Perry Noble Teaches the False Doctrine of Vision Casting

Now what we're gonna be listening to is a portion of a podcast put out a while ago, not super recently, by Perry Noble from his Perry Noble Leadership Podcast. And if you're thinking, he has a podcast called the Perry Noble Leadership Podcast?

Oh yeah, he does. In fact, his goal is to duplicate himself in a whole bunch of seeker-driven leaders and church planners so that there's a bunch of little Perry Nobles running around all over the landscape, which should keep you awake at night.

But don't worry, Christ is coming back. Focus on Jesus. These aren't pastors that they're producing, they're something completely different. And so I think it's good for you to hear from Perry Noble's mouth himself regarding this whole idea of vision casting and where does the vision come from.

Here's Perry Noble and I think his co-host is Shane Duffy, I forget the name of the guy who's with him, but they're discussing the vision of a leader. Here we go. We want to focus on the source of that alarm, the source of the vision for your church or organization.

Obviously I have with me Perry Noble, and Perry, the first question I have for you is why is having a specific vision such an important thing for a pastor or a leader? I think you can't lead effectively without a vision, because here's...

Now, you can't lead effectively without a vision. Now, I want to make something clear. He's kind of putting the cart before the horse. Oh, why is it important? Well, you can't lead without a vision. Oh, well, yeah, I guess that's true.

I can't lead without a vision. And I'm a leader, right? So I can't lead without a vision. And so what they're doing is telling you why it's important before they tell you where it's coming from. So I'm going to, spoiler alert here, I'm going to tell you what they're going to tell you, okay, that they haven't told you yet.

And that is that this vision is a direct revelation from God, just like, well, Chuck Pierce experienced there at Glory of Zion. Yeah, it's a direct revelation from God that they're talking about. This is not...

Christ has revealed his vision in Scripture, and the vision is this, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching all that I have commanded you, right? Go and proclaim repentance in the forgiveness of sins to all nations, starting in Jerusalem.

That's not what he's talking about. He's not talking about something you can actually find in Scripture. No, this is the pastor making himself worthy by showing he's serious to God. God, I'm serious about receiving a vision.

So I'm going to pray, and I'm going to fast, and God's going to sit there in heaven and go, okay, well, prove to me that you're worthy to receive the vision. By the way, this is what Dan Sutherland teaches, and you can find this, by the way, in the archives of Fighting for the Faith.

Just type in Dan Sutherland and go back and listen to the purpose-driven hostile takeover tactics that they employ here. And this is what they teach, that the pastors to, you know, a church planter is thinking, oh, well, I need a vision, a specific vision to follow.

And so, Lord, I'm gonna prove myself worthy to receive this vision, and so the poor pastor, maybe he goes on a 40-day fast or something like that, you know, maybe crawls on his belly across glass, you know, while praying the rosary, you know, and then God sits and goes, oh, I'm finally convinced this guy is really serious about receiving the vision, and he goes, and he unzaps it into the brain.

And that's the direct revelation he's talking about, okay? No joke, that's what he's referring to. But we continue. Here's the trick. If you don't have a vision for where the church is supposed to be going, then you can call anything a win.

You can call, okay, well, yeah, that's what we intended to do. Well, that many people showed up for that. Well, that's what we intended to do. Well, this is what our church... Yeah, notice, all of this is just Perry Noble giving us what he thinks sounds reasonable.

This is called speculative theology. This is not biblical theology. This is just Perry Noble's just shooting from the hip, well, I think it's important because of this. And all of this is, you know, in the true sense of the word, total, complete, utter speculation.

Saul happened this year. Well, that's what we intended to do. But a vision, I think Andy Stanley defines it as a picture of what could be and should be. Yeah, and how does God define it in His Word? Where can I go to find the important vision casting passages in Scripture?

When you get that driving you, not only should this be, but this could be if we did this this way, when you get that type of passion and energy driving you, then it forces you to define the win. And I think that's the problem.

Yeah, where in the Bible does it say that it's really important that a pastor receive a vision so that he can, he's forced to define a win? Where does the Bible say this? Answer, nowhere. Many times with churches and church leaders is we don't want to define the win, so we'll just say that anything works, so we don't have to be held accountable.

And defining the win, is that important just for staff and volunteers, or is that important for the whole congregation? It's important for the whole congregation, because the people showing up every week are showing up because they want to be taught, they want to be ministered to, but really that they really do want to be led, and they want to be led well.

I remember when I first became a Christian, one of the things that attracted me to the church that I wound up attending, receiving Christ in, wasn't the music style, and it wasn't any of the things that I think churches focus on too much today.

There was a man of God in the pulpit, or you know, the stage, or whatever you have in your church today, who had a vision and said, this is where I believe our church is going, this is what we're going to accomplish, and this is how I think you fit into this.

There was a bigger picture, and I realized that I was a... So you get what he's just said there. He had a vision, and he cast the vision to let everybody know how they fit into the vision. Direct revelation, prophetic revelation, supposedly, from God.

