Conley Owens Gets Challenged on His Dorean Principle

Moment. All right. Well, welcome everybody. We got Edwin Ramirez in the house telling me that I'm scheduling lives now and he's proud of me. Well, don't get used to it because I'm not the live the live guy.

But we'll give we'll give people a few minutes to jump on board before we get started. I got Conley Owens here. He's the man behind the Dorian principle. Say hi Conley. How's it going everyone? You know Conley you did you send me the book when you said you did or did you get send it late because I just.

Got him kind of recently. Oh, no, I sent them right away. That's so weird.

So Conley sent me his book like basically right after we did the last video supply chain man. What can I say? I got him like a week ago. So this is what it looks like now. Thanks, President Biden. How crazy is that?

That's that's like that's more than a month. Yeah, it was quite a while. That is so crazy man, I was wondering I was like, yeah, maybe maybe he forgot or maybe it's like. Maybe he makes the request and it just takes forever.

But now I don't know man. All right. All right. So we'll get started here. You know, we've got only a few people watching live. That's okay, though. Because I'm not a live streamer so we don't really have to wait for a whole, you know critical mass or anything.

The Dorian Principle and Selling Christian Ministry

But I wanted to get Conley back on. He wrote the book of the Dorian principle that we're talking about and it's about the commercialization of Christianity. The appropriateness of selling the message of God to people.

Whether or not that's appropriate the the book says no it is not so but but we had him on before we kind of explained the Dorian principle and Then you know over the the last, you know month or so I've heard some pushback and I've heard generally Conley.

Let me just say this generally the feedback has been very very positive.

That has surprised me. I I've seen that too and I I never thought that going into all this I expected Very few people to agree with us.

Yeah, so what I keep hearing Conley and you tell me a few this is your experience as well but what I keep hearing is like It's almost like a like it's almost like an aha. It's like I've always felt weird about this or that or this preacher that thing and he's a good preacher I love him.

His message is great. A lot of people mentioned John MacArthur in particular. Yeah, and and and they say I love John but I've always just felt weird that he sells this stuff and it's just kind of strange and and so so but people are like This this makes sense.

So the pot this feedback is positive, but there's there's a hesitation to kind of jump in and I personally that's how I feel as well. Have you experienced that as well?

Yes. Yeah. A lot of people have said similar things that they've had thoughts like this. But never known how to express them. And so this is really helping them and. Yeah, what you said about John MacArthur?

I've heard that a lot too and I think it has to do with a particular article that's been floating around lately about his Lavish lifestyle. I I think it's a little overblown. Sure, you know pointing out the property value of this house when it's California if you want to live in California known a home and you you bought it back in the 60s or whatever.

You know, it's not so I people are focusing on the wrong thing, right? They're focusing on the the amount and they're not focusing on the mechanism, which is which is where the real question lies.

Sure. Yeah, I would I would agree with everything there, you know, you know when I always see that kind of stuff you know like the Sneakers that certain people wear or like the watch that a certain person has and I'd always just like well That's just so weird.

Like I I'm not the kind of guy that buys expect. I think I've said on my channel I haven't bought like real a real like load of clothes in years I just have the same clothes that I've had for a long time.

That's not my thing. But like I've got other things right? So like let's say I decide one day to buy a bass boat and someone's like well 80 has a $26 ,000 bass boat is like it's like well, that's just stupid, right?

That's just that's really stupid. So anyway, so I agree that that's that's all weird. It's more about what they're doing to get the money not how much money they have. So someone could be breaking the Dorian principle and be basically broke.

Yeah, and there's always there's always concerns about the appearance of sin but in general. The work of a minister is a is a noble work and it should be rewarded. Well.

Sure, cool. So and just so calmly, you know before we jumped on live you mentioned, you know wanted to ask about you know. Sort of my what I'm thinking about everything and so I've told this is what I've been telling people calmly I've been saying I believe that the Dorian principle is I Think I'm convinced enough to stop taking money for my book, right?

So I give the book away for free if you want a copy of my book social justice Pharisees. All you gotta do is email me and I will get it out to you as soon as I can. I just sent out actually the last request from December.

I just sent him out this past week. So those are on the way and all of that. So I'm I'm not gonna be doing that anymore. I'm not taking money in exchange for for for the message anymore. That's awesome.

