MSL: May 13, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live!

Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org.

When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live! For answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, and welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. If you're listening to Matt Slick Live, I hope you're all having a good day.

I spent the day, I'm late, and I spent the day doing man work, construction stuff inside of a guy's house, lifting a 12 by, what's it, 12 by 4 inch beam, jacking up a floor upstairs.

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Let's get to Juanita from Michigan. Juanita, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt.

Thank you. Thank you. I wanted to continue our conversation from last week.

We had to hang up because of a bad connection, but you probably don't remember, but it was in relation to Matthew 27, 46.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And I had asked you what you thought the effect was on Christ's relationship with the

Father at that time. And I believe you said you didn't know that the

Bible doesn't say, is that correct? That's right. It doesn't tell us what happened. Right.

And so I had said just before we had to hang up, if it would be fair to examine the effect that sin had in general on man's relationship with God.

And that was just about when we had to hang up. So I wanted to offer, you know, if you remember,

I'm sure I'm not a Trinitarian. I believe that Jesus was a man when he was born and he was a man when he died.

And so the effect of sin in general, I think we can get a lot from the Old Testament, all through the

Old Testament, starting with the garden, you know, when man sinned, they had to leave the garden.

And all through Isaiah, the effect of sin or iniquities, we're told that God would hide his face.

Isaiah tells us that your sins will separate you from God. He will not hear your cries.

And so the effect generally of sin in relationship to God is one of separation.

And I propose that that is what

Christ was experiencing on the cross, because we are told that he experienced everything that we experience.

He experienced all the human things. The Hebrews, well,

Hebrews says that he in all points experienced. He in all points experienced.

He was tempted even, but he was without sin. Okay, what are you proposing?

He was tempted. It doesn't mean he sinned. To say that he experienced everything that we did means he experienced sin, but the

Bible says he did not. Yeah, no, you misunderstood what I said. I maybe didn't make myself clear.

He experienced everything that we, what it says, he in all points, he was tempted, but was with without sin.

Jesus never sinned. Well, then you said, here's the logic thing. If you say he experienced everything, we experience committing sin.

So Jesus did not experience committing sin. So logic says he did not experience everything we did.

So this is what, this is, I think I can clarify it with you. He experienced everything up to the final moment when he became sin for us.

And in that time, God had to hide his face.

God had to separate himself. Jesus experienced everything that we experienced, even separation from God.

Well, it's a mistake. Did he experience sexual relations?

No, he wasn't married. You can, you can, you can think what, you know, what you want.

I'm proposing that I'm proposing that the effect of sin when he became sin, that he experienced the final, the final emptiness for that man, that man,

Jesus. Why have you forsaken me? You keep saying he experienced everything and I keep showing you he did not.

And then you repeat the same thing and I'm showing you he did not. And so this is a problem. It doesn't sound to me like you're interested in what the facts are, but a goal you want to get to.

And that's all. If your premises are there to get to that goal, the premises are incorrect.

Then you can't trust your conclusion. It's a simple logic. So you cannot say he experienced everything we did.

Okay. You can't. Jesus's actual words were, my

God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And so in those words, we can only use logic and understand that when he became sin, he must have experienced a forsaking.

When it's told that God will hide his face, that he will be set, we will be separated from God, that he will not hear our cries.

That sounds like being forsaken to me. Now I'm using logic and using

Jesus's words. Now, the one other thing, and we can go on about that, let me just say one, okay.

You're drawing conclusions that aren't necessary. First of all, I've told you twice, two or three times, you're making a mistake in your logic.

I show you exactly how instead of agreeing, okay, you're right. I need to rephrase that. You don't do that. You just continue on as though you didn't make any mistake.

That's a problem because it means you're not admitting your mistake. Now it's not a big deal. You just say, yeah, I should have phrased it differently.

No, that's fine. You can't say he experienced everything we did because he did not. Okay, he did not experience a committing sin.

He did not experience relations with a woman because he wasn't married. So there's two areas which he did not. All right, so what you want to say then is that this issue of the cross, then what you do is you go to people who are sinners by nature and you say, well, they are the ones who experienced certain separations, but that doesn't apply to Christ because he was not a sinner by nature.

So you don't include that in there either. And so you're having problems here. Your conclusions aren't to be trusted.

