the weeds, maybe you can get into the weeds later if you want, but that was kind of, that was ended and it was, that's not happening right now.

CRU's leadership has been able to maintain their positions and there was actually a story just came out recently in Capstone Report, they're talking about a staff clip, a meeting with a bunch of staff leaders at high levels in CRU.

And if you watch it, basically you find out that the Lenz's Institute, which was one of the main targets, I guess, of, well, the main group within CRU that conservative, theological conservatives were concerned about, it supposedly had shut down in the United States.

And there was this tweet that they put out there in July of 2021 saying that the decision to close Lenz's was independent and apart from CRU leadership and they felt hurt and disappointed and kind of like this was in the context of them getting a lot of blowback for their neo-Marxist critical race theory, postmodern training that they were giving people.

And so fast forward to now, Lenz's apparently never really shut down. It was put on pause and it was the leadership of CRU that were overseeing all of this. And it's going to now be integrated into having, it looks like more influence than it did before.

I mean, it's just incredible to me that, you know, I don't know if tone deaf is the word or what it is, but the leadership of CRU and of course, there's so many things I'm missing in all this, you know, the whole Josh McDowell thing and I'm kind of canceling him, but that bring, you know, in the present, it looks like CRU's leadership has emerged kind of victorious here.

They've been able to push a social justice messaging without much in the way of consequence. They've been able to outmaneuver efforts from within the organization and that stuff is just going to kind of continue and perhaps in a more covert fashion, but it's still there.

And so that's, I think, frustrating for a lot of people, donors, especially who have given to CRU, hoping that there would be a turnaround here and there doesn't seem to be. Now, that's a mouthful. I know we want to hear from you, but tell me a little bit about your experience in the organization when it comes to social justice, how you responded, how you were treated by leaders when you disagreed, and if you can shed light on where the organization is at currently, please inform us about that as well.

A Faithful Early Experience Before the Social Justice Turn

Yeah, so, yeah, I'll give a little insight on all that. You know, as a foundation, there were, like I've said, I'll just repeat it, I still had overarchingly a wonderful experience in CRU and there are a lot of solid, sound, faithful, mission-minded staff and students involved.

And so I just want to say that from the outset, so that's on record, if nothing else, because it's true. And I still have a massive love for the organization and for legitimate people like actual flesh and blood people that articulate and talked about Christ and the gospel to me so clearly.

And that's how I came to know Jesus, like maybe not only through CRU, but it was definitely through pretty, I would say, sound and like penetrating teaching about the need for sinners to have someone to save them and that there's only one name under heaven among which men might be saved, and that's Christ, that's Jesus.

And so CRU is a big part of that. I also got it from a very sound local church at the time in Chattanooga, Tennessee, in college. But so I say that all to say, still, I had a great experience. But to ignore evil and to not call out falsehood is irresponsible.

It's disobedient to God. And so that's where the social justice component comes in. And I would say for me, it was something that I hadn't really heard much of till probably like 2017, when I was transitioning from intern time, like year kind of yearlong commitments to a more full time staff, a longer commitment role, even though CRU interns, maybe you've talked to one or two before, they really do the same amount of work.

Like as a staff member, they're just on a shorter commitment basis, like a year at a time. But for me, it was like I just started noticing probably when I was first on transitioning onto full time staff, like it just seemed that every major CRU staff conference I would go to and overtime student ones, too.

There would always be a time, not only that we were basically lectured about racial and ethnic disparities and issues and injustice, things like that, but also almost inevitably, I mean, there was typically a time where we were segregated.

It was like I could almost count on it like, OK, here's the non-whites go to that room and the whites go to this room, I guess, one for more encouragement, one for more education, we'll say. Like simply you're lectured about things such as white privilege, such as economic disparities.

Basically, I mean, to be honest, just what you might get at a corporate seminar, but with some Jesus sprinkled on top. And that is one thing I came to know only through essentially only through beginning to study the scriptures more clearly.

