GOP Platforms, IVF, & Post-War Consensus

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We are live now on the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris This is an unannounced podcast.

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So I'm not sure how many people will have we'll see I wanted to just follow up on some things.

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I didn't get to yesterday and Clarify a few things too because there were a few questions after I stopped recording

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If we have time, I don't think we will but if we do I will go into a Russell Moore podcast that I listened today

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And a few clips from it. So we'll see if we have the time to go into that I listened to Russell Moore and I listened to a

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Michael Horton Pot. Well, I don't know what it was. It was a panel discussion gospel coalition put it out and Later in the week.

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Hopefully I'll be able to get to that and we can talk about that as well But I'm here for questions. If anyone enters the chat and has any questions about anything that's been going on I will do my best and the limits of my abilities

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So the first thing I was going to talk about yesterday that I didn't get to talk about is the GOP Platforms and this is related to the broader discussion about abortion pro -life and the future of the

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GOP on this particular topic and I I have hope that I've never heard anyone else articulate this but I have a little bit of hope

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So I want to give you a white pill Can I do that because I think we need it but this isn't just some kind of Pollyanna I'm As I see

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Donald Trump say things that are wishy -washy about abortion. I'm just holding on to some kind of naive

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You know dream that I have that's not what it is I actually see something that I think could be a game changer.

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So I want to share that with you and T James Boone you were the first one to leave a comment here

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Yeah, he made it for another live broadcast probably because I'm doing them later in the evening At least I did yesterday and today

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Your ears are not gonna bleed T. James if we talk about Russell Moore, I promise you you're

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I'm not gonna talk about it There's only like three clips. I want to share from the podcast that he did. It's Really?

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There's not a lot of new things. He keeps recycling the same talking points, right? So But yeah, we're gonna have some white pills hopefully or at least one white pill

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So I want to show you something and I'll express why I think this is significant and how this relates

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Indirectly to I think the life issue so This is the Republican platform 2012.

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We'll go but we could go back farther, but let's just go back to 2012 I'm gonna type in the phrase equal. Okay, so this will bring up equality or equal second

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Paragraph the pursuit of opportunity has defined America from our beginning This is the land of opportunity

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The American dream is a dream of equal opportunity for all and the Republican Party is the party of opportunity now

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This is better than equal equality in the sense of equal outcomes but this is also a problem and I know many others have made this point as well, but We don't even start out with equal opportunity now if you mean equality before the law in the sense that if you violate a

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Moral law that's encoded in our legal statutes. You will be punished for it. That's one thing, right?

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But this is a bit ambiguous and I think there's opportunity here to Insert whatever you want

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There's enough room in something like this to have the proposition nation and if you listen to this podcast for any length of time

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You know that proposition nation is this understanding of America and it often flows with American Exceptionalism of a certain variety.

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I believe in a different variety of American exceptionalism based on the Sacrifices and the heroes and the things that actually

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I think truly Really made America prosperous and great and all the rest But the what we often hear the version we often hear is that there are these ideas

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These ideas are embedded in places like the Declaration of Independence and perhaps other founding documents like the

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Constitution maybe the Mayflower Compact, but mostly the Declaration of Independence specifically the second paragraph and This idea of equality and this idea of quality is what

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America is And even though the founders didn't live up to this it was for later generations as Lincoln also said himself it was going to be later generations who would eventually realize this and This is just grown and grown and grown to the point of anyone can really be an

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American. It's not a place Really it's not a people really it's not anything, that's intrinsic to the

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Tangible temporal world that we live in it's more of this abstract concept. That's somewhat nebulous of equality

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And so this is I think serves a politically useful it can be a politically useful tool for both sides because When they talk about equality if you're against a particular policy that's supposed to provide equality

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Then you're in danger of not being an American. You're you're out of step with everyone, right? So That's a very brief primer on what the proposition nation is

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But you have language this comes up ten times that the term equal not saying it's wrong every time

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But it's it's heavily laden with this Particular phrase it says we are the party of the Constitution the solemn compact which confirms our

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God -given Individual rights and assures that all Americans stand equal before the law Which I'm that's probably the only equality that I'm really willing to defend publicly

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I'd have to think about it I think that equality before the law or yeah equal worth in the eyes of God I'm I'll defend those things but when it comes to other kinds of social equality,

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I I just see the left using these things to forward its own goals for egalitarianism it says

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We affirm the right of students to engage in prayer in public schools, I'd have equal access to public schools

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Equally equally important. Well, we'll say nine times because that's not really treating equal in the same way

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Here's another one in this country The rule of law guarantees equal treatment to every individual including more than 1 million immigrants to whom we grant permanent residence every year

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Now now you're starting to hear a little bit of wait and hold on, you know Equal treatment to every individual.

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Okay. What does that mean 1 million immigrants to whom we grant permanent residence every year now Maybe there's no problem with this.

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Okay, which is fine. I'm fine saying okay There's no problem with we've decided as a country to come together and say we're immigrants

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We're gonna treat them the same way we treat Citizens we grant them permanent residence and then they become part of us.

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There's an assimilation process We've all agreed on what this is. I don't know that there is agreement on this quite anymore to be quite honest

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This is back from 2012 but you can see though that this equal is used throughout this as a high noble moral principle and Equalize the tax treatment of group and individual health insurance plan

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More money alone does not equal better and that's not I will say we'll say eight times. All right, so that I'm gonna discount that Let's see here, what else do we have that I want?

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Okay, so a lot of these other statements aren't about equality in the terms of equal for law equal outcomes or Equal opportunity but but you do see this coming up a few times in the document and it's also tied to the intrinsic to fundamental to basic to what

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America is now in 2016 if you type this in equal

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You the term comes up 14 times and again, it's near the beginning It says we affirm as a declaration of independence did that all are created equal endowed by the

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Creator with inalienable rights to life liberty in the pursuit of happiness Which is fine that is part that is in the

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Declaration of Independence I just wrote a paper or a section for my book Two weeks ago now a week and a half ago on this and I I think most of us like 99 % of the time

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You hear this brought up Should I say 99? Okay 90 % of the time you hear this brought up It means something completely different than what the founders were thinking they were thinking

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Equal in a state of nature. They were not thinking that this meant

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Equality in domestic social institutions. I think there there was no thought probably further from their minds and in fact they make this very clear the next year when

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Vermont petitions the Continental Congress the same Continental Congress that approved this language and says hey,

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New Hampshire granted us lands and It's their New York is giving us a problem and saying these lands belong to them and they're violating our

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Rights our inalienable rights and so you just wrote a you know, a Declaration of Independence What are you gonna do about it?

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And the Continental Congress basically writes back and said well actually what we were doing and that was we were representing 13 distinct

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Corporate bodies states and how and how their rights their rights that they would have been afforded under the

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British Unwritten Constitution were violated by England and not defended by the king

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So they were saying that we were representing these corporate entities the body politic.

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We weren't Representing individuals with their gripes. We weren't it wasn't about domestic institutions and This is one of the things

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I think that's very confusing but and I'm not saying the error is present in this They're just quoting it. But oftentimes when it's brought up,

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I think it's portrayed inaccurately It says it talks about competition competitiveness

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Well, that's using equal again in a different way, but so I'll skip over that one Let's see that God bestows certain here.

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It is inalienable rights on every individual Thus producing human equality. Okay. What does that mean?

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No that government exists first and foremost to protect those inalienable rights that man -made law must be consistent with God -given natural rights and that if God -given natural and inalienable rights

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Come in conflict with government court or human granted rights God -given natural inalienable rights always prevail inalienable

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By the way, just means cannot be given up These are this is what God endows people with in a state of nature this according to the founding generation

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How they would have thought of this it's what they're given in a state of nature without any government without any they haven't entered

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Society yet. This is just what you have When you enter society though, you give up some of these or I should say give ups not the best word

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They get amended some of these get get given to the government or society to then administer

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So like I'm trying to give it a good example like in a state of nature There is nothing prohibiting a minor from driving a car.

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Okay That's there. That would be Transporting oneself

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Freedom of movement. This is something that would be I guess in a state of nature something that no one can tell you

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No, it's something that God has given to you and government should secure this government should

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Guarantee that you're able to have the freedom of movement. Let's say all right. I'm using a more modern example if it were written today

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But we know in society when you enter society There's other people that you have to be concerned with and so there's safety laws

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There's minimum requirements for getting a driver's license. You can't be 15 and get one You have to be 16 or in some states 18 or 17

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There's regulations that come with this. So you actually amend those inalienable rights in a state of society right and that the inalienable rights that they were complaining about the things that they were saying shouldn't be given up were inalienable rights that were amended or They were secured under a

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British Constitution So that that's the context of the founding So there is this you have a slight individual aspect in the argument at the beginning

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But then it very quickly moves into and even at the beginning actually it sort of just deviates for a moment.

