Former Cru Staffer Shares Experience

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome everyone once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris, and I have a guest with me today to help talk about one of the largest, if not the largest,

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Christian campus ministry organizations, CRU, and that is John Anderson.

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John, I appreciate you joining me. Yeah, good to be here, John. Thanks for having me.

00:33

John, you were on staff with CRU. For how many years were you on staff? I was on staff about five years.

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One stint in Chattanooga, Tennessee, later in Richmond, Kentucky. There were some rocky points, but there were still great times.

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I saw it overarchingly as the big thing I took away was just be faithful to the Lord, faithful to his word, spread the good news of Christ.

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And that's what I look back on the experience fondly over. So five years, enjoyed it.

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There were definitely some times that we'll get into today that were a lot tougher for me and I think tough for a lot of people.

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But yeah, it was a blessed thing. And I had a blessed financial and prayerful support base behind me too, that I just even to this day look back on and think that was amazing.

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Yeah. Well, that's a blessing. I mean, similar in some ways, I think to the experience I had at Southeastern where, especially as I first got there,

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I had a lot of positive experiences and love class and watching the organization change has been kind of hard and CRU has of course been changing.

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And not to go into the deep details, some people watching this probably remember after the 2019

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CRU staff convention, there was a montage that I put out on this podcast of on just here's what was being said.

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And it was a social justice completely dominated event. I watched just about every session and I could only find one where the gospel was even presented in a kind of watered form.

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The rest of it was mostly just social justice. And since that time, and I know they were already going that direction before that, but since that time there's just been a number of things that have come up to show a tug of war within the organization.

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There was that concerned group of students and staff, well, staff workers,

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I should say. And they put together a outlining some of the errors and concerns they had about CRU's direction that without getting into the weeds, maybe you can get into the weeds later if you want, but that was ended and that's not happening right now.

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CRU's leadership has been able to maintain their positions and there was actually a story just came out recently in Capstone Report.

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They're talking about a staff clip, a meeting with a bunch of staff leaders at high levels in CRU.

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And if you watch it, basically you find out that the Lenz's Institute, which was one of the main targets,

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I guess, well, it's the main group within CRU that conservative, theological conservatives were concerned about, it supposedly had shut down in the

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United States. And there was this tweet that they put out there in July of 2021 saying that the decision to close

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Lenz's was independent and apart from CRU leadership and they felt hurt and disappointed.

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And this was in the context of them getting a lot of blowback for their neo -Marxist critical race theory, post -modern training that they were giving people.

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And so fast forward to now, Lenz's apparently never really shut down. It was put on pause and it was the leadership of CRU that were overseeing all of this.

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And it's going to now be integrated into having, looks like more influence than it did before.

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I mean, it's just incredible to me. I don't know tone deaf is the word or what it is, but the leadership of CRU.

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And of course, there's so many things I'm missing in all this, the whole Josh McDowell thing, and I'm kind of canceling him.

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But in the present, it looks like CRU's leadership has emerged kind of victorious here.

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They've been able to push a social justice messaging without much in the way of consequence.

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They've been able to outmaneuver efforts from within the organization and that stuff is just going to kind of continue and perhaps in a more covert fashion, but it's still there.

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And so that's, I think, frustrating for a lot of people, donors, especially who have given to CRU, hoping that there would be a turnaround here and there doesn't seem to be.

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Now that's a mouthful. I know we want to hear from you, but tell me a little bit about your experience in the organization when it comes to social justice, how you responded, how you were treated by leaders when you disagreed.

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And if you can shed light on where the organization's at currently, please inform us about that as well.

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Yeah. So yeah, I'll give a little insight on all that.

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As a foundation, there were, like I've said, I'll just repeat it. I still had overarchingly a wonderful experience in CRU and there are a lot of solid, sound, faithful, mission -minded staff and students involved.

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And so I just want to say that from the outset. So that's on record, if nothing else, because it's true.

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And I still have a massive love for the organization and for legitimate people, actual flesh and blood people that articulate and talked about Christ and the gospel to me so clearly.

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And that's how I came to know Jesus. Maybe not only through CRU, but it was definitely pretty,

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I would say, sound and penetrating teaching about the need for sinners to have someone to save them.

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And that there's only one name under heaven among which men might be saved and that's Christ, that's

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Jesus. And so CRU is a big part of that. I also got it from a very sound local church at the time in Chattanooga, Tennessee in college.

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But so I say that all to say still, I had a great experience, but to ignore evil and to not call out falsehood is irresponsible.

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It's disobedient to God. And so that's where the social justice component comes in.

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And I would say for me, it was something that I hadn't really heard much of till probably like 2017 when

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I was transitioning from intern time, like year -long commitments to a more full -time staff, a longer commitment role, even though CRU interns, maybe you've talked one or two before, they really do the same amount of work.

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Like as a staff member, they're just on a shorter commitment basis, like a year at a time.