And I suppose I just matured as a believer in my walk with Christ, but also my discernment biblically was, you know, whatever you call it, social justice, justice, whatever the term is that we want to use as it is broadly defined in our culture and as it is broadly defined in the church, that is social justice.

It is a counterfeit that is not true. Right and noble, it's not true righteousness, it's not true justice, but rather it is based on prejudice, assumptions, partiality that is showing favor to one while assuming the worst about another.

Essentially, we are taught, I'll say it this way, from pulpit to pew to treat one another differently based on ethnicity. And the justification is typically that we live in a racialized society. And therefore, you know, there are natural inequalities that go with that.

And I always thought, oh, as opposed to every society ever. OK, like every society ever has had those issues, like it's so OK, that's that's not not just us.

Partiality, Unequal Weights, and the Biblical Case Against Social Justice

What did you do when well, how often were the media these meetings segregated off and so that white students are separate? And then and what did you do in reaction to that?

Yeah, well, initially it was something that was just like it was so it's such an extension of just our culture in general. Like, if that makes sense, like that's just we are taught often to think in those terms.

And so for a while it was just kind of like, oh, like this is just you know, when we talk about race, I really I need to I have to, you know, sit back and listen, especially as a white person like and it was and so you were told this in.

Meetings or. Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's meetings from stages like it's just most of the time you're sort of told that like lift up black voices, those kind of things.

Well, what did the other staff think of this when they hear this? I mean, I mean, I'm assuming you're getting this from multiple levels at the national. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, some, I think, found it kind of weird, but it all was happening. It was happening so fast, too. And on a local level, you're not necessarily experiencing it that much. That was another disconnect.

And I think it's just sometimes a disconnect that happens in larger culture is like on a local level, the people that I ministered with all this, they were so sound for the most part, like dedicated to the local mission that we have to bring the gospel to students on campus, see them come to Christ, to bring them into the local church.

You know, like that, so that was just that was bread and butter for me and for so many that were, you know, my people that I really look up to and ministered alongside with their peers or those that were a little older than me, that were my boss or just a little more true in the faith than I was.

So that was something where it wasn't that much experience there. And so it was often with increasing measure experienced at major conferences like winter conference or like a staff conference, for example, a regional staff conference or the entire big staff conference.

And so I think there were some people I could get the gist of that. This is it's really weird. And it doesn't seem like we are definitely racist a lot of the times. Like, frankly, just we absolutely trash white people constantly and we think that's OK, even though the Bible says do not show partiality, even though the Bible says that God hates unequal weights and measures.

And we definitely. Non-debatedly use different weights and measures for how we are to judge one another, does that. But a lot of times, I think, to be honest, like. The people that understood or kind of had the sense that this is really weird, like it was hard to articulate it because the language that you're fed by our culture and by broader, even these days, unfortunately, Christian culture, all the terms that you're fed is from a more social justice perspective.

And so like you're like you don't even have the language to really use a lot of times like I had to. Maybe maybe my experience is different than some, but I really had to think and study to realize that, oh, like the law of God and Leviticus says thou shalt not show favor to a rich man or a poor man in a lawsuit like I had to come to realize that, oh, my gosh.

If that's true and that's God's standard and it's not that we ignore problems or ignore the poor or anything like that. But if that's true, if that's God's standard of walking into a situation is that I don't already automatically show you favor or show you, you know, disdain or think that I have something over you just by virtue of your social location.

Right. If that's what God says is right. Oh, my goodness. Then we are so unbelievably wrong. Like that's and that was when the light bulb went off to me was just continuing to stay in the scriptures and to realize that, my goodness, prejudice, prejudging is the entire foundation of what we're calling social justice.

And so, you know, like when a news story or something happens and there's a, you know, a nonwhite person dies and it's a white cop or something like my response to that tells a lot of whether I'm about what's actually just and right and true and good or not.

If I'm already presuming like if I'm already presuming, oh, no way. There's no way that cop was racist. Then I'm sort of already reading into the situation and I'm not helping things. I'm not doing justice as God would have it.

On the other hand, if that happens and I presume classic case of racism, I mean, it's everywhere. I've already done injustice, too, because I don't know, like or if I assume this was definitely premeditated murder.

