Is It a Sin To Emotionally Abuse Someone?

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01:26

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your host, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, is it a sin to emotionally abuse someone?

01:42

Now emotional abuse is one of those topics that's pretty much one you can never touch unless you're the person who is speaking in favor of someone who has been or is being emotionally abused.

01:54

You can never really talk about this in any other light, and so we wanted to take this opportunity before we really jump into the discussion to provide an extra warning for people just to say, hey, strap in, prepare yourselves, make sure that you've got your emotional support peacock beside you at the ready, ready to support your emotions as they might get abused in this episode.

02:19

Tim, why don't we just go ahead and jump right into the episode. If you don't have your peacock at the ready, just pause real quick, go and grab them, and then come back and we'll still be here.

02:30

So I'll wait a second. Okay, okay. Now Tim, what do you think?

02:39

What's the answer to this question? Is it a sin to emotionally abuse someone? Yeah, that's one of those questions that essentially

02:48

I really have no idea what we're even saying when we use those words, and so it's definitely a difficult question to answer because you're using words in such a way that garners a certain kind of sympathy.

02:59

So immediately when you say emotional abuse, we're trying to have a certain kind of reaction that treats all those kind of claims with the same level of seriousness that you might treat the kind of situation where a woman is essentially being beat every night by her husband with a chainsaw or something like that.

03:24

So when you're using that kind of word, essentially everyone's mind goes to the worst case scenario.

03:32

Right, we need to recoil. We need to recoil instantly. Not only do you recoil, but then whoever is making the claim to be abused, then the rules of the game are that you're supposed to basically believe them and not shame them and support them.

03:48

It's the victim status. They've got it. Right, so right when you say that you're being emotionally abused, then essentially the rules of the game are that everyone has to come along and take your side and not disagree with you in any way.

04:01

Basically, from emotional abuse you gain all the support and validation and advocacy and everything else all the way up until the worst case scenario of physical abuse, whatever that means that you can possibly imagine.

04:21

The problem is these words, they become infinitely plastic essentially.

04:27

The word abuse itself is a word that has such a broad range of meanings that it now has become basically a useless and worthless term.

04:40

But then when you add emotional abuse onto that, then you're also dealing with a broad range of spectrum of behavior that it's not necessarily intuitive what you're even talking about when you're using that kind of language.

04:54

And there's no settled, agreed -upon definition of what we're even talking about. So emotional abuse could constitute someone saying something that you didn't like, right?

05:05

Mm -hmm, yeah. Or misgendering someone, deadnaming someone. I'm sure people have accused us of being emotionally abusive on the podcast.

05:15

Probably most of our titles would fall under that. And our trigger warning would fall under the broader rubric of emotional abuse.

05:23

So the issue then is that you're using a word that pretty much most church— most of our big -name evangelical church leaders have been trained to basically fall in line and just respond to that word with the utmost seriousness and treat any claim to that word as being just something that they should probably report.

05:54

Pastors are mandatory reporters as it relates to that kind of thing in a lot of states. And under those definitions of mandatory reporter laws, it includes up until emotional abuse.

06:07

The problem is if you're dealing with a term like that, a term that really has lost its meaning, you're using words in such a way that it's unhelpful, so it's difficult to even know what we're talking about when we're using those kind of words.

06:19

So then if you're trying to answer the question, is it ever okay to emotionally abuse someone, well, I guess it just depends on what you're talking about.

06:26

So it seems like if what we're talking about is saying something mean to someone or saying something that someone doesn't like or that, quote -unquote, hurts their feelings, it seems to me that Jesus said plenty of mean things to people that they didn't like and that hurt their feelings.

06:43

He even, to the Pharisees, threatened violence against them in this life and the next.

06:52

So what do you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, this temple system is going down, you're going to be twice as a child of hell as those you're misleading.

07:07

So it's complicated, essentially. So you're trying to answer that question, it's complicated.

07:12

What are we talking about? What are we even saying? And I would think, my own perspective is we need to put a moratorium, essentially, on the use of the term abuse and just use terms that are clear, that define what we're talking about, because these are just words that don't, they've lost their meaning.

07:31

So if everything is abuse, nothing is abuse. And so the point, as I've made this point over the years, it's interesting because people, generally, they just get really, really mad at me.

07:42

Like, really, really mad at me. And when they get mad at me… I can't understand why. Well, the funny thing about it, though, is when they get mad at me and say all men are evil things against me,

07:52

I can't claim to be emotionally abused at that point. I mean, no one is going to take my side.

07:59

So it's almost like a religious claim that's being made.

08:09

When you use that, there's an expected response that you need to bow down and worship and serve.

08:14

If you don't give it, then you're the devil, literally. And any manner of violence can be threatened against you.

08:23

And it's appropriate, too, because you become the literal incarnation of Hitler if you question the meaning of words at that point.

08:30

But essentially, we just need to use different words. That's part of the point. We just need to use words that are clearer.

08:38

So part of a response to that is, is it ever a sin to emotionally abuse someone? Part of the response is, what are we even talking about?

08:45

What are we even saying? What constitutes that? What falls into that category?

08:51

Because there's a lot of things, it seems to me, that fall into that category, that I'm not going to adopt all the rules that people demand

09:01

I adopt, because it seems to me that there's examples in the Bible of doing that very thing.

09:07

But then there are things that might be included in that label that I would say are off -limits to the

09:17

Christian. And then there are things included in that label that aren't. So what are we saying?

09:23

Okay, okay. So how exactly, like if we were going to have that conversation, basically you're saying, hey, that term emotional abuse, really in our day and age, it's not a very helpful term because it doesn't really communicate much of anything.

09:42

What exactly... It's a demand. What it communicates is a demand that anyone who uses that expression be essentially believed and validated and affirmed.

09:56

And whatever response that they want to take to that perceived emotional abuse is right and justified and can't be criticized.

10:07

So it gives, like the individual who makes that... The only thing that is clear is that when an individual claims to be emotionally abused, you must take their side and you must agree with everything they're saying.

10:20

And not only that, agree with any step of action that they take in response to that.

10:26

So like if an individual claims to be emotionally abused, then there's a demand that you must support them in pursuing a divorce even to their spouse.

10:36

So you have to believe their interpretation of whatever situation they're in.

10:43

You have to validate them as a person and you have to allow them the permission to respond however they want to.

10:51

Short of probably violence, but... Yeah, like if someone came out and was like,

10:59

Hey, my pastor is emotionally abusing me, so I had to leave that church.

11:04

Right. No one would be allowed to come out and say, Well, hang on, whoa, whoa, whoa. What did he do?

11:10

Let's wait a second. Yeah, what happened? Right, right. So it's a demand. So that phrase becomes a demand that you must agree with me and support whatever

11:22

I need to do in order to remove myself from this toxic situation and all that.

11:29

So it's just... But then beyond that though, what are we even talking about, right? Like what happened?

11:35

But then you're not even allowed to ask that question, essentially. You're not even allowed to say what happened, right?

11:41

Right. Like what happened? So before I jump on your side and say, Yes, he's

11:47

Hitler and you're the Virgin Mary or something, right?

11:54

Go full Catholic, right? Before I have to basically just...

11:59

I can't even say, like, what are we saying? What does that mean, right? Right. And if you say that, it's like, you hateful bigot, you.

12:05

How dare you? And then I'm just like, you're re -abusing them by even asking the question. You're shaming the victim.

12:11

Right, right. Because you're asking them to explain what they mean. Haven't they been through enough, right?

12:18

And so it's just like... But then you still don't know what they're saying, right? So what are we saying?

12:24

And it could mean anything, right? Yeah. I mean, so it could mean like...