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But for me, it was like, I just started noticing probably when I was first on transitioning onto full -time staff, like it just seemed that every major CRU staff conference

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I would go to and over time student ones too, there would always be a time, not only that we were basically lectured about racial and ethnic disparities and issues and injustice, things like that, but also almost inevitably,

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I mean, there was typically a time where we were segregated. It was like,

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I can almost count on it. Like, okay, here's the non -whites go to that room and the whites go to this room,

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I guess one for more encouragement, one for more education, we'll say, like simply you're lectured about things such as white privilege, such as economic disparities.

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Basically, I mean, to be honest, just what you might get at a corporate seminar, but with some

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Jesus sprinkled on top. And that is one thing I came to know only through, essentially only through beginning to study the scriptures more clearly.

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And I suppose I just matured as a believer in my walk with Christ, but also my discernment biblically was whatever you call it, social justice, justice, whatever the pet term is that we want to use, as it is broadly defined in our culture and as it is broadly defined in the church, that is social justice.

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It is a counterfeit that is not true right and noble.

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It's not true righteousness. It's not true justice, but rather it is based on prejudice, assumptions, partiality that is showing favor to one while assuming the worst about another.

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Essentially, we are taught, I'll say it this way, from pulpit to pew to treat one another differently based on ethnicity.

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And justification is typically that we live in a racialized society.

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And therefore, you know, there are natural inequalities that go with that.

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And I always thought, Oh, as opposed to every society ever. Okay, like every society ever has had those issues like it's so okay, that's, that's not, not just us.

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What did you do when? Well, how often were the media these meetings segregated off and so that white students are separate?

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And then and what did you do in reaction to that? Yeah, well, initially, it was something that was just like, it was so it's such an extension of just our culture in general.

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Like, if that makes sense, like, that's just we are taught often to think in those terms.

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And so for a while, it was just kind of like, Oh, like, this is just, you know, when we talk about race, I really

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I need to, I have to, you know, sit back and listen, especially as a white person.

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Like, and it was, and so you were told this in meetings, or? Oh, yeah.

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I mean, it's meetings from stages, like, it's just, most of the time, you're sort of told that, like, lift up black voices, those kind of things.

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Well, what did the other staff think of this? When they hear this? I mean, I mean, I'm assuming you're getting this from multiple levels at the national?

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some,

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I think, found it kind of weird. But it all was happening. It was happening so fast, too.

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And on a local level, you're not necessarily experiencing it that much. That was another, you know, disconnect.

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And I think it's just a sometimes a disconnect that happens in larger culture is like, on a local level, the people that I ministered with all this, they were so sound, for the most part, like, dedicated to the local mission that we have to bring the gospel to students on campus, see them come to know

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Christ to bring them into the local church. You know, like that.

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So that was just that was bread and butter for me. And for so many that were, you know, my people that I really look up to and ministered alongside with their peers, or those that were, you know, a little older than me that were my boss, or just a little more true in the faith than I was.

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So that was something where it wasn't that much experience there. And so it was often with increasing measure experienced at major conferences, like winter conference, or like a staff conference, for example, a regional staff conference or the entire big staff conference.

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And so I think there were some people I could get the gist of that this is, it's really weird.

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And it doesn't seem like we are definitely racist, a lot of the times, like, frankly, just we absolutely trash white people constantly.

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And we think that's okay. Even though the Bible says do not show partiality, even though the

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Bible says that God hates unequal weights and measures, and we definitely, non -debatedly use different weights and measures for how we are to judge one another does that.

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But a lot of times, I think, to be honest, like, the people that understood or kind of had the sense that this is really weird.

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Like, it was hard to articulate it, because the language that you're fed by our culture, and by broader, even these days, unfortunately,

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Christian culture, all the terms that you're fed is from a more social justice perspective.

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And so like, you're like, you don't have the language to really use. A lot of times, like I had to, maybe, maybe my experience is different than some, but I really had to think and study to realize that, oh, like the law of God and Leviticus says, thou shalt not show favor to a rich man or a poor man in a lawsuit.

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Like I had to come to realize, like, oh, my gosh, if that's true, and that's God's standard.

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And it's not that we ignore problems or ignore the poor or anything like that. But if that's true, if that's

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God's standard of walking into a situation is that I don't already automatically show you favor, or show you, you know, disdain or see or think that I have something over you just by virtue of your social location, right?

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If that's what God says is right, oh, my goodness, then we are so unbelievably wrong.

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Like that's, and that was when the light bulb went off, to me was just continuing to stay in the scriptures, and to realize that my goodness, prejudice, prejudging is the entire foundation of what we're calling social justice.

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And so, you know, like when a news story or something happens, and there's a, you know, a non white person dies, and it's a white cop or something, like, my response to that tells a lot of whether I'm about what's actually just and right and true and good or not.