That's really exciting. Yeah. No, I'm I feel great about it and I kind of thought about it for a while and I just thought to myself look There's it's never gonna get any easier for me to do this. So if I'm convinced now enough for me to do it, I just got to do it now.

So I so I did it so I'm happy and I'm grateful to you for that. I'm not convinced enough to like take people to the mat on this though. Somebody asked me so sorry in a video. I was I had a guy on who had has done a movie about It's called enemies within the church and it's kind about like some of the some of the like Structures of power within evangelicalism and where the money comes from and all this anyway so someone asked me why why did I allow him on my channel if he's selling this movie and and like isn't that like kind of you know suspect for you and I was like Well, even if I thought it was which I wasn't sure if it really qualified.

But even if I thought it was I'm not convinced enough to be like what and you're in sin for doing this. So so calmly like I'm not saying your book isn't very very interesting and convincing in its own, right?

But I'm not comfortable enough to take people to the carpet for does that make sense? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I I've struggled with it myself, you know, am I ready to bind people's consciences with this one? You know, it's just not it's just not frequently talked about and I've gotten to a point where I'm convinced enough by scripture that this is something that I should be putting in people's faces and You know in a very gentle manner calling them to repentance on it calling them to Reformation.

Christianity, Capitalism, and the Dorian Principle as a Reforming Idea

Yeah, cool, man.

So, let me ask you this too because you know I've heard this from a few people where I'll tell I'll tell them about your book and they'll say like a funny comment like oh. That sounds communist or something like that, you know.

So he's against capitalism stuff like that. I've heard this a number of times and in this was from people who have not read the book. So just what it sounds like. Sure. So so calmly like are you against making money?

No. Yeah, I am. I'm 100 capitalist. Probably more than most Christians who call themselves capitalist. Yeah, I've seen the things you say. I I agree with them.

Yeah. Well yesterday I did a video. Make as much money as you can. Yeah.

Yeah, and I saw I saw a lot of Christians responding to Dave Ramsey trying to defend him saying well, yes I agree with him. Change in market, you know that that makes it. Okay, there's change mark even if there's not change a change in market if it's your property you have the right.

Yeah, so yeah, none of this is about none of this is about how we ought to Make money in secular affairs. This is about when we are acting as the servant of the king. What does he require of us? Sure?

Absolutely. Yeah. No that that's good stuff. So I would imagine as a software engineer, you know, you're you're totally fine making. You know a good living on your software engineering and I'm sure you would have no problem.

You know going to your employer and asking for more if you felt like you deserved it, right? Yes. So, there you go. All right, so Conley is not in fact a communist we've established that. All right, so let's talk about a little bit some of the pushback though.

What Counts as Gospel Ministry Versus Ordinary Commerce

So I've got a few things and I emailed you a message from someone. So one of my YouTube subscribers Who had had his pastor read it because he liked the book too. And he just wanted his pastor to read it and his pastor did not like him.

And so I sent you that email so we'll talk about some of that stuff. But Conley, what have you seen out there? What's the common pushback that you see that maybe would be helpful for you to address right now?

So the most common one especially on the comments on the last video that we did together. A Lot of people had questions and this wasn't so much pushback, but a lot of people had questions about whether or not.

This applied to just any time The gospel is present or any time the Bible is present. Like if you sell a candle and they stamp a Bible verse on it. You know does that count as a gospel ministry. And I would say that the essence of it is not gospel ministry.

There's a difference between saying that a gospel ministry and everything that attends to it must be free and then saying something that's not gospel ministry and Then if it's framed with the gospel. It's important how the Dorian principle is defined in the book because I said that if you take money as Something other than co-labor right as reciprocity.

You're undermining the sincerity of ministry. And so if it's important to communicate sincerity. You know is sincerity at stake when you're selling a candle know people understand you're trying to make a living.

You know, they understand what you're doing. It's there's no sincerity at stake. It's when you're offering the gospel to someone that is mean that the ministry that you're doing that you want to preserve that sincerity.

Yep, got you. So so I'll give you an example. So I don't know how it is in California, but here in New England for some reason. There's a lot of Christian egg farmers and I don't know why but every company that I buy eggs from I don't seek them out.

But they stamp a Bible verse on it, right and they've got a Bible verse. It's different Bible verses I don't know what it is, but Christians like farming eggs. So When you're selling in a dozen eggs. And you stamp a Bible verse on the packaging.