12:31

Actually the pastor was doing the right thing and you're just like a crybaby, right? That's shocking.

12:38

You're born with paper skin. Yeah. I mean, that could be the case. I mean, it could be that maybe the pastor did something that was wrong, but you're still being a crybaby, right?

12:49

Yeah. Or it could be that no, what he did was really, really wrong and disqualifying and you need to leave, right?

12:56

Right. Maybe. Really, really wrong and disqualifying, maybe you should stick it out. Or really, really wrong, really, really disqualifying it.

13:04

So long pattern of time, it's time to go, maybe. All those things are live options, but you're not even allowed to ask what we're talking about.

13:11

Right. So part of it is just the word abuse itself is unhelpful.

13:18

And then when you combine it with emotional abuse, then you have another animal there that's just added layers of confusion to everything that you're saying.

13:35

Meaning, it's not entirely clear to me that emotions can be abused at all.

13:44

Okay. What do you mean? Let me think about it. Like an emotion is like joy, right?

13:53

Mm -hmm. Sadness. Yeah, yeah. Depression. So when I say that you emotionally abused me, what am

14:01

I saying? Like that you abused my sad emotion? This is the moment to start bringing your emotional support peacock in close.

14:17

I mean, this is not the way emotions work, man. I mean, they don't work that way. You can't harm my emotions.

14:25

I emote. I respond. My emotions respond rightly or wrongly to your behavior.

14:34

And so it's not even true that my emotions are just these neutral things that can't be helped, right?

14:41

Mm -hmm. Meaning, you can't damage my emotions. My emotions work just fine.

14:48

You're not harming my emotions. You're not damaging my emotions. You're not doing anything to my emotions. What's actually happening when

14:55

I feel sad when you say something I dislike is that I've trained myself to have a kind of character that is going to respond to some kind of negative thing that I don't like, either in a way that's emotionally controlled or in a way that's emotionally out of control.

15:17

Meaning, I'm either going to respond emotionally appropriate to the offense or emotionally out of proportion to the offense.

15:27

And so it's not as if my emotions are off limits. And it's not as if they're even able to be damaged. They're functioning based on how

15:34

I'm thinking and how I act and how I've trained myself to respond to certain situations like that.

15:42

Partly, as a Christian, you're supposed to, like the Bible says, it's the glory of good sense makes one slow to anger.

15:52

And it's the glory of a man to overlook an offense. What that means is you should be training yourself to have the kind of character that good sense would make you slow to anger, meaning that any time someone says something you don't like, you don't give your emotions just a free pass to emote sadness and anger.

16:13

And then what you don't do is you say, you have to take some sort of responsibility for your emotions, too.

16:21

You have to say, it's the glory of a man to overlook an offense. Meaning, yeah, you said something rude, but I don't have to let myself be affected by that.

16:30

You're not in charge of my emotions, I'm in charge of my emotions. And I can train myself to just be reduced to a blubbering mess of tears any time anyone says something

16:40

I don't like, or I can train myself to have control over my emotions. And the more that you practice, the better you get.

16:46

But the issue is you're not harming them anyways. You're not abusing my emotions anyways. It's just a nonsense kind of way of speaking.

16:53

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So overall, you're saying that this term emotional abuse is essentially it's a demand, right?

17:10

In your mind and your understanding, is there any sort of category for emotional or verbal abuse in scripture that's a little more clear maybe than just it's a demand?

17:23

Well, I mean, there's just any number of things that you could describe as emotional abuse, and so you just have to take each one on a case -by -case basis.

17:32

So the Bible says, love is not irritable or rude, right? So being consistently rude to an individual over a long period of time, that could be considered emotional abuse, right?

17:50

Uh -huh, yeah. Yeah, I just think, just call it being rude. It would be clearer if you call it being rude, but let's just say that when the individual is using the term emotional abuse, what they mean is they're being rude over a long period of time, right?

18:06

Okay. Like, okay, well, that would be sinful, right? Does that make sense?

18:12

Yeah, it's not very loving. Yeah, it's not loving, it's sinful, right? So, you know, Luke, like you can look up abuse in the

18:19

Bible, and abuse is kind of like a modern word, and so meaning like it has like a modern therapeutic kind of use, but then it had a different use before.

18:29

So like when the ESV was translated or whatever, it had a certain use, and now it's like they really need to go back into the

18:38

ESV and change like the three times that word shows up. But Luke 628, bless those who curse you and pray for those who abuse you.

18:47

Well, like the word abuse there means to treat someone in a despicable manner or threaten or mistreat someone, okay?

18:56

Mm -hmm. So, I mean, there's some kind of category for treating someone in a despicable manner. Like treating them in a subhuman kind of manner, like treating them like a dog, right?

19:06

Yeah. Treating them like an animal, you know, and you can imagine how that could go. Like, you know, you're just worthless. You're trash.

19:12

You're, you know, like everyone in your life would be better off if you were just dead, something like that, right?

19:21

So treat someone in a despicable manner, and then like threatening them, you know, so there's like threats of violence there, or just treating someone poorly.

19:30

So, I mean, there's like a standard meaning of that. Most often, like, you know, like you have like with abuse, like you have like the physical kind of get beat up connotation, right?

19:43

Right. So, I mean, you might have like a physical get beat up connotation, which, you know, drive out a scoffer and strife will go out and quarreling and abuse will cease, right?

19:58

So, like that's probably talking about like loud shouting, yelling, you know, possibly coming to blows or something like that.

20:07

So, yeah, I mean, there's certainly those kind of categories of threatening and intimidating and, you know, demeaning someone, treating them like garbage or trash.

20:19

Like there's certainly things like that in the Bible that are clearly sinful for the most part, you know?

20:26

It kind of sounds like just this off the top of my head. I haven't, you know, studied this deeply or anything, but just hearing what you read, it kind of sounds like the words still have a pretty strong connotation of like physical response, doesn't it?

20:43

Like threats of violence kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, I think like the way that most people would generally,

20:51

I mean, the way that most people, like the way we used to think about that word abuse is it has a strong connection to actually like assault or something like that.

21:00

Right. But then like it's not like, you know, like there's like in the

21:08

Bible it's not like, like there's categories in the Bible like let a righteous man strike me or something like that.

21:15

And so like there's not just like, you know, any kind of physical corporal punishment, contact, disrespect towards a person.

21:25

You know, we're very sensitive as a society right now that everything is treated like as if it's just like someone trying to kill you, essentially.

21:35

Right. If it goes to blows, it's just like treated like that. But then, you know, like there's plenty of schoolyard bullies out there who are just trying to embarrass someone who are not necessarily trying to kill them, you know?

21:47

Right. And there is, I mean, you used to live in a kind of society that had a greater tolerance for that.

21:53

But then like related to the subject of bullying and everything else, like we're very kind of, we go to the most extreme example of all these things now and you don't have these kind of categories anymore.

22:06

But yeah, I think certainly most people would understand like that kind of language in general to be related to just someone maybe disrespecting someone and slapping them around, the kind of thing, if that makes sense.

22:23

Yeah, yeah. So I guess when it comes to interacting with someone who says that they've been abused, so it seems like that's a pretty difficult thing to navigate overall.

22:44

Yeah. I mean, honestly, it kind of seems like everyone and their mother is a victim of abuse these days.

22:51

Right. Especially like just go online, go on Twitter, and you'll see all sorts of claims of, you know,

22:59

I had to block so -and -so because they're just so toxic and abusive. But that's where it's so unhelpful.

23:06

It's like it's so unhelpful when you're talking that way because like what you're actually doing is you're actually making a word have no meaning anymore.