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If I'm already presuming, like, if I'm already presuming, oh, no way, there's no way that cop was racist, then

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I'm sort of already reading into the situation. And I'm not helping things because I'm not doing justice as God would have it.

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On the other hand, if that happens, and I presume, classic case of racism, I mean, it's everywhere.

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I've already done injustice, too. Because I don't know, like, or if I assume this was definitely premeditated murder.

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I don't know. And that's the point. Like the point was, truth matters, what's actually right matters.

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Not just forcing people into a system of thinking that isn't true in every situation absolutely matters.

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That's part of, you know, the tyranny of it. So it just teaches us to judge each other by those presupposed standards.

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You know, tell me a little bit about what you did specifically. So you, you were in these meetings, you were hearing this social justice language, you disagreed with it.

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Any pushback? I mean, did you try to voice your concern? How was that? How was that met when you tried that?

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Yeah. So it kind of varied. And I don't claim to be perfect in articulating when something needs to change.

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Did I always go? Did I always do? I always go through a proper channel in life. And so I've, you know, think we all stumble in many ways, and I've matured, hopefully, and will continue to mature in that, you know, like, but sometimes it was, it depended on the situation.

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And it depended on the person you're talking to, like, you know, I feel a lot of times, if you're just a person to person standpoint, just like a peer who's not like an upper level, you know, staff person, it's like you might be listened to and disagreed with.

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A lot of times that's kind of, or heard for a second, but ultimately, like, well, that's because you're not about justice, right?

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Sort of the that was the usual that was the from up top and just from any channel that was sort of relevant, like, well, if you're not with this, you're not about justice, and you're not necessarily anti racist.

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And it's like, No, it's actually because I'm pro justice, and not racist and trying to not produce racism, that, you know,

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I oppose this. And over time, I became a little bit more dogmatic with it, because it just became more cartoonish, to be honest, over time in terms of the lengths of obvious, frankly, sin and evil that were so right in front of us all.

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But sometimes it was that sometimes it was, you know, I've given a chance to talk to someone who's a little bit higher up in the organization, they were, admittedly, like, and thankfully gracious to, to hear me and schedule time busy people, of course.

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Okay, so that'd be ignored. Like, yeah, so but you, you did take a change, you did voice your opinion.

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You did? Yeah, yeah, that you didn't agree with this. And you caught the ears of people probably know what my boss once, once or twice too many times about it.

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So and he would he was gracious to allow me to speak to, you know, someone higher than him and higher than that guy.

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So how did that end though? Where did you Was there any change? Was there any? Did they give you a ring around? Did you get in trouble at all?

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Did you ever get like, suspended or anything? No suspensions. I have a clean record.

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But it's appended like, yeah, I and I think

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I think I might be speaking about just how any person in any situation might experience it.

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But you can be ignored. You can be listened to but ultimately disagreed with and ignored.

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You can be just shot down like we're not going to hear you or you can be punished.

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Like and you know, I had one instance where I pushed back in a way that was sort of a little bit more public.

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And so I did have like a fourfold plan, I guess headed up by like crew

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HR or something along those lines, people in culture. I think that was basically an HR department,

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I could be wrong, but essentially a fourfold plan to apologize for calling out something in a meeting in a way that I called it out.

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And then to go through a lenses training, which you've talked about, heard about the backup.

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So this this whole story, though, that you're telling, because maybe you don't want to give all the details, but yeah, yeah.

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Okay, so all right, you don't have to if you don't want to, but you were in a meeting. And can you give us at least this?

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Or were you rude? Were you out of line? Were you? I know, to this day,

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I, in my opinion, I wasn't like it was, I was making light of something that I think was a very disturbingly evil thing.

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I'll put it that way. That's how I've always seen it. And maybe it wasn't the wisest move.

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I guess that's the only evil thing that the evil was. Okay, so a few summers ago,

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George Floyd was killed, which was a the context of that being pretty interesting, like a lot of people were inside at that point, because it was during the heights of COVID mania, and COVID response and all of that.

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So a lot more people than usual inside, a lot more people watching the news than probably so George Floyd became a huge story him being killed, right?

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And the, it seems based on the evidence that it was, at the very least, irresponsible of like that cop, if not just straight up murder, right?

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So if nothing else, anyone who's anyone with the mind of Christ sees that, you at least think man, like, that seemed unnecessary, at the very least, like, to have your knee on them.

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But nonetheless, like, you know, there's a guy who's been killed, and that's fine to mourn over that, you know, like, someone who is an image bearer of God, you know, was he perfect?

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No, he was probably, he probably had some stuff going on in his life that he was in sin about, like, from what

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I've heard. But, you know, still a sad thing to mourn over that we have to watch this video, and it's a national story that someone was probably just straight up murdered.

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And so, you know, I but I knew, okay, our response to this, like, if we if we responded, this is a ministry, because I don't think every news story warrants a response.

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I actually think that's wise not to a lot of times, because that means you're not just basically a slave to cultural winds, waved around by every wind and doctrine.