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It starts with It's it's these state entities. It's these corporate bodies that are complaining about what the king is doing to a bridge their rights as Conglomerates not as individuals who are

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Saying that you know, they're not making sweeping statements about Domestic relationships, they're not in fact slavery being one of the ones that's brought up most often the second -to -last complaint they have in the

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Declaration of Independence is that Lord Dunmore in Virginia the royal governor is fomenting slave insurrections and the way the reason

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He's doing that is because he is telling them that if they join the British Army They will gain their freedom and then they will be free and they can fight against their masters

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This is a real problem right for the colonists and they're complaining about this and saying this this is violating our rights well, how is that possible because they were mediated through a tradition this

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British tradition and and so I just think that Let's see

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Well, we'll keep reading here But I think that that historical background is important in understanding this and of course if this is too much if this is just overload

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I will have more information coming about that in due time to so, you know exactly

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What the founders meant what at least the Continental Congress meant when they were talking about this

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But it wasn't it wasn't the main thing that was remembered about the document. It wasn't seen as the cornerstone

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It was boilerplate stuff. It was like at the time. It was not something that was seen as Super innovative it was at all.

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In fact Jefferson later writes and says we weren't trying to be innovative So now it's seen as this great experiment this new idea of Liberty this new grand thing that a minute that it was farthest thing from their minds

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But let's see. I think you get kind of that treatment here Let's see. I think

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I lost my place All right, so it says God given in natural in animal rights always prevail that there's a moral law recognized as the laws of nature nature's

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God and that the American government is to operate within the consent of the governed We are also the party of the Constitution the greatest political document ever written

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It is the solemn compact built upon the principles of the declaration that enshrines our God -given individual rights and ensures that all

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Americans stand equal before the law Defines the purposes and limits of government and is the blueprint for ordered

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Liberty that makes the United States the world's freest And most proper prosperous nation most of that I think is not bad

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But I just want you to notice how emphasized that term equal is It says we are reaffirmed the

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Constitution's fundamental principle limited government separation of powers individual Liberty and rule of law we denounce bigotry and this is interesting because this is

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If the founders would have been bigots by their standards of 2016, right

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We announced bigotry racism anti -semitism ethnic prejudice and religious intolerance Therefore we oppose discrimination based on sex race religion creed disability or national origin and support stat

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Statutes to end such discrimination as the party of Abraham Lincoln. We must continue to foster solutions to America's Difficult challenge when it comes to race relations today

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We continue to encourage equality for all citizens and access to the American dream Now this opens up all kinds of policies when you say that You want to get if you want to encourage equality for all citizens and access to the

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American dream? What does that look like it says merit and hard work should determine advancement in our society

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So we reject unfair preferences quotas and set -asides as form of discrimination our ranks Include Americans from every faith and tradition and we respect the right of every

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American to follow his deeply held belief now I can keep reading but you do see in some of the language here.

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This would mean a multicultural setting of some kind Lincoln did not understand that line in the

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Declaration of Independence The same way the founding generation would have understood it the way they were using it

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Lincoln In fact even said at one point that this was for later use But this was put in there for later use which would have been news to them.

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It wasn't even a governing document it wasn't Certainly not like the Articles of Confederation of the

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Constitution later. So This has become though the cornerstone this has become equality has become the animating feature the definitive feature of America it is and It is used for just about every policy.

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There's has to be some kind of an element of equality between peoples Equal access to school facilities.

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Let's see. The equality comes up quite a bit in this Let's see if I want to focus on any of these We Will also reform the equal just access to Justice Act to cap and disclose payments made to environmental activists.

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Let's see here That's not really related Again It talks about again

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It was amazing it keeps talking about this the federal government should not be a partner in that Talking about a certain policy thing.

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I'm just gonna skip ahead as the Constitution gives It no role in education at the heart here it is of the

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American experiment lies the greatest political expression of human dignity the self -evident truth that all men are created equal that they are endowed with their

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By their creator with certain unalienable rights and among these are life liberty in the pursuit of happiness that truth rejects the dark view of an individual as human capital a possession for the creation of another's wealth

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I I'm not sure that was in the minds of the founders, but the sentiment we can kind of get around the sentiment here like They You're talking about a society that had chattel slavery right when you're talking about the founding generation

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In fact, it was written by it was came out of Virginia, right? and some people think and they're probably right somewhat based off of the preamble in the

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Virginia Bill of Rights so They didn't see things the same way

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All right, I think we're gonna all right that's pretty much it for what I want to focus on now Is this stuff a glaring glaring problem?

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Is this stuff? Well, you know, is this the worst thing in the world that this language is in there? I don't know.

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I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. But what I'm saying is The Democrats emphasize this and I've talked about this before in their party platforms

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If you go to their 2020 platform, it literally starts with America is an idea. What is the idea? It's equality if you go to their current platform

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It says very similar things in the documents. The Republicans are holding back equality

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And and they're there to ensure equality and the Republicans for years were saying kind of the same

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Similar language you're using similar language saying nowhere about equality sometimes the differences was parsed with well, they're about equal opportunity and the

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Democrats are about equal outcomes, but I Think greater minds than me have made the point that Equal opportunity if you want to level everything so everyone has the same opportunity

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It inevitably is going to flow into equal outcomes And we we saw that to some extent with the civil rights movement.

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That was in the beginning. That was what they were Advocating for we want equal opportunity and what it eventually end up with quotas

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Affirmative action and I would say historians will look back and see 2020 and everything that happened during BLM as an extension of this

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It's still going on Because if you don't have because the idea is that humans are

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They have unfair advantages and we need to Somehow make it so they don't have those anymore.

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And if we correct that those unfair advantages and everyone's going to Eventually wind up the same.

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So it's a flaw that equal opportunity If we just give people equal opportunity, the flaw will be corrected

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But surprise surprise humans are still unequal even if you try to set those metrics

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So eventually it's the question arises. Why are things still unequal? The fact is no one starts even with equal opportunity.

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No one because God has created everyone different mentally physically He's put people in different geographical areas where they're gonna have access to different things

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Everyone has unique Experiences in this world that will affect them you can never set things

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So that everyone will have equal opportunity. It's just impossible that most you can do is say the law is going to treat citizens in a way that as much as is possible so that As the law is able to catch people who break it they are treated equally by incurring fines and penalties and so forth but even then we know that there are all kinds of situations that make that perfect equality before the law in a human society impossible you're going to have not just evil people who take bribes and people with connections and those kinds of things but you're going to have people who

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Commit crimes and do things that they shouldn't do outside of the watchful eye of the rest of society and So it's something to strive for equality before the law but equal opportunity as It's often defined and often thought of and equal outcomes

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I don't find either of those things the way they're commonly portrayed as being something that's possible

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And when we try to do that, we end up running up against Creation basically and and so Anyway all that to be said when

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Christians talk about equality before the Creator they're talking about something I think that's it can be somewhat similar to what the founding generation would have thought of as People being created equal that there is this in a sense an abstract equality people have in a state of nature

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God has given them equal worth God has given them access to preserving themselves

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Self -preservation, but when they enter a state of society when they're living with other human beings the understanding was that these things become

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Amended in some way. There's different rules for children. There's different rules for women in that society. There's different rules for men

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There's different rules for slaves in that society. There's in our own society. We have different rules for different categories different Privileges and so forth for even in our tax code for People with kids for seniors for right.

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So these are all things that Are these equal? No, they're not But there's good reasons behind many of them.

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All right. So John why are you waxing long and eloquent about this? Maybe it's not that eloquent. But why are you telling us about this?

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I'm bleeding up to this I See what we just talked about is the seed of a lot of progressive measures to try to come up To say that America is intrinsically this so therefore we need policies that even

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Trump's IVF thing right now is basically kind of this it's it's You know, there's some couples who are struggling to have kids.

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We need to make everyone else pay for them to Access IVF and stuff, right? These are the kinds of policies that you'll see not just on the left but on the right

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What was the justification for even invading? Iraq we need to give them equality That wasn't the whole justification, but that was part of it that they are under the thumb of a dictator

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So we're gonna go in there and make them Americans, basically. I Think a lot of bad stuff has been promoted and I don't have time to get into all that But if you go along with me on that point

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Check out the 2024 GOP platform Which is titled to make America great again

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And I want to show you something. I type in the phrase equal Hmm, it comes up three times.

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That is significant and there was no platform in 2020 So that's why I didn't skip over 2020.

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There just wasn't one three times Common sense tells us clearly that the Republican Party must stand for equal treatment for all likewise

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The Republican Party must ensure that equal application of law to all regardless of political affiliation or personal beliefs

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So it's equality before the law It's not tied to it says common sense tells us that's experience.

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That's tradition Basically, I mean, that's that's the it's in that neighborhood. They're not saying that It's just interesting that they're not framing it in these abstract terms as much and they're not saying this is intrinsic to America or like that that or that's you can boil down what

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America is to equality of some kind Um, that's it then they say universal, you know school choice

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We want to expand 529 education savings accounts and support it homeschooling families equally.