23:14

And then it's just like if you're a person who's coming along and saying, like maybe we should be more careful in what we're saying, then you're accused of trivializing like real abuse.

23:27

It's like, no, I'm trivializing the fake stuff, man. Right. I'm not trivializing the real stuff. I'm saying like there's a lot of stuff that doesn't belong in that category.

23:36

So can we use a different word, please? But anyways, continue. Sorry. Yeah, so no, I'm glad you brought that up because the question was essentially going to be, well, what do we do?

23:45

I mean, how do you even sort through like what is legitimate sin that's taking place between people versus what's just people being soft?

24:02

Yeah, well, I think the most helpful thing that you can do is just try to – and part of the purpose of this kind of podcast is to train people to basically when they hear that word to have it go in one ear and go out the other essentially and just to basically say, hey, when

24:19

I hear that word, I have no idea what that word means. Yeah. In the same way that when you're called a racist nowadays, what you have to do is you have to say,

24:29

I have no idea what that means. So can you please explain to me precisely what you're talking about?

24:36

Please, right? Now, if you ask that question and the person gets mad at you, then you need to just stare at them nonplussed and say, no, please explain to me what you're saying because I've been on Twitter before, right?

24:51

Right. Like I've been on Twitter before and literally – and that's just a major problem with contemporary discourse in general is that even like individuals in our circles probably they talk about when people disagree with them, they're attacking me, right?

25:08

It's just like, my goodness, grow up. Quit using that word. Quit using those kind of words.

25:13

They're not attacking you. They didn't hit you. They didn't throw anything at you. They literally just disagreed with you.

25:21

So stop it. Cut it out. Quit using those words. Every time

25:26

I hear someone say that, I just kind of roll my eyes and say, just grow up, right? You're not being attacked.

25:33

And then you get counted in the group of people that are attacking them. Well, I mean,

25:38

I want to do that even on times where I agree with them, like that the other person is in the wrong. It's just like stop talking that way.

25:45

I don't have any patience. Just nothing. It's meaningless what you're saying.

25:54

You're butchering the English language and it's not helping anyone in anything. So how are we supposed to – you cannot demand of me that I treat every use of the word abuse as if it's just the worst possible thing that could ever happen if you use it in so many different ways.

26:13

So what are we saying? And I think part of what we have to do is we have to, as a church culture, encourage people to use clearer terms.

26:23

And part of that is just related to a discussion about the sufficiency of the Bible. If the Bible is sufficient, then what you need to do is you need to use biblical language in order to describe what you're talking about.

26:36

And now that's related to physical abuse. Like, I don't know what that means. That's related to –

26:44

Tom Buck got himself in trouble because his wife shared that story with Karen Swallow Pryor, essentially, about how she put a cold

26:56

Coke on the back of his neck and he slapped her hand and told her, you know, stop it.

27:03

I mean, it sounded kind of like the kind of thing that a parent would do to a child. And after he's interacted with his children at that point a long time, it might be just that he had a little bit of a temper problem and you respond to your wife the same way you respond to a child or something.

27:18

But the point, though, is just to say that whatever that was, that's not him giving her a black eye every night, right?

27:28

But then the problem is that if you use those language of being abused, then people are going to go there with it, and what do you expect?

27:37

What do you expect to happen? And so we need to stop using that word as it relates to physical abuse.

27:46

We need to use different language, biblical language. We need to stop using it as it relates to verbal or emotional abuse.

27:52

We need to stop using that label as it relates to sexual abuse because it's the same thing that's happening in every single conceivable category.

28:00

It's a useless word. Stop using it. Use different words. If you're talking about sexual abuse, what are you talking about?

28:06

Are you talking about rape? What are you talking about? Are you talking about consensual sex amongst adults?

28:11

What are you saying, right? And if you would just use biblical categories, we could interact with them in a helpful way and know what we're talking about.

28:19

So when you're talking about physical abuse, what are you talking about? My husband is hitting me every night.

28:25

He hit me once. I was literally hovering over him, screaming at him and spitting in his face, and he pushed me away.

28:35

What are we saying? Use a different word so that I can know how to respond, right? What are we saying?

28:41

And the same thing with emotional abuse. I think it would do people well to just use language that makes sense, that's clear, that actually communicates what you're talking about in a way that is helpful.

28:56

And that's just not helpful language. So what are you saying? My husband yells at me every night.

29:03

My wife yells at me every night. And part of it is just that it's not really allowed to go that way.

29:09

But there's probably many husbands out there who are verbally abused by their wives. It's just no one cares, right?

29:15

Yeah, yeah. Literally no one cares. But the point, though, is just to say that this isn't just a problem.

29:22

This is a problem that both genders are committing in different ways. But then what is happening, right?

29:30

And what are reasonable expectations about how it should be handled? So once a year you get in a bad fight and your husband or wife starts screaming at you, what are we saying, right?

29:46

What are we talking about? Well, at that point, it's time to pack up the bags and leave.

29:53

Well, I mean, that's the thing, though. I mean, you are living in a society right now that basically hates marriage and hates any notion of authority in marriage.

30:01

And so what's happened is that this word abuse has been a tool that's been used to great effect to give the enemies of God all the permission they need to destroy his institution of marriage and the family.

30:18

And so once that label sticks, then there's nothing. Then everyone, there's a demand.

30:25

And you can tell the guys who just are following the cultural, the zeitgeist orders at this point, because right when they hear that word, they're just like circus monkeys, man.

30:36

They come out and they march just like they're expected to march. Right, they bow down to it. Yeah, they do.

30:42

And they'll come out and it's just like, oh, when they hear that word, it's just like, upmost seriousness,

30:49

I want to make a public statement that I'm against abuse in all forms.

30:55

And it's just like, but what are we talking about, man? What are we even saying? What are we talking about first?

31:02

Before I make my public statement that all abuse in every form is always wrong and there's no justification for it and it's toxic and hateful and it's massive patriarchy and all that, what are we saying first?

31:14

But yeah, what we should do is we should ban those words. Thoughtful Christians should basically just say,

31:22

I don't know what that means, you explain it to me in different terms, what we're talking about with specifics.

31:28

Before you get any sympathy from me, anything from me,

31:33

I want to know what you're saying first. Okay? Because I don't know what that word means. Just in the same way that individuals have done with racism now, there's been a lot of guys out there who, when they hear the word racism, they basically say, all right, be specific.

31:52

So we need to do that and then we need to ask, what are we saying? The follow -up is, what are we saying?

31:58

And use biblical language and then let's go with the biblical language at that point. What are we saying? Right.

32:05

Yeah, it does seem like it is pretty similar to the other names that kind of get thrown around these days.

32:15

Racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe. I mean, that's just the number one strategy of any progressive person ever, step one is to just call you a homophobe or a racist or transphobic or whatever.

32:37

You hate woman, hater, whatever. I remember even just a year ago, really, some of those words were kind of like, oh, someone called me that.

32:51

Right. That's kind of hurtful. This feels like, maybe in the back of my mind, I'm even like, man,

32:57

I'm getting abused right now by these people. But now it's just like, yeah,

33:05

I literally don't care. Yeah. I mean, the words have no meaning whatsoever.

33:11

So it makes sense what you're saying when you're talking about abuse.

33:17

I don't necessarily think people think this way, but I think at this point, we probably should.

33:23

No, they don't. They don't yet. But they should. We should view. Yeah, we should have years ago.

33:30

Right. This is like, I mean, this has been going on for years and no one's saying it. Right. I don't know anyone who's saying,

33:38

I mean, I'm not copying some blog post I heard somewhere. This is just that word that has no meaning that I'm waiting for all the big name evangelical leaders to come on and basically wake up to the game that's being run on them.

