All You Need To Know About Custom Bible Rebinds with Jeffery Rice Of Post Tenebras Lux

Opening Remarks and Introduction of the Guest

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location, Dead Men Walking starts now. Well hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast.

Thanks for coming along, thanks for hanging out. Man, what a week it's been. Oh boy, and thank you for supporting us at dmwpodcast .com. Go check us out, learn a little bit more about us, and support the show if you want on our merch site.

So guys, it's been great. I've had a few weeks off, pre-recorded some episodes. I hope you've been enjoying those. We had Blake Long on with a book that he just published on When God Says No. We've had Dr. James White on.

We had Davis Yeltsin, an attorney. So go check out those back catalog issues over the last, oh I don't know, three, four, five weeks. Obviously we drop every Wednesday, and check them out because they were really good, and I think we have another good episode today.

I mean, a really good one. I don't know this gentleman too well. Uh oh, and we have children making an appearance on the podcast in the background there, which is fine. I have three myself, so that happens from time to time.

He's the pastor of Covenant Reform Baptist Church. He's the owner of Post Tenebrous Lux, which we're going to be talking about, and he's a speaker at the Shadows to Substance Conference coming up in a few weeks that I'm going to be attending.

And where's that at? That's Antola, Houma, Tennessee, I believe. It's Pastor Jeffrey Rice. How are you, sir? I'm doing well. How are you, brother? I'm doing pretty good. It's nice to meet you here. Yeah, definitely.

Digitally, okay. And then hopefully here in about a week or so, we'll meet in person. But just wanted to just wanted to bring you on because we cover everything here. Doctrine, theology, culture, politics, all from a reformed biblical worldview.

But we also get into some fun stuff. You know, over the Christmas break, we had well, we had the confused Calvinist and craft beer review. We have had leather workers on. We have had comedians that are believers on.

And so we cover different things. And this one's kind of a different episode, maybe not necessarily. Maybe we'll get into it later, a little more theology. But I'm really going to talk about what you do with your Bible rebinds and leather working, which I find absolutely just they're just gorgeous.

And I'm going to be ordering one from you pretty soon. But before we get into that, can you give a little bio on you just so people know about you, maybe family and and, you know, how you got into pastoring and things like that?

Just give us a couple of minutes on you. Yeah, well, you know, to begin with, I like to always say I'm a Christian before I am anything, right? I started reading the Bible when the towers fell in 9 -11.

And that began my journey into Christianity. Of course, you know, I was raised in church and stuff like that, but I never really bought into it. Ex-gangbanger. So I like to begin with, I'm a Christian.

I'm a husband and a father. I have a litter of kids and also raised my 16-year-old, well, my 17-year-old nephew now. So very busy with the, you know, the family life. But also I work 45 hours a week on Bible rebinding.

And I, and when my family goes to sleep at night, I stay up from about 8, 830 to about midnight, sometimes one o 'clock. I stay up studying, preparing messages and doing my own private study. Okay. So how long have you been doing the rebinds and did you have a previous vocation before that?

Yeah. So I've been doing rebinding for close to five and a half years. Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, about five, yeah, close to five and a half years. And I roofed houses for, you know, professionally for 25 years.

Okay. And I was really good at what's called flashing chimneys, right? So you take metal or copper and you form it around the chimney to keep it from leaking. And so I was really good at that. And me and my wife, we got a Schuyler Bibles when we got married.

And so I was just holding one one day and I was like, man, I bet I could make one of those. And my wife was like, you're crazy. You can't do it. So I sewed some things and bought some leather and about 20 bibles.

And she was still right. I couldn't do it. But after a while, I just, I just kept practicing. She was like, wow, you're getting really good at this. And so we started posting them and stuff like that.

And but, but it came down to the point, like in roofing, I came down with what's called banal positional vertigo. Okay. So, which is not good for roofing. Right. I woke up one morning and just passed out.

And then I stood up and it was as if someone, it was as if I was in a hamster ball or something and someone was shaking it up and I went out again. And I think it was three or four days. Like I could not get balanced.

