Provisionist Palaver, Trent Horn on Argumentation, Moments with Carl Trueman & Doctrinal Development

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:44

Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line just as we were coming on the air It seems that Layton flowers is very busy today at the computer.

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He's just madly typing away on the stuff he always types away on and It just posted well actually this is weird.

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I just looked back over at it This is 22 hours ago, and it just popped up I do not understand the algorithms as to what they think you're supposed to be looking at anyways it's just popped up on my screen literally it wasn't there that I looked over and it's there and someone had posted and man the

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Next one possible to read Reform doxology had posted GS died for his people

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GS died for his friends GS died for his sheep GS died for his bride GS dying for his own is one of the hardest biblical realities of swallowing the scriptures

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Yes truth gave references and of course you know the debate coming up on that subject

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And Layton writes GS died for Paul Galatians 2 20 therefore he didn't die for anyone else, but Paul see how the negative inference fallacy works

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Well, that's what Layton has been taught to do by David Allen But no one

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Again, if Layton had ever actually been reformed he would understand these things, but obviously clearly he never was

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Um he would understand that when you point to Paul's statement

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Christ I died with Christ Christ. I mean there's an entire theology there There's a theology of union with Christ There's a theology of the intercessory work of Christ for those who are in him

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There's this whole thing that if you take that perspective will lead you inevitably to universalism you have to end up there

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Penal substitution atonement is a reformed doctrine There is no reason if you're not reformed to hold the penal substitution atonement

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Because of what it means and so it just it's just always I it

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I was talking with rich about and we're like hey is it is it just a couple weeks before a debate trip and so every every weird thing in the world's getting thrown around out there and It's true it is

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All the stuff that normally happens including Physical weakness prior to it prior to a winter trip is happening again

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Just like one or two years ago. I think it was one year ago. Maybe two years ago anyways And so but at the same time you've got all this faux stuff people putting you know certain would -be

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Cult leaders putting out videos all over the place and people keep sending them to me

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And I'm like it doesn't really say what it is. I click on it's like oh good grief I've had a couple people send stuff to me from this guy as soon as I see what it is

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I turn it off and then I go find the person sent to me and I remove them as a follower and I block

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But by Bye, my mute and block list has become very very long and I I appreciate the fact that you can remove

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Followers, there's a lot of people who don't want to do that. I want to get to a thousand father I've got over a hundred and thirty thousand followers and I don't and people are always like I don't like this follow

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I don't even know how to find out who the followers are but when I find somebody you can click on their thing that says they follow you and then there's the thing you can remove them

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As a follower and I do that all the time Just you know, so they don't have to deal with my terrible horrible beliefs.

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So anyway All sorts of stuff to get to but I figure I might as well Continue along those lines before what we do.

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I'll do with some of this reform stuff first Then I want to answer a

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Trent Horne statement that he made Look at an argument that Trent Horne makes in one of his books that will be relevant to The Allie Beth Stuckey program coming up On You know,

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I I should be careful about this. I don't know that it's that it's live

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In fact, I can't believe that it would be well anyways somewhere in the days prior to the two debates of Trent Horne, so somewhere before The 15th and the 16th so on the 13th, okay split this way on the 13th in Dallas We're gonna be on Allie Beth Stuckey talking about Protestant Catholic stuff

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It's gonna be a little bit of an overdose I'm sure for Trent Horne with me and vice versa because then we're doing two debates back -to -back on the 15th and the 16th

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Which is which is a lot or is the 16th and 17th? hmm

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Even I'd have to check that. I'm gonna be in Houston on the 15th. So it's either the 15th 16th 16th 17th It's probably 16th 17th.

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I think about anyway We're gonna be talking about Roman Catholic stuff good to being soul scripture we're gonna be debating purgatory

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And so I want to look at some stuff that he Said in one of his books Just to help others prepare for that.

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And then If there's any time left after that, we'll we'll try to wrap up the

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Carl Truman lecture I have a few minutes left list and there's an important part in that because the first section

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That I want to get to is on development of doctrine. So that's actually actually That actually will will work well now

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I think about wasn't planned But that will actually flow fairly well out of the Trent Horne discussion.

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So that's what we'll try to get done Today as best we can and if the voice sticks with me

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I'll have to admit a couple times the past couple days. I sounded like Barry White Not James White and I should

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I should back off the volume even now Just in case because yes, there's stuff going around and and I'm dealing with it.

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All right Okay, two two tweets

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From From Leighton here that want to deal with again And people say why bother again

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It's not that provisionism is all that big of a thing I mean the whole idea of who you've come up with a new movement

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Actually, we're just synergists and we're just not nearly as deeply rooted in history as the other synergists came of course

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But They're they're they're teachable moments they're they're opportunities to go

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Here is another misrepresentation and it almost always is and here's how you respond to it.

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So The one that I saw this now says 14 hours again Algorithms or algorithms

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They are very mysterious if Calvinism were true

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So there's a there's a video. I'm not gonna put the video up, but you can find it yourself There's a video where this father he has three

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Kids, they all look the same age. In fact, they look like they may be triplets And he has them sitting there their eyes are closed and He has

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I don't know if it's a burrito or just what it is But two of the kids there's nothing on their plate when they open their eyes and the other one has three burritos on their plate

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One of them starts crying. The other one's going what's going on? And the one in the middle gives the one burrito the one one to the other.