33:54

And it's just like, this word means nothing anymore. In any of its iterations, what are we talking about?

34:01

Sexual abuse? I don't know what we're talking about. You're talking about emotional abuse? I don't know what we're talking about. You're talking about physical abuse?

34:07

I still don't know what we're talking about. What are we saying? But it is like, I remember years ago,

34:12

Todd Pruitt from Mortification Spin, he wrote some article that was critical of some of the pre -woke stuff, like the proto -woke stuff.

34:22

And all the predictable fellows at the time called him a racist. And he was like, he just rolled over and deleted his article.

34:30

Oh, really? He deleted his article. And he's like, I will not subject my family to this gross word.

34:38

And I just deleted his article. And it's just like, he is so afraid of that word.

34:44

But now, people have just woken up. They're woke. They're awake.

34:51

They're awake. The game is actually being played. And I mean, now it's just like, man, whatever.

34:58

Whatever. Use a different word if you want me to pay attention. But we need to do that with abuse, for sure, in all of its forms.

35:05

What are we talking about? I'm not going to pretend that whenever that word is used, that we are talking about the kind of situation, like the most extreme situation imaginable where a husband is essentially mercilessly beating his wife.

35:27

Yeah, or throwing things at her head, or attempting to strangle her in her sleep or something.

35:33

Come on, what are we saying first? And because the spectrum is so wide, then there's no one -size -fits -all response to what we're even saying at that point.

35:46

There are plenty of situations where a person can claim to be emotionally abused where you need to look at them and say, grow up.

35:55

Or stop being such a horrible person. Really, you're a horrible person and you literally berate your spouse every day and disrespect them and defy them in the moment.

36:13

After five months of it, they lose their temper and raise their voice and tell you to stop, and you're calling it abuse.

36:21

So what are we talking about? That's not to say that there isn't a real category for an individual that is going to really just treat their spouse or a loved one like garbage and like they're trash and like they're just a toilet that's only good for solid waste or something.

36:47

There are those kinds of situations, but let's use other words to describe them and then we can know what we're talking about and how to respond.

36:55

Yeah. I think it goes without saying, but probably some people are going to hear this conversation and say, okay, well, they just don't care about abuse victims or whatever.

37:12

I think it's been pretty clear, but I'll ask you just for the sake of those people listening.

37:20

I don't think what you're saying is, all right, that means this never happens and don't even worry yourself.

37:30

When you're saying, hey, we need to let those terms go in one ear and out the other, what you're not saying is, hey, don't just ignore what's going on and just not ask any questions about it.

37:45

You're more just saying it's probably time to just stop taking those terms themselves so seriously and just try and find better descriptors.

37:59

Yeah, I think if someone is like, if you're trying to ask, do

38:04

I care about abuse victims? It's like, well, I care about everyone, but I don't know what the word abuse victim means.

38:13

Wait, hang on, Tim. Are you saying you care about abusers? I care about abuse, you know, wonder of wonders, big shock.

38:22

I care about abusers, too. You're not allowed to do that, Tim. You can only care about the victim.

38:28

No, I care about abusers. But the thing is, I don't even know what the word means.

38:34

If someone is saying that, I want to ask questions and get them to be specific. But there's not like, what we're trained to do is whenever you hear that word, basically you just go call the cops immediately and then like, hey, do we need to separate you from your spouse or something like that?

38:55

It's like, wait a minute, what are we talking about? Can we just ask, can we ask what we're saying first? And I've been in enough counseling situations where that kind of word is being used.

39:07

And what the lady meant was literally that as she's yelling at her husband, her husband looked at her with a facial expression that was somewhat mean looking.

39:25

Abuse. Right, I mean, that's what they were talking about. And it's just like,

39:32

I'm sitting there, I mean, I can just remember, there's multiple scenarios like this, but there's one in particular that I'm thinking about where the lady is building it up, she's in tears and her husband is so mean to her.

39:52

And I'm sitting there saying, what did he do? What did he do? And she's looking at me and she's saying, as she was screaming at him, he looked at her and he's just like, grits his teeth for a minute and then walked off.

40:10

And it's like, that's it. Abuse. It's like, that was it. You know, you were, yes, yeah, yes.

40:15

I mean, you don't know the way he looked at me. You're talking about a look though. Yes. And it's like, and you were screaming at him.

40:22

Yes. You know, it's like, what is he supposed to do? What is he supposed to do? And it was a look just one time or like a bunch of times and like he was shaking his fist or something at you?

40:34

No. No, just the one time. Just the one time, you know, and it's like. Abuse.

40:42

You know, it's like, he's bigger than me and he's scary and he's, it's like, but you're screaming, you're screaming, has he ever hit you?

40:50

No, he's never hit you. He's never shoved you. He's never even yelled at you. Like the guy never even yelled at her.

40:56

In his life. But she's saying he's emotionally abusing him because he, like, after her yelling at him for 10 minutes straight, got a mean look on his face.

41:07

You know, it's that kind of thing. And it's just like, I don't know what to do there. But whatever that is, like, no, you don't have permission to divorce him.

41:15

I'm sorry. You know, you don't, like, no, we're not. And she's going, dang it.

41:22

I mean, it's just like, I don't know what to do. You know, I'm sorry. I, like, why are you yelling at him?

41:30

You know, like, it seems like you're more out of control than him. You know, how dare you? You know, but like, you know, and that's not what's happening in every case, obviously, but you do have to ask those kinds of questions and you can't, you have to figure out what are we saying.

41:43

And so like for the individuals though who like, yeah, I mean, there's like, man, there's like nothing.

41:51

There's little that's more, you know, horrible in life than having a loved one who has a temper problem and who takes that temper problem out on you on a regular basis.

42:04

And, you know, like, that's awful. That's awful.

42:09

Now, like, how do you respond to that temper problem? Depends on, like, what we're saying, right?

42:16

Like, what are we talking about? How does the temper manifest itself? What are we talking about? And there's, you know, one of the things that's amazing is that 1

42:23

Peter 3 tells wives to be subject to their husbands, even if some do not obey. And when

42:29

I'm over without a word is they observe your chase and respectful conduct. And then, you know, Peter goes on to say, even if Sarah obeyed

42:36

Abraham, calling him Lord, and you are her daughters if you do good and do not fear anything that's frightening.

42:42

Meaning, like, there are, like, there isn't some biblical command, essentially, to say that anything that's unpleasant or uncomfortable in the course of marriage is, like, that might even be slightly scary, like, is if so fast evidence that you should divorce.

43:01

Like, it just doesn't go there. But at the same time, I mean, you look at those kinds, like, there are situations that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemies.

43:08

And, like, you know, the spouse, like, a husband, a wife, spouse who has a temper problem that's persistent and out of control and just regular feature of life where it just goes, you know, irrational.

43:21

I mean, I can tell you, like, you know, equal times where it's the woman and it's the man, you know, like, it's just, there's no, like, respective gender, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

43:31

And I sympathize with them, and I, you know, my heart goes out to them, you know, but then what are we saying, you know, when we're talking about these kind of things, and what is the biblical response?

43:41

And it isn't just that anytime anything unpleasant happens, you know, it's time to leave.

43:49

I mean, it's for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, till death do us part. There's a lot that goes into that, and it doesn't seem to me that we have simple answers to these questions, that anytime you hear that word, it's just, you know, blank check to remove yourself from the toxicity, but there are situations that I don't envy and wish upon anyone for sure.

44:12

And some of which are just, you know, you know, not just the verbal kind of stuff, too, that are pretty awful.