Every time I would change from one position to another, the lights would completely go out and I would just fall to the ground. And so it turns out I was dealing with some PTSD, just a troubled childhood.

And, and so whenever, like it was, it was a big problem in my Christian walk, right? Like, you know, early on in my Christian walk, you know, I'm an ex game banger. I was, you know, really good and hot and hostile positions, you know, like fighting and stuff like that.

When I became a Christian, like I could not fight with my hands. And so whenever altercation would occur, I would run away from the altercation. Right. So in PTSD, you have what's called fight or flight.

And so because I couldn't punch somebody, I would just leave, right. I would leave before I'd end up punching somebody or something, you know? And so it was a big problem in my Christian, early on in my Christian walk, but finally being diagnosed with PTSD and knowing that it was something mental going on that was causing me to run away.

It started the greatest fight of my life, you know? So now when I feel the need to run, I don't. And I want to try to, you know, maybe not in that moment, but maybe an hour later, try to work things out, you know, in a conversation, whether it be if I'm, you know, having a disagreement with my wife or having a disagreement with whoever, right?

And so, but really getting into debating has helped me out too. So debating theology has really helped me to, to embrace confrontation. Sure. That makes sense. Yeah. So you're, you're kind of embracing it in a controlled arena too, which probably helps.

So it is confrontation, but yeah, there, there, there's not that thing of, you know, it's going to go so completely sideways, it becomes physical or something like that. Right. But, but concerning pastoring.

So I was ordained with the, you know, like the Pentecostal group. So, so say like assemblies of God, churches of God and stuff like that. So Trinitarian Pentecostalism in 2011. Okay. Right. In 2013, I, I left the church that was, I was involved with planting due to preaching through the gospel of John.

So I got the John chapter three and, and so I preached it like a reformed person, not really understanding the doctrine or anything. And it was my last message there. And I really didn't know what I believed.

I didn't know if I was a heretic or if the church I was a part of was teaching heresy. So I, I, I figured it was best to just figure out what I believed. And for the longest after coming to reformed theology, you know, it would have been really easy to get back into the pulpit with the Trinitarian Pentecostals, but I would much rather sit in the pew than to align myself with something I disagreed with.

Sure. But three years, so yeah, so right at three years ago, I was I had moved to be a part of a church that was reforming. And then they had me in their eldership classes where they were looking to me to be an elder.

The pastor steps down. This church calls me in. So this is during COVID. They call me in to interview me for the pastorate and asked me what I'd be preaching Calvinism. And I said, well, I don't plan on having a conference on Calvinism, but I, you know, I opened the Bible.

If it says, choose you this day, I preach choose you this day. If it says you were predestined for the foundation of the world, I said, I preach you were predestined. I said, I don't understand the conversation, right?

I just preach verse by verse. Right. And so they said, well, they're moving away from reformed theology. And so it was a big uproar. And we had, you know, no churches were meeting. And, and I just told some people that me and my family were going to meet and have services for ourselves until some churches started up.

And then a lot of families said, well, they're coming with us. And next thing I know, I get a phone call from a pastor I know in New York saying that he heard that I was planting a church. And I said, well, you heard wrong.

I'm not planting a church. And he was like, well, I want you, let's talk about it. And so their church was, was very interested in planting churches. And so I flew out there and preached for him and taught for him.

And they voted to send us out as a church and we're almost three years as a congregation. Wow. Very, yeah, that's a, that's, that's a great, great kind of journey. Yeah. Yeah. I came out of, like I've said many times in this podcast from a very young age, a more fundamentalist.

And then into my teenage years, we attended a church that was extremely Pentecostal and then worked through the doctrines of grace in my early twenties. And it's been a blessing ever since then. But so pastoring for the last three years with the church and then the business for five and a half years.

Bible Rebinding as Craftsmanship and Ministry

So let's dig down on this because I have a, we have a lot of listeners here. Most of them have Bibles, I would assume. Okay. I won't say all, but I'd say the mass, the majority of them have Bibles. And I just cannot get over is someone who is a little creative myself.