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Okay, it's cute You know dad seeing if he's training them to share and stuff like that very human

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You know pluck at the heartstrings human type thing, okay, so If Calvinism were true

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Provisionists would have the heart of the kid in the middle who gave one of each to the people

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All the while wondering why we are more benevolent than our father Okay, so once again what you do is

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We don't we don't care about God's glory We don't care about God's holiness

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We don't care about theodicy We don't care about even though Paul says God's gonna be justified and what he doesn't matter.

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It's all about man It's all about the creature What you Calvinists and your focus upon God's holiness and glory and eternal purposes?

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It's all about man. It's all about us, man. Don't worry about other stuff and So we are more benevolent than our father now think about this for just a moment

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Because again if if Layton was ever reformed he'd know this and but has evidently forgotten stuff and in that time period

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It happens. It's convert syndrome seen it many many times We're talking about Well, let's let's talk about something that's super super important the eternal covenant of redemption that the pactum salutis the

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This is something that honestly In some forms of Biblically bereft classical theology, how's that?

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People who get so enamored with the With the framework that they forget that what enlivens and makes classical theology

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Important and worthwhile is its intimate connection to Scripture The first time

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I ever taught on the attributes of God For Alvin and Megan ministries

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I'm not sure if you were there if that was before you if that already existed by the time you came along That was already up there.

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Okay We already had the cassette tape We had we had the cassette tape on the ghetto blaster that we could do duplicate.

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Yes, that was Man we're getting old Five years in from Five years from when we okay.

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All right, so probably about two years before you came along We I recorded a seminar on the attributes of God, okay,

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I'm a young seminary type guy and Young seminary type guys just get all excited about this kind of stuff as well.

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They should But even at that point in time Even though I did have quotes from someone like a

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Burkhoff or something like that the focus of Scripture the focus

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I Recognized from the start that if you want Christ's sheep to be passionately

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Involved in something to believe something with passion that's going to last their whole life you ground them in the scriptures

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Everything you ground them in outside the scriptures can come and go Ground them in scriptures and they'll stay grounded

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That's that's how the spirit works and so We ground people in those scriptures and those scriptures reveal to us

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That These these beautiful doctrines that are related to one another and The reality is that when we talk about the attributes of God we talk about all the beautiful interconnectedness of Christian theology when we talk about God's purposes

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We talk about the Father the Son the Spirit. Like I said, I I'm really concerned that some of these people

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There is great beauty in In recognizing in in allowing the scriptures

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To reveal to us the Beauty of the relationship of the divine persons now if if you and some

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Post -Nicene theologians got to this point. All right, they got to this point and If you think that you just have to Slavishly follow every post -nicene theologian.

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I just I'll just point you to Calvin who didn't He was willing to correct based on scripture and Emphases things like that not just throw the whole thing out but to go

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Not really. Yeah, I'm not so sure about that, you know, and so anyway

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When you get to the point as some post -nicene theologians did to where the divine persons their their their reality of existence is limited to One part of the divine mind contemplating another part of the divine mind

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Okay Just don't look at me in the eye and say that's what the Apostles believe Just don't look at me in the eye and say that if you even if you explained your position of the

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Apostles they'd go Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's where we're coming from. No, I I don't believe it

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One of the things that I have loved for so long is to think about the condescension love and yet Desire for self -glorification

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That is seen in the roles played by father son and spirit in bringing about redemption

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Each divine person is taking a different role And if that's just one thought bouncing off another thought and the two together make a third thought or something

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Wow Forget that That's not what the New Testament teaches. That's not how anyone reading the

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New Testament go Yeah, I think that's what the author is intended us to believe so that Eternal Covenant of Redemption is to simply be washed away by the focus upon the creature

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The focus upon the creature and so Wondering why we are more benevolent than our father.

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The Sun takes on human flesh to redeem rebel sinners See, I don't believe that provisionism has any room for a biblical

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Anthropology and especially a biblical doctrine of federal headship. It's just not there. You just it's just not there.

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They don't believe it they believe in the fundamental goodness of man and they act that way and they reason that way very very clear and so the condescension the love demonstrated by father son and spirit in redemption is

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Washed away washed away. You never know.

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Ah Okay Actually some fun apology, which

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I appreciate that anyway, um So there's there's that one then more on the

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Absurdity of Baal gate Once again, we we have constant proof being offered to us

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That the people who have been rejecting reformed theology don't know diddly about it

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Because it seems that most these people had never read the London Baptist Confession of Faith or the

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Westminster Confession of Faith And it ever thought through what it says and so their big thing again now

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So now remember just I just want to remember remind everybody this all started with one guy there were three guys on the video and one guy

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Decided to say that the that reformed parents have the attitude of Moloch worshippers

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We're willing to throw their children on the fire as long as they get in as long as they get theirs They get their salvation then they can throw their children in the fire or they go up this absurdity again

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That man didn't have any credibility then and now he's in About as much of the same deficit spending situation with credibility as the

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United States government and that's That's a lot really is He got rightly

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Destroyed by everybody Armenians and everybody else for such

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Absurdity, okay rightly destroyed. So what do they do? They decided to cover it up by creating

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Baal gate Which is not about how reformed parents think about their children, it's not about the lie

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That oh, hey as long as I get mine, I don't care what happens to them that absurdity We're just gonna try to forget that that was there and now let's go after infant damnation