44:22

So what should the response be? Say, all right, say, you know, you're talking to someone, you're counseling someone, whatever, and you're asking that, they're saying, hey,

44:32

I'm being emotionally abused, verbally abused, whatever you want to call it, and you're asking them the questions, hey, what do you mean?

44:40

You know, be more specific, like, what specifically is happening? And they describe a situation to you that's not just like the, you know, he made that face at me that one time, and I just knew if I, you know, did anything more to push him than they were going to, you know.

44:58

The reason why she did that was because her, you know, growing up her dad was physically violent towards her mom, and she was projecting, essentially.

45:10

Like, and so she, like her dad, she married someone that looked like her dad a little bit, but he never went there with it, and so she's just, like that's what her mom would do, get her dad all riled up, and then he'd punch her, you know.

45:22

Yeah. And so she'd get him all riled up, and he never went there with it, but she's just deathly afraid.

45:29

Expecting it. She's living out her childhood, you know, like in that way. But, like, whatever is happening, it's not, like, it's not real, you know.

45:37

You know what I mean? Like, it's in her brain. It's not like that. Like, she's not being abused. Like, she's just, like, reliving childhood, you know.

45:46

Mm -hmm. So say that you're talking to the person who's not in that situation, but the person who, it does actually seem like there's some legitimate, you know, hey, it sounds like whoever you're interacting with is, at the very least, you know, dealing with, like, extreme anger issues, and they're taking it out on you in some form.

46:12

What exactly should the counsel be that you give to that person specifically who's dealing with a much more serious situation than just they made a face at me?

46:25

Yeah, well, let me, I want to talk about a man in that situation just so that I can say whatever I want to say. Okay.

46:31

Okay. And, like, no one, like, will get mad at me here, you know. So, but,

46:37

I mean, I've known dozens of men in that scenario.

46:45

Okay. Who are married to women who literally scream and holler at them when they don't get their way.

46:53

And will call them names, and will berate them, and will insult them, and will lose their mind, will yell at them in front of their kids, like, will literally just even break stuff and throw stuff.

47:08

Okay? Okay. All right. So I know dozens and dozens of guys, and you know what?

47:14

I've never, like, counseled them to divorce their wife. Like, so,

47:20

I mean, I haven't. So, I mean, like, I think. Well, you can't divorce your wife if you're the man in that situation.

47:28

Now, if we reversed everything. No, we're not going to reverse everything. The first step.

47:34

I don't want to talk about that one. I want to talk about this one. All right, all right. Because, like, people lose their mind, you can't hear it.

47:40

But it's just like, no, I mean, I've been in plenty of situations like that, where I've known guys who have been in that kind of scenario.

47:49

And, you know, what do you do? You say, hey, like, has it ever, like, has she ever hit you actually?

47:58

No, you know, she just screams at me, hollers at me, disrespects me, demeans me, insults me, and everything else.

48:08

And it's like, I mean, I do think, like, yeah, do not fear anything that's frightening, right?

48:15

Okay. You do not fear anything that's frightening. I think all that stuff would go into that kind of category, and I think that you need to, like, pray for them, and you need to, like, rebuke them, you know?

48:26

I think you need to have, like, a quick statement that you're going to say. Don't get into, like, a verbal, like, don't get caught in the whirlwind at that point.

48:33

You just look at them, and you might say, like, the wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness that God requires. Maybe you can get that out, you know?

48:41

And at that point, you might want to just remove yourself from the situation, right? Mm -hmm. And if they refuse to let you remove themself from the situation, you pull out your phone, you say,

48:50

I'm going to call the police if you don't get out of my way. Mm -hmm. That's how this is going to work. You know,

48:56

I have no tolerance for this. Like, you can yell all day long, you can yell if you want, but, like, yell by yourself, break stuff, do whatever you're going to do, but I'm going to leave, and I'm, like, if, like,

49:11

I'm going to leave, and you can yell, and if you refuse to let me, I'm going to call the police, and we're going to get a police report about it, is what we're going to do.

49:20

And if they won't take that, then you say, and, like, and then, like, if you're a Christian, I think, like, you say, you need to repent of this, like, but I'm not talking to you anymore, you know, and I'm not going to ignore it until you repent.

49:34

If you don't repent, I'm going to tell the pastors, right? Mm -hmm. And that's what you need to do.

49:40

So, but none of that involves, like, you know, I'm abused, you know?

49:46

You know what I'm saying? Like, that's a clear response. Like, you don't get sucked into it.

49:52

You say, you know, the wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness that God requires, right?

49:59

Mm -hmm. Something quick, some Bible verse, like, leave, they won't let you, call the cops, you know?

50:06

Yeah, kind of like last week, you know, one of the things we said is, it seems like, you know, obviously, victim status is the, you know, the noblest calling anyone can ever respond to, and you get a lot, there's a lot to gain from being a victim in our society.

50:29

And one of the things we said, well, I say last week, actually.

50:36

Yeah, yeah, it was last week. One of the things we were saying was, hey, you don't need to pursue being a victim like it's something to be desired, especially if you're a man.

50:50

Like, that's kind of a sissy thing to be pursuing and desiring in your inmost being.

50:57

And it seems like this is sort of an extension of that, you know, like, hey, okay, so your spouse is someone who's verbally berating you, out of control, whatever, don't roll over and respond with the woe is me sort of attitude.

51:20

Just understand that the Bible speaks to these issues, so lean on the

51:26

Bible, repeat the Bible out loud as a response to people because it's living and active and sharper than any two -edged sword, you know, and it's sufficient for all things.

51:39

So do that, and then, you know, if you have to involve a third party just because there's no other way to mediate anything, then you have to do that.

51:53

Don't start acting like you're a victim. So that scenario assumes that all that is largely unprovoked, okay?

52:07

Right. But then, I do think there's other questions that you should ask, too.

52:14

To help you to regain some kind of balance, okay? So most people in those kind of scenarios, like the psychological way of doing it is basically just to say that once a person yells at you or something, like loses their temper at you, it's like, you know, the classic abuse literature basically encourages people to realize that that's not your fault and, you know, you're not doing this and they're going to make you think that you're causing it and everything else and then, like, you're going to take that upon yourself and, you know, dare to ask yourself, am

52:49

I contributing to this in any way? And I would just say that that's not helpful either, you know?

52:54

So, like, the first scenario I described where the lady was just trying to – I mean, she was like a little mousy woman and he was a huge man and she's just, like, yapping at him like a chihuahua or something like that, you know?

53:06

And then, like, he looks at her with a disgruntled look on his face, like, and she's just trying to stir him up and trying to stir him up and trying to get him mad, you know?

53:16

And it's just, like, whatever's happening in that scenario is not, like – nothing's happening there, you know?

53:23

But, like, there's plenty of people who, like, really are – like, have anger in different ways, okay?

53:29

So anger manifests itself in different ways and it's helpful for people to, like, understand all the ways in which anger manifests itself.

53:38

So anger is essentially I want what I want when I want it and it can manifest itself in, like, that explosive anger and it can manifest itself in, like, quiet anger and cold anger and brooding anger and bitterness, right?

53:51

So the Bible says let all bitterness – right? Bitterness is quiet and then wrath is loud, right?

53:58

And anger and clamor and then slander is often quiet be put away from you along with all malice, right?

54:05

Malice can be quiet or loud, right? Like, it's – so, like, there's, like, bitterness – like, there's quiet anger and there's loud anger and, like, a lot of times, like, you know, you can have a situation where – like,

54:17

I'm not – like, as a person, like, my temperament is not – like, I'm not a loud, angry kind of person.