I'm a musician and, and, and have a creative bone in me, but I don't do leather work. These rebinds are absolutely beautiful. If you go to the website and you can throw that out and we will link up your website.

So when people are listening to this, they can even click on it during that and check it out. Um, what is that? Cause I'm interested in this whole process. What is the start to finish on that? Does someone send you in a Bible let's say, and they go, Oh, it's, it's tore up.

It's old. It's whatever I want. I want a new, you know, new cover on it. Do they send that in? And then do they pick what type of leather do you do multiple types of leathers or a certain one that's better than others?

Like what is that process? Can you, can you tell us? Yeah, well, of course I can send in a Bible, whether it's tore up or it's brand new. Uh, it's always better if it's brand new. Um, I mean, you know, the, uh, the leather is going to form around the, the block that you send in.

So if the block that you send in, the pages are just curled up, right? Well, the leather is going to form along with the block and there's really nothing much you can do with a, the Bible or the paper is curled up.

Right. I mean, if you ever see a Bible that's left in inside of a car, like say a back window, the way that the Bible swells right there, there's no unswelling. And so if, if people send me something like that, well, don't expect it to look like this.

Right. Right. And so, you know, you're going to get what you send in. If you want it to, to, to look like it came off the show on room floor, send in a new Bible, but we do rebind and, you know, use Bibles or whatever.

But yeah, so most part, they send in their Bible, they pick the leather, they pick the, uh, the color, the color of the leather cover, leather liner, uh, ribbons. Um, I mean, just basically we, we, we can almost do, we can almost do what you want, but there is limitations.

Uh, for the most part we do a cow skin, I mean, cowhide calf skin and goat skin. Okay. Yeah. What's the difference between those three? Is it just a look? Is it a field? Is one more workable than the other?

Both. I would say both, um, cowhide in my opinion, cowhide and calf skin. I used to like the goat skin better, but you know, even now we receive Bibles from the 1800s that's, that has a goat skin on it and it's still, it's not in great condition, but you can tell the goat skin has lasted.

I have yet to receive a Bible from the 1800s with cow skin, cowhide, but I'm not saying maybe they didn't use cow for this particular thing at that time. Yeah. But, uh, and so for that reason, I used to, to go with it.

And I think goat skin is good for more of a traditional rebound for more traditional binding. But as far as rebinding, my personal opinion, I think cow and, and calf is, is the best. It's easier to work with.

Okay. I think it has a better smell. Um, like, yeah, it, it scratches and, uh, like what, and, and like what, like say this Bible right here, so I could scratch it, but then I could lick my finger and rub it.

And the scratch is gone. Buffs it right out, huh? Buffs it right out. Yeah. Yeah. And then it just smells good. It smells like leather and it just, you know, they all open real flat and well, sure. So when you do something like that too, I'm guessing it's not just the outside.

There's the inside that needs to be, yes. I don't know the technical spine itself. The spine of the Bible has to be reinforced. Okay. The way that we do it, because like, if you, if you think about a car and a car has shocks, so if you drive a car without shocks, you're going to, the moment you hit a rock, it's going to tear something up.

It's the same way with a, with a Bible. So, so right here in order to attach the block, like, like you can see that line right there. And for those other things, that first, yeah. Yeah. So that's a piece of leather leather liner that's attached to the block of the Bible.

Okay. All right. And so when you open it, every time you open it, it, it pulls at the spine, like it's trying to rip the spine. Yeah. And so you have to reinforce it with a piece of cloth that wraps around it, that keeps that spine from tearing apart.

And then you have what's called an hollow. If you can imagine just like a toilet paper tape, something like that. Okay. It just flattened out. And, and it just like, it allows the Bible to expand when it opens just a little bit.

Yeah. So, yeah. So whenever it opens, it keeps the, the back of the spine here from breaking. Right. So, so, so the spine, like when you open it, it's still flat. Like that spine is not going to cave in.