Part of something bigger than myself, and that's pretty exciting to just the guy that was sitting in the pew week after week going, man, I need to jump in, I need to get involved. That's really neat to hear.

I mean, I know all of us want to know where we're going, and so defining the win for staff, congregation, or in any organization is so important for the leader to do that. I want to talk just a second about this idea, even this word, vision, because there are some people, especially in the church world, that understand that when you say the word vision, and understand what that means, but there are some that question this idea of a vision.

Why are you okay with that word, or why are you okay with the phrase having a vision? You know, it's so funny. I've heard that, Shane, and some people go, well, the whole idea of having a vision sounds very mystical, and I'm like, well, it's supernatural, and so if you're uncomfortable with the supernatural, then you're probably uncomfortable with the Bible.

So he just admitted that the vision he received, it's supernatural, okay? Direct prophetic revelation from God. Preaching the whole thing, I think a vision is a supernatural thing. In reading through Scripture, there is not one example of a man or a woman that accomplished anything significant that wasn't driven by a vision from God.

Okay, yeah, again, now here's the issue. Nowhere in Scripture are we told that pastors are to expect to receive an individual, unique, prophetic vision from God on how to do church and to define what a win is.

Nowhere in Scripture. So what he's doing here is this is hermeneutical gymnastics. Okay, well, we could look through Scripture here. Abraham had a vision, yeah. Moses had a vision, yeah. Paul had a vision, yeah.

David had a vision, yeah. So therefore, that means God's gonna give me one. Wrong. No, it doesn't actually follow, okay? The pastoral office already has a job description and duties that are associated with it, and Jesus has set the vision for the Church in the Great Commission.

Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching all that I have commanded you. Straight up, plain and simple. A pastor is somebody who's put into the office of the pastoral ministry, Scripture refers to it as a pastor, and it's God the Holy Spirit who calls them, and there are duties to preach the Word, proclaim repentance and the forgiveness of sins, administer the Lord's Supper, to baptize and to teach all that Christ has commanded.

There's a regular office for all of this, and nowhere in Scripture ever, ever does it say that a pastor is gonna receive a unique vision from God. So this is a complete Bible twist on his part to justify a brand new practice that is new, brand new, you know, new on the scene for the seeker-driven ecclesiology, and he's trying to make a biblical argument that, well, Moses had a vision, so I get one too.

No, nowhere in Scripture we led to believe that you're supposed to, as a pastor, receive a unique vision. Christ has already set the vision and what the Church is supposed to be doing, and we do that until he shows up again.

There's not one example. David was driven by a vision. Somebody needs to go whip Goliath's butt, and so he walked down into the valley and did it. Noah was driven by a vision. Somebody needs to build this boat.

Doesn't make sense to build a boat. It's never rained. We're in the middle of a flipping desert. I think I'm gonna do this. It was a vision. But where does it say that Noah was in a desert? It doesn't.

By the way, it saved his life. I would say that Noah would probably say that vision's important. Nehemiah was driven by a vision. Somebody needs to rebuild this wall. I'm sure that the people in Jerusalem had prayed about the wall, gone to Bible.

Yeah, again, show me the passage of Scripture that says pastors are supposed to receive a unique vision. In fact, show me from the writings of the church fathers how the Apostles taught all of the pastors that they put in place in the churches that they planted.

Show me from the writings of the church fathers the importance of receiving and casting vision. I mean, if this is really a biblical doctrine, then Christian pastors will have been practicing this going all the way back, wouldn't they?

Bible studies on how to build effective walls around cities that had been destroyed. But Nehemiah was the guy that actually did it. I would say Jesus was pretty much driven by a vision. When the Bible says he set his face toward Jerusalem, he didn't do that because of all the warm fuzzies that were gonna happen to him there.

He was driven by a vision. Paul was driven by a vision when Jesus knocked him off his horse and said, now I'm gonna show you how much you must suffer for my name. And then he wound up writing most of the New Testament, which, by the way, came out of his vision from God.

So I would say that a vision is supernatural, and if you don't have a supernatural vision from God, you're probably not going to accomplish anything in the natural that's worth mentioning anyway. Wow.

What a completely blasphemous and ridiculous statement, and a twisting of God's Word. Again, if pastors are supposed to receive unique visions from God, how come it doesn't say that in Scripture? If pastors are supposed to receive unique visions from God, how come the early Church didn't talk about the importance of casting and receiving vision?

Hmm? Yeah, so yeah, this is peri-noble, making it very clear. This is a prophetic vision, and what's his justification? Well, Paul had a vision, and you know, well, Timothy didn't. Titus didn't. Uh-huh.

In fact, they were doing what Christ told them to do, and Jesus cast the vision for the Church, and you know what they were doing? Preaching the Word, make disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching.

So I thought it was worth you hearing, and by the way, like I said earlier, what we're hearing here, not only is it not scriptural, it's of the same stripe. It's from the same tree, and it's a bad tree that bears only bad fruit, where we get the same prophetic insights like of Chuck Pierce.