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Not seemingly even knowing What the confessional position was and again and again these folks they're not really a part of this conversation, but the serious people that produced the

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Westminster Confession of Faith and I Disagree with portions the Westminster. They're relatively small portions, but I do disagree with portions

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Westminster And I do so recognizing historical backgrounds and all that kind of fun stuff and But even when you disagree you have to recognize the incredible depth of Thought and scholarship and reflection and debate and one of the things that's wonderful about it

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Is that you know London's Baptist Confession takes the Westminster and the Savoy and some others and you know make some changes and Look, we can for example in the

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London Baptist Confession. We have the actual assertion of the active and passive obedience of Christ, which is not in the

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Westminster Confession of Faith, but There are many people Who were framers the

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Westminster who believed in that? But what they were doing and I think

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Baptists need to hear this too. What they were doing is they are trying to provide a Summary statement that would have the widest possible

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Means of bringing the Reformed together Without excluding people that didn't need to be excluded or including people that didn't need to be included

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That's not always that's not always an easy line to follow And you can agree or disagree as to exactly how successful But that's what they're trying to do and the

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Presbyterians that's something that a Baptist again need to hear this Presbyterians have come well not all

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Presbyterians Excuse me, um a Number of Presbyterians, I would say the majority have come to understand that you have to allow

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For some variation of interpretation Of the

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Westminster Confession of Faith or you're gonna be standing there all alone If you demand

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You know cross the T's dot the I's just like I do type of thinking

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You're not gonna have a denomination. You're not gonna have a church You're not gonna be able to cooperate together to accomplish things and so the chapter 10 paragraph 3

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Which speaks of elect infants is written in such a way as to allow a range of understanding

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You could believe if you wanted to that all infants are elect and there are people who believe that You can believe that there are only certain infants that are elect or that a small number of infants are elect it doesn't say

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That's how you Especially deal with a subject like that Where and this is the reality where we don't have biblical revelation

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What we're doing and this is where we we will never there's there is no reason even talk to people

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Who don't believe in Romans chapter 5 who don't believe in Ephesians chapter 1 and don't believe in John chapter 6 or have perverted silly

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Upside down. I'm gonna stand on my head and spin in circles ways of trying to get around the sovereignty of God We're not we're not in the same group.

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We're not talking with you amongst the Reformed who believe

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Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura and practice these things then

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There is a limited amount of information. And so the way it's expressed is meant to allow for differing viewpoints without causing division

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But it what it does require you to do is take seriously the federal headship of Adam Because if anyone is saved who is in Adam it is by grace

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Must be by grace Can only be by grace and it safeguards the freedom of God He has and I've said this we've documented now from the beginning

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God has just as much freedom in the salvation of infants as he does in adults So it's it's not a controversy.

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It has you know, this was to you know You can go back. You don't want to go back into the early church

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Because it's been a controversy back then And a lot of the answers you're not gonna want

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The vast majority of them weren't had nothing to do with all babies go to heaven

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In fact the development of infant baptism Was part of all of that despite what

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Ken Wilson's utter confusion is on that matter Just so far off the map on that one

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It's not even funny But that you know I just thought about that that might be causing some of the confusion of these guys if they actually believe what he says

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About infant baptism and Augusta and stuff like that because he's just totally totally off on that So, yeah, maybe that is a part of it

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I I don't know you raised your microphone So yeah, you know, it struck me when I read the

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Westminster there and I'm trying to sort out what they're what Layton is saying That's the

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London Baptist to there. I don't write. Yes as I read them. It's like but wait a minute guys

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You don't understand when you speak of someone who is saved it is utterly Improper to not refer to them as being elect when you speak of the elect

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It's improper not to refer to them as being saved the two concepts go to hand to hand together.

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You can't have One without the other so when they read this they're constantly looking for the non elect the non elect

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But if you look at number four, it speaks of others who are not elect Number three does not speak of the not elect however, you want to understand it whether you agree with it or not if You're going to apply what's there the point of calling them elect is because they're saved the point of calling them saved

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Is that they're elect I? Don't understand why that's hard for them. Well, and the the most important part of it is that This is

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This has to be taken it must be understood as Protecting the freedom of God.

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I was looking for a I thought I had it in Dropbox But I don't have in Dropbox on my home computer

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I was gonna read the rest of it, but anyway It's it's protecting the freedom of God and again

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You just sit back and go so y 'all are just catching up on what was said Almost 400 years ago now, okay

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Whatever. That's nothing. Nothing like them. All right So yeah, he'd said

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James White rejects the idea that every aborted baby goes to heaven. I again, you have to You there there isn't any reason unfortunately to talk with these folks because that we don't have a common foundation so they're

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The entire theology of God the entire theology of the triune work of redemption and federal headship and holiness and You know come to think of it sadly in light of this

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I I would imagine that when Provisionists if they watch the debate

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I did with Shabir Ali in the In the mosque and harassed me in South Africa in 2013

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Wow coming up on 11 years ago now Wow As I spoke to those

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Muslims about how they can have Peace with God. I don't think provisionists would agree with what

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I said. I don't think they would they don't have the they don't have a Similar anthropology.

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It's that's that's that that is really really sad. All right, I continue on a

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Thread developed which is very very interesting About I Don't have the entire threat

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I have latent responses and this was about Judas and then

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Namor jumped in and asked about Cyrus So someone asked in Light of his rejection of the decree of God.