And a lot of the old Bibles that you see that are brought in, they'll have like an arch to it because it doesn't have an Oxford hollow that keeps it from breaking. And so I put them. So if you get a button, I'm sorry.

So if you get a Bible like that with an arch, do you put an Oxford hollow? Yeah. Yeah. I put one in every Bible. Yeah. Yeah. This helps better. So is there different materials you use for the inside? And do you ever add pages note?

Can you add like a couple of blank pages for extra notes or anything like that? Or is whatever was in the previous Bible, whether it's new or used, that's what's going in the new rebind or do you ever add things to it?

Well, I can, and I used to, but I don't any longer simply because I'm so busy. Like if I have to do anything extra, it pushes my wait time way out. And so rebinding is getting really popular. And so I just kind of leave that for the guys that don't have as much business, right?

Like I really don't have time to do it just to be honest. So I kind of work, it's like a factory for the first two and a half days I make covers. And then on that third day, half of it, I reinforce the spines.

The fourth day I stamp and then I finish reinforcing the spines. And the fifth day I'll do the odd and ends of what's left. And then I put it together and bind it. And so, and I find if I have to add anything to that, it's going to take me another day or two to finish the process.

So if, so, so the most basic one you're looking at about a week. It takes me a week to do it. Right. And are you doing multiple Bibles at the same time? Yeah. So I'm doing about eight, eight a week, eight, nine.

Well, it depends sometimes, sometimes seven, sometimes nine, 10, like it just depends. So you're trying to schedule eight Bibles a week. So you're, you're doing that many Bibles. We're doing up to eight Bibles a week, just continuously, continuously, five, four hours a week.

Yeah. Now I've seen on the website, um, and throughout the website for everyone listening really quick, ptl, bible rebinding .com, ptl, bible rebinding .com. And we'll link that up. I saw some very beautiful like gold stamping you can do and some custom stuff like maybe in the lower right or lower left of the Bible.

And then on the, on the, uh, on the back of it, of the spine, what do you, what do you do in there when you do stuff like that? Yeah, that's gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I have what's called a hot foil stamp machine.

Okay. And so, uh, so whenever you're placing the letters in there, they're upside down and backwards. Yep. So I've gotten really good at reading upside down and backwards. The problem is, is I am dyslexic.

So there's been many of times where I, I mess up in stamping. And like you can see here that the Cairo and Hawks signal wind chase. Yeah. Yeah. So stuff like that, if you're throwing that in, obviously that's a charge extra for the client or customer, but that takes a little extra time too.

Well, the spine of the Bible, I don't charge anything. So, well, so if you get Holy Bible, the, uh, the initials of the translation with the logo, that's included. Oh, if you want the five solos or the doctrines of grace put on there, it can get a little more expensive.

Yeah. And from what I've seen, so I should just say for everyone listening to there's some, um, I mean, just reviews all over the internet of your work and, and I'm not trying to puff you up or, or brag on you or anything, but just very good reviews of people, just extremely happy with your work, meaning, um, I mean, just, just the handcrafted, the, you know, the way it looks, the kind of one-off, including some, you know, in our circles, some more, some more famous people, I guess you would say, even like a Dr. James White, who sang your praises on his show for, you know, for months and months, uh, which you will be speaking with him, uh, you know, later this month, which we'll get into.

Um, so what's the price range on something like that? Because if one of our listeners goes, yeah, I want to do a rebind. I think I'm, I'm onto this one. What's the price range. And you don't have to, you know, just give me a wide range.

So they, they can, they know, I know different size Bibles and things like that are probably different prices. And then two, what would be the turnaround for them to where they would be without their, how long would they be without their Bible?

And what's the turnaround time? Those might be two different times. I'm not sure if you have them send it in when it's closer to that time, but, um, price range and turnaround time for people listening who might be interested.

Yeah. So let's start with the ladder. So, um, the turnaround time. So it's right now it's three months, but so, so you would pay a deposit. So the deposit, the deposit is non-refundable. Right. And I've had a, you know, bear down with people on this.