So there are only two final points that I would like to make is that we're told that in Romans by one man then entered into the world and in verse 15 we're told, but also is the free gift, which is by one man,

Christ Jesus. And so the final point

I wanted to make is Jesus had to be a man or he couldn't have paid the price.

Satan would have cried foul. Okay, it had to be a man, a perfect man who had never sinned, who had to be offered.

And it says by which is by one man, Jesus Christ. Christ had to be a man.

Couldn't be God that died. Couldn't be a God man that died. It wouldn't have.

He wouldn't have satisfied the price. And that's all that I wanted to say.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's illogical. It's illogical. It's what the Muslims say. The Muslims raise the same argument and so the

Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact, your arguments very close to the Jehovah's Witnesses, need a perfect man to deal with what the

Adam did. So with the door closed, Adam closed, Jesus, the man opened.

But what you do, you forget the verses where he's directly called God. You just ignore them. You directly do that.

No, let me ask you something. If I were to sin against somebody or you were to sin against an individual, your neighbor, don't you have to go to that neighbor and talk to that neighbor and say, please forgive me.

You know, you mess up, you know, that kind of thing, right? You go to the one who's offended, right? Is that correct?

You said something. You said something where Jesus is called God. Where is

Jesus called God? In Hebrews one, eight. But of the son, he says, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever to quote from Psalm forty -five verse six.

And it's where the father is calling Jesus God specifically. You have to be really, really careful in Hebrews one, and it takes much more than what we can do here.

Have you? No, no, no, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. Anything else that we can. Wait, wait, wait. I just showed you where he is and you dismiss it.

This is not what you want to do. So look, look, I'm going to show you what it says. This is verse three of Hebrews one.

And he is the radiance of his glory, the exact representation of his nature and upholds all things by the word of his power, which he when he had made purification of sins.

He sat down at the right hand of majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels as he has inherited a more excellent name for to which of the angels did he ever say you are my son.

So the he is God, the father. Would you agree? Yes. OK. And today

I have begun. And again, I'll be a father to him and he shall be a son to me.

And when he again brings the firstborn of the world, he says, and let all the angels of God worship him and of the angels, he says, who makes his angels wins and his ministers a famous fire.

But of the son, he says, thy throne, oh, God, is forever and ever. Did God the father called

Jesus God? Many people are called theos in the old.

I didn't ask that. I said, did God the father called Jesus God? And what is what is your interpretation of God?

The word God might let mighty person know what you really.

Why are you so look, let me tell you something, OK, that you are so entrenched in denying who

Christ is. You've been given over. This is a judgment on you. One of the proofs of this is when

I read God's word. You don't agree with God's word because you're putting God's word under your feet.

You're trampling over it because you want to make it fit what you want. You ask me, where's the say he's got to give you the exact verse, then you basically dismiss it.

So I had to say, now let's go read it. I didn't show it to you. Show you where he's called God. I said, well, what does the word God mean?

And then you do what you're doing. You're committing what's called illegitimate totality transfer. The word God has many meanings in different places.

So you say over there, it means this. So we're going to transfer the meaning over to here. But this is what it says.

But of the sun, he says, Thy throne, O God, for is forever and ever. It's a quote from Psalm 45, verse six, which says,

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. That is the mighty God. That is the true and living

God. That's what it is. Look, your throne, O God, is forever and ever a scepter of uprightness in the scepter of your kingdom.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore, God, your God has anointed you with all the oil of joy of the fellows.

This is what is quoted. God, there is the true and living God, and it's applied to Jesus. Now, we've got a break.

So see if you can answer me according to the scriptures, according to the context. When God the Father says to the sun, your throne,

O God, tell me, is the Father calling Jesus God according to the Old Testament?

Understanding. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Juanita, are you still there?

I am. All right. Did God the Father call Jesus God? So, if you will look up Hebrews 1 -8, and look at your inner linear, and this happens a lot, especially, well, only, only,

I might say, around the Trinity theory. But onto the sun, he didn't say it onto the sun necessarily.

It's, you know, the word he says is added in there. So he didn't really say it onto the sun.

We have to be, and let me give you another example. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Hold on. The context is this, that in Hebrews 1 -5, it actually does say, he said, a pen in the

Greek, for which of the angels did you ever say? It goes on. And again, it says that.

And when he brings the firstborn of the world, he says, that's verse six. And of the angels, he says, verse seven.

But of the sun, what, what, what, what goes in there? He says or he doesn't say?