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But I knew that our response to this particular event at this moment in time will tell a lot about our assumptions about God, our assumptions about what is right, and Christ like and so I think it was just maybe my region of staff.

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But there was an email invite to all staff in my little region to attend.

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And I think was a Lenz's sponsored thing, attend a Lenz's sponsored

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Zoom call in lament of George Floyd's death and the laments of,

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I think, systemic racism in America. And those Zoom calls would be segregated.

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A Zoom call for, to use, I guess, the modern term, BIPOC, non -white staff.

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A call for them to lament and feel comfortable in their lamenting, I suppose, and a call for white people to lament and be educated on the persisting racism in the land or something along those lines.

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And the justification, because there was, I think, a little bit of pushback, because they sent a response email out, like a day or two later, saying, like, the reason, some have asked why these are separate rooms, basically, are separate

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Zoom calls. Well, we want to mourn with those who mourn. And we think it's best that we give our staff of color, essentially, a space to do that.

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And, I mean, at that point, I just remember thinking, wow, if I could,

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I can only imagine if the shoe is on the other foot. Like, if I would expect to be struck by lightning, by God, and feel that he's totally within his, with a just reason to do so.

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If I said, oh, this thing that happened in our culture was awful. I just can't be around.

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Like, I just can't be around black people right now. I'll just, oh, that would be obviously massively sinful against those brothers and sisters in Christ.

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Massively sinful, massively partial, massively hatred against them. That I think that my, what

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I feel about this trumps my, at the very least, my duty, but also hopefully my heart's desire to love them and be near them, just because they look like the person a little bit more who did the sin that I do, that would be ludicrous.

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And so to see that happen is just like, not only is this obvious prejudice, partiality, unequal weights and measures, to even a more of a level than what it was like last week, but also like the more and more we do this, the more and more we're just leading people into sin.

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Both rooms are in sin here. Like one room is in sin because they're being taught and led to believe that it's totally okay to have that viewpoint toward other brothers and sisters.

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And it's the same sin for the other one. Like we're taught, we're sinning because we're condoning that even if our motives are good here, like we're condoning that idea that God hates.

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And so that was, that was just an abominable thing to me.

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I could not believe what we were doing. Like, this is our response. This is our line in the sand here.

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And this is what we're doing. And so it wasn't like, it was just that, like that sort of way of thinking had,

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I wasn't necessarily surprised by it because I had experienced plenty of things that were of that same mindset and practice like over the past couple of years before that.

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But, you know, I came into the call, the whites only, you know, because I guess

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I qualify for that. And, you know, I've, I had a little fun with it.

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I saw, okay, like we're in a, we're in a call that's designed for a specific ethnicity or race, whatever.

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And this kind of reminds me of, you know, back in the 50s or 60s.

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I just, I was just thinking it sort of seems like that, right? Like, I think we might, maybe we'll get separate water fountains one day, maybe separate bathrooms.

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I don't know. I didn't know at the time. And so like, I just thought I, this is such a massive evil before God.

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It is such giving the finger to him that I'm going to have a little fun with this because I'm just kind of fed up.

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And so I, you know, you can change your zoom screen like we all like to do. You know,

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I'm not in my office right now. I'm on the beach. You didn't know. No, we can change our zoom screen.

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And so I've changed mine to like a Jim Crow era looking whites only we'll say bathroom sign or, you know, restaurant sign to make a point that this is who we are now.

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This is who we are. We were there. We are the anti -racist people. And we are in a whites only zoom call like this.

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If you can't see the, if you can't see the cartoonish levels of frankly, stupidity here and violating what really loving neighbor is mourning with those who mourn because you can't just violate

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God's commands and say, well, I'm mourning with those who mourn because loving your neighbor, loving God, mourning with those who mourn, whatever have standards.

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And so we can't say that we're doing this when we're Satan -ing like it's, it doesn't work that way.

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And so it was just something that I was in the call for about a minute. We've got, I don't know, 200 zoom squares, you know, on a screen.

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And, you know, if you're in a big call, sometimes there's multiple like screens. And so I think

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I was in the call, like we were just sort of a waiting room scenario. We're all just like the Brady bunch on screen there saying hi, hey to each other.

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And so I was kicked out of the call and my, maybe a minute after someone probably who was an administrator was like, what does that say?

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Oh, we should probably do something. And so I was kicked out silently. And that was, that was that.

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And I kind of thought like at the time I was like, Oh, a couple of weeks went by and I was like, maybe this is just the wild West at this point and nothing's going to happen.

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And then I got a call from, I think it was someone at HR and began a process of like discipline for the act,

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I suppose. And so the actual act itself, I was not proud of like in and of itself.

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It's not like something I'm like, this was funny. I mean, it's sort of funny in a point, but what was, it was sort of a test.

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If anything, there's a little bit of a test. Like, okay. If I show up here like this and people are upset about what are they upset about?