Like it's non-refundable. If you pay a deposit, you will not get your deposit back. Sorry. I'm trying to feed my family. Right. It's non-refundable. All right. And then three months later, whenever it's time to do the Bible, you send that Bible in and you're going to be without it for about three weeks.

But the moment we call and tell you to send the Bible in, that's when you pay the remaining fee. Okay. You said I'm saying, and that price depending on the Bible. And again, so, you know, you can get a basic rebuying without the stitching without a lot of complications.

So when I'm talking about stitching, so I hand stitch all the way around the perimeter there. Yeah. It's all like everything's done by hand. Do you do a single stitch or like a double stitch? It's called a saddle stitch.

It's the strongest stitch there is. And then you see that go line on the inside. Yep. Yep. On the inside. Yeah. But that's extra. And then you have a line right here on that, on that perimeter. That's extra.

So, so you get a basic rebuying without any of the extras, a large basic rebuying for 250. Okay. Or that thing can get up to $500 depending on what you want to add. Yeah. Yeah. Accessorize. I mean, I don't want to nickel and dime people, but it takes time to do everything.

Absolutely. But it costs me close to a hundred dollars to do one. Yeah. So the leather is very expensive. Yep. I'm pushing close to a hundred dollars to do a Bible. That's what it costs me. Yeah. So, I mean, that's what I'm saying too, like very reasonably priced for the work that I see.

Uh, and it lasts forever. Oh, last forever. I mean, like, you know, right here, a grand. All right. All right. Yeah. I was going to say the one I'm holding was, uh, I think 1 ,200, you know what I mean?

And we're going to get a new one in two years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think this was probably close to, to, to 1 ,200. I got one more payment on it and this thing, and it's two years out. I got one more payment and it's not working that great.

All right. All right. This thing. Yeah. You know, let's say three, $400 last year, your whole life. And maybe your kid's like, and I don't care how you handle it. I mean, this thing ain't going nowhere last year, your whole life, you're able to pass it down to your children.

So when people start complaining about prices, I'm like, ah, come on. Do you get that? Do you get that a lot? Because that was one thing I wasn't thinking when I was looking at your work online and looking at pricing, I go, I'm not to me, uh, you know, I'm, I'm the type of person to where if I'm going to purchase something one, I want it quality and I don't mind paying the money.

You know, some people are in the mindset of buying five of one thing that breaks every year instead of just buying one thing, expense more, a little more expensive that lasts a while. So price wasn't really, I looked at, I went, that seems very reasonable.

Actually, when you look at other people doing not a whole lot out there that are doing your kind of work, I would say, or even your quality, but do you get that sometimes with people just don't really understand the, the, the quality and they might say, yeah, I don't, I don't, I think that seems too much or, or I think maybe in America too, we're in the thing of like, you know, cheap Bibles.

Like, yeah, we like to go into a bookstore and go, Oh, I want to spend 25 bucks on a Bible. And then we're complaining when the fake leather is ripping in six months and you know, yeah, we definitely get that quite often.

And I mean, cause you can, you know, go on to, I don't want to name anyone, but there's companies out there that sell goat skin Bibles and you can get them for like 125, but the goatskins crap, it stinks.

It's, you know, it's, you know, for the most part, I think they're, you know, not to bash on China, but they're China made goatskin. Our goatskin comes from Nigeria, our goatskins and our cowskins and goatskins can come from Italy.

I mean, just the, we get the best leather. Like we don't try to compromise with, with buying cheap leather. Like I can go to Hobby Lobby and get leather. Yeah. Right. But I wouldn't, but I'm not doing that.

I'm, I'm, I'm having leather shipped from overseas. Yeah. Right. And it's the best leather you can possibly get your hands on. That stuff costs money. My ribbons, right. I can go to Hobby Lobby and buy double sided satin ribbons.

Yeah. Yeah. I get these ribbons shipped from overseas. These are bears for ribbons. Each row costs me 20 upwards to 25 to $30. I mean, again, a Hobby Lobby $3, I can get a row for $3. Yeah. They have the best material out there.

