December 6, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Responding to Lutheran Anti-Calvinism and Misrepresentation

Yes. Well one of the two of us is here one of us is not here. But that's okay because half of us is better than none of us and welcome to the dividing line a little late. Which is why we don't do this on a network because then the network would have been having a cow at that particular point in Time but hey, it doesn't really matter.

So we're here. Anyways, and the phone lines hopefully work and You can call in at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and that includes those who are so Tremendously brave behind the keyboard who are in their early 20s someplace.

Including a fellow by name Josh s. I believe Josh s is a student at a think he's. If I had something more than dial-up, this would come up a whole lot faster than 21 point something. Okay, but it's just sitting there spinning staring at me right now, but the Lord will provide in time.

Yeah. Yeah, well, they helped me right now because it's just sitting there. There we go. Let me see a grad student in math. There's okay at the University of Kentucky fell by a name of Josh s. It was the one I was talking about when I talked about the the Infanto Lutherans.

Because I wouldn't have ever guessed. He was actually a graduate student by the the way he he behaves and writes. Some of you may recall that I Responded to a Childish Inaccurate Straw man posting of a silly poem.

I mean if if a poem is supposed to have some meaning it needs to have accuracy in in what it says Humor if it is really humor touches on reality and actually represents The position it's critiquing when you can't get it, right when you when you aren't even close.

Then it's not it's not funny, and it's not useful and Reverend since he demands that Reverend Paul McCain the head of Concordia publishing. Which is still just absolutely shocks me given the behavior.

I've seen from this man Posted this along with various sundry other wild-eyed Swing the sword every which direction type of tax on Calvinism obviously not meant to Convince the Calvinist because if you don't actually represent what they're saying with even as a skosh and Yoda of Fairness they're gonna go.

What's with this dude? He? Posted a a poem and I I pointed it out. I said you know what this is not how real dialogue should take place about these issues and if you really want to Discuss these issues, and if you want to actually I mean the only reason you should be doing this is if you actually think that us Calvinists Should embrace your perspectives on things right?

I mean why else would you be doing this other than just simply to make yourself a a real pain and because you enjoy behaving poorly in public and so if you want to actually Accomplish something maybe you should like accurately represent What what does I'd saying and then actually have some meaningful discussions about these things.

Otherwise you just simply throwing out your own traditions. Maybe you have no idea what Calvinists actually believe you've just been told by somebody else what Calvinists believe. And so you just keep flailing away on that on that straw man thinking you somehow accomplished something.

I don't know so I Basically said in in my response I said You know this is not how conversations should take place. Why don't we why don't we do something useful for me? The heart and soul of my belief in Calvinism Comes to me from the exegesis of the text of Scripture.

It comes to me from God's spoken word. I take seriously what God has said what he has said in his word what he has said in the incarnation and So let's listen to what Jesus said. I mean one of the things that's just over the past week or so as I have been listening for some odd reason.

There's just been this explosion of Lutheran anti-Calvinism and Maybe it's just always been I know it's always been there. There's I've seen in various Sunday publications this this rabid form of Lutheran anti-Calvinism, but I don't run into it a lot.

Maybe we just don't run the same circles. You know I don't know maybe I just tried to ignore it. Maybe it's because I've known some Lutherans it didn't behave so poorly as that and Actually took the time to learn we believe and when they did it was like oh wait.

Oh, there's a whole lot more here. I did read bondage as well sounds a little bit like what he was saying you know there's differences. And you know we've got these liturgical issues over here, but you know at least we can talk about it.

So maybe that's just what I've I've tried to view all Lutherans that way and been sort of silly in the process because obviously there are some who just don't come up to that level and so I said let's let's listen to the words of Jesus and and What was really odd is you keep hearing over and over and over again you Calvinists don't talk about Jesus.

If you talk about sovereignty of God you write a paper about it should just be about Jesus. That's all you ever talk about just just talk about Jesus, and it's like Wow where did this utter imbalance come from.

I mean should we not exegete a text that doesn't have the name of Christ in it. Do you have to start every single? Sentence or every other sentence with the name Jesus to somehow be properly balanced.

I? Mean it's silly to say that Calvinistic theology is not Christa centric. It's silly to say that Christ has no role, and it's all we talk about is the is a abstract sovereign God and all the rest of stuff.