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Like, what are they? Oh, you're white supremacist. Okay. Are, are you the one who's gung -ho about sitting in a whites only zoom call?

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Or am I? Cause I'm definitely not. And so no matter like what gets thrown on me of how dare you, it's like, this is not who

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I'm trying to be. It's meant to be a mirror. Like it was meant, there's nothing else. It was just meant to be a mirror.

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Like, can we please see who we are and can we please stop pretending that we are living according to what

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God says. And so, you know, it was, I was given a process of discipline.

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So you said you had to go to lenses as a punishment or as a result of that. What was that like going to the lenses

30:13

Institute? You know, by the sovereign hand of God, it never panned out. So I, I, I had to pray and think, and it wasn't just for that reason.

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It was for multiple reasons. I ended up transitioning to part -time staff at the time.

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And so I think basically maybe they just found it wasn't necessarily worth all this stuff.

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Lenses was probably at the time going through transitionary crates to like, it just felt like a lot of stuff was in transition.

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COVID was still going on. Campuses were still, you know, shutting down ministry from being really allowed in person.

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And so I think maybe just the timing of when it happened was like, it got swept, not swept under the rug, but just like lost in the shuffle maybe, or maybe it was just me going to part -time staff because I was a lot less,

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I was a little bit more like one foot in terms of nationally out. So, but I never lost at the same time, like all that being said,

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I still never lost like the love of the game, so to speak for like local team and local ministry was still blessed.

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And so I'd still look back on that facet and think this was, this was wonderful.

31:25

So, yeah. Well, I mean, it's interesting that they, the way that they handled that instead of reflecting on themselves and seeing kind of the absurdity of what they're doing, they punished you.

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And the lenses Institute was, I mean, you weren't someone asking to go there. You were just a staff worker.

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And, and that's, and it was at a local university, I'm assuming, or college. Yeah. And so that's what, and that's what they, which is the heart.

31:53

That's the heart. That's really is the heart of the whole thing. So. Right. Yeah.

31:58

So, and then, and of course you're not in crew anymore. You're, you're doing ministry elsewhere, but what, what are your thoughts?

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I mean, there's been an effort within crew that I don't know really what to say.

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I mean, it sounds uncharitable to the people in it, I suppose, but a failed effort, it seems like to try to reform the organization.

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Where do you see the organization at this point? Um, well, because don't donors, there are donors listening.

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There are people that probably other staff workers who want encouragement to, um, now that you're not, you're not beholden to crew at this point.

32:33

I mean, what can you tell us about the organization knowing there's good people in there, but where's the leadership at, where's the direction at?

32:40

Well, I mean, from what I have seen and experienced, um, and I haven't been around or paid as much attention the last, let's say six, seven months, what

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I gather, the big problem with all of it is not that it looks weird or is bad

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PR or whatever. The problem is that sin has been going on for quite a while.

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That sin is rooted. Really the root of all of it is a low view of God, a lack of a reference from God, a low fear of God.

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And it's not just crew. It's just evangelicalism. I think, and we all can fall into it. Like it's a low fear of God.

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And it's really, it's lack of acknowledgement that God is created. We are creature and we live by his standards.

33:28

Right. And so all that being said, that's why churches experienced things like that. It's an organization.

33:35

Social justice in and of itself is so, you know, attractional. It's the more root cause, but all that to say,

33:44

I don't think I've ever seen any public instance because these are things that are done in public.

33:50

And so there's nothing wrong with this, for example, being done in, in public. Um, but I've never seen a public, any sort of repentance of the ideas and the practices which we employ toward one another as being, this has been a false direction, a sinful direction.

34:09

Like we really have fallen into worldly way of thinking. And that's the big thing for me.

34:15

Like, I don't, I don't know the intricacies of the story necessarily as well as you do, uh, that you've read a little bit earlier, but regardless of what happens with that particular institution lenses, it's not about lenses or about this one conference, or it's about the foundation of, is this

34:34

Godly, is this biblical or is it not? And it's not. And so unless something is closed down for repentance sake and for Jesus sake, like a real repentance, a

34:48

Godly sorrow, that's where I've never seen any, any real evidence.

34:54

Um, that being said, you know, for those who are still in crew and have had years and years of ministry, or they're just starting out, you know,

35:06

I, I would say it would be foolish to not think with some discernment on whether it's the best move, but still you can be a faithful witness on a college campus, but you might have to be smart about it.

35:22

Like for me, you know, it became a little bit harder because I had to think of more, more than local consequences, because we know that sin spreads 11, 11 is the whole lump.

35:32

The Bible says that Jesus repeats it. Right. And so I knew that over time, it's like, whether this ever gets in my time here to a local level, it is already making it to a conference level.

35:44

And so I'm in now, I'm now part of my job is inviting students, you know, to things that I don't have full confidence of what's going to happen.

35:56

Like, you know, my final kind of final major winter conference was a few years ago, like in terms of full -time staff.