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That's it. That's it for the whole document So what do they think america is then right if it's not equality? If it's not this notion that all men are created equal

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And that's american exceptionalism. What is america? Let me read this to you This is the first paragraph of the new republican platform

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Says our nation's history is filled with the stories of brave men And women who gave everything they had to build america into the greatest nation in history of the world

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Generations of american patriots have summoned the american spirit of strength determination and love of country to overcome seemingly insurmountable challenges

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The american people have proven time and again that we can overcome any obstacle and any force pitted against us

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In the early days of our republic the founding generation defeated what was then the most powerful empire the world has ever seen

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In 20th century america vanquished nazism and fascism and then triumphs over soviet communism after four years of the cold war

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I'm going to keep reading. This is great. I'm just telling you. This is really good Some of you might think what's the big deal i'll explain

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But now we are a nation in serious decline our future our country. Sorry our identity Our identity listen to that our our identity

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And our very way of life are under threat like never before today We must once again call upon the same american spirit that led

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Us to prevail through every challenge of the past if we are going to lead our nation to a brighter future And then it goes through, you know how politicians, uh betrayed us allowing our borders to be overrun uh all of the things that they so let me let me just um,

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I want to keep reading but let me let me just uh, I'm too excited here tell you what I think's going on here

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There is a shift happening and it's freaking out some people, but I actually mean i'm here for it. Okay I'm hoping that it lasts i'm hoping this doesn't just die with with trump or I don't think it totally will

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I think The imprint is there America and this is the difference between the emancipation in this narrative i've talked about and the

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Sacrificial narrative america is a place of heroes America is a place of sacrifice.

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America is a place of real tangible men and women who endured things

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America has an identity and it's a people And it's what they've accomplished And they exist within some borders

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This is this is america. They have defining characteristics That are uh in in real life visible intangible people

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You might call this populism I don't know what other words. I mean some people might think it's fascism

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I also noticed you might have noticed it too. They went from the founding generation and they skipped to the 20th century They didn't even talk about Uh, I don't even let's see if they even talk about lincoln

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I don't even know if they talk about lincoln or the civil war any of that. They just kind of Yeah, lincoln's not even mentioned

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Not once this um I think the reason that this is good is because this particular

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Phrasing Says something very different about america than the other two documents.

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The other two documents are more abstract propositional Distant they're

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They're nebulous. They can be used to justify Anything really this is about this centers what the politicians should be doing on how does it benefit real tangible people?

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That live and work in this country that have a history to them This is the ourselves and our posterity right from the constitution.

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This is there's a history there's it doesn't mean that there's not processes of assimilation and that kind of thing, but there's

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You can't ignore the fact that this is a there's a real people here And and they deserve better and they've been abused and mistreated by the ruling class

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What does this mean for abortion i'll tell you I'm encouraged on the life issue

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It's not the only one obviously the his implications for the border issue and all kinds of things but on the life issue

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I'm encouraged even though this particular platform um softens some language it um

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Let's just say trump trump did some bad things from From my understanding trump did some bad things.

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See there there was uh, at least in some of the previous uh Platforms there was an attempt to Have some regulation on the federal level trump has gotten rid of most of that in the party platform

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He wants this to be a state issue now. It's overturning roe v wade This was always going to punt most of the things back to the states

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But he wants he wants to kind of I think it's probably uh, because of the

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How unpopular the issue is he wants to win elections? I mean, that's what he said. I talked about that yesterday in the podcast

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That's what he said back in april. We got to win elections. This isn't a popular issue But he wants this to be a state thing.

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Okay I get that here's the thing though foundationally speaking like think think root level if you think

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About america as a tangible people in a tangible place and you start

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Conforming everything else policies to this notion that it's not about some abstraction when you're in abstract land and Really?

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It's not very far from fantasy land when you're in that world and you're thinking through Hmm.

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I wonder what the eggheads think would be best in their with their theories and we should just impose those things

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You're not thinking as much about tangible people. You're thinking about Satisfying math equations not really math, but you know logic

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Uh, you're thinking of satisfying some theory that someone came up with But when you're thinking about actual tangible people and they're the ones you serve and then it dawns on you

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That many of these people are dying at very early stages through abortion pills through abortion procedures many of them in ivf

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Related to ivf procedures they're dying because of selective reduction in these things

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You start realizing They're americans, too. These they're part of this this tangible thing

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Now, maybe that doesn't do a lot for some of you. This does a lot for me though. I actually think

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That if this takes root over time Inevitably the republican party if they really believe it is going to have to become more

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Anti -abortion and more pro -life. They're just gonna have to Uh if they stay in abstract land though,

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I think They don't they're not required to as much Because look you can make arguments the democrats do this all the time

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They make arguments for we need more access to abortion because that's about equality, right? And then the anti -abortionist will come back and say no equality means

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Uh, there's um, we need equal protection and we and i'm not saying we you shouldn't use that terminology or that's wrong or anything

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I think it's fine to use it. But if you're if you're basing the whole thing on Some notion of equality whatever notion it is instead of hey, it's just intrinsically wrong to murder a human life

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That's it. That's it. It's not it's not even about It's not about equal treatment. We want equal treatment

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When it comes to murder or that I cross the board, but it's not that's not the thing that makes it wrong It's not because it's a violation of equality.

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It's because it's a violation of the imago de And what's the image of god? It's something that exists.

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That's very real in every soul and every person they have this That's why it's wrong and you think oh

33:25

Is america an idea or is america? people People with an imago de something very real that they have that you can identify in other people you can't just I mean all the dictators in history use some notion of equality to justify killing people because we need uh, it's not fair that they're alive they've taken too much if they're

33:51

Taking resources that kind of thing. Whatever They should they forfeit their life to satisfy some notion of equality

33:58

But when you're trying to satisfy not equality But the god who designed you and gave you worth because you were made in his image.

34:06

It's a different thing altogether And I think the republican party platform Ends up continuing to hold this language

34:14

And it can resist the urge to put nebulous views of equality. There are so often abused misinterpreted

34:21

I think that we have a shot, uh on a ground level. I think the the poison pill from the left's perspective is there that's my

34:31

My I hope that helps some of you that helps me. I don't know. Tell me if it does or not I'm taking any questions tonight.

34:37

Uh So did you see twitter gc? I don't I don't group chat. Is that did you see twitter?

34:43

Is that what gc means? I don't know. Did I? Watching from the dominican republic.

34:49

Eric. Johnson says t. James boone says i'm all here for the i'm here for the white pills. Good. Good. Good uh leftists believe

34:58

The saddled created the horse and not the other way around There must have been something

35:04

I said, I don't remember George, w bush created no child left behind goal was equality and education co -sponsored with uh, ted kennedy red kennedy.

35:12

That's funny Uh, matt borish says this and that is a great point matt matt by the way is leading music

35:18

At the conference coming up. We have the men's conference fundamentals conference .com. You don't want to miss it

35:23

It's coming up in what now three weeks you need to sign up. We're getting close But that's a great point the no child left behind was all about equality and we're worse off now than we were

35:33

Before he started that Um, all right, let's talk about uh, oh

35:39

I I have to mention something from the program yesterday I haven't actually I don't listen to most of my programs. I haven't listened to this but someone said

35:45

That I made a mistake and I need to correct this now um I don't think it doesn't sound like I made a mistake that I have to like delete the podcast for because I would if I had to if I if I said

35:56

You should go murder children and I that's not what I meant But I that was the meaning I would delete the podcast.

36:01

I don't want to encourage anyone to do anything wrong Obviously, but I obviously didn't say that or or imply that but I did

36:08

Um confuse something apparently and uh when you're talking about ivf there is a lot of technical jargon

36:14

And yes, i've read a lot about this. Okay um, i've consumed a lot of christian resources about this and yes, including abolitionist resources,

36:21

I've I'm not saying i'm an expert at it and i'm always open to new resources But there is a lot of technical information

36:28

In fact, I was talking to someone in a chat group who I respect highly on this who's an abolitionist and he wants to ban it

36:34

And um and frankly I do too I think under the conditions we're in now if I had a switch that I could just ban all of ivf

36:40

I would do it because There's a very narrow way to to to to use this

36:46

And for it to be ethical I think in any way. I mean the things associated with it more often than not are not ethical but um that being said, uh, i'm not trying to make excuses for myself, but um

37:01

This person I respect told me hey like because I think I was saying Fertilized was

37:06

I saying fertilized embryo and he's like all embryos are fertilized And I I meant I was confused fertilized egg fertilized fertilized embryo.

37:15

Same thing embryo fertilized egg but I okay, I he understood what I was saying, but It is important to have your definitions and your technical jargon, right?

37:24

So I guess I blew it on something on one little thing I said, uh selective reduction and I wasn't talking

37:31

About selective reduction when I said it I was talking about something else

37:37

So I posted what I meant to say And um, it was an email a very gracious guy.

37:44

I said Uh, I said I got an email saying I referred to early embryonic loss, which is what

37:49

I was referring to as selective reduction Uh, i'll correct and clarify I said on the podcast tonight, which is what i'm doing now

37:55

It doesn't affect the argument I was making. Um, which was that this is present in both

38:01

IVF cycles and natural, you know, just having a sexual relationship and you're going to have uh early embryonic loss and the estimates are that 50 to 70 percent

38:13

Of embryos are lost in both. Okay, so whether it doesn't We don't know that we we don't know of any difference.

38:20

It makes it seems like it's about the same In IVF as it is a cycle as it is, uh in a

38:27

Just a natural cycle as far as we know. Um This is something that naturally occurs.

38:33

I remember I was at the uh, north University, what is it university of north carolina? Uh duke it was duke university years ago and there was a guy who came out it was a

38:44

I was Trying to evangelize and stuff and this guy comes out and that was his main argument Why does god do all these abortions and he's like, you know, 70 percent of these embryos are they're lost in the womb before they can implant and or um,

39:01

Or sometimes they they will implant but then very quickly especially in twin scenarios you have

39:07

Uh 10 to 20 percent of the time, uh with twins, you'll have two In fact, I have a friend that just had this happen.