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What about Judas could Judas have not betrayed Jesus even though This is the prophecy now stop for a second

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Algo knows this and The various Algos from different countries that I used to meet while traveling who would claim the title of Algo for This country in that country and stuff like that, which is sort of cool

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Anyway, I'm not sure what happens when Algo travels those countries I'm not sure if they have a thumb war to see who's who the real

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Algo is But when what debate

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From 2014 Contained an extensive discussion of Judas The man

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I was debating who is now dead the man. I was debating. He did not die immediately thereafter

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Clarify that many years But the man

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I was debating said Judas could have not betrayed

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Jesus Remember that was more what the subject was it was open theism

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It was open theism So, how do you open theists answer that question?

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The way that Layton flowers did He says yes, he could have chose not to betray

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Jesus and someone else could have But if that is what happened, then that would have been the prophecy

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The prophecy isn't the cause of the event now. This is where no matter how hard he tries

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Layton's positions utterly incoherent every time he has been pressed Chris date pressed him on Genesis 50

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The Blather that came out of his mouth It's just that it's incoherent blather

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It doesn't make any sense. Not only is it not connected to Genesis 50 at all but it just it doesn't make sense when you press on it and so Notice the prophecy isn't the cause of the event

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Well, no one's saying prophecy causes things the question is how does

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God have the ability to give prophecy and Christians have always believed it's because God has exhaustive knowledge of future events

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Why do we believe that because the Bible says so Okay, it's right there.

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That's why You know some people in ETS tried to get rid of the open theist because they say no

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God does not have exhaustive knowledge of future events. He cannot know what free creatures gonna do or they're not free

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You can't know what an autonomous creature is gonna do or he's not autonomous that's that's the argument and they're right

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They're exactly right so It's not that the prophecy is causing the event the question is how does

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God Have the knowledge of what's going to happen in the future. Now if you just use the simple for knowledge view

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Then you are stuck with God created and then learned what the result was because if he creates and forms the fabric of time including the events within time then he has a decree and that means what happens has purpose and intentionality and All of it can result in the glory of God and all that kind of stuff, which we know they don't believe that part.

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Okay But if it's just simple for knowledge There cannot be purpose

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It's just God saw that Judas was going to do this It can't be that it was

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God's intention to use Judas in this way because that means then

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God is Sovereignly ordering the events in time to a particular end

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Can't do that That destroys free will libertarian free will as well

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Gotta get rid of that Then you have the Molinus and I'm not even going there not anymore

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I'm so thankful that in the new Radio Free Geneva video That Tim put that little segment in from the debate

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At the same church, we're doing all the debates at in this next trip except for one With brother

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Stratton on Molinism and the look on my face Um, you gotta quit playing with the cameras here dude, you keep you keep making the the lights

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I'm sitting here going but what's what's good I Know but that that was green just a second ago.

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Now that one's green You're you're you're you're trying to you're trying to do everything you can to distract me over there See what

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I put up with folks. You don't know what happens here. Okay, you just don't know What's I talking about?

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Oh, yeah about Bucky and and Stark's parents and the look on my face and that was not the only time

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I think the camera just didn't catch me the number of times I was sitting there just going What are we doing here what does this have to do with scripture it has nothing to do in scripture

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So you can go the Molinus perspective, but he's not even using Molinus language here So Then you have and I'm not sure what order these came in I'll just read this next one

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You've got the Cyrus question And I think it's an answer to Cyrus It says he could have if he wanted to when

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Jesus prophesied that Peter would deny him three times Did that mean Jesus caused Peter to want to deny

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Jesus or was Jesus revealing the will of Peter? No one is arguing that God's prophecies could turn out to be wrong we are arguing prophecy isn't causal well open theists do argue

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Repeatedly that God's prophecies were wrong. They do they do

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Listen to the last program I did on unbelievable with John Sanders. He argued very strongly that prophecy is not

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Something that is certain at all and as I pointed out in that debate in 2014 in John 13 19

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Jesus Says the disciples from now on I'm telling you before it takes place So when it does take place you may know and believe and understand that I am he

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Ego I me Jesus made his ability to reveal future events to his disciples a ground of their being able to know

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Who he truly is the I am That's sort of important So, yes people are arguing and that God's prophecies could turn out to be wrong

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But again, if you believe in libertarian free will there is no way for God to prophesy

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What a truly free -willed person is going to do before they do it

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Otherwise, they don't have the choice to do anything else This is not a new conversation.

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I remember years and years ago in seminary a lot of class to take a seminar you have these books that Will give you snippets of this writer and snippets of that writer something and and I I just remember it was one of the few

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Times that I was going. Well, this is really apologetically relevant the the discussions before the

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Reformation About this topic this very issue. It's an old one

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Nothing new about it at all and I can guarantee you the viewpoints that the provisionists are presenting

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Were all known and rejected long long long long long long long ago

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Um So also one must consider the fact that God can prophecy about something that would happen if things were different therefore the thing that was prophesied actually does not happen like when

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Saul was hunting David in the city of Kilo what Again, one of the open theists favorite texts and one of the

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Molinus favorite texts But all that actually happened there was David said

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Will they turn me over to Saul? God says yes, they will David leaves he didn't say you're gonna stay here and they're gonna do that He gives wisdom to his servant as a result

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David and his men boogie someplace else So this is not middle knowledge.