Just in case y 'all really are wanting us to see the truth of what you believe stop attacking straw men stop. That it doesn't work and automatically turns everybody off because we know you're not listening, and if you don't know what you're talking about, okay?

The next time some loser you don't talk about Jesus I'm just I'm just gonna just go come on get get a life get an apologetic get an argument something here. Because that's just silly. Absolutely positively ridiculous.

I can't tell you how many times I have talked about the absolute centrality of Christ the fact that Christ That God saves only in Christ Jesus that that only in union with Christ. All I mean that that is just a gross canard and anyone who uses it obviously has no intention of being taken seriously so that being said I invited Reverend McCain to Discuss John chapter 6 with me.

I would like to see how his Anticalvinism and his mockery of the eternal election of God and things like that Fits into the text of Scripture. Let's let's go to that. Which is God breathed Rather than to some Lutheran statement of faith somewhere.

Well his response was I don't want to take my eyes off Jesus. Which I found grossly ironic in light of the fact that I wanted to actually listen to what Jesus was saying. I guess some people just like to stare at images and not listen to words and so that was once I saw that kind of response, and how utterly serious it was and Lacking in meaning I thought okay.

This is this isn't worthwhile. This is not getting us anywhere. Let's go back to dealing with Islam and dealing with things that actually matter because folks who behave like this just Just aren't worth fighting with and I get back from from st. Louis and one of the first things when I get back is a a link to this Josh s and it's sad to see a blog that Has as its title here we stand that is just so childish in its in its behavior and in its writing and someone Responded to the stuff that said here.

And I actually just in mixed company wouldn't even bother reading some of what's found here these folks like treading on the line and Doing things like that, but part of it was just Mocking anyone who is a Baptist who would call himself reformed in the first place You know if Calvin would have killed you then you're not really reformed and so evidently they don't believe in Semper Reform and a they don't care that that some of us have you know really put ourselves out there in defense of Calvinistic soteriology and I'll just mean Calvinistic.

But but the all five points and everything else and that we've seen a lot of doors slammed in our face because of our willingness to defend those things and They don't really care about that. They just want to go back to you know the old days and and So you're not really formed.

Well. Okay. That's fine if if this graduate math student in Someplace defines what reformed is okay? I guess I'm not that's a that's okay I'm still looking for his books on those subjects presenting the doctrines of grace and introducing people to those great truths.

But I haven't actually found them anywhere on Amazon yet, but I'm sure they'll be there eventually because It's a Josh s fellow does define those things and so someone wrote in and said you know since you're willing to name names you know he's talking about myself and Phil Johnson and and others and Doesn't like that we don't have comments on my blog well, it's people like him that would make comments ridiculous.

Someone said hey, why don't you call in if you're so if you're so confident? Why don't you call it as a? I've I've you know you don't call into programs like that when they control the they control the calls well, you know what if if someone uses profanity or Or won't actually have a dialogue.

Yeah, we do control the lines, but I've been Doing this program now if I'm guessing at this guy's age since Josh s was born. Okay, right about the same year. He was born is when we started doing this program and So I've been I have a long long history we can document of How we treat callers to this program?

And I was dealing with apologetics issues the theological issues when Josh s was in diapers and was treating people Fairly Long well Josh s hasn't started doing that yet so for a long long time before Josh s learned how to use a keyboard and As someone has pointed out we have callers like a Pierre haven't heard Pete from Pierre for a few months.

But our semi regular Mormon caller, I guess we haven't been talking enough about Calvinism to get to get that and So on and so forth and so anyway we we have a long long history and You know it's it's possible that these folks actually couldn't hold on to our one our one rule which which means you actually have to be able to control your tongue and Not use profanity and and speak as a Christian or at least as a respectful person.

I suppose that would be the one thing that would keep them from calling in but To be perfectly honest I think the reason is these people know that when you hide behind a keyboard you can say lots of things.

But I have I have actually experienced the situation where someone was Ripping and shredding on me and did not know that I was actually present physically and When I then faced them, oh my goodness the the personality change was pretty Amazing pretty amazing indeed, and I think that's what the unfortunately I think that's what the internet does is.