Maybe it's your favorite verse. Maybe it's your company's verse. Whatever what you're selling is. The eggs and so right there's reciprocity there because someone is buying the eggs from you. You're you're selling the eggs or buying the eggs and the fact that you put a Bible verse on there.

Maybe to spread the message of Christ because I don't doubt that's what they're trying to do these egg farmers. That's not what's being sold there. That's not where the reciprocity is, right? Is that is that fair exactly?

Yeah, and and you know, I've been so I grew up in the South right in Virginia and I Was sometimes disturbed the way people would use a Christian fish, you know to maybe get more business. But but in general no I would I would say there's no problem with doing this sort of thing or or in and out here in California in and out.

You know has a Bible verse at the bottom of the rim of their cup. Sure.

Yeah, no problem there. Yeah, I think I think you know. Honestly, there could be some like motivational things there that if you were that person's pastor like, you know. What are you doing there? But sure but at the end of the day Chick-fil-a is selling you a chicken sandwich.

You know, they're not selling you the gospel the egg farmers selling you a dozen eggs. They're not selling you the gospel. That's the bottom line, right? Right exactly. Okay, cool. So that's the so that's was there another one that you said was pretty so so another one that I get occasionally not that much but.

Subjective Intent, Due Diligence, and the Meaning of Reciprocity

When I was looking for feedback for this book originally before publishing it one of the people I talked to was Lee Irons and he had he had offered some pushback specifically around the Subjective nature of it and I've heard a few people mention this later.

So are you saying that? Whether or not I accept money is is right or wrong is based on what's in somebody else's head. You know, how how can I be held accountable for what's in somebody else's head. And interesting and I've had trouble trying to respond to That but I think it in the end.

Basically, all I'm saying is that we have to do due diligence to make sure that we're communicating correctly, you know. Whether you're counseling or preaching or speaking to a friend, you know, you do do due diligence to make sure you're speaking accurately and truthfully given what that person understands your words to mean what kind of.

You know relationship you have with them, you know. In your words and gestures. And so the question I'm answering what are the words and gestures in the context of receiving Around the gospel That communicate rightly that I am a servant of another and not a free agent as Paul would say in 1st Corinthians 9.

Yeah, definitely definitely. And Natalie we're gonna get to that question in just a moment. So I'm not ignoring you, but I will get to that in a second. She's asking about pastors and salaries. So we'll get to that in a minute.

But okay, cool. So so, you know, you know, I think. So some of this some of this book I think and I think I've seen you redress comments like this as well. You're trying to offer a principle, right? So you don't have every detail figured out.

You don't have every nuance figured out. But you've got a principle and then hopefully if you agree with this in principle, you know, we'll work out the details over time.

Yeah, I've been good. I've been thinking a lot about that. And yeah, if I can say a few things I've been thinking a lot about how this relates as an analogy to the regulative principle of worship. Hopefully some of your Listeners are familiar with this, you know, the regulative principle of worship Distinguishes between forms and elements and so you have forms and worship like, you know, how many songs do you sing?

Do you sit or stand while you're reading the word things like that the circumstances that are changeable, but the elements, you know. Reading the Bible that shouldn't be removed. You shouldn't be adding liturgical dance, you know things like that and so.

Hopefully, you know every reform believer can agree in the regulative principle of worship that there are these forms and elements one can be tampered with one cannot, you know one there's Liberty one there's not Liberty and Then you know deciding what's the form and what's an element?

There are disagreements, right? Some people say that instruments Musical instruments would be an element not a form other people say that it's a form. So same thing, you know I'm just I've got a principle on distinguishing between co-labor and reciprocity I'm hoping we can all agree on that.

Even if we disagree on what kind of things are co-labor what kind of things are reciprocity?

Definitely and so with the reason I've thought about that is because you're talking about the way that we present the information the way we present The gospel and then also, you know how we talk about co-labor and support and stuff like that.

Okay, so, you know We can obviously improve from okay. Here's this message in a book, you know, give me $20 for the book. We can improve upon that messaging and so but then there's gonna be like ways to improve upon it where you're asking for a co-labor.

Co-labor, but it's implied that you'll get something in return or something like that. Okay, maybe that's better than you what you used to do. Maybe we can still improve upon it. So like you don't have a final destination here.

Like we have a principle that we can work through right? Yes.

I'm calling people to you know, possibly exercise even more consistency than I am currently, right? There's there's a lot of there's a lot of open questions. I think we talked about ads last time, you know ads are yeah, that's Fuzzier for me.