What goes in there? It doesn't say. Hebrews 1 is extremely,

I don't want to say, you have to be really careful when interpreting Hebrews 1, okay?

Yeah, you should be. And that is something that just can't be, yeah, yeah. Because it's interpreted incorrectly,

I believe, by many people. And the Trinity, yes.

I asked you, but you haven't answered it. Did the father call Jesus God? Keep asking the question. You keep avoiding it.

Oh, he didn't? So when it says the son, and the context is he's saying, that's the father speaking, your throne, oh

God, is forever and ever. So it's not the father calling Jesus God? The word, the word can be interpreted great person.

God said, God said unto this mighty, great person, you know, and even thy throne.

And even we have to, Matt, we have to examine this throne. I've wanted to do a word study on the throne, because sometimes it's called

God's throne, you know, and it's, um, there's, it's, it's wonderfully intricate and we have to be so careful.

You know, you are not being careful. You are trying to make it go away.

But of the son, your throne, oh God, is forever and ever. So when it says, but of the son, this is, and then you put, he says, because that's what you do in Greek, it's fine.

Your throne, oh God, is forever and ever. That's not calling Jesus God. Even though it says, but of the son, your throne, oh

God, it's not calling God, him God. I'll be honest with you. I'm in a little bit of a loss right now because my study on Hebrews one was not something

I was prepared right now. I've done a pretty good study on it and it is very interesting.

We have to be careful. Who is he? Who is he talking? Who is he talking about?

Hebrews one is an extremely, but it's, it's really good once you really, really nail it down and figure it out.

I've only been doing this since 1980 and dealing with these verses in Hebrew since then.

And I've had four and a half years of Greek in college and seminary. I've looked at this. I know what the vocative is with a nominative, the

Omicron Sigma ending. I know how it works. So go back into the Hebrew and looked at that. And even in seminary, he asked him, the seminary professor about this.

What is the right way for the translators to go? And then we can look at the Septuagint, what it says too. And this is what it actually says.

Your throne, oh God, is forever and ever. And that's what it says. I've done a deep, deep study on it.

So when I ask you, does the father call the son God, you just say no, even though the text says it does.

This proves to me and should prove to you and everybody else that you're just not believing God's word.

I do. But like I say, I'm not prepared to talk about Hebrews one right now. I got something.

I just am not. Yes. Okay. Really simple. Are you familiar with the

Septuagint? I am. Okay. So if you go to Psalm 116, verse four, it says this.

Then I called upon the name of Yahweh. That's God's name, right? Oh, Yahweh.

I beseech you save my life. So the phrase call upon the name of the

Lord or Yahweh, it's not the one word call or the one word name of the one word

Yahweh. It's the phrase called upon the name of Yahweh. That's what the Hebrew is. Call upon the name of Yahweh.

Oh, Yahweh, I beseech you save my life. The phrase called upon the name of Yahweh is a prayer to God only, right?

Would you agree? The name of God. Yes. Yes. The name of God. The name of God is an extremely, extremely interesting study.

And you can go to you can go to John 17, you know, where where Jesus says,

I the name, the name, I have protected them with the name which you gave me. I have.

Oh, gosh, we have to go to. We have to go to. I'm asking about Psalm 116. Psalm 116 for what

I'm asking you about, because the phrase, the phrase, the phrase

P .H .R .A .S .E. The phrase call upon the name of Yahweh. The phrase means to pray to the living

God. And it's addressed to the living God only. The Septuagint translators guess what they translated it into in the

Greek called upon the name of Ha -Kourias, the Lord.

The phrase in the Hebrew I called upon the name of Yahweh is translated into the

Greek call upon the name of the Lord, Ha -Kourias. That's what it is. So the phrase in Greek called upon the name of the

Lord is equivalent to call upon the name of Yahweh. It's always the case.

No exceptions. Now, when you go to 1 Corinthians 1, verse 2, to the church of God, which is at Corinth, to those who've been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling with all in every place, call upon the name of the

Lord, Jesus. Why would Paul, the apostle, use the phrase that's only used of God almighty, call upon the name of the

Lord? Why would he translate the phrase, not the word? The same thing.

The Lord is the same thing. When Jesus taught us, you know, teach us how to pray, he said.

You're not listening. Jesus said, this is how, no, you aren't listening. Let me talk for a second. Did I say phrase?