39:13

He had two and then it one of them is Is lost and That is referred to as natural reduction or spontaneous reduction

39:24

So I was confusing my terms because I have all these terms floating around there's natural or spontaneous reduction

39:30

There's early embryonic loss and then of course there's selective reduction selective reduction though is very different. This is what happens in IVF It's evil.

39:37

It's murder. It's wrong When they will take these embryos and they will say well you have 10.

39:44

Let's say hypothetically And we We overstimulated you and made you produce 10

39:50

You only want five or you only want three or you only want one whatever The case is we're going to just delete

39:58

You know these five and they'll use clinical language that distances themselves from what they're actually doing

40:05

They're they're killing they're killing a an embryo A blastocyst a zygote

40:12

Depending on the stage and so This is something that is evil. That's wrong obviously

40:19

Um, so I just wanted to point that out that I was talking about. Yes It's not as far as we know.

40:25

There's nothing different in IVF as there is in a natural cycle when it comes to early embryonic loss

40:30

So if I said yesterday if I use the term selective reduction instead of embryonic loss that is on me.

40:37

I apologize for that Um, that's not the term that I meant I I said the wrong term there so um

40:44

I I someone uh on Uh twitter was saying that I I never really defined what

40:50

IVF was to that. I was just saying I went through this cartoon and said look all these things that are associated with IVF or often

41:01

Come alongside of IVF are immoral or have opportunity for immoralities or ethical dilemmas

41:07

You but none of them are intrinsic to IVF in other words You can have someone who navigates it and I and I said in italy i'm not saying they're perfect but there are laws in italy that uh

41:19

Severely reduce a lot of these ethical dilemmas because they regulate it very highly in italy so, um, i'm not going to reinvent the wheel and give you the podcast

41:28

I gave yesterday, but Uh, I did want to just give you kind of my working definition. So IVF is a mechanism where an egg is retrieved and Fertilized by sperm outside the body and then transferred into the uterus.

41:41

That's pretty much it. That's what IVF is Now the stimulants the hormones they give to women so they produce more eggs uh freezing embryos, uh sperm collection

41:51

That's immoral using pornography and these kinds of things uh selective reduction, which I just explained these are

41:57

These often often often like in most cases on some level most of these accompany

42:04

What I just described as IVF And so that that's why if I had a switch to flip and say well, let's just make it illegal.

42:11

I would flip it No question But it's not they're not necessarily intrinsic to the process and again the point

42:17

I was making yesterday and this is why I wanted to say this is that It is very important if we're going to make the argument socially politically as anti -abortion people, which is where i'm at We can't just Frame it as anti -ivf

42:34

If we just frame it in a very simplistic fashion if we don't actually target the actual ethical problems and we just uh

42:43

Say IVF I think and I know because there's there's Whatever many of you think the number is of people who have used this

42:51

It's probably more a lot of people now are using IVF. I think there's probably some underlying issues.

42:57

There's probably Environmental factors maybe even immunizations who knows some people say the plastics are causing

43:03

Infertility, but there's an infertility crisis that we are in It's one of the things i'm hoping that uh, kennedy if he gets in, you know

43:12

He wants to make america more healthy, right? Let's solve this somehow I don't know what what the deal is, but we need to be informed.

43:18

We need to know what's going on somehow so um, I know There's many

43:23

I guess crunchy they call them of housewives who are making sure that they're not using plastic and they're

43:31

Uh eating they're using vegetable washes so that they don't have pesticides and they're not doing all the immunizations with their kids

43:38

And I mean there's a whole movement now that really was launched mostly in 2020 or at least it got popular because of this kind of thing now um

43:47

Because of that because of the infertility whatever the cause is There's a lot there's a growing

43:52

IVF Uh, there's also obviously the the big, you know, when you hear about in the news, it's like celebrity couples that are using surrogates it's homosexuals, it's but there's a whole lot of people that aren't in those categories that are

44:06

Catholic that are christian and the point I was making is that you're You're not going to be able to come to them and just say like IVF is evil, right?

44:14

Especially if they're ignorant number one Uh, and they don't understand Or number two they actually try to navigate this ethically and avoid some of those

44:23

Moral dilemmas that I talked about but you're still using IVF So it's more prudent of us if we can come up with ways

44:32

To target the actual ethical dilemmas and what i've said is that I think the biggest ethical dilemma with IVF Uh that trounces all the other ones is the selective reduction

44:44

It is the discarding embryos That will not be used. That's direct. It's a direct murder, right?

44:51

so Um now that sounds clinical that sounds if there's maybe there's a better term, but that that process

44:58

If that can be targeted first That's evil. That's wrong. Let's drum up. We need to make that illegal.

45:05

You shouldn't be able to just kill people Right, uh, this is the same as abortion.

45:10

Let's treat these embryos these zygotes these blastocysts as humans I think we make a lot more headway than instead of let's take this whole process and then just say we're anti IVF Not going to make sense to people ignorant about those ethical issues

45:25

And it's going to probably cause and it's more people than you think people who try to navigate this ethically

45:32

It's going to probably cause them it'll turn them off, right? So we can elicit their support.

45:37

I think maybe i'm optimistic, but we can elicit their support We can also educate people about what's actually going on in many of these clinics if we target the right thing

45:47

And I think it's more accurate. That's my whole argument There you go Uh, all right.

45:52

I'll take questions on this i'm in tears Due to relief it sounds like the gop is finally beginning to care even if it's out of fear for their own survival um, these are all from a big yahuda, uh, it sounds like The gop is finally beginning to oh, you already wrote that.

46:07

I guess I wrote that. Uh, okay. Hold on I think that homosexuality and dysphoria are being influenced by our poison food rfk mentioned this pollution is increasing

46:15

Sin, I think that's probably true I I maybe 10 years ago. I would have said what are you talking about?

46:21

Now, obviously it's moral at the at the baseline. This is a moral issue But I will say this.

46:27

Yes when you are uh ingesting hormone disruptors plastics those kinds of things and When women are taking in, uh more testosterone and um

46:41

Which I haven't looked into all this deeply but apparently like if that's happening if there's a hormonal thing going on here

46:48

That would make sense to me that that would contribute to some confusion on gender and these kinds of things I don't think it's the main cause but It's a contributing factor.

46:55

I'm sure And maybe it's a significant one you know, maybe it really is, uh something to figure out so All right, let's move on uh,

47:05

I don't have a lot more to talk to you about I don't think i'm going to get to the russell moore stuff. I do want to talk about the post -war consensus.

47:11

Okay? Uh, let's talk about that. I'm going to pull up my copy of reno's book return of the strong gods

47:19

And um So this guy named daryl cooper was on tucker carlson yesterday and if you haven't noticed if you're not on X or facebook you might not know but this created a large outcry al moeller said this is a

47:35

This is a line too far going after churchill because that's what daryl cooper did He went after winston churchill in one short segment.

47:41

And of course he talked about the jonestown cult He talked about a number of things but there was a section on world war ii And daryl cooper is a popular podcaster martyr made is his podcast.

47:51

I have listened to his series on jeffrey ebstein That's the only one i've listened to and i've started I started listening to his series on appalachia and then stopped but He's a very good podcaster he like It's not like my podcast where it's a different kind of podcast where I am

48:07

Talking to you in a conversational mode. He is very scripted,

48:14

I think the whole thing's probably written out and It is long form like some of the episodes

48:19

I think are seven or eight hours I mean it is long long form. It's audio book level stuff really

48:26

But it keeps your interest in ways audio books. Don't it's brilliant what he does And I think the epstein thing

48:33

I listened to was absolutely phenomenal It was the best treatment of the subject i've ever seen or heard and So I didn't know about his world war ii stuff.

48:40

I still don't because I haven't listened to it All I know is what I heard on tucker That said he criticized winston churchill and what did he criticize winston churchill for?

48:50

um Instigating world war ii. I think he called him the chief villain of world war ii Which of course that's what made everyone lose their mind, you know hitler's the chief villain now

48:57

I said on x actually Maybe tojo is The chief now my grandfather was in the pacific theater

49:05

I just know the japanese what they did in the baton death march the rape of nanking the way they treated chinese

49:12

Uh the way that they even fought in battle against I mean, they were the kind of people that would uh you know, you're

49:20

I don't know what else to call it it's like suicide bombing right and and like iwo jima and some of these islands that marines would go into and then they you know come out of caves or ambush them, you know from the ground and they just blow up and Um, they didn't mind forfeiting their lives.

49:36

Uh, they didn't mind. Um they they didn't mind grotesque and and Is torture too strong a word?

49:42

I don't think so torturous ways of treating their prisoners Human life did not mean the same thing to them

49:48

As even in you know, you say they didn't to the nazis either yeah, well in the case of the nazis though, they had to they had to Think about the groups that they were persecuting in different terms um the japanese kind of like across the board had had a uh

50:09

A barbarism to them I suppose you could say um They even

50:14

I mean look at the way they even Treated themselves uh with the harikaris and uh, the committing suicide if The allies were getting too close.