36:02

And I knew that Jamar Tisby was one of the keynote sort of like guest speakers had at least two or three major, you know, full, all the students, hundreds of sessions speaking.

36:16

And I knew enough of him to know that, I mean, this guy essentially divides up people by ethnicity and lectures them accordingly.

36:27

And that's his whole deal. He is teaching and preaching racism under the banner, the very thin banner that's so obvious to see of anti -racism.

36:39

And Jesus, like it's just sprinkle some Jesus on top and it makes everything palatable.

36:45

And so I knew going in, like, oh my goodness, like we've got kids.

36:51

A lot of them probably don't know Christ. Some do know Christ and they're just barely developing any sort of theology, any sort of understanding of how to walk, you know, with the

37:01

Lord in the modern world, especially where there's so much confusion. I mean, we are just bringing them in.

37:09

I mean, they have no chance. It's just like, and some of them, I've talked to a couple of them, not that many, but it's like, you know, they, it took them a little while to be able to come out of that and realize like, oh wow, like this is, this wasn't good.

37:24

Like it wasn't instantaneous. And so a couple of them came away with just a weird feeling. They couldn't articulate it.

37:30

Why? Because those who are teachers don't give them the words and the ideas to articulate. And that's a on people like me or whoever, pastors.

37:40

And then one, I think was gung ho for a little bit with the cause. And then later realized like, oh wait, like this is wrong for me to think that I can treat, in this case, it was white people in this way, like, or see them in this way in a different light than the

37:58

Lord sees them or sees me. So have you seen some fruit then coming out of this with, with former staff that are able to see now the errors that they were told?

38:10

Yeah. Yeah. A little bit like, and so it's, there's a, there's a couple that come to mind that like, at one point when they first heard these sorts of things, like these sorts of things that like the fruit of the gospel is justice and the church has never been about justice.

38:30

And we need to be justice, justice, justice, justice, justice. Well, if you're not really thinking about it, what right -minded or like just normal Christian is going to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no way.

38:42

Hold on to this justice thing. I don't want to do justice. And that always used to drive me crazy that that was always a false dichotomy that was thrown at people.

38:52

It's like, you're either about this, you're not about justice. And it's like, no,

38:58

I just have a brain. Like, I can't believe this when it's lies and it's poison.

39:05

And even when it's true, it's only on accident that in this case, like it was just to say that a white person did this

39:14

X against a non -white person, like, but we just imported that worldview onto everything.

39:20

And so it was just, everything was racist. You know, it's like, and then nothing is. But there were a couple of guys that I just,

39:29

I know, and like, you know, I keep in touch with them here and there that just over time saw that this was weird.

39:36

And eventually one of them was a lot more like, oh, this is not only like, not a good direction. It's like an evil direction that we're going.

39:44

And that was, I don't remember what his necessary process was to see that problem. I mean, I know it was the word of God and I know someone told him to think about it.

39:53

Other than that, I don't remember, but that was encouraging. And, you know, one thing

39:58

I do know for a fact, it's like a lot of people have similar feelings. A, don't know how to voice them.

40:05

B, somehow maybe think it's wrong to voice them. I don't, I've never understood that because I just don't see the

40:11

Bible giving much warrant to amongst the people of God when there's falsehood, just not confronting it seems, where do we get that?

40:21

But there's that. And then I think a third one is like, there's a fair amount of people that see it as something that is off and wrong and violating scripture, but they're just scared.

40:34

And whether that's good or bad that they're scared, you know, can kind of make it's situational.

40:39

A lot of times, probably it's like there were probably times I was a coward. There were probably times I was wise for not speaking up, you know,

40:45

I mean, like the Lord has to give us discernment based on his word and circumstantially. But I definitely got that feeling that a lot of people were just scared to speak out because, well, if you speak out,

40:56

I mean, you're like a evil, racist, bigot, Nazi zombie. Like, I mean, like it's not, it's like, okay, do

41:04

I say this or do I just keep going along? Like it's that's, that was always the fear within my guts a little bit.

41:13

It was like, man, if I say anything, like I am seen as enemy number one, the cause of justice in the land.

41:20

Like, well, dang, I don't want that. So. Yeah. Well, what advice would you have for a staff member who is in a position now as you were not up until not too long ago, what would you tell them?

41:34

I would say, well, the big one that comes to mind for me is just the reality, biblically speaking, that we are called to live, teach truth in love.

41:46

And so not sacrificing what is the truth, but also realizing that we are to be gracious.

41:52

We are to care about the person or people that we are seeking to win. But that being said,

42:00

I think it's fairly, I think it's fairly obvious that if we're leaning one way or the other in our day, we're leaning a lot more to not speaking up and to giving ground.

42:11

I think that's just the era that we're in. We don't have a lot of John MacArthur -esques that are on the bolder side and willing to stand up a little bit.