It takes people who otherwise? would would never say a word because well, they wouldn't have a chance to they wouldn't be given the platform to and The songs over it gives them opportunity to be very brave and to to spout their their stuff out there, but they won't.

They won't face me. Even though they cannot demonstrate that I would be unfair to them. I would challenge them and I would challenge them strongly. I would challenge this young man to actually stand behind what he says and I would challenge his logic and his consistency and I would challenge him biblically.

And that's what people find to be mean and nasty is is is you actually ask probing? Questions that demonstrate the inconsistency of a person's position but that's that's what you're supposed to do, okay, that's how truth is served is when you demonstrate the inconsistency of Of what someone is saying and so I honestly I do not understand This this explosion of of infanto Lutheranism.

And I use that term specifically because I I have yet to see anything in any of this that Demonstrates the first bit of maturity because see if you're going to be mature If you're gonna be a Lutheran and you're going to attack Calvinism and you're mature.

Then you're actually going to represent Calvinism correctly and present compelling argumentation against what has to say. You're not going to act like these people act. I'm sorry. That's just all there is to it.

I cannot respect people who who act in in this fashion. It just makes no sense whatsoever. So You know the phone lines are over if you'd like to explain this I would like to understand it. What what is what is the source of this kind of of rabid?

Anti-Calvinism that does not even begin to try to accurate reform accurately represent what it was trying to was trying to respond to it. I don't understand it I really don't and I think what bothers me the most about is it is I've had such a higher view of The Lutherans with whom I have had dialogue that I am I'm shocked that I don't hear more of them.

And maybe I maybe they are if some would like to direct me to where these people are saying hey We do that is we agree with you that kind of stuff is Absurd we we stand against it. We we you know if you'd like to point me to that I'd like to see where these responses are because I For some reason no one has been referring me To that kind of that kind of information I just I don't see it, so if you'd like let me know where it is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and you know if you and again if Josh s is out there fact the matter is it's toll-free number and if he really You know would like to be able to back up saying that I was somehow whining About what Paul McCain said if you'd like to if you'd like to explain for example why it is that a discussion of John 6 would somehow be a Would involve Paul McCain taking his eyes off Jesus.

Why why can't we continue to look to Jesus while listening to what he taught? I'd like to hear how that works phone lines are open and There it is I It does the contrast to me was a little bit odd because right at the same time I get this again infantile type of a of a post Against me at the same time.

I'm getting from someone else links to the Muslims who are finally trying to respond to a few of the things that I've said in the rather lengthy blog series I've done in regarding to regards to Saiful and Azmi's material on well the big long quote of material on the subject of Textual criticism, and it just seems to me Such an odd thing that we have so much work to be doing in those areas, and then you've got this kind of silliness.

You know it just I I don't I don't know I This this argumentation though one last time because evidently someone doesn't understand it the argumentation that I have heard to shut down all discussion is.

For example, I saw it on Paul McCain. He quoted someone's discussion of the sovereignty of God and said there's nothing about Jesus in here. Well, you know what the sovereignty of God is behind everything in Jesus's life and ministry.

It's the sovereignty of God that made Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. Everything that that God has sovereignly decreed to do in this world is is tied up in the Incarnation and the cross and the resurrection and God's self-glorification.

By his redeeming a people in Christ Jesus. I mean there's no way to separate these things. But you don't have to pronounce the name Jesus in every other sentence. For you to be accurately representing the Word of God because the Word of God doesn't do that.

So I'm sorry shutting down any and all rational conversation. By demanding that you say the name Jesus every 14 or 15 seconds. It only demonstrates you don't don't have a theological or biblical leg to stand on.

That's that's what I just came begin to understand that when I see people saying well You know we speak different languages. We're Christa centric, and you're just based upon abstract view of God. I'm sorry, but that is absurd.

That is absurd on its face that why I don't understand how Christians can use that kind of horrific argumentation and Maybe I may again. Maybe it's just I'm maybe I'm just being absolutely silly and Thinking that.