My thread that I stitch with everything is it's high level. Everything is the numero uno, right? It is the best. No, I love that, man. I love when someone takes pride in the quality of their work. I'm the same way in the business I own.

Do you ever, did you ever look back and go, I went from, you know, putting flashing around a chimney to I would be into leather work and rebinds. Did you ever think that was going to cross that you would be in that business and running a business yourself like that?

Or is this just something the Lord dropped you in and it's worked out in his providence? Well, I've always been crafty. Always. I've always made things. I've always been able to stitch. Of course my wife taught me how to saddle stitch, but I can, you know, I've always been able to do stuff and I've always liked working with my hands, but you know, my dad was a roofer.

I can remember being three years old on a roof job, playing with trash, 11 years old. I worked my first summer with my dad, 12 years old. He was making me pay rent and buy my school clothes. Right. Right.

You know, and so like, like, I just felt like I was, you know, doomed to it, but you know, there's still definitely things I miss about it. The camaraderie that I have with, with, with the men, like, I don't have that now.

I get all, you know, so like the guys on my podcast that I have, I have two other co-hosts and we're constantly texting back and forth or talking. It gets on my wife's nerves. I'm sure it gets on their wife's nerves, but it's, but, but, but we're all, you know, you know, from that, we don't have that camaraderie really.

And, and so we just kind of vicariously do have that over the internet. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Throw off the name of the podcast for everyone. Open air theology. Oh, okay, man. I was just going to say, I like that t-shirt you're wearing.

It looks like it's, uh, uh, not a loud speaker. What does that call? Bullhorn. Open air, open air theology. Because we're all street preachers, right? We all are street preachers. We witness a lot, but you know, and, and so the point of it is, is that we get on the podcast street preachers and we talk theology.

Shadows to Substance and Covenant Theology

Love it. Well, let's shift gears here, uh, and talk about that because I believe you, your church is hosting, or you are hosting the shadows to substance conference, uh, which is in Tullahoma, Tennessee from, uh, what is it?

February 16th, 17th and 18th. You're going to be one of the speakers there. One of my good friends, Claude Ramsey is going to be one of the speakers there. Dr. James White will be speaking and doing a debate there.

Tell me how this came about because I think this is the first one, isn't it? It is well, well, we started meeting. So, so the conference is being hosted by open air theology. Awesome. Okay. And, um, so our church, when we, you know, like we kept meeting at, at, at different places that, well, we didn't have a church home, right?

So we would rent a day here, you know, like we started in one building and then we moved over to this other building and then this other building. And so it was just paying week by week for one day. And I always told the guys on my podcast, you know, as soon as we get a church building, I'm having a conference.

Right. And, and, and, and I think was probably in the building three weeks and I already started scheduling, trying to figure out a way to have a conference. How long have you been in that building now?

Um, let's see. This week will be my 23rd message and John that's so probably 25 weeks. Awesome. All right. So yeah, six, seven months. Awesome. Yeah. So, so you said schedule the conference, uh, and it seems like it's going good.

Tickets are selling. It's the first one. What are you going to be talking about? What's your subject? Can you give us a little teaser for those listening that, um, you know, might want to kind of get a sneak peek?

Yeah. Well, so it's going to be from shadows to substance. So it's definitely going to be about covenant theology. And I think, uh, so, so Brayden Patterson, uh, he, he's one of the co-hosts for open air theology.

He was a Mormon for 19 years. Wow. Yeah. And so he kind of made like an analogy that I really like where he, you know, he was preaching one day and he had his Bible and he stood it up and like the sun was bearing in where the Bible casted a shadow.

And he was speaking about how that shadow, it cast the, uh, in the old Testament and that shadow ends at the foot of Jesus Christ. Yeah. Right. And so he was using the Bible as a way of not, and he might've had it open.

I don't know, but, but he just kind of had like, you know, from the new Testament and there was a shadow that was casted cast and, uh, excuse me, my street language comes out every once in a while. That's okay.