42:23

And so even if you're not of that type, though, my biggest advice is just in your interactions and your thoughts about God's word as you're in your time with the

42:34

Lord, whatever, do not give ground to that which is evil.

42:41

And I think that is something that is really important, meaning do not give ground when you are presented an idea that is unbiblical, when you're presented an idea that it's totally okay to say that, well, we need to have, in this case, it's white people, but it could be another thing in the future.

43:01

Like we should have, we need to lift up non -white voices. And if you're not one, well, you need to be able to just listen.

43:08

To go along with that is giving ground to foolish thinking.

43:14

I don't want to give voice to anyone except God according to his word and those who teach it clearly.

43:25

And to not have that be the first standard is, I mean, we're already losing, we're already lost if our first standard is what ethnicity or gender or whatever is the person.

43:38

It's over. We've already given ground to thinking the

43:44

Bible is not necessarily good or clear enough to be taught by a servant of God who is the mind of Christ.

43:51

That's my big one is, even if it's just within as the Lord is teaching you, do not give ground to evil ways of thinking, because life and teaching, life and doctrine are always connected.

44:05

There's one does never apart from the other, what you believe and take in will show itself, the mouth.

44:13

Jesus says, and so if I start to believe false things about, in this case, it's justice, it could be in the future, something else like I will become a tyrant who is disobeying

44:24

God and enforce that on others. I remember, I'll just share kind of maybe one or two other instances of like, wow,

44:32

I can't believe this, but it was so insightful. And I'll never forget this for the falsehood works.

44:42

I remember we had this group, it's probably still in existence. It's a Facebook group.

44:48

It's about culture, cultural competency. And a lot of it was focused on racial justice, basically.

44:58

And I remember there was like a white guy and a black guy in a thread, like they're a little topical threads, kind of like any

45:08

Facebook group or whatever. And they were talking about just some subject.

45:13

I don't know if it was justice or it could have been something different than that, even just doctrine or something.

45:20

And like, so white guy, like he says A to the guy over here, guy

45:26

B. So guy A says something to guy B. And they're just kind of, they're not necessarily hating each other.

45:34

They're just disagreeing basically about something. I think this, well, actually, I think it's more wise to say this. And so then a third guy, guy

45:41

C, he comes in and he has a fairly prominent position in terms of like, he helped plan a lot of the regional conferences, like helps lead summer missions.

45:52

He's someone who a lot of people know and he has his hands on some important things in the organization and makes decisions on who's going to potentially who might speak, whatever, like programming.

46:04

And I remember him, he basically instructs the white guy, guy A, something along the lines of that was an okay point, but we need to be careful of whitesplaining.

46:17

And I remember at that point thinking like, this is, that was so bad to say.

46:25

And it was, I mean, it really was just, it was classic partiality, like point

46:32

A, point B. It's not whether point A was true or false, whether point B, no, it's just you're white, you're black, we need to be careful.

46:40

But it taught me, that one instance taught me so much about the way that those thought processes were.

46:49

In that one instance, that was a small little thing. The guys got over it, it was fine. But like in that moment, it's like, okay, that guy, guy

46:57

C, who has quite a compassionate heart, I'm sure, is pretty social justice minded.

47:05

And in one small instance where the stakes are low, he's murdered truth. He's shut down someone who might've been sharing the truth about God.

47:16

The other guy could have been wrong or whatever, you know what I mean? He might've shut that down.

47:21

He's encouraged someone over here to think that his thoughts should be upheld by ethnicity.

47:29

He's gotten this guy to believe that they should be considered at least less, or if you're telling the truth about something, there is such a thing as whitesplaining, which is like, how would you define that?

47:42

The only thing I can think of that being is like, hey, I'm white and you're not, so deal with it.

47:48

That's the only thing I can think of, you know what I mean? Like whitesplaining being like, you can't understand because you're not white.

47:54

And he wasn't doing that. He was just making a point, like trying to find the truth, speak the truth.

48:01

And I just remember thinking, man, like if this is what the thought process is in a very low stakes thing, being high stakes, like when there's hundreds of students or hundreds of staff, and this is the kind of thinking that dominates and sort of like wins the day.

48:20

Like that was fascinating. Another one, kind of the last one I'll share, just in terms of it, just crystallizing how far away we were from fear of God.

48:30

Those are the examples that really come to mind for me for the whole time was like maybe two or three years ago, like there's a

48:41

Superbowl, like the biggest NFL game of the year, the Superbowl, and Superbowl always has a Superbowl halftime show.

48:48

And it's no shock, it's never a Christian artist. But this particular

48:54

Superbowl halftime show, I want to say it had two prominent like Hispanic female artists at it and good voices, everything like that.

49:07

But you know, the show, it was more sexually raunchy than even typical halftime show.

49:16

What about the Shakira? Yeah, they were not bands. Jennifer Lopez. Yeah. I didn't see it.