Did I say phrase? Listen. Yes, I did. Jesus. You're picking one word. Look, look,

I said the phrase. I've only done this a thousand times with people. And you do exactly what they're doing.

You take the one word out and say, well, the word Lord here means different things. I'm not talking about that. Talk about the phrase.

Call upon the name of the Lord. That is equivalent to call upon the name of Yahweh. Why did

Paul apply the phrase to Jesus? It first contains one, two. May I speak?

Sure. If you can answer the question. If you're saying that we're supposed to pray to Jesus, you are so, so wrong.

Jesus taught us how to pray. What is Paul? You're interrupting me, Matt. You're not answering the question.

I ask you a question and you don't answer it. I would. I was answering the question, but you interrupted me.

Why does he use the phrase applying it to Jesus? Then you say was a pray to the father.

Ask John Matthew six and Luke 11, but can also go to first John 1414. Jesus has asked me anything in my name and I will do it.

He's talking about prayer. And in Acts seven, fifty five to sixty, Stephen prayed to Jesus. I'm asking you about this first.

We are not. One, two. If you will not interrupt me. After the break.

I want to answer you. Answer about the phrase. Okay. Okay. We'll be right back after these messages.

I've done this so many times. I wish people would stop denying Christ. We'll be right back after these messages.

It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back to the show.

This is apologetics. Let's get back to Anita. All right. We need to go ahead. See if you can answer the question.

I'm waiting. Paul was not telling us. Now, don't interrupt me. Paul was not telling us to pray to Jesus.

That is that. That's an error. Jesus told us how to pray in Matthew six.

Okay. He said after this manner, pray our father, which art in heaven. He didn't say anything about praying to him.

Okay. That's all I have to say about that. Okay. But you didn't answer the question.

I'm not going to go around in circles with you. You didn't answer the question. I've only done this literally hundreds of times with someone.

Sixteen, four, you go to go to Zechariah 13, nine, and then how it's used of Jesus.

The phrase call upon the name of the Lord is a phrase used only of God almighty.

Why does Paul use the same phrase in reference to Jesus? That's the question. I'm going to have to repeat myself.

Paul is not telling us to pray to Jesus. Jesus taught us how to pray in Matthew six.

Okay. And I'm not going to go around in circles with you on this. We are not to pray to Jesus.

Oh, so you can't go to Christ and you can't have fellowship with him. Can you? Oh, absolutely.

What did you say about me denying Christ? How do you have fellowship with someone you don't talk to?

You don't spend any time with. I didn't say not talk to him. I'm talking about praying to him as we would pray to God.

Wait a minute. Our father, which art in heaven. You talk to Jesus? Absolutely.

He is my mediator. Can he hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken in thought?

Oh, come on, Matt. Come on. Let's stop. Let's let's move on to something. No, no, no, no.

No. If it's a question too difficult for you to say, it's too difficult for you. I'm asking you a question.

Now, can he hear can he hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken in thought, different languages all over the world simultaneously?

Can he do that? If you can tell me how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Okay. Now, twice as many as half when twice as many as half. Now, I answered the question. I gave you a logically valid question.

You told me you said that I was denying Christ. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

You can't answer my difficult questions. I've got other difficult questions I can ask. But you see,

I'm just giving you these. No. Well, hold on. Hold on. I asked you specifically.

You say you talk to Jesus. The implication is that he hears you. Well, then others do that.

So my question is, can he hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken in thought, different languages all over the world?

What's your answer? Yes. Okay. So now you're saying he can do what

God does. Now, does he have the ability to forgive sins? He has all authority in heaven and earth.

Matthew 28, 18. Right. Right. If he has authority, it's only because God gave it to him.

Good. So he has all authority, all authority in heaven and earth. He hears millions of prayers simultaneously and he forgives sins.

So have you ever asked Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins? No, I acknowledge by faith that he has by what he did on the cross.

So you have never gone to Christ. You've never asked the Lord to forgive you of your sins.

Paul uses the phrase that is prayer and adoration to God. He uses the phrase, call upon the name of Yahweh, which is translated into the

Greek. Call upon the name of the Lord. The phrase is used of Jesus, which then implies that the church calls upon his name, the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ. To call upon the name of God is to pray to him, to invoke his name, to seek him.

And it's used of Jesus Christ. And he has all authority in heaven and earth. And you haven't even gone to the one who has the authority.

You haven't even asked him to forgive you of your sins. So let me ask you, if you've not asked Jesus to forgive you, are your sins forgiven?