You know in my mind. Maybe it's just because of my respect for for Luther. And my wreck and my and being silly and just transferring that off to others. But I expected that someone who would be a Lutheran and a theologically aware Lutheran Would have a higher standard of dialogue and discussion and representation and truth.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe there's absolutely no difference between these individuals and Dave Hunt and Their their dogged blind Commitment to tradition, maybe I'm I'm just naive. Maybe I just have had way too high of you.

And I need to adjust that and recognize there's a whole lot wider spectrum than I thought there was and and go from there. You know maybe that's that would help me to just dismiss all this stuff and go.

There's you know because I do dismiss that when I see someone just blindly repeating Dave Hunt stuff. You know whenever I see someone repeating the Spurgeon quote. You know what I'm talking about the the one that hunt sniped from from somebody else Samuel Fiske and Didn't check it out where where you quote this quote from Spurgeon say see he denied particular redemption.

He died limited atonement. It's actually from a sermon on limited atonement, and I would say the Christian doctrine of the atonement and and stuff like that. Whenever I see someone doing that okay immediate Credibility crash there's no Credibility left whatsoever in what that person has to say because they haven't checked their sources.

They're just repeating things okay fine. Maybe that's what I need to do here as soon as I see someone repeating these these canards these This silly stuff. I you know I don't know it's absolutely amazing so phone lines are open and If you actually You know I have a hard time thinking that if Luther lived today And he was saying the same things these people were saying that he wouldn't have.

That he wouldn't have picked up that phone have a hard time, but hey like I said the keyboard makes people brave the phone actually you have to reason and Goes two ways that way it's funny to complain about my not having comments when I have a Free phone number and at about two hours a week where everybody can call in yeah, okay there you go I'm the one hiding yeah already there there you go.

That's that's pretty mmm. That's pretty odd. I was looking through some some clips While we wait for these brave folks to pick up the phone. I I was looking through some some clips In my sound subdirectories, I was looking for a particular one couldn't find it, but I did find this.

I Was looking for something by Scott Hahn and I saw something on the Canon from Catholic answers from a couple years ago. So I fired up before we started the the pre feed and I listened This this fellow called in he's not a Catholic he had an excellent question was it was basically the same question That I had asked Jerry Maddox, and I haven't mentioned this for a long time so I I wish I had the.

Well, I don't think we do not have the sound. Well, I wish we did from the W easy a program that I did with Jerry Maddox after the debates at Boston College. Well, I wish we did. Because that was where I asked Jerry what has become known as the white question.

I actually heard a fellow call into a Catholic radio program and call it the white question. What it happened was we had done two debates at Boston College one on justification and one on the apocrypha and this was May.

Oh. No, no it couldn't have been May. Maybe it was April. It was it was I know it was 1993 and as I'm thinking now I Remember snow on the ground so may probably wouldn't be well that again is Boston. But may probably be anyways it was it was first half of 1993 Maddox and I did two debates this was the one that I mentioned in the book on Mary where we were doing a W easy a radio program and That was where I read the Marian prayer the one that I included the beginning of that book and I've included most of my discussions on on the subject of Mary and It is the Marian prayer that goes Oh mother of perpetual help Thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God's grants to us miserable sinners.

If this reasoning has made these so powerful so rich and so bountiful thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee come then to my help dearest mother for I recommend Myself to thee in thy hands.

I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants take me under thy protection and it is enough for me. For if thou protect me dear mother I fear nothing not from my sins and also three things here not from my sins because that would obtain for me the pardon of them.

Nor from the devils because thou are more powerful than all held together. Nor even from Jesus my judge himself because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased so sins Devils and Jesus those are three things this person's afraid of but one thing I fear that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably.

Call on thee is addressed to Mary of course obtained for me then the pardon of my sins love for Jesus final perseverance and Grace always to have recourse to thee. Oh mother of perpetual help now I had found this prayer in a booklet that had been stuck in a Seat in the chapel at the hospital where I was working as a chaplain and I had picked it up and I was reading it and I read this thing I was like at that time 1993 Mary was not the real focus of my studies Roman Catholicism.

I had been mainly debating issues about justification and Solo scriptura, and I think Luther would have agreed with most of what I had to say about that now I think about anyway, and so I I thought You know Knowing people like Jerry Matta ticks and and Carl Keating and and James Aiken at that time now.