I I have a thought on it, but it's fuzzier for me. And then I don't know if we talked about this but employee matching programs, you know here in Silicon Valley there are a lot of employee matching programs where if you Dan donate to your church, which you know is registered as the 501c3 the The employer will match your donation up to a certain amount now.

Can their donation be received as co-labor? Well, it's it's not reciprocity. You know should it be received just like Worship is allowed in the church from those who just walk in, you know, and and don't necessarily know the gospel yet.

So So I think that can be Called co-labor, even though they're not co-labors in the full Christian sense. Sure. So there's a lot of hard questions I don't have all the answers, but I'm hoping that we can all work together and then you know, maybe have some differences.

That's fine.

Yeah, I think about all kinds of stuff even like, you know, a lot of these ministries that took you know PPP loans that were forgiven and stuff like that. There's all kinds of weirdness that we obviously, you know, we have to work through some of that stuff.

But the principle hopefully you agree with the principle that you can't sell the gospel message. You can't sell ministry. If you do then let's work through some of that stuff. I think that's that's very valid good stuff.

Pastoral Salary, Church Support, and the Levites

Okay, so really quick for Natalie, so I don't think she's read the book, but she's asking about pastors and their salary. Shouldn't pastors be paid a salary? Tell me explain the Dorian principle in a simple way to Natalie.

All right, so the the Dorian principle says that we should be supporting ministers by co-laboring with them and giving money out of a desire to support ministry and We should not be Supporting them by reciprocity.

It's not so much about us. It's about the minister, right? The minister should not be receiving money as reciprocity where someone is exchanging their money for what they've received and in the context of church life you have a group of people who want to make sure the gospel is proclaimed in this area and One of them has to quit their job and and work full-time ideally in order to do this well.

And so it's reasonable for everyone else to to forego some of the fruit of their labor so that this man can do that and in fact you see in Paul's lists of his Lists of persecutions, you know in addition to being shipwrecked in addition to being beaten beaten He always lists that he worked with his hands, you know working with his hands is one of these These trials that he had to undergo in order to minister.

And so when we Work with our hands and forego some of the fruit of our labors so that a minister can minister. Well We are partnering side by side with them. And that's that's co-labor. That's totally appropriate and And then one other thought you use the word salary.

So maybe you weren't referring to this but there have been a lot of people Especially in the past couple of centuries of the church who have looked at some of these same verses and come to the conclusion That it's okay for pastors to be paid.

But not if it's regular not if it's salaried as long as it's only irregular and I don't I don't think the verses are talking About that. I don't think there's some principle of faith that says that you have to be, you know.

Just barely hang on trusting in God for that next paycheck. You all you should be trusting in God, but you know what I mean.

But you can structure it and it can be regular and it can be like a like the way that you know. You would receive your salary from your employer, right? Understood. Got it. No, that's great. That's great stuff.

Levites, Numbers 18, and Reciprocity With God

Okay, so let's jump into some of the pushback here because I think that's actually where I got an email from a pastor that you Know he didn't want to come on and do a debate just because he doesn't have time for that kind of stuff.

He wasn't scared or anything, but he had a bunch of stuff where he says you completely flunked like no no mincing. No words. Connelly. Your book is a flunk and He starts and you know to be honest based on what you just said and based on how I read the book I I kind of was confused as to why he started here, but he kind of started well, actually he didn't start here.

This was this was like the second point but he talks about the Levites right because you obviously use the example of the Levites in the book and You mentioned the Levites and how you said that the money that the tithes that the Israelites paid.

They paid to God. And and so that wasn't that was something that was given to the Lord for you know. Because he commanded it and the Lord, you know gives it to the Levites. But he says here that or I'm sorry.

Yes. And the Lord gives it to the Levites, but he says here that it's like well No. It's given to the Levites too and it's an exchange even says he even brings up numbers 18 and he quotes it as all tithes in Israel are given as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform the work of the tabernacle of meeting so He's saying that it's it's it's both you give it to the Lord.

But you're giving it to the Levites in return in reciprocity is what he's trying to say. For the work that I do in the tabernacle, how would you respond to that?

Right. Well when I when I read some of that I was confused as to whether or not he was responding to the things I had said about Leviticus 18 or excuse me numbers 18 or whether or not he was bringing up a point that.