I don't know. And that's the point, like the point was truth matters, what's actually right matters, not. Just forcing people into a system of thinking that isn't true in every situation absolutely matters, that's part of the tyranny of it.

So it just teaches us to judge each other by those presupposed standards.

Confronting Leaders, Discipline, and the Lenses Institute

You know, tell me a little bit about what you did specifically. So so you you were in these meetings, you were hearing this social justice language, you disagreed with it. Any pushback? I mean, did you try to voice your concern?

How is that? How is that met when you tried that?

Yeah, so it kind of varied and I don't claim to be perfect in articulating. When something needs to change, did I always go, did I always do I always go through a proper channel in life? And so I've, you know, I think we all stumble in many ways and I've matured, hopefully, and will continue to mature in that, you know, like, but sometimes it was.

It depended on the situation and it depended on the person you're talking to, like, you know, I feel a lot of times if you're just a person to person standpoint, just like a peer who's not like an upper level staff person, it's like you might be listened to and disagreed with a lot of times that's kind of or heard for a second.

But ultimately, like, well, that's because you're not about justice, right? Sort of the that was the usual that was the from up top and just from any channel that was sort of relevant, like, well, if you're not with this, you're not about justice and you're not necessarily anti-racist.

And it's like, no, it's actually because I'm pro -justice and not racist and trying to not produce racism that, you know, I oppose this. And over time, I became a little bit more dogmatic with it because it just became more cartoonish, to be honest, over time in terms of the lengths of obvious, frankly, sin and evil that were so right in front of us all.

But sometimes it was that sometimes it was, you know, given a chance to talk to someone who's a little bit higher up in the organization. They were admittedly like and thankfully gracious to to hear me and schedule time busy people, of course.

OK, so that'd be ignored. Like, yes, but you did take a change. You did voice your opinion.

You did. Yeah, yeah. That you didn't agree with this. You caught the ear of some people.

Probably my boss once or twice too many times about it. So and he would. He was gracious to allow me to speak to someone higher than him and higher than that guy. So how did that end, though?

Where did you. Was there any change? Was there any. Did they give you a ring around? Did you get in trouble at all? Did you ever get like suspended or anything?

No suspensions of a clean record, but it's appended like I and I think I think I might be speaking about just how any person in any situation might experience it. But you can be ignored. You can be listened to, but ultimately disagreed with and ignored.

You can be just shot down like we're not going to hear you or you can be punished like. And, you know, I had one instance where I pushed back in a way that was sort of a little bit more public. And so I did have like a fourfold plan, I guess, headed up by like crew HR or something along those lines of people and culture.

I think that was basically an HR department. I could be wrong, but essentially a fourfold plan to apologize for calling out something in a meeting in a way that I called it out. And then to go through a lenses training, which you've talked about, heard about the backup.

So this this whole story, though, that you're you're telling, because maybe you don't want to give all the details, but. Yeah, yeah. OK, so all right. You don't have to if you don't want to. But you were in a meeting and can you give us at least this or were you rude?

Were you out of line?

Were you. I know to this day, I in my opinion, I wasn't like it was. I was making light of something that I think was a very disturbingly evil thing. I'll put it that way. That's how I've always seen it.

And maybe it wasn't the wisest move.

I guess that's the only was the evil thing that the evil was.

OK, so a few summers ago, George Floyd was killed, which was a. And the context of that being pretty interesting, like a lot of people were inside at that point because it was during the heights of covid mania and covid response and all of that.

So a lot more people than usual inside, a lot more people watching the news than probably. And so George Floyd became a huge story, him being killed. Right. And the it seems based on the evidence that it was at the very least irresponsible of that cop, if not just straight up murder.

Right, right. So if nothing else, anyone who's anyone with the mind of Christ sees that you at least think, man, that seemed unnecessary at the very least, like to have your knee on him. But nonetheless, like, you know, there's a guy who's been killed and that's fine to mourn over that, you know, like someone who is an image bearer of God, you know, was he perfect?