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This is not well if then anything like that at all Here's the issue

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If God reveals that Judas is going to Betray Christ and reveals this in Scripture Judas is gonna do it and it's not because well just doesn't want to but God's gonna force him

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No in reality God restrains evil

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He doesn't again if they had a biblical anthropology if they had a biblical doctrine of God if they recognized

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That the poison of asps is un is in our lips and took it seriously

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Then it wouldn't be all poor Judas. He's just such an innocent guy and God's making him do bad stuff

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Ridiculous, it's absurd if you have a biblical view then you understand Judas is a bad guy

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His heart has not been changed. He loves money and People will do some really bad stuff for a small amount of money

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Which he ended up doing? But what if he decides to do that six months early?

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Hmm, you don't have a decree in provisionism. There's no decree determining these things.

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There's no decree forming the fabric of time And so what if six months earlier?

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Something unforeseen happened and a friend of Judas Got in trouble the

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Romans need extra money and Judas is like, I think I know I could get some money You see the crucifixion needs to take place in a certain place at a certain time in a certain way to fulfill all these prophecies and to accomplish redemption

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But once you get rid of the decree now, you've got all these libertarian free

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Autonomous creatures just doing their things and if you're a if you're a open theist God doesn't even know what they are and Layton can say well, yeah,

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God God does know but he can't tell us how and still defend libertarian free will can't be done

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Every attempt has failed And so why couldn't

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Judas decide to betray Jesus early I Why not one of the other disciples we're not told

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Biblically we are told That Jesus over and over again said my hour has not yet.

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I want to believe in a theology that understands what that says and That ain't provisionism and that ain't open theism and that ain't

40:08

Molin ism at all Then the last one here, this is a gross misrepresentation of God based on bad philosophy

40:20

Knowledge is not causal The Prophet is not foretelling what God has determined Judas to do

40:29

Really I Would say to you the reason the Prophet can foretell What juice is going to do is?

40:36

Because God has decreed that it's going to happen in this way at this time in this place

40:44

Just like the second coming Just like everything else is certain in God's purposes, you know all my days written in his book.

40:51

That's psalm 139 some bad philosophy It's just Bible. We need philosophy He is foretelling what

40:57

Judas will freely choose to do. Yep. He definitely did So he did freely choose to do and how

41:04

God will use that evil choice for his ultimate good It's Judas's evil choice

41:12

But it's under the decree of God and that's where provisionism has always just gone

41:19

Because you can't have those two Biblically revealed realities.

41:24

That's why when he tries to do Genesis 50 he falls apart when he tries to do Isaiah 10 He falls apart when he tries to do acts for falls apart can't can't handle it.

41:32

Can't do it Can't do it. Can't have those things So But notice that the utilization of philosophical language there rather than hey,

41:44

I Prefer theology and I want my theory my philosophy to deal with that.

41:50

Okay Wow, I knew things be going fast here, let's close these down and Trent Horne asked a question

42:04

For Protestants who object to veneration of Mary I ask Who is the most important human person in history?

42:15

MIHP I'll be honest with you Man in I don't know what

42:21

MIHP means. Oh, well Not Jesus. He's a divine person. He got into some trouble with that had to have some discussions about that Hypostatic Union Caledonian definition so on so forth not

42:33

John the Baptist Least in the kingdom greater than him. It's Mary the God -bearer

42:40

What what praise does the MI most important human person there it is most important human person deserve

42:52

Again if you read the New Testament, you'd never get that idea. You never get that idea. The writer of the

42:58

Hebrews can write The the Hall of Fame of Faith not there

43:08

She describes herself as a humble servant She's blessed amongst women But the most important person in human history

43:18

You don't get that from Scripture you Today you get it from all sorts of unbiblical a historical traditional development over centuries

43:33

But you don't get that from Scripture. You don't get that from the early church. It's really not

43:39

There are two major historically two major development areas and For anybody who says oh, you're just getting this from other people.

43:48

He could go back to the church history lessons. I taught in the late 90s

43:56

Think Razor's Kiss converted them from real audio to mp3 if I recall correctly And they're still out there somewhere.

44:02

They were like 50 some autumn and then I did it again. There were 80 some of You can go back to the 90s

44:09

And I made this point back then Very clearly when you study early church history the development of monasticism the

44:18

Desert Fathers in the 3rd century is an absolutely determinative point in the development of numerous

44:33

Abhorrent theologies and marriage view of women Human sexuality all sorts of things

44:41

You can see it in Jerome and Paula. There's we can go into a lot of that discussion. But so you've got the

44:47

Desert Fathers and the development of monasticism that form monasticism

44:54

And then you have The utilization Especially under Cyril's emphasis, but Coming to full fruition at Chalcedon with the use of Theotokos, Theotokos in modern

45:13

Greek pronunciation Theotokos God -bearer It's a Christological title, but it's in reference to Mary Once that language is adopted

45:23

Now I say boom in the sense of Marian devotion

45:30

I should you know another thing about the The fact that AI is producing transcripts of everything

45:36

I say boom Not sure how boom is gonna come across boom

45:44

But There is an explosion in Marian devotion

45:51

Titles things like that, but you still don't have Immaculate conception till Edmer bought the assumption

46:02

That's that's centuries down the line Way way way down.