50:25

So, you know honor killings these kinds of things It was a different culture, but it was a culture that did not

50:31

I mean It didn't value life in the same way that western cultures do western cultures had to have to classify humans as something other than human or They have to come up with these unique justifications for certain groups

50:44

But it's an exception whereas I think in japan. It was more of a rule uh and so I I don't know why the south the specific the pacific theater seems to get ignored somewhat i'm just very aware of it,

51:02

I think because of my grandfather, but There are some really brutal things that happen there now that aside from that, you know, most people don't think it's hitler hitler is

51:11

The the chief villain and of course, you know, there's a great case to be made for that I would not ever discount someone or refute like say you're wrong for saying hitler's the chief villain of world war ii

51:21

He did many evil things The reason daryl cooper said what he said about churchill though was not because and you got to go watch the podcast

51:32

It wasn't because of a moral Superiority, that's not what he was talking about He was talking about cause and effect so he was talking about What churchill did?

51:45

in he thinks fomenting provoking instigating world war ii is

51:51

We would not have had a holocaust. We would not have had Some of the negative effects of world war ii

51:58

If it wasn't for the fact that there was a world war ii and without winston churchill There would not have been a world war ii.

52:04

That's his point Now, how can you say that? um This isn't a new thought and this way

52:10

I haven't uh I think for some people this was when they heard this they couldn't believe it.

52:16

I've heard this before um, most notably in pat buchanan's book and i'm not sure if their views are exactly the same but uh, daryl cooper cited the fact that It was

52:27

I think the day after two days after winston churchill came to office So world war ii has only been going on I think a few months at that point.

52:34

This is early 1940 He orders a bombing of germany where uh, daryl cooper says they're just bombing civilian areas.

52:44

They're bombing the black forest there These aren't military targets and this was and churchill does this to provoke germany into attacking them

52:52

And I think cooper might even said they should germany initially showed some restraint but churchill wants a war

53:00

Um pat buchanan's main argument on this which I don't think cooper brought up Is that Uh churchill wanted a war but one of the things he did there was two things

53:09

He two major things there's more than that, but there's two major things He guaranteed poland's security, which is something that england really didn't have the resources to do

53:18

Which was foolish of england knowing that germany was going to go into poland But now kind of like similar to world war one you have these alliances and now you have to honor the alliance the second thing though Uh pat buchanan,

53:32

I know says in his book um I think it's called like churchill hitler and the unnecessary war which covers world war

53:37

I think it called world war one and world war two. I read it years ago, but um, he says also churchill did things like he went into like the waters of under the jurisdiction of sweden and denmark to try to put land or not landmines but mines,

53:54

I guess in the in the water there and things like that which um early on And that was it forced germany or I guess no one put a gun to their their head and said you have to maybe that's how they felt but It inspired germany to invade these countries to ensure

54:13

That england was not, uh gaining a foothold in them to kind of like flank germany from the north and so this just It provoked everything and hitler was early on trying to gain a piece

54:28

Uh, and for people today are saying of course he was he didn't like he didn't like I don't know what you want.

54:34

I mean, it's just it's just history history's messy hitler wanted to gain a p He wanted an alliance really bad

54:40

Or if he couldn't get an alliance, he wanted at least like let's not shoot at each other with england and this was something that was rejected by churchill, so um, so this is cooper's argument is that churchill rejected these overtures and then he uh provoked germany and so This eventually, you know, they landed in a world war

55:02

There was a fumbling that happened and churchill was the main driving force there And so the evil that stemmed from that war this is mostly on churchill doesn't mean there's not blame to share

55:12

That's his argument people are taking this as a morally superior thing all over exo. They're saying that what cooper was saying is that Uh hitler was morally superior to churchill or something like that Um, in fact someone messaged me today and and said that this was uh, this was just pro nazi propaganda

55:30

It was a nazi perspective and um I don't think

55:36

I know pat buchanan wasn't uh, a pro nazi guy at all in fact, I saw him in an interview just Knocking down the nazis railing against the nazis from the 80s.

55:45

I I don't see this as uh, I I don't think this is a uniquely like a pro nazi perspective or something

55:52

To be critical of churchill in some ways I know churchill too. I was reading something not long ago that he wanted to treat germany fairly harshly right after the war and uh, this was in ways that you really again instant there was like an anti -german hatred that he had for Leading up to it for world war one world war and you can understand these guys.

56:15

I mean they fought in world war one there's There's bitterness already there and then world war two, right?

56:21

So It wouldn't be a surprising thing. A lot of other stuff is brought up about churchill and his moral defects, but I think that's that's the relevant stuff for what daryl cooper aka martyr made was saying on tucker carlson's podcast this

56:35

My I I was uh being somewhat tongue -in -cheek and uh and saying things on x to uh

56:42

I guess mock some of the pushback that daryl cooper was getting Uh and tucker really tucker carlson was getting so, um,

56:52

I No, I obviously I I actually pushed back against the neo -nazi thing today, too.

56:57

Maybe I should show you guys Or i'll just say it. I don't have to show you but on my browser. I have some of it pulled up um

57:05

I was I was mocking the fact that it seems like a lot of people their idea of history is like you have abraham lincoln mlk and winston churchill like these are and I I made a statement like these are not the

57:16

Founding fathers of christian civilization or the cornerstone that I said of christian civilization Um, and i'm i'm joking.

57:23

Okay. I'm just i'm mocking the people who are so offended that daryl cooper said this I don't know what daryl cooper's views are on the rest of world war ii or other things but i'm just saying based on Alone what he said on tucker carlson?

57:34

No, that doesn't make you a neo -nazi or anything like that um, one of the things though I had fun with uh

57:42

If I can okay, so I did I do kind of want to show people this i'm gonna i'm gonna show you guys, okay Let me see if I can uh, pull it up for y 'all

57:54

Okay so Um, I I think this is hysterical.

58:02

Uh, maybe it's just my own humor, but I want to I wanted to make people choose this so uh

58:08

I just put because I knew this I knew that churchill had written this I said martyr maid should have told everyone that churchill

58:14

Was a neo -confederate and dropped a few quotes from these books to prove it now churchill many don't know this he wrote a book on the american civil war in which

58:22

Let's just say people like jefferson davis come out looking a lot better than abraham lincoln uh, he complimented he says

58:29

I think he says at one point lauberty lee was the Greatest general the english -speaking peoples have ever produced.

58:35

I don't know if it's in this book or his book on english -speaking peoples, but Here's the other thing. This is the significant thing

58:41

If lee had not won gettysburg if lee had not won gettysburg if you want a wild alternative history

58:46

Go read this winston churchill wrote it Here's a quote from the end of that If this prize should fall to his imperial majesty emperor wilhelm ii

58:56

So assuming that world war one doesn't happen, I guess He may perhaps reflect how easily his career might have been wrecked in 1914 by the outbreak of a war which might have cost him his throne

59:07

So wait world war one was averted which means there's no world war two and no holocaust, right? And have laid his country on the dust if today he occupies in old age the most splendid situation in europe let him not forget that he might well have found himself eating the bitter bread of exile a dethroned sovereign and a broken man loaded with Unutterable reproach and this we repeat might well be have been his fate if lee had not won the battle of gettysburg

59:34

So what's the argument here? It's an alternative history Uh, if lee had won gettysburg the south would have won the civil war if the south had won the civil war

59:42

Then america would not I I guess and have entered world war one You got to go read this essay.

59:48

It just this is from winston churchill. And so if I had written this if Any person on the right today had written this they would be denounced as some kind of a crazy neo -confederate

59:59

How can you say that things that basically if the south would have won we would have had it made like hank jr

01:00:04

Says in his song, right? That's what winston churchill is saying How can you so I I just thought it was funny because I want people

01:00:11

I was trying to force people to pick I'm, like, all right So you want to defend winston churchill, you know, the neo -confederate, you know, choose one

01:00:17

Are you going to choose the nazis? You're going to choose the confederates. You can't have it both ways So that's just that's my humor and I like to um with the complexity of history when there's ideologues who just see everything in this

01:00:28

Super simple binary every time I like to throw a little wrench in every now and then uh, so Chase cliff says it's like they are scared of the truth about world war ii for some reason

01:00:41

Well, this is i'm going to end with this World war ii is our founding myth in many ways.

01:00:47

Okay, you might say wait. No, we have a founders We have yes we do but world war ii has a special place

01:00:52

And I noticed this when I was in history class in my grad school Oftentimes when you're looking at when you're reading sources today secondary sources on american slavery.

01:01:01

It is read through a holocaust lens Uh, I plantations are referred to regularly as concentration camps and it it's uh, it's crazy to me how this is transpired, but the holocaust has become the it is the worst most evil thing that has ever and of course it was evil, but It has become the measuring rod

01:01:23

And everything that gets put into this category of holocaust whether it's slavery whether it's uh, maga anti -immigrant, excuse me anti -immigration whether it's anti -civil rights whether it's

01:01:34

Uh, whatever someone wants to put in there, whatever the left says is part of this It ends up.

01:01:39

I mean it's I guess this is the f scale in a way the fascist scale, right? You know, you respect your parents too much. You might be a fascist, but whatever the left puts in this category of holocaust nazi fascist

01:01:52

It's given the scarlet letter at that point And once it has the scarlet letter then your obligation is to denounce it not even to think about it

01:01:59

And this is how they shoot down a lot of right -wing ideas and um it's

01:02:07

It seems to me that what's as far as a founding myth what has happened is

01:02:14

We look at ourselves as the good guys and having the moral superiority Mainly because we defeated the nazis whether it's england and united states the west that's what legitimizes our existence

01:02:26

That's why we exist. That's why we're gifts to the world That's why the world should listen to us and not them not putin right because putin's another nazi forget the fact he's fighting some bands of quote -unquote neo -nazis

01:02:40

He's the nazi because we've said he is because look there's a parallel hitler invaded countries. He's invading a country, right?