And, uh, and, and he was just speaking about how the things in the old Testament, these shadows, they all come to the feet of the substance. Yeah. Jesus Christ is the substance. And so we're going to be looking at some of those, of course we can't touch on all of them.

Uh, so we're going to be looking at the shadows, the, the type and the anti type. So Jesus being the anti type, right? Yeah. So that's, so that's the main purpose. And then I think we're going to eventually focus on some, some more reformed Baptist, uh, outlooks.

And, um, I think we're going to have one coming up afterwards, uh, on theonomy. I'm not a theonomist. Okay. And so I want people to, to hear the other side, the other side of the argument. Yeah. Yeah.

Reformed Baptist Distinctives, Theonomy, and the Fulfillment of the Old Covenant

Yeah. We're working right now, uh, behind the scenes very soon to have kind of a friend, not necessarily a formal debate, but on here before I've hosted some things where we kind of have a conversation where we have, uh, people who, who are pretty well known and in each of their fields and, and kind of talk about that.

I think we're going to tackle theonomy pretty soon because with the rise of kind of, uh, the popularity of Christian nationalism and things like that, people are really starting to dig in to those type of terms and looking at that.

And, uh, I think it's very interesting because I'm kind of in a toss up situation there. I'm going, I could, I can see the biblical case for either one, but how it works pragmatically and, you know, it's an interesting subject.

So I'll hold to what's called 1689 federalism. Sure. And so, and so in our federalist theology that we hold to basically anything that's not new covenant. So also old covenant cannot enter into new covenant.

Yeah. Right. It's all shadows to the substance. And I know that James White is, is, is, you know, it's, um, has ventured into theonomy, Jeff Durbin. And I love these guys and I would have them approach my pulpit, like, like there's no hard feelings, right.

I just want people to hear the other side of, you know, there's other answers, right. We can be cordial. We can be friends. We can be brothers. We, I'm not throwing anyone out of the kingdom. I hope they don't throw me out of the kingdom.

Right. I mean, if they did, it wouldn't work, but, uh, but it's just to show there's other ways to, to view this. Right. And, and, uh, so, so if you just take circumcision or infant baptism, right. Um, well new covenant doesn't allow circumcision.

I mean, baptism to be, um, you know, the new doesn't allow baptism to be the new covenant circumcision, right. Circumcision is fulfilled in Christ. So there's a, a type and an anti-type. The anti-type would be our, our being separate from the world in sanctification.

Right. But the circumcision itself is fulfilled in Christ. The circumcision of Christ, according to Colossians chapter two is his crucifixion. Yeah. Right. And the, and our circumcision, which I'm going to be speaking on this at the conference, our circumcision is regeneration.

Right. But the sign of the covenant is baptism. So the sign of the new covenant, because I am reformed Baptist, I, I fully subscribe to the confession. The sign of the new covenant is baptism. Right. And so, um, and so we just want to show people that, that these things are not pointing, say the Pascal lamb, the Pascal lamb does not point to the Lord supper.

It points to Jesus. He is the lamb that was slain. Right. And so everything points to Jesus and then it finds its fulfillment in Jesus. And then from Jesus new covenant sacraments begin. Right. So baptism, Christian baptism comes from Christ.

Yeah. A Christian, the Lord's supper comes from Christ and they do the same things that the old Testament does. So the old Testament points to Christ. Um, everything from the new Testament points back to Christ.

Our baptism is this death is the sign of the death, burial and resurrection. When we take the Lord's supper, it points back to Christ's death. Uh, this is the body. This was my body. It was broken for you.

This is my blood that was shed for you. So everything points to this one moment in time in history. So circumcision doesn't find its fulfillment in baptism. It finds its fulfillment in Christ. The Pascal lamb doesn't find its fulfillment in the Lord's supper.

It finds its fulfillment in Christ and our new covenant sign or the new covenant signs and sacraments find their beginnings in Christ. Well, I was telling Claude, uh, Ramsey, a friend of ours that we were talking about.