49:22

I just, I remember when it happened. Yeah. Okay, good. I was gonna say, man, we gotta have a talk then.

49:30

But like, you know, so I'm sure they have great voices, very talented, but I remember it being an actual thread on the same sort of group that okay, what should we focus more on?

49:45

Should we focus more on the fact that, you know, there was yes, there was rampant, you know, promiscuity and the degrading of someone's body, and probably leading others into sin, like, because you're just flaunting your sexuality, there's and many more things, you know, but reality.

50:06

And then there's that, it's like, what or should we focus more on the fact that, hey,

50:13

I mean, but look, who got to be up there? Two Hispanic women. Right.

50:18

And I'm just sitting there like, you, they're, oh, how are we missionaries?

50:25

How are we missionaries organization and even entertaining? This is a subject that's even debatable.

50:31

Of course, it's more important that there was rampant sexuality. God's not looking down saying, you know,

50:36

I didn't like this, but hey, at least they were Hispanic, or whatever, like, that is ludicrous, to think that, that we have the mind of Christ.

50:46

And that's what we're going with, to me was just, at the time,

50:51

I was man, like, and I, and on those types of threads, I remember, like, after a while,

50:59

I felt like maybe I'm just a bit too much like Ebeneezer Scrooge or something, because I usually kind of,

51:05

I'm like the sort of meanie on the thread. But like, a lot of times when I would, like post back on things like that, like, there was almost no support.

51:17

Like, maybe there were some, but it was like, it was almost always like, I bet you the, the disagreement with me is gonna be four to one.

51:25

Like, at least, like, and I get that in that group, it was a certain segment of crew staff that tended to dominate it, those who are more social justice minded.

51:37

But regardless, it's like, the fact that we are entertaining this, not seeing that this is a sinful way of thinking, that contradicts scripture, that we should not be celebrating the fact that two people are up on stage doing that, or also have to be of some ethnicity, and that those things are even close to 50 -50, which they're not, was very, it was just troubling.

52:02

Well, yeah, and both of these stories taking place within the context of crew, and missionaries, missionaries, and, you know, conservative evangelical organization is supposed to be, should really give everyone a little bit of pause.

52:17

Yep. So, but I, hey, look, I appreciate you coming on and sharing all that, because I know, you know, I've had contacts from a lot of different crew missionaries, especially in probably to 2020,

52:27

I had a lot of people reaching out when there was an effort underway to try to reform crew.

52:33

And, you know, the vast majority aren't willing to come and share, and you are willing to come and share about some of the experiences you had.

52:41

So I appreciate that. Anywhere you want people to, to go to find out more about what you're doing, you have a website or anything like that?

52:50

Yeah, I don't have any sort of personal website. I do, my church, my local church here, which has been a blessing for me in the four years or so that I've lived in my current town in Kentucky.

53:03

We have a few things that we do, a couple of them are, we're seeking to build local church, church resources, particularly for just in many ways, your average person in the pews.

53:21

And so two main age groups, the first one is probably those who are, you know, 10 and above or something called theology for you.

53:30

And that is simply looking at some of the great teachings, the most important teachings of Scripture, and maybe later on other ones, and allowing it to be a 10 minute or so video that teaches on like the topic of the clarity of Scripture, or justification or the authority of Scripture, those sorts of things.

53:51

And doing that in a format that could be used in a local church as a, you know, help for a local church, if they're looking to, like a

54:00

Wednesday night series or something, they use this sort of as a launching point to talk more about the authority of Scripture, or even for just family learning, something like that.

54:11

The second one is Kids of Grace. Kids of Grace is designed probably for kids, eight and below or so, and it's the same ideas, the same core realities of who is

54:22

God, what is true about us as people, and what must be done about it.

54:27

Essentially, God is creator, He is the authority, He's created us to know

54:33

Him, to serve Him, but our natural bent is to rebel against that, and to not love

54:38

Him and to worship other things. But there's hope in Jesus, the one who lived a perfect life in our sake, died for us, and offers us true hope and new life.

54:48

But doing that in a way that is more tailored toward kids with a bit of, you know, a bit of fun,

54:55

I guess you could say, or silliness from the hosts, but I think it's age -appropriate to be.

55:02

And so that, and probably start church website, if people are in the Lexington -ish area of Kentucky and are looking for a church, that's why

55:11

I'm providing that is that, you know, no church is perfect, but I do like to think that, well, one, we're a true church because we have the truth of Christ, we have a true gospel and hold to a true gospel.

55:23

We're not adding things or subtracting, we believe in Christ and His death and resurrection as real.

55:30

But two, I think we're a solid church in other areas, too, that will be helpful in an era of confusion and compromise.

55:41

Well, thank you. I'll put the links in the info section for anyone interested in that. You're to be commended,

55:46

John, for being vocal about this and taking a standing crew, and I appreciate you coming on and sharing.

55:52

I appreciate it. And yeah, thank you very much for having me. I really do appreciate it.