01:02:46

This is the moral play that gets played every time And the problem is it is one experience is one sliver of experience from human history

01:02:55

And if we compare if we put everything in that category every single thing Uh, there's a lot of things that don't fit that not every

01:03:03

Leader who wants to negotiate is chamberlain? Not every leader who wants to fight is churchill.

01:03:08

Not every person who invades the country is hitler not right these are things that we just we

01:03:15

When we have a current situation, we make saddam hussein hitler. We make Uh putin hitler we make bin laden hitler like we we just try that's the core evil.

01:03:25

That's the devil that's the the devil word, that's the The worst thing and you have to be opposed to it and that's part of our identity is we're opposed to it

01:03:33

And it's lurking everywhere. Um part of the problem now on the left is the founder founding fathers are now being put into this category

01:03:41

Jefferson's he's kind of a little hitler, right? Because you know he uh what he supposedly did with sally hemmings and I say supposedly because I did um

01:03:49

Go go check out the video. I did with mark halochak on the jefferson hemmings. He calls it a myth but uh, that's what we do and so Daryl cooper is challenging that a bit.

01:04:00

He's saying look this isn't The the allies weren't pure as the driven snow

01:04:06

Um, I think the allies with the exception of the soviets I think that yeah, they were the good guys in the sense that they they did have uh,

01:04:16

I think a moral superiority. I'm not saying every person in in that group. I'm not saying every world leader Uh, but I think as a general effort

01:04:24

I believe based on my and i've taken on the graduate level. I guess here are my bona fides I'm, not and I wouldn't say i'm an expert on world war ii, but yes,

01:04:31

I have taken A graduate level course on world war ii i've taken a graduate level course on the holocaust

01:04:36

I do believe the allies were in general the good guys and yes I'm, probably biased because i'm an american and I also have family that I knew personally who fought

01:04:46

Uh in the 15th air force and then my grandpa in the south pacific and I think that um,

01:04:52

I I think that what hillary was trying to do was as far as His I think his aggression was wrong

01:05:00

And obviously what he did and you know, what ended up happening with the holocaust and so forth was wrong

01:05:06

I also think something else and this is going to Maybe surprise some of you but one of the books that I had to read when

01:05:14

I was in grad school was called the bitter road to freedom And it's about the allied invasion british and american mostly

01:05:21

Of europe from I think it starts in d -day and then it goes through the victory in europe

01:05:29

And there's a few things I disagree with in it, but in general the story it tells is pretty shocking

01:05:36

Um venereal diseases breaking out in german towns because of the allies, um

01:05:46

Soldiers that were involved in Basically war crimes that were not punished for it

01:05:53

A whole entire cities level you can go look back at the footage of what berlin looks like Uh, what what many towns would

01:06:02

I mean? Um What's the worst one i'm trying to remember the worst one that they always bring up and now

01:06:07

I don't know why it's escaping me dresden dresden but the allies did

01:06:14

Not saying all the allies my family that I don't think did horrible things But there were some horrible things that allies did and that that's a book that I would commend to you now

01:06:23

There's horrible things That happened in war. That's that's the nature of war and that's what a lot of people will say as an excuse

01:06:30

The allies were the first ones it was america to drop atomic bombs on a on japan

01:06:38

Uh while they were having, you know had japanese in their own I guess Concentration camps in the united states.

01:06:44

I mean there's there's plenty to criticize About even the way the united states handled some of this

01:06:50

I think one of the points daryl cooper made though on the podcast and I really appreciated this is that Whenever you actually study history

01:07:00

And you're able to see things from multiple perspectives. You read accounts from multiple perspectives

01:07:05

You humanize people and you lose that double language You now there's some people it's hard to do that with and some people that i'm there's a uh, a book on john brown that I remember

01:07:17

I read and uh It's hard to do that with someone like a john brown to be quite honest, but even a john brown I can humanize him

01:07:23

I think he was an ideologue most of his entire life and He would have sacrificed probably his children for his his greater cause he did basically

01:07:33

I mean he did uh, he they lived in in poverty and squalor and some of them probably died from disease because of He was a bad businessman, but he was also so distracted by his abolitionist stuff.

01:07:45

Anyway Um, yeah, there's some really bad people out there, but oftentimes in in any conflict

01:07:51

You look at abraham lincoln. You look at jefferson davis. You see two humans And you can see things from their perspective in the conditions that they were in and why they might have made some of the decisions

01:08:01

They made you see george washington. You see king george. You can see why they would this is across the board

01:08:06

You may disagree with one of them. You may think he's wrong You may think there's sin there But you can you can see that there's also flaws maybe on the other side

01:08:14

You can this is the nature of history when you start digging into primary sources. I'm telling you it will happen to you

01:08:20

You can't avoid it and that's what makes history somewhat interesting because it is the story of human Of human stories and the cumulative experience of history makes one a wise person if you learn the lessons from it

01:08:31

It's much better than taking an abstraction like equality and saying the nazis were against it

01:08:36

We were for it world war ii and then comparing everything to that one event that is

01:08:43

Essentially the post -war consensus It is a simplified cartoon that compares everything and Again i'm not saying the allies weren't the right right.

01:08:54

I think they were i'm not saying that I wouldn't I would have been on their side, obviously um, I I think it's it's

01:09:02

Guys who want to go down the you know, the neo -nazi route and maybe that's not the right word Someone told me

01:09:07

I shouldn't use that word. I'm i'm fine. So whatever the nazis sympathetic to the nazis, whatever

01:09:13

You you're gonna yeah, it's a tough sell to americans when their grandfathers my grandfather, you know was uh was fighting

01:09:20

In that conflict and I know where my sympathies lie, but I also know there was a great movie called saints and soldiers years ago that tried to show

01:09:30

They were humans too and many of them in the uh, the nazi army were

01:09:39

They were they were ignorant. They didn't even know that there was a holocaust happening I know that that's now a lot of historians are trying to say everyone knew it

01:09:47

They didn't many of them didn't and they really genuinely thought they were doing their duty their their country and there's a mutual respect

01:09:53

Soldiers have and I thought it was a great film. There's another one. I watched I can't remember the title A few years ago.

01:09:58

It was about it was a foreign film. I want to say Maybe swedish

01:10:05

I think it was swedish or norwegian. I can't remember But uh, it was about these uh, nazi boys

01:10:13

Essentially that they're just boys and they were using them to Take minds out to that that I guess had been on the beaches and so forth and many of them died and it was just it was a heart -wrenching thing

01:10:26

To watch this thing, but it makes you see things from a wider perspective And I think that's helpful and I that's how

01:10:33

I see daryl cooper Acting so i'll get to the um comments here in a minute, but I want to just read for you this is from A return of the strong gods by reno and Many people are confused about Uh the post -war consensus.

01:10:50

I read this a while ago And this this term comes up 123 times in the book

01:10:57

Here's how he defines it. I call the atmosphere of opinion that sustains these anti -imperatives And these are anti -fascist anti -racist anti -totalitarian and anti -naturalist

01:11:06

Sounds like christian nationalism is scary, right? It says I call the atmosphere of opinion that sustains these anti -imperatives the post -war consensus

01:11:15

Although there has been political contention between the left and the right. It has been a sibling rivalry

01:11:21

As I will show the post -war left fixed its attention on moral freedom and cultural deregulation Seeing them as natural extensions of the anti -authoritarian imperative

01:11:30

While the post -war right focused on economic freedom and market deregulation for the similar anti -totalitarian reasons as the long

01:11:40

As the long 20th century ends this unified thrust is easier to discern

01:11:45

Not least because the establishment left and right are closing ranks to denounce populism

01:11:51

The post -war consensus is more than political Its powerful cultural influence is evident in the emphasis on openness and weakening and highly theorized literary criticism and cultural studies and universities often under the flag of critique and deconstruction

01:12:04

And calls for diversity multiculturalism inclusivity All of which entail weakening of boundaries and opening of borders nor is the cultural influence of the post -war consensus confined to the left

01:12:13

I'm going to stop reading there He makes some excellent points though. And what he's saying is that look there's a cartoon of history here

01:12:20

Which says you know what? The problem is with the germans. They just were too stinking proud to be german. That's what it is

01:12:26

They were just too proud of themselves and they got too big for their britches and um

01:12:32

And that's what led to them trying to uh take over europe and kill groups of people that they didn't like and if we get too

01:12:42

Nationalistic, you know to nativist to anti -immigrant to you know

01:12:49

Embedded in our own culture and against multiculturalism uh to obsessed or focused or privileging our own religion and not other religions

01:12:58

If we get too specific and we we look at ourselves as a people in a place uh

01:13:05

You know blood and soil, right if we look at ourselves more in these terms We if we appeal to those and not as this abstract proposition that anyone can be part of We're going to do the nazi thing again, and and we're always in danger of that and that's why you need

01:13:20

To be vigilant and to fight and it's always uh rearing its ugly head. I was uh It was interesting to me

01:13:26

I saw russell moore today on a podcast Saying so discouraged since 2020 that we've made so little progress and we all the progress has been reversed

01:13:34

And i'm thinking you took down hundreds of monuments you quote unquote reformed. I don't know how many police departments

01:13:40

Uh dei is like in every institution now and oh, yeah, we failed and the the far right is gaining

01:13:48

This is how they think the far right is always one breath away from taking over everything as long as there's some kind of a

01:13:54

Specific pride in one's own and in one's own in -group preference in a european context of some kind Uh, and that would include america australia south africa and well not maybe maybe for the boers in south africa

01:14:06

Then uh, we have uh, we have nazis. We have concentration camps coming. We have all these things

01:14:12

That is the post -war consensus this is This is why people freak out with christian nationalism with anything that they they say that sounds totalitarian

01:14:24

When it's like you're talking about blasphemy laws, you're saying hey, maybe pornography should be illegal Let's say it's like oh, it's totalitarian.