It's Jimmy Aiken and Patrick Madrid. I Sort of thought that's That's got to be way off out in left field someplace. This can't be Representative of of Orthodox Roman Catholicism and So I Brought this with me To the radio program.

I'll never forget this some things in your in your memory Just stay very very fresh and I for some reason I remember exactly what the radio studio looked like. The window was behind me. So the the light was coming from behind me Jerry was across from me the host the Janine Graf was to my right.

There were all sorts of well sort of like what I've got right now a an arm holding this microphone in front of me there were like four or five of them frequently looks like like some sort of a Spider or something like that coming out one central area where the the microphones are and I Read this and I could tell that Janine Graf Was was taken aback by what I just read and so she turns to Jerry and there's this, you know how on radio dead air is bigger than than it is in real life and He looked at me across that table and I was expecting you know, I I tried to sort of go alright What would?

What would a Catholic answers type response to this be and I assumed that I was get the rolling of the eyes. Mr. White. Mr. White Why don't you? Represent things accurate. Why don't you present main lines of wide and you know, let's go look at What was said in Vatican to and so on so forth?

It's not what I got. A Geriatrics looked across that table. You gotta give geriatrics. So one thing he'll look you in the eye when he talks to you and He wasn't looking down he wasn't looking away and He looked right at me and said Mr. White I pray for the day when you would be able to pray that prayer with me now here was a guy who Only a few years earlier had been a doctoral student at Westminster Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia I think he was a BD.

At least that's what he told me. He was all but dissertation and fact sometime in Think it was January of The January no, it couldn't be January 91. Well at some point I was over the Catholic answers Offices when Jerry was still on staff because he left right around that period time he left very shortly after the debate that I had with him at the Catholic Community a city the Lord over in Tempe on the papacy that Scott Hahn got all mad at and he was all angry and he's one moderated it he was off staff very shortly after that and So sometime before then we were over in San Diego and he was still there at that time and Yeah, you know I just I Just expected it just took me aback.

He was he had told me at that time when I was the studios He was all participation. So I take him as were at that point. Anyways, here's a man who was who was a graduate Gordon Conwell Saying yes, not only do I pray that that was my first indication of just how deep this type of Marian piety Quote-unquote if we can use that terminology it means something different to me, but that kind of Marian piety was and I have used that in debates ever since then he has never once criticized me for so doing.

Because that is Very much representative of his belief. It was very much representative of John Paul the second's belief as well. I Came to I came to understand over time anyway, that was. That was the trip to Boston College, and I know that I seem to be waxing long here.

I Don't know if we have any break material set up. Oh good. There we go. Since we're writing are we gonna go a little bit late, too. Are we just gonna I'm just gonna have to listen to music since we got a little bit of late start, too.

But we I'll finish the only like 30 seconds late. No, we were we were over. We were over a minute late. Oh Okay. Well, we can go a minute long. Well, if someone ever for some reason buys this this CD so they can listen to the sounds of silence Where the brave and phanto-lutherans didn't call.

That's good. They they might want the entire 60 minutes. I want to be you don't want to be gypped of time. No, in fact, we want to make sure we give them the full time because you know eight seven seven seven five three three, three four one is a long number and It might take a little while to dial it.

So that's that's why we're gonna we're gonna go the whole way. Just make sure they have that opportunity Meanwhile in fact, maybe maybe they're just so fascinated By what I'm saying the story that we need to take a break so that during the break they can do that.

So why don't we take a break? I'll finish the story about Boston College and we'll be right back.

Try to save your soul from death. It's all Righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself and I some religious place? By weeping hard on your face.

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Ah.

That's interesting for the fellow just called. Unfortunately, you don't get to hear the Scott Hahn get upset. On that particular date because what happened since I mentioned since I mentioned it and I'm again I'm just assuming everybody, you know has been listening forever and that's silly we did a debate in December of 1990 Number 432 on the papacy the City of the Lord and this was at a in a Catholic context and it was moderated by Scott Hahn against Gerrymatics, this is the first time you got it.

You got to understand you got back up here and realize what was going on. For a number of years Catholic answers ran roughshod over individuals in debates. They were looking for pastors who would dare to say something about Roman Catholicism.