54:23

Like, no one who knows me would think, like, I'm a loud, angry kind of person. Like, I'm just –

54:29

I'm not characterized that way. But, you know, if there's types of anger that I gravitate towards it's more the quiet types of anger that I gravitate towards.

54:40

But then, like, you know, the humble person is just going to basically say, if the Lord accounts iniquities, who can stand?

54:46

And there might be plenty of ways that you're provoking. Like, you're just poking a bear and poking a bear and poking a bear until finally the bear explodes.

54:53

And then, like, then you think to yourself, oh, well, now all my poking is, like, justified because you're just that same old person who just blows up, right?

55:02

It's like, but you were pushing that guy, you know, or that girl. You were pushing them and you're pushing them and you're pushing them and you're pushing them.

55:08

It's like an assembling block. Yeah, and, like, so it's not entirely clear, like, what is even happening in these scenarios.

55:16

Like, there's two people living in a house and both of whom are sinners and sin can manifest itself in many different ways.

55:23

And I remember growing up that, I mean, I used to pride myself in my, like, ability to never, like, yell, right?

55:30

But I was full of bitterness and I was full of anger. It just took different forms. And the same thing,

55:37

I mean, like, there's, like, the cold shoulder is just as destructive to a marriage as the whirlwind, right?

55:44

Like, it really is. Like, you know, so, like, what kind of anger are you showing? You know, are you showing the cold shoulder?

55:50

Are you showing the bitterness? Are you showing the, like, what are we talking about? You know, and so, like, that doesn't mean that, like, you know, well, there's been plenty of bitter, cold shoulder person who has ruined their marriage too, right?

56:09

Yeah. Like, and so, you know, and I'm saying that as a person who doesn't struggle with, like, the loud stuff.

56:16

I'm saying that as a person who struggles with the quiet stuff. And I mean, that can destroy a marriage, like, just like the loud stuff can.

56:23

So, like, the issue is, like, in these scenarios, like, what you want is you want repentance. Like, that's what you want.

56:28

You want repentance. And, like, what you want is a restored relationship. And if it's just like, you know, like, thank

56:35

God I'm not like that person over there with their loud anger kind of thing. Like, there's something really weird happening.

56:41

Like, do you not see your own heart at all? Right? So, now, you don't have to go, you know, the victim route where you're like, like, man, like, you know, it's all my fault.

56:51

If I would just be perfect, they wouldn't yell at me and hit me every week, you know, kind of thing. It's like, no, like, if they're hitting you, like, we're totally talking about a different category of thing here.

57:01

And that's never, I mean, you know, like, that is never even remotely justified, you know, unless you're talking about, like, some sort of crazy situation that I've never been in where, you know, you're sitting there literally berating and insulting and, you know, screaming and hollering at someone, you know, for hours and hours every day of their life, and at some point they lose it.

57:30

Like, my goodness, like, that wasn't justified, but it wasn't what you're saying either, right? So, but the point there is just to say in those scenarios, like,

57:39

I do think you have to do some kind of reasonable inventory. Like, am I provoking this person to wrath?

57:47

Am I pushing them and pushing them and pushing them? Like, what kind of, like, without taking full responsibility for the reaction, you can say, am

57:58

I provoking in any way that, like, a reasonable person looking on the outside would say, like, what are you doing, you know?

58:05

And so, but I think what you have to do, though, is if it is going to that, like, yelling and screaming and destructive loud stuff,

58:12

I mean, I do think, you know, you need to repent of this. I'm going to leave.

58:19

I'm going to come back, and I want to be reconciled. If you refuse to be reconciled, I'm going to get someone involved, you know?

58:25

Yeah, yeah, there is something to be said about, you know, as the person who thinks that they're experiencing some sort of, you know, verbal berating constantly all the time or whatever, or maybe it's just one really big time or something, there is something to be said about humbling yourself enough to examine your own actions and your own desires and motivations and say, hey, have

58:55

I contributed to this situation? Basically, just pulling the plank out of your own eye.

59:03

So you can see clearly to remove. Right, right. That's very different than, like, you know, I'm, you know, could it be that I burnt the toast, and that's why they hit me again?

59:14

Sure. You know, like, that's, like, there's some kind of, you know, honey, if you just cook better,

59:20

I wouldn't hit you so much, you know? It's like, that's ridiculous, man. Like, that's stupid. Like, you know, and so, like, that's not what

59:27

I'm saying, but there is a, like, yeah, maybe if I didn't yell at him for four hours, he wouldn't have yelled at me back, you know?

59:33

Yeah, yeah, he wouldn't have made the face. Yeah, so, and, like, but what you have to do is you have to figure out what scenario you're in, right?

59:41

What scenario we're in first, and so, like, what's happening, though, is that whenever any individual claims to be in that scenario, you think of the worst possible scenario, and if you don't, like, you don't immediately go there, you're, like, the worst person imaginable, and it just, it has to stop.

59:58

What are we talking about? Like, what are we saying with these words? Now, another question that I did want to ask you is, do you think that there's ever times that God is actually honored when you emotionally abuse someone?

01:00:16

Sure. Yeah, all right, next question. Let's not explain that one at all.

01:00:25

All right, explain a little bit. You whitewash tombs, you know, you brood of vipers, like, you know,

01:00:30

I mean, isn't that, like, dehumanizing them? Yeah, he's calling them animals. Like, you know, isn't he treating them like animals?

01:00:38

You know, like, false prophets are like brute beasts, you know, made to be caught and destroyed. Like, isn't that threats of violence and, you know, everything else?

01:00:47

And, like, you know, Lord, break the teeth of the wicked. You have imprecatory prayers, like, at that point.

01:00:53

And so, sure, I mean, I think there's… Yeah, the Bible calls false teachers a lot of really mean names.

01:00:59

Really, yeah, I can't… I mean, it is pretty funny, you know, because it's like… One of the funniest scenarios is where Jesus… Just read the

01:01:08

Sermon on the Mount and, like, notice, like, how… Ike's writing the Sermon on the Mount, and he's literally talking to these people, like the

01:01:15

Pharisees who are standing there, you know, and, like, the Pharisees bind heavy burdens that, you know, they refuse to bear, you know, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you know, right there, you know, front row.

01:01:28

You will never enter the kingdom of heaven. You know, and there are times when he's doing that, you know, and, like, the lawyers are like, hey,

01:01:34

Jesus, you know, when you talk about the Pharisees that way, you're condemning us too. And he goes, oh, well, woe to you lawyers.

01:01:41

He doesn't deter them, you know. Oh, thanks for the reminder. Thank you, guys. So, but,

01:01:47

I mean, it's just, like, I think there's a place for strong words and there's a place for, like, you know, generalizations, even, you know, cretins, lazy evil beasts and gluttons, you know, this testimony is true.

01:02:04

Like, there's a place for that kind of thing. Didn't John Calvin call people donkeys?

01:02:12

I imagine he did. I know that Luther frequently called people monkeys, you know, like he would say that their exegesis was, like, monkey -like, you know.

01:02:25

And I'm sure that he called, I'm sure that you may be thinking of Luther. Luther called people the different word for donkey quite frequently, if that's what you're referring to.

01:02:35

But he had some pretty colorful invective, for sure. But, no,

01:02:40

I think that there are places, like, you know, there are places for, like,

01:02:51

Strong language. Strong language and even, like, even, you know, pejoratives.

01:02:58

Like, there are places for, like, stop behaving so wickedly, you know.

01:03:05

You know, like, there are, you know, things within that, within that broader definition, for sure, that there are times and places for.

01:03:18

Yeah, your father is Satan. You have your father the devil, and he was a murderer from the very beginning.