01:14:30

It's it's offending the post -war consensus That that's what reno is trying to say um

01:14:37

And that's what they're daryl cooper aka martyr made offended Because the lines are so specifically drawn uh hitler bad winston churchill good

01:14:47

Winston churchill the hero that saved the world And if there's any questioning of winston churchill like if this if you could have avoided world war ii

01:14:55

Right if this wasn't the inevitable thing Then what was where's our moral justification for existing in the first place?

01:15:03

And that's why I made the 1607 project because it existed there the whole time We are a people we are a place.

01:15:09

We have unique ways about us unique cuisine unique political thought unique music

01:15:16

Religion we have our own we have our own spin on everything and And we should be proud of those things and uh, and that's part of it.

01:15:24

So, all right, john carter Um john carter from mars because that's a great movie.

01:15:29

Um John carter for 999 says soviet atrocities took place and were well known long before 1933

01:15:35

How then could any moral justification be given for allying with them before any camps were established in poland?

01:15:41

Yeah, good point. Um The nazis also allied with the soviets though just remember that that's a conveniently forgotten thing but uh

01:15:50

The nazis at one time were also allied with them. They soviets played both sides of that war

01:15:56

John carter also sits for 499 if your pastor is more outraged by the holocaust deniers than christ deniers.

01:16:02

It shows his true religion. Excellent point Um, you know Lgbt people are the mission field we're always told by big eva, but you know

01:16:11

But what about our holocaust deniers the mission field should we make our church welcoming to holocaust deniers?

01:16:16

They they think the opposite on that right? And you know, I I just think that um

01:16:23

We the gospel goes out to everyone, right? but When it comes to things the scripture calls sin, we shouldn't be bending over backwards to accommodate it

01:16:32

Uh, I I don't Certainly don't deny the holocaust and I think that um, but here's the thing though if you even have a question about the official numbers if you have a question about the um,

01:16:46

Uh, you know whether or not somewhere like auschwitz had Uh gas, uh, you know use gas to not delouse clothing but to actually kill people if you if you ever question

01:16:57

Um Anything that's partly there's a whole bunch of things that are part of the official narrative if you question any of it

01:17:03

Then you are a holocaust denier, right? so, um, so I i'm you know,

01:17:08

I took a whole class I took literally a whole class on the graduate level a holocaust class and um

01:17:15

I don't want to get off on this tangent too much, but I will say this um, there was a whole book we had to read on it called why and it was why the holocaust and Uh, it doesn't really it doesn't really tell you the conditions of the weimar republic

01:17:28

I it was in through my own study later that I realized why jews were so vilified in germany

01:17:34

Uh it you know, the scapegoat theory and some of these other things don't seem to be the full picture

01:17:41

But uh, but anyway, I'll have to say no. I I totally we have primary sources guys the holocaust definitely happened and uh,

01:17:48

But i'm not the kind of guy that goes out there and says that if there's someone who has a different opinion on that topic, uh that you know, we should uh, we should excise them from our churches and not you not share the gospel with them or not minister to them or I I think those things can uh be talked about in conversations, but this is not

01:18:12

This is not the kind of in fact, actually I have a friend uh from years ago that I did have these conversations with because Uh, these were questions and um, and now everyone's questioning it but When you talk about actual blasphemy like that should really that should

01:18:29

The comparison shouldn't even be there Like for a christian right when you're blaspheming the lord of glory like this is this is a horrible thing

01:18:37

The bible talks about this in numerous places um so it's uh, and yeah, so I don't know

01:18:44

I I don't want to this is probably gonna be clipped and i'm gonna call the holocaust denier even though i'm not but uh it's it's one of those things that People don't want to talk about it because as soon as you even mention it

01:18:57

Everyone's got his heightened awareness and they're so afraid they're they're they're on eggshells because yeah

01:19:03

This is part of our founding kind of mythos And why we see ourselves as the good guys and we don't want to question any part of that story

01:19:10

It's a good white hat black hat story. And I think that I see I actually think historically

01:19:17

The there is an element of that there is a white hat black like there I am proud of what my family, uh achieved in world war ii in and i'm specific to world war ii because by the end of uh

01:19:29

The lives of I don't want to mention anyone specifically, but let's just say veterans I know and i've heard this more than once They thought that it was

01:19:38

Almost pointless what they had done at the time. It seemed like they had done a lot of good But uh, then to see what happened with the soviet union

01:19:46

And then communist china and how they became the world powers were still dealing with communist china and to some extent the former soviet union

01:19:55

Uh to see then what happened with liberalism in the west even worse degrading societies

01:20:01

Uh, some of them wondered by the end of their lives and still wonder. What did they what were they fighting? What was the point of that?

01:20:08

You know the whole at least they're not speaking german and some of them think we If we're dealing with things that are so much worse and it's the saddest thing when

01:20:16

I see veterans do that I have the utmost respect though for world war ii veterans and I mean brings a tear to my eye and inspiration to my soul

01:20:23

I mean I was raised on Legends of world war ii. I was I was raised listening to older men talk about world war ii

01:20:30

I was raised watching world war ii movies right and all of those things. I I want my kids to be you know, what

01:20:37

I want them to see Uh some of some of the films that I saw and read some of the books that I read and that kind of thing um

01:20:45

But i'm also mature enough to know there's evil people on the ally side And that's really

01:20:51

I think all this comes down to is uh, and there's mistakes that were made And that's the nature of war

01:20:58

And I don't think it's wrong for daryl cooper to have the opinion that uh, hey This maybe the war could have been avoided if winston churchill had not done this this and this

01:21:08

I'm saying he's making an argument and to just dismiss him as some kind of a nazi exposes. I think you More than it does daryl cooper in my opinion

01:21:17

So again, maybe watch tomorrow. Daryl. Cooper's gonna come out and say hitler was right There's something that i'm gonna have to be like, oh,

01:21:23

I didn't know that Okay. Well, um But uh as far as I know, that's not daryl cooper's position

01:21:30

In fact, I think he said stuff stuff against hitler if i'm not mistaken in the podcast. All right, i'll take any questions um

01:21:38

We we're getting into all the controversial territory. Isn't this great? I have to watch john carter.

01:21:43

Now. You definitely have to watch john carter. I mean it was that movie Is I love that movie and it's so maybe i'm weird.

01:21:51

It's rated very low I don't think critics liked it and fans didn't like it. I loved it. So go watch john carter

01:21:58

Uh, it's such an oversimplification of human actions motive bonds of all kinds many other factors are playing to every action or reaction

01:22:04

We have in life If this is true in everyday life, yeah Uh cat holtz most of my grandparents were in the navy in world war ii one was my grandpa's

01:22:13

One of my grandpa's was on the ship seen in the picture of the flag raising of iwo jima Can I tell you a story cat? I want to tell you a story about that the flag raising of iwo jima since we're nerding out on world war ii now

01:22:23

I was in lynchburg, virginia, and I had my own furniture repair business And I went to uh, literally it's right outside of liberty university.

01:22:32

There is this apartment complex Beautiful apartment complex, but it's it's almost close enough to be on the campus and I went there

01:22:40

And I I was servicing I think it was sofa or something in someone's apartment. It was an older guy

01:22:46

He was a world war ii vet and as is my habit if I see someone who's a veteran with a hat on or something

01:22:52

I say thank you for your service And I hope all of you listening, uh to this podcast I hope you do that if you see that and if you see a world war ii that out there today boy, that's rare But um, this was a few years ago and there were still a few of them around I I when

01:23:04

I went to pearl harbor I meant some I mean it was amazing. This was I don't think there's any left that are probably still out there talking to people

01:23:12

My grandfather died this year. He was a world war ii vet 101 years old Anyway, I went into this apartment and this guy had all these pictures.

01:23:20

He's a marine And I start talking to him and he shows me he said i'll show you my book my photo book And so he he has the picture of the flag raising of iwo jima and I said

01:23:28

Oh, yeah, you know you have that popular picture and he goes. Oh, yeah, he goes the photographer gave it to me I said, what do you mean?

01:23:34

He said oh the guy who took the picture gave it to me. I never realized it was going to become popular And I said whoa, hold on hold

01:23:42

The the person who took I don't remember you knew the name, but the person who took that picture

01:23:48

Of the flag raising of iwo jima. He goes. Yeah, I knew him. He just gave me a copy of it This was before any newspaper.