These guys were prepared. They were ready to go. Sadly, most pastors have not studied anything about church history and and their knowledge Roman Catholic theology is rarely from Roman Catholic documents and so I sadly got to listen to a number of radio programs and debates featuring gerrymatics and others where they just ran over these people and it was embarrassing and Catholic answers even put out a tract that said to hey when you hear somebody Out there.

And they they are Saying something about Roman Catholicism. Then what you need to do is you need to invite them to do a debate and you can contact Catholic answers and we will. We will debate them they don't put that tract out anymore.

And one of the reasons is I I very seriously believe because we have put them in a situation where they can't do that. And there are a number of topics. They don't want to they don't want to address. And so this was.

I had listened to both Han and Matt attack speaking about the papacy and presenting their materials. And so I was ready. I mean, I knew they're used Isaiah chapter 22. I had a rather full response to Isaiah chapter 22.

So you got to understand Scott Han was a little bit upset because he didn't get to say anything. He's just moderating the bait and Jerry Mattis is sitting there presenting all Scott Han stuff and I'm refuting that stuff and they had never had anybody do that.

They had never had anyone respond and say wait a minute. You just threw out Isaiah chapter 22 verse 22. The problem is you think that's connected Matt to chapter 16. But why haven't you ever mentioned to anyone in any of your talks?

That this passage is cited but it's cited in Revelation 3 7 on the lips of Jesus. He's the one with that key. It's not there's there's the difference between key and keys and there's all this stuff I started no one had ever done that and so by the end of this program Scott Han is not a happy camper.

And as soon as the debate was over. That's why you can't hear this as soon as the debate was over Scott Han comes up and Mattix and I are standing there people are starting to come forward the debate had gone very well for our side there have been Catholics getting up and walking out during this entire thing and the the the process the audience are all coming to talk to Jerry, okay, and Han looks at me and he says you blew it.

Because you brought up papal infallibility and that wasn't the topic of the debate as if you can. You know just come. I wasn't debating papal infallibility. I raised the issue to point out how high the Catholic view of the papacy is but that's not what I had been debating.

I've been debating the existence of papacy. He was wrong it's silly to say that I can't even mention that Rome has defined the Pope as being infallible as part of the presentation, but then. Then he turns to Jerry in front of all these Protestants his good bud Jerry his his Friend who who came into Rome with him and and evidently there was obviously already strains developing here Jerry going toward more traditional perspective, which he's gone all the way now to a set of aching this perspective, but He looks at Jerry in front of everybody says and you blew it.

Because you used the Bible as your only source of authority and you can't do that. And Turned around and stalked out of the room and never came back leaving Jerry alone in a sea of gleeful happy Protestants and Never came back never never came back unfortunately.

That's not videotaped. That's not audiotaped. I mean the debate was. But you know so that's what I was talking about that particular point in time, then we had another interesting encounter with Scott Hahn a month later when I debated Pacwa on justification and the mass in San Diego.

Those took place place afterwards. And that's where I challenged Scott Hahn standing outside the one largest Roman Catholic Churches in San Diego in El Cajon. I Challenged him in front of a group of at least 30 people to debate and that challenge has now stood for 15 years and We still stand ready to do that.

But Scott Hahn has offered a number of different reasons over the years. But the current one basically is he just doesn't do that now something told tells me that if RC Sproul or someone like that Said they would that might change, but that's the situation as it as it stands right now.

So that was the that was the background of that and that's why you know I'd certainly recommend you could you could listen to it. But you're not going to catch that portion where where Scott Hahn is you know?

Doing those things at the end, so I just thought you might want to be aware of that particular Fact so very quickly because we do have a phone call. I'll get to it in just a moment. Let me finish the story.

We were at Boston College and After the the apocrypha debate ended up being Really interesting in fact gerrymantics, and I had been worried that we would have to pass out no-dos during the apocrypha debate because let's face it you have to talk about all sorts of stuff and Cite this scholar against that scholar and We figured the justification debate would be far more interesting in reality the apocryphal debate ended up being very very interesting and rather divisive as far as that goes and At that debate my side George Bonneau was my host at that point he and I Were told by people from the radio station, or it was communicated to us in some way I forget who it was it told us that though We were supposed to be on I think the next Monday that I think this was Saturday So supposed to be Monday.