So what do you think? Now, kind of piggybacking off of our segment that we did last week with peri-noble talking about, and it is revealing straight up. You know, those vision casting leaders, you know, they get visions from God, and this is what he said, and then you got to cast the vision, and Andy Stanley earlier this week explained to us the whole vision casting thing.

Well, that's not an individual responsibility. It's a team sport, which then kind of begs the question, how do you know if your vision that you're casting, that you've claimed to have received from God, is actually a vision from God?

Well, thankfully, peri-noble has taken the time to write a blog post about this, and it's entitled, How Do You Know If Your Vision Is From God? Now, before I read peri-noble's answer to the question, how do you know your vision is from God?

I would like to ask a few tough questions, okay? So here's question number one, okay? What are the biblical qualifications for a vision caster? Where can I go in the Bible to find the biblical qualifications for a vision caster?

Now, I know where I can go to find the biblical qualifications for an elder, a pastor, I know where I can go. You just look at the pastoral epistles, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Book of Titus, the qualifications for a pastor are clearly laid out.

Where in the Bible can I go to find the qualifications for a vision caster? I'm not familiar with that particular office, okay? Now, here's the next question. Now, does the gift of casting vision, now, does that come by the laying on of hands, or does God just zap the visionary?

I really would like to know, because, you know, how do you receive the gift of casting vision? And so, this is inquiring minds would like to know, okay? So here's the next question I have. So, you know, when you cast vision, you're claiming to receive a vision from God, when somebody questions or doubts a vision that a vision caster claims to have received from God, are they committing a mortal or a venial sin?

That's right, think about this. So, if you question or doubt a vision that a vision caster is casting, in fact, how does that thing go? How many visions would a vision caster cast if a vision caster can't?

Anyway, so when somebody questions or doubts a vision that a vision caster claims to have received from God, are they committing a mortal or a venial sin? This is important stuff that we need to be asking, okay?

Okay, next question, okay? So, do vision dissenters, do they go to purgatory or are they just thrown into the lake of fire? Now, the reason I ask this is because it's very clear that vision dissenting will get you run over by the bus, okay?

You're gonna find yourself completely out of a secret-driven community if you question or dissent to a vision. So, clearly these guys believe that it's a sin, so inquiring minds would like to know, if you actually doubt a vision or you are a vision dissenter, do you go to purgatory when you die or are you just thrown into the lake of fire?

Now, I asked this question on Twitter last night and somebody pointed out to me that nowhere in Scripture does it teach the doctrine of purgatory, and my response to that person was that there are just as many Bible passages that teach the doctrine of purgatory as there are passages that teach the doctrine of vision casting.

So that was my response to him. Okay, and so now here's the next question, okay? So what are the biblical tests to verify whether or not a vision that a vision caster is casting is legitimately from God?

Where can I go to in the Bible to find the test to see whether or not a vision caster is casting a vision that comes from God or if we're being deceived, okay? Let's see here, yeah, and you know, just kind of my last thing here, and that's this.

I've noticed that I'm having a very difficult time, and I mean that in the truest sense of the word. I'm having a very difficult time finding the passages that answer these questions anywhere in the Bible.

I wonder why that is. Could it possibly be that nowhere in the Bible does it teach vision casting at all? Just, you know, I throw it out there as a question for you to consider. So now let's go on to Perry Noble's blog post, and the question is, how do you know if your vision is from God?

Okay, so Perry Noble says, great question, here are a few suggestions. Now notice he doesn't say biblical passages, and yet Perry Noble in this blog post does not say, okay, here's what the Bible says about vision casting, and here's how we know.

He says, here are a few suggestions. Suggestions? I mean, really? All you got are suggestions? All right, so suggestion number one from Perry Noble, if you feel confident that you can accomplish what is in front of you with no problem at all, well, then you didn't hear from God.

No biblical passage is cited to back that up. Okay, suggestion number two, if no one is angry at you, then you didn't hear from God. Again, no biblical citation is provided. Next, if you don't have to ask anyone to sacrifice to make the vision come true, well, then you didn't hear it from God.

All right, if religious people are not steaming at you, blogging about you, and or leaving your church, then you didn't hear it from God. If you have the money in the bank to do what God has asked your church to do, well, then you didn't hear it from God.

And if every step is perfectly designed and nothing happens to totally throw you off along the way, well, then you didn't hear from God. And if somebody doesn't try to talk you out of what you are about to attempt, then you didn't hear it from God.

And if you don't stay up at night thinking about the vision, then you didn't hear it from God. And if your vision is in contradiction to God's Word, and by the way, vision casting itself is, isn't that weird?

Then you didn't hear it from God. In other words, I would just basically make the argument that because vision casting is contrary to God's Word, vision casting isn't from God, and those who claim to be receiving visions to cast to their congregation didn't hear it from God.

That would be my conclusion. So there you go. I mean, there's Perry Noble discussing. How do you know if your vision is from God? And of course, vision casters believe their vision is from God, so there you go.

Now I'm envisioning that it's time for us to take our second break, so we're gonna do that. If you'd like to email me regarding anything you've heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith, you can do so.

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When we come back, a David Crank sermon. Don't want to miss it. We'll be right back.

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