No, he was probably he probably had some stuff going on in his life that he was in sin about, like from what I've heard. But, you know, still a sad thing to mourn over that we have to watch this video and it's a national story and that someone was probably just straight up murdered.

And so, you know, I but I knew, OK, our response to this, like if we if we respond to this as a ministry, because I don't think every news story warrants a response. I actually think that's wise not to a lot of times, because that means you're not just basically a slave to cultural winds waved around by every wind and doctrine.

But I knew that our response to this particular event at this moment in time will tell a lot about our assumptions about God, our assumptions about what is right and Christlike. And so I think it was just maybe my region of staff, but there was an email invite to all staff in my little region to attend.

And I think it was a lenses sponsor sponsored thing, attend a lenses sponsored Zoom call in lament of George Floyd's death and the laments of, I think, systemic racism in America. And those Zoom calls would be segregated, a Zoom call for.

To use, I guess, the modern term, BIPOC, non-white staff, a call for them to lament and feel comfortable in their lamenting, I suppose, and a call for white people to lament and be educated on the persisting racism in the land or something along those lines.

And the justification, because there was, I think, a little bit of pushback because they sent a response email out like a day or two later saying, like, the reason some have asked why these are separate rooms, basically, or separate Zoom calls, well, we want to mourn with those who mourn.

And we think it's best that we give our staff of color, essentially, a space to do that. And, I mean, at that point, I just remember thinking, wow, if I could, I can only imagine if the shoe is on the other foot.

Like, if I would expect to be struck by lightning, by God, and feel that he's totally within his, with a just reason to do so, if I said, oh, this thing that happened in our culture was awful. I just can't be around, like, I just can't be around Black people right now.

I'll just, oh, that would be obviously massively sinful against those brothers and sisters in Christ. Massively sinful, massively partial, massively hatred against them. That I think that my, what I feel about this trumps my, at the very least, my duty, but also hopefully my heart's desire to love them and be near them, just because they look like the person a little bit more who did the sin than I do, that would be ludicrous.

And so to see that happen is just like, not only is this obvious prejudice, partiality, unequal weights and measures, you know, to even a more of a level than what it was like last week, but also, like, the more and more we do this, the more and more, we're just leading people into sin.

Both rooms are in sin here. Like, one room is in sin because they're being taught and led to believe that it's totally okay to have that viewpoint toward other brothers and sisters. And it's the same sin for the other one.

Like, we're taught, we're sinning because we're condoning that even if our motives are good here, like we're condoning that idea that God hates. And so that was, that was just an abominable thing to me.

I could not believe that what we were doing, like, this is our response. This is our line in the sand here. And this is what we're doing. And so it wasn't like it was just that, like that sort of way of thinking had, I wasn't necessarily surprised by it because I had experienced plenty of things that were of that same mindset and practice, like, over the past couple years before that.

But, you know, I came into the call, the whites only, you know, because I guess I qualify for that. And, you know, I had a little fun with it. I saw, okay, like we're in a, we're in a call that's designed for a specific ethnicity or race, whatever.

And this kind of reminds me of, you know, back in the 50s or 60s. I just, I was just thinking it sort of seems like that, right? Like, I think we might, maybe we'll get separate water fountains one day, maybe separate bathrooms.

I don't know. I didn't know at the time. And so, like, I just thought I, this is such a massive evil before God. It is such giving the finger to him that I'm going to have a little fun with this because I'm just kind of fed up.

And so I, you know, you can change your zoom screen like we all like to do. You know, I'm not in my office right now. I'm on the beach. You didn't know. No, we can change our zoom screen. And so I've changed mine to like a Jim Crow era looking whites only say bathroom sign or, you know, restaurant sign to make a point that this is who we are now.

This is who we are. We were there. We are the anti-racist people and we are in a whites only zoom call. Like this, if you can't see the, if you can't see the cartoonish levels of frankly stupidity here and violating what really loving neighbor is and mourning with those who mourn, because you can't just violate God's commands and say, well, I'm mourning with those who mourn because loving your neighbor, loving God, mourning with those who mourn, whatever have standards.