Sure came from some other part. You know, like it wasn't like a logical treatise, but I write as well.

So the so the reason I point that out is because if you look at chapter 3 where I address this kind of my whole point is to Affirm these things in a qualified manner. Like I want to affirm there is some kind of reciprocity.

It's just not between people in the in the ministers, right? It's between God and the minister that he he is faithful and he pays his servants. And then on top of that that there is an obligation we have to the ministers.

It's just a mediated obligation not one that is direct but one that in our obligation to the Lord He requires that we That we support these ministers. So there is. I'm not saying we're not obligated in any sense.

I'm saying there's a Qualified manner in which we are obligated and that needs to be taken into consideration.

What I was confused about Conley to be honest is the way he quoted the verse kind of added a little confusion. But you know, I I use the King James as a kind of a safety net. But you know even the ESV and a lot of other versions I checked them.

It's very clear that God is saying I have given the children of Levi Right 10th in Israel for an inheritance for the service and and I think the ESV says in return for the service so it's pretty clear that that the people's obligation is to God and God is saying because you're doing this work for me.

I'm giving you this in order to do that, right? There is some reciprocity there, right? Yeah.

Yeah, and people don't like talking about God's obligation to the minister because you know, how can God be obligated? But you know, he binds himself by by ways of promises and he is he has promised to be faithful to the Levites, right?

Yeah, I I was a little confused by that too and and maybe it was I don't I didn't check every version. But maybe it was the version that he was using for numbers 18 that kind of didn't make that clear.

But the point is though that as a church go where you give your offerings and your ties to God and God in return pays the minister for the work that the minister is doing right? Yeah to take it back to.

Matthew 10 and Luke 10 which we had talked about last time when it says the workers worthy of his wagers at the work workers wages are the workers worthy of food. In Context God is the Lord of the harvest.

He is the employer and so the wages are coming from the Lord. Yes at the hand of his other servants, but they are coming from the Lord. That's that's what we're supposed to understand in context as he is the owner of the whole field.

Yeah, I think that's it. So so when we go to church and we give their tithes and offerings we already know where it's like. Essentially where that money's going we just kind of it's we don't think about it.

And so this seems like a big a small deal. It's like well, well ad Conley like what's the big deal right? Like we already do this, you know, why worry? Well, the reason why we're worried is because outside of the church context.

There's all kinds of weirdness going on and that's what we're really addressing. You're not really that concerned. I don't think at all in the book with how pastors are typically paid. They're typically paid according to this principle.

Yeah, normal church activities are totally in line with the Dorian principle, right?

So so that's not what this book is about like your normal church activities. It's about all the extras, right? Okay, cool. Okay, perfect. So good stuff. Now let's go to the beginning of this of this guy's message because I've heard this a lot Conley and you can tell me if You have heard this as well.

Basically the argument goes like this. It's not really an argument. It's just kind of a feeling and it's like So who's this Conley guy like we've been at the church for 2 ,000 years and nobody's ever seen this and this is a brand new Thing and the idea is anything new anything like a new understanding?

It's probably wrong. Some people just say it's flat-out wrong. Like this at least this guy said it's probably wrong and that's an impulse that I think you know A lot of us adopt just kind of naturally we hear a new thing.

We're like, I'm suspicious of that. Have you heard that kind of impulse as well?

Absolutely, and I think it's right. It's a good impulse. Um, and that's that's how I address it in the book. That's a good impulse to have so we need to we need to look to make sure that there's really a way to account for one did this exist at all and earlier portions of the church and to Where it didn't why didn't it and it is that reasonable given what we usually see about doctrines and practices in?

History and one thing that I come up in that letter that you forwarded to me was the forward right because the the forward is. From the publisher talks about how how new and special this this is. While I while I agree with the publisher like those are also, you know.

The publisher is really trying to push push this work, right? So that's not me saying this is brand spanking new. No one's ever thought about this before. So, so yeah, what what do you expect to see with doctrine in the church so with doctrine you tend to see, you know.

Growing clarity over time maybe some periods of confusion, you know with the Doctrine of the Trinity. Yes people understand that Jesus is Lord and and they begin to realize more and more what that means about his relationship with the Father until You have it articulated in the Doctrine of the Trinity what you see with practices in the church is A little different because usually practices because they are happening in the life of the church.

They actually degrade and then are recaptured later and so for example take The church offices, right? There's this rise in the monarchical episcopate, you know originally there were multiple elders the way they were supposed to be and and things worked as.