01:03:26

Rogue ways, casting up the foam of your own shame. Yeah, yeah. They get pretty creative with some of them.

01:03:32

Yeah, I mean, don't read some of that stuff on Ezekiel, you know. You hoard after the

01:03:37

Babylonians, lusted after, you know, all that. So, are you saying that there's times where we should actually be called, like, we.

01:03:46

Okay, so I get it. The Bible says those things, you know. All right, that's God, that's the apostles, that's the prophets, you know.

01:03:52

That's Jesus himself. But are you saying that we are supposed to be saying those things as well?

01:03:58

Well, that's probably one of my, you know, big frustrations with much of our current evangelical leaders who are even supposed to be on the good side of things at times, where they don't treat the issues as seriously as what they should.

01:04:15

And so, like, in the name of charity. You know, I'm just thinking of guys like Tom Askell, you know, the way that he interacts with fellow

01:04:22

SBC guys at times. It's just like, it's just like, they're all wonderful brothers as they.

01:04:27

Yeah, they're brothers. They're wonderful brothers as they bring these horrible, damnable doctrines into the SBC, you know.

01:04:33

And it's just like, these doctrines are the doctrines of demons. They're, you know, damnable doctrines, but then they're good brothers.

01:04:40

You know, it's just like, well, wait a minute. Yeah, wait, hang on. So, either you're not, you know, addressing the scenario correctly or you're misunderstanding the scenario and the doctrines are fine.

01:04:55

Yeah, I mean, but what's happened, though, is, like, I think with many of our leaders who are trying to be more charitable, like, universally, it's like, if the demand is you're universally charitable, like, if that's the demand, the problem, though, is that, like, what happens is, like, if you, if there's this demand that you have to validate the false teacher, like, then, like, you'll forgive people for listening to them, right?

01:05:18

Yeah. Like, you'll forgive, like, and so there has to be some kind of place for calling them what they are, like, what they are, you know?

01:05:27

And it's just like, you know, and it does no good to, like, rebuke disembodied error at that point.

01:05:34

Like, you have to, like, say, like, there are peddlers of it, you know, and these are wolves devouring the sheep.

01:05:40

And if, like, you know, if it was, like, if you think about the metaphor, like, if they were literally killing people, right?

01:05:52

Mm -hmm. And the person they killed was, like, your church member, like, and they literally killed them and ate them.

01:05:59

Like, it would do no good for you at that point just to say, well, this is a wonderful brother, you know, who's confused.

01:06:06

It's just like, no, man, like, you gotta protect your people, you know? Right, right. And that's what's happened with a lot of the evangelical world right now is that we don't have a category for calling, like, wolves, wolves.

01:06:20

And then what happens is, like, they keep on consuming everyone. So it's just, and it's just like you just talk about, you know, critical theory is a problem, you know, as you invite all the critical theory guys to your conference.

01:06:32

It's just like, well, what are we doing, you know? Right. What are we doing? What are you saying, you know? So, like, maybe if it's that serious, if this is the issue of our time, then quit inviting them.

01:06:44

Like, quit, like, get them out of there, you know? Like, and call them what they are, you know, until they repent.

01:06:51

Right. Then restore them, you know, but actually call them to repentance. And, like, that's the thing that we're refusing to do.

01:06:57

And what we do is we just give them, you know, we invite them to speak, keep on considering them experts, invite them to all the conference.

01:07:05

They keep on deceiving everyone, and it's just like, well, what do you think is gonna happen, you know? Because you don't have a place for saying you brood of vipers.

01:07:11

You are of your father the devil, right? Right. And that's what needs to happen. You need to say you're of your father the devil, and you're doing his will.

01:07:20

And that would make things very clear, you know? So, no, they can repent of that, you know, but they're not gonna repent if you don't call them to repent.

01:07:27

You need to repent, and I'm gonna treat you like an unrepentant wolf until you change. And then if you repent,

01:07:33

I'm gonna praise the Lord, you know, and you can be restored, and we can be brothers again. But we're not gonna be brothers as you're peddling the false teaching.

01:07:39

Right. And you're doing that because that's the loving thing to do. It's the loving thing for them and for the people they're deceiving, but mostly for the people they're deceiving, you know?

01:07:48

Right. You know, it's interesting. I remember when I was writing, I wrote a paper on why we should avoid singing

01:07:59

Hillsong's music. And in my paper, I mean, I had to have a whole section that basically explained why

01:08:07

Hillsong Church is not actually a church dedicated to worshiping

01:08:13

God and serving Him, but is instead, you know, a cult, basically. And one of the warnings that I got from a few different people was, hey, you know, you're throwing out some pretty big accusations.

01:08:27

You know, you're calling them wolf. I just basically took a bunch of biblical, you know, names for false teachers, and then called them those things all throughout the paper, you know?

01:08:38

I made a point to do it often, you know? And some of the critiques

01:08:44

I got were, hey, just, you know, be really careful. These are really heavy claims that you're making about them.

01:08:50

And I think they're right. They are big and heavy claims that we shouldn't just throw around willy -nilly all the time.

01:08:57

Just any time anyone has a single doctrine, you know, that we disagree with, depending on what that doctrine is,

01:09:04

I don't think the first resort should always be to, you know, refer to them as wolves and false teachers.

01:09:11

But at the same time, I mean, I think we should— I never got any warnings about being careful about who

01:09:20

I called my brother in Christ, especially when it came to teachers. But I think we should be just as careful about who we're calling that.

01:09:32

Right. I mean, that's what you're going to find in the epistles of John. Like, if you greet the false teacher and provide him hospitality, you're taking part of his evil deeds.

01:09:41

Right. But the thing is, it does no good to hypothetically admit the possibility that there are false teachers in the church.

01:09:51

If you can't name any, then forgive me if I don't believe that you actually believe that they're real or they're a significant threat.

01:09:57

But then as you read through the New Testament, what you're going to see over and over again is, like, that's the job of the shepherd is to protect the sheep from the wolves.

01:10:05

And that's the job that our shepherds are failed at. Like, they've failed at their job. And because they can't identify— like,

01:10:13

I think the worst cardinal crime is to identify a wolf. But the thing is, if you don't know any wolves, like, please forgive me if I think that you're not a good shepherd.

01:10:24

Because, like, you know, Paul tells us, Jesus tells us, you know, Jesus says after his departure, savage wolves will come and not spare the flock.

01:10:32

And during the time of the apostles, they came, you know, and they were there and they're still here and they're all over the place.

01:10:38

And, like, if you can't name any, then you're not doing your job.

01:10:44

But, like, that's one of the primary jobs of the pastor is to teach and to protect against, you know, these savage wolves that are not sparing the flock.

01:10:53

And if you, you know, if you don't have a place for that, then you need a new job.

01:11:01

Right. Now, you mentioned the SBC, you know, and Tom Askell. He's claiming that there are really bad doctrines being brought in, and there's really big issues.

01:11:15

I know that he's said those things. I've heard him say those things. But then at the same time, you know, he's very careful about, you know, calling these people brothers still, even though they're bringing in destructive heresies and whatever else.

01:11:33

So thinking about the SBC in particular, you know, especially in light of the recent, you know,

01:11:42

House Bill 813 in Louisiana and an abortion abolition bill, basically.

01:11:50

And you have the SBC, ERLC going in and lobbying with 70 other quote -unquote pro -life organizations against the bill.

01:12:08

I mean, do you think that if we're talking about, you know, quote -unquote emotional abuse, you know, talking about the way that Jesus talks about false teachers, do you think at that point it's time to say, all right, there's a lot of SBC leaders that need to be counted in that group?

01:12:32

If they can't even come out. I mean, that need to be emotionally abused is what you're saying? That need to be emotionally abused.