And so we can't say that we're doing this when we're Satan-ing, like it doesn't work that way. And so it was just something that I was in the call for about a minute. We've got, I don't know, 200 zoom squares, you know, on a screen.

And, you know, if you're in a big call, sometimes there's multiple like screens. And so I think I was in the call, like we were just sort of a waiting room scenario. We're all just like the Brady bunch on screen.

They're saying hi to each other. And so I was kicked out of the call in my, maybe a minute after someone probably who was an administrator was like, what does that say? Oh, we should probably do something.

And so I was kicked out silently. And that was, that was that. I kind of thought like at the time, I was like, oh, a couple of weeks went by and I was like, maybe this is just the wild west at this point and nothing's going to happen.

And then I got a call from, I think it was someone in HR and began a process of like discipline for the act, I suppose. And so the actual act itself, I was not proud of, like in and of itself, it's not like something I'm like, this was funny.

I mean, it's sort of funny in a point, but what was, it was sort of a test, if anything, there's a little bit of a test, like, okay, if I show up here like this and people are upset about, what are they upset about?

Like, what are they, oh, you're white supremacist. Okay. Are you the one who's gung-ho about sitting in a whites only Zoom call or am I? Because I'm definitely not. And so no matter like what gets thrown on me of how dare you, it's like, this is not who I'm trying to be.

It's meant to be a mirror. Like, it was meant, there's nothing else. It was just meant to be a mirror. Like, can we please see who we are? And can we please stop pretending that we are living according to what God says?

And so, you know, it was, I was given a process of discipline.

And so you said you had to go to lenses as a punishment or as a result of that. Yeah. What was that like going to the Lenses Institute?

You know, by the sovereign hand of God, it never panned out. So I had to pray and think, and it wasn't just for that reason. It was for multiple reasons. I ended up transitioning to part-time staff at the time.

And so I think basically, maybe they just found it wasn't necessarily worth all this stuff. Lenses was probably at the time going through transitionary phase two. Like, it just felt like a lot of stuff was in transition.

COVID was still going on. Campuses were still, you know, shutting down ministry from being really allowed in person. And so I think maybe just the timing of when it happened was like, it got swept, not swept under the rug, but just like lost in the shuffle, maybe.

Or maybe it was just me going on part-time staff because I was a lot less, I was a little bit more like one foot in terms of nationally out. But I never lost at the same time. Like all that being said, I still never lost like the love of the game, so to speak for like local team and local ministry was still blessed.

And so I'd still look back on that facet and think this was wonderful.

So yeah, well, I mean, it's interesting that they the way that they handled that instead of reflecting on themselves and seeing kind of the absurdity of what they're doing. They punished you. And the Lenses Institute was, I mean, you weren't someone asking to go there.

You were just a staff worker. And that's, and it was at a local university, I'm assuming, or college. Yeah. And so that's what, and that's what they, which is the heart. That's the heart.

That's right. Really is the heart of the whole thing. So right.

The Root Problem: A Low Fear of God and No Public Repentance

Yeah. So and then, and of course, you're not in crew anymore. You're doing ministry elsewhere. But what are your thoughts? I mean, there's been an effort within crew that I don't know really what to say.

I mean, it sounds uncharitable to the people in it, I suppose. But a failed effort, it seems like to try to reform the organization. Where do you see the organization at this point? Well, because don't donors, there are donors listening.

There are people that probably other staff workers who want encouragement to now that you're not beholden to crew at this point. I mean, what can you tell us about the organization knowing there's good people in there, but where's the leadership at?

Where's the direction at?

Well, I mean, from what I have seen and experienced, and I haven't been around or paid as much attention to the last, let's say, six, seven months. But what I gather, the big problem with all of it is not that it looks weird or is bad PR or whatever.

The problem is that sin has been going on for quite a while. That sin is rooted. Really, the root of all of it is a low view of God, a lack of a reference from God, a low fear of God. And it's not just crew.