01:23:54

No one had That wasn't an iconic picture yet. It wasn't in dc as a statue and he had that picture that was it's a special memory and i'll be able to tell my kids and my grandkids that uh,

01:24:06

I was I I knew someone who knew the guy who took that picture, but he was a marine Uh island hopping in the south pacific.

01:24:12

He had he had one story. He told me of this japanese This plane this fighter plane that he lands

01:24:17

On on the island and he said they just he landed on the airstrip The japanese guy just casually walked out.

01:24:23

He's surrendering which is a rare thing, I guess and uh, um you know, they they arrested him and stuff, but All right

01:24:31

Kat also says I was cutting hair and this guy came in we started talking and we had some copies of a signed picture From the guys from the original flag raising he gave me to give to my grandpa.

01:24:38

Wow, you know, I wonder It's funny like maybe this guy knew your grandpa. It's just World war ii stuff is

01:24:45

I mean stephen wolf talks about this like it's a shared experience It's traumatic but it's a shared experience and when you it doesn't matter if one family's black one family's white one family's from california one family's from uh, nevada while the mat is too close alabama will say

01:25:00

These differences are somewhat spanned when you have these shared experiences and you can look back and say where were you?

01:25:06

In that conflict and it's one of the things that keeps see that more than the post -war consensus

01:25:12

I think actually is contributes to who americans are that shared experience I keep hearing from military men that i've met and talked to in many ways

01:25:21

I'm, thankful that circumstances prevent me from joining the military Yeah, I wanted to join the military too and circumstances prevented me from that mostly health things and um looking back now i'm glad um

01:25:33

Which flag raising the first or the second? I think I think they did it the second the photographs the second right because the first one there's no photograph

01:25:40

Uh, where's the balance of respecting veterans, but also being real about the state of our country Well You know,

01:25:46

I I think veterans from some of these like I see world war ii is legitimate We were attacked by the japanese.

01:25:52

They were in a pact with hitler and of course we were doing lend lease and these kinds of things but uh, but yeah, we were

01:26:00

This was we were provoked and we went to war. I think it's legitimate. Um You know some of these other conflicts since then

01:26:07

I mean look at the the last one. I mean afghanistan and iraq It gets a little harder. I think

01:26:13

You don't have to So so this is a this is something that's true There are veterans who go in for noble reasons the soldiers who go in for noble reasons believing what their leaders tell them

01:26:26

And they find out later that maybe they weren't given the whole picture and maybe the cause was not as just as they thought

01:26:34

And maybe the long -term effects of what they did were not good But you respect them for their willingness to sacrifice suffer deprivation to protect the people they love

01:26:46

Which is you? And so you thank them for their service. I think that's what you do um because and it's it's also it's a it's a part of it's a we it's an us this is this is part of You you were protecting us.

01:26:59

That's why you did it I I do think though This gets it's going to get more difficult going forward if we get involved let's say in ukraine something like that And it's obvious like we're not there for good reasons then and the soldiers, you know are not they're not duped into this, but they

01:27:20

They go along. They're like mercenaries then this does become something different I think um, it's just sad that we have to as americans start thinking in these ways, but uh,

01:27:31

You know, like I have family on both sides of the civil war, right? obviously, I don't know them they're not still alive, but I uh,

01:27:38

I think I probably have more southern Uh soldiers, but I do have some northern ones, uh from iowa and uh

01:27:47

Maybe from ohio. I know from iowa, but the thing is you know You have two sides.

01:27:53

I think that the north, uh, I think that lincoln should not have called for troops I I don't think that I think this could have been averted right?

01:28:01

Which gets me in the same kind of trouble that it got daryl cooper for saying that maybe world war ii could have been Averted if cooler heads had prevailed um,

01:28:09

I honor both though, I think there should be I have a union There's a union war memorial down the street from where I live right now and I would if someone went and spray painted that thing or Tried to vandalize it tried to take it down.

01:28:20

I'd stand against it. I really would um Because I the reason it's there

01:28:26

Is because of the veterans who did think that they were going in for a noble cause uh to to preserve the union was what they were uh told and um

01:28:37

I think I don't know. There's more I could say about that. But I I I do think that um,

01:28:43

You can spot honor on both sides of many conflicts our war with japan was legitimate not in europe.

01:28:50

Well kind of hard when as soon as you go to war with japan that Ties you into being in war in europe

01:28:57

Uh germany declared war on us so You know, we were They were in alliance with japan.

01:29:04

So what are you going to do? Uh The photographer who took the second flag raising picture of uejima died two weeks after the photograph was taken

01:29:12

He never saw it. This is well documented. Okay. Well That's the story I was told. Uh, so I don't know then.

01:29:18

Um, I didn't think there was a first I didn't I didn't think they uh captured it the first time so Um, so I I don't know how you square that then with uh, what this marine told me now you're ruining my story

01:29:29

You know that jason you're ruining my story. He told me the photographer gave it to him. Maybe it was

01:29:34

Some maybe it was confused or maybe it was someone who said they were the photographer. I don't know uh

01:29:41

I heard there was a another flag racing on a different location But it was a confederate battle flag by troops in honor of their south carolina captain.

01:29:47

This is true. Yes That was on iwo jima I believe and yeah, there was a confederate, uh

01:29:53

Southern cross that was raised on iwo jima. Uh, you don't uh often see that but yeah, i've seen the picture

01:30:01

A lot of soldiers in world war ii in vietnam even through the gulf war uh had

01:30:07

Southern symbols and it was they were considered american. It wasn't uh controversial at the time In fact, the military was using stonewall jackson

01:30:15

And some of these southern icons to recruit I wonder how long until the european civil war becomes the official name of the conflict as ernst note called it with his book

01:30:26

Yeah, and I wonder whether or not in the future world war one and world war ii will be linked in their treatments as the same war basically

01:30:35

My boomer uncle was outraged when I told him fdr's stated objective was to provoke japan into committing the first ever act of war

01:30:41

To overrule american public opinion to join the war against germany Oh, I really don't want to take the bait on it's not bait, but I don't want to go down that path this late.

01:30:48

Um, yeah, there's a lot of evidence that suggests that uh It was known that japan was doing this and fdr kind of let it happen or at least there's a lot of suggestion i've seen a lot of Compelling things that lead you to believe that I'll leave it there uh, they did still attack though and They they they did punch first, right?

01:31:09

I guess you could say well we didn't get you know, we were not going to supply them with oil and they needed that but And you know, we and there was the flying tigers and you know, we had units

01:31:18

I guessed in china helping out in limited capacities Didn't patton's grandfather fight with stonewall jackson.

01:31:26

I think so. That's probably true there's a lot of um Kerry roberts did a great speech years ago.

01:31:34

He talks about the hills that the confederate soldiers uh had to Take during the war and um

01:31:44

And that many of them they're uh, they're great, you know, their grandsons great grandchildren, whatever that they took those hills

01:31:50

And they were inspired by the ghosts of stonewall jackson and robert e lee and so forth And the reason it's compelling, um when he said that and it was in a speech

01:32:00

Was because the world wars were really the unification of the country. It was a fractured country in many ways

01:32:07

And the southerners proved they were they were willing to die for the united states were willing to fly that flag

01:32:14

After having such a contentious war and there was a reconciliation that took place and we're unwinding all of that Now we want we unwound all of it.

01:32:21

It's the saddest thing Romania hungary albania, etc begged us to free them from the nazis

01:32:28

They didn't want the russians to do that. Churchill wanted to do that Fdr nixed it Well, it's a whole lot better to be freed by the americans than uh,

01:32:38

The germans even knew this than the soviets. I mean that was a The eastern front was not where you wanted to be that was like that was a punishment to go to the eastern front

01:32:49

All right. I have to stop guys. I'm, so sorry, but um Um, I would suggest yeah read that book

01:32:54

It's a it's a starter pack in my mind for if you want to just see things in color a little bit more

01:33:01

Read that book, uh the bitter road to freedom And um, there's another book that's um

01:33:07

Oh, what's it called? okay, this is this is just world war ii this is a holocaust thing, but it's

01:33:15

Of all the books i've read a lot of books on the holocaust. Let me tell you so of all the books i've read though This one stood out to me the most ordinary men

01:33:23

And it's about these nazi death squads They would take these ordinary guys who weren't fighting in the war effort for whatever reason older, you know had issues whatever

01:33:33

And they would basically give them access to like prostitution and alcohol and all these things to numb their consciences and then basically go to them tell them to go to the forests and Kill jews they'd line them up and kill them.

01:33:47

It's a horrible thing And the psychological damage that that did to their spiritual damage really that that did their souls uh this guy tracked them and Said it was a crazy number of them that committed suicide later.

01:34:02

They couldn't live with themselves and um It's books like that that make me think like like this is something uh, the nazis did

01:34:12

To their own people these were people That they should not have been put in that position um, i'm talking about both jewish people that were killed but also uh and others it wasn't just jewish people, but also these these ordinary men and anyway sobering book and not for the the faint of heart, but uh

01:34:33

Yeah, oh gosh, but it's cool though in america makes a movie called the dirty dozen man Don't get me started on that stuff.

01:34:41

Yeah, it's very inglorious. I won't even repeat the name of the title. Um, Horrible quentin tarantino movie.