46:07

I mean in some instances a thousand years down the line But without those developments again outside of Scripture you wouldn't have any of that So anyways

46:26

Mary is blessed by God But as Jesus put it

46:32

When Mary when someone blessed the the breast that nursed you so on the womb of the boy

46:38

He's on blessed rather as he who does will have gone. I'll take Jesus's view on that then

46:44

More than the later development that we have Okay, and then the other thing I want to do and man,

46:49

I'm not sure we're gonna get back to Truman here And obviously

46:56

Doing as much preparation as I can With bodily weakness and Everything else going on so there is a section in a book

47:11

That Trent Horn wrote called when Protestants argue like atheists 12 weird ways that anti Catholics mimic secular skeptics now

47:23

His call for for example, he Tells Catholics they need to use better argumentation than frequently they use appreciate them.

47:35

I am often Embarrassed By comments that I see on Twitter I was

47:43

I was embarrassed Every time Francis speaks, I'm gonna be embarrassed

47:51

By my fellow Protestants by some of the things they're gonna say Many of them do not understand papal infallibility

48:02

Many of them do not understand The ramifications of that doctrine.

48:08

They don't know anything about for example, and I just mentioned about Theotokos There are lots of Protestants.

48:14

No idea what it originally originally meant why it was relevant

48:20

Why it's actually an orthodox description of Christ as the

48:27

God man and Mary's role as bearing the God man But not in regards to an exaltation of Mary which has inevitably resulted over time

48:42

So there are a lot of bad arguments the Jack chick comic books

48:49

Stuff like that, you know what? I just realized something I Bet I Bet Trent Horne Has never been identified as the

49:01

Antichrist by Jack chick, but I have I got you there Trent what it

49:07

I got you I haven't identified as Antichrist, but it wasn't about Roman Catholic stuff.

49:14

It was about King James only is and My book on the King James only controversy. So there you go but you've got the

49:22

Alberto stuff and And and and I've got another leg up on Trent. I'll bet you

49:28

Alberto Rivera himself Never told Trent Horne that Trent Horne was going to hell

49:34

But he did tell me that I was going to hell because I was carrying a New American Standard Bible Oh That was tight,

49:44

I don't know you weren't watching this but I was looking the camera and that bus just went between your truck and my truck and Thankfully, he slowed down a lot

49:53

I could just just see both of us going. Yeah Running out there. Anyways, um

50:00

So look there are bad arguments out there but I got I get mentioned in this and So I want us to think about what this argument is just let me read this section

50:10

Very early on in the book this according to Kindle Which can be sometimes accurate sometimes not page 11 of 173 so early on This same complaint about disproving a universal negative can be seen in Protestant debates over souls of Dura Consider what

50:33

James White said in his 1996 debate with Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid. Now, by the way, I'll just go ahead and give

50:40

Trent a heads up. This will probably be on the previous thing in Dallas but one of the things

50:45

I want to find out from Trent is Whether he agrees with me that the argumentation used in 1993

50:55

By Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and their debate with the two fundamentalist guys Jackson and Nemec That When they asked

51:07

Jackson and Nemec, how do you know Matthew wrote Matthew? I want to ask Trent Do you agree with that argumentation?

51:16

Because you don't know that Matthew and Matthew You know that every person the papal biblical commission does not know that Matthew and Matthew and most of them don't believe

51:28

Matthew Matthew anyways So Has Catholic answers changed and would you agree that their argumentation back then was erroneous?

51:39

I'd be interested in knowing Anyway so I Guess it's a quotation for me again.

51:48

Kindle doesn't always format things, right? now some opponents of sols criteria have engaged in what can only be called cheap debating tricks and attempting to force the defender of scriptural sufficiency to prove a universal negative

52:01

That is the less honest debater might attempt to force me to prove the non -existence of another rule of faith

52:06

Since I am saying that scripture is unique in its function as the rule of faith of the church now

52:12

Let me just stop. I remember this It was a the

52:22

What what do they call that wind in? Southern California when it blows the

52:28

Santa Ana's were blowing and And the church we were having the debate in did not have air conditioning it was

52:36

I'd say it's about 96 degrees in the church You're just sweating all over yourself.

52:42

It was Yeah, that wasn't that wasn't good. Anyway, I Forget which number debate this was

52:54

But It I had already done the solo scriptura with Jerry That was first one we did in Long Beach, I'm not sure if there was another one between that and this one

53:06

I don't think there was Because if this was 96 Then I know

53:13

I debated Jerry on solo scriptura in 99 on Long Island and I think 99 was with Mitch Pacqua in San Diego at a church with air conditioning

53:27

So I'd have to go back and look and see exactly where it fit in all these places But we are already getting this to where Catholic answers

53:39

Catholic answers has a long history of Being hesitant to take positive

53:49

Positions they they prefer being in the negative. They prefer especially going after souls return

53:56

And so we had already been having conversations with people Even though this is still before internet.

54:03

It's not before phyto net look up phyto net So and having extensive dialogues at that point in time with with people on this subject

54:13

Where they would just by default? Accept the claims of Rome and And Just say well you have to prove the non -existence of another rule of faith.

54:27

We're gonna accept this rule of faith We're gonna say it's infallible But you have to just prove it and I'm like well but and In my presentation,

54:39

I said there's positive biblical revelation as to what the nature of this rule of faith is

54:46

It's God -breathed Here's what Jesus said about it. Here's what the Apostles they don't say this about anything else in fact they warn against Tradition and if you want to say well, they warned against bad tradition

55:00

But you still even if you want to talk about good tradition will never find them Speaking of quote -unquote good tradition in the way they speak of Scripture and if you want to talk about DDD There's a big long

55:25

Layton flowers tweet that just got posted so someone now this says 34 minutes ago.