As they should and then you have the rise of one guy over many churches. And then it's only later after the reformation you have these different movements to recapture that I'm saying that something very similar happened with money and ministry where We have several works that show uh, you had the dedicate the shepherd of hermes we have uh, Apollonius who I I cite in the book.

We have these evidences that people were practicing the dorian principle in the early centuries of the church. Yeah, and then uh, Yes, there was a decline. Uh, in fact, this is why the reformation was sparked was over indulgences.

It was over selling salvation. And then so you have a recapturing. But not a need to articulate it as clearly as we do now because it's only in the past 300 years. That the problem has really escalated and i'll go ahead and explain what I mean by that.

In 1710 you have the statute of ann which is the first modern copyright law. So prior to the statute of ann. Authors generally are not getting paid direct royalties, right? They might uh write in at the beginning some kind of uh, uh.

What do you call it at the beginning of the book where you dedicate it's like a dedication. And then and then the society or the king or the queen who you dedicated to, you know, hopefully We'll reimburse you if they like the pretty things you said about them.

Um. But no generally, uh, generally authors weren't paid royalties. So it's only with the with the advent of modern copyright law that you have this model where the ones producing content teaching are Selling their teaching directly and.

So with that you have a rise in that and then in the past 50 years, you know. You have the whole advent of digital media where you have just all kinds of creative ways where people are uh selling the gospel and Uh, well getting the gospel out for one and then secondly occasionally commercializing it.

Selling Sermons, Copyright, and Digital Media

Yeah.

Yeah, you know one way that i've kind of talked with some people about it that kind of I think it kind of clicks a little light bulb is. Through a lot of a lot of people criticize certain pastors for selling like their sermons.

Their sermon sets right? So they they were pastors for years and then they get you know to the point where they have You know 300 sermons or 500 sermons or a thousand sermons and then they'll sell The mp3s of those sermons in a bundle for whatever the price is.

And that just strikes people like in a real icky way, right? Right, and there's some there's a lot going on there because they're kind of double dipping, you know. They had their salary, but now they're kind of so there's some of that.

But then but it just kind of just even if they weren't it strikes you weird, right? Right? So then i'll say okay. So I I agree with you that is weird. They're like and oftentimes they'll even use the language they're selling.

You know salvation they're selling the message of god that they receive freely. Why aren't they giving freely? But then it's like okay. So what's the difference? If they were doing that or if they put it in a book, right?

Yeah, exactly.

One we know, you know. If someone put a turnstile at the door of of the church like people would recognize that something's wrong with that. You put the you put the turnstile outside of uh, you know. Some kind of gospel conference where people are speaking and and suddenly it's okay.

Um, you know, they might be identical messages even yep.

It's it's and so that's that's what I think. I don't think i've necessarily convinced anyone but but that's what gets them thinking. Okay. There we do need to figure out what the principle is there because it can't just be this one feels icky.

This other one doesn't feel so icky, you know, it's like I put a turnstile, you know in in front of the church to hear the gospel. But it would be wrong for a street preacher to kind of do the same thing or you know.

Like there's just all kinds of things that feel icky automatically, but right anyway.

Yeah, and a lot of these things are a lot of people's conclusions that they haven't worked out are driven by pragmatics like You know very pragmatically. I don't think anyone's going to be turned away if we do this or it's only the more.

You know scholarly people who are going to read this or it's only you know. And so and so they don't feel like many people are are going to be turned away. But what happens in the end. Once again, the dorian principle is defined around sincerity.

You've already undermined the sincerity even if you haven't turned away a single person. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely good stuff. Good stuff.

Open Questions, Exceptions, and the Need for Consistency

Um, all right, so then. You know, I don't want to go too long conley. So in that list because I have one that I think think is interesting. But in that list, is there one of those pushbacks that you definitely want to address?

I'll give you that opportunity. Uh uh.

Let me uh, well, let me first say just a general one. I I think there's so confusion I get a lot of times is that you know, i'm saying that pastors shouldn't be paid or that uh,. Or that there's no sense in which we're obligated to our pastors.

First of all, that's not the case and hopefully chapter three clarifies that well. Yeah. Um, one specific thing was this thing from zechariah? Where zechariah was uh, uh is paid 30 pieces of silver. Um for tending sheep now I believe that's literal sheep and I don't I don't have a problem with this.