It's just evangelicalism, I think. And we all can fall into it. It's a low fear of God. And it's really this lack of acknowledgement that God is creator. We are creature and we live by his standards. And so all that being said, that's why churches experience things like this organization.

Social justice in and of itself is so attractional. It's the more root cause. But all that to say, I don't think I've ever seen any public instance because these are things that are done in public. And so there's nothing wrong with this, for example, being done in public.

But I've never seen a public, any sort of repentance of the ideas and the practices which we employ toward one another as being, this has been a false direction, a sinful direction. Like we really have fallen into worldly way of thinking.

And that's the big thing for me. I don't know the intricacies of the story necessarily, as well as you do, that you read a little bit earlier. But regardless of what happens with that particular institution, Lenses, it's not about Lenses or about this one staff conference.

It's about the foundation of, is this godly? Is this biblical or is it not? And it's not. And so unless something is closed down for repentance sake and for Jesus sake, like a real repentance, a godly sorrow, that's where I've never seen any real evidence.

That being said, for those who are still in crew and have had years and years of ministry or they're just starting out, I would say it would be foolish to not think with some discernment on whether it's the best move.

But still, you can be a faithful witness on a college campus, but you might have to be smart about it. Like for me, it became a little bit harder because I had to think of more than local consequences because we know that sin spreads.

Leaven leavens the whole lump. The Bible says that Jesus repeats it. Right. And so I knew that over time, it's like, whether this ever gets in my time here to a local level, it is already making it to a conference level.

And so I'm now part of my job is inviting students to things that I don't have full confidence of what's going to happen. You know, my final major winter conference was a few years ago, like in terms of full time staff.

And I knew that Jamar Tisby was one of the keynote guest speakers, had at least two or three major full, all the students, hundreds of students sessions speaking. And I knew enough of him to know that, I mean, this guy essentially divides up people by ethnicity and lectures them accordingly.

And that's his whole deal. He is teaching and preaching racism under the banner, the very thin banner that's so obvious to see of anti-racism and Jesus. Like it's just sprinkle some Jesus on top and it makes everything palatable.

And so I knew going in like, oh my goodness, like we've got kids. A lot of them probably don't know Christ. Some do know Christ. And they're just barely developing any sort of theology, any sort of understanding of how to walk with the Lord in the modern world, especially where there's so much confusion.

I mean, we are just bringing them in. I mean, they have no chance. It's just like, and some of them, I've talked to a couple of them, not that many, but it's like, you know, they, it took them a little while to be able to come out of that and realize like, oh wow, like this is, this wasn't good.

Like it wasn't instantaneous. And so a couple of them came away with just a weird feeling. They couldn't articulate it. Why? Because those who are teachers don't give them the words and the ideas to articulate.

And that's a failure on people like me or whoever pastors. And then one, I think was gung ho for a little bit with the cause and then later realized like, oh wait, like this is wrong for me to think that I can treat, in this case, it was white people in this way, like, or see them in this way in a different light than the Lord sees them or sees me.

So have you seen some fruit then coming out of this with former staff that are able to see now the errors that they were told? Yeah.

Warning Staff Not to Give Ground to Evil Thinking

Yeah, a little bit like, and so it's, there's a, there's a couple that come to mind that like, at one point when they first heard these sorts of things, like these sorts of things that like the fruit of the gospel is justice.

And the church has never been about justice. And we need to be about justice, justice, justice, justice, justice. Well, if you're not really thinking about it, what right-minded or like just normal Christian is going to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no way.

Hold on to this justice thing. What do you know? Why don't, I don't want to do justice. And that always used to drive me crazy that that was always a false dichotomy that was thrown at people. It's like, you're either about this, you're not about justice.

And it's like, no, I just, I have a brain. Like, I can't believe this when it's lies and it's poison. And even when it's true, it's only on accident that in this case, like, it was just to say that a white person did this X against a non-white person.

Like, but we just imported that worldview onto everything. And so it was just, everything was racist. You know, it's like, and then nothing is. But there were a couple of guys that I just, I know, and like, you know, I keep in touch with them here and there that just over time saw that, oh, this is weird.