55:31

That doesn't make any sense. I wasn't even Anyway, we'll we'll take a look at it actually okay.

55:38

This is this is in response to a tweet so maybe he's not listening Oh, I'm heartbroken

55:44

Back to our subject here before we completely run out of time so So I said some might challenge me to demonstrate that no other rule of faith could possibly exist

55:56

To illustrate this I call your attention to my pen I'm sure it was a very fine cross pen and in fact.

56:02

I have a feeling it was my very nice gray Cross pen remember every everybody had them that that you get them for graduation all sorts of who even does that anymore?

56:14

sadly Now you have self -defense pens I was giving them out at church on Sunday gave out nine of them at church on Sunday to folks

56:22

Some people liked him anyways to illustrate this I call attention my pen Yes, my pen if our debate this evening was that I was going to stand here and say

56:29

This is the only pen of its kind all the universe How would I go about proving it well the only way

56:34

I could prove the statement? There is no other pen like this in all the universe is if I looked in all of your purses and all of your shirt pockets

56:40

White goes on to say that he would have to search the entire universe to prove that his pen is the only one of its Kind and since that's an absurd request it follows that those who say other pens like his exist

56:51

Must prove that's true by producing such a pen He has no burden of proving there are no other pens like his one -of -a -kind pen

57:00

When applied to scripture the argument takes the following form Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith in order to prove there is no other infallible rule of faith ie

57:10

Solus matura one would have to search the entire universe for another infallible rule of faith That's an absurd request therefore the one who says scripture is not the only infallible rule of faith ie deny

57:19

Solus matura must prove the existence of another infallible rule of faith well now What Trent doesn't give you is the rest of my presentation

57:29

Where I give you the positive claims of scripture itself in regards to its nature and talk about the nature of ultimate authorities

57:41

That ultimate authorities cannot prove their authority by reference to another authority or they're no longer an ultimate authority

57:49

So I go through all of that and that is central to this and that's central to the argument that given

57:56

I can do this for scripture and You have this scriptural testimony and it's consistent and as the authority of Jesus behind it then if you're gonna claim

58:07

There's another aspect of this then you need to be able to prove it and Rome's attempts to use

58:14

Well hold the traditions you're taught by word of mouth or by letter they fail upon examination miserably

58:24

So there's the full argument as it was given But here's where the problem is, but this sounds like a common argument that atheists make

58:35

No, it can't be a common argument that atheism. You can say it sounds like Um, but sounds like is not valid argumentation itself, especially if there are categorical differences in The foundation of what's being said

58:52

I'm saying that it's a divine revelation That scripture is

58:58

God speaking It's divine revelation that men were carried along by the

59:03

Holy Spirit as They spoke from God. It's divine revelation that Jesus said have you not read what

59:11

God spoke to you saying? That's divine revelation. Atheists don't believe in divine revelation And since it's divine revelation, these things are all relevant to scripture if you're going to say that there is something

59:25

Next to scripture that you need to have to complete scripture or is an equal authority

59:31

Then you need to be able to give the same level of argumentation that I gave For scripture and they can't do that So But this sounds like a common argument that atheists make you could put the argument this way

59:45

Natural things are the only kinds of things that exist Some that is a presupposition of the naturalistic materialistic worldview

59:56

We're already outside of the realm of argumentation that I'm using and that is we have divine revelation

01:00:04

We need to believe all of divine revelation and divine revelation says X and it does not say

01:00:09

Y In order to prove that there there are no supernatural things one would have to search the entire universe

01:00:16

That's an absurd request. Therefore the one who says natural things are not the only things that Kinds of things must prove the existence of a supernatural thing ie

01:00:26

God. So here's what atheists will say Presuppositionally they will assume naturalistic materialism and somehow

01:00:37

Trent thinks That that's parallel To my saying here's the divine revelation

01:00:48

That we all agree on, you know, it used to be anyways when we had debates on this stuff. We at least agreed on Scripture is the honest us.

01:00:56

I don't believe I Don't believe the math vast majority Of the people on the papal biblical commission would have nearly as high view of scripture as I have

01:01:09

They wouldn't have as high view of scripture as Pat Madrid had I'm concerned

01:01:17

With what Trent has said when he tries to argue in state honest us We're getting bad here.

01:01:23

I'm gonna have to wrap up and His willingness to accept quote -unquote critical scholarship that rejects

01:01:30

Pauline authorship of second Timothy I'm not sure where they're going on that to be honest with you

01:01:39

But he says each of these arguments begins the assumption that a certain thing a pen

01:01:46

Scripture the natural world is the only member of a certain kind. I Gave specific attributes of scripture.