I have to go to the Lord's prayer again that Jesus taught me. Forgive us our trespasses that we forgive those who trespass against us.

Our father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our trespasses.

We're asking God to forgive us our trespasses. What you're doing is called deflecting.

You're deflecting. I can tell you where that's found. No, I'm not. Yes, you are. Why did

Stephen, when he was being stoned, he saw the glory of God the

Father and the Lord Jesus. Who did he pray to? The Father or Jesus?

Verse 59 of Acts 7. He saw the glory of God. He saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand.

They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Who did he pray to? It sounds like he was asking.

I'm not sure you could call it praying to him. But he said, Lord Jesus.

I'd have to look up that scripture and see really, you know, because it's. This is what happens.

You know, this is what happens. Like, look up First Timothy 316. Do this for me.

OK, because you've got to be really careful. We're throwing scripture out back and forth and we've got to be really, really careful.

First Timothy 316. What does your translation say? Says he was revealed in the flesh.

No, what does First Timothy 316 say? Read it. It says common confession.

Great is the mystery of godliness. He was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed in the world, taken up in glory.

OK, great, great. Your translation does it. Correct. Some translation.

God was manifest in the flesh. OK. And we find this. We find this a lot.

You know, there have been subversions around the Trinity. So you look, let me tell you something.

We had a serious discussion. I will back you into a corner intellectually and and scripturally.

You don't know the fullness of the gospel. You don't know the fullness of who God is.

I'm asking you basic questions and you're faltering repeatedly. I've given you references.

I've shown you what it is and you continue to falter. You think the Trinity is a theory. And in every debate

I've had, I've shown people how the theory of the doctor, the Trinity's arrived at biblically.

I've shown it to them and not a single one has ever refuted it.

Not a single one. And you won't be able to either because you can't refute what the scriptures actually say.

You have someone else as your savior. You don't have God as your savior. You have someone else.

It's like you sin against your neighbor on your left and then you go to your neighbor on your right and ask forgiveness for the sin committed against your neighbor on the left.

You see, when you offend God, you have to go to the one who's offended. He will forgive you. But now you're talking about going to Jesus, who's nothing more than in your mind, a man who was not the one sinned against and he is not the one you have to go to.

You have to go to God, but you can't because now you got to go to Christ. He has all authority, but somehow Jesus is able to to take care of your sin when he's only a man.

Job's witnesses teach. You cannot deal with the verses that I've already raised to you. You cannot.

Jesus. Jesus. Jesus is my savior. No, he's not. He is not your savior.

My savior. No, he's not. Jesus is my savior. No, he's not. By faith,

I accept the free gift that God presented me. When Abraham went up the mountain and Isaac asked, where is that?

Where is the sacrifice? And Abraham said, God will provide the sacrifice.

God has provided. It says God himself will provide or God will provide for himself. You don't even know what that is.

God will provide the sacrifice. Jesus Christ is my savior. You don't even know what it says.

Jesus Christ is my savior. Let me tell you, your savior is a demonic, is a demonic manifestation.

It's a denial of the true Christ. And I've shown it to you in scripture that the phrase call upon the name of Yahweh is the

Greek call upon the name of the Lord. And Paul says, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. And you deny it.

I've shown you an act 759 where Stephen prayed to Jesus. I've shown you first Corinthians one nine to have fellowship with the

Lord Jesus, which means you got to pray to him and you ignore the verses where he's prayed to. And you go to these other verses as though you're trying to set scripture against scripture.

You don't have God. You don't have it. And maybe and maybe at another time.

Go ahead. And maybe at another time. I can point out to you why

I believe that the Trinity theory is demonic in its origination and will play out in the end time.

Sure. Yeah, we can try that. And I'll tell you what you call back tomorrow and I'll have you go to a website, my website.

I'll show you a chart and let's see if you can refute what it says. No, I'd rather speak with you.

Yeah, I'm saying I read it on the air. I'll say, go here, take a look at it. And I'll say, refute it.

You won't be able to. Well, we'll talk. We'll talk next Monday. Was there anything you want me to study while we're apart this week?

Call upon the name of the Lord. Call upon the name of the Lord. The phrase is used of Christ equivalent to God Almighty.

There's a break. We got to go. OK, folks, be right back. Oh, this is what

I do. We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live!

Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. That kind of stuff fires me up. Oh, man. It's the heart of everything, who

Jesus is. Let's get on the air with Nelson from Bakersfield. Nelson, welcome. You're on the air. Listen, Matt.

Wow. That is, wow, I've dealt with people like that before. Amazingly deceptive they are.

Yeah. I have a question regarding,

I have a friend of mine, and this passage from Matthew 12, verse 43 to 45.

Yeah, I know. He believes that that is, and I've shown it to him in context and everything, and he does not believe that this is, basically,

I'm sorry, let me get my words correct. He believes this is a believer, that a believer can be demonically possessed.

Can you refute that, please, as the Lord leads? I want to show him this.

Sure. And what it says there is, now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places, seeking rest, and does not find it.

Then it says, I will return to my house from which I came. And when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.

That's the key. The context of what's going on is Jesus had been casting out demons, and they said he was doing it by the power of the devil.

And he said, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. So he's talking about casting them out.

So in Matthew 12, 43 through 45, the implication here, it's not a logical necessity, but it certainly is an implication, that when the spirit returns and finds it unoccupied, notice what it says, swept and put in order, this means a demonic force has been cast out, but the

Holy Spirit, it seems, is not there. Unoccupied, okay?

And the Lord Jesus says, he'll come and make his abode in us, John 14, 23. So unoccupied.

So I would ask your friend, what does unoccupied mean? And now this is a side note, he may say, well, the soul can be possessed, but not the spirit, or he might say the spirit can be possessed, but not the soul.

What you need to do is, before he says something like that, is go get prepared, go to my website, and look up dichotomy,

D -I -C -H, dichotomy, D -I -C -H -O -T -O -M -Y, and learn trichotomy, dichotomy or trichotomy.

Are we made of two things or three things? Body, soul, spirit, or are soul and spirit interchangeable?

Now the Bible talks about them being interchangeable. There's debate about it, but I'm just saying, be ready so that you can say, well, the body, the soul, and spirit seem to be used interchangeably.

Here are the verses to prove that. Because he might want to say, like I said, that the soul can be possessed, but not the spirit, which is ridiculous.

Does he live in our spirit, but not our soul? Is that what you're saying? What are you saying? And so anyway, you can find it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.

Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there.

The last state of the man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.

So you ask him, what does it mean, and you ask him, what does it mean when it says that the person's body is swept clean, unoccupied, it's empty?

What does it mean? Does it mean God's there? See? If he says yes, why is it empty?

If he says no, well then, okay. Then you say, what can happen if God is there? Can a demonic spirit dwell with God who's holy?

Okay? Okay. Yeah, because I've tried to, you know, show him scripture, and he says that he has seen believers demonically possessed.

Then what he's doing, what he's doing at this point is judging truth by his experience, what he has seen.

Exactly, that's what I was thinking right now. Good, good, good, good. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, you're right, because, you know, just because he, like,

I mean, I'm a firm believer of the scriptures, when the word of God tells us that we've been resurrected in heavenly places with Christ Jesus, in the heavenly realms, how can we be up there and at the same time be demonically possessed up there?

Right. And so, to me, this doesn't make sense. I mean, the scripture's clear about that, that when a person has been justified, declared righteous, therefore now we've been justified through faith and we have peace with God through our

Lord Jesus Christ, he believes that a person can unjustify himself and lose his salvation.

And so, it's a word -based salvation that he has to keep his obedience to Christ.

If he thinks it's a lustful thought, boom, he lost it. But it becomes repentance, and he got it back.

Well, this is what I do when I talk to people who say that they can keep their salvation by their goodness. And I want to cut to the heart of the issue.

And I say, are you telling me then that you're keeping the law of goodness and all this on the same level as God in flesh,

Jesus? Is that what you're doing? Well, no. Then you're lost.

Because if you're keeping yourself right with God by your effort, it has to be on the level of Jesus, not your own.

Because He's the standard, not you. So if you want to say you're doing this on the same level as He, then you're arrogant.

If you say you're not, then you're lost. Either way, you lose. You're not relying on Christ.

Then preach to him the true gospel. It's all of Christ. Okay? Okay.

And also it may stem off the fact that he is a believer of oneness.

So that's another issue. That's the real problem, basically.

Yeah. Oneness is a cult. So have him call the show sometime, and we can discuss oneness, and I can show him why it doesn't work in Scripture.