01:12:37

If they can't even come out and say, hey, you know what? A woman who hires an assassin to murder her unborn baby is guilty.

01:12:45

If they can't say that, then do they need to be emotionally abused as well? Well, let me use that to make a comment, which is why this is so funny.

01:12:57

Like, this is a, I don't mean funny like ha -ha. I mean like funny as in like humorous.

01:13:03

Like this is a, like these same leaders are the ones who treat, like they're like circus monkeys.

01:13:11

They come along and they treat every single accusation of abuse with the utmost seriousness. But then you're talking about like something, like can you think of anything that should be called abuse more than like sticking a pair of forceps up into a woman and dismembering an unborn baby?

01:13:34

I mean, abuse is putting it light. I mean, that's putting it light, you know? But like you can, like these white knights for abuse, right?

01:13:42

Like these individuals who are just like knights in shining armor there to protect the victim.

01:13:48

It's like there's like literal victims here that are being dismembered and like having their brains sucked out of their skull cavity by these psychopaths.

01:13:58

And like if you cared so much about abuse, you would prosecute the women who were hiring those hitmen to do that.

01:14:08

Yeah, you'd be falling all over yourself to do it. Can you imagine, like just think about like those individuals, the

01:14:15

ARLC and the SBC leaders who are writing articles on that. Can you imagine like if a live black person in the

01:14:25

South were to be tied down and dismembered by a group of white guys in the news and to have his brain sucked out of his head?

01:14:36

And like can you imagine what would happen if like the men were to come along and say, hey, we didn't do it ourself, we just hired a group of people to do it and we didn't know that this black guy was a human.

01:14:54

We didn't know that they were human and we didn't do it ourself. So nothing should happen to us, right?

01:15:01

Like nothing should happen to us because we didn't know he was human and we didn't do it ourself, right?

01:15:06

But then that's the kind of case that's being made with women in the case of abortion.

01:15:12

It's like I didn't know it was a baby and I didn't do it myself. I just hired someone to do it. It's like that doesn't fit.

01:15:19

But then what you know that like you're dealing in clown world where like those same evangelical leaders, they would be tweeting nonstop about how unjust and how wrong that is and like you hang those guys like this is white supremacy that must be stopped at all costs.

01:15:36

They've already done that. They've already done that. I know but I mean it's just like we're not being serious.

01:15:41

We're not being morally serious here. Like we're posturing for a culture that demands us to like consider certain things to be outrageous and then to ignore others.

01:15:55

And like what's actually happening is we're bought. Like we're bought. Like our loyalties are compromised and they're bought.

01:16:00

And that's what's happening. And so like so when you hear the word abuse, all these big name evangelicals, they're trained to think,

01:16:08

I have to respond like a circus monkey that no matter what it is, no matter what we're even saying, there's a script

01:16:15

I have to follow that's written for me. And the same thing happens in ethnic things but then related to the abortion things.

01:16:21

It's like you say all day long, hey, I'm pro -life, but you don't believe it. And everyone knows you don't believe it. And the unbelievers don't know you.

01:16:28

They know you don't believe it because if you did, if you really thought it was what it was, you would respond the same way if that was an adult live black person.

01:16:38

Right. Yeah. You would know how to respond if it was an adult live black person. There would be no lack of moral clarity.

01:16:45

There would be none of these games that you're playing. You would know what to do. There'd be no nuance.

01:16:50

No nuance. No winsomeness. No whimsy, nothing. No not ideal for human flourishing going on.

01:16:58

Like this is a moral evil, right? Right.

01:17:04

And so it has to be stopped and penalized. But one of the most ridiculous things about that stupid abortion argument is, it's just like, we did an episode on that, but I mean it's just like if you literally make a law that says, woman, if you hire a hitman to kill your unborn baby, you're going to be prosecuted.

01:17:25

You're not prosecuting retroactively. You're going forward. That would train, like the law would have the purpose of training individuals for morality.

01:17:35

It'd be a curve towards immorality, as Calvin's third use of the law talks about. It would be a curve at that point in the

01:17:40

Bible talks about, like that all would hear and fear and never again do such wickedness. At that point, you would have a chance through the law to provide moral clarity to a situation.

01:17:48

Meaning, if there was any doubt that this is a human, that law has decided it's a human, so you can't do it anymore.

01:17:55

You know? Right. And so then at that point, if you knowledgeably do it, you can't claim that you didn't know anymore.

01:18:07

The law has provided the moral clarity for you. That's the point. Right. Well, I think that's probably, at least for me, a good place to start wrapping it up.

01:18:19

Was there anything that you wanted to mention that maybe we hadn't covered yet?

01:18:25

Or even just recap, if you want. Yeah. I think, as you're thinking about this kind of subject, I think the best thing we can do with the word abuse is just to put a moratorium on the word, use different words, and try to be intentionally biblical in the words that you're using, and use biblical words in biblical categories.

01:18:43

So if you're talking about sex abuse, what are you talking about? You're talking about rape. You're talking about fornication. You're talking about adultery.

01:18:49

What are we talking about? Right? Are you talking about forced intercourse?

01:18:56

What are you talking about? Use biblical terms. Talk the way the

01:19:02

Bible talks. Did the man seize the woman by force, hold her down, and lay with her?

01:19:07

Is that what we're talking about? Is it forced copulation? What are we saying? Is it rape?

01:19:13

Is it murder? Is it rape? Is it adultery? Is it fornication? Is it consensual? What is it?

01:19:19

Use biblical terms. If you're talking about physical abuse, what are we talking about? Define what you're saying.

01:19:24

Quit using physical abuse. Are you talking about he hit you? Are you talking about he pushed you?

01:19:29

What did he do? Right? Did he strike you, as the Bible would say? Did she strike you?

01:19:36

Did she throw something at you? What are we saying? Use different words. If you're talking about verbal, emotional abuse, what are we saying?

01:19:42

Were you yelled at? Were you insulted? Were you reviled over a long period of time?

01:19:48

Were you intimidated? What are we saying? Were you coerced into a specific action?

01:19:57

What are we saying? What are the moral categories that we're using? What was the situation? What was the circumstance?

01:20:04

Ask those basic questions. I think as we're ministering to people in that kind of scenario, you have to figure out on a case -by -case basis, how do you respond to that?

01:20:14

Is it morally justified? Is it unmorally justified? Is this a case of someone saying something you didn't like, like deadnaming you, right?

01:20:25

That was right and was faithful. What are we saying? Use biblical language.

01:20:32

Then treat it, think through. I think if you could just take that word out of it, it takes away a certain expectation of how you respond to it, and then you can handle on a case -by -case basis what is the appropriate scenario and situation that you're talking about.

01:20:50

I think the best thing we can do is just quit using the word. Refuse to use it. I wish our evangelical leaders would just refuse to use that word and use different words.

01:21:00

Right. Well, yeah. Hopefully, guys, this has been a pretty helpful episode for you in terms of understanding some of these things and knowing how to navigate these situations because they're just, in this day and age,

01:21:17

I mean, you're just going to run into people who make all sorts of different claims, and it can be pretty confusing knowing, how do

01:21:25

I navigate these situations in a way that honors the

01:21:31

Lord and in a way that lets me do the most loving thing for the people around me, even if they don't feel like it's the most loving thing that you're doing for them.

01:21:44

Hopefully, this has been a helpful conversation for you that blesses you guys and does equip you for these conversations for these works in ministry.

01:21:56

So we want to thank all you guys for listening and supporting us, and we look forward to having you on the next one.

01:22:03

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

01:22:08

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01:22:17

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01:22:26

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01:22:37

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