01:01:57

I did not presuppositionally exalt scripture in that way. That's where the argument falls apart The pen was simply an illustration of something that scripture says is unique its nature

01:02:10

Naturalistic materialism is not saying well, it's unique in having these characteristics

01:02:17

It's just simply saying that's all there is so there's a fundamental Category error in the argument

01:02:26

But these arguments are flawed because the assumption in their first premises is never proved the

01:02:34

Assumption in the premises is what is given by scripture itself of itself And that's where that's why

01:02:43

I'm a little surprised that this argument would be presented little disappointing, but Want to respond to it and pretty much start running out of juice at that point voice juice

01:02:55

I guess is what we're doing. So I Apologize, I didn't get back to Karl Truman it would fit right along with it

01:03:14

Let me at least try the thing that I told you would at least fit

01:03:20

How's that? I will try to I pull if I speak more slowly Pull the volume back

01:03:26

I'll be good. Maybe we'll see we didn't test this Also, I think one of the things that the that we need to be aware of that history makes us aware of is the way

01:03:38

Doctrine develops now. That's a controversial term in some circles when I say doctrine develops

01:03:43

What I really don't mean is the truth changes that I think is how we tend to think of it that I suspect is how?

01:03:49

The current Pope thinks of it as well, but that's a discussion for a different day The expression the formulation of doctrine changes over time the grasp of truth deepens over time such that things that one could get away with saying about the second person of the

01:04:03

Trinity at Beginning of the fourth century one cannot say them at the end of the fourth century, okay

01:04:11

Doctrinal development we need to recognize we live in a day where that has a very

01:04:23

Important central meaning within Roman Catholicism Thanks to John Henry Cardinal Newman and those who've come after him

01:04:30

Yves Congar that whole Area that most Protestants don't have any knowledge of I appreciate that he said

01:04:40

The formulation and expression Truth doesn't change

01:04:46

But our formulation and expression of that Necessarily changes over time as we encounter new questions

01:04:56

New issues, but at the same time and this is very very important at the same time doctrinal development and Development of tradition must be distinguished from one another.

01:05:19

I think it would be I think it would be Simplistic very easy an easy task and Carl can do this

01:05:31

To demonstrate What happens when you have a

01:05:40

Development in doctrine due to a controversy that then is taken as the foundation for another development

01:05:50

And then another development another development over time That's how purgatory comes into existence

01:05:58

That's how the Immaculate Conception comes into existence. It's one small step of doctrinal development creating tradition and the key issue

01:06:13

We were just talking in response to a Roman Catholic How do you distinguish

01:06:23

Between valid doctrinal development in the sense of Expression Answering of questions

01:06:34

Let's use the illustration I've used before staying within the range of the headlights

01:06:43

Not running out into the darkness Staying within the range of headlights so that the things that we are saying are

01:06:52

Good and necessary Consequences of what is in biblical revelation.

01:07:00

That's the issue Rome says the bodily assumption of Mary is a good and necessary consequence of that which is found in Revelation The problem is that Revelation is not limited to Scripture Instead you have a living

01:07:21

Magisterium that can reflect upon the content of the deposit of faith and come up with all sorts of wacky stuff that the

01:07:29

Apostles Never believed and never would have believed So you can't go there

01:07:35

But how far can you go? It really seems like a lot of Protestants are exceptionally

01:07:46

Nervous About anyone asking this question Where do we draw the line?

01:07:55

There's one of the section falls out. I'm gonna play that and we wrap up. I Was very helped in this by the essay by the

01:08:03

Catholic theologian Bernard Lonergan discussing mapping out the way theology moves towards the

01:08:08

Nicene formulation now I'll Mark this as our new

01:08:15

Starting point because we are really close I'm trying to Oop didn't want to do that.

01:08:30

Oh That's how you do it, okay, I Wanted you to hear what he said mapping out the development to the

01:08:40

Nicene tradition It's a short period of time very short period of time in comparison to where we are today and You must

01:08:50

Understand and I know that Karl Truman does understand this but everyone listening to Karl Truman needs to understand it as well

01:09:01

Roman Catholics use the concept of doctrinal development to the

01:09:07

Nicene standards to then substantiate Doctrinal development and not just not just the

01:09:13

Nicene symbol But to canons and decrees and Then that's used to go to Ephesus and go to Chalcedon Not just the symbols but the canons and decrees

01:09:28

Leo's tome comes in there Pope Pope Leo's tome comes in there and you need to understand that from their perspective

01:09:36

Once you establish those parameters for doctrinal development That's what leads you to the doctrinal development of everything else

01:09:48

Ecclesiology sacrament ology soteriology it's all the same thing and You see by the time you get to Nicaea to Just how corrupt this has become said over and over again the biblical argumentation used to defend the veneration of icons at Nicaea to is

01:10:15

Light years from the Argumentation Athanasius will use to defend the

01:10:22

Nicene symbol During the Aryan resurgence and there's only 400 years between them but that's how fast this kind of deviating doctrinal development can take place

01:10:37

So I'm just simply saying to my fellow Christians you have to consider these things and When you do have that deviation, what is the only way that you can recognize it?

01:10:53

If this is where the truth is and then there's this much of a deviation and then this much afterwards and this much after How do you know where?

01:11:03

Because if you get to this point and you now accept the idea that you need to have this to interpret this

01:11:08

How can you have any reformation just asking the question just asking the question

01:11:19

Sorry about getting all sudden quiet. There's there's there's guys and trucks cranking the volume up right now I'm trying to trying to hear what

01:11:25

I'm what I'm saying. I appreciate your listen appreciate you're putting up with my Coughing and hacking and everything else.

01:11:31

I apologize Just the best we can do today Lord willing maybe next week.

01:11:38

We'll be a Little bit better. Well, we'll see cuz I pick up Actually next

01:11:45

Tuesday, which is when we should be doing the program Is when I pick up the RV and begin to do the stuff that we need to do to get it ready to go