I've tried to tell him to call you, but he just won't. Can you get that to work at 3 .30?

Tell you what. Tell you what. You're in Bakersfield, right?

So you're an hour off from me, which is fine. And you can get him on the phone, and we can do a three -way conversation, and I'll talk to him.

Just us three. Okay. Tell him you'll do that. Yeah. I've tried to tell him before, but he just kind of, you know, withers away and doesn't want to, you know.

But I'll ask him. I'll ask him if he's willing to come on. If not, well, he just, yeah.

Here's something else. And I can get down to Fresno, and it's about a 10 -hour drive or so, and if you set up a debate with a

Oneness person at your church, I'd be glad to go there. Say, hey, get your best Oneness person, and I'll debate them.

I'll come down and debate them in person at your church. His pastor is

Spanish -speaking. So... No es fácil. No sé la lengua suficiente para debatir en español, pero quiero aprenderlo.

So I'm not good enough, but... You speak pretty good. Well, yeah. So they know words

I don't know. But I need to practice. I need to speak nothing but Spanish for three months, then

I should be good enough to build a debate in Spanish. But so here we go. Look, we can do it with an interpreter, okay?

So I would still do that. But, yeah. Okay? Okay. All right,

Matt. Well, thank you very much. What was that? To look up what again? Was that what you had mentioned earlier?

I forgot. Look up what? What were we talking about? You had mentioned a word to look up on your web page, on your site.

Sesco Bedillion? Sesco Bedillion? That means someone who likes big words.

What's that? Is that humoronical? I don't know.

Was it the Trinity? What did you say? Dichotomy? Oh, dichotomy.

Yes, dichotomy. Or just go to Carmen, look up are we as a human three parts or two parts.

Just do that, and you should be able to find it, okay? All right, man? All right, Matt. Sounds good.

Okay, buddy. God bless. Okay. All right, next longest wait is

Elijah from Philly. Elijah, welcome. Sorry, buddy, long time. Go ahead. Hey, Matt.

I just wanted to add one thing to the first call that you had.

You guys were talking about Hebrews 1 .8, and I wanted to bring up Hebrews 1 .4.

It says, which translation? I guess I'll read out of the NASB. It says, having become so much better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a more excellent name than they.

So if a person receives a name that's greater than the angels, doesn't that mean that that person is

God? Because the only being that can have a greater name than the angels or who can be higher than angels is

God, right? Well, here's the thing about that, okay? I'm with you.

But what they'll do is say it was given to him. If he's God, doesn't he be given to him?

That's the standard argument. Because if he's God, why is that to be given to him? And then the answer is because he's made lower than the angels, made under the law, and et cetera.

I've explained it to them. So that's why with those, you're right on track, but those are just how they respond to them.

So what I do is having my experience, I go to different places, and I show it like I did with that lady.

I asked her stuff. She couldn't answer. She was stumped quickly. And there's other stuff

I can do. So there you go.

Yeah, that was an interesting conversation. I enjoyed listening to that. But before we go, there's this debate that I watched on Sanic for Truth, I think, about a month ago.

It was on premillennialism versus all -millennialism. And the all -millennial position was held by Dr.

Robertson Jennings. I know you had a debate with him years ago on faith alone and all that stuff. But he brought up these points, and I took down notes on this.

He said that Revelation chapters 6, 9, 11, 14, and 19 all speak about the end of the world.

And I thought that was interesting. And when he said that, that helped me to understand Revelation better, and it helped me to read it in a different way.

And also in Revelation 16, 13 through 16 and Revelation 20 verses 7 through 9, both of these sections of Revelation both mention the battle of Armageddon with Gog and Magog.

So I'd like to know your thoughts on that. Do you think Revelation 16 and Revelation 20 are talking about the same event but in different ways?

I'd have to look at them to see. I just can't tell you off the top of my head. But I'd have to look.

But yeah, there's so much you could talk about with that, all -millennialism and stuff.

I'm convinced of it. And I have a theory I'm going to be working on and trying to develop and release. And we'll see how much brouhaha it causes.

But you'll have to check out those verses too. Okay? Yeah. What are your thoughts on post -millennialism?

Have you ever studied post -millennialism? I have a friend who's post -mill, and he's got some good arguments.

But when I raised up the 2H model, what happens at the last day, that's when I think the wheels came off his cart at that point.

So he said to study it. We haven't talked since. So I think post -mill is